Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] matter of Mr Absalom, Mr Dladla is it, and Mr Ndlovu.

Mr Alberts, you are appearing for both of these applicants?

MR ALBERTS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Brink, you are leader of evidence?

MR BRINK: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to commence?

MR BRINK: Yes we are. I think Mr Wills is here to represent various next-of-kin.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a name of the list of the people that you represent?

MR WILLS: I do Mr Chairperson. If you could just bear with me? I represent the following people: Welcome Themba Ngoso Mkhize, David Lembeti, Nbongeni Nxobo, Theresa Theni Nxabi, Elbertina Bongikile Chezi, Makwapeli Dlamini, Pindile Zuma, Mita Mkhize, Janet Ndlovu, Florena Dlamini, Sibongili Trivina Ndlovu, Queen Khanyezi, Sipho Ernest Khoneni and Ntongkozizi Xulu, Titus ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that surname? Xulu?

MR WILLS: X-U-L-U Mr Chairman. Titus Dlamini, A S Dlamini and Dumisani Johannes Sithole.

CHAIRPERSON: These are people who are either parents of those that died or their next-of-kin or those who have suffered injuries themselves?

MR WILLS: That is correct in every instance Mr Chairperson.

MR ALBERTS: I then call the applicant Mr Dladla, the first applicant.

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names?

MR DLADLA: Mabhungu Absalom Dladla.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.

EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS: You are currently serving a life sentence for a murder of ten people and attempted murder of two others on the 5th of March 1993, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Was it the sentence or the commission of the offence?

MR ALBERTS: The offence was committed the 5th of March 1993.

Mr Dladla you must please speak up, it is difficult to hear you.

MR DLADLA: I do not understand what you mean by life sentence. No, I was sentenced to death, not a life sentence.

MR ALBERTS: Where did you grow up?

MR DLADLA: I grew up in Camperdown. In Table Mountain.

MR ALBERTS: And where is that?

MR DLADLA: Near Pietermaritzburg.

MR ALBERTS: That is near Pietermaritzburg?

MR DLADLA: Ja.

MR ALBERTS: Did you grow up in a western community or were you brought up in a more traditional Zulu way?

MR DLADLA: It is traditional.

MR ALBERTS: Did you comply with the Zulu tradition, for example slaughtering animals?

MR DLADLA: Yes.

MR ALBERTS: And you were also a member of the IFP, is that correct?

MR DLADLA: Yes.

MR ALBERTS: How did you come to join the IFP?

MR DLADLA: My parents were IFP members and I started liking it because my parents were supporters of it. I became one of its members and I got a membership card.

MR ALBERTS: Did you have any specific authority in the IFP for example a chairman of something?

MR DLADLA: No, I was just an ordinary member.

MR ALBERTS: The incident that took place on the 5th of March 1993 for which you are applying for amnesty, how did it come about that you decided to commit this offence?

MR DLADLA: On 2 March 1993, the IFP children on their way to school, in a van, were murdered. This happened in Maqongqo.

MR ALBERTS: Do you know by whom?

MR DLADLA: Yes, I know one person who was mentioned by the survivors. He is Qeda Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Spell the first name of that man, Nxteta Zulu?

INTERPRETER: Qeda Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR ALBERTS: And when you decided to commit this act was there somebody else with you? Did you discuss this matter?

MR DLADLA: Yes, there were other people.

MR ALBERTS: Who was with you?

MR DLADLA: Nkanyiso Wilfred Ndlovu and Makhekhe chistopher Zondi.

MR ALBERTS: Mr Ndlovu is the second applicant here with you today, who was also convicted with you?

MR DLADLA: Yes.

MR ALBERTS: Where did this meeting take place?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just before you go to that. You see Mr Alberts he's talked about school children being killed. You haven't asked him where, what time, when, shouldn't that be cleared up?

MR ALBERTS: Yes. The school children who were killed do you remember their names?

MR DLADLA: Yes, I remember their names. I knew Wa Khumalo, a certain Mkhize, a Gwala girl. please give me a chance to remember some of them.

CHAIRPERSON: In the meanwhile can you tell us where were these children killed?

MR DLADLA: They were killed in Table Mountain area, at Mboyi.

MR ALBERTS: Do you know how this incident took place? What happened during this incident when the children were killed?

MR DLADLA: No. I was not there. I was at home and heard gun shots. i then got into the army car that was proceeding there, where the kids were injured. When we arrived there ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't there.

MR DLADLA: I was there when they were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you see there?

MR DLADLA: I found the kids there. Some of them were already dead and some were injured but could still talk.

MR ALBERTS: And this person that the people told you was involved, who was he?

MR DLADLA: He was Qeda Zulu. He was also a resident of Camperdown. My neighbour. Thereafter, he fled the area and went to stay in Nkanyezini.

MR ALBERTS: Yes who is he? Why would he have been involved in the killing of these children?

MR DLADLA: ...[no English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: Had they tell you what had happened?

MR DLADLA: I asked the children what had happened and they said they had been shot. They said Qeda was amongst those people who shot them.

MR ALBERTS: Why would this Mr Zulu have been involved in the attack on the children?

MR DLADLA: He is an ANC member. The parents of the children who were attacked were IFP members. Perhaps Qeda hated their parents and that is why he attacked these children.

CHAIRPERSON: They say it could be, is that what you are saying?

MR DLADLA: I think he killed them because they were staying in the IFP area and their parents were IFP supporters.

MR ALBERTS: What was the situation in the Tableview area at that time, was it peaceful?

MR DLADLA: There was violence.

MR ALBERTS: What resulted in the violence? What was the reason for the violence?

CHAIRPERSON: What was the cause?

MR ALBERTS: The cause for the violence?

MR DLADLA: It was between the IFP and the ANC supporters.

MR ALBERTS: Can you tell us what caused the violence between the IFP and the ANC? What caused them to fight against each other?

MR DLADLA: The ANC supporters were attacking us.

MR ALBERTS: Okay, after the incident of the children being killed you had a meeting with the other two people you mentioned, what was decided or discussed at that meeting?

MR DLADLA: After the attack on the children, I talked to Makhekhe and told him that we had to avenge this. I thought a revenge was necessary this was not the first time that the ANC supporters had attacked us.

MR ALBERTS: Where was this discussion held?

MR DLADLA: We were near Mkhize's house where the children were killed. I was there to offer support as a youngster, because the adults were mourning. Sepiwe was also there. I then discussed with him that we had to avenge, and he agreed.

MR ALBERTS: What did you then decide to do?

MR DLADLA: We discussed that our target should be Nofu's kombi that was driven by Qeda Zuma. We chose this kombi because it is the one that was used by ANC supporters to attack IFP supporters.

MR ALBERTS: Was it only you and Makhekhe at that time?

MR DLADLA: Yes.

MR ALBERTS: Okay what did you do to implement your plan?

MR DLADLA: We decided to approach Nkanyiso who had a better knowledge about the movements of this kombi. We then went to Nkanyiso

CHAIRPERSON: Just give us the name of the person so that we can write it down properly. Who did you go and discuss this with, who did you go and talk to?

MR DLADLA: Nkanyiso.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that name?

MR DLADLA: N-K-A-N-Y-I-S-O.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes how do you spell that name?

INTERPRETER: N-K-A-N-Y-I-S-O.

CHAIRPERSON: And his surname?

MR MALAN: The second applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh I am sorry the second applicant. Yes carry on.

MR ALBERTS: Is that the second applicant in this application?

MR DLADLA: That is true.

MR ALBERTS: What happened when you met up with Mr Ndlovu?

MR DLADLA: We got into Makhekhe's car and proceeded to Nkanyezini to look for Nkanyiso. We found him at Ngidi's stored and took him with us. On our way, we told him about our plans.

MR ALBERTS: Yes?

MR DLADLA: We asked him to explain to us the movements of this kombi. He did that.

MR ALBERTS: Yes?

MR DLADLA: We then influenced him to be with us when we attacked that kombi.

MR ALBERTS: Where did you go to then?

MR DLADLA: We then went to Makhekhe's house because all our discussions happened in the car.

MR ALBERTS: Yes and at Makhekhe's house what happened?

MR DLADLA: We waited at Makhekhe's house, thereafter Makhekhe took out three firearms, an AK 47, a shotgun and R1 rifle. He gave an AK 47 to Nkanyiso, an R1 rifle to me and carried a shotgun.

MR ALBERTS: When was this?

MR DLADLA: He took out three firearms.

MR ALBERTS: What kind of weapons was that?

MR DLADLA: It was an AK 47, a shotgun and an R1 rifle.

MR ALBERTS: What did you do with the three weapons?

MR DLADLA: To kill.

MR ALBERTS: What weapon did you take?

MR DLADLA: I had a rifle.

MR ALBERTS: And the second applicant?

MR DLADLA: He had an AK 47.

MR ALBERTS: And Makhekhe the shotgun. Okay what did you then do?

MR DLADLA: Thereafter he sprinkled us with muti.

MR ALBERTS: Yes?

MR DLADLA: We then planned where we were going to attack that kombi.

MR ALBERTS: Did you then go to that place?

MR DLADLA: We decided that it should be on a deserted road coming from town.

CHAIRPERSON: Which town?

MR DLADLA: Pietermaritzburg.

MR ALBERTS: Did you then go to that place?

MR DLADLA: Yes, we went there.

MR ALBERTS: And when you got there what did you do?

MR DLADLA: We slept there because we arrived during the night.

MR ALBERTS: Yes?

MR DLADLA: We waited since 4 o clock in the morning for the kombi to drive past there ...[intervention]

MR ALBERTS: Yes, and what happened on the following morning?

MR DLADLA: Yes. We went for this kombi driven by Qeda.

MR ALBERTS: Why were you waiting, were you waiting for a specific kombi?

MR DLADLA: Yes.

MR ALBERTS: Okay and did the kombi eventually arrive?

MR DLADLA: Late in the afternoon, this kombi came. When we saw it approaching, we started shooting.

MR ALBERTS: How far were you from the kombi when you started shooting?

MR DLADLA: We were as far from here to the wall there.

MR ALBERTS: Approximately 10 to 15 metres.

MR WILLS: With respect Mr Chairperson, I estimate that distance to be 8 metres.

MR DLADLA: I agree.

MR WILLS: As the Committee pleases.

MR ALBERTS: Tell us in detail what happened from the time you started shooting at this vehicle?

MR DLADLA: When we saw it approaching and was not far from us, we started shooting.

MR ALBERTS: How many shots were fired? How many shots did you fire?

MR DLADLA: I fired until the magazine was empty.

MR ALBERTS: Do you know how many rounds an R1 magazine can take?

MR DLADLA: There were twenty rounds of ammunition.

MR ALBERTS: And after the magazine was empty did you reload?

MR DLADLA: No, I did not. I had two magazines.

MR ALBERTS: Did you use both magazines?

MR DLADLA: Yes, I used both but did not finish the second magazine.

MR ALBERTS: Do you know how many shots the second applicant and the third person fired?

MR MALAN: Could we just come back to the second.

MR DLADLA: I did not count.

MR MALAN: You say the second casket wasn't finished, how many bullets did you use from that one?

MR DLADLA: I did not see how many were left.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes carry on.

MR ALBERTS: Did you move ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think his answer was he didn't know how many bullets his companions fired.

MR ALBERTS: Was there a lot of shooting?

MR DLADLA: It was a long time when we started shooting at it. We were still shooting at it when it drove past us until it stopped.

MR ALBERTS: And did you shoot at, during all of this time?

MR DLADLA: Yes.

MR ALBERTS: And after the kombi stopped?

MR DLADLA: After it stopped, we approached it and were still shooting.

MR ALBERTS: Yes?

MR DLADLA: When we approached it we realised that our victims were not the people we were looking for. The kombi was not carrying the ANC supporters but the members of the public. We also saw that there were females in the kombi, but we went on shooting. Although we had seen that these commuters were women, we went on shooting because they were staying in the ANC area. We wanted the ANC to feel what we felt.

MR ALBERTS: And eventually when the shooting did stop what did you do?

MR DLADLA: After we shot at them, some of them were already injured.

MR ALBERTS: Yes, and where did you go to then?

MR DLADLA: We stopped shooting and went into the bushes.

MR ALBERTS: Yes and then?

MR DLADLA: We waited until it became dark.

MR ALBERTS: Yes, where did you go to?

MR DLADLA: We then went to Nkanyiso's house.

MR ALBERTS: Was that at the end of this incident?

MR DLADLA: We gave Nkanyiso the firearms to hide them for us.

MR ALBERTS: And did you then disperse?

MR DLADLA: Yes, we dispersed.

MR ALBERTS: What did you hope to achieve by attacking this kombi?

MR DLADLA: There are IFP supporters in Mboyi. Our shortest route to go to town passed Nkanyezini. We could no longer, however, use this short route to town because they were shooting at us. I was once shot at too. We could no longer go past there.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the name of that place? What area that you had to go through?

MR DLADLA: Nkanyezini.

MR ALBERTS: Yes, can you explain to us what you hoped to achieve by attacking this kombi?

MR DLADLA: Nkanyezini is an ANC stronghold and we people from Mboyi could no longer walk past there. We could no longer go to town to buy. We were imprisoned in our area. Our people would be free to walk after this.

MR ALBERTS: What do you mean by saying that the route, the town was blocked?

MR DLADLA: Our aim was to avenge. Secondly, we could no longer walk past Nkanyezini.

MR ALBERTS: My question is how come that you could not pass through that area any more?

MR DLADLA: They were shooting at us. I was also shot in January 1993. We were blocked from walking there.

MR ALBERTS: How would the attack on this vehicle help you to move through this area again?

MR DLADLA: Our intention was to kill the people who were attacking the IFP supporters. This kombi was being used to ferry these people. It never carried members of the public, as far as we knew. We did not intend to injure the people who were in the kombi at that time.

MR ALBERTS: Yes, my question is how would the killing of ANC members assist you in being able to go into that area again?

MR DLADLA: These people in Nkanyezini were attacking us. This would have opened the way for us, IFP supporters, to walk past there.

MR ALBERTS: Yes, but in what way would it help you to kill ANC members to achieve your purpose of being able to use the area?

MR MALAN: Could I put it the other way around? After you had completed this attack was the route opened to you again, could you move through Nkanyezini?

MR DLADLA: That has since stopped because people from both areas can now visit each other.

MR MALAN: Did the shooting take place in that area where you were shot at?

MR DLADLA: It is in the area.

MR ALBERTS: How do you feel about the fact that 10 people died and others were seriously injured as a result of your actions?

MR DLADLA: I feel very bad. What I did was wrong and makes me feel bad. That is why I decided to appear before the Commission, to ask for the relatives of those people to forgive me.

MR ALBERTS: Did you personally gain anything? Did you get money or any gifts for what you did?

MR DLADLA: No, I did not gain anything.

MR ALBERTS: Is there anything you would like to say to the family members of the victims and the survivors of this attack?

MR DLADLA: Yes. I sympathise with then for what happened. I ask then to forgive me because what I did was wrong.

MR ALBERTS: Thank you Mr Chairman no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS

MR DLADLA: Sorry, I have not said everything that I wanted to say. Can I proceed? When I was arrested, I did not say anything about Sepiwe. I protected him. To the police, I mentioned the name Sifiso Mkhize, and said he was with me. I mentioned Sifiso Mkhize because he is the first person I approached when I wanted to attack the kombi. When I told him that, He refused to be part of us. I mentioned him because this happened on Friday and we were arrested on Saturday. I then suspected him giving that information to the police. That is all what I wanted to clarify. I did not mention Makhekhe's name.

MR DLADLA: Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is this Sepiwe Mkhize?

MR DLADLA: Sifiso.

CHAIRPERSON: Sifiso?

MR DLADLA: Yes, Sifiso.

CHAIRPERSON: In the shooting did Zondi take a part as well?

MR DLADLA: Yes, he was present.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was not charged with you in the criminal trial?

MR DLADLA: He was not charged because I did not mention his name.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give the police the name of Ndlovu as being the person who was with you?

MR DLADLA: Yes. I told the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: I am just testing my mike, the light isn't on. Is it working? Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Dladla did I understand you correctly when you indicated that you fired certain shots at the kombi, when it stopped you moved up closer, you continued firing and you then noticed that the people weren't the ANC members that you expected, i.e. the victim and then after that you carried on firing at them.

MR DLADLA: These people come from the ANC area, although they were not the people we sought.

MR WILLS: Is it on now?

You don't seem to understand my question. I am concerned about what I infer your evidence suggests and that is when you saw the people in the kombi were not the targets that you intended to shoot at you still carried on shooting after that realisation. That is my question?

MR DLADLA: Yes.

MR WILLS: Why did you do this?

MR DLADLA: We were shooting them because they were staying in the ANC area.

CHAIRPERSON: Even though they may be people who were not interested in politics, who may not have been members of the ANC ...[intervention]?

MR DLADLA: I cannot dispute if they say they were not members of the ANC. However, they were staying in the ANC area and we attacked them in that area. We went on shooting because we wanted the ANC to feel that.

MR WILLS: It seems from your evidence that you must agree with the finding of the trial court in this matter.

I quote from page 44 of the record Mr Chairperson.

"He and his companions had absolutely no reason to think or suspect or believe that any of the passengers in this minibus had anything to do with the killing and they clearly did not have any such belief or suspicion."

Is that correct?

MR DLADLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Give the gist of it?

MR WILLS: I will do Mr Chairperson, thank you. Basically the Court found that you realised that the people in the minibus had absolutely nothing to do with the killing of the children, is that correct?

MR DLADLA: That kombi was not used to carry ordinary members of the public, it was used by our attackers. Those were the people we intended to kill when we attacked this kombi.

MR WILLS: In fact it is true that you didn't know who was in that minibus whatsoever did you?

MR DLADLA: No, I dispute that. That kombi is used to carry ANC members. That is why we targeted it.

CHAIRPERSON: Now it didn't carry only ANC, it would carry anybody else too wouldn't it?

MR DLADLA: I do not know whether there were ANC or IFP members. What I say is that we knew this kombi as carrying ANC members. I agree that these people we killed had nothing to do with death of school children.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

I put it to you that none of the victims, those people who were either killed or the people who were injured had anything whatsoever to do with the ANC. Can you respond?

MR DLADLA: As I have already explained, this kombi is not known to carry members of the public, it carries ANC members who were killing IFP members.

MR WILLS: Why did you not investigate more thoroughly or plan your operation more thoroughly to ensure that the people who you killed and injured were the people who you intended to kill and injure?

MR DLADLA: I could not.

MR WILLS: Just for the record I am going to put my instructions to you and that is that the injured people, the driver of the bus was an individual by the name of Welcome Thembankosi Mkhize. He was the driver. He was non-partisan. David Lembeti or sorry, the deceased Bongili Berta Limbeti was not a member of any political organisation. The deceased Bekiziwe Nxabi was a member of the IFP. And in fact he was even buried by the IFP after this incident. Do you dispute any of that?

MR DLADLA: I cannot dispute it.

MR WILLS: Do you dispute the fact that Muta Mkhize, his mother Zinzingi Zimu were members of an IFP family, both victims?

MR DLADLA: I cannot dispute it because I do not know them.

MR WILLS: Do you deny the fact that Bongani Zephaniah Ndlovu was an IFP member from an IFP family?

MR DLADLA: As I explained before, the people in the kombi were not the people we intended. I therefore cannot dispute that there were IFP members in that kombi too. What I say is that I knew the kombi to carry ANC supporters and those were the people we intended.

MR WILLS: What I am putting to you Mr Dladla is the fact of the matter is that a number, more than half of those persons who died ...[intervention]

MR DLADLA: Mboyi is an IFP stronghold. In Nkanyezini, there are ANC supporters, that is why they went to attack school children there. People in the area were very afraid, as I explained. I was also shot at in Nkanyezini. This was going to help us, therefore, not to be attacked by the ANC people.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask you a few questions please? I want you to listen very carefully. There were three of you. You were armed?

MR DLADLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You could have stopped that vehicle by firing a warning shot. Is that not so?

MR DLADLA: We could not do that because the people using that taxi were always armed.

CHAIRPERSON: You could have fired a warning shot, the three of you to try to stop ...[indistinct]

MR DLADLA: Our intention was to shoot the people using that kombi. We did not intend stopping it. We were going to kill that people.

CHAIRPERSON: You are now applying for amnesty for having killed some IFP people is that it?

MR DLADLA: No. I ask amnesty for killing people I did not intend to. It has been explained to me that those were not the ANC supporters, the people we intended to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: I put it to you that you were totally reckless because you said in your evidence that even when you saw they were women and you did not intend to kill women you nevertheless proceeded to do so. How can that conduct be explained?

MR DLADLA: Where we attacked this kombi was in an ANC area. People staying there belong to the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: This kombi picks up passengers all along the road from all areas.

MR DLADLA: That kombi is used by ANC people. Those were the people we wanted. The driver of that kombi is Qeda, who was involved in killing school children.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's come back to the question. When you discovered that there were women in the bus, you had no intention of killing women but you changed your mind and you decided to kill them. Why?

MR DLADLA: We did this so that the ANC can feel the pain. Like we did.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't think about the pain of innocent passengers?

MR DLADLA: I felt the pain later, not at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions you wish to put to this witness?

MR WILLS: There are a number.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please put them.

MR WILLS: Thank you.

Do you realise Mr Dladla that one of the conditions of getting amnesty is that you have to fully disclose all the material facts concerning the incident?

MR DLADLA: Yes.

MR WILLS: Where did you get your guns from?

MR DLADLA: We got them from Makhekhe.

MR WILLS: Where did Makhekhe get the guns from?

MR DLADLA: I do not know. They were in one of his huts. He fetched them and gave them to us.

MR WILLS: Have you had any military training in use of firearms?

MR DLADLA: No. I was never trained.

MR WILLS: Can you tell me then how you were able to use the firearms on the day in question?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) That is not relevant. The fact of the matter is he did and killed people, whether he knew or not how to use it.

MR WILLS: Yes, with respect Mr Chairperson, the instructions I have as regard to the issue of full disclosure is that there is in fact a deeper political connection between the supply of weapons and training and linking this individual up. But if the Committee doesn't want me to pursue that avenue I am perfectly happy to leave.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I mean leave it. He has taken part in the shooting, he tells you he gets a firearm from Makhekhe, he doesn't know where Makhekhe got the guns from. Unless you are in a position to contradict him, unless you have information to show that he is concealing that fact that he got it from somewhere else, (...indistinct) that is the kind of information then you must put it to him.

MR WILLS: Yes as you please Mr Chairperson.

Mr Dladla I put it to you that you were in fact a trained IFP operative in that area and this in fact isn't the first incident you are involved in.

MR DLADLA: I was never trained.

MR WILLS: Do you know a gentleman by the name of Mr Phillip Powell?

MR DLADLA: Yes. I know Phillip Powell.

MR WILLS: How do you know him?

MR DLADLA: I know him as one of the IFP members.

MR WILLS: But how do you know him as a member of IFP?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR WILLS: Yes.

Have you had any personal dealings with Mr Powell?

MR DLADLA: No, I never met him.

MR WILLS: Is it true that the second applicant in this matter was in fact a chairperson of the IFP youth in that area?

MR DLADLA: Which Ndlovu? I know him as just a member, not that he had any position.

MR WILLS: Were you yourself an active IFP member in the area?

MR DLADLA: I was just a member. I did not hold any position.

MR WILLS: Were you at all involved in any of the political violence you referred to in the area as occurring in the area around the time of the incident?

MR DLADLA: No, I was never involved.

MR WILLS: When you refer to the violence in the area can you tell the Committee what violence the IFP got involved in, in that area around the time of this incident?

MR DLADLA: The IFP was being attacked by the ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question really tried to elicit an answer did the IFP members ever attack the ANC members?

MR DLADLA: No there was no attack by the IFP. If it happens, I did not know about it.

MR WILLS: If the Committee will just bear with me? I want to go back to the meeting that you had concerning the decision to attack this kombi. Am I correct in saying that you were the one who took the decision, or you were the one who motivated this action, decided on the attack?

MR DLADLA: Yes. I am the one.

MR WILLS: And then you got, was it two other cohorts to join you?

MR DLADLA: Yes.

MR WILLS: So in total there were three of you?

MR DLADLA: Yes, we were three.

MR WILLS: And the third person was Sepiwe Zondi?

MR DLADLA: Yes.

MR WILLS: Is Sepiwe Zondi still alive?

MR DLADLA: Sepiwe is deceased.

MR WILLS: Two of the persons who I represent and who were injured in the kombi on that day are reasonably sure that there were 5 people involved in attack on the kombi and they gave this information to the police. Can you comment on that?

MR DLADLA: We were three.

MR WILLS: You mentioned that you gave all the weapons to the second applicant after the incident, is that correct?

MR DLADLA: Yes.

MR WILLS: The police in the court indicated that when they came to your house to arrest you that you had indicated to them that you had given one of the weapons to a person by the name of Ntolo, and they actually attended with you to Ntolo's hut and they got that weapon from there. Do you recall that?

MR DLADLA: I remember that. The firearm I gave to Mtolo was mine. It was an AK 47 I picked up. I then asked Mtolo to keep it for me because he had a licence. I could not keep it. I told the police about this and Mtolo gave the firearm to them.

MR WILLS: Was this weapon used in the attack?

MR DLADLA: No.

MR WILLS: Why did you have that weapon?

MR DLADLA: I picked it up.

MR WILLS: I didn't ask you how you came to be in possession of that weapon. I asked you why you possessed it?

MR DLADLA: I grew up in a rural area. I was looking after cattle when I found it hidden.

MR WILLS: If you had such an innocent past as you would have this Committee believe on your evidence, why did you not hand this weapon into the police, why did you bother keeping it?

MR DLADLA: I had been attacked by the ANC members several times. I kept it to defend myself.

MR WILLS: Did you ever use it for self-protection?

MR DLADLA: No.

MR WILLS: I put it to you that you are not being candid with the Committee as regards the way that you and the second applicant came into possession of the firearms.

MR DLADLA: I am telling the truth. The firearms were given to us by Makhekhe and we could not ask him where he got the firearms from.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you nearly finished?

MR WILLS: Yes, just very briefly thank you Mr Chair. Just one last aspect. Who did you say or who did you think the driver of this kombi was?

MR DLADLA: Qeda is the driver of that kombi.

MR WILLS: Does this Keta have any other name?

MR DLADLA: Yes, he is Jeremiah Zulu.

MR WILLS: Do you his surname, Jeremiah's surname?

MR DLADLA: Zulu. Qeda Jeremiah Zulu.

MR WILLS: Well I put it to you on objective evidence which is accepted by the Court, that the person actually driving the kombi that day, and that person is present in this room today, was an individual by the name of Welcome Themba Ngoso Mkhize, and further that he has never been known by any of the names you have mentioned today.

MR DLADLA: Yes. The kombi was not driven by Qeda on that day, it was driven by its owner. Qeda is the regular driver because the owner is employed somewhere.

MR WILLS: Are you saying that on the day of the incident, that this person Keta was not driving the kombi?

Yes sorry I didn't - so you further saying that even though you realised that, you still attacked the kombi?

MR DLADLA: Yes, we continued.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have questions that you wish to put to this witness?

MR BRINK: No, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS: Yes Mr Chairman, just a few aspects on the point that my learned friend has just touched on.

At what stage during this attack did you realise that the people in the kombi are not the people that you expected to find in the kombi?

MR DLADLA: This a dusty road. There was dust when it approaches and drove past us. It was only after the dust had subsided that we realised that the people that we were shooting at were not the people we intended.

MR ALBERTS: Was it before or after the kombi stopped?

MR DLADLA: It was after it had stopped.

MR ALBERTS: As far as the information you had was concerned, was this kombi usually used as a taxi?

MR DLADLA: It is not used by the public.

MR ALBERTS: According to your information what was this kombi used as?

MR DLADLA: It was used by ANC supporters to attack IFP supporters.

MR ALBERTS: And who did you expect to find inside that vehicle?

MR DLADLA: We expected the people who were attackers of the IFP.

MR ALBERTS: Thank you Mr Chairman nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, is Mr Welcome Mkhize here?

MR WILLS: He is indeed Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And is he available to give evidence? I would like a few questions to put to him.

MR WILLS: I am sure he wouldn't mind. I haven't broached him on the subject but he is here.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused. Excuse me, yes you are excused you can go off please.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhize, are you here? Mr Mkhize I am sorry, you did not know that you were going to give evidence but I personally would like to clear up one or two questions about this vehicle. Are you prepared to answer questions?

WELCOME MKHIZE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Your name has been mentioned as the driver of this kombi on the day when it was attacked by the applicant and his companions. Were you in fact the driver?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I was the driver on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the owner of this kombi?

MR MKHIZE: I am the owner.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at that time when this incident occurred - were you at that time the owner?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what was the purpose for which this kombi was used?

MR MKHIZE: It was a taxi.

CHAIRPERSON: You say it was a regular taxi used like other taxis?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And where did you operate from and to what destination?

MR MKHIZE: I was operating from Pietermaritzburg town to Nkanyezini area.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many trips a day did you make?

MR MKHIZE: It depended on how many passengers I got.

CHAIRPERSON: Would there be a time when it would make more than one trip a day?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, about four trips a day.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you pick up passengers along the way?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard the evidence of the last witness who says that you operated from an ANC area.

MR MKHIZE: It was not true that the areas were divided as IFP or ANC areas.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge did your vehicle only convey ANC passengers?

MR MKHIZE: No. It was ferrying all passengers.

CHAIRPERSON: The man Mthethwa whose name has been mentioned here, was he your regular driver?

MR MKHIZE: That is a lie. Qeda never drove my car. I was always driving it whenever my driver was not there.

CHAIRPERSON: You know the man Mthethwa?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know him.

CHAIRPERSON: On the day of this incident were you one of those who were injured?

MR MKHIZE: By the grace of Jesus, I was not injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Alberts are there any questions you wish to put to this person?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

How do you know this person Mthethwa?

MR MKHIZE: I knew Qeda as one of the home boys, like and other boy in the area. When the violence started, I left and went to stay in town because I could afford. I left them in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Just come forward and talk into the mike.

MR BRINK: Sit up straight.

MR MKHIZE: I cannot remember. I was already in the suburb when the violence started.

MR ALBERTS: Did you still work in this area?

MR MKHIZE: I ran a taxi business.

MR ALBERTS: When was it that you moved to the suburbs?

MR MKHIZE: Long ago, before many people started dying.

MR ALBERTS: And what type of, you said you had a job, what job did you do in the suburbs?

MR MKHIZE: I was a manager for Rainbow Chicken.

MR ALBERTS: So during the day time you could not operate your taxi?

MR MKHIZE: I was driving it when I am off.

MR ALBERTS: And on the days that you were working, did that taxi just stand there at home?

MR MKHIZE: Thulani Zimu was using it.

MR ALBERTS: If I am not mistaken your evidence earlier was that you were the driver of that vehicle at all times, nobody else?

MR MKHIZE: Let me explain that I am working at Rainbow Chicken. When I was off, I would drive it.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the name of the person who drove it whilst you were at work, Thulani what? Thulani what?

MR MKHIZE: Thulani Zimu.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR ALBERTS: My question was if I remember correctly, when Mr Chairman asked you a question regarding who the driver of that taxi was, you said only you.

MR MKHIZE: I meant when I was not working I used to drive it. When not, Thulani would drive it.

MR ALBERTS: The question was put to you whether this Mthethwa ever drove the vehicle and you said: "Oh no" only you are the driver. Are you changing your evidence now?

MR MKHIZE: That is a mistake.

MR ALBERTS: Did this Mthethwa also drive the car from time to time?

MR MKHIZE: It never happened even once that Qeda drove my vehicle.

MR ALBERTS: If you say when you moved to the suburbs you forgot about the area but you also say every weekend or on your off days you drove the vehicle there and back as a taxi?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question? I didn't hear the question.

MR ALBERTS: The witness stated earlier in his evidence that when he moved to the suburbs I think his words were he put that area behind him, giving the impression that he had nothing further to do with the area but now he says on his off days he is a taxi driver and he drives on that route on all his off days.

CHAIRPERSON: Because of the violence in that area he left ...(inaudible)

MR MKHIZE: I do not understand the question because on that day I was on the road the whole day.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR ALBERTS: You only left after this - I'm sorry, you left before this incident of the shooting, you left the area and went to live in the suburbs, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR ALBERTS: I just want to confirm; your earlier evidence was you only left to go and live in the suburbs some time after this incident where your vehicle was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, he said: "But when the violence started I moved away to the suburbs." Now: "When the violence started" might mean the general violence in that area it might mean this incident. Now I think that if you want to clear that up what you might ask really is; did you move, were you living in the suburbs at the time of this incident?

MR ALBERTS: At the time of this incident where your vehicle was attacked, were you living in the suburbs by then?

MR MKHIZE: Let me explain that my mother was still staying in the area and I was running a business. I did not forget that there were people staying there.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR ALBERTS: And you also said that when you moved to the suburbs you put the area behind you.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the area?

MR MKHIZE: ...(no English translation)

MR ALBERTS: This taxi route that you take does it go into that area? Just maybe to clear that up.

MR MKHIZE: No. It was not reaching the area where people liked to attack each other.

MR ALBERTS: Isn't that where you were attacked, in the area where you were staying?

CHAIRPERSON: But I think that really you want to know on that day if it is clear that he was the driver and Nxedi, isn't that the end of the matter?

MR ALBERTS: Yes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. He says that on that day he was lucky he got out alive and wasn't killed, so he was the driver.

MR ALBERTS: Yes Mr Chairman, I am just trying to establish on other days as well. That is also relevant. What is your relationship with this Mthethwa?

MR MKHIZE: I was not related to Qeda. We just grew up together, even with the applicants here. I then moved to the suburb and left them there.

MR ALBERTS: Thank you Mr Chairman, nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink are there any questions you wish to put?

MR BRINK: No, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: You have ...(inaudible) to say yes.

MR MALAN: I just want this one question to be, for the sake of my peace of mind answered finally, how would you know that Mthethwa never drove your vehicle or have never driven your vehicle if it was in the control of another driver?

MR MKHIZE: If I am at work, I would not know what happens to my vehicle.

MR MALAN: Was the other driver a permanent driver, this Thulani Zimu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Would any one from time to time stand in for him, drive on his behalf?

MR MKHIZE: It would happen that Ndaba Cebekhulu drive my car.

MR MALAN: Could Mthethwa have driven the taxi?

MR MKHIZE: I cannot say, but as far as I know, he never drove it. But one cannot know what the drivers do when one is at work.

MR MALAN: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions?

ADV MOTATA: Just one. Mr Mkhize you said you moved to the suburbs because there was violence. In which areas was there violence?

MR MKHIZE: I was born in Mboyi. Violence then started and people left the area. I then moved to the suburbs for safety of my children.

ADV MOTATA: Now within this area when you say violence was it gangster related or was it organisation against organisation?

MR MKHIZE: I did not know what was happening because one would just wake up in the morning and find a person dead. When you ask who killed that person, there would be no answer. I then realised that I might also be a victim and the best thing for me was to leave the area.

ADV MOTATA: In respect of political organisations, that is the IFP and ANC do you bear knowledge of which organisation was dominant in the Ziboya area?

MR MKHIZE: It was the IFP in Mboyi at that time. One cannot say the killings were done by the IFP or the ANC, but it is still going on.

ADV MOTATA: How long after the violence had taken place in that area did you move out to the suburbs?

MR MKHIZE: I stayed there for some time, and when I saw that the killings were going on, I decided to leave.

ADV MOTATA: Now I am asking you an opinion here, if you can't answer this please say so. Whilst you were living in the area was there talk that the ANC and perhaps the IFP were attacking each other? Did you ever hear something of that nature?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. That happened but eventually I left because people were killed mysteriously.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think that really the purpose of that question is that. I think the purpose of the question is to find out from you whether it was well-known that in that area there was on-going conflict between the ANC and the IFP.

MR MKHIZE: There were political differences and people started killing each other.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, my question was that it is well-known in that area that there was this conflict.

MR MKHIZE: It was well known yes, because other people had left the area and were staying in tents in Pietermaritzburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that answer your question?

ADV MOTATA: ...(inaudible)

MR MALAN: Can I just follow up on that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly.

MR MALAN: Mr Mkhize do you support a political organisation?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR MALAN: At the time of the incident were you a supporter of the one or the other organisation?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR MALAN: This Mr Thulani Zimu do you know him well?

MR MKHIZE: I will not say I know him that well because I am married and have children and Thulani does not have children.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Mkhize did you vote during the last elections in April 1994? Did you vote for any political party?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: Which party did you vote for?

MR MKHIZE: ANC.

MR MALAN: Do you know whether Mr Zimu voted and where he voted?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know because he is a bachelor and I am married.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, thank you very much. You are excused from further attendance. Thanks for coming and volunteering to give evidence when requested to do so. ...(indistinct)

MR MKHIZE: Thank you, too.

WITNESS IS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink isn't it a convenient stage to take the adjournment?

MR BRINK: Yes, Mr Chairman it is. I don't know, possibly my colleague could give an indication how long he proposes being with the second application in this matter because?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I am prepared to carry on but I want to take into account the people that operate, the interpreters, the people that operate this equipment and so on. They may have transport problems.

MR BRINK: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BRINK: Possibly if we can adjourn just for a few minutes then I can ascertain whether after the break they are prepared to carry on.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well I will stand down for a little while.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) of carrying on until a little later this afternoon but the prospect of finishing the evidence of a witness between now and 5 o'clock is remote and therefore we have decided that we are now going to adjourn and we will resume promptly at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. I trust that counsel will make themselves available in time with their witnesses and everybody else so that we can promptly begin at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. Will that be convenient to you?

MR ALBERTS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Very well we now adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS