ON RESUMPTION
MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, the next applicant is Nicholas Vermeulen.
NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Cornelius?
EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Vermeulen, you have submitted an amnesty application on the prescribed form, in terms of Section 18 of the law and you have given your full co-operation to the investigating officer.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You were an employee of the SAP, as defined in Section 20(2)(a) and 20(2)(f) of Act 34/95.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You were deployed to Section C1, known as Vlakplaas. The operations of the unit have been set out in documentation which has already been submitted to this Committee.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And do you concur that Vlakplaas was a covert counter-insurgency unit and was the operational wing of all the Security Branches in the Republic of South Africa?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: At the time of these incidents you were involved only in the second incident having taken place on the 12th of June 1988. At that time you were a Warrant Officer.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And Col de Kock was your commander.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You confirm the content of your amnesty application, the general background, your personal history as well as the general merits thereof.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And you agree that the political objective an action was aimed against the ANC and the communist movements within the Republic, as well as the political insurgency of institutions from abroad.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: At all times you carried out the actions or order of Mr de Kock, strictly and you acted on a need-to-know basis.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And at all times you acted within the scope of your duties at Vlakplaas.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Now with the second incident at Piet Retief, you were also deployed to the ambush?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: What were you armed with?
MR VERMEULEN: An R1 gun.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. Can you briefly tell us when the vehicle moved in, what happened?
MR VERMEULEN: We moved in, the vehicle stopped, the driver climbed out and ran around the front of the vehicle into the bushes on the side of the ambush. Because he had moved some distance past the pre-established point, Col de Kock gave the order to move ahead. We left our positions and ran in the direction of the vehicle.
MR CORNELIUS: What happened next?
MR VERMEULEN: Shots were fired and after Col de Kock had given the order to cease fire, I took up position next to the bus and waited there.
MR CORNELIUS: Four persons were killed?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, four persons were killed.
MR CORNELIUS: Had they been armed?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, all of them had been armed.
MR CORNELIUS: You were aware of the practice among the members of C-Section, that they would identify targets and then C1 would be called in to perform the action?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Do you have any reason to doubt the information and orders which were conveyed by de Kock and Pienaar?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR CORNELIUS: You were a foot-soldier, as is the general description?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: And these armed MK members, did they present any danger towards the Republic, according to your mind?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, they did.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that you were acting in the interests of your country at all times?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Against the then enemy of the Republic?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: And that you had to combat the insurgency of terrorists?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: With the exception of the salary that you received, in terms of Section 20(3)(f) of the Act of 1995, did you obtain any personal or financial reward for your participation in this action?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you harbour any feelings of personal malice or vengeance towards the victims?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR CORNELIUS: And according to your knowledge, have you made a full disclosure of the relevant facts for the Committee, in terms of Section 20(1)(c) of the relevant Act?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: You request thus that you be granted amnesty in terms of Section 20 of the Act?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: For four charges of murder emanating from the incident taking place on the 12th of June 1988?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: For your participation in perjury and defeating the ends of justice in the subsequent investigation?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: And then you are also applying for statutory and common-law delicts or any other delicts of offences which may emanate from your participation in the incident.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Cornelius. Ms van der Walt do you have any questions?
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO: CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?
MR HATTINGH: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?
MR BOOYENS: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?
MR JANSEN: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?
MR LAMEY: No questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Vermeulen, you made two statements relating to this incident. The first statement being the one that you made in preparation for the inquest which was to be held at Piet Retief.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: And the second statement being the one that you have made in respect of your amnesty application.
MR VERMEULEN: Sorry, just say again, Sir.
MR MOERANE: The second one being the one in respect of which you are testifying.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: Yes. And I assume you are telling this Honourable Committee that the one in bundle 1, page 334 to 335, is the correct one.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: And all that you had said in the Piet Retief statement, the one in preparation for the inquest was false?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: Yes. Now I just want to take you through your second statement. You say in the third sentence, that is now with regard to Manzini
"He would stop at a certain place with a minibus, climb out and urinate, which would be the signal that the correct people were in the bus."
That is correct?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR MOERANE: That is actually what was arranged and what was agreed?
MR VERMEULEN: Ja, that's what was agreed when I received my orders from Mr de Kock.
MR MOERANE: That's right. And when the rest of you also received instructions from Mr de Kock?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR MOERANE: You were all present at the same place and same time, when you were given these instructions and these briefings?
MR VERMEULEN: Ja, I would say so, but it could be that Mr de Kock gave some order to somebody else at some different time, I'm not sure, I can't say. But when I received my orders, this was roughly what I can remember.
MR MOERANE: Well, certainly the people from C1 would have received the same orders, in other words yourself and Mr Flores certainly?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR MOERANE: And you further say that bus actually went past the prearranged spot, it didn't stop where it was supposed to stop.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: And Col de Kock then gave the order that the bus or the kombi should be attacked?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Sir.
MR MOERANE: And you all got up and ran towards the kombi.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.
MR MOERANE: With the intention of shooting.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: Is his evidence also correct, that he ran ahead of you? In other words, he was in front.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: And that he was about a metre or two from the left front door of the kombi when he started firing.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: And would I be correct in saying that, as you say in your statement, that you didn't see any shooting from the kombi?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: If anybody had fired from the kombi in your direction, you would have seen that?
MR VERMEULEN: I think so, yes.
MR MOERANE: Yes, because you would have been the target.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: And it was dark there, you would have seen the flash.
MR VERMEULEN: The flash, yes.
MR MOERANE: That's right. And you didn't see any of that?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Sir.
MR MOERANE: You say, page 335
"The weapons which we used here were government weapons which were provided from Freek Pienaar's office."
Is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: And you say some uncomplimentary things about the state of that weaponry
"I can recall that the weapons were in such a bad condition that I had to oil them first before the operation."
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: You recall that?
MR VERMEULEN: I received an order from Mr de Kock, because he inspected the weapons and they were not in a satisfactory condition.
MR MOERANE: Yes. In other words, the weapons that you used on that occasion were not weapons which were issued at Vlakplaas, but they were weapons which were issued in Piet Retief?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that for the whole - to all the Vlakplaas members, they received Piet Retief weapons?
MR VERMEULEN: Ja, most of the people, I think so, Sir.
MR MOERANE: And would I be correct in saying that there was no proper accounting for the weapons and the ammunition, in the sense of signing for the weapons and the ammunition?
MR VERMEULEN: I won't say that, I would say in the instance the weapons by number weren't booked out to each individual, but each individual received a weapon plus, I think 20 rounds of ammunition, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: Do you remember that? Is it possible that you might have received more ammunition, like 50 rounds rather than 20 rounds?
MR VERMEULEN: An R1 magazine takes 20 rounds of ammunition and to carry a lot of loose ammunition wouldn't be advisable because it could be lost. And in an ambush situation I don't think we would have used much more than 20.
MR MOERANE: I seem to recall that some of the people who were there might have used more than that.
MR VERMEULEN: I won't dispute that, Sir.
MR MOERANE: Would I be correct in assuming that you spent a couple of days before the second incident, at a place called Island Rock?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Sir.
MR MOERANE: And the purpose of that gathering has been said to be one of team-building, "spanbou".
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: What does that involved, what actually happened there?
MR VERMEULEN: "Spanbou" is usually just where the guys come together and they relax. That was the purpose of that special, that specific "spanbou".
MR MOERANE: Yes, but how did you relax, what were you doing?
MR VERMEULEN: We were playing touch rugby, we were having a couple of beers, fishing, doing just what everybody wanted to do, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: And were the any sessions where you'd be addressed by Brig Schoon?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Sir, not that I can remember of, Mr Chair. We did mix with up casually, but not a specific time or whatever.
MR MOERANE: Was this a holiday or sorts?
MR VERMEULEN: You can put it like that, Sir.
MR MOERANE: And you called team-building?
MR VERMEULEN: That is team-building, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: And this went on for four days?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: Well amongst the people who attended that holiday, or were present, were people who had been involved in a shooting incident on the 8th of June.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: Was that mentioned?
MR VERMEULEN: I can't recall that, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: Well it must have been mentioned, Mr Vermeulen.
MR VERMEULEN: Mr Chair, as already said, we do work on this must-know basis and if I go on a "spanbou" I don't want to know anything about any other words, except relaxing. So I don't interfere with anybody else's official work, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: No, no, I'm not suggesting that you might have been interfering, but just as part of "spanbou", one of those or two of those who had been involved telling the others that well, we are doing okay, we have actually killed four of them.
MR VERMEULEN: That's could have happened, but it wasn't in my presence at any stage at that "spanbou", Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: In your activities as part of the C1 unit, you must have engaged in a lot of illegal activities.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: Which as we know included murder.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: It included abduction of people.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: It included destruction of property, buildings and motor vehicles.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: It involved covering up those activities.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: By means of lies and other means.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: And the murders also involved silencing people so that they couldn't speak.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: Were you in any way congratulated for the killings of the 12th of June? Did anyone say "Well done"?
MR VERMEULEN: Not that I can think of, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: You know that Mr Adriaan Vlok issued a statement after the second incident, wherein he said nine people had been killed.
MR VERMEULEN: I just heard about that statement, I didn't read it myself, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: Have you received any commendation for the work you did for Vlakplaas?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: From?
MR VERMEULEN: From the Commissioner of Police, and then we received various certificates, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: What certificates?
MR VERMEULEN: There was a certificate for recommendation for work that was done satisfactorily, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: I see. In other words, commendation for work well done?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: And who is that Commissioner who commended?
MR VERMEULEN: I'm not sure, I think it was Commissioner van der Merwe. I'm not sure about that, Sir.
MR MOERANE: Do you know whether or not at Island Rock, the members of C1 who had taken part in the first incident, were congratulated, commended?
MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, Sir.
MR MOERANE: Mr Vermeulen, who told you that you could engage in illegal activities against the ANC in particular?
MR VERMEULEN: All the instances where I was involved, I had the instructions, specific instructions, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: Yes, yes, but you see this must have started somewhere. You know that as a policeman you were not obliged to follow illegal instructions, not so?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: Well who told you that you could, that you could not disobey, if anyone, such instructions?
MR VERMEULEN: Our orders that we received from our commanders we just did it properly as was expected from us, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: No-one told you that you could refuse to carry out an illegal, a patently illegal order?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: So would it be correct to say that it was the culture at C1, that illegal acts against the ANC were acceptable?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, we can put it that way, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: Were there any limits placed to the illegality?
MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, I think for every action that we would have done or executed, we first had to consult with Mr de Kock and we wouldn't have done anything without his consent, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: Yes, but as an individual, did you know of any limits beyond which you couldn't go?
MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, I was never instructed about any limits, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: You know that in a war situation there are certain limits, which have been codified in various protocols, like the Geneva Convention and the various protocols to that? Treatment of prisoners of war and the rules of engagement in war, you know that?
MR VERMEULEN: I know that, Mr Chairman.
MR MOERANE: Well did you observe any such codes in your conduct?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chair.
MR MOERANE: No. In fact you were actually a law unto yourselves so to speak.
MR VERMEULEN: We can put it that way, Sir.
MR MOERANE: I see. No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Moerane. Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions?
MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius, do you have any re-examination?
MR CORNELIUS: I have no re-examination, thank you, Mr Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, have you any questions you'd like to ask?
ADV GCABASHE: Yes, thank you, Chair.
Mr Vermeulen, the second incident, after the shooting you say you were told to stand by the bus.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, you can put it that way, Mr Chairman.
ADV GCABASHE: Did you have anything to do with checking the weapons that the four deceased had on them?
MR VERMEULEN: I can't remember. I would have looked at it, but I don't think I handled it at any stage.
ADV GCABASHE: What I'm interested in is in finding out if any one of them had fired a shot at all, just by checking the magazines to see if they were still fully loaded or not.
MR VERMEULEN: I didn't check the magazines, but I'm quite sure no shots were fired from out the bus.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Just on that, Mr Vermeulen, were you regarded as an expert when it got to firearms and weapons?
MR VERMEULEN: I would say so, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Because you did say you were the one who was ordered to oil the firearms and get them into a reasonable condition.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: And in your - yes, thank you. Sorry, Mr Malan, do you have any questions?
MR MALAN: No questions, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, are there any questions arising out of questions put? Thank you, Mr Vermeulen, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down.
MR VERMEULEN: Thank you, Sir.
WITNESS EXCUSED
