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Type AMNESTY HEARING
Starting Date 08 September 1998
Location CAPE TOWN
Names ANDILE SHICEKA
Matter STAKES RESTAURANT ATTACK
MR ARENDSE: Now you had already gone into exile in 1989, you underwent military training there, would it be correct to say that you at that stage, in April 1992 when you went to the Transkei, you were already regarded as an APLA soldier or combatant?
MR ARENDSE: Now, you are applying - or let's just for the record, you had also been involved in the Newcastle Crazy Beat Disco incident and you applied for amnesty and you were granted amnesty in respect of that incident, is that correct?
MR ARENDSE: You had gone from exile into Transkei, at what stage did you then get to Cape Town? How did you get to Cape Town? Did you come so out of your own or did someone tell you to come here to Cape Town?
MR SHICEKA: I cannot confirm nor can I deny because what happens most times, at the time when they were involved with Mzala, as they called Mzala, I was not there. So most of the times comrades use combat names. I would not know whether it was Power because at the time they were talking with him I was not there.
MR ARENDSE: Was that a general instruction or did he specifically say to you you must attack Khayelitsha Station, Claremont restaurant, Heidelberg Tavern or whatever? In other words, did he send you here with specific targets in mind or was the instruction to you just a general one?
MR SHICEKA: No, he found us there because when we got there we found ladies and a number of people. When we got there we asked as to whether he was there and we were told that no, he was not there but he was soon to arrive, and he did. In a couple of minutes time, it should be less than one hour, he did arrive.
MR SHICEKA: I told him as to what our mission was because when I left there having talked with Power, he told me that I was going to meet Tanda, whom I then met and I told him what the plan was. We stayed at April Close Street for some days until we left.
MR SHICEKA: It was DK. He came with information that there were policemen at the station, let us go there an carry out an operation. After that what happened, I told him at this time at the station there are a lot of people and if we can go there right now a lot of people could get hurt who were African, so can we not use another time later because it was at about sevenish, late, or eight. I told him we could not go there then, we had to wait a little so that we can make sure that no people get affected, that the ordinary public is not affected.
MR SHICEKA: Shauna is another member. You see when I was staying at Tembani, I stayed for some few days there. As I saw that our security at that house was not safe, how, that house belonged to a PAC member. A lot of PAC members used to visit that house and sometimes we would hold meetings.
I then decided that we must leave this house because at the end of the day we would be caught. That is where I had to meet Shauna, a person that I know as a person who stays here in Cape Town. We used to be at school together. That is the person I approached. When I approached him we then left that house. Other people - I had to stay at Shauna and others had to find their own places, places I had already secured.
MR SHICEKA: We went there. When we got there at the ...[indistinct] Station, it has a bush area. We stayed behind those bushes and we sent DK to go again and to check whether those policemen are still there. DK did go there, he went to look. When he returned he ...[indistinct] all the things are okay.
When we went there we saw someone running. Apparently he saw us when we went up holding weapons. Apparently when he ran towards the other policemen he was going to report that there are people who are coming to attack them.
When we reached the area it was some time after he had gone in and we saw that that policeman was inside a room. The door of the room was closed. We shot through the door. What happened was, the door was locked and we could not go into that room. We withdrew after having shot through that door.
MR SHICEKA: No, I cannot confirm that I know that they went into that room but what DK came to tell us after having checked was that those policemen were inside that room. When we went to go and attack there, when we got there the door was closed. Apparently that person who had ran had also gone into that room. That is when we started shooting through that door.
MR SHICEKA: Yes, I shot. After having received information that there were policemen in that room, and the person had told us so was my own comrade whom I trusted. That he told us that there were policemen was my reason why I went to go and attack there.
MR SHICEKA: I went to Transkei firstly to go and explain what happened here at Khayelitsha Station, to Power as the member of the High Command, that is mistake has happened. After that I moved from Transkei to Cape Town.
MR ARENDSE: When you were given this instruction, did you ask any questions? Did you say: "But you know, should we just attack any white people, are all the same, are they all bad"? Just to use an example, Joe Slovo may have been one of these white people congregating with other white people. Did you question the instruction at all?
MR ARENDSE: Because it seems to me that, and you must correct me if I'm wrong here, this order or instruction now differs from the previous one where you are attacking the police, army and the purpose being to disarm them and to get arms and ammunition, is that right? Is this now a different instruction?
White people because of their position materially, being oppressed by them. Nobody knows in this meeting that white people oppressed us, everyone knows so. You could then not be able to determine who is bad or who is not bad. All of them stay in the same place. I do not see any difference.
MR ARENDSE: Did you go to the restaurant just after he told you that he had identified the restaurant as a target or was it only later that you went? Did you go that same day or did you go the following day or the following week?
MR SHICEKA: We used public transport to check it out. I too saw that it was a proper place. We went inside and bought tobacco and I saw white people frequent the place. We went back with the intent that at night we would return.
MR SHICEKA: After that he returned and said everything is okay. When he did so I said: "Let's go ...[indistinct]. We went inside, myself and Scorpion stood at the door. We did not go inside, we stood at the doors, we shot inside. After having done so we went back to our car, we drove back to Shauna's place.
MR SHICEKA: DK had already checked that everything is okay. When we went there we did not go to check again, we went there to shoot. As to who was inside, we knew that it was white people and we had gone there to shoot them.
MR SHICEKA: We would achieve these aims and objectives in this fashion: A white person is an oppressor, nobody does not know this then. If we hit white people hard, clearly white people are going to go to their leaders, de Klerk or whoever was leading them in parliament and say: "Gents you can see it is difficult, these people are attacking us, please give the land back to its own people". We must put pressure on the white public to show that we are very serious about what we want.
MR ARENDSE: So would it be correct to say then that it is not as if that evening or during that operation you were going to immediately achieve your objective, but it was a form of applying pressure on the government of the day, the apartheid government of the day? You're nodding, the machine can't pick up your - what is your answer to that?
MR ARENDSE: Would it be correct to say that operation that day or that night, you weren't going to achieve your objectives immediately. The operation was a form of applying pressure on the apartheid government of the day, for them to realise that you are serious about liberating the black masses?
MR ARENDSE: If I may just deal with this also. There were also a number of attacks around that period, St James, Heidelberg, the Newcastle Disco, was that part of a pattern? Was that part of the same pattern of attacks that were now being launched by APLA?
MR SHICEKA: No, I was not arrested for this case. What happened I was arrested for the one at Newcastle and the police as a further charge, charged me for the one at Claremont. They charged me for the one at Claremont but through the lack of evidence the case was withdrawn.
MR ARENDSE: Just in retrospect. Now it's 1998 in September and this attack happened in December of 1992, how do you now feel about what happened, about the attack? And that it could have been worse, a number of people could have been killed as a result of the attack.
MR SHICEKA: We do not complain today about that. What happens, for the part of reconciliation, let us forgive each other and not accuse each other about this or that. All wars are not exciting because people die, especially those who are not guilty. Those who are involved as perpetrators do not die. This is very sad. I feel very sad. What could we do? We could not allow our people getting killed whilst we were there and allow ...[intervention]
MR ARENDSE: The people who were in the restaurant at the time - Mr Chairman, just for the record, I'm referring not to page number 2 of the bundle, but the second page after the index of your bundle. There is a short summary of the attack and there is also a list of names.
It will be said that these people whose names appear here as victims, Mr Malcolm Visser, owner of the restaurant, Lizette Theunissen, Dennis Smith, Jason Collie, Alan Williams, Amanda Warner, that these persons were innocent and unarmed. You were armed with an AK47 or with an R4 rifle, whatever it was, standing in front of a restaurant or shooting at them. Do you want to comment, that the attack was launched on innocent unarmed people, white people?
MR SHICEKA: What I can say is that a white person, all of them, all of them who underwent compulsory military training. When people say they are innocent civilians I may not understand, because when you undergo military training that person is a complete soldier.
What I want to say in relation to what is written there, all of those people must come together with us and let us talk reconciliation so that what happened in the years past can never happen again, and all of us build our country together.
MR ARENDSE: Now Chairperson, I take it that by now you have a copy of this affidavit in front of you, it's by Amanda Warner. She is represented here today. It looks like the date is 7, at the back here: 7.09.1998, I'm not sure. 7 September '98 ja, is the date of this affidavit.
MR ARENDSE: Now I just want to raise a few things with you in the affidavit. It appears from this affidavit, and we've got no reason to question the factual correctness of it Chairperson, there are a number of submissions, conclusions and so on. ...[intervention]
MR ARENDSE: Yes, but it would appear, and we accept, that she was a waitress on the evening of the 26th of December 1992, at this restaurant. She says that she was sitting in the restaurant round about 10H30 when she heard a series of explosions. Now she had to help a number of people who had apparently got injured as a result of the attack, including Mr Visser who is the owner of the restaurant.
Now what I want to ask you about is, she says she suffers or she suffered severe emotional trauma as a result of this attack and she also says that she harbours a fear that her attackers, which would include you, would hunt her down and kill her. Do you want to comment on that? She's afraid that you will hunt her down and kill her.
MR ARENDSE: She said that is why she is now living in the United Kingdom, just as a matter of interest. Now she opposes your application for amnesty on a number of grounds, and I just want to run through them with you. She says that what you did, the act which you perpetrated that night, was not a good faith act associated with a political objective. Do you want to comment on that?
MR ARENDSE: Sorry, just before you - to put it another way around, this was a purely criminal act. You decided with your cronies to go there, open up fire and to shoot them. This has got nothing to do with politics, it has nothing to do with the conflicts of the past. That is what she is saying.
When she says it was a simple criminal act from the PAC principles, the PAC do not hate white people. They believe that there is only one race, the human race. We did not hit white people because we hate them. There is only one thing we wanted from them, to allow us freedom to respect human beings, us as human beings. We did not hit them because we hated them. We do not hate white people because they are white, even from PAC principles. What happened is that they did not recognise us as human beings.
MR ARENDSE: Now you have already told us that you were a member of the PAC and of APLA, but she says that you did not commit this particular offence in furtherance of your struggle against the state. This was an attack on innocent unarmed civilians and had nothing to do with your struggle against the state at the time.
MR SHICEKA: This we did as members of APLA. APLA has accepted responsibility for the operation. In your thoughts, how can I go and kill people without anticipating any gains? I cannot move from Transkei and go and shoot people I do not know just for the fun of it. All of this was planned by APLA and us as operatives of APLA executed that job.
MR ARENDSE: Just to take your last point, you say you executed this job. Did you have reason to believe that the job that you were carrying out was within the scope of your duties as an APLA soldier, as an APLA combatant? Because she also claims that you did not have reasonable grounds to believe that you were doing this within the scope of your job as a combatant.
MR SHICEKA: I am an APLA soldier, I did this, I'm not denying anything. I was only executing the orders that were given to me as a disciplined member of APLA. You carry an order as it is and then you ask questions later.
MR ARENDSE: Then she also goes on to say that you also - the offence in respect of which you are applying for amnesty, this is the Claremont restaurant, cannot be associated with a political objective because firstly she says you were motivated by malice and a hatred of white people in general.
MR SHICEKA: We never hated white people, we regarded them as human beings like us but we had a problem in terms of their attitude, they were oppressing the Africans. We were joining the political organisations so as to liberate the Africans.
We were to fight with the government to show the government that we don't like the manner in which we were being regarded. That doesn't imply that we hated white people. You can also find that in our preamble of the PAC, that all of us belonged to one race and that is the human race. We never hated white people, we hated oppression. No-one like oppression in the whole world.
MR SHICEKA: APLA only suspended its armed struggle on the 16th of January 1994. The operation took place in 1992. That proves that we were in the battle with the whites up until the time when the armed struggle was suspended.
MR ARENDSE: She also claims that the offence wasn't even directed primarily at white people because half of the people who worked at the restaurant were 50% black. She doesn't say, interesting enough, how many white people were in the restaurant. I take it that most people who work at any place are mostly black. Do you want to comment on that? Did you take into account that there were not only white people there but there were also black people there, whether they were working there or whether they were eating there?
MR SHICEKA: That restaurant at Claremont was frequented by white people. We targeted it because we knew that it was frequented by white people. Even the other places that were frequented by white people were being hit. We couldn't hit all of them all at once. On that particular day we identified it as our target and that is why we had to hit that restaurant.
MR SHICEKA: I have a question now. How did APLA claim the responsibility of that operation, if it wasn't approved by APLA? How can APLA claim responsibility? That operation was claimed under the code name Kambambata. If she says that that was not approved by APLA, I don't know what that means because I know that APLA claimed responsibility.
MR ARENDSE: She also alleges that you gained personally from this, from the commission of this offence because you were paid R1 000, R150 of which you spent on alcohol in a shebeen and also to buy clothes.
MR SHICEKA: We got R1 000 from Transkei. When we were leaving Transkei we were given that money to use it for transport because if you have to take a bus you have to pay and buy food. We were not given R1 000 because we were hired, we were not mercenaries. APLA was not a mercenary organisation. We were given that money so that we don't encounter problems on the way. We needed transport, we needed money to pay the bus and buy food until we reach our destination safely.
MR ARENDSE: Now I don't think it's quite legitimate, but let me ask you anyway. She seems to equate what you did then in December 1992, she seems to equate that with what has been happening recently, for example at Planet Hollywood and some other such, what is regarded as terrorist attacks. Are they the same?
MR SHICEKA: In that there is a difference between a terrorist and a guerilla fighter. I'm not a terrorist, I'm an indigenous South African and I'm a guerilla fighter. For me to liberate the African people from the oppressors I have to come to the people who were born in South Africa.
What happened in Plant Hollywood, as you call it, it is a terrorism action. It is about people who live somewhere else and they go to another place and terrorise people there. I'm not a terrorist, I'm a guerilla fighter. As I've told you, there is a difference between the two. The people who committed that act in the Plant Hollywood, they've got their own problems with America and of which we are, I'm not part of that, I'm just a guerilla fighter. I have all the rights to fight for liberation, to fight for liberation of the African people.
MR SHICEKA: I'm a member of the airforce, I have white friends and they accept me as much as I accept them. In most places you will find white people visiting us and even in Guguletu you will find white people there visiting friends, there are not problems but previously that never used to be the case. Whether we like it or not we have problems but today it looks like everyone is happy. The situation is different from the previous one.
MR ARENDSE: Just lastly, you - I may have dealt with it but let me just, just in case I didn't, she says that you were, you just did this out of spite. You were just spiteful to take this gun, stand in front of a restaurant and just shoot at them. It's just because it was a white person that you did this out of spite.
MR SHICEKA: I'm a full member of PAC. I am a member of PAC and as a member of PAC, PAC doesn't hate white people. I also don't hate white people. A white person is a human being just like myself. The problem that we had was this, one was the oppressor and the other one was the oppressed. I was part of those who were oppressed.
For me to free myself from this oppression, I had no alternative, I had to free myself. If I hated white men, why can't I kill them right now? I'm staying with them, we have friends, we do things together, how do I hate a white person? He is also a human being. I don't hate a white man.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARNER: Andile, when you got to Cape Town, you said you told the other members what your mission was and you told them what your plan was, what was that? What was your plan that you'd come down from Transkei with? What were the details of your plan?
MR WARNER: You were asked when you arrived in Cape Town, who was there? You said there was Thabo, DK and Chicken Licken. Then you were asked: "What happened after that"?, and you said that you told those people what their mission was and you also told them what your plan was. Now I'm asking you what was your plan.
MR SHICEKA: I had one plan, to execute orders that were given to me. Together with all those people who were in my company we had one purpose, no-one had a different purpose because whatever I was going to do I was going to do it with those people.
MR WARNER: I'm sorry I still don't understand what it was that you told them that you were, you briefed them on what you were going to do, you briefed them on what your instructions were from the High Command, what were those instructions, what did you tell them you were going to do?
MR WARNER: A little while after that you were asked: "Who planned the train attack"? and you said that is was DK. You went on to say that DK had said that you must, that it was a good idea for you to attack the train station, and the reason he gave for that was that there were policemen there, in other words, there was a target for you there, the policemen were there, is that correct?
MR WARNER: You then said to him that you didn't want to do it at the time of the day which he had suggested and your reason for that was that you did not want to hurt innocent civilian African people, is that correct?
MR WARNER: If I can just draw your attention to the station attack. You went on to say that you went to attack the station and your purpose in attacking the station was to attack and disarm the policemen, is that correct?
MR WARNER: You see what I am seeing here, from what we have heard today, is a common thread in that it would appear that the APLA attacks which we have heard about today have all, with the exception of this one, had as their aim the acquiring of weapons for APLA, would you agree with that?
MR WARNER: Okay. Toady we've heard applications in terms of a number of offences, applications for amnesty. I'm putting it to you that the common thread in all of those application, with the exception of this one, is that the purpose behind them was to attack police and military installations in order to acquire weapons to arm APLA soldiers, is that correct?
MR WARNER: Okay. Would you agree with me that you carried out two operations in Cape Town in December of 1992? The first one, what was the purpose of that one, the direct purpose, the attack on the police at the Khayelitsha station? What was the main purpose of that attack?
MR WARNER: But there was also a further reason why you viewed the operation as being unsuccessful, isn't there? You viewed it as being unsuccessful because you killed an innocent person instead of a policeman, is that correct as well?
MR WARNER: Okay. In the police station attack, sorry, the train station attack, you fired through a locked door. Now you knew there were people inside there, you thought they were policemen, did you know as a fact that they were all white people or black people or policemen? You didn't know that, so what I'm putting to you is that there may well have been a white person in there. If that white person had got killed, would you then have changed your opinion as to whether the attack was successful or not?
MR WARNER: Thank you. You also went on to state that your main reason for attacking the room as such, was that you believed, you genuinely believed and had no reason to disbelieve that there were policemen inside the room. Do I understand that correct?
MR WARNER: Mr Chairman, I don't know if I have the same bundle as the Committee but I have a page 8, a statement made by Andile, and the surname appears to be spelt incorrectly, and in brackets (Thabo).
MR WARNER: I'd now like to turn to your statement which you made, your affidavit. In paragraph 6.1 thereof you said that Power, also known as Mzala, gave you orders to come to Cape Town and carry on operations in which you were to attack members of the then racist South African Police, South African Defence Force and other white people. You said that you were told that the purpose was to take the war to white areas and to steal by force weapons from the police and from members of the Defence Force, is that correct?
MR WARNER: In your evidence which you gave earlier on today you mentioned something which differs from that affidavit in that you said you were ordered to attack places where white people congregated. Could you explain why you didn't word it in that way in your affidavit?
MR WARNER: I'd like to put it to you that what your commander actually told you was that you were to come and attack white members of the South African Police and white members of the South African Defence Force. What is your comment on that?
MR SHICEKA: If you take a look at this statement, at 6.1 number 6, it is written there that in 1992 a member known as Power or generally known as Mzala gave me an order to carry operations in Cape Town where I was to attack racist South African Police and South African Defence Force and other white people. He didn't mention that I have to hit only South African Defence Force and South African Police alone. It is added there: "and white people".
MR SHICEKA: I am not trying to say that, because now when you are talking to me you are talking about two things only, the SADF and SAP, you omit the third one and that is why I read all of that portion there.
MR WARNER: Mr Chair, what I would like to put to the applicant is that this part about attacking white people generally is something which he conceived on his own and that that was never part of his orders, it was something he took upon himself. And if one looks at the generality of that statement, it seems unlikely that he would be given such a wide and generalised order or that that would fulfil the meaning of the word: "order".
CHAIRPERSON: You'll recall his evidence where he said the attack on all whites because all whites underwent compulsory military training. So the direction was that all whites because they all underwent military training. Do you recall that sentence in his evidence?
Are you not aware that female white persons were not obliged to do compulsory military training, firstly. Secondly, that full-time students did not do compulsory military training and thirdly, that the persons working at that particular restaurant were all either female or full-time students, what is your comment on that?
CHAIRPERSON: Which is strictly speaking not correct, is it? There was a woman who is a waitress working in that place, at the restaurant. You said: "all whites underwent military training". That is a general statement and I'm sure you must concede that that is not what you intend to convey or is it?
MR WARNER: So you Sir, as an APLA soldier, not only a soldier but also a commander of your unit knew your enemy so badly that you were under the mistaken belief that your enemy was 50% female, how can that be?
MR WARNER: Sir, isn't that one of the characteristics of racism, is that a particular group of people are seen as being all the same just because they are white? In other words, just because they are white they all had military training, they were all oppressors, is that not racist?
MR WARNER: Okay, thank you. On the night when you went to see this particular restaurant, to attack the restaurant, you said just now that you first went there earlier in the day and checked the place out and decided that it was a good target. It would appear that DK was a subordinate to you and you first had to approve the target, is that correct?
MR SHICEKA: I'm a commander and DK is a commissar. In APLA we didn't operate as individuals, we operated collectively. I can also select a target and bring it to them and we discuss about this target but the last person to take the final decision is myself, the commander. That is why when DK came to me and he told me to go to the restaurant I went to that restaurant also and I confirmed and I approved that this is a real target, and late in the evening we went there to hit the restaurant.
MR WARNER: It is my information and I put it to you that there were, as alleged in the affidavit, at least 50% of the staff members were actually black and not white. It so happens that at the time of the attack the black staff had for some or other reason left earlier than they usually do. Was this part of the plan, was this actually organised, that the black staff would not be there?
MR WARNER: Okay, I accept that there was no warning. Now what I put to you is that you went there earlier in the day during the daytime and you said that you went inside and bought tobacco, by the way, what tobacco was it that you bought?
MR SHICEKA: I can't remember, the reason being this, I don't smoke. I went inside, I bought something. Even if I wasn't going to use that but I bought it because I wanted to check thoroughly. Even if I had thrown that cigarette away but I went there to check inside. For me to check inside I had to do something, I had to pretend as if I was buying something.
MR WARNER: Then I want to ask you, when you went inside you looked around, what did you see, who was in the restaurant at the time you looked around to see what sort of people frequented that restaurant?
MR SHICEKA: Have you been to that restaurant, because I want to explain to you so that you can get a proper picture. It's next to the robots. As DK was driving we stopped next to it and I alighted from the vehicle and I went inside, I bought tobacco. There's a first street, I'm not sure whether it is a pre-school but there is something there next to the restaurant.
MR WARNER: Can I show you a map of the two roads and you can perhaps draw with a pen on there where the car parked and where the restaurant is. If I can show that to you. Could you just make the marks on both please. Could you put an "A" for where the car was parked and a "B" for where the restaurant is please.
MR SHICEKA: ...[no English translation] I can see the Landsdowne Road. Will you please come closer to me because I want to be sure, I want to tick at the right place. Will you please come closer to me because I can't see where the robot is here.
MR WARNER: I believe that it may be. I wish to point out the, whether the vehicle passed the restaurant first or whether it went through the back street, because from where the vehicle was, I believe, parked ...[intervention]
MR WARNER: I put it to you then that your colleague, your comrade, did not go to the Stake's Restaurant to check the restaurant out because apparently, according to the police report, somebody came and bought cigarettes at the shop next door. Now can you tell us, this restaurant, was it right on the corner or was the shop(?) next to the shop on the corner?
MR SHICEKA: There is a shop at the corner with a machine. The restaurant was next to the shop. There is a shop at - the fist building is a shop and there is a restaurant, and there's only a passage where one can park a car. There is nothing after the restaurant.
MR WARNER: Okay, thank you. No further questions on that point. Your counsel said that it was not possible for, or you said that it was not possible for APLA not to have known about this operation beforehand because they approved it afterwards.
Now I put it to you that that doesn't follow. APLA approved the operation after you reported it to Power. I put it to you that APLA was not aware prior to this operation, that you were going to attack the restaurant or this particular restaurant.
MR SHICEKA: You say APLA didn't knowledge prior. Let me explain this to you. If you are given an order and you are told what type of targets are to be attacked, and then what will happen thereafter, I won't say before an attack today, I won't tell people that I'm going to attack people before that could take place. What if that information will land to the wrong hands, will land to the enemies before the attack.
APLA has given me a target. What I'm supposed to do is to execute the orders and report after the operation. They know very well everything about my whereabouts, they know very well that I'm involved in an operation. Even if I hid this or that, they know very well that the order was given but I can't tell people beforehand. I can't tell Mzala, what if Mzala has changed his mind and now he's collaborating with the enemy and we would be killed during the operation? That means that I'll never tell before the attack, I will never tell the people before the attack.
CHAIRPERSON: I think there were general instructions and the commander of a unit then selects the target. The entire organisation of APLA doesn't select specific targets and say go and hit this target or the other, they are given general instructions and the commander then picks the target. That is how I understand the evidence to be.
MR WARNER: I want to ask you also, this attack on the restaurant, is it not true that this was your first attack on a civilian or so-called soft target? Your attacks prior to that had all been on military installations, is that not correct?
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, they said that they don't draw a distinction. In other words, as far as APLA is concerned, they don't say: "We will only attack hard targets, military targets, we will not attack soft targets". They don't draw that distinction. They're not saying that there is no distinction, they don't draw that distinction. That is as I understand it.
MR WARNER: So can I understand that it follows from that, that as an APLA soldier, he himself did not feel that this was, there was any significance whatsoever in that this was his first soft target? Is that how we should understand it?
CHAIRPERSON: Listen carefully please. You attacked police stations, you attacked policemen at railway stations, with a view to getting their arms, that's one kind of activity. Now you are attacking a restaurant, not to get guns from the people but just to attack the people. In your mind, counsel wants to know, did you not have any difficulty in drawing a distinction that you're attacking unarmed people in a restaurant, as distinct from attacking policemen and soldiers?
"to carry out operations in which I was to attack members of the then racist South African Police, SANDF and other white people. The purpose was to take the war to white areas and steel by force weapons from the police and members of the Defence Force"
Now in your written application on page 20 of the bundle you also say that comrade, and I'm referring to paragraph 11(b), there's a question: "If so, state particulars of such an order and the persons who gave you the order". You say:
"Comrade Mzala issued the order to take the war to the white areas and to destroy the state machinery"
MR WARNER: Sir, it is no longer there. Apparently the owner went bankrupt as a result of crippling medical expenses following the act. There is another restaurant in its place. This is on the corner of Landsdowne Road and Belvedere Road. I have a map if the Commission would like to have sight of such.