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Type AMNESTY HEARINGS
Starting Date 07 April 1998
Location EAST LONDON
MR PRIOR: The Amnesty Applications of Mr Xundu and two others proceeds. As the Committee will recall Mr Xundu finished his evidence, however this morning, one of the victims requested that two questions be put to him through the Committee and those questions were written down. Obviously, that's at the discretion of the Committee and the timing of or putting of those questions are at the Committee's discretion. Thank you sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Having read the questions, it seems to me that they are a matter of his beliefs rather than of fact and that will, in no prejudice in recalling him later after the present applicant who is sitting up here has completed his evidence.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't know what will be the approach today because the applicant before the Committee is Thobela Mlambisa and Mr Chairman his application is not before the Committee in the true sense of the word because it was submitted yesterday with an affidavit to that effect and I think it will be proper that we will have to first to deal with that aspect of his application being submitted late.
Chairman, is that he has applied initially and he became aware that his application is not before the Committee when, during the hearing of St James. After the hearing of St James he then approached me, Mr Chairman, to follow up his lost application so that he can be in a position to reapply because the date was extended. So I followed up with the TRC. The TRC told me that he was referred from the Executive Secretary that they have the application because I was - I specifically mentioned that regarding the Golf Club incident. But only when this matter has been set down I was by Ms Tanga who is from TRC, she told me that the application Mr Coetzee made a mistake, that application he referred to was the one regarding St. James. So there was that mistake, Mr Chairman and that's the reason why he now applied late because you made a follow up to check, to make sure that there's no repetition of St James.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, it was - the response I received was after the cut-off date, Mr Chairman but I was - in fact what happened was that I spoke to him telephonically, we were speaking telephonically and I wanted a confirmation in writing Mr Chairman. We're always communicating in writing with the Executive Secretary so I wanted confirmation in writing because they said the application is there, so I wanted something in writing. So then on the 16th September he confirmed in writing that it was registered, the application.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, according to my information, Mr Chairman, as indicated here it was done through one form. They were imprisoned then in Pollsmoor when Mr Mphaglele and Mr Arendse went there to make them fill application forms regarding the bail application - they wanted to make bail for them, to apply for them for bail. So they made it in one application for these two incidents.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman regarding Nkoma and others, they were not involved in Golf Club, Mr Chairman, that's why they applied for one incident but regarding Mr Mlambisa and Ngoba, the late Ngoba, they applied for the two incidents.
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman suffice to say that we made the query or the request yesterday and the documents that you've just referred to now - Nkumbusi and the other person - were sent. We now have sent a further request for them to raid the data base and also the filing system to see whether under any other reference number or any other name these persons made application.
CHAIRPERSON: What I propose to suggest is that we stand this application down so further enquiries can be made as to what were received. I'm doing this because in the affidavit handed in you say that they were visited by their legal representatives for purposes discussed in the St James' incident and they thereafter completed the forms which were submitted and we can proceed with the other applicants. They don't have the same difficulty do they?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, there's a facsimile attached to the affidavit, Mr Chairman which regards also other application where they were clarifying this issue and the last paragraph of the second page, on the last paragraph, they refer to Mr Ntintili and Mr Mlambisa.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman, I agree with you, it was the one which was done also because of the problem we are encountering as the same as this one in the - during the application of St James. It was made that time because it was - and also they did not get the application which he made whilst he was in prison and it was done there.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct, Mr Chairman, I myself then I did not know that it was the same application I was involved, not involved but myself I enquired after the St James incident then I was enquired about the Golf Club incident, telling that Mr Mlambisa told me that he has applied whilst he was applying for St James incident. Now I want to know whether you did not manage to get that application form and that was the response that I received. I take it from there that they managed to get hold of that application but now whilst it was a week before this hearing I was told that it was wrong information, it was a mistake on their part.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'll do my best Mr Chairman because our witness Ntonga, I was still with Mr Ntonga when I was doing that, I will have to go to the offices of Mr Ntonga and get hold of the letter.
ADV. GCABASHE: Is it possible to get hold of, it might just assist us, Advocate Arendse, Mr Sisani and maybe Mr Paglele, just to sign short affidavits, that might assist us as well, if it possible for them just to fax something to you, confirming because they're the people you mention on page 24 and also in this affidavit as people who were there - if they are able to assist you.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'll do my best to get hold of them Mr Chairman but Mr Chairman I want to also put on record that the mere fact that the St James one was also made on the day of the hearing, I think it was accepted on the part of the TRC that it was indeed filed, the initial application was indeed filed with the office of the TRC because the other applicants which were with him when he made those applications whilst Mr Arendse was there were found in the office and on that basis I think the TRC accepted it that indeed the applications were filed but nobody knows what happened with them because the other applicants which were with him in prison and who filed - who applied for amnesty together with him - and applying for the same incident St James but himself he was applying also for Golf Club because he was charged and also a bail application has to be made for Golf Club so he has to do them the same time at Cape Town where he was kept so on that score it was accepted by the TRC that the applications were filed because other applicants who were with him, their applications were found but Mr Chairman, as I indicated, I will do my best to get hold of Mr Sisani in Pretoria and Mr Mphaglele and Advocate Arendse if I manage to get them. Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] regret that we should have to delay proceedings like this, this is a matter that should have been clarified weeks ago before this matter was set down for hearing. You should not have to be troubling yourself now with trying to contact people while conducting a hearing and I regret that the TRC did not raise the queries that are quite obviously there before setting the matter down for hearing when they did not have an application for amnesty in respect of it.
Mr Morrison I'll take you to some other portions of your affidavit to enable to clarify this to the Committee. Can we Mr Chairman go to paragraph 4 of his affidavit? I will read the last sentence Mr Chairman.
"I was given these arms by Comrade Tumiso and asked me to deliver them to Comrade Thembelani Xundu in Tembasa and advised me of the road that I should take in order to be safe. I was given a car and money for petrol."
MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you telling the Committee that your duties within APLA Logistics Department was concerned with arms and transport. Can you tell the Committee what you were doing with the arms and transport?
MR MORRISON: Guns or weapons at logistics - all the things that are supporting the soldiers what were busy at logistics, weaponry and transport. The transport was used to transport the weaponry and everything needed by the army soldiers upon the ground.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And now can you then tell the Committee regarding this incident which we are talking about in your affidavit that you were given these arms - can you take the Committee step by step what happened, what were you told in detail? How were you approached as you indicated here by Comrade Tumiso?
MR MORRISON: Comrade Ngoba told me that there are operations that are going to take place in the border region and that I am supposed to take weaponry to the border. They are going to take Thembelani Xundu at Tembasa.
MR MORRISON: I moved from Umtata, used the road going to Queenstown. Along the way there was a branch before you get to the first border gate at Transkei that time, it turns and goes to Cathcart, Stutterheim up to Tembasa.
MR MORRISON: That those weapons were used at the Golf Club I got to know after the operations at King William's Town. The King William's Town Golf Club was hit and I left the guns in the vicinity of King William's Town, that is Tembasa.
MR MORRISON: As I'm saying I was an APLA soldier so there was no compulsion that I must transport weapons because I joined APLA voluntarily. So it was one of my duties voluntarily in order to free our nation.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now after you have heard what happened after you left the arms in Tembasa that the Golf Club was attacked, what was your feeling, did you have a feeling that that was a wrong target or you were ...[inaudible] yourself at the Golf Club?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you take the last paragraph, paragraph 6 of your affidavit, I would just like to read the quote you have made there and I want you to explain to the Committee. I read it Mr Chairman.
"In conclusion I want to quote the words of the founding President of PAC, Robert ....[inaudible] when he said, 'We do not hate the whites because they are white, we hate them because they oppress us. Remove oppression, the hatred will go. It is therefore plain dishonesty to say I hate the sjambok not the person who is yielding it." Can you explain to the Committee what did you mean by that?
MR MORRISON: What this means is that white people are the ones who were instrumental in the oppression of our people at Azani, not oppressing them with a stone or using a huge stone over Africans. What they did proved that they oppressed the people. I remember on farms many people were killed by Boers, many an occasion small kids - there are things called ovens on farms - where small kids are thrown into those ovens and they burned to death there, childrens of Africa. Small money paid to people, my people, after having sweated a lot for Boers on farms, that is why we realised that Boers were very instrumental in the oppression of our people.
MR PRIOR: And also the white people that were helping uplift the black communities that were doing work in the black areas, you also regarded them as Boers and therefore the enemy of APLA. Is that right?
MR PRIOR: I want to refer you to page 121 of the paginated papers for your comment. There is a clipping from the Daily Despatch dated the 25th February 1993. I want to possibly just find out from you, if you can, why Mr Seneke said that Mr Sichomiso Nonkuba who had been arrested by police in the Transkei and held for two days had no connection with the Azanian Peoples Liberation Army - APLA?
MR MORRISON: As far as my thought go I do not say that's how Mr Seneke thought. The pain that you experienced as an APLA soldier after being arrested by the Apartheid or the oppressive government was not good or because the police were unable to extract information in ...[inaudible] manner. They could end up killing you without any proof as to what the reason for your death may have been, not knowing whether what you are giving them is correct. I think Africa Seneke when he said this was to ensure that the killers and the hit men of the South African Police men of those days must not prosecute our African comrade as they were prosecuting other Africans.
MR SANDI: One of the things you said in reply to the questions by Mr Prior, you said they were superior to you, do you mean that these were the people you were accountable to in terms of your duties as a logistics person?
MR PRIOR: I want you to try and assist us, can you maybe remember the date when you supplied these arms. We know that the attack occurred on the 29th November 1992, it was a Saturday. How long before that date did you supply the weapons?
MR PRIOR: Why did you then associate your conveying weapons in October with the King William's Town matter when you heard of it only later towards the end of November? Yes Mr Chairman, he said he associated his participation with that event. Did you say that?
MR PRIOR: You said when you heard about the King William's Town operation you associated yourself with that because you had supplied weapons, you associated the act of the weapons with that attack. Wasn't that your evidence?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think Mr Prior, what the applicant said was that after the attack at Golf Club because he had supplied arms, then he realised that those arms which were used there, it must be the arms which he supplied to Mr Xundu and also he went further that he associated himself with that because he was a member of APLA himself, he was participating ...[inaudible]
MR PRIOR: Yes I understand what you're telling me, the question to the witness is why did he make that association? Was that the only attack during that period or the only operation that APLA was busy with at the time.
MR MORRISON: I telling you and I'm saying the operation of King William's Town happened at Tembasa after I had passed those guns on to Thembelani at Tembasa, that's how I connected the attack and those guns.
MR PRIOR: No, but Mr Chairman with respect, he makes an association from weapons supplied at a time whether a month or more before this attack. I simply want to find out from the witness on what basis does he make that association.
MR PRIOR: I want to know your view on this - what political objective was achieved there or was sought to be achieved by attacking King William's Town Golf Club because we heard evidence yesterday that the victims that were targeted predominantly were senior citizens, elderly people at a Christmas function?
MR MORRISON: I think you are wrong when you say what happened at the Golf Club was a senior citizens function because there was somebody who testified that he was a member of the Special Force in the Airforce during the Government of - the Apartheid Government. There were some people who were like that who were present at those functions, policemen, army personnel, Mr Radu - I cannot remember his name properly, who was a Minister of the National Party.
MR PRIOR: Did you find out later that the reason for the attack was for that purpose because there were National Party Representatives, there were senior members of the Airforce, the were Senior Members of the Police Services and the army -that was the reason for attacking King William's Town? Sorry just to clarify the airforce story. Mr Stanford who was here, the elderly gentleman, had been in the Airforce for five years, obviously when he was a much younger person. Probably during the Second World War, the Korean War, some such time. He certainly wouldn't have been in a position to be in the Airforce in the more recent times so just let's...[inaudible]
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, also I don't know, maybe the Committee will clarify on this issue of this senior citizen. I don't think we have evidence to that effect, we have questions which were put by Mr Prior, there's no evidence put here that that party, under oath and which he was tested that it was a senior citizens party.
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, with respect, we're getting there - we're listening to the applicant's evidence, I will be leading evidence at the appropriate stage as to the true nature of the event on that evening but obviously for purposes of questioning the witnesses it's necessary to put what the evidence will be.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I agree with you fully on that aspect but Mr Chairman it is always, I think it's referred to Mr Stanford who was not even under oath, I also have myself questions for him because I have many questions about him also, you know, that's the problem I have if he refers to him and he was not under oath, we didn't have any chance to question him on some of the application he came up with.
CHAIRPERSON: One quite obviously can't accept as evidence what he said when he said "I saw you standing on the left" or something, but he can put to the witness "you were standing on the left" if he is subsequently going to lead evidence to that effect.
Mr Morrison I simply want to ask you and I wanted a simple answer, after you heard about the Golf Club, did you ever confirm with anybody, your Commander, Mr Xundu, Mr Ntcuba, that the reason for the attack on King William's Town Golf Club was because there was a Nationalist Party representative, there were high ranking Police Officials and so forth there - that was the reason for attacking the Golf Club because that seems to be your answer. I just want clarity.
MR MORRISON: What was an APLA operation that has occurred, there is no reason for APLA soldiers to make follow ups. It is Commanders and those involved have taken the decision that that target is alright. I was in logistics, had no reason to make follow ups as to why did you do that, it is wrong, here or there, there was no business of me going there, they've done what they did and they've finished.
MR DAVIS: This is less the question about understanding the sequence of events that led to the King William's Town attack as it is a question about the applicants beliefs and perspectives. I just refer to your quote from Robert Sebukwe in which he states that they hate whites not because they're white because they're oppressors. My question is just that now in 1998 do you feel things have changed? Do you still see whites as oppressors or not any more?
Well, Mr Ntintili is indicating that "I became directly involved in the APLA operation at King William's Town by harbouring the APLA operatives who sprung the attack. They were brought to me by Thembelani Xundu who was my student."
MR NTINTILI: It was on, I mean it was sometime beginning of the year in 1992 that Comrade Xundu came into my school and I found that he's a PASO members and of which I knew him from other activities of the PAC and in short, as a member of PASO, whenever he had problems he used to come to me.
MR NTINTILI: Now, in this case he asked me that I should organise accommodation for a number of Africans that arrived and I did so. It was not something that is surprising in the sense that in 1986, Comrade Mlambo had already declared that armed people liberate Azania and that clarion call was nothing else other than the fact that it was telling the Azanians that the freedom fighters, the God loving children of Africa were coming to defend God's creation, the repossession of the African soil and I wanted - it was those reasons that I had to give this assistance.
MR NTINTILI: I didn't know the specifics of their mission but one thing that I know, I know that they have come to honour that clarion call from the Chief of Operations, then, John Silemblambo, that is to arm the people and liberate Azania.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you have heard - the committee have heard that the - you've also said that the affidavit of Thembelani Xundu should be incorporated in yours in as far as it relates to you. Now in the affidavit of Thembelani Xundu, Thembelani Xundu told this Committee that he gave you arms after your operation at Golf Club at page 18, paragraph 22, there at the top "Xundu" that he gave weapons to you. When he gave these weapons to you did you know then that these weapons were used in the Golf Club?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now further to that paragraph, further to paragraph 23, Thembelani Xundu says that "On Tuesday I ordered Comrade Lungisumsi Ntintili to assist us dispose the car and it was for the first time that he had some knowledge about the operation, I ordered him to drive the Jetta and I drove his maroon Rover. He disposed the car at.." Now how did you become aware?
MR NTINTILI: It was on that evening when they came to my place and Thembelani came, I mean, was the one who got into the house and he asked me that I should give them the Rover and assist them in taking the car to a place where it would be destroyed and I immediately agreed and I gave him the key then he told me that I should drive the Jetta and he as well asked for some of the machines that he gave me and I just took him to the place where they were and he took two for them.
MR NTINTILI: Ja actually I was a little bit hesitant because when I looked at the car it was alright and as one of the people who was responsible in the PAC generally to organise some of the activities for ...[inaudible] and such things, I was concerned even in terms of even transport, transport in I mean between Port Elizabeth and here, all such things, even in his case he used to use public transport, now I was concerned that how can you destroy a car that is like this and such things and then he said no, this is the most wanted car and it is - we have been advised that he would need to destroy it and then, well, I didn't have questions so far then I just follow suit. Not forgetting that actually then thus he as well told me that the reason why it's wanted is because it's the car that was used in the operation and that satisfied me.
it's well covered. I got some boys there who were students in my school and they were - most of the times I was surprised by the way, because most of the times when I went there they used to hide themselves because they are in shebeens and I used to go straight to the shop and avoid to, I mean, to harass them if they are - I mean when I'm there - I mean that day I was surprised because they came straight to me and they were so excited and they told me that - I mean they asked me have you heard from the news and I asked them what? Then they said no, the Golf Club, the settlers have been attacked in the Golf Club and then by that time I was getting into the shop and another old man who was a member of the PAC also told me that and because I was coming from an evening party the last day from Mr Gazo's place and I told them that no manne, I didn't here about this thing and they said no that is it and later on T.V. when I was watching T.V. then it came that APLA has claimed the responsibility and that was it and I was also excited like those children because I thought that it is one of those clarion calls and it is a response and it is appropriate one.
MR NTINTILI: Ja, first and foremost as I've already said my students were rejoicing and they said settlers had been attacked and I think by the settler, they understood what is meant by the settler because the PAC had defined what a settler was and then I knew that the people who have been enjoying the fruits of inhumanity, social degradation of the African people, people who have been clapping hands upon murderous actions by the SADF and the South African Police were now also tasting what we have been tasting for three hundred years and to me that was a start of a clear revolutionary conflict which in my mind I was convinced that it is now that even the world will start to be reasonable and to listen and to apply and to listen to the demands of our liberation movement that the release of our leaders who are in prison, the unbanning of our organisations are the priority and at the need for this country to have harmony. It was along those lines that I felt, I thought of the history, I thought of the time when the Principal of the settlers in occupying Azania, that is Britain, didn't want to listen to the delegation in 1907 of men like Sol Plaaitjie the first Secretary General of the ANC. When they were pleading with them that all they have done, they have done but they must not take the right of the African people to own land away from them. When they came, having failed, which led to the Union of South Africa, when now they decided...[intervention]
MR NTINTILI: Now which led to the British, settlers, the principal of the settlers to tell their agents in the occupied Azania to unite so that they can isolate the African indigenous people away from their natural right which is the ownership of the land and once they finished that then they knew that now they can say you can pass a law and in 1913 a land act was passed and by that time, men like Sol Plaaitjie, decided to form an organisation which was the ANC and that was the high tide of the conflict but still the African people were peaceful. They were not perturbed, they were perturbed of course but still they forgave them for the actions of that they did, for the embarrassment that they did to my leader Bambata in the Bambata rebellion. Doing what in Vryburg today they were doing, some were killing the leaders in public. Now to me all that, what, the dates of killing the African people which were mentioned yesterday, all those things were coming into my mind and which justify, justifying the actions which were like that one of Golf Club.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Just for the record Mr Chairman, the question of arms which was interested in, I request the Committee, the questions the arms, that what happened to the arms will be subject to another hearing because to link the arms, Mr Chairman, to another. I won't like to pursue it, I want to pursue it but I know that it's linked to another application, Mr Chairman, to one of the hearings which are going to come before this Committee.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct Mr Chairman so the arms that were used in the Golf Club, Mr Chairman, I won't like the Committee to pursue that point because it will be getting to another application if we go to that point. Just a request, Mr Chairman, just for the record. Also myself, I would like to pursue it but I would like it because it has other implications.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think we are concerned with the Golf Club now immediately we are asked about the weapons, definitely we'll go indirectly what happened thereafter, they were used in another operation after the incident of the Golf Club that is why I was...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying not so much prejudice as that it is totally irrelevant that he admits he took possession of the weapons which he knew had been used in the Golf Club incident and we stopped there?
MR PRIOR: Mr Ntintili, I listened carefully to what you said a short while ago, you gave a long explanation as to why you felt justified in accepting what had happened at Golf Club and why you felt justified in giving the assistance that you gave to the unit that perpetrated the attack at the Golf Club. Do I understand you then to say that for those reasons you felt that was sufficient justification for the killing of at least four innocent people, people that had nothing to do with the military, were simply there - quite possibly at the wrong place at the wrong time - are you saying that that justified the killing of those four people?
MR PRIOR: Let's just not go into the historical, - no no, please - my questions very simple, you regard what you told us in that long statement that you made as sufficient justification for the killing of the deceased in the King William's Town Golf Club matter and you've heard what was put to the witnesses yesterday, those people in that dining room there as a part of a wine tasting club having their Christmas party, in the light of that, are you saying that there was, that was sufficient justification for their deaths?
MR PRIOR: Obviously you don't Mr and Mrs Davis, who they were? We heard submission put to Mr Xundu yesterday from the son that they were people that didn't vote in the election, they certainly weren't supporters of the Apartheid Government.
MR NTINTILI: Ja, actually, I happened to know his father, if it was the one who was working for the Ciskei Government as a doctor, I don't know whether he is. If that is the one, he's coming from the so called, from the former Rhodesia from the Smith Regime and the reason to come here is because he's one of the people who are not accepting the African majority rule and anyone who does not want to accept the African majority rule, whether it goes down then is going to get..[intervention]
MR NTINTILI: Is going to get the resistance, is going to get the anger of the African people because this revolution is not an isolated revolution from the revolution of the African people continentally. So for him to come down to Azania it was not excusing him from being colonized in Africa. Hence he was coming into Azania, he was coming because the colonial regime, the settler regime was still in power here so he wanted to continue enjoying the privileges are being a colonial settler in Africa now in Azania because Zimbabwe was free.
MR NTINTILI: Excuse me, can you refer yourself to number 3 of paragraph 8 where it is said that there's such to PAC had nothing to do with colour but one does physically in otherwise in promoting the criminal inhuman practices of Apartheid system qualified him as a settler within the context of the Azanian national revolution.
MR NTINTILI: In the world just I think last week there was a Felicia Mabusa-Suttle and there were people who were said to be Afro-Americans which those people were dark skinned and their origin is from Africa but they are born in America but they are still told that they are Africans in America but it is fine in Africa, Europeans who are in Africa, they don't want to be told that they are Europeans in Africa, they want to tell us about depth, depth, it is not depth that makes you belong to the nation but it is the indigenity to that particular land and God's creation in Genesis, God created people and after creating people in Genesis it is said that he took water and he made boundaries and different nations were created. Now if one decides to leave the land of his own creation and jump into another man's land then this is what I'm saying, it was against God's creation especially if one is enforcing himself upon the necks of the African people. That is against God's creation and APLA was the defender's of God's creation.
MR PRIOR: The question of the motor vehicle that was destroyed, may I just enquire I seems to recall that Advocate Gcabashe yesterday questioned Mr Xundu, put a question that there was some confusion where the vehicle was burned out on the Tuesday or on the same day of the attack. May I just enquire from the Committee?
MR NTINTILI: Actually, I was not talking about APLA I was talking about, I'm a member of the PAC and he was a member of the PAC so I was talking along the lines of being members of the PAC having a problem in transport and such things. Why can't we retain and such things then he told me that what I've said already.
MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Ntintili just lastly - the extent of your participation, you've said quite a lot here this morning but you only gave basically accommodation, is that right and then you assisted to the destroy the vehicle but that was after the attack, well after the attack? That is the extent of your participation?
ADV. GCABASHE: In fact the only point I want to clarify is the one on accommodation. You gave accommodation or you arranged for accommodation - so did they live with you or you simply arranged for them to live elsewhere?
MR NTINTILI: You know in PAC, in PAC general, because especially during the time of the banishment, what you are told by one member is only for you and that member. We used to form things like cells and if I recruit - if I'm recruited by this one then I recruit another one, I don't tell him who is that one that I've recruited but what you only do was circulate the literature. He gives me the literature because he is the person who recruited me. Now, it is along those lines that - I had that principle - I was used to that and I wouldn't ask someone from another department. The only department I used to go over is because I've got links with it, is passive, which is ...[inaudible] student of the PAC, it is only that one that I would discuss with Thembelani not any other person because only Thembelani was a student whom I schooled.
CHAIRPERSON: He's not fighting, he's qualifying as he's entitled to do ...[inaudible]. I merely saying I did not think he was fighting with the questioner, he was saying he accepts Tuesday but can't remember himself.
MR LAX: That's fine - so I'm trying to explain, it's not in dispute that it was on the Tuesday, you're perfectly entitled to qualify it. The question really in that context then is, did you not put two and two together, you had operatives, you had arranged accommodation for operatives, did you not put two and two together to say that those operatives had been involved in this operation that it happened?
MR NTINTILI: Ja because I knew from the approach of APLA that is outside, that they have already - I already said when I was starting to talk here that there was a clarion call by John Simbalambo and therefore I knew that there's a lot of APLA that has been infiltrated in the border and I wouldn't know who were responsible for that and it was not my duty to ask them.
MR LAX: So you didn't draw any conclusions from the fact that you'd arranged accommodation for operatives, you knew that they were going to carry out some operation, on an operations happens but you didn't put two and two together?
MR NTINTILI: You know I didn't have time for that because already I think I was writing an exam, Thembelani was just after writing exams and I was writing my own exams at Fort Hare and the role that I played was not something special or something that I was afraid of so I didn't have any fear of anything therefore, I didn't have any compulsions and all such things about these things, it was just one of those things normally, I didn't have anything special about it.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Just to offer assistance Mr Chairman, I think the applicant here has sued the police in the Grahamstown High Court for that but I think he ran out of funds I understand so he couldn't pursue his application.
MR NTINTILI: I'm sorry, I wish to comment on this. I'm perturbed to find a man who is serving on this Commission to use any information that he sees and is coming from the murderers and I take that man that he was enjoying the murderers actions that were made to us and because we don't have money we couldn't challenge, we couldn't challenge those murderers and because of this negotiated settlement, this sunset clause, they were given money by this government so that they can be covered so that we cannot expose the brutalities they have been making to the African people through all these three hundred years and for anyone who is using that information in this platform then that person needs to apologise to the Azanian people because he's not supposed to use it.
ADV. GCABASHE: If I might just interject here Mr Ntintili through you Chair, we as an Amnesty Committee and as a TRC, certainly Mr Prior, have to source information wherever we can get it, we have a difficulty in sourcing information. I would simply like you appreciate the fact that there are as, it's quite obvious, a lot of SAP material that we have to rely on simply because we want these applications to be processed and I want would like you to accept that our bona fide is in using information that is given to us and challenge it where you are able to. It's your right to do that but we need to process these applications on the basis of what information does come before us.
MR DAVIS: This is actually not a question, I would just like to make a matter clear to the Commission. I obviously found it disturbing that Mr Ntintili implied that my father was a justified target in this attack on the basis that he was an immigrant from Zimbabwe. He had no association with Zimbabwe at all, I just want to make that clear to the Commission. Thank you.
Yes I believe that the incident served to make the white people in South Africa realise that a revolutionary violence is perpetrated by the APLA forces and the PAC is right in their doorsteps and that ...[inaudible] has phsyco-political effects in that it broke the confidence of the white community over the ability of the security network, complicated, sophisticated as it was, to protect them. Rather than on that point if my memory serves me well there was once a comment in the Daily Despatch by General Kat Liebenberg to the effect that the South African Defence Force doesn't have the capability to protect each and every individual white as they expected and as it seems to be the demand therefore that on it's own created contradictions in terms of interest for the first time in the history of this country, that the government and it's constituency cannot move in one perfect step in terms of political interest. It is logical therefore to say that the government on account of such pressures had to speedily negotiate out power to prevent such operations being conducted against their constituencies and establishment.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and I think you have in fact answered the second question already which is do you believe that your actions hastened the political settlement in South Africa and I think you have just told us that you do think it.
In the information available to us at the present time it appears there was an application lodged at some stage in the past at the offices of the TRC. We are unable to ascertain at the present time with any certainty precisely what that application or applications were. Whether it was one application in respect of the St James' incident or more than one application that is one covering today. We have not as yet received copies of the letter which I defined of the 15th September. It seems to me, however and I have discussed this with the members of the Committee that the proper course for us to follow would be to continue with the hearing subject to us having raised the point. Well, I think you raised the difficulty before we did that that is a matter that will have to be decided but it can be decided later. I will assure you that if any information becomes available to us that would in any way prejudice your client, we would supply you with that information and ask you to make any representations you desire to do before acting on it. But subject to that reservation I think we can just continue with the hearing.
Now you have told the Committee that you were part of the group that attacked Golf Club, can you tell the Committee how did you manage to be at Tembasa and be part of that group that attacked Golf Club on October 28th?
MR MLAMBISA: I was in Umtata when I got that information that I should go to Tembasa. I got that information from the Regional Commander, Tsomiso, the Regional Commander at the time who said I must quickly go to King William's Town. I must quickly go to power, a person who was called Mandla who was a Logistic Officer. Mandla gave me some money and he instructed me to go to King William's Town and there was Thembelani Xundu at King William's Town. I can't remember the date but I boarded a taxi from King William's Town, from Umtata to King William's Town. When I arrived in King William's Town next to the rank that's it's where I met Thembelani Xundu.
MR MLAMBISA: That is very easy. When you arrived at the battlefield, I mean the border region, I told myself that when I leave, when I'm going to South Africa, I've got to do my job as a member of APLA in South Africa. We used to go for training we had strategy, we had to attend the political classes also.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now evidence has been, there was a question yesterday here which was directed to Mr Xundu regarding the postponed that the report he wrote that the operation was postponed once. Can you tell the Committee, were you aware of such things that there was a postponement of this operation?
MR MLAMBISA: This is the one of King William's Town because it did not take place, the only operation was postponed because of weather it was raining, the target was to be an SADF members who were holding a party, I don't know who those people are, I was told by Tumiso Nononga that the operation should be postponed because the target itself, the boers who were to be killed were not available at the time and because of the weather the operation was to be postponed and we had to go back to our place that the only operation that I know that was postponed. At no stage that the Golf Club operation was postponed.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now let's go to paragraph 5 of your affidavit at page 33, Mr Chairman. "The first time I was told which target was to be hit was on the day of the operation." Now can you tell the Committee what when you were told, what did you do, you were told about the target, what was your reaction, did you object, whatever was - happened at the time when you were told about the target?
MR MLAMBISA: As I have already told that I was a member of APLA and I had no objection. I was forced to undertake an operation. The question of the Golf Club, there was no need for me to object. I took instructions from the Commander but I was compelled, though I was willing. I didn't do that because of orders, I did that because I was willing, as a member of APLA I was forced to do the job.
MR MLAMBISA: As I have already said that I was a member of APLA and a member of PAC even up till date. At that time, during the time we were attacking the golf course in King William's Town, I wanted to make sure that all the cadres would be free to escape and no casualties and my job was to secure them inside the Golf Club and I had to ensure that because where I actually parked the Jetta, I did not escape leaving the cadres, I tried to drive slowly to make sure that they all get a chance to get into the car.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Well now Mr Mlambisa, are you telling this Committee that in all what you're Committee is that you participated in the incident at Golf Club willingly because you believe in what you were doing? Is that correct?
MR MLAMBISA: That is not correct, we requested him to give us the car but asked in such a manner that we were not threatening him, we just asked him to give us the car and he would get the car at a certain time but he became stubborn and he threatened us and Comrade Thembelani ended up pointing him with a gun to threaten him so that he can give us the car.
MR MLAMBISA: To take a car by force, we were not actually taking the car by force, it was not our car it was his but he was stubborn and we were forced to point him with a gun so that he can give us the car.
MR PRIOR: Well it sounds to me that - I don't think it takes the matter any further - it just seems to me that you did what you liked there, you didn't respect the view or the wishes of the owner. But in any event, you then burnt the car on a Tuesday, you actually destroyed it. The Tuesday after the attack you destroyed the car, it was burnt out, was it not?
MR PRIOR: Yes and I'm moving on to the Tuesday, you may not have been there but you heard the evidence of your leader, your unit leader Mr Xundu yesterday and Mr Ntintile's evidence this morning. The vehicle wasn't taken back or wasn't left where the owner could obtain back or cede it back into his possession - it was destroyed.
MR PRIOR: I apologise Advocate Prior, my role ends after -when the time I left for Butterworth. When the decision was taken that the car would be taken to Queenstown and it would be destroyed there, I don't know anything about that, I only know about the time when I took the car to Butterworth. If you ask me about that I'll answer you.
I want to refer you to page 61 of the bundle, the document that we obtained and it said "aristocratic democratic rules of APLA" - 15 rules and one of the rules that strikes me is the fourth rule that says: "Do not forcibly take or demand anything from the masses of the people." Are you familiar with that rule?
MR PRIOR: Yes, alright, let me ask the question. Was this rule not applied or considered when you pointed a gun at the owner of the Jetta vehicle in Butterworth? It seems to me that your unit just forgot about the rules.
MR MLAMBISA: I'm going to say that to you Advocate Prior, we didn't actually threaten the guy at first but we actually requested him to give us his car - we had a mission to undertake. After the mission was completed we would take the car back to him but he refused, even the police are like that when they arrest you. If you don't tell the truth what they do they try to investigate you and if you refuse to tell the truth they will arrest you. Even the advocate and Judge Wilson know that such things are happening. We initially asked him but we didn't actually tell him that we would kill him but we were just threatening him.
MR PRIOR: Let's go a bit further, wasn't the threat even more than just pointing a gun it was letting him believe that if he didn't give you the vehicle, you would use the firearm. In other words inspiring some fear of injury or even death in his mind? Isn't that closer the truth?
MR MLAMBISA: To clarify this further, the owner of the car, we actually threatened him after he refused to give us the car we took him by force and we drove inside the car and we drove the car and Comrade Xundu gave me the keys and we drove the car up to as far as Tsomo and we actually dropped him there so that he couldn't get a chance to get to the police so that we can continue with our journey. I'm trying to say our aim was not to kill him. All we needed was to get his car and he would get his car at a later stage. We threatened to kill him, that's when we decided to take him with us in the car and we left him somewhere on the way to King William's Town.
MR MLAMBISA: I think Comrade has explained this thing if I heard him clearly that his intention was to take the car back to Queenstown and leave the keys perhaps under the seat or whatever but because he was under pressure, there are a lot of roadblocks, there was confusion but his intention was to take the car to Queenstown. That rule No. 8 was actually his intention.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes but I cannot understand, perhaps you can explain, I should have asked him, once he became under this pressure and realised the police were looking for him that he was under pressure, why didn't he just abandon the car in Tembasa and drive away in your car?
CHAIRPERSON: He came back and told you he was going to destroy the car. Can you give us any reason why that should have been done instead of merely driving the car down one of the streets in Tembasa and leaving it there, why was it necessary to
MR PRIOR: You indicated that the only operation that was postponed was the one I think was in Tembasa, it was supposed to have happened in Tembasa. That was before the King William's Town attack. Did you know the identity of the target there?
MR MLAMBISA: No I didn't know the place but it was somewhere in Tembasa. What happened Comrade Thembelani and Ngoba they left on that particular day of this postponement, they came back, they said we are going to undertake an operation where there would be SADF members who would be celebrating there but it seemed like they were not there therefore the operation had to be postponed, that's the end.
CHAIRPERSON: No you've just agreed with Mr Prior it was well before the King William's Town operation when you were giving your evidence in chief you said it was postponed just before the attack on the Golf Club?
MR MLAMBISA: I would like to add on that, so that you can be satisfied Advocate Prior, when I left Transkei, crossing the borders of Kei Mouth I knew that I was going to South Africa and I even knew the operation that would take place there. Every day I would ask Commanders because I knew that I was here to fight I was going to kill the whites that's what I would like to add.
MR MLAMBISA: Mr Chairman, I didn't know the operation but I knew that when I leave Transkei even if I take the Kei Mouth route or Queenstown coming to South Africa I knew that I'm going to be undertaking an operation. It's not that I know, I knew the specific operation.
MR LAX: Well you see I just want you to be careful because what has just been translated to us was that you knew the operation, not you knew you were going to carry out operations, you knew the operation, so you must be very careful what language you use when you answer these questions otherwise we could have confusion. You could end up saying something you didn't mean to say.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I also want to add I'm sorry that when he speaks about - he differentiate between operation and the target. When he refers to operation he means that any operation not necessary the target of whatever operation.
MR LAX: With all due respect his previous evidence was that he knew that he was going to go and kill whites so it just doesn't add up so maybe he can explain this for us because he's getting himself deeper and deeper into a knot.
ADV. SANDI: You mean to say that whenever you're given instructions by your superiors to go wherever you're being told to go, your understanding is that there must be some work or duty to be preformed? Is that what you're saying?
MR MLAMBISA: Mr Chairman, ...[inaudible] or I could leave Transkei, secondly there was a lot of work that I was doing for APLA, I could leave Transkei and fetch APLA members elsewhere in South Africa as I was a driver of the organisation APLA to take cadres from Queenstown for example to Transkei.
MR MLAMBISA: I never got to know beforehand. What I only knew was that there must be a mission not necessary an operation, there is a mission I must undertake by leaving Transkei, when I left Transkei.
MR PRIOR: I still don't understand your reply when I asked you and you said as I recall it, when you left, when you crossed the Kei you were coming to kill whites? Did you say that? Did you say that, can you remember saying that?
MR PRIOR: Alright, but now the Golf Club matter occurred on the 28th November 1992 and you applied for amnesty, well you applied for amnesty in the St James matter which was July 93. So this matter, the King William's Town Golf Course was the first matter that you were called to assist in where whites were killed or people were killed - is that not correct?
CHAIRPERSON: Well, did you listen to Mr Prior's question? He said that the Golf Course matter was the first matter that you were called to assist in where whites were killed and your reply was that is not so.
MR PRIOR: Yes, I was just trying to explore what you had in your mind when you were called to go to Tembasa. If you knew at that stage you were going to kill whites, then you must have been told about the operation or something about the operation in Transkei before you left. That's what I'm driving at because your previous activities was simply to drive comrades around the country side not to kill people. So my question is - were you told, if you say you came across the Kei to kill whites in the Republic, what were you told before you left, what was your mission going to be - you must tell us about that please?
MR MLAMBISA: When I left Umtata, Comrade Tsetomelo, may be repeated this, Comrade Tsetmelo said I must board a taxi and come to Tembasa at King William's Town next to Nick's Food. There I'll find Comrade Xundu, the one I found when got to King William's Town next to Nick's Food.
MR PRIOR: Mr Mlambisa, is it not true that were in fact told before you left what your mission was, you were going to kill white people in a certain area. That's why you gave up that evidence and really if you're making full disclosure doesn't really effect your application, it may probably strengthen your application so there's no trick to it. These questions are being asked to see whether you're telling us the full truth.
MR PRIOR: Alright, I just want to ask you finally, was there any plan in place if the mission had been a failure in other words if something had gone wrong on the operation what was the strategy, what were you supposed to do as the driver of the vehicle. In other words, let me give you a more concrete example. The operation was carried out as if the King William's Town Golf Club was a military target. If resistance had been met there, let's say your comrades who had entered the premises had been shot and been prevented from coming out, what did you have to do as the driver?
MR MLAMBISA: I was a force member on the ground. As forces on the ground don't get briefed by comrades of APLA I knew nothing about the operation at the Golf Club until the day we were supposed to go on the attack at the Golf Club that's when we were told. We went to a final recognisance before the attack could be undertaken on, that's where we were told how the attack is going to be carried on.
MR PRIOR: Are you denying what I'm putting to you, you can admit or deny it? I'm suggesting to you that that was the position - seems to be the position because you had no alternative plan, I mean you're a military unit, there was no alternative plan because you weren't expecting any resistance there. Is that correct?
MR MLAMBISA: To answer that, Mr Chairman, that I expected or did not expect and prepared an alternative, I did not know a thing about that. I only know that I was a member on the ground and mine was to do the job of the Azanian Peoples Liberation Army under the commands of my instructors.
MR LAX: Well you see, your evidence earlier was that you went on that operation, it was dark, you couldn't see where you were going it was raining and you came back, that's why it was postponed, that was your earlier evidence. So you did actually start it but you aborted it?
MR MLAMBISA: I think there's a problem here. What I said we never got - went there - only the commanders went there and they gave us a report that no we're not going to go there anymore, the operation is postponed.
MR LAX: See, let me just help you, let me just help you so you don't get confused here. You were asked "you know that place where that operation was?" You said "No, it was so dark, it was raining, we couldn't see the place, that's why we postponed the matter. That was your earlier evidence.
MR MLAMBISA: That's what we got from our commander. I say it through my own mouth that that's what our commanders told us that we cannot go on that operation because they cannot find the target we must postpone the operation because of weather conditions, it was raining.
MR LAX: You see the issue is the operation wasn't postponed because you couldn't find the target, the operation was postponed because the SADF didn't arrive at the target area and therefore weren't available. You knew the target area - the people you were to attack weren't there because it was raining, that's why it was postponed so what you're saying just doesn't make sense.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think what is being said by Mr Mlambisa, what he's trying to say but he's putting the other way around that we couldn't find the target not to say that because it was raining the South African Defence Force postponed the activity because it was raining, now he's putting other way round that we didn't find the target.
CHAIRPERSON: So there's a big difference between we couldn't find it and the people weren't there and when he gave his evidence in chief and you led him, as you well know I think, he said the target was not available, they weren't there because it was raining. Started off telling us that the only operation that was postponed was postponed because of the weather. Do you remember that evidence and what he is now saying is our leaders came back and said they couldn't find target. A very different version - that's what my friend's asking about.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman I would only be able to explain the two, that when I was leading him he said that it was raining but when it comes to the question that he came, he also explained that, the reason why it was postponed that's what he was told by his commanders when they went there.
MR LAX: The other issue I wanted to raise arising out of this bit of evidence was that Mr Xundu told us that he wasn't involved in that operation in any way whatsoever. That was his evidence and you've told us that he went with, Ncoba and checked out the place?
MR MLAMBISA: I think Comrade Xundu has explained well yesterday, he was asked about his handwriting that appeared on that report and he said he does remember and he explained there was an operation that was postponed not the one of the Golf Club incident.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I think it will be different in the application that maybe I'm subject to speculation, that he was not involved because they never, the operation was never executed, that's how I interpreted it, because it was never executed so they were never involved in it, they never executed the operation, that's how I interpret it when he says he was never involved.
MR LAX: You see, there's just one problem here, initially I thought you said this operation was going to happen in King William's Town because where you would expect to find the SADF. Tembasa was part of the Ciskei, you wouldn't find the SADF in the Ciskei, so please clarify this for us?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think to add more, I think Mr Xundu indicated that it was a time of Brigadier Gozo and they were re-enforcements so the South African Defence Force was all over, was also involved and also in Ciskei in the former Ciskei.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman that is all on the side of the applicants at this stage Mr Chairman as we indicated yesterday that we're still going to arrange for the evidence of the leaders with Mr Prior to give evidence before the Committee regarding all 0this.
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may we deal with the, I don't know, depending, subject to what the Committee says, with the application the technical aspect of the application because I've handed up a photocopy of the letter sent on 15th September '97.
CHAIRPERSON: This letter confirms what you have told us, that is that you specifically wrote and drew the TRC's attention to the fact that Mr Thobela Mlambisa was applying for the Golf Club incident and the St James incident.
MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, may we take before I proceed, may we take the adjournment now and reconvene earlier, it's nearly twenty to one, we can reconvene at half past one. I'd like to confer with some of the victim's and to find out precisely what, who wants to, if anyone wants to give evidence, the ambit of that evidence and explain to them what the procedure is.
CHAIRPERSON: And we will adjourn now but if you feel you need longer time than half past one, let us know and by all means consult fully with everybody and decide what is to take place, there's no need to rush things.
MR KIECK: Prior notice would have had to been obtained - that depends if the golf - if that particular Saturday afternoon wasn't booked for any specific date and then when Mr Radie asked what Saturdays are available, at short notice he would get a day but normally they're two months in advance the Saturdays are taken.
MR PRIOR: Now, it's common cause and you've heard the evidence that the applicants, being members of APLA, had carefully planned an attack on the King William's Town Golf Club which was launched round about 10 o'clock that evening, is that correct?
MR KIECK: We'd had a very pleasant evening up until that point, we were just in the process of serving port at the end of the dinner when I noticed the swing doors being opened and two gentlemen crawl in. They then rose to their feet then I saw the firearm, the rifle come up and shots were fired. There was a tremendous explosion and they disappeared and then there was another explosion almost simultaneously or few seconds afterwards elsewhere in the club. The windows and the doors all swung open, glass was flying around. I then noticed two people run past me in the passage to the front door. I then quickly moved to the bar area where I found the patrons on the bar side all huddled up and shaken up, taking cover.
MR KIECK: That's correct. They were very fortunate there was a doctor in the bar at the time who was off duty so he was, you know, he was there immediately, probably took him a little while after he was shaken but calls went to hospitals, police to get, summon help.
MR PRIOR: Alright I just want to come back then to the - sorry if I may just show you EXHIBIT C. Mr Sunday could give me his copy I've leant my copy to one of the victims. Have you gone through EXHIBIT C as far as the photographs are concerned which give an idea of the club?
MR PRIOR: And also affixed to the last page is there a plan, floor plan, of the clubhouse setting out the various areas, you know the offices and the various facilities at the clubhouse and that seems to be made by the police. Is that correct?
Mr Kieck if you could - you've heard the evidence given by the applicants in particular the applicant Mr Xundu that in essence the target was or the information was that on this evening Mr Radie, the Nationalist Member of Parliament and his entourage which would have included other high ranking citizens whether of the Nationalist Party or the Police Services or the Army would have been in attendance? You heard that evidence?
MR KIECK: Well Mr Radie himself organised the Gold Day, I think he did have the Member of Parliament from East London, Mr Billy Nel at the Golf Day, I think they played golf, other than that there wasn't anybody else of any significance, normal club members maybe one or two visitors.
MR KIECK: Yes, certainly, being a small community, members of the Golf Club and members of the Wine Circle, some of them are members of both and those that were involved in the Golf in the afternoon just moved across to the lounge in the evening and there would have been quite a number of them.
MR PRIOR: Reference was made to senior citizens by Mr Xundu and the Committee explained via, Mr Lax explained what white people understand by senior citizens. Are you able to just give us an idea of the age group of the people attending the dinner, or was it a mixed group.
MR KIECK: Oh, it was a mixed people, there were some young, when I say young from about 30 to 60, 60 odd. Senior citizens - there might have been some senior members of the community present as well. The word senior as I heard it in the earlier they weren't the elderly people, it was a mixed bunch of people.
MR KIECK: Because I see it or as I remember it from the evening, two people entered the clubhouse, two people must have attacked the club from the outside because the Molotov Cocktails were thrown at the lounge windows and the Uzi was used at the bar window. I don't think the same person could have done that.
MR KIECK: Just below the lounge windows it houses the gas bottles for the shower and Molotov Cocktails were lobbed at those windows with either the intent to go inside or to drop them onto the gas bottles so that they would explode as well.
MR KIECK: The Uzzi was directed at the bar doors on the bottom end of the bar which lead out onto a balcony. Mr Chairman, if you would like to refer to the photograph, number photo 70, could give you a good picture of where the Molotov Cocktails were thrown.
MR LAX: You refer to some people, these people appearing through some doors you said and then standing up...[inaudible] MR KIECK: If you have a look at the map as you come into the stairs, into the main entrance of the clubhouse, you get "kantoor" the little office and one further on. Now those two entrances are closed with fold swing doors. They entered through the second door, that's the last door opposite the bar door.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, just before I'll ask questions I want to add to what has been said Mr Chairman, I think it was indicated that there were five people, the fifth on was a driver. Two were outside, the other one if I still remember, Xundu, explained that they were at the back but we didn't know, myself, what the back of the Golf Club is when he explained who was Mbeki, that is Vito Mbeki were outside so it's not in dispute that there were four of them, the two who entered the Golf Club inside. The two were outside, the other one was in the car, the fifth one was driver. Thank you Mr Chairman.
MR LAX: Perhaps we can just clarify here because we've been using this word senior citizens, are you talking about prominent people or elderly people? Let's maybe use those terms so that we don't confuse the issue.
MR KIECK: Yes, it's not affordable to everybody, you know, golf is - if you're playing golf regularly you've got to be earning a reasonable amount of money because the cost of maintaining and belonging to the Golf Club is rather expensive.
MR KRIECK: Yes Mr Mbandazayo, I was Captain of the Golf Club, I became Captain in 1986. This was my seventh year as Captain and I had Caddie Committee going so that they could look after themselves and we set a price and then we see that it's adhered to and according to Xundu when he carried the bag he only got paid 20 cents. On the 5th October in '92 I had a meeting with the caddies, it was myself as Captain, Mr Dorrington as the President of the Club and Mr Max Stimelo who is a prominent black member of the club, where we sat down and discussed the increase and what we'd expect of them and what they want of us and that we did on a three/four times a year basis.
MR MBANDAZAYO: With the permission of the Committee thus EXHIBIT D of the Golf Club, especially I think it will be, Mr Chairman, Centenary, the one address 1892 - 1992 Centenary. Now, Mr Chairman, ...[inaudible] Club, more caddies can apply to be rated. Now those caddies who were paid this amount you agreed were caddies who were rated?
MR KIECK: No, no, all caddies were paid that amount, that was the minimum amount a member had to pay a caddie if he used a caddie. We introduced another system where - to try and grade the caddies - so that in other parts you grade your caddie A, B and C and they get paid accordingly. What we introduced was that once the caddies were graded, they would then be given a shirt with an Aloe on it which is the King William's Town emblem. If they caddied a bag their tip would be extra, they were classed as A caddies and they were also entitled to use the course free of charge on the 1st and 3rd Tuesday of every month to give them a chance to practice.
MR KIECK: Oh yes, there wasn't you know that - if they wanted to come and bring a bag, Mr Xundu said he came along and said he was a student - the caddie committee would have let him do so, it was at their discretion.
MR KIECK: No I can't dispute that he wasn't paid 20c but I couldn't believe that he could be paid 20c because no member at King William's Town would pay that kind of money, I mean quite honestly no caddie would take a bag for 20c.
MR PRIOR: Not specifically, but this document has been referred to - this centenary celebration letterhead. For what it's worth may it be handed up unless the Committee thinks it's not necessary? But it certainly confirms what Mr Kieck has testified about. It may also effect the probabilities in this matter.
MR KIECK: They elected their own committee, the caddies did, I had a meeting with all of them, I explained the position to them, they then elected their own committee which used to meet with me periodically.
MR KIECK: Ja, the caddies have their own structure, they more or less looked after themselves and if we had a problem we used to just call the committee and say listen we're having a problem in this area, you know they must address it and nine times out of ten it was addressed that way.
CHAIRPERSON: I take it from your list that when you wanted - from the form not the list sorry, the caddies were supposed to stay in the caddies enclosure - if you wanted a caddie you went to the caddies' enclosure?
ADV. GCABASHE: Then a slightly different aspect, in your evidence in chief you talk about Mr Radie's booking. Now would you know if he had a fixed booking or whether his was one of the short term bookings?
ADV. GCABASHE: Then the final aspect, looking at some of these pictures, there are items of clothing that are depicted in a few, we can find them if we look through them and photo 25 is the jacket and I'll assume that's the jacket of one of the victims but you have other bits for instance photo number 50, I don't know if you can shed any light at all as to whose that might be, I'm just, there are a few of them that are in dotted places - number 52, 51 and 52 again there's an item of clothing. Whose would these be? Would you know?
MR KIECK: The evening party - the party in the evening would have been confined only to the members of the Wine Circle. There were no prominent guests there, the members - the people that were there were all members of the Wine Circle.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry one question I wanted to ask you which I've forgotten, did the club normally have dinner parties on Saturday night? Sorry, not dinner parties, did the club normally serve dinner on Saturday nights or not?
MR PRIOR: Mrs Savage is it correct that during, well on the 28th November 1992 you were attending the Annual Christmas Party of the Wine Circle of King William's Town at the King William's Town Golf Club?
MRS SAVAGE: I wasn't aware of that because every year we would have our function at a different place and for me, not being of a golfing family, it was my first time having lived in King William's Town for ten years that I'd ever been to the Golf Club and I heard that they had this new caterer and that we'd been lucky enough to get the venue, so I was really quite excited about going there for the first time.
MRS SAVAGE: No, I confirm that, the wine circle was almost like a family, we were a group of people that knew each other well, that had a common interest which was wine tasting. We usually met during the course of the year at various peoples homes or at other venues and when you talk about - there's been this discrimination of senior people and what is meant -but yes there were some prominent people amongst our members, I mean you mentioned Judge Claasens, his wife Anne was actually the founder of the club because he was a type of leader who had managed or maybe privileged enough to do courses. So that is the reason that they were there and then of course there was Mrs Radie who played at every second function in town out of the goodness of her heart. So it was a real like country village get together.
MR PRIOR: Well, sorry the question is more specifically, were you aware of any such people being there apart from Mr Radie that you've heard about, that he was also a member of the wine circle and his wife and Mr Nel who had played golf earlier that day?
MRS SAVAGE: Well for what it's worth, we were having a really fantastic evening and I suddenly heard something that sounded like firecrackers and Mr Stanford was on my left and seated next to Mr Stanford was Mr MacDonald and his wife and I had this dreadful vision as if I was seeing a movie in real life and I saw - I saw both Mr and Mrs MacDonald die and I swung round and looked towards the door and saw the gentleman over there with his AK47, not that I know much but that's just what I assumed and my immediate thought was "Oh God, this is a terrorist attack." From then on I blacked out and I don't remember anything.
But I'm pleased to have come here because our ...(indistinct) over them appeared to me every night, I hallucinated about him for many years and when I was in I.C.U. I actually - I used to see his face so that just goes to prove what an absolutely incredible thing the human mind is and as I say I remembered nothing, I remember the next thing I remember was in the helicopter flying off to Bloemfontein and coming round and they said to me you've been in a terrorist attack and I tried to tell them that I'd known. I spent a month in I.C.U. but...[intervention]
MRS SAVAGE: I had a hole in the aorta and I had my large intestine removed and I had, well, basic open heart surgery. But it, you know what I'm trying to say is that I saw something the other day that says that the hand that gives the roses always keeps some of the fragrance and what I would like to say is my sincere hope and prayer is that something good will come out of this. I think there's a tremendous amount of good that can come out of it. As far as I'm concerned I feel my deepest sympathy go to those that lost loved ones, I miss them too, they were my friends but in some ways, I've been done the favour of my life, I've been given a second chance and I'm not in favour of the way things were carried out needlessly, but I do understand the cause. I think if you look even at this community in the hall this afternoon you can see how families have been brought close together. Over here on my left they have support, I really, I had - I never realised what strength I had in my family, my children nursed me, they taught me to walk, they fed me and I feel that through that I've actually been able to counsel so many people of all colours through my experience and I just, I thank God for that. And I think ultimately peace and reconciliation comes through each one of us with our Maker and I would just like to take this opportunity of thanking Bishop Tutu in particular who spearheaded this and thanking you guys for persevering with the task, I think this is the only road to peace.
MRS SAVAGE: The only thing I would like to say to the applicants is that I hope and pray that more come forward because all I see is a clear picture, it's like a blank photograph that is filling in but there are many ghosts that still haven't appeared and I think that I'm sure other will come forward in time. And as I say the truth is between you and your Maker only you and He know that and that is up to you to make your peace, I have no problem with amnesty, none at all.
MRS SAVAGE: There's just one more thing and I ...[inaudible] it's too philosophic but I really, the thing that has hurt me the most about this whole hearing is that somehow there's a feeling that all white people are bad and what I want to say to you is that night at the Golf Club the majority of people, my best friend in fact, spoke to one of you gentlemen right in the front there and compared the evening. That lady spent her life going around various settlements organising pre-school equipment for children. I myself come from a family that was severely discriminated against during the National Regime. My father had his telephone tapped, we were actually hounded out of a very strong Nationalist stronghold. I can remember my mother walking the streets at night, looking for my father wanting to see if he had disappeared so it's a wheel that just goes round and round, healing comes in time but please not all white people are bad and boogymans, really, believe me. A lot of us were actively involved in the struggle. So that's all I would like to say thank you very much.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, it's not a question, it's just that I want just to ask Mrs Savage just one question. It's a question that - now that you have heard the applicants and explained why they did what they did, how do you feel about it?
through them when they did what they did. All of us we don't know whether is what happened is only them and the Maker truly who knows what actually happened but what I'm saying, now that you have heard and they have said what they have to say here, how do you feel that they have also poured out what was inside them?
MRS SAVAGE: I think it's very brave and I do believe that if I had been born black I would feel exactly as they have felt and I would probably have been the most, the worst rebel you could wish to find.
MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Davis. Is it correct that your parents were both attending the function at the Golf Club on the evening of the 28th November 1992 during the APLA attack and both were fatally injured, both died, is that correct?
I think that by and large we have heard a lot of the truth from the applicants and their version of the events that happened. There may be some disputes here and there but I feel that by large they have revealed their experiences. I think it's clear that their actions were politically motivated whether or not their actions satisfy the proportionality requirement is something I don't feel qualified to judge. I think that I'm personally too affected to make that judgement but I trust the Commission will make that judgement. I think that at one level my parents died as a result of a horrible accident that seeking to hit a target of military and political personnel, APLA hit a Christmas party for the Wine Circle. But at another level, my parents died because they were symbols and I think this is how the applicants see it. They died, as white people they were symbols of an oppressive system of government and I think that for me, part of my understanding and as part of my healing process, is to see them again not as symbols and not as victims but as people - see my parents again as mother and father. My parents had a life which had it's share of losses and pain. Three months before they died my eldest brother died, took his own life. It was a tragedy which had hit them extremely hard and I think at the time that they died, they were just beginning - just beginning to grapple with that. I think people who knew my parents will testify that they were loyal friends, extremely loyal to the people they knew and they were also very close and intimate married couple. They were a loving husband and wife and a model which I have found inspiring in my own marriage and I think lastly they were extremely caring parents. Caring to me and my younger sister and my elder brother who died.
So I think that for me one of the primary objectives of this reconciliation process is for me to see my parents not as the symbols for which they died but as the human beings in the role the played in my life.
Over the past two days I have heard the anger expressed by the applicants, the anger at what they saw and suffered under the Apartheid System. Well I hear that anger and I sympathise with it and as far as I possibly can I empathise with it but I would also like them to hear my anger, an anger at my sense of loss of having lost my parents and the loss that my sister and I have had to bear. Within a week or two of my parents' death my sister developed her first symptoms of Multiple Sclerosis which the doctors confirmed came on as a result of the trauma. Multiple Sclerosis is a nervous system disorder. She is now largely confined to a wheel chair and is partially blind. So part of my anger is about having to have to bear these things - my sister too, having to have to bear these things.
But I think that part of my path of reconciliation is having to find a way to lay that anger down, to put it to rest and I would hope too that the applicants would feel that they have the opportunity to lay their anger down too. Which makes me think about another kind of reconciliation - the kind which I think most people think of when they think of the TRC and that is whether there can be any reconciliation between the perpetrators and people such as myself. It's difficult for me to think about, having been here for the last few days I'm not even sure the applicants wish that or perhaps this isn't the right occasion.
I'm not even sure under what pre-conditions or under what conditions any kind of reconciliation can occur but I would like to state that I am willing to engage in a process which might lead to that so I would like to say that I am open to that and if people here are willing to engage me in that they can do so through the TRC. That's all I'd like to say.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, it's just a comment just directed to Mr Davis to say that I'm sorry of the tragedy that befell your family before and during the event and after the event and I think also I'm expressing the views of the applicants on that
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Davis, once again, I know I speak on behalf of the Committee and I'm sure I speak on behalf of all who have heard you. We extend to you our deepest sympathy and our love and understanding to both you and Sarah and we hope that in days to come you can think back of the sympathy we all have for you.
First of all Mr Chairman, without trying to make a mockery of the proceedings, I find it very ironical that at this hearing, people who murder innocent people in golf clubs and in churches can take an oath before Almighty God. The very murderers who talk about God and his people in their testimonies, how can we believe them no matter what political motive they imply.
I certainly do not believe that the full truth has been disclosed in these applications. In terms of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, yes I can relate to the need to find the truth. I don't believe we have heard all the truth. But in terms of reconciliation, I must differ with my colleagues. The only people I can reconcile with are other people that have been effected by these atrocities. The Hani family, the Biko family and many, many others, black or white - it's not a racial issue. Victims - but I can not reconcile with murderers. I can identify with Mrs Hani and I can respect her stance regarding amnesty for Janus Walus and Clive Derby-Lewis. What they did was a preplanned murder and I believe the same applies in this instance.
I do not aspire to communistic or political ideals of any sort but as individual human beings we all share a tremendous sense of loss of our loved ones. The process of transition to democracy was irreversible at this point in time when the attacks took place.
Notwithstanding the purpose that the Truth and Reconciliation has served for some individuals and please, I'm not on a hatred and bitter path, I'm expressing my feelings as I feel them, there should be no reconciliation in my books. Instead we should be having a War Crimes Tribunal if this is to be classified as an act during a war time. The civilised world demands this of the Germans who committed atrocities against innocent Jews and so should we if we are to be seen as a civilised society.
This atrocity shook the world let alone an entire community, black and white. The eyes of the civilised world must again know what action this so-called democratic land of ours will take against cold blooded murderers who hide behind political motives.
I believe that this Commission will be failing in it's duty if amnesty is granted because they may divulge the truth but they have not reconciled victims with perpetrators but rather victims with victims irrespective of their race or political affiliation. That is all I have to say thank you.
MR MacDONALD: Yes there have been elements of doubt as to dates and whether the attack was postponed, whether this was in fact an attack on a military target with top brass military personnel. These were innocent people. There's contradictions by the applicants today in particular the last applicant as to some of the events that happened. In my heart of hearts and I don't believe I'm on trial here, I do not believe that the whole truth is being told.
There are names which we don't know, as Mrs Savage said there are still faces, there are still ghosts out there and she's possible more of a victim, in a sense that she was present, than myself who was not actually present on the day.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Well although I differ with you I've heard what you are saying. Now my following question will be - are you feeling the same anger as you indicated that you can only reconcile with, across the colour line, whoever was a victim? You have those strong feelings for those people who have been killed whether black and white from, if I may quote the nearest incidents which are still fresh from 1961-60 - Sharpeville Massacre, you come to the ....[inaudible] massacre, you come to the case of the Mklanga's as you have indicated, that's your feeling - you feel that Brian Mitchell and Dirk Coetzee should not have been granted amnesty?
MR MacDONALD: I don't know if they have been granted amnesty. If I can just put into perspective, mine is a controlled anger, I'm not against black people in any manner and I must make that clear. My anger is more through a sense of helplessness, that is my anger.
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I was informed that Mr Radie would be attending today but he has not turned up. He however supplied the TRC with a sworn statement some time back and obviously I did not put it up with the bundle, I was anticipating that he would be present.
For what it's worth, it is a sworn statement, he has no objection to amnesty and sets out very briefly his views on the matter. So I think it was tendered to the TRC after an approach by the Investigating Unit and I think I'm bound to possibly hand it
Mr Chairman, I do not propose to lead any more evidence in this matter, subject of course to anything that may come to my attention that may alter the situation but I will obviously raise that with you in due course should that ever occur. Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: We agreed that it would be desirable for us to hear the evidence of Mr Letlapa Mapashlele and I gathered that arrangements, it was hoped that arrangements could be made for us to hear him because I understand from Mr Mbandazayo that he has had problems getting - making arrangements to communicate with him this week and that he desires to consult with him before he gives evidence so that the evidence that he gives can cover not only this but other matters where he was in position of authority and where people acted on his instructions. It therefore seems impossible for us to continue and complete this hearing this week. What do you suggest gentlemen?
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I think it would be wise possibly then to determine the availability of Mr Letlape Mapashlele first. We are sitting in Aliwal North and I understand Mr Letlape is also involved in those matters.
CHAIRPERSON: But let us rather in case we have a possibility of filling in other time if we can get him earlier. We're adjourning the matter until next matter so we can ascertain what the position is with a view to then procuring a fixed date. It does not mean that we will carry on next Monday with this hearing.
CHAIRPERSON: Tuesday, sorry Monday's a public holiday, so next weeks a three day week next week. Next Tuesday - merely for the purpose of fixing a date so if anyone does wish to come and hear him I would not come here next Tuesday but make arrangements, I'm sure Mr Prior will inform you as to what arrangements are made if you are interested in hearing him.