Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We want to start. Adv Steenkamp, the matter of Manyamala, what is the position with that? I thought that we will listen to the application which Mr Shayi wanted to bring, to amend his application and then to listen to the address. What is the position with that?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairperson, they haven't arrived yet, I haven't seen them yet. Because of the decision yesterday that we must start on time, we decided with all due respect Mr Chairman, if you would allow, to start with another matter.

It is the only applicant Mr Chairman, and the Attorney was here as well at nine o'clock, as you wish Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume that Mr Manyamala is here, because I had seen the Correctional Services arriving?

ADV STEENKAMP: Correct Mr Chairman, he is here actually. He was here very early as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any indication what has happened to his legal representatives?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I haven't seen them as of yet this morning. They haven't contacted me, I assume there is some sort of logistical problem. I don't know sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So I assume we will then deal with the matter of Khumalo?

ADV STEENKAMP: If you please Mr Chairman, we start with the matter of Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: We shall do so. For the record, it is Tuesday, 13 October 1998. It is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee. Presiding is myself, Denzel Potgieter. With my on the panel, on my right is Adv Gcabashe and on my left is Mr Sibanyoni.

We are dealing with the application of Bongani Christopher Khumalo, reference AM0281/96. Mr Steenkamp just for the record?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I was informed and you will see there are also copies of these notices as far as Section 19(4) is concerned, all the victims names were called out again this morning outside Mr Chairman, and honourable members. As far as we could establish, none of them are in attendance.

I would respect Mr Chairman, with all due respect, that we proceed with this matter as it stands. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they given due notice of the hearing today?

ADV STEENKAMP: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Were they given notice of the hearing today?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, Mr Chairman, the copies of the notices as well as the service, acknowledgement of receipt of the services, are contained in the bundle. At the back of the bundle, actually starting on page 48 till the end Mr Chairman.

I was also informed that we did not receive any communication of any of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: You are asking that we proceed with the matter?

ADV STEENKAMP: As you wish Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: In the circumstances, it appears that notice has been duly given to the persons with an interest in this application, in terms of Section 19(4) of the Act, 34 of 1995, and in the circumstances, we proceed to hear the application of Khumalo.

Mr Mhlaba, do you want to just put yourself on record?

MR MHLABA: Thank you Mr Chairman, my name is Mhlaba, I am acting for the applicant in this matter, and the applicant wishes to testify in Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We will proceed to let the applicant take the oath.

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: (sworn states)

MR MHLABA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Before dealing with the application, I would want to make an application on behalf of the applicant, for the amendment of paragraph 9 of the application form.

Mr Chairman, it would appear that the application as it stands, and the bundles as they are before the Committee, deals with a particular incident or incidents which happened in Soweto. It transpired however, that the applicant also had certain incidents in the Eastern Cape which the details of, are not included in the bundles.

However, page 51 of the paginated bundle indicates that there is a notice which was served to one of the victims, in respect of the Eastern Cape incident. Therefore the applicant applies to incorporate these incidents of the Eastern Cape and apply amnesty in respect of this incident as well.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the details of that incident Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: The details of the incident, there was a shoot-out with police officers where a police officer was injured. The details of the police officer is not known by the applicant, but it would appear that it is the victim referred to in page 51 of the paginated bundles.

As well as possession of arms and explosives.

CHAIRPERSON: The application form, was that completed by the applicant himself?

MR MHLABA: That is correct, without assistance by anyone.

CHAIRPERSON: The particular matter that you are referring to in the application, is the Queenstown matter?

MR MHLABA: That is correct. If I may further mention that the applicant has been convicted in respect of such two incidents, and he is serving a prison term.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there two incidents in Queenstown, or was it - because you have referred us to a shoot-out with the police where somebody was injured, apparently the person who received the notice on page 51. If you say that there were two incidents, does it relate to that shoot-out or can you give us some more detail?

MR MHLABA: The one incident relates to the shoot-out, that was in November 1993, and the applicant was a fugitive all along, and he was arrested on the 24th of February 1994 and then found in possession with explosives and arms.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was arrested for the shoot-out incident and when he was arrested, at that stage, he was in possession of, unlawful possession of arms and ammunition and he was charged for that as well?

MR MHLABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Then he was convicted for both the shoot-out and the possession, and he was sentenced?

MR MHLABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, what reference if any, is there in what is before us with regard to the Eastern Cape matter? I see that there are a few places where there is reference to Queenstown and there is a reference to Marina and I am not sure what that is and then there is a reference to Soweto.

I am looking more specifically at paragraph 9(c) on page 4 of the record which deals with the question of victims. There seems to be a whole sort of broad reference to things that had happened at Queenstown and (c)(ii) for example, talks about the Zola 3, Soweto and then it refers to Queenstown.

Then I think the word is Marina or Marino, I am not sure what is after the word, but at Queenstown. It appears as if there is some reference, and then in (c)(iv), there is again Queenstown, reference to Queenstown, Marina, Zola 3, Soweto and I assume on the second line, it is Protea police station, Queenstown police station.

Are you submitting that the applicant purports to deal with these further Eastern Cape matters that you are referring us to, when he refers to all these sort of places where incidents have happened? I see also on page 5, paragraph 12(a), he does refer to some court proceeding in the High Court, Johannesburg and in the Queenstown regional court.

And then 12(c) refers to terrorism, or the Terrorism Act, attempted murder and I assume that there is a reference to explosives and the possession of firearms. Is your submission that these references as perhaps not entirely as accurate as one would have hoped to have been, and clearly set out in the application, really attempts to encompass all of these incidents that you are talking about?

MR MHLABA: That is correct Mr Chairman. I have established from the applicant that he wanted to deal with all the incidents and the word which says Marina here, it purports to refer to Marienhoek squatter camp in Queenstown. It is an informal settlement there.

CHAIRPERSON: Just off hand, if you can help, is the notice on page 51, is that the only notice for somebody in the Eastern Cape?

MR MHLABA: That is correct Chairman. It would appear that the only victim was the one police officer, and my instructions are that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, oh, I see that on page 50, I am just paging through, trying to see, I see on page 50, there is a notice to a Sergeant Prins of the Internal Security Branch, I am not sure what that is, but in any case, to the police in Queenstown, so there seems to be notice to two persons, but you say that on your instruction, in that shoot-out, there was one person injured, although your client, the applicant, is not aware of the identity of that person?

MR MHLABA: That is correct Chairman. The applicant is aware that one person has been shot at by him, but he has fired several shots. He can only tell of one victim who is certain, was hit by the fire.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you have formulated the amendment in more specific terms, or whether you had intended to do that as we went along, but if you have it formulated there in the sense of specifying the place and the date and the offences in question, if you have it available now, then perhaps you can give it to us. If not, we can deal with the amendment first and then perhaps come back to that, if it is necessary.

I don't know if you have it formulated there like in these specific terms?

MR MHLABA: The amendments are not per se formulated, but I have the facts, that can be done, it will not take very long to do that, and I submit, I concede that the form in particular, paragraph 9, was poorly completed and we can endeavour to try and formulate it in such a way that it will give some, can paint a particular picture to the Committee. It will not take me very long. A short adjournment will suffice for that purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: That is fine. Can you just give us, we know that the shoot-out was in November 1993, can you give us the rough date of the arrest and the possession of the explosives and the arms?

MR MHLABA: The applicant himself is not certain as to the correct date of the shoot-out at the squatter camp. He is however aware of the date of the arrest, being the 24th of February 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the shoot-out at Marino or Marina, can you just give me the right name?

MR MHLABA: The right name is Marienhoek.

CHAIRPERSON: Marienhoek?

MR MHLABA: Marienhoek, as it appears at the foot of page 51 of the bundle, the notice given to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. Adv Steenkamp, have you got any submissions on the application to amend?

ADV STEENKAMP: I have no submissions Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you satisfied that the ostensible victims in the shoot-out, were given notice as per pages 50 and 51 of the record?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I am satisfied. I can maybe just add, you will see there is actually no information contained in the bundle, referring to this incident.

I was informed that none of these records are still in existence. Though the incident happened in 1994, which I can't understand, but I understand the records aren't in existence. I think my learned colleague also informed me this morning, that he was also informed that none of these records are in existence any more. I have to apologise for that Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We have considered the application to amend the amnesty application to more explicitly include two incidents. The first one relating to a shoot-out between the applicant and members of the police at Marienhoek in Queenstown in the Eastern Cape, as well as the incident relating to the arrest, the subsequent arrest of the applicant, whom according to Mr Mhlaba, who represents him today, has been a fugitive, his subsequent arrest on the 24th of February 1994, when he was in unlawful possession of explosives and arms.

The application form has been completed by the applicant himself without any legal assistance and that much is apparent upon a reading of the application form.

It is not unusual in the experience of the Committee to have application forms completed under those circumstances, purporting to deal with a number of incidents, which should form the subject matter of the amnesty application, in a round about way and not as clearly and precisely and ...(indistinct) as obviously the case is where an applicant is assisted legally in completing the application form.

Mr Mhlaba has drawn our attention to the fact that in the bundle of documents before us, there is indication of notice having been given in terms of Section 19(4) of Act 34 of 1995, to two members of the South African Police Services in Queenstown, who it appears, are interested parties in respect of the shoot-out involving the applicant.

The application form itself, at various places, various sections of the form, purports to refer to not only an incident in Soweto but also to incidents in Queenstown. Adv Steenkamp, the Leader of Evidence of the Committee, who appears here today, has indicated to us that although this matter is not, or does not relate to a trial that was heard long ago, the records relating to the - particularly the Queenstown, Eastern Cape incidents, are not available. He has indicated to us that Mr Mhlaba has also searched for those records, and have also been unable to locate them, with the result that as is normally the case in these applications, the relevant court records are not before the Committee.

We are however satisfied that no prejudice would result from us granting the application to amend the amnesty application in the sense which I have referred to. We are satisfied that all of the interested parties have been given notice and we are satisfied that as perhaps incomplete as it might appear on the face of it, that the application form itself, does refer to the incidents which forms the subject matter of the amendment.

We accordingly grant the order to amend the amnesty application, in the sense of including the incident relating to the shoot-out in November 1993 as well as the incident relating to the arrest of the applicant on 24 February 1994.

Mr Mhlaba, do you want to proceed?

EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA: Thank you Mr Chairman. I will start leading the applicant. Mr Khumalo, for record purposes, can you explain to the Commission where and when were you born?

MR KHUMALO: I was born in Soweto, Zola 3, in 1970, that was the 5th of January.

MR MHLABA: Can you briefly give this Committee the background of your education, where did you school and up to what standard?

MR KHUMALO: I have a lower standard of education. I just happened to be wise. I went as far as standard 4.

MR MHLABA: Are you a member of any political organisation or a supporter thereof, and if so, tell us the name of the organisation?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I am a member of the present political party, the African National Congress and a member of Umkhonto weSizwe as well.

MR MHLABA: You are appearing before this Committee today, to apply for an amnesty in respect of certain offences and can you briefly explain to this Committee which are those offences?

MR KHUMALO: The offences for which I am applying amnesty for, include possession of explosives, firearm, ammunition and attempted murders, and murder.

MR MHLABA: Let us deal firstly with the offence of which was committed in Soweto, that was during July 1992, and according to the information at my disposal, it was the 31st of July 1992. Can you still remember?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I remember.

MR MHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee what happened?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I can explain, no problem.

MR MHLABA: Go ahead.

MR KHUMALO: It so happened that when we came back from exile in 1992, it was the 3rd of April. When we arrived at our homes, we dropped our things and we left to look for other comrades around the township because it has been a long time since we saw them.

When I came back in the evening, I discovered that the Security Branch had come to harass people at my house. That was the very first day on which I arrived here in the country. As time went on, on that very same day, the 31st, the police came, kept looking for me and we met around the township on the scene where this incident occurred.

When the police came, I tried to avoid them and as I was trying to avoid them, they charged on me. At a house that was found opposite a shop, the shop is called Kanyile's, I ran into the house, trying to show that I am avoiding them. I was in possession of armour explosives and it so happened that when I was in the house, the police came with their guns already drawn and when they drew their guns, I pulled my hand grenade and threw it at them. I don't know who got injured.

MR MHLABA: Were you arrested for this particular offence?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct. I was arrested in 1992, it was on the 3rd of October and charged for the incident.

MR MHLABA: Did you stand trial for this offence immediately after your arrest?

MR KHUMALO: I was attending the trial at Westgate, till such time that the matter was referred to the Supreme Court in Johannesburg.

MR MHLABA: Do you remember the period over which you stood trial at the Johannesburg Magistrate court?

MR KHUMALO: If I still remember very well, I think I was tried from October to the 20th of May 1993.

MR MHLABA: You served your entire sentence then, or to put it differently, did you serve a sentence for those offences, that particular offence and for what period?

MR KHUMALO: The sentence that I am currently serving, is a 30 year imprisonment, prison term carried out concurrently.

MR MHLABA: You will remember Mr Khumalo, that an application has been brought on your behalf to amend your application form, to include the incident of the Eastern Cape.

Can you explain how you, when did you go to the Eastern Cape and relate it to this incident of your arrest, because it would appear that you went to the Eastern Cape after you had committed the first incident, is that correct?

MR KHUMALO: It happened that in 1993, after I tried to escape from the Security Forces, I was harassed and I had to flee. The ANC sent me down to the Eastern Cape.

MR MHLABA: Are you telling us that this incident involving a shoot-out at Marienhoek squatter camp in Eastern Cape, occurred before the incident in Soweto? Just put us clear, which incident occurred first?

MR KHUMALO: Would you please repeat the question.

MR MHLABA: Would you explain to this Committee, the order in which these incidents took place? Was it the incident in Soweto or was it the incident in the Eastern Cape, the shoot-out at Marienhoek squatter camp which occurred first?

MR KHUMALO: It is Soweto.

MR MHLABA: And you were immediately arrested for the Soweto incident, is that correct?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MHLABA: And when you went to the Eastern Cape, how did you find yourself there, did you escape from prison? Can you explain?

MR KHUMALO: After I was tortured by the police at Protea, I took ill. I was sent to Baragwanath hospital. Whilst there, I tried to escape.

MR MHLABA: Yes, can you continue and explain.

MR KHUMALO: After that, I was taken to the Eastern Cape at the Marienhoek squatter camp. I was working hand in hand with the local ANC Women's League including the Youth League, so we came to an agreement that seeing that I was being harassed by the Security around here in Johannesburg, therefore I should move to the Eastern Cape. I was then based at Queenstown.

MR SIBANYONI: Just one clarity Mr Mhlaba, Mr Khumalo, you said you tried to escape. Did you succeed in escaping from Baragwanath?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I succeeded.

MR MHLABA: Mr Khumalo, can you tell us the details of how you escaped from Baragwanath hospital, where were you taken to until the point where you found yourself in the Eastern Cape and how the incident occurred?

MR KHUMALO: If I remember very well, I would say after I had escaped from hospital, I went to hide at my mother's place or should I say Mama's place, Nomzamo Madikizela-Mandela and she was harassed as well by the Security who were looking for me.

Then I was sent to the Eastern Cape, seeing that the Boers were also harassing her. Then I moved to Queenstown in Marienhoek.

MR MHLABA: When you arrived at Marienhoek, what did you do?

MR KHUMALO: I met the community of Marienhoek, and I was informed about stories as to what was happening at Marienhoek. I learned that Marienhoek too had a problem, were facing a similar harassment, this time by Gozo's Security at Ciskei and harassment from the hands of the South African Security Forces.

So that I found myself involving myself in the community structures of Marienhoek and I set up Self Defence Units, seeing that people could be able to protect themselves.

MR MHLABA: Yes please proceed, and explain what happened.

MR KHUMALO: Once the Self Defence Units were in place, the Queenstown Security was already aware of this, therefore the Queenstown Police Force came to Marienhoek to harass the people at Marienhoek, and they wanted these Self Defence Units.

Unfortunately they found me and I gave the Self Defence Units orders to beat up the police because we would not die alone and we would not be the only ones burying people. After a long time of our people being killed, nothing was happening.

The police who were involved, were not prosecuted and we put our lives in line or in the line to protect our people.

MR MHLABA: Mr Khumalo, I want to request you to explain all what happened until and including the incident involving the shoot-out with the police.

MR KHUMALO: It so happened that it was around November, the Queenstown Police came to Marienhoek. We had already decided that the police should not be allowed into Marienhoek, because they are creating problems.

People are arrested, people are detained, people are tortured, people are being killed, and the Queenstown Police forcefully went into Marienhoek. That is when I ordered that they be beaten up.

I was personally present when they came. If I still remember very well, I went to the police to ask them what they wanted, and asked if I could help them. They said they had come for the Self Defence Units, and one of them produced a Z88 9mm, pointing it at us. That is when I said shoot to kill. That is how these police were shot.

MR MHLABA: Were you involved yourself, in the shooting there, and if so, I want you to explain what your role was there?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I was practically involved as Commander of the Self Defence Units and also as a disciplinary cadre of Umkhonto we Sizwe. I was trying to ensure that there is safety for the people. I was personally present, I also fired shots.

MR MHLABA: After this shooting incident, can you explain, explain further until the end of everything you know about this application Mr Khumalo.

MR KHUMALO: After the police were shot, the Queenstown Security Forces reinforced, gained their entry into Marienhoek. People were raided, or houses were raided, people were detained.

They wanted to know where the bloody terrorist was and they indicated that the terrorist would have to be apprehended. People were locked up. The very same year, 1993, I moved to Ezibeleni, which is Queensdale in the Transkei.

In the very same year, 1993, as we were continuing with training, what happened here was that on the 24th of February 1994, after a call had been made that all the Umkhonto we Sizwe guerilla warfare had to report at St Johns. On our way, I was arrested at the border gate that divides Queenstown, or Transkei and Ciskei or Queenstown. That is how I got arrested.

MR MHLABA: What happened to you after you were arrested?

MR KHUMALO: I was sent to Queenstown police station, from where I was sent to Port Elizabeth at the Louis le Grange police station and I was also sent thereafter, to East London to date, where I am. Police had many questions, they interviewed me, they wanted to know what was happening. I did not hide a thing from them.

I explained to them why we were beating them up, I explained to them why the community had an attitude towards the Security, because the Security was a problem to the people. The Security was killing innocent people, therefore that is why I am here under the Correctional Service today.

MR MHLABA: Were you, Mr Khumalo, tried in a court in Queenstown?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee, the outcome of such trial and what charges you were facing?

MR KHUMALO: I was charged for the possession of explosives, firearm and ammunition and attempted murders and then I was sentenced to eight years imprisonment.

MR MHLABA: For record purposes Mr Chairman, I would like to indicate that I have a print-out here which indicates that the applicant appeared and there were two case numbers allocated in respect of the offences.

The first case number is QSH24594 and the charge was attempted murder and the subsequent case number is QSH24694, and the offences under that case number is possession of firearm, possession of ammunition, explosives. That is all Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Can I just clarify one thing, Mr Khumalo, were you not charged with escaping from lawful custody when you were in Queenstown?

MR KHUMALO: No, I was not.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR MHLABA: Mr Khumalo, can you explain to the Committee whether after you stood, was it - rather, let me put it this way, you initially stood trial in Queenstown, then subsequently transferred to Johannesburg, or was it the other way around?

MR KHUMALO: I stayed in the Eastern Cape, that is during the year 1995, 1996 and I returned to Johannesburg during 1996.

MR MHLABA: You are applying to the Committee Mr Khumalo, to grant you amnesty in respect of these offences. Do you have anything to say to the Committee in motivation of your application?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct, there is something I would like to say. I would like to say to the Committee that I would like the Committee to grant me amnesty with regard to all the offences which have been dealt with and in the context in which they happened.

It was during the apartheid system, when we were being harassed, we were committed to the struggle and we wanted to free the nation. We were killed, harassed, tortured. We also did what we did, or what we had to do, we tried to overthrow the government, using different techniques and tactics.

I would request the Amnesty Committee, to grant me amnesty because of the reasons that I have already stated, and the fact that we were freedom fighters. With regard to Article 11, that states that every person has a right to life, all of us have an inherent right to life.

Even though we did kill certain people, some innocent victims were effected, that was not our intention to kill or to hurt others. It happened during the course of the struggle that we should find ourselves in the situation.

I request the whole South Africa to be peaceful and to accept that we are now moving towards peace.

MR MHLABA: In conclusion Mr Khumalo, are you willing to respond to questions which may be put to you by the Committee or any other person who feels, has an interest in this matter?

MR KHUMALO: I have absolutely no problem, I will answer all questions posed to me.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Mhlaba, if I could just check, before you finish, if you look at page 12 of the bundle, the summary of substantial facts, we have got counts 1 - 4, then counts 5 - 12, then counts 13 - 14 that are referred to here. Have you covered all of them?

MR MHLABA: Thank you Chair. I will want to take this opportunity to take the applicant back to certain aspects in this regard.

Mr Khumalo, can you explain to the Committee, do you know anything about the incident in respect of which Joseph Mazibuko was killed on the 2nd of October 1992?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MHLABA: Can you explain in full what happened?

MR KHUMALO: As I have already explained, that when we got to South Africa, we discovered that people were constantly being harassed and killed.

We decided to open up some Self Defence Unit, the community itself was pressurising us to come up with a solution, which we decided was the establishment of Self Defence Units.

We also had certain duties that were assigned to us. It so happened that on this particular day when we were on duty, the Protea police station, or the police stationed to the Protea police station, had come to attack us. We had an operation clean up that we had instituted locally.

It so happened that on the 2nd of October during the year 1992, I assigned some guys from the Self Defence Unit, as the Commander of the Self Defence Unit, to go patrol around the residential area.

After having issued this instruction to go and patrol, there was a specific request that the community should switch off the streetlights, because they were going to disturb us in the duty, all the work that we had assigned ourselves to do.

The community permitted us to switch off the lights. One of the Self Defence Unit members came to me, to report that I was being sought at a certain house and I had to go there personally to that particular house. I went into that house because I knew the people who resided there and as I got inside the house, I requested to see the owner of the house, which was a woman. I came across the woman, I spoke to her, I greeted her and further pointed out that we request as the community, for her to switch off the front light.

She asked me the reason why and I explained to her the reason. I even explained and identified myself, and explained that I was from the Self Defence Unit and that I was carrying a certain duty. I was attacked by everybody in that house.

There is a person with whom we didn't see eye to eye and his name is Vugani. I was accosted, manhandled. I was kept hostage and I had a hand grenade in my possession. They tried to take away the hand grenade.

Whilst, within the same breath, I was trying to explain that I was not attacking them, or fighting them, but I had come to explain to them as to why they had to switch off the front light. They were quite adamant, they didn't want to listen to me, they just kept on attacking me and the comrades with whom I operated, were outside the house.

They heard some screams and struggle from the house. They wanted to take the hand grenade which was in my hand, somebody stabbed me with a fork on the right hand, so that I could release the hand grenade.

As they were stabbing me with the fork, the safety pin of the hand grenade was mistakenly released. I told them that the safety pin had been released, and they had to give me a chance to put it back so that it could not explode. I kept on trying to explain to them, that they had called me to come and explain and what I had gone there for, was to explain as to why they had to switch off the lights.

During the struggle, the comrades kicked the door open, that is how I got a chance to escape. My right hand was bleeding. It happened that I was injured and I got angry at that time, especially because I had not gone there to fight or attack. I told myself that I am not going to compromise, let me just give them the present that they wanted because they were obstacles standing in our way, and we did not want people who were going to disturb us, especially with regard to our duty to protect the community.

So they had to accept the present that I was giving to them. I would like to say how much I regret the incident. That is Joseph Mazibuko, because that was not my intention to kill Joseph Mazibuko. I am truly sorry.

MR MHLABA: And is this the same incident where D.P. Mazibuko was injured?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: Do you know anything about an incident involving Colin Skiro Zuma, which occurred on the 3rd of October 1992?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I know everything that happened in Zola 3. I have extensive knowledge with regard to the death of Skiro. Skiro was a thug who had absolutely no direction.

MR MHLABA: Did you do anything to Colin Skiro Zuma on the 3rd of October, and if so, I want you to explain fully the role you had played there?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, there is a role that I played. On the 2nd of October, it was on the afternoon of that day, I stay just at close proximity to the school, a lower primary school and there were security guards at the school, or there is a watchman who kept watch over the school, Mr Tshabalala.

He came to me with a report that the school had been broken into and certain articles stolen. As people who protected the community, he wanted to enlist my help with regard to the recovery of the articles that were stolen at that particular school.

Mshengo told me that Skiro was there at the school to try and disrupt the school. I promised Mshengo that we were going to look for Skiro, hunt him down and bring him to Mshengo so that he could answer to the allegations that were levelled against him by Mr Tshabalala.

I came across Skiro and told him that we were actually looking for him, and asked him as to why they broke into the lower primary and took certain articles and sold them at a later stage.

Skiro was very arrogant, very aggressive when I approached him. I did not touch him, I did not do anything to him, but this security approached, and I apprehended Skiro, taking him to Mshengo.

At that time the police from the Protea police station approached, they arrested me.

MR MHLABA: Let me take the incident where you have thrown the hand grenade to the police officers who were pointing firearms at you. You said that was at Kanyile's home, is that correct?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, according to my knowledge, that is correct.

MR MHLABA: The information I have to my disposal, is that Mkadyani Samson Dube, Irish Kanyile and Mhanha Godfrey Ncobo were injured at that incident. Are you aware of that?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I heard that after the incident, that there were people who got injured.

MR MHLABA: Were you aware of the details of such people?

MR KHUMALO: No, I did not know them.

MR MHLABA: Thank you Chairperson, that concludes the evidence in chief.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mhlaba. Adv Steenkamp, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, just a few questions. Sir, maybe we can start with the last section of your evidence.

The assault of Colin Zuma, can you describe to the Committee, what was your political motive for assaulting Mr Zuma?

MR KHUMALO: I did not assault Zuma. Zuma was held or arrested, we were effecting a civilian arrest, so that he could be taken to the security guard at the primary school. My political motive is that I was approached as a member of the local community and a member of the Self Defence Unit, to try and protect the community, because these people were a problem in the community.

The elderly people were scared of these thugs. I felt that it was my responsibility to apprehend Skiro and bring him to the security guard, so that he could answer the allegations because we believed that education should go on.

ADV STEENKAMP: So, can you explain to me why were you then convicted for the assault on Mr Colin Zuma?

MR KHUMALO: I have got absolutely no knowledge, because I explained even in court, that I had nothing to do with the assault and I pleaded not guilty. I do not know how I got convicted.

ADV STEENKAMP: I take it that you are also denying that you threatened Mr Colin Zuma with a hand grenade?

MR KHUMALO: I was not in possession of any firearm or ammunition when I apprehended Mr Zuma. Even when I was arrested by the police, I had nothing in my possession.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, the incident where the hand grenade exploded, were you also in possession of a firearm?

MR KHUMALO: Could you repeat your question?

ADV STEENKAMP: I see in your amnesty application, no mention of possession of a firearm. My question to you is, because according to the court records, you were also in possession of a firearm on the day of the incident, can you explain that to me.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Adv Steenkamp, just ...

MR KHUMALO: There was a firearm that was found, whilst I was in detention at the Protea police station. That is why I applied for a possession of a firearm. There is a firearm that was found.

Actually not a firearm, it was an explosive, a hand grenade. That was found in Pretoria.

ADV GCABASHE: Which incident is that that you are referring to?

ADV STEENKAMP: I am sorry Mr Chairman, I am referring to the incident of the explosion of the hand grenade inside the house. My question to the applicant is basically this, was he in possession of a firearm?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I was in possession of a firearm at that time.

ADV STEENKAMP: This is now at the time of the incident in the house, am I right?

MR KHUMALO: Could you repeat your question please.

ADV STEENKAMP: Okay. Am I right in understanding you correctly, at the day of the incident of the explosion of the hand grenade inside the house, you were also in possession of a firearm?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I was.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you explain to me why you specifically denied to the Supreme Court, that you were in possession of a firearm on the day of the incident, that specific day, why did you lie to the Supreme Court then?

MR KHUMALO: I had to lie in court, because I did not appreciate the system that was employed by the Supreme Court, and I had no confidence in the judicial system, because it was unfair on our part. That is why I had absolutely no confidence and I did not want to disclose the truth, I did not want to get convicted.

ADV STEENKAMP: I missed that, can you maybe just explain to me, you referred to Mrs Mandela. Can you explain to me what exactly was her role in this incident?

MR KHUMALO: Mrs Mandela, I don't understand, can you repeat your question.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, you referred to Mrs Mandela in your evidence in chief. My question to you is, what exactly - did she give you any assistance, what was her role in this whole time while you were, after the incident? Apparently she gave you some assistance if I am not mistaken. My question to you is, can you please explain to me exactly what was her role?

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Mr Khumalo, Mr Steenkamp, if my memory serves me well, the reference was not to Mrs Mandela, the reference was to Mama's place, so maybe you should frame your question in that sense, you know because of the evidence we have heard before in the TRC. There is a difference between the person and the place, so maybe you need to rephrase.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if I am not mistaken, the applicant has referred to Mrs Mandela, but I will rephrase the question.

Can you explain to me who was Mama then?

MR KHUMALO: I will explain this further. During the year 1993, after I had fled, I went to Mama's place, that is Mrs Mandela. I sought a place of refuge. That is when I was escaping from the Security Police. I went to Mama's place. That is why I involved Mrs Mandela.

ADV STEENKAMP: Was she aware that you had escaped from the police and the police were searching for you?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, when the police was searching for me, she is a member of the African National Congress ...

MR SIBANYONI: Sorry to interrupt you Mr Khumalo, can you please continue speaking in Zulu, the Interpreters are going to interpret what you are saying.

MR KHUMALO: Thank you. It happened that Mama is a member of the African National Congress and she knew the conditions under which we lived, especially as members of Umkhonto we Sizwe. As well as the reasons for being harassed and tortured by the Security Police, any member or every member of the ANC had a right to hide members of the ANC who were fleeing from the Security Police, that is what I was trying to explain.

ADV STEENKAMP: For how long did you stay there and did she also assist you in going to the Eastern Cape?

MR KHUMALO: I did not stay long. I think I stayed ...

ADV STEENKAMP: Just a minute.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he applying for escaping from custody?

ADV STEENKAMP: No Mr Chairman, but I think he is not applying for that, but surely he is implicating somebody now. I think the question, my only question why I am asking this question, is the whole relation to information relating to 19(4), if they are not, this person must be referred to as an implicated person or not and whether or not, she must be notified. That is my only difficulty Mr Chairman, but I don't have any further questions on that issue. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: That is my difficulty as well. So it is not really an issue that is before us?

ADV STEENKAMP: No, it is not an issue of the applicant, it is an issue of referring to the specific Section Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

ADV STEENKAMP: My last question to you sir, who supplied you with the hand grenades?

MR KHUMALO: I am a member of Umkhonto we Sizwe and as a member, there were certain operations within South Africa, we had some DLB's in South Africa which were issued during the armed struggle and these were handled by us.

As we were handling these, I was the one who was issuing them out so that they could protect the community.

ADV STEENKAMP: Did you get these, did you personally, were you personally in possession of a cache or where did you exactly get these hand grenades?

MR KHUMALO: With regard to underground structures, I cannot say it was a cache of arms, but I used to get arms from different people at different times. I would not say it was a whole cache at the same time.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you for your indulgence Mr Chairman, thank you to all the members.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Khumalo, if I understood you very well, you are saying you didn't assault Colin Zuma, is that so?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: However, the Court convicted you for that, found you guilty for that?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I was convicted for something that I didn't do. Even God knows that I didn't commit that offence.

MR SIBANYONI: I see. Now, seeing that the Court has made that effect, that it is a conviction against you, are you applying for amnesty, would you like the Committee to give you amnesty for that?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: No questions, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mhlaba, re-examination?

MR MHLABA: None Chair.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA: .

MR MHLABA: The applicant does not have any witness to call and that concludes his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Steenkamp, are there any further witnesses?

ADV STEENKAMP: I am sorry Mr Chairman, I do not have any further witnesses to lead as well, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to adjourn for tea and when we reconvene, I would like you to proceed to address us on the application. If you wish to formulate those offences which relate to the amendment, I want you to just take the opportunity to do that as well Mr Mhlaba. Thank you.

We will adjourn to give you a bit of time just to prepare all of that. We will adjourn for tea until eleven o'clock.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, thank you, I see Mr Manyamala's Attorneys are present now.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS