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Type 46 MR MOIKABI, AMNESTY HEARINGS
Starting Date 27 March 1997
Names M J MOIKABI
Mr Chairman and members of the Committee before I request that the applicant takes an oath, I want to inform the Committee as follows pertaining to this applicant. That the applicant was enroled last year in the Kroonstad hearings whereat he formally appeared and he was represented by Mr Oupa Matsepe, together with the other applicants. And at that hearing his application, I don't know which word to use, either was removed from the roll or withdrawn, but it did happen in Kroonstad. Mr Chairman as I went through the application, the application form itself, and the statement made by the applicant, the applicant is denying involvement in this whole thing. But with that background I did canvass this point with him and the fact that it was withdrawn first in Kroonstad and in this application again it is a denial. I've made him aware of the provisions of the enabling Act in the presence of Mr Matsepe who is present here today, and I have asked him to remain in attendance to confirm that this is what transpired between me and the applicant, and if he confirms or if the Committee doesn't deem it necessary for him to confirm I would like to leave this in the hands of the Committee because I tried to explain to the applicant the implications hereof. Thank you.
MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman I must admit during lunchtime he would, he was going to say that he was present, but I made him aware that we have got to be honest with the Committee, Mr Matsepe can confirm that.
MR MOIKABI: In regard to my application we have come before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to explain about the truth which I know and how I am affected by this murder and what has put me in prison.
MR MOIKABI: I understand but I wanted to show something under my personal circumstances, and before the Truth and Reconciliation, that very shortly, that you should know me what kind of a person I am.
MR MOIKABI: .... leader who was Veks Mayekiso. In that meeting we were supposed to talk about the civic issues. Comrade Mayekiso informed us about the killing of White people where he said the organisation is not responsible and BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE
it's distancing itself from this, that act. We as the residents we were surprised by this incident, as White people were seen as people who were coming closer to the Black people. On that day it was heard on the radio that two people were arrested and investigations are still going on. In regard to my arrest ...(intervention)
JUDGE WILSON: We have heard what you say the residents felt after the killing, that is not relevant towards the application for amnesty. We are sitting here as a Committee to decide applications for amnesty and I do not think it is in any way relevant to our function to continue to hear what you have to say about your feelings after the killings became known. We appreciate that you people found it unpleasant. I think that is sufficient. Is there anything of any importance you have to say?
JUDGE MGOEPE: Just - sorry let me interrupt you, you see you, precisely because you were not, strictly speaking you are not an applicant before us, you did not take an oath, you remember that, you didn't take an oath. And if you are going to go on and say things which may possibly prejudice other applicants you must decide whether you want to be a witness in this case, take an oath and be cross-examined because you can't just go on saying things which possibly may prejudice other applicants when in fact you are not an
applicant before us. You can't just say things for the sake of saying things, do you understand that? We have people who have applied here for amnesty and if you want to get into - you must decide whether you want to be a witness, then take an oath and then those other people must come and cross-examine you where they do not agree with you, because you are not an applicant strictly speaking. We thought we were going to give you the opportunity to say a few things and summarise yourself, but you seem to be going into the details of the incident. Now you must decide whether you just want to summarise the point that you want to make or you are going to be a witness and then we must make you take an oath so that the other applicants can cross-examine you, because some of the things which you said may possibly prejudice the applicants before us.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Moikabi could I try to explain to you. The Act says if you've committed an offence or - and that offence was committed with a political motive, then you could ask for amnesty. But if you've done nothing then you couldn't have done it with a political motive where a murder is concerned. Now if you could tell us by doing nothing, what did you want to achieve politically?
anything about what happened on the Saturday, what is it you now wish to give evidence about? Don't tell me the whole thing, summarise briefly what it is you wish to give evidence about and why you think it important we should hear it.
JUDGE MGOEPE: Well will that be of comfort to you if you we ask you to give it to us then and - or make copies and give those copies to us? Because we, there are people who are waiting to have their applications heard, and who admit that they committed these offences, who are within ambit of this Act and they are anxiously waiting on us to call on them to come and testify, people who were there when these things happened. There isn't such a great need for us to listen to somebody who wants to tell us about something
MR MOIKABI: What I wanted to explain to testify about was, it is true that I was not present, but the situation surrounding this killing I know, truly but I don't know about the killing, I know about the situations leading towards the killing, I know the situation of where I am staying.
MR MATSEPE: Mr Chairman if I could explain, I was telephonically instructed by the Legal Aid Board to appear on behalf of Moikabi today and indeed after consultations I realised that I am in this predicament, I can't go on with this application, I advised him as such and I confirm what Advocate Mpshe has indicated to the Committee and I just wanted to be excused.