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Amnesty Hearings

Type AMNESTY HEARINGS

Starting Date 02 February 1999

Location JOHANNESBURG

Day 2

Names SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman the next applicant is Mr Sidney Nkosi. However, before he is called, Iíve been requested to address you on a certain problem, which I submit sir might have a serious impact on the smooth running of these hearings.

Sir on Thursday last week all the legal representatives, together with Mr Andre Steenkamp and other officials of the TRC met at TRC offices, and it was in fact undertaken that transport would be arranged for the applicants to be brought here. And the applicants needed that as they are all unemployed and cannot afford the transport costs which would be on a daily basis. Now I am informed, Mr Chairman, that there has been a problem, the taxi drivers up to now have not been paid, they are threatening the applicants who cannot afford to pay them, and they have clearly stated that they will certainly not take them back home today, or bring them back here again. Mr Chairman this could also lead to further violence because we all know how volatile the taxi industry is in this regard.

I am also informed, Mr Chairman, the secretary of the Amnesty Committee, Advocate Martin Coetzee, has said that they cannot give any assistance to the applicants and will only do so if you, Mr Chairman, order them to do so. I cannot see anything in Act 34 of 1995 which authorises you or empowers you to make such an order, but I am asked to, because Advocate Coetzee says he needs a directive from yourself, I am requesting you Mr Chairman to make such a directive so that this, these proceedings can proceed. It is, I would also mention that there was a request by member of parliament for the Tokoza, or who represents, from the Tokoza area, Mr Duma Nkosi, he requested that these hearings in fact be heard in Tokoza because, Mr Chairman, the Tokoza community that are affected by these hearings, it seems that they havenít attended and maybe the reason is the difficulty in getting to the city every day. But be that as it may, we must concern ourselves with the applicants and their getting here, and Iíd ask you to make an order. Thank you sir.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman if I may be so rude to interrupt. Maybe just a small amendment to what my learned colleague indicated, and that the minutes of the pre-trial or the pre-meeting will, pre-hearing will reflect this. The position was that the logistical officer of the Commission is in charge of logistical arrangements and such an issue will obviously have to be made with the logistical director or the logistical person responsible for this hearing. As far as my knowledge serves me no such undertaking was given that the TRC will in fact, as a point of principle, be responsible for the logistical arrangements of the applicants.

However, the indication was, for myself, that the logistical officer will make such arrangements and decisions like this will obviously have to be taken by the Executive Secretary of the Amnesty Committee, or by the Chairperson of the specific hearing. Thank you Mr Chairman.

...(blank on tape)

CHAIRPERSON: I have been asked to sanction payment of transport fees to attend this hearing on behalf of the applicants. Mr technician I want what Iím going to say now to come over the loudspeakers to the public, not as per headphones.

...(blank on tape)

I want to break for five minutes. I want to see the Logistics Officer please.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I have been asked to sanction payment of transport fees for all or some of the applicants to attend this hearing. Mr Shane in this unusual application has indicated that serious problems may arise if these fees are not covered by the Commission. ...(inaudible)

I wish to point out that the fees requested is not a matter for, or covered by the rights which the applicants have. As in any other hearing either in a Court of law or tribunal, such fees are not claimable from the State. It is unfortunate that I have been told of threats or possible taxi violence should these fees not be paid. The fact of the matter is that the applicants are the applicants in this matter, and they have chosen to make the applications. The hearings have been arranged for this venue and if they wish to continue with the applications they must therefore in terms of the Act come testify. So it is for them to decide what they want to do. I am not making a ruling. These are just matters that I wish to point out, having been asked to make a decision on this matter. Mr Shane is completely correct, that I am not empowered to make a decision on those fees. I will not make such a decision. Thank you.

Yes Mr Shane?

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I hope that it can be resolved. We will endeavour to do our best. In the meantime Iíd like to call applicant Sidney Nkosi.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman if I may be so rude to interrupt. This application will be opposed by the victims in this case. The victim who is present here is the mother of the late Mr Jabulane Nguwana, Iíll give you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you - Iíll give you an opportunity to do that Mr Steenkamp, I just want to find out from Mr Shane what page this application will be?

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman on page†97 until page†103.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane you promised to give us identity numbers of the previous two applicants.

MR SHANE: I will do so Mr Chairman. His nameís Sidney Vincent Nkosi, identity number 701129†5371†08†2.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) 97. ...(inaudible) quite different.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman I see in his original application form the number seven was left out.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the same person?

MR SHANE: It is indeed Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got an identity number for Mr Vusi Mbatha? You promised to have it by lunchtime.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman Iím sorry, it slipped me. I will get it, I will obtain it now.

CHAIRPERSON: Thereís a lot of things slipping today. ...(inaudible) become an inconvenience Mr Shane, because every time we must refer to an old application.

MR SHANE: Mr Nkosi what language do you prefer to use?

MR NKOSI: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objections to the taking of the oath?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE: Mr Nkosi, youíre applying for amnesty for the murder of one Jabulane Dube, is that correct?

MR NKOSI: That is correct.

MR SHANE: Youíre also applying for amnesty for your part in an attack on the Khumalo gang.

MR NKOSI: That is correct.

MR SHANE: Can you tell the Committee as to your membership of the Self-Defence Units, what type of member were you?

MR NKOSI: Would you please repeat the question.

MR SHANE: Were you an ordinary member of the Self-Defence Unit?

MR NKOSI: That is correct.

MR SHANE: And that Self-Defence Unit was in the Slovo section?

MR NKOSI: That is correct, Slovo section in Tokoza Gardens.

MR SHANE: Were you not a commander in that unit?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

MR SHANE: When did you join the Self-Defence Unit?

MR NKOSI: In 1990, as an underground.

MR SHANE: And you also are a member of the ANC.

MR NKOSI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Just before you move on Mr Shane. Can I just get this right? Slovo section and Tokoza Gardens is that one section or two sections? I always try and differentiate between the old names and the new names.

MR NKOSI: These are two different places.

ADV GCABASHE: So you were active in both Slovo and Tokoza Gardens?

MR NKOSI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: But you were only a commander in Tokoza Gardens?

MR NKOSI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR SHANE: And you explain to the Committee the circumstances which led you to be involved in the murder of Jabu Dube?

MR NKOSI: Would you please repeat the last part.

MR SHANE: Can you explain why did you get involved in the murder of Jabulane Dube?

MR NKOSI: I am a resident of Penduka section and during the time of the violence I fled to Tokoza Gardens. That is where we started forming our own SDUís. These SDUís were already in existence in Slovo and other parts.

MR SHANE: When you fled Penduka section, can you tell what happened to your home?

MR NKOSI: I am the one who fled first.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you flee?

MR NKOSI: It was on a Sunday, I was sitting outside at the gate and one IFP member came carrying a megaphone, calling us to a meeting, and we argued. From there I started insulting Inkatha, his leader Mangosuthu, or should I say Gatsha Buthelezi. He then left and came back in the company of other men. They could have been five or four if Iím not mistaken. I went into the house and they could not make out whether I was a member of the household or not, and one neighbour who was in bad terms with ourselves informed them about us. He fled to Nelspruit.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, I just missed something. Your neighbour informed the IFP members that what? What did he inform them of?

MR NKOSI: He told them that the boy that was insulting them at the gate was stays in that house, the one that was that they were staying next to, it was just the front opposite the front of the house.

MR SHANE: Now in 1993, is that when Jabu was murdered?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

MR SHANE: Can you remember the month?

MR NKOSI: I cannot remember the month but there was going to be a march to Inyoni Park. Iím not sure if it was the 21st of March. I cannot remember the month, but I know there was going to be a march on the 21st, that would be on a Monday and my brother was injured on the 20th.

ADV GCABASHE: Where was the march going to?

MR NKOSI: The march was going to Inyoni Park. It was to protest against the stability unit.

ADV GCABASHE: Now I, we have been told of Kalanyoni as one of the residents of one of the hostels in the area. Has that got anything to do with Inyoni Park? Just help me with those two names.

MR NKOSI: Inyoni Park is on the way, is a park next, on the way to Vosloorus.

MR SHANE: Right, now is it correct that you had certain information that Jabu Dube was to be found in a certain tavern?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: And why, and you explain why was it so important for you to find Jabu?

MR NKOSI: In our place of resident, Penduka, we couldnít trust other residents, other comrades, and this person was not safe among the members of ANC.

MR SHANE: What did you know about Jabu Dube, as being your enemy?

MR NKOSI: Jabu was informer, IFP informer.

MR SHANE: How did you know this?

MR NKOSI: It happened several times he took a gun, a firearm from one of the comrades and the firearm got lost, and heís the one who told the IFP members about there was a tavern at Madondo Street, he pointed out to the IFP members, he pointed out the ANC members to the IFP members who were in that tavern.

MR SHANE: And did anything happen as a result of that pointing out?

MR NKOSI: The problem started there and the other comrades are not here today, because even during the patrols at Selby Street at about ten, or between ten and eleven during the patrolling, we found the IFP members patrolling and we were on the other side of the ANC, also patrolling.

MR SHANE: Right, now you went to a certain tavern, can you remember the name of the tavern?

MR NKOSI: Which tavern is that?

MR SHANE: This is the tavern where you went to look for the deceased, Jabu Dube.

MR NKOSI: That is Blue Note, the name of the tavern.

MR SHANE: Where is it?

MR NKOSI: It is in Vergenoeg.

MR SHANE: Is Vergenoeg right next to Tokoza township?

MR NKOSI: Yes it is in Tokoza. It is in Tokoza.

MR SHANE: Now you went to this tavern, were you alone?

MR NKOSI: No. The other SDU members were there.

MR SHANE: Can you remember their names?

MR NKOSI: I cannot remember their last names but I can remember their first names.

MR SHANE: Will you give their first names please?

MR NKOSI: Johannes Mduduzi, Johannes and Mduduzi.

MR SHANE: ...(inaudible) are those the only ones?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just repeat that please.

MR NKOSI: Johannes and Mduduzi.

MR SHANE: Right, this person Beki Dube, Jabu Dube sorry, did you know him before? Was he a friend of yours?

MR NKOSI: Yes he was once a friend of mine.

MR SHANE: Tell what happened when you saw him in the Blue Note tavern.

MR NKOSI: It was on a Sunday, we were at a meeting at Kathlele School. He was there in that meeting. We were going to discuss his case. We were expecting him to come and explain his position. There was a disturbance in that meeting to such an extent that that attempt was not successful. He left and he was told not to go. The decision was then taken that whenever heís found he should be killed. Whenever he is found should be killed.

MR SHANE: Who took that decision?

MR NKOSI: That was taken by the commanders in a meeting.

MR SHANE: Can you name any of the commanders.

MR NKOSI: The first commander is no more, the second one Ncosi, I donít know his surname.

MR SHANE: And the one that is no more, that means dead I presume, what was his name? What was the name of the commander who is no more?

MR NKOSI: The name of the commander was Thabo Sibeko.

...(inaudible section on tape)

MR SHANE: So you were acting on orders ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We didnít get the second name.

MR SHANE: Can you repeat the name of the commander.

MR NKOSI: Thabo Sibeko is the name of the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Thatís the deceased?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: What was the name of the other commander, just for completeness?

MR NKOSI: Ncosi.

CHAIRPERSON: Spelled

MR NKOSI: N†C†O†S†I.

MR SHANE: N†C†O†N S†I?

MR NKOSI: N†C†O†S†I.

CHAIRPERSON: Make up your minds.

MR SHANE: Now you, when you went to the Blue Note did you have information that Jabu Dube was there?

MR NKOSI: Yes, I had seen him there.

MR SHANE: You had seen him there, and you had also been given orders that he has to be killed?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Explain what happened when you saw the deceased, Jabu, in the Blue Note tavern.

MR NKOSI: I went inside the Blue Note tavern. The other group was waiting outside, SDU members, the group was waiting outside and I got inside because he knew me very well, and I called him outside. I left, we went to a circle, we took him with. We took him to a place that was behind the stadium

MR SHANE: So in other words you went into the tavern because he knew you, he used to be your friend, and he would have left with you? Was that the reason you went into the tavern?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he come freely?

MR NKOSI: When we disappeared through the passage that was between the house and the fence I had already told the soldiers that the person I would appear with, they should know that that is the person. And when we appeared the comrades had already pointed him with guns.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he come freely with you out of the tavern, or did you have to force him to come out?

MR NKOSI: I did not force him.

CHAIRPERSON: He came with you because you were, were a decoy? Did you make him believe that he was coming with a friend?

MR NKOSI: He did not know that there was a plan for him when he came.

MR SHANE: You went into the tavern alone, your other comrades who were waiting outside did not go into the tavern. Is that correct?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: What did you tell the deceased? What did you say to him?

MR NKOSI: What I can remember, when I found him inside the tavern and I told him that I want to see him, he wanted to know what was it all about, but at the end he left the house with me.

MR SHANE: And when he wanted to know what it was all about, what did you tell him?

MR NKOSI: The soldiers were nearer and they could see what was happening.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you manage to him out of the tavern?

MR NKOSI: I said he used to be a friend of mine and we used to stay together at Penduka section, as I was calling him he knew he did not know, he did not know that there was a plan, but he went out of the house because he knew me and he thought we were going to discuss something outside. He did not know that there was a plan ready for him.

MR SHANE: When you got outside, your other comrades who were with you, they also then must have seen the deceased. Is that correct?

MR NKOSI: Yes that is correct.

MR SHANE: What happened then, with you and your comrades and the deceased?

MR NKOSI: We took him with.

MR SHANE: When you took him did you drag him or did he walk himself?

MR NKOSI: He was asking for forgiveness on the way but the guns were pointed at him but we took him with.

MR SHANE: So he walked with guns pointed at him asking for forgiveness?

MR NKOSI: Yes that is correct.

MR SHANE: What did he want forgiveness for?

MR NKOSI: I wonít know because he was, I think he was also afraid because he was in that meeting that particular morning and he was told not to leave because the comrades wanted to see him after the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: But why would someone just ask for forgiveness without being told?

MR NKOSI: Will you please repeat the question sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Why would somebody ask for forgiveness, out of the blue, without knowing what his problem was or what heís being accused of?

MR NKOSI: In that situation, that war situation, when the comrades visit you with suspicions, and you feel guilty. He felt guilty that is why he was asking for forgiveness.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that?

MR NKOSI: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that he was feeling guilty?

MR NKOSI: The way he was taken from that place and when the guns were pointed at him he, it was clear to him that he was going to be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but thatís not the point. He asked for forgiveness, for what? You say he felt guilty. How do you know that?

MR NKOSI: Because he was an IFP member

CHAIRPERSON: Youíre guessing.

MR NKOSI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So you know that he felt guilty about being a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party and therefore he asked for forgiveness?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

MR SHANE: When he asked for forgiveness, did you speak to him or did your other comrades speak to him, and ask him why he was seeking forgiveness? Did you find out from him what he had done that he needed to be forgiven for?

CHAIRPERSON: Thatís putting the cart before the horse, isnít it? I would have expected them to have told him what he had done and therefore he was asking forgiveness.

MR SHANE: With respect Mr Chairman, things, as it emerges, things donít happen the way we would expect them to, with the greatest respect sir.

MR SHANE: Do you know why he wanted to be forgiven? Have you got any idea?

CHAIRPERSON: He wanted to be forgiven because he felt guilty because he was a member of Inkatha.

MR SHANE: Did the deceased himself tell you anything that he did wrong? Not, this is now not what you thought, but what the deceased himself said to you when he was asking for forgiveness. Did the deceased not mention anything he had done that he needed forgiveness for.

MR NKOSI: No.

MR SHANE: You then walked with him, guns pointing at him. Where did you go?

MR SHANE: We went to a place just behind the Tokoza stadium.

MR SHANE: Is that near or far from the tavern?

MR NKOSI: It was far from the tavern.

MR SHANE: And what happened at the stadium, or outside the stadium, what happened then?

MR NKOSI: When we arrived there, I instructed two gentlemen to shoot him.

MR SHANE: Who were these gentlemen you instructed to shoot him?

MR NKOSI: It was Nduduzi and Johannes.

MR SHANE: Were they both armed?

MR NKOSI: Yes that is correct.

MR SHANE: With AK-47's?

MR NKOSI: Yes, they had AK-47's.

MR SHANE: Were you armed?

MR NKOSI: No.

MR SHANE: How did you order them to kill him, what did you say?

MR NKOSI: I told them to take him, when we got behind the stadium they knew very well as they were told from the base that the person that would be brought that person should be killed. So these two boys had firearms, those are the guys that, those are the people that shot.

MR SHANE: And they shot him on your orders?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Did you witness them shooting him?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Do you know how many shots were fired by each of your comrades who you ordered?

MR NKOSI: No I cannot remember, but both firearms were used.

MR SHANE: What happened after he was shot? Did you just leave the body there or what did you do?

MR NKOSI: We went back to the bases.

MR SHANE: And you left the body where it was lying. Is that right?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Now, how do you feel, and you say this facing the bereaved family of the deceased, how do you feel about what you did?

MR NKOSI: I felt bad.

MR SHANE: Did you feel bad after the incident because he was your friend? Why did you feel bad?

MR NKOSI: It is because he was my neighbour but I had no choice, I had to do it.

MR SHANE: So you felt bad because you killed your neighbour and you had no choice, you were doing your duty?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: And now that the family, the bereaved family of the deceased are facing you, do you have anything to say to them now?

MR NKOSI: Yes there is something that I would like to say.

MR SHANE: Will you say it?

MR NKOSI: I would like to ask for forgiveness more especially his mother, the one I grew up in front of and his sisters, the whole family. I would like to ask for forgiveness.

MR SHANE: These people that you are asking forgiveness for are people that you knew, some of them you grew up with?

MR NKOSI: Yes that is correct.

MR SHANE: Now youíve also applied for amnesty for an attack on the Khumalo gang.

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: This was also in 1993?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Can you remember the month?

MR NKOSI: No.

MR SHANE: You state ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: In your application you say around November 1993. Is that ?

MR NKOSI: That could be possible but I cannot remember the month.

MR SHANE: Can you explain what happened with your attack on the Khumalo gang?

MR NKOSI: Will you please repeat the question, sir.

MR SHANE: Will you please explain the details of your attack on the Khumalo gang, for which you are seeking amnesty.

MR NKOSI: Those people were harassing us at our place of residence. As we were SDU members we decided to launch attacks against the Khumalo gang. We wanted to removed Khumalo because Khumalo was harassing us.

MR SHANE: Can you just give details? Who was this Khumalo and what was his political affiliations?

MR NKOSI: Khumalo was a church minister and he was also a member of Inkatha Freedom Party.

MR SHANE: How were the Khumalo gang harassing you?

MR NKOSI: They were killing us.

MR SHANE: When you say they were killing you, had people, can you name people who were actually killed by this gang?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

MR SHANE: Can you give a few names to the learned Committee?

MR NKOSI: I can remember some of them. At some stage Khumalo killed 12 people in the Tokoza community. That was New Year Eve, on the night of the New Year Eve. There is a boy from Tshabalala Street at the corner house, his name was Lucky, and one boy from Mbele family, his name was Happy, and one boy, I cannot remember the names of the others but thereís a lot of them.

MR SHANE: What, can you describe the attack, what you did, what actually you did in this attack on the Khumalo gang?

MR NKOSI: We wanted to demolish Khumaloís house and we wanted to kill them also.

MR SHANE: Right, so what did you do?

MR NKOSI: Sorry?

MR SHANE: What did you do?

MR NKOSI: His house was attacked, it was shot at, and the F1 bombs were used to demolish the house.

MR SHANE: Did you use the F1 bombs yourself, or did other people use the F1 bombs?

MR NKOSI: There was a unit that was responsible for handling the bombs, and the other were using the hammer. There was operation Shiza and operation Delisa.

MR SHANE: And you, what did you use, just a firearm or did you use bombs and hammers?

MR NKOSI: I was handling a firearm. I was handling a firearm. I used to carry a firearm.

MR SHANE: And what type of firearm?

MR NKOSI: AK-47.

MR SHANE: Do you know if you caused any death or any injuries to members of this Khumalo gang?

MR NKOSI: No.

MR SHANE: What you do know is that you caused damage to the house?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

MR SHANE: Is there anything else you wish to tell the learned Commissioners about your attacks on the Khumalo gang?

MR NKOSI: How, what do you mean?

MR SHANE: If you, you havenít really, that is all you can tell about the attack on the Khumalo gang. Is that correct?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just ask you, was this an attack on Mr Khumaloís house, or was it an attack on the people who followed him, or who were called the Khumalo gang? Just help me with that.

MR NKOSI: We wanted to destroy his followers and his house.

ADV GCABASHE: But this particular incident, what does it relate to? To both Mr Khumalo with his people inside the house, or just a attack on the house itself irrespective of who was inside?

MR NKOSI: The people who were staying there in the house was Khumalo and his boys and the soldiers who were safeguarding him and the other IFP members.

ADV GCABASHE: But on that particular day, was Mr Khumalo there? Were his followers, his gang, were any members of the gang there on that day?

MR NKOSI: They ran away.

ADV GCABASHE: They ran away as you approached or as you attacked?

MR NKOSI: They had information that there was an attack, that there would be an attack at the house.

ADV GCABASHE: So by the time you attacked they had fled and you attacked the house essentially?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Now I asked you because evidence was given of this attack in the hearings last year in December and I just wanted to make sure that itís the same incident that youíre referring to. Thank you.

MR SHANE: Okay, now Iím showing you a photograph of a person from an identity document. Can you identify this person?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

MR SHANE: Who is this person?

MR NKOSI: This is Mlazi Jabulane Dube.

MR SHANE: This is the person you murdered, or who was murdered on your orders, after he was taken from the Blue Light tavern. Is that correct?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Are you now at peace with the members of Inkatha and the Khumalo gang, is there now peace between you?

MR NKOSI: I wonít say so, but we are staying the IFP members, we are trying the best.

MR SHANE: Now when you were called you were limping, itís quite clear that your leg is injured. Can you tell how you got those injuries?

MR NKOSI: Yes, I was shot.

MR SHANE: When were you shot?

MR NKOSI: It was in 1993.

MR SHANE: Who shot you?

MR NKOSI: I donít know him but I know that he was an IFP member.

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is evidence.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Just for record purposes, the person who was actually killed, this John Dube, according to the death certificate he was killed on the 6th of September 1993 and his full correct names is Winston Jabulane and Iíll spell the surname N†Y†O†N†G†W†A†N†E. I beg your pardon Mr Chairman? Winston, W†I†N†S†T†O N, and then Jabulane with an†E Mr Chairman, and Nyongwane. This is also the person that was identified from his ID book document which was showed by, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ADV STEENKAMP: N†Y†O†N†G†W†A†N†E.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman I confirm that this is the name that appears in the identity document where the photo is that was identified by the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman according to the death certificate this person. ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry Mr Chairman I beg your pardon. According to the death certificate Mr Chairman this person was, died in Alberton, of unnatural causes on the 6th of September 1993. I think the applicant is referring only to September in his application.

Mr Chairman, the family of the late Mr Jabulane Nyongwane is present today. His mother is here, Mrs Esther Nyongwane. She is opposing the application of the applicant on the basis that the deceased was never a member of the IFP ...(indistinct). I would beg leave to as a few questions with regard to the applicant on the first instance. In the second instance Mr Chairman I would also beg leave to ask if it will be possible for Mrs Esther Nyongwane to say a few words. She wants to testify. I explained to her this is a decision that you have to make, but she instructed me to ask a few questions on the membership.

CHAIRPERSON: Weíll cross that bridge when we come to it.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Sir, according to the mother of the deceased, Mr Jabulane Nyongwane, or Mr Vincent Jabulane Nyongwane, was never a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party, or even a supporter. Do you have any comment on this?

MR NKOSI: Will you please repeat the question sir.

ADV STEENKAMP: The questionís actually quite easy. According to the family, the mother of the deceased, Mr Jabulane Nyongwane, or you call him Mr Jabulane Dube, they are saying he was never a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party. Do you have any comment on this?

MR NKOSI: He was an IFP member. Thereís nothing else I can say, but we had evidence. We didnít kill them if we did not have evidence.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you maybe just indicate to us how did you establish that Mr Nyongwane was actually an IFP member?

MR NKOSI: As I have already explained initially that he would be seen during the patrol during the night at Saville Street with Themba and the others, I cannot remember their names, but they were seen on that particular day and when Jabuís firearm was taken he was also involved. He was the one who took Jabuís firearm.

ADV GCABASHE: Can you just clarify that for me? Iím not sure I understand you well. Jabu was seen patrolling, yes?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: He was seen patrolling with IFP members?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you personally see him patrolling with IFP members?

MR NKOSI: I saw, I only saw him taking Jabuís firearm.

ADV GCABASHE: Now Jabu, the other Jabu, is one of your comrades, as SDU member, and thatís whose firearm was taken? Are we talking about two Jabulanes? Iím not sure I understand you.

MR NKOSI: Yes, we have two Jabus.

ADV GCABASHE: And you also indicated earlier that he, itís not just one firearm that was lost, it sounds like quite a few firearms were lost by Jabu Dube. Did I understand you correctly?

MR NKOSI: So weíre talking about one firearm going missing?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, what is the surname of this other Jabu whose firearm was taken?

MR NKOSI: Sorry.

MR SIBANYONI: What is the surname of the Jabu whose firearm was taken?

MR NKOSI: Madi is the surname.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman my instructions is that the family is only opposing the fact that the applicant is saying that the deceased was an IFP member. They canít contest the contents of the rest of the evidence, because they donít have any first hand factual information regarding this. Iím not going to waste, with all due respect to the Chairman, any further time on this. The basic fact is, as far as the family is concerned, that the deceased was never a member of the IFP. Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

ADV GCABASHE: On the same issue, did you ask Jabu about his membership of the IFP?

MR NKOSI: No.

ADV GCABASHE: But you were his friend. Why didnít you in particular go out of your way to find out whether it was true or not?

MR NKOSI: At that particular time there was no time to question because the order was already issued, one was supposed to do his job.

ADV GCABASHE: Did anybody else verify for you, the commander, that Jabu was indeed an IFP member?

MR NKOSI: That was heard when there was a meeting Khatlele School.

ADV GCABASHE: Now just help me understand this. Was this one report of one time that somebody saw Jabu with IFP members?

MR NKOSI: On that day of the meeting, we heard that it happened one Friday he was seen entering the Penduka section and at the time the people from the other section were not allowed to get into Penduka section because the people had already vacated their houses. Jabu was seen going to his home. He was coming from work.

ADV GCABASHE: So his parents, his mother, still lived in Penduka, and this where he was going to. Is that a correct summary?

MR NKOSI: I am not sure that he, I am not sure whether his mother is still staying there, but I see her sometimes.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, I probably didnít express this properly. At the time Jabu was seen going to Penduka, was his mother still living in Penduka? Was his home still in Penduka? At that time, in 1993?

MR NKOSI: I did not see his mother there but if my memory serves me well I think both his parents were there, were still there at Penduka section, if Iím not mistaken. I am not sure about that.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, the reason I ask you this is because you have told us you were the commander and you gave the order that he should be killed. Iím really trying to find out what the basis of the order was. Why, you gave that order? You would give that order because you had certain information. Am I right, so far?

MR NKOSI: Yes, but I was also in the meeting on a Sunday. It was the SDU meeting that was held at Khatlele School that is where the decisions were taken as to who, what people, who, what people were to be killed and amongst those names Jabuís name was there.

ADV GCABASHE: But as I understand your testimony, you are saying that the incident that he was, or that the members referred to, was the one time that he went into Penduka after all your comrades had moved out of Penduka. Is that correct?

MR NKOSI: Yes, we were not at Penduka section at the time.

ADV GCABASHE: What Iím just trying to find out is, were there other times that he was seen to go into what you considered to be enemy territory? Or are we really just talking about one time? This is all Iím trying to establish.

MR NKOSI: Iíll try and explain this. There were people who would say that they did not go to Penduka, but those people would be seen entering Penduka section and they would go and visit their friends or relative at Penduka section, Ďthough those people were said not to be entering that place.

ADV GCABASHE: But you would not necessarily kill those people, because you knew that their families remained in Penduka. Or am I wrong?

MR NKOSI: We were forced by the situation because there was a certain date that was set by the SDUís that on such and such a date if the people were not, all the people were not at Slovo section or Tambo section, the people who would be left at the Penduka section would be regarded as Inkatha members.

ADV GCABASHE: So you are, am I correct in saying that it is quite possible in that case that he indeed was not an IFP member and that he was just visiting his family, on the occasion that he was seen going to Penduka after the cut-off date?

MR NKOSI: I agree and at the same time I disagree with that. It might happen that he was not a member of IFP and we did not know his movement whenever he was in that Penduka section. But when we were at Tambo Slovo he did not want to appear so we did not understand his position. We couldnít understand his movement but the decision was taken to remove him.

ADV GCABASHE: You couldnít understand why he would not come and talk to you if he was indeed still one of your comrades essentially. And is this what eventually led to your decision to kill him? The fact that he wouldnít come and talk to you about where he stood.

MR NKOSI: I do not have evidence to that effect.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

You said when he was called to a meeting, or he left the meeting, when he was told that you wanted to see him, is that correct?

MR NKOSI: Yes that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: At that stage he had not been told about the allegations against him, when he left. Is that so?

MR NKOSI: It used to happen that if there was a certain suspect in a community we wouldnít show that and indicate that something was going to be done. That particular suspect would be free just like anyone.

MR SIBANYONI: If he didnít leave the meeting, what was going to happen? Were you going to confront him about the allegation, or was there any action supposed to be taken against him?

MR NKOSI: I cannot tell because if the instruction was already issued that someone is supposed to be killed, all the soldiers knew that he was supposed to be killed. I cannot say anything about his safety, whether if he did stay he was to be safe or not. I cannot say anything about that.

MR SIBANYONI: So if we understand you correctly, there is no stage where these allegations were put to him, until the time the action was taken?

MR NKOSI: He had other comrades that were telling him and they told him that he is no longer trustworthy among the comrades. His only alternative was for him to come forward and explain his position.

MR SIBANYONI: So the basis of the suspicion that his is an IFP member was solely on the ground that he visited Penduka section?

MR NKOSI: That was not all, the people who harassed, or who were harassing us in some way, that if one would be seen during the times while the people were still staying at Penduka and people would be seen at the meetings or in taverns. He had Zulu friends and other comrades turned against him because they could see that this person had another agenda that was different from ours. Thatís when the people started to distance themselves from him. We heard that from other comrades that they could no longer trust him because of his movement.

MR SIBANYONI: At which section was this tavern situated?

MR NKOSI: It was at Penduka section.

MR SIBANYONI: Was it frequented both by IFP people as well as people who were not IFP?

MR NKOSI: The tavern was frequented by us, but because of the situation that was, it became apparent to us that it was not safe for us to go there, so we decided to stay away from that tavern.

MR SIBANYONI: At that stage when you went to fetch him nobody but only IFP members frequented that tavern?

MR NKOSI: I thought you were asking me about the tavern that was in Penduka section. The tavern where, the tavern where he was fetched, it is far away from this tavern that is in Penduka. This other tavern he was first at Vergenoeg but the other one was at Penduka section. Iím not sure if you understand.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You were commander of the area?

MR NKOSI: What area?

CHAIRPERSON: Slovo section and the Tokoza Garden section.

MR NKOSI: I was a soldier at Slovo section, at Tokoza Gardens I was a commander. I was a commander in Tokoza Gardens.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where this murder of Jabulane took place, was that an area in which you would have been a commander?

MR NKOSI: Behind the stadium, Iím not sure whether the stadium falls under Vergenoeg or Tokoza Gardens. But Tokoza Gardens is on the other side.

CHAIRPERSON: In any case you assumed the commanderís position when you were the one that gave orders for him to be shot. Whether you were entitled to do so or not, you did so. Not so?

MR NKOSI: Will you please repeat your question, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Whether you were entitled by your status as a commander or not, in that area, you did in fact give the order for him to be shot. Not so?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you assumed at the very least the position or the rank of the commander in those circumstances when he was shot. Correct?

MR NKOSI: I was a former Self-Defence Unit from Tokoza Gardens.

CHAIRPERSON: Look I donít know if weíre misunderstanding each other or not. On what basis were you entitled to give the command for him to be shot? Ordinary soldiers donít do that, or they canít do that.

MR NKOSI: I was a commander in Tokoza Gardens. I was working for Penduka, Penduka section, because there was no need to leave the firearms at Tokoza Gardens whereas the battlefield was Penduka section.

Can I go on?

As I was in Tokoza Gardens I was also a subordinate at Tambo Slovo section, as a person who was coming from Penduka section. But I would use the firearms from Tokoza Gardens at Tambo Slovo section.

CHAIRPERSON: Well answer this simple question for me. Were you entitled to give the order for ...(intervention)

MR NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dube to be killed?

MR NKOSI: Yes because I was also instructed so I had to issue an instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did no in your capacity as a commander. Do I understand you correctly?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And he would not have been shot without your order to do so?

MR NKOSI: He was going to be killed anyway.

CHAIRPERSON: Now then, there you first had to order it before it was done. Correct?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now weíve had a witness here, previous applicant, Victor Mabaso, do you know him? - Muchacho.

MR NKOSI: Yes, I know him.

CHAIRPERSON: And he testified to us here this morning that you know, it was almost policy to find out and make sure, especially about the position of those that were intended to be killed. Did you hear him say so?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore there were sort of enquiries held before decisions to kill were taken.

MR NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I just want to ask wasnít Jabulane asked whether he was a member of Inkatha or not, before he was killed?

MR NKOSI: The reason for that I do not know, but I was given an instruction to kill him, whether he was asked or not, but the instruction was issued.

CHAIRPERSON: At that meeting?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before he died was that meeting, or did that meeting take place?

MR NKOSI: That, he was killed on the night of the meeting. I cannot remember the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the meeting on the same day?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you were in the tavern, when you lured him out, why didnít you ask him then, Mr Dube, are you a member of Inkatha?

MR NKOSI: Some of us were so impatient, we did not have time to ask questions. We would act according to instruction and we would ask afterward, we would ask questions after the action.

CHAIRPERSON: But in your case you were commander. Not so?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were sent in there to lure him out of the tavern. Would you not have been able to, had you asked him and he said no, would you not have been able to go to your superiors and say, look but we made a mistake, this man is not an IFP member? Canít we discuss the matter again? Heís willing to come to us.

MR NKOSI: There was no time for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR NKOSI: As I have explained initially, during those times we did not have time to question. One would be lucky to be questioned, to get that opportunity. Because some people wouldnít be questioned. He was so unfortunate that no questions were asked.

CHAIRPERSON: And that decision to kill him was taken without him being present?

MR NKOSI: The decision was taken after he had left the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: And was he asked whether he was a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party, at that meeting?

MR NKOSI: No, he was not asked.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he spoken to?

MR NKOSI: The other boys with him who wanted to bring him closer during his case.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he given an opportunity to confirm or deny his membership of Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR NKOSI: They were still busy with the others inside the office. They were coming in one by one. He was also in the list after the others.

CHAIRPERSON: So why was he then killed without being given an opportunity to say what his position was?

MR NKOSI: Maybe the commander who issued that instruction would be in a better position to respond to that question, but he is no more. I do not have any answer to that question.

CHAIRPERSON: You were there.

MR NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you carried out that instruction through another instruction. Not so?

MR NKOSI: There was a lot of us in that meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: You have indicated that you are seeking forgiveness from the members of the deceasedís family. Do you recall that?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you made any attempt to visit them in order to talk to them and make peace with them?

MR NKOSI: No, but I am, I was willing just before this hearing, I was willing to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didnít you make an attempt to visit them?

MR NKOSI: I requested a lady to accompany me because I did not want this to be heard in public. I wanted it to be a matter that would be discussed with the family, but unfortunately that did not happen.

CHAIRPERSON: If you get an opportunity to make your peace with them now, are you prepared to do so?

MR NKOSI: Yes, I have peace with the family.

CHAIRPERSON: You donít know if they have peace with you, thatís the point. Iím asking you, if you had an opportunity to talk to them now, are you prepared to do so?

MR NKOSI: Yes, but I donít know what their response would be, what would be their response.

CHAIRPERSON: You wonít know until you try, isnít it? Have you perhaps asked your attorney to make arrangements for that?

MR NKOSI: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: And?

MR NKOSI: I was not successful because it was already late, it was time to appear in front of this Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you intend to pursue that aspect?

MR NKOSI: Yes, I am prepared to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, you indicated that the mother of the deceased would want to say something. Iím going to leave it in your hands to decide whether it is a matter that she wants to deal with to the general public, or say certain things to the witness. Iím going to allow you the opportunity now, so that she doesnít have to attend the hearing unless she so chooses herself. But her business would have been completed.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman. I will, if possible - I donít know what the time line is the Committee is working on. Mr Chairman, if you would allow me just a second just to speak to her in the meantime Mr Chairman. Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you - Mr Steenkamp is going to find out if she needs the witness here. Youíd better ask her.

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes sir. Mr Chairman it seems that the mother is adamant that she wants to say a few words to the applicant. Thank you for the indulgence Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman her surname exactly is the same as that of Mr Jabulane Nyongwane, itís also her surname and her first name is Esther, Mrs Esther Nyongwane.

If, with your indulgence Mr Chairman, sheís being assisted here by a family member, and if that will be allowed. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Nyongwane what language would you prefer to use?

MRS NYONGWANE: Zulu

CHAIRPERSON: Iím going to allow you to say a few words. Do you want it to be a sworn statement, or do you just want to address certain people. I donít know if you understand what is meant by a sworn statement?

MRS NYONGWANE: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: Is she taking the oath?

ESTHER NYONGWANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed.

MRS NYONGWANE: I can hear what you are saying. Whatís your name by the way? Sidney. You would kill Jabulane without coming to me as Jabulaneís parent, to tell me that, mama, here is Jabulane and there are suspicions like this, knowing very well that Jabulane was an ANC member not Inkatha.

Sidney, my child, what made you not to come to me to tell me that Jabulane did this and that? And tell me about the rumours that you heard? I did not take you as enemies, my childís enemies, that you can even plan to kill Jabulane saying that he was an IFP member, knowing very well that Jabulane was an ANC member. How could he be an IFP member, staying with you for six weeks at Vergenoeg, and kill him in the seventh week, knowing very well where his grandparents were staying and where his parents were staying. Please tell me my child, what made you to do that?

MR NKOSI: Mam ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you - Mrs Nyongwane. Iím taking notes of the issues you want to raise with him. I will ask him on your behalf. If you want to say anything further, please say it.

MRS NYONGWANE: Why didnít you come to me, as you were staying with him and he used to help you with a lot of things, he used to support you financially and with food whenever he gets his salary or wages? Why didnít you come to me to tell me that there was a plan against Jabulane? How do you feel today if, when you see me like this, all alone? Jabulane used to pay my rent, he used to support me. You know very well about my condition, and you used to be free at my home. What made you to do such things? I am all alone today. How do you feel? You see me walking up and down, Iím afraid to go back to my house, I cannot trust you. I cannot trust you at all. As you see me walking up and down I cannot trust you.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman that will be all. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: She can go back to her seat and listen to the answers as Iím going to put.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman if I may just, thereís just one question apparently the mother wants raised. She wants to know exactly what happened to the clothes of the deceased. Thatís the only question. Thank you Mr Chairman.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Now Mr Nkosi, youíve heard what the mother of the deceased has raised. Iím going to deal with the issues one by one as I understand them, and if you want to you can respond. Do you understand?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Nyongwane has said that the deceased stayed with you for six week before he was killed. You knew where his grandparents stayed, and where his parents stayed. What is your comment about that?

MR NKOSI: Yes, we knew.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what?

MR NKOSI: We knew where his parents were staying, but during that six weeks that she is talking about, I know nothing about the six weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: She says six weeks before he died he stayed with you.

MR NKOSI: No, he was not staying with us. He was at Vergenoeg.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, she says at Vergenoeg with you.

MR NKOSI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that didnít happen?

MR NKOSI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: She says further that he supported you, financially and with food. Whatís your comment on that?

MR NKOSI: As I have already indicated initially when I was giving evidence here, we used to be together, that is true, I never ran away from that truth. He was more like a home boy to us. Everything that she had said, that we would be in his home and we used to be happy in his presence at his home and I used to drive his car, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, I think what sheís trying to get at is that you were so close to him you ought to have known that he was a member of the ANC, and not the IFP. What is your comment on that?

MR NKOSI: As we were staying with him, we wouldnít reveal at Penduka section, whether one was IFP or ANC. That was to be a top secret, not to reveal yourself, because the environment was not safe. It was not safe to tell the people about the organisation that you belonged to.

CHAIRPERSON: And his mother wants to know also what happened to his clothes?

MR NKOSI: We left him there, we fled.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know, do you not know how he lost his clothes?

MR NKOSI: No, I do not have an idea.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the most important question that she wishes to be answered by you, is why you never approached her. You knew where she stays, or stayed at the time. Why did you not approach her and tell her, this is what her son is getting up to, and maybe matters could have been sorted out that way. You knew her.

MR NKOSI: I want to say again that during those times people got injured and their families were known. There was no time to go and visit their families, or explain to the mothers, because in some families they did not even know what happened to their loved ones. That did not come to my mind, that such a process should take place, that people should go to the family of a suspect and report whatever.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean it never came to your mind? You were close to the family, he was close to you, it seems that you knew the family and thatís why Mrs Nyongwane has asked why didnít you come to her, you knew her, to raise the problems with her, instead of killing her son.

MR NKOSI: I did not have time, because we were staying far away from her, and to get some information that would come from the meeting. No-one came as I saw him for the very first, I saw her for the very first time in a meeting as the people were going back to their places. I never used to see her, because this happened suddenly, and there was no time for me to go and report to the family, because the instruction was already, had been issued at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long did you suspect that the deceased was indulging in IFP activities?

MR NKOSI: If Iím not mistaken, we were still at Pen, as we were still at Penduka there were rumours that he was selling out. We did not have evidence at that time, till such time that we left Penduka and we got more evidence from other people who used to see these things happening.

CHAIRPERSON: How long, two days, two weeks, two months? For how long did you suspect that he was dealing with the IFP?

MR NKOSI: Will you please repeat the question sir.

CHAIRPERSON: For what period before he died, was there a suspicion, or talk, that Mr Dube was indulging in IFP activities?

MR NKOSI: Iíll say this, I cannot say, but what used to happen in the section, there used to be a list that would be compiled and that list had people, peopleís names, people who would be killed. It was a long list and Jabulaneís name was there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkosi, Iím asking you a simple question. How long, or for how long, did you suspect that Mr Dube was indulging in IFP activities?

MR NKOSI: Quite a long time. I cannot mention in terms of months or days, but it was quite a long time.

CHAIRPERSON: More than one week?

MR NKOSI: Two to three years.

CHAIRPERSON: Years?

MR NKOSI: Yes, years.

CHAIRPERSON: And you never found a single opportunity to approach his mother during that period, because you were so busy? Is that what you are saying?

MR NKOSI: I did not have time to go to his family as this problem was in my hands. I did not have time to go and talk to his family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, if I may, just arising from that, just ask one question. Mr Nkosi, did you, when you gave the order, and when you were also given the order, that Jabu was to be killed, did you have any doubt, whether he was or not, what was in your mind, was there any doubt, as to his membership and support of the IFP?

MR NKOSI: Yes. I was suspecting him as, I was suspecting him, that he was an IFP member.

MR SHANE: Yes. Did you have any doubt about it? In other words, were you sure that he was an IFP member?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane maybe that horse is going to be reincarnated, I think.

ADV GCABASHE: He had already answered the question Mr Shane. He said he suspected. He himself, suspected Jabu.

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is evidence from this applicant.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Nkosi the people who joined you, left Penduka and joined you at Vergenoeg, did I understand it correctly?

MR NKOSI: What people are you talking about?

MR SIBANYONI: People who did not want to be suspected to be IFP members, were given a deadline to move away from Penduka. Were they supposed to come to Vergenoeg?

MR NKOSI: Yes. But that was not only Vergenoeg, there was a no-go, a place that was declared a no-go area from Buthelezi, and the people who ran, fled to Tambo Slovo section. Therefore if you went, were beyond that no point you would be associated with Inkatha. Then from Buthelezi, beyond that point of Buthelezi, the people there were regarded as ANC members.

MR SIBANYONI: So did Jabu also leave Penduka and join you at Vergenoeg, for these six months the mother was talking about?

MR NKOSI: I saw Jabu after a long time, after leaving Penduka, I saw him at Vergenoeg. I hadnít seen him at Penduka for a very long time. I did not know where he fled to, but I saw him at Vergenoeg and I did not stay with him there for a long time.

MR SIBANYONI: But you did see him at Vergenoeg?

MR NKOSI: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you saying that you never knew that he was an ANC member?

MR NKOSI: No.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

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