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Amnesty Hearings

Type AMNESTY HEARING

Starting Date 11 February 1999

Location JOHANNESBURG

Day 4

Names LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE

Matter MURDER OF ANNAH MINGI FENI

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning to you all. This is the 11th day of February 1999. This Panel comprising myself, Judge Khampepe. On my right-hand side, Advocate Francis Bosman, on my left-hand side, Mr Ilan Lax.

Will counsel appearing for the applicant in the matter we are going to hear please place himself on record.

MR MOTEPE: My name is Advocate Jabu Motepe, I'm appearing for the applicant in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: You instruction by which firm of attorneys?

MR MOTEPE: I was instructed directly by the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you're instructions are from the Legal Aid Board.

MR MOTEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: I'm Ms Thabile Thabete for the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Today we are going to hear the application of Mr Levy Ramonana Makoe. Is that the person who are appearing for, Mr Motepe?

MR MOTEPE: That is correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he going to give any oral evidence?

MR MOTEPE: Well we have prepared an affidavit, but we might just want to ask one or two questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Makoe, will you please stand up to take an oath.

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may sit down.

The ball is in your court, Mr Motepe.

MR MOTEPE: As I've already indicated, Madam Chair, Members of the Committee, I have prepared an affidavit and I wish to read it into the record if that will please you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to read it into the record or do you simply want to have Mr Makoe confirming the correctness thereof, and merely traverse issues that you feel are important for him to traverse? Would that curtail our proceedings?

MR MOTEPE: Well whatever will please this Committee I'll be willing to follow.

CHAIRPERSON: I feel that you should traverse issues that you feel should be traversed in viva voce, otherwise let your confirm the correctness of the contents of the affidavit.

MR MOTEPE: At this stage, should I ask him directly in Sotho?

CHAIRPERSON: In whatever language you may choose to do so, it will be translated into English. Our record is in English. You may do so in Sesotho.

EXAMINATION BY MR MOTEPE: As the Court pleases.

Mr Makoe, I prepared this affidavit and you've signed it. I've explained everything in this particular affidavit. Can you tell the Committee that you understood everything that I told you, that you actually instructed me to put in there?

MR MAKOE: That is correct.

MR MOTEPE: Do you agree that this is your evidence?

MR MAKOE: Yes, I do.

MR MOTEPE: It has been confirmed. May I hand it up?

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so, Mr Motepe, and it will be Exhibit B. Before you proceed with your client's evidence, Mr Motepe, we just want to get clarity in respect of the actual offences for which amnesty is being sought by Mr Makoe. We do not have a copy of the record so we are unable to establish whether Mr Makoe was convicted of robbery and also of contravening the offences which appear on page 202, which is the copy of the indictment.

MR MOTEPE: My instructions are that he was convicted on a count of murder and these other three concerning arms and ammunition. Those are the only ones where amnesty is being sought. I don't know if that is enough.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, maybe you may then when you lead him in his evidence, because no mention has been made at all of the offences relating to the unlawful possession of firearms and weapons, that does not appear in his application form. We will however allow you to apply for an amendment in order to include those two offences.

MR MOTEPE: The amendment I have to do it in a written ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You can formally do it now.

MR MOTEPE: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: You can just bring it to our attention that your instructions are to apply for amnesty in respect of the murder as well as in respect of unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition.

MR MOTEPE: May I be given about two minutes ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, consider it done, you've now done so.

MR MOTEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Motepe.

MR MOTEPE: Now Mr Makoe, you were convicted for possession of firearms and ammunition as well, and you haven't stated anything about that in the affidavit, do you wish to, can you please tell the Committee where you got those arms, were you licensed? Were you licensed to have the firearm and the ammunition, that is the bullets?

MR MAKOE: I was not licensed to be in possession of ammunition and weapons, these were the unit's weapons and ammunition.

MR MOTEPE: What do you mean when you say the unit?

MR MAKOE: I'm referring to the Self Defence Unit.

MR MOTEPE: Who specifically gave you those ammunitions and weapons?

MR MAKOE: These were distributed by the commander of the unit. How we got them, we got them by disarming the police.

MR MOTEPE: Okay. Now did you - the particular weapon that he had, did you disarm the police of the specific firearm that was in your position?

MR MAKOE: The unit disarmed the police was so this firearm was also found in that process of disarming the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe, the way I understand your client to be saying is that the weapons were used by the unit at large were weapons which had been obtained inter alia by disarming policemen, and that is how the unit at large was able to obtain the weapons that were used. However, maybe you should find out from him what firearm was used in this incident for which amnesty is being sought. - the incident being the murder of the person for whom he is applying for amnesty.

What firearm did you have with you when you killed Anna Mingi Feni?

MR MOTEPE: Can you first tell us what kind of firearm was it.

MR MAKOE: It was a 9mm Z88.

MR MOTEPE: Was it loaded, how many?

MR MAKOE: It had 15 bullets in the magazine and the one was in the chamber.

MR MOTEPE: You've already indicated that this was a unit firearm and you were given it by the commander. For the record, who was this man?

MR MAKOE: I only know him by his combat name, Ace.

MR MOTEPE: Okay. In your evidence you told us that you shot at the victim and her sister was next to you at that time. Now when you shot this person, and there was a witness, can you please explain to the Committee did it not come to your mind that she would be a witness against you? Was it not easy for you to eliminate her as well? Why did you only think of killing this Feni? MR MAKOE: The commander ordered me to eliminate the victim. I would not at any stage, at any point go beyond those orders. I knew that the sister would be the witness in the Court of law but I would not take the law into my own hands and shoot the person I was not ordered to shoot. That is the reason why I shot at the only person I was ordered to.

MR MOTEPE: If I understand you well, you were only following the orders.

MR MAKOE: As a soldier I was supposed to follow the orders, I was not in the position to follow any other order, but the only order that I was given.

MR MOTEPE: Did you use these weapons for any other reason?

MR MAKOE: No, we had these firearms for defence in the township, but we never used them anywhere.

MR MOTEPE: Now if I understand you well, you used these weapons and ammunitions only when you were given orders, or could you use them on your own?

MR MAKOE: I said I would never go beyond given orders. I would not use these weapons and ammunitions for my own good, I would only use them when an order was given out. And I told you these weapons had never been used before this incident, but they were in my possession all the time until I was arrested.

MR MOTEPE: Madam Chair and Members of the Committee, most of the evidence is in the affidavit, I don't know if I should highlight some of the things, which specific ones.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, is this murder opposed?

MS THABETE: No, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to put to Mr Makoe?

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTEPE

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair, thank you, just a few questions.

Mr Makoe, exactly what were the instructions you were given by Mr Ace Chanyela(?)?

MR MAKOE: The order that I was given by the commander, Chanyela, was that I should go and remove from the community an enemy. We had just arrived in that township and I did not hesitate to go and execute that order. I knew that this person was dangerous to the community. This person could have acted as an informer. Now the situation was very tense ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: May I stop you? Confine your responses to questions put to you. The question was what were the instructions given to you by Mr Chanyela. Just confine your response to what has been put to you. You are now going on to elaborate about why this person was targeted by Mr Chanyela, and information which no ground has been given, on which you can now be in a position to give information which is within your, which would reside with you.

Now you acted on instructions or on orders from Mr Chanyela, is it not so? Would it have mattered whether this person was dangerous or not? That is not in any case the question which is being put to you.

You may proceed, Ms Thabete, if you want to pursue the evidence that hinged on the other aspect of your question, that was volunteered by the applicant without any question being put to him by you.

MS THABETE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr Makoe, you're saying that Mr Chanyela told you to eliminate the enemy, that's the instruction he gave you, did he give you a specific instruction to kill Ms Feni?

MR MAKOE: That is correct.

MS THABETE: Did he that is correct.

MS THABETE: Did he give any reasons why she should be killed?

MR MAKOE: He did not give me the reason. What he said was that Annah Feni is back in the township and he gave me an order to eliminate her, that's all.

MS THABETE: Thank you, no further questions, Madam Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman, do you have any questions to put to Mr Makoe?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Just one question, Chairperson.

You say in this affidavit at paragraph 9, which is at page 2 of the affidavit, and I'll read you the whole thing so that the context is there. This is where you get to the victim's house and you find an elderly woman and some children preparing for school. You say you greeted and asked for the victim to come outside so that you can talk to her.

"She came with me outside"

You say then, and this is the important part relating to my question:

"Suddenly her sister showed up and told me there was nothing I can do as she had already spoken to the street committee."

You said that you had orders which you had to fulfil and then you shot her. My question is this; why didn't you stop and listen to what she was trying to tell you before you executed her?

MR MAKOE: There is only one reason after I was told that there is nothing I could do because they had spoken to the street committee. I was only executing the order that was given to my by my commander, I had not point in listening to any other person. That is why I executed an order.

MR LAX: Well is it not correct that the SDUs operated under the control of the street committees?

MR MAKOE: Yes, you are correct. That is why when she told me about the street committee, this happened in the morning and the order was issued out a day before, that was at night, I just carried out an order because I did not know whether the commander met with the street committee or not.

What I know is that I was given an order by the commander and I had to execute that order. I would not defy his orders.

MS THABETE: Well it's a very simple matter, why didn't you make sure before you killed this person that what the sister was telling you might have been true, either with your commander or with the street committee or with both?

MR MAKOE: I think it is stated clearly in the documents that I was supposed to execute an order before 8.30, half past eight. That is why I executed this order because the time was nearing the limit, it was twenty past eight.

I would not retreat from an order. The commander did not tell me that should you encounter problems come back to me, he said go execute an order.

MS THABETE: You had to eliminate the victim by 8 o'clock, that is what you said in paragraph 7 of your affidavit. Now my question remains, were your orders so categorical that any changed circumstances couldn't be taken into account?

MR MAKOE: There was no way of listening to any other person, the commander had taken out an order. As a foot solider I was supposed to execute what I was given. Had I concentrated on something else, that would have been a defiance. I was only acting on orders.

MS THABETE: Well after you had shot her, did you go to your commander and did you say; listen, I may have made a mistake here because this woman said to me that the street committee had said I shouldn't kill her, but I wasn't going to listen to her I did it anyway? Didn't you raise that with your commander afterwards?

MR MAKOE: I think it was in the afternoon round about past five when I went to the commander. I wanted to explain to him that I fulfilled the mission. He said well I know what happened, what you can do is to be in the hide-out during the day and come out at night. Now that statement; "I know what happened" gave me the impression that he knew everything and he gave me and order to move out of the area.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just as a follow-up from the questions that have been put to you by Mr Lax, I think it's common cause that you regarded, no, the common cause that there was a conflict in your area between the IFP and the ANC, is it not so?

MR MAKOE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And in your affidavit you say that Ms Feni was regarded as an IFP spy and therefore an enemy of your community, which community was largely ANC, is it not so?

MR MAKOE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the sister that showed up when you came in to execute your order, was she a member of the IFP or was she perceived to be an IFP person?

MR MAKOE: Which sister, the sister who approached when an order was about to be executed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MAKOE: She stayed in the township. There was no way of suspecting her of being a member of the IFP. She stayed with us in the township right through, she was a member of the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she related to Ms Feni, was she a blood relative of Ms Feni?

MR MAKOE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe her when she said she had already spoken to the street committee, or you thought that it was just an attempt to try and save a member of her family for the death which you were about to befall on her?

MR MAKOE: When she said she had been to the street committee already, I took that as a measure of protecting a member of the family. And that statement actually encouraged me on what the commander has ordered me to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when were you ordered by Ace to eliminate Ms Feni, can you estimate? The order was carried out on the 22nd of September 1992, no, you were instructed on the 21st of September 1992, is that when you were given this order to eliminate Ms Feni?

MR MAKOE: The order was given to me on the 21st of September.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Chanyela, that being Ace, give you a reason why the order had to be carried out not later than eight the following day?

MR MAKOE: As a member of his unit I did not have the authority to question him or ask him why he wanted an order to be executed before that time, I had to follow orders only.

CHAIRPERSON: I know you followed orders, my question is did he advance any reason why his order had to be carried out by no later than 8 o'clock? Did he advance any reason?

MR MAKOE: No, he did not advance any reason, but as a soldier I was not supposed to ask for reasons, I was going to ask for reasons after I had completed the job.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not saying you should have asked for a reason, I'm just asking whether your instructions were not followed by an explanation why an order had to be carried out by a particular time.

MR MAKOE: He did not give me reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: You must listen to a question carefully so that you are able to give us the information that is sought from a particular question.

Where did Ace stay?

MR MAKOE: I did not know his actual place of stay.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you interact with him? He was your commander, did you have a place where your unit met and from where you were given instructions by him?

MR MAKOE: The commissar of the unit who was his vice, advised us of the meeting points each time we were supposed to meet. At times he would give us the meeting places individually.

CHAIRPERSON: And when this order was issued to you, where were you?

MR MAKOE: On the day of the issuing of the order I was going to my patrol point.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in a house, were you in a meeting with other unit members? I am trying to establish the place where Ace and yourself were when this order was given by him.

MR MAKOE: We were next to the shops where I used to patrol. He knew exactly where to find each person he wanted. That's how he managed to come to the point which I was about to patrol, he found me right there.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this outside the place where you patrolled?

MR MAKOE: It was in the street. We only got into the houses, into the yards, for cover but he knew that I would be around that area.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe, emanating from the questions to Mr Makoe by this Panel, do you have any re-examination to do on Mr Makoe?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTEPE: Indeed, Madam Chair.

Mr Makoe, when the sister came to stop you, telling you that she has spoken to the street committee, did you know her as a member of the street committee?

MR MAKOE: No, I did not know members of the street committee as such. Whether she was a member of the street committee or not, I did not know.

MR MOTEPE: Did she tell you where she met with the street committee, did they hold a meeting or did she speak with one member of the street committee?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe, what is the relevance of the information you are seeking from your client and from which you want it to form part of the evidence in respect of his application? Does it have any bearing at all?

MR MOTEPE: Indeed, I believe so. I believe for him to follow his orders, that is defying what the lady was saying, he must have had a reasonable belief that at least she actually didn't meet the street committee.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that's not his evidence. The evidence before us is that in any event Mr Makoe did not believe the lady, that what she was saying was the truth and that he believed that the lady would say anything in order to protect her relative from being killed. That's the evidence. Do you think you can take that issue any further in view of the fact that we have that kind of evidence before us?

MR MOTEPE: One just wanted to make sure that there is no blemish on his evidence, but if the Committee is satisfied I will stop there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because you are now seeking to elicit information which would make us question how you(sic) would have known that there had been a meeting, because he did not give the lady even an opportunity to give any elaborate explanation about the content of the street committee meeting because he did not believe. That is the evidence before me.

MR MOTEPE: My apologies, I will stop. I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTEPE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you propose to call any further witnesses in support of Mr Makoe's application?

MR MOTEPE: No, not at all, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You therefore close your case in respect of his application?

MR MOTEPE: That is correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, I believe there are no victims in this matter and this matter is unopposed.

MS THABETE: That is correct, Madam Chair. Mr Motepe, are you in a position to address us now that you have closed your client's case?

MR MOTEPE: That is so indeed, Madam Chair.

MR LAX: You just need to put your mike on, Mr Motepe.

CHAIRPERSON: Please make sure that Mr Makoe's mike is off and yours is on, thank you.

MR MOTEPE ADDRESSES COMMITTEE: Well we listened to the evidence of Mr Makoe as supplemented by the affidavit, and one can just ask himself a question as to the background of the applicant, whether he was a person who was involved in politics or not, and he says that very clearly ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why should we ask ourselves?

MR MOTEPE: I'm not entering into the details, I'm just passing there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't want details about that. Just address us on whether the offence is an offence that can be associated with a political objective, that's all, bearing in mind that of course his version is a simple one, he was acting on instructions, he only executed the order of a commander.

MR MOTEPE: Well then I should move straight to the motive, as the Committee would like it to be. The question then should be asked, was he indeed following orders of the commander and was there a political motive behind it, but first you have to find out was there any other reason except the political motive.

And in my submission you couldn't say that there was any personal gain, there was no monies, no spite, as the Act 34/95 will want that to be clarified. There was no personal gain, there was no monies, there was no spite.

In fact the only reasonable conclusion, if one analyses the evidence correctly, is that due to the circumstances prevailing then, the political situation, the tensions between the ANC and Inkatha which are common cause to this Committee, the applicant had no choice but to follow the command of his commander as it were and to indeed eliminate the victim.

Should I continue?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please continue.

MR MOTEPE: And it is not an act that on his own he just decided to go about, he actually had instructions to eliminate this particular victim. And as he had testified, a person in his position, that is a trained soldier, couldn't question the commander's command ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That is not in dispute, we are not querying whether he had any need to question the orders.

MR MOTEPE: As I've already stated, from the evidence which is not disputed it is very clear indeed that there was a political motive. Unless if the Committee wants anything specific to be traversed ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say about whether he qualifies in terms of the subsections which are under Section 20(2)?

MR MOTEPE: Subsection 3.

CHAIRPERSON: To would subsection would you say your applicant, your client, qualifies under?

MR MOTEPE: Well in fact ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Subsection 2(a), (b), (c), (d)?

MR MOTEPE: Well I would submit that he qualifies under subsection 3(a - f).

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a copy of your Act?

MR MOTEPE: Yes, I've made a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have recourse to Section 20(2)?

MR MOTEPE: Subsection 2.

CHAIRPERSON: And the sub-subsections under 2, there's (a), (b), (c), (d) and so forth. To which section would you say Mr Makoe would fall under?

MR MOTEPE: Well (a) is in tandem with his evidence, he does fall under that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but he doesn't say he was a member only. Wasn't he under a duty to execute instructions and therefore would fall ...(indistinct) aptly under (d)?

MR MOTEPE: Well I was going one by one. I had only started with (a), I was still coming to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry to have interfered with your address whilst you were busy going through those subsections.

MR MOTEPE: As it pleases you.

Indeed Madam Chair is correct, he does fall under 9(d) as well. The other ones refer to employees of the State and are not relevant to this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything further that you would want to address us on, in terms of Section 3?

MR MOTEPE: I was indicating that under Section 3 in fact he qualifies under numerous of them.

CHAIRPERSON: In particular which one which has a direct bearing?

MR MOTEPE: (b). We must remember that there were tensions at that time, the uprisings as one may refer to them, so (b) will be an issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MOTEPE: (d) as well. Primarily directed at the political opponent, that will fit. And I believe (e) as well, because it ties in the question of a command, that he was following an order. I think that is all that I wish to traverse at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have anything that you wish to address us on?

MS THABETE: No, Madam Chair, and I have no objection to amnesty being granted.

NO ADDRESS BY MS THABETE

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Having concluded the evidence in this application of Mr Makoe, this Committee will be in a position to pronounce its decision tomorrow morning at 09H30. There is no need for Mr Makoe to be present when we do so. However, I think mr Motepe should be around when we pronounce our decision in order to convey our decision to Mr Makoe without delay.

It is also our duty to communicate to Mr Makoe the decision of this Committee and to advise our office in Cape Town. We however would prefer that Mr Motepe who has been representing the interest of Mr Makoe, be also charged with that responsibility of communicating our decision directly to Mr Makoe.

Will that be convenient for you to do, Mr Motepe?

MR MOTEPE: I will try my utmost best, but the applicant is in Diepkloof Prison and I'm from Pretoria. I'm not sure if prison authorities can also be asked to be here so that they can convey the orders of this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying you will not be in a position to be here tomorrow at 09H30?

MR MOTEPE: No, I will here at 09H30, I was talking about conveying the orders of this court to the applicant. But as I have already said, I will try my utmost best. I was just adding that maybe the prison authorities should also be informed so that they can easily inform him.

CHAIRPERSON: We charge you, as Mr Makoe's lawyer, with that responsibility and we wouldn't charge prison authorities with any duty. You are representing Mr Makoe's interest and we'd expect you to convey that decision to him and nobody else.

MR MOTEPE: I'll oblige.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, what is the next application to be heard today?

MS THABETE: The next application, Madam Chair, will be the applications of John Radebe and Fanie Mkhwanazi, to be heard together I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Are they all here?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair, they are.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that application opposed?

MS THABETE: Not to my knowledge, Madam Chair. I had met with the victims, next of kin, on Monday and they said they would be here. Some implicated persons have called me and I just need to prepare their names for the record. They didn't indicate any intention to oppose.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you met with the victims, did they indicate any intention whether they wanted to oppose or they did not want to oppose the application?

MS THABETE: They did not, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they specifically indicate to you that it was not their intention to oppose the application?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll take a tea adjournment and we will resume at quarter past eleven, thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) Panel, Mr Makoe.

F I N D I N G

This Committee is now ready to announce its decision in respect of the application brought by Levy Ramonana Makoe this morning.

Mr Makoe applies for amnesty in respect of the murder of Annah Mingi Feni, committed on the 22nd of September 1992 at Sebokeng, as well as the unlawful possession of a CZ88 firearm and ammunition in contravention of Section 2 and 36 of Act 75 of 1969.

After having heard the testimony of Mr Makoe and the supplementary affidavit handed in on his behalf, we are satisfied that he acted in accordance with an order issued by his unit commander, one called Ace Chanyela, that the deceased should be eliminated.

The Committee is further satisfied that the act took place within the context of the ongoing political violence between supporters of the ANC and those of the IFP during the period concerned in the Vaal Triangle, which violence was accepted as being common cause.

Accordingly the applicant complies with Section 20(1) of the Act and amnesty IS GRANTED for the acts referred to above.

The Committee is of the opinion that the relatives of the deceased, Annah Mingi Feni, are victims as defined in the Act and are accordingly referred to the Committee on Reparation and Rehabilitation for consideration as such in terms of Section 26 of the Act. That is our decision, thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: AM 7190/97

CHAIRPERSON: We are supposed to proceed to hear the applications of Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Radebe. We have been advised in chambers that there is still a need for a further consultation by the legal representatives of both applicants, and that our Evidence Leader was still in the process of further consulting with a number of implicated persons in respect of those two applications. We will therefore adjourn until 2 o'clock to enable all parties to consult properly, whereafter we shall resume our proceedings, thank you very much.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, are we ready to commence with the application of, which applicant?

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR LAX EXPLAINS MICROPHONES

MR LAX: Just repeat what you said please.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, I am in a position to commence with the application of Abraham Fanie Mkhwanazi.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the one to be found on page 176 of the bundle of documents before us?

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you also representing Mr Radebe who is a co-applicant?

MS MOLOISANE: I do, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: The application that will be commenced with now - there is some terrible interference with our headphones, if that could be attended to, thank you.

The application that we'll commence with is that of Mr Mkhwanazi, to be found on page 176. Ms Thabete? Ms Thabete, are we in a position to proceed with this application?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair, we are.

CHAIRPERSON: Have we served the relevant notices that we have to serve in terms of the Act?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair, we have served.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give an indication as to the kind of notice served and upon whom that notice was served?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair. Both Section 19(4) notices and announcements on the radio, and a newspaper announcement, publication was made. I have received phone calls from a lot of, from all the victims next of kin, except Maletsatse Mahomo's next of kin because she doesn't have any anymore.

I've received phone calls from interested persons and implicated persons. I don't know whether Madam Chair would like me to read everybody's names who's actually been notified.

CHAIRPERSON: With regard to the implicated persons, will you just indicate for the record who are those implicated persons who were issued with 19(4) notices and whether these persons are present or they have given an indication to want legal representation in respect of their implications, because I note that some of them have been substantively implicated.

MS THABETE: Madam Chair

Majeka Phillip was served, and he is here present today.

Comrade Colonel Paulos Malokwane is present today -he was served as well.

Godfrey Shia is present today as well - he was served.

Oupa Keswa is present today - he was served.

Bonga Khumalo is present here - he was served.

Fanie Abraham Mkhwanazi is - oh, he's the applicant.

Sipho Tshabalala was served - he's here today.

Bowman Njolo who was the co-accused in Court was served, and he is here today.

I understand Madam Chair, that Stanley was served and he was aware that he had to come today as well.

CHAIRPERSON: What's his surname?

MS THABETE: I don't know his surname, Madam Chair. He's referred to in the affidavit as Stanley, the person who gave orders. It's in paragraph 13 of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MS THABETE: ... Mr Radebe's application, page 149 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying he was served with the Section 19(4) notice?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of service was it, was it personal service?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that effected?

MS THABETE: I would have to check that date, Madam Chair, just bear with me. Madam Chair, it would seem that this was done on the 4th of February, because that is when our Investigator, George, went to the area to serve all the notices, 4th of February 1999.

CHAIRPERSON: Are all people present here whom you've referred to as implicated served with notices on the 4th of February?

MS THABETE: Madam Chair, they're not all present today, but most of them are present.

CHAIRPERSON: The ones that you've already referred to?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair, they are present.

CHAIRPERSON: They were served on the 4th?

MS THABETE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And they have no objection to the short notice?

MS THABETE: No, Madam Chair, they didn't indicate any objection to me.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MS THABETE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you were still proceeding with the list of implicated persons?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair. Mr Lekgoka, he's not really implicated but he's an interested person. He telephoned me and he said he would come, but he is not here.

I think that completes my list, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: That being the case I think this matter is ripe to be heard. Will you kindly place yourself on record?

MS MOLOISANE: I am Advocate Lesego Moloisane from the Pretoria Bar, I represent the applicant, Fanie Abraham Mkhwanazi. I also represent the applicant, John Radebe, who was Fanie Mkhwanazi's co-accused in the High Court.

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of which matter?

MS MOLOISANE: In respect of the incident relating to the murder of Hapile Ndumo, the assault of Elsie Mokoena and the illegal position of arms and ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: I am Ms Thabete. I'm the Evidence Leader, TRC. I'm also representing the interests of the victims next of kin in this matter and also the victim, Ms Elsie Mokoena.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Moloisane?

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, I have submitted an affidavit, a comprehensive supplementary affidavit by the applicant, Fanie Abraham Mkhwanazi.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we give that a number? Will that be Annexure B?

MS MOLOISANE: This is a comprehensive affidavit as I have already said, and it supplements what the applicant had already stated in his founding affidavit to the Truth and Reconciliation Committee.

The said affidavit is also confirmed by a confirmatory affidavit made and undersigned by John Radebe, whose application I will deal with later on.

Madam Chair and Committee Members, I just wish to state that apart from what has been stated in the affidavit I would like to lead some more oral evidence regarding the incident itself. I also wish to state on record that the applicant fully understands English, he's conversant in English, but he will be at ease or comfortable to reply in Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: That's his right, we'll afford him so. We have interpreters who will interpret to him what you will be putting to him in English and we'll allow him to respond in Sesotho, and that will then be translated for purposes of our record which is in English into English.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fanie Abraham Mkhwanazi, are you prepared to take an oath?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What language do you speak?

MR MKHWANAZI: Sesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may sit down, you have been duly sworn in.

You may proceed, Ms Moloisane.

EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE: Mr Mkhwanazi, we have presented this Honourable Committee with a supplementary affidavit. Is there still anything that you would like to add in addition thereto?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moloisane, shouldn't Mr Mkhwanazi first confirm the correctness of the contents of the affidavit?

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you, Madam Chair.

Mr Mkhwanazi, do you confirm the contents of the affidavit that we have presented to this Honourable Committee?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, I confirm.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you still adhere to those contents?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: Now is there still something that you would like to add concerning the event of the 15th of August 1993 when Hapile Ndumo was allegedly murdered?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, there is something I would like to add.

MS MOLOISANE: Please say that, what is it that you want to add?

MR MKHWANAZI: I wanted to add that when we were coming from Zone 12 with John Radebe she provided an information that on the day the Boipatong Massacre they took part. I heard this from Samuel Neti and I wanted to confirm it and ask it from the person who said it. I asked from her and she confirmed it.

She confirmed that on the day of the Boipatong Massacre herself and the other girls who were in her company were knocking at the doors and when the people inside the house heard that it was the voices of the females they would open the door, and on opening the door the men would get into the house and shoot. That's what I wanted to add.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you try and give your evidence in such a way that we are able to record it, as we have to write it down and we can't keep up with the pace at which you are giving your evidence. So try and slow you place. Also the translators are translating what you are saying in Sesotho into English and we don't want them to miss anything that you are saying in Sesotho, do you understand?

MR MKHWANAZI: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS MOLOISANE: Now how long before the 15th of August '93, that is the day on which the incidents that led to this application took place, how long before that day was the Boipatong Massacre? Do you still recall?

MR MKHWANAZI: I think it happened in 1992, June.

MS MOLOISANE: Now is there still anything that you would like to add?

MR MKHWANAZI: Nothing.

MS MOLOISANE: And in your affidavit you mentioned that you were a member of the ANC Youth League and at the same time you were also a member of the Self Defence Unit, in whose cell were you? Who was your immediate commander, in whose cell were you?

MR MKHWANAZI: Bonga Khumalo.

MS MOLOISANE: Did you have any membership document with you, or did the said Bonga Khumalo issue you with any membership documents?

MR MKHWANAZI: I took a membership from the branch in Zone 12, Sebokeng, I did not obtain it from Bonga. At that time he was at Zone 12 and I obtained the membership from the branch office which was in Zone 14.

MS MOLOISANE: Tell this Committee why did you take part in the killing of Hapile Ndumo and the assault on Elsie Mokoena.

CHAIRPERSON: Before he starts that, can he give an indication as to when he became a member of the ANC Youth League? That is not stated in his application form.

MR MKHWANAZI: It was in 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was it a mistake or an oversight, because I made to understand by your counsel that you understand English fairly well, that in your application form on page 176, paragraph 7(b), when you were asked to state in what capacity you served the organisation or liberation movement concerned, you said criminal and Self Defence Unit?

MR MKHWANAZI: This was a mistake from my side. I wanted to write here that I was a member of the Self Defence Unit fighting the criminals that were in the township. It so happened that I did not write it properly.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did you become a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MKHWANAZI: It was in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: And was it the same unit that you say was being commanded by Bonga Khumalo?

MR MKHWANAZI: Can you repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a member of a unit that you have led evidence as having been commanded by Bonga Khumalo?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When you refer to it as a cell, you are actually referring to your particular unit?

MR MKHWANAZI: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: In your evidence you say you were in the cell that was commanded by Bonga Khumalo, when in your evidence you refer to the word "cell", are you referring to your unit, your Self Defence Unit?

MR MKHWANAZI: ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's what I want to know.

MR MKHWANAZI: I really don't understand you. I'm talking of the Self Defence Unit. I don't quite understand you when you start talking of cells. Maybe you can put your question in a different way so that I can understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Your counsel asked you in whose cell did you belong, do you remember being asked that question by your counsel?

MR MKHWANAZI: ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MKHWANAZI: Can she repeat the question so that I can understand it clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you recall having been asked that question, yes or no?

MR MKHWANAZI: I remember she asked me a question.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you recall her asking you in whose cell did you belong?

MR MKHWANAZI: I remember her asking me about a unit, not a cell.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think she used the word "cell" and not "unit".

MR MKHWANAZI: Can you enquire from her, Chairperson, which word did she use?

CHAIRPERSON: I am telling you she used the word "cell". There is nothing wrong, we just want to clarify issues before you even go further in your evidence, so that we are not sitting with unnecessary contradictions. There is nothing that wrong, I just need clarity whether when you responded to that question which related to the word "cell", you actually misunderstood it, in fact you would have responded to the question if it was phrased with a reference to the word "unit" and not "cell".

MR MKHWANAZI: I did not understand the word.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you say Bonga Khumalo was in command, was he commanding your unit?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is your Self Defence Unit?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, may I just state that maybe the use of the word "cell", I said in your cell or command, may be condoned if ever it creates some problems.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it's been clarified, we just didn't want the record to stand uncorrected lest it be misconstrued as a contradiction on your client's part.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you, Madam Chair.

Now how did you feel after you established the role that Hapile and others played during the Boipatong Massacre?

MR MKHWANAZI: I was worried when I heard such a thing because it took place within an organisation that I belonged to. Those people who were killed there belonged to my organisation, now this disturbed me a lot.

MS MOLOISANE: So you say you had this perception, or you believed, or you were under the impression that they had sold you out in other words, sold the people of Boipatong out?

CHAIRPERSON: Where is that evidence, Ms Moloisane?

MS MOLOISANE: Or let me put it this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We haven't established that evidence.

MS MOLOISANE: Or let me put it this way ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Lay a question that is going to give you a basis on which you can then proceed to have him give you his impression.

MS MOLOISANE: You say you went to investigate whether that was true, the Boipatong incident was true, as far as it related to Hapile Ndumo?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: What kind of investigation did you carry out?

MR MKHWANAZI: I went to her and I asked her where they were during Boipatong Massacre, and she told me that they were part and parcel of that incident. She told me that they took part in Boipatong Massacre. That was my investigation, and she explained it that way to me.

MS MOLOISANE: Did she tell you what role did she play, specific role did she play?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moloisane, I don't want to interfere with your evidence-in-chief and the way you are leading your witness, but I thought that evidence has already been established and that the role that she had said she had played was in knocking on the doors of the residents around the place who would open when hearing that the people who were, I think shouting outside, wanting to be opened up for, were female. I thought that was already established.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What I would however want to ask Mr Mkhwanazi is, when did Ms Ndumo, when did she tell you that she had participated in the Boipatong Massacre in relation to ...(intervention)

MR MKHWANAZI: Can I please get a new set of hearing aids, I do not hear clearly with these ones.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you comfortable now with the headphones?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When did Hapile Ndumo tell you about her role during the Boipatong Massacre?

MR MKHWANAZI: She told me on the day of her death.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. And that would be the 15th of August 1993?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what had prompted her to tell you about her participation?

MR MKHWANAZI: I asked her because I had received information from Samuel Neti, and I wanted to be sure as to whether she said it.

CHAIRPERSON: And when had you received that kind of information that connected her to the Boipatong Massacre?

MR MKHWANAZI: Myself and John Radebe were on our way from Zone 12, that's when he told me that.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that on the 15th of August 1993?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed, Ma'am.

MS MOLOISANE: You make mention of this Zone 12 in your affidavit, what was happening at this Zone 12 that made you to go up and down this Zone 12?

MR MKHWANAZI: We went to Zone 12 because we did not have bullets, the firearms that we had ran short of bullets. That's when we went to Zone 12 to look for bullets.

MS MOLOISANE: Now why was Hapile Ndumo killed on that day and why was Elsie Mokoena assaulted or shot at as well?

MR MKHWANAZI: They were killed because they were members of Inkatha and we heard of what they were doing, taking information from the community to where they were staying. Now this was not comfortable to us.

MR LAX: Just repeat the last part of your answer, I didn't catch it all. As the Chairperson asked you previously, you need to go a little bit slowly otherwise we can't get everything down. It will help us a great deal if you just speak a little bit more slowly, please. You said that they were - the translation was "they were killed because they were members of the IFP, taking information", and then I couldn't keep up with the rest, so just repeat.

MR MKHWANAZI: They took the information to the party they belonged to.

MR LAX: What information?

MR MKHWANAZI: There were people who were targeted by Inkatha, the people of the township. They are the ones who took the targeted people's names to the IFP, as to where they stay and what their names are.

MR LAX: And where did they take it to, IFP where, or what? Where was this that they were taking this information to?

MR MKHWANAZI: They took it to Madala Hostel. This was a hostel occupied by Inkatha at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a serious interference with our headphones.

MR LAX: Please carry on, sorry.

MS MOLOISANE: Is that all that you wanted to add to your affidavit, to what you have already stated in your affidavit?

MR MKHWANAZI: Even at the affidavit some of the issues I did not add and I wanted to orally present them before this Committee.

MS MOLOISANE: Is there still something ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: May I just come in here if you don't mind, Ms Moloisane, before you continue I just want clarity on one matter please.

You said that you got the information from Neti, what's happened to him, do you know at all, where is he?

MR MKHWANAZI: He is in prison, Groenpunt Prison.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know whether he's applied for amnesty?

MR MKHWANAZI: I do not know.

ADV BOSMAN: Have you spoken to him recently, were you in the same prison at all?

MR MKHWANAZI: After the sentence we separated.

ADV BOSMAN: You haven't seen him since?

MR MKHWANAZI: I haven't seen him since.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MS MOLOISANE: Is there still something that you still want to add?

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of what, which part of the ...(intervention)?

MS MOLOISANE: In respect to the incident that led to the death of Hapile Ndumo.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you even go any further, are you happy having regard to the documents before us, of the reasons or one reason at least, advanced by Mr Mkhwanazi of why Ms Hapile Ndumo was killed? Are you happy with that response, having regard to all the documents before us, in particular the supplementary affidavit? Are you happy with his response? Your question was, why was Hapile Ndumo killed and the evidence before us, at least in viva voce, is that she was killed because she and others took information, sensitive information to the parties that they belonged to, are you happy with that response?

MS MOLOISANE: I am happy, Madam Chair, because this is just in addition to what is stated. The reasons were already stated in the supplementary affidavit, but that was in addition thereto.

CHAIRPERSON: I have not understood your question to exclude the reason stated in the affidavit, that's not how I understood your question. I thought you really wanted him to explain why Ms Ndumo was killed, which explanation would include the reasons given in the supplementary affidavit.

MS MOLOISANE: Paragraph 3.5 and 3.6.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I was actually looking at paragraph 4.13. However, if you feel that it's something that can be argued further, you may leave it.

MS MOLOISANE: Paragraph 4.?

CHAIRPERSON: 13 of his supplementary affidavit.

MS MOLOISANE: I have 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3.

CHAIRPERSON: 4.13.

MS MOLOISANE: Oh, 4.13?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Besides that these crimes were committed in concert with John Radebe?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, Ma'am, just have recourse to 4.13 and the question that you put to Mr Mkhwanazi: "Why was Hapile Ndumo killed?" I do not understand your question to confine the witness only to what is not included in the supplementary affidavit, that is not how I understand your question. I understand your question to elicit fuller information, his understanding as to why there was a need to have Ms Ndumo killed. Now in terms of 4.13, another reason has been advanced.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, shall you read ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The reason advanced under 4.13 is that he was acting on the orders of Mr Radebe, is it not so?

MS MOLOISANE: Oh, in that context I understand. Shall I put it to him?

CHAIRPERSON: Well we would be happy to understand how that should be understood in relation to his viva voce evidence now, that the reason why they killed her was because they already knew that they were spying for the IFP, and organisation to which they are alleged to have belonged.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases, Madam Chair.

Now in paragraph 4.13 of your supplementary affidavit you stated that, I read:

"I must state that these offences or crimes were committed in concert, and that John Radebe was my senior and ...(indistinct) gave us orders on that day."

Would you clarify that?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, I can clarify.

MS MOLOISANE: Proceed.

MR MKHWANAZI: We were not in the same position within the unit, he was my senior. If the commander was not present and there were orders that were to be taken out, he would do that. I took some of the orders from him. That is why on the 15th he was in a position to issue out an order.

MS MOLOISANE: What was the order that he gave you?

MR MKHWANAZI: That these people must be taken to Zone 12 and be questioned about their work and the decision as to what will happen to them.

MS MOLOISANE: Where in particular in Zone 12 were you to take these people to?

MR MKHWANAZI: We were going to take them to the sub-branch of the ANC Youth League. We were going to take them there so that they be questioned.

MS MOLOISANE: And what did you do?

MR MKHWANAZI: We did not manage to take them with because Elsie Mokoena did not agree with what John Radebe told her, which is we should go to Zone 12. It happened then that the decision was taken there and then that these people be killed.

MS MOLOISANE: Is there still something that you would like to add?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Ms Moloisane.

Are you saying that the order that was issued by Mr Radebe that day, was only that the ladies must be taken to Zone 12 for questioning?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And he didn't issue an order that they should be killed after questioning?

MR MKHWANAZI: The issue of killing came after Elsie refused to agree with what John Radebe was telling her. Elsie was very adamant, John pulled out the gun and shot her. The decision was taken then, there and then that they be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Who took the decision to kill them?

MR MKHWANAZI: John Radebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it an order or an decision or you don't draw any distinction between the two?

MR MKHWANAZI: I would not say it was a decision, it was an order from him that these people be killed. He was my senior and it so happened that on that day he issued that order of killing these people.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Moloisane, I just needed to clarify that issue.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just come in before you continue, thank you.

Mr Mkhwanazi, how old were you at the time?

MR MKHWANAZI: I was 15.

ADV BOSMAN: Now John Radebe was more or less the same age, is it not so?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, more or less the same. He was a year older than me.

ADV BOSMAN: And how was your seniority established in the unit?

MR MKHWANAZI: A person's performance would be checked. When a person was given instructions and performed them with immediate effect, such people were in a position to be put on top of others.

ADV BOSMAN: And who made him the commander that day, who appointed him as a commander that day? Or was it a sort of - did it follow by itself that he was your senior and therefore in command?

MR MKHWANAZI: No, it not just happen, he was elected by our seniors so that he becomes a commander, a so-called 2IC.

ADV BOSMAN: Was he second in command in the unit?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Ma'am.

MS MOLOISANE: I have nothing more to add, Madam Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mkhwanazi?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed to do so.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Thank you.

Mr Mkhwanazi, when you called the victims, Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena outside the tavern, why were you calling them, or why did you call them?

MR MKHWANAZI: They were not called by me.

MS THABETE: But you were present when they were called, isn't it?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, I was.

MS THABETE: So according to your knowledge, why were they called outside?

MR MKHWANAZI: They were called because they were disappearing in the township and we wanted to take them to Zone 12 to the offices of the ANC Youth League to be questioned, and the decision would be taken there as to what should happen to them.

MS THABETE: Is it correct that when you called them it was on a Sunday?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, it was on a Sunday.

MS THABETE: Were the offices open also on Sundays, the ANC offices?

MR MKHWANAZI: They were open at all times.

MS THABETE: So would I be correct to say when you called them out of the tavern your intention was to go and question them at the ANC offices? Would I be correct to say that?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Did you know Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena very well would you say?

MR MKHWANAZI: Very well.

MS THABETE: Where did they live?

MR MKHWANAZI: We lived in one area, that is Zone 12.

MS THABETE: Is it correct that in your evidence earlier on you implied or you stated that they lived in the Madala Hostel at some stage?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS THABETE: When was this?

MR MKHWANAZI: It was in those years, during 1991, '92, '93.

MS THABETE: Mr Mkhwanazi, it's my instructions that Ms Hapile Ndumo and Ms Elsie Mokoena never lived at the Madala Hostel, they've always lived in the same area as you, what is your comment to that?

MR MKHWANAZI: They are just defending themselves. Hapile Ndumo lived in the same street as myself, the 5th house from my home. Each time I get out of my home I would be in a position to see her home and she was not present in the township, I'm sure of that.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Ms Thabete?

What are you saying, are you saying that because there was a stage when she was not around the township you simply assumed that she stays at Kwamadala Hostel, or you know for a fact there was a time when she stayed at Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MKHWANAZI: I know there was a time where she stayed at Kwamadala.

CHAIRPERSON: And how did that information get to be known by you?

MR MKHWANAZI: There were underground comrades, they were able to meet and go to town and seek information regarding these people. When one member of the IFP was captured he would be asked as to who else is in their place of living.

To add a little on that, these girls were once captured in the township and they were going to be assaulted, being warned that they should leave this. They decided that they were not going to be dictated to by the people of the township and they went back. That was after they were given a few lashes of warning.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when were they captured?

MR MKHWANAZI: If I am not mistaken it could have been 1991 or 1992, I am not clear.

CHAIRPERSON: And by whom were they captured?

MR MKHWANAZI: There was a certain comrade called Skhosana in the township, he is the one who went with them to the ANC offices to be given lashes.

CHAIRPERSON: What role did comrade Skhosana have within the SDU structures?

MR MKHWANAZI: He took part within the SDU but he had his own separate unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a member of the SDU?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabete, you may proceed.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Thabete, may I just get some clarification here?

You say that Mr Skhosana had his own separate unit, who was the commander of that unit?

MR MKHWANAZI: I would not say who the commander was, I did not know who the commander was in their group.

ADV BOSMAN: Was there more than one unit in the same area?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Why I'm asking you this question, in your supplementary affidavit you say that

"By virtue of being comrades we became members of the SDU"

So did you regard yourselves as automatically part of an SDU?

MR MKHWANAZI: No, I was recruited to be a member of the SDU.

ADV BOSMAN: By whom were you recruited?

MR MKHWANAZI: Godfrey Shia.

ADV BOSMAN: And then on page 179 of the papers in your application form, paragraph 3 there, your paragraph 3 numbered number 3, you say

"We were regarded as Self Defence Units."

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Now did you fill this out yourself, in your own handwriting?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: You counsel says you're well-versed in English, why did you say you were regarded as Self Defence Units?

MR MKHWANAZI: The community regarded us as their Self Defence Unit.

ADV BOSMAN: Didn't they know you as a Self Defence Unit because you were properly formed and established?

MR MKHWANAZI: They knew us to be their Self Defence Units. Maybe the use of words was improper here.

ADV BOSMAN: And what was Godfrey Shia's position, was he just a member?

MR MKHWANAZI: He was a member of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a five minutes adjournment.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: ... put questions to Mr Mkhwanazi. Mr Mkhwanazi, you are reminded that you are still under your former oath.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed, Ms Thabete.

ADV BOSMAN: I have finished, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: (Continued) Mr Mkhwanazi it's also my instructions that - maybe I should put it this way, what was your relations between you and Hapile Ndumo, Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena, were you in good relations?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, we were in good relations. That is during their stay in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you meant when you say during their stay in the township. When she was killed, was she no longer staying in the township?

MR MKHWANAZI: No, she was not seen in the township, I did not see her in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: When last had you seen her in the township?

MR MKHWANAZI: I do not remember, but it was in those weeks when they were given lashes of warning.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you will recall that you said they were given such lashes between 1991 and 1992, that was your earlier evidence, are you saying you had not seen them since 1991?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, I'm saying, in those few weeks they might have stayed for two months and afterwards I never saw them again and I met her again on the day when we met them at the tavern.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETE: Before they were given lashes by Mr Skhosana, were they questioned about anything, according to your knowledge?

MR MKHWANAZI: They were taken with, but when they got into the ANC offices I was not present, I was not inside, I was outside. I did not take any part on that day when they were questioned, I was not even there.

MS THABETE: So you wouldn't even know whether they were questioned or not, is that correct?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Is it maybe the reason why you decided to call them that day to go and question them again, from the tavern because you were not there when they were questioned by Skhosana?

MR MKHWANAZI: When we found them at the tavern the intention was to take them and ask them questions about some of the people who lived in the township and one of them refused, she was adamant, and it so happened that she was shot at.

MS THABETE: What questions did you - what did you want to find out from them basically?

MR MKHWANAZI: The questions relating to Boipatong Massacre and other massacres that took place in the township, as well as other people who were killed by the IFP. We wanted to know who was responsible behind these things.

MS THABETE: I see. Mr Mkhwanazi, it's also my instructions that Ms Hapile Ndumo and Ms Elsie Mokoena were not IFP members at all, what is your comment on that?

MR MKHWANAZI: I am against that, I am sure they were members of the IFP and the community within the area knew it, they knew that they were members of the IFP.

MS THABETE: Do you know Mr Johannes Mnsime?

MR MKHWANAZI: Pardon?

MS THABETE: Do you know Mr Johannes Mnsime?

MR MKHWANAZI: I think I know him. I don't know, but I think I've heard of the name.

MS THABETE: You've heard of the name. Maybe just to refresh your memory, he was a policeman in De Deur. Do you know him?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

MS THABETE: Because it's also my instructions that you actually targeted Ms Mokoena and Ms Hapile because Ms Mokoena had a relationship with the policeman, Mr Johannes Mnsime. What is your comment on that?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is not the reason why we targeted her, I did not know the affair with the policeman. The thing that led us to killing them is the one I've already indicated to you.

MS THABETE: In your evidence you stated that you heard from Hapile Ndumo that she was involved in the Boipatong Massacre, is that correct?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MS THABETE: And she told you on the 14th of August when she was shot?

CHAIRPERSON: On the 15th, Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: The 15th of August when she was shot. Thank you, Madam Chair, I'm indebted to you.

MR MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MS THABETE: So would you say in fact that according to your knowledge, she was involved in the Boipatong Massacre, would you say that's one of the reasons why you had killed her, or she was shot by you?

MR MKHWANAZI: It is one of the reasons that she ended up dead.

MS THABETE: What did you say the other reasons being?

MR MKHWANAZI: I think I explained earlier on that they took information from the township and took it to where they stayed, to the party they belonged to. In other words, they were spying on the people in the township.

MS THABETE: That's another reason you're saying?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Is it also another reason, the fact that in paragraph 9 you say there were said to be IFP members, would you say that's another reason why you killed them?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Mr Mkhwanazi, my last question. Do you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: May I request, Ms Thabete with your indulgence, to interpose before I lose this point.

You say the other reason that Ms Ndumo was killed and Ms Mokoena assaulted severely is because they took information from the township to their organisation, being the IFP?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know about that?

MR MKHWANAZI: I think I mentioned earlier on that when a member of the IFP was captured in the township - I think I did explain that when a member of the IFP was captured in the township, before that member was killed he or she would be questioned and they would conceal who the members of the IFP were there, those who resided in the township.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Translator, you said "they would conceal", did you mean reveal?

INTERPRETER: Excuse the Interpreter, Chairperson, yes, we wanted to say "reveal".

MR LAX: Okay. Continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it that how you came to know that Ms Ndumo and Mokoena were spying for the IFP?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You got information from people who knew they were being questioned only to be eliminated immediately thereafter? You relied on the information obtained from such persons?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever present when an IFP person was questioned and revealed the names of Ms Mokoena and Ndumo?

MR MKHWANAZI: When some of the comrades have captured a person and questioned that person, they would report to other comrades as to what transpired out of the questioning so that all of us would know what the responses were, but I had never questioned anyone.

CHAIRPERSON: And can you approximate to this Committee, approximately when did this kind of information come to your attention, that the ladies in question were spying for the IFP? Do you want me to repeat my question?

MR MKHWANAZI: No, I will respond. I can briefly say there is a certain boy who used to be in my company when we were in the township. He was a member of the IFP and his names was Skhalo. They lived in a shack at a place called Eating Site.

Now it looks like they were recruited. Now Skhalo frequented the township, that was before this conflict. He even showed us the membership card of the IFP and he wanted us to join this party.

We knew through Skhalo that these girls were members of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: My question wanted to elicit the time period within which the information came to your attention that the ladies in question were spying for the IFP. I did not want to know who gave you the information, I just wanted to know the time period during which you became aware that Ms Mokoena and Ndumo were spying for the IFP.

MR MKHWANAZI: It was around 1990 or 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: And you have already testified that in 1990 you were not a member of the ANC Youth League, is it not so?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is correct, but I have a suggestion to that effect. I was a supporter, I was not a card-carrying member of the ANC, I was just a supporter. Because when I went apply for a card they told me that I was still under age, they said I should rather wait for a year before obtaining a card.

CHAIRPERSON: When you received this information, either in 1990 or 1991, what did you do with it, did you bring it to the attention of your branch?

MR MKHWANAZI: It was known in the township that these people were members of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the attitude of the township residents about these persons being IFP spies, to your knowledge?

MR MKHWANAZI: People were not yet killed in the township when this transpired, now they were still roaming around the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabete, for your indulgence, you may proceed.

MS THABETE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr Mkhwanazi, according to Mr Radebe's affidavit, you and him at some stage went to Stanley during the incident which led to the killing of Hapile Ndumo and injury of Elsie Mokoena, you went to a Stanley, is that correct?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MS THABETE: Why did you go there?

MR MKHWANAZI: When we left Zone 12 extension we ran short of ammunition, our firearms were empty. We went to Zone 12 looking for ammunition. It happened that we met with comrade Stanley at Hollywood Nightclub and we requested ammunition from him and he told us that he did not have and immediately we told him as to what was happening. He then said to us we should see to it that we finish with these people and leave no trace because should there be any trace we would find ourselves in danger.

MS THABETE: So are you saying that you met Mr Stanley by coincidence, not that you had gone there to look for him?

MR LAX: Sorry, Ms Thabete, he made it very clear that he went there to get ammunition and while doing that they told him about what was happening, that's his evidence. And then he said what they said he said.

MS THABETE: Oh, I thought he had said that they had gone to look for ammunition and then they met Stanley and decided to ask ammunition from him. Maybe he can clarify that.

MR LAX: Please go ahead.

MS THABETE: Would you like to clarify whether you left to look for Stanley or you met him on the way when you were going to look for the bullets?

MR MKHWANAZI: On our way to Zone 12 it was our intention to go to him to ask for bullets. We wanted Stanley and Mabusa. I happened that we only found him because he was working at Hollywood Nightclub.

He was the leader of the ANC Youth League, Zone 12 at that time.

MS THABETE: So it wasn't to get them to come with you, it was just to ask for the bullets, is that what you are saying?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, and report what happened.

MR LAX: Sorry, if I may just come in here.

So in fact you went to Stanley for two reasons, you went to get ammunition and you went to report to him about what was happening, is that correct, do I understand you correctly?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS THABETE: When you had reported to Stanley about what was happening, did he say anything to you in response?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS THABETE: What did he say?

MR MKHWANAZI: I think I briefly explained that Stanley ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just answer the question. You keep saying you briefly explained. Every time you say that we end of wasting time. Just answer the question, okay, you'll save us all a lot of time. We wouldn't ask you the question if it wasn't unclear.

MR MKHWANAZI: He said we should make sure that these people are dead and there would be no evidence because should it be discovered that we were the people responsible for their death we would be in danger.

MS THABETE: Mr Mkhwanazi, I would like to just go back a little bit, I omitted to ask you this, why was it necessary for you to go and do a report to Mr Stanley about what was happening?

MR MKHWANAZI: We did not want to do thing haphazardly, we wanted it to be known so that should it surface that we were responsible, it should be known as to why we did it. That is why we reported to him. We reported to him because he was the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League.

MS THABETE: If he had said that you shouldn't do anything to them, would you have done so, would you have followed his instructions?

CHAIRPERSON: Come again, Ms Thabete, I didn't get your question.

MS THABETE: If he had said to you, don't do anything to them, would you have done exactly that and followed his instructions?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

MS THABETE: So you didn't really need his approval, is that what you are saying?

MR MKHWANAZI: We were just reporting, we did not want his response. We did not want his suggestion as to continue with the act or not.

MS THABETE: My last question is, you say - I asked this earlier on but I didn't make a follow-up, you had said that you heard from Hapile Ndumo before you shot her, that she had participated in the Boipatong Massacre which was on the 17th of June 1992, are you aware that during this period, or rather, are you aware that on the 17th of June Ms Hapile Ndumo was actually arrested?

MR MKHWANAZI: No, I do not know that.

MS THABETE: Well according to my instructions she was in jail, she was in prison at that time, so she couldn't have participated in the Boipatong Massacre.

MR MKHWANAZI: Did she tell you that?

MS THABETE: Those are my instructions from ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: How can you say that, you know she is dead. How can she be told by a person who is dead.

MR MKHWANAZI: I understood her to say she was told or she told her that she was in prison at that time, now maybe I did not understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: She is representing the interest of Ms Ndumo's relatives and she has been instructed that around June 1992, Ms Ndumo was in jail. Do you or do you not know that?

MR MKHWANAZI: I do not know that.

MS THABETE: Thank you, Madam Chair, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabete. Before we put questions as members of the Committee, do you have any re-examination, Mr Moloisane?

MS MOLOISANE: I have nothing in re-examination, Madam Chair.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR LAX: That's Chairperson.

You gave us the impression when you were testifying in chief that you knew the deceased's coming and goings pretty well, you lived a few doors away from her and you used to watch her place regularly and you never saw her around, is that correct?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Yes, you're unable to tell us that she might have been in jail in June 1992. Did you really watch her so well that you can say you knew everything about where she was and where she wasn't?

MR MKHWANAZI: I was not actually following her, but what I meant was when I got out of my home it was possible to see

her home and she was not at home always.

MR LAX: Yes, well people can be not at home for a whole rang of reasons, which is another issue I'm coming to. They can be not at home because they've gone to visit relatives in another place, does that mean they are living at Kwamadala Hostel if that's the case, just because they're not at home?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

MR LAX: Well you said you never saw them around the township and therefore you assumed they were spying for the IFP, that was your evidence. Is that not correct?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: But what I'm saying to you is there are any number of reasons why they may not have been at home that would have nothing to do with the IFP, isn't that correct?

MR MKHWANAZI: According to my knowledge and according to what I heard she was at the camps of the IFP.

MR LAX: Which other camps was she at?

MR MKHWANAZI: Madala Hostel.

MR LAX: That's one place, what other places was she at? You said she was at the camps (in the plural).

MR MKHWANAZI: They did not have a fixed place, they even stayed at the hostels around Vereeniging.

MR LAX: You said she was at IFP camps, what other IFP camps was she at? Just answer my question.

MR MKHWANAZI: When they were at the hotels they would be in a group, they slept there in a group. At Madala they were in a group.

MR LAX: Who was this group? Who were the other members of this group?

MR MKHWANAZI: There were many. It means they came from different areas, Zone 11, Zone 13, Zone 7. I would not mention the names of others because I did not know them by names.

MR LAX: Did you see them in a group with other IFP members?

MR MKHWANAZI: Are you referring to Hapile?

MR LAX: Well who else would I be referring to?

MR MKHWANAZI: No, no.

MR LAX: Well then, you said you didn't know the other people in the group because they came from another place. That implies you saw them. Why are you giving us that impression if you didn't see them?

MR MKHWANAZI: I do not know their names but they came from different areas.

MR LAX: Yes, you won't explain your answer, I'm just pointing it out to you. The information that you had you say came from people that were questioned before they were killed, is that right?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR LAX: And you would ask them who else was living at the hostel, is that right?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR LAX: That is not you personally, but other people who then informed you, correct?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: Now how does the fact that somebody is living at the hostel make them a spy?

MR MKHWANAZI: They resided in the township, they knew the situation within the township, they knew who took part in activities at that time, now they gave the names of these people, they gave the names of those people who were looking for the members of the IFP.

MR LAX: But you see then you must explain your previous evidence. You didn't see this woman around from 1990, the violence only started in July 1990, that's common cause, after the rally at Zone 7. Everybody knows that. You didn't see her in the township, so how could she have known who had got involved if she wasn't there?

MR MKHWANAZI: She disappeared, she got captured by the comrades, lashes at the offices of the ANC, she spent a few months at home and she disappeared again.

MR LAX: So are you saying that in the time that she was in the township she picked up enough information as a spy to then go and tell everybody at Madala about what was going on?

MR MKHWANAZI: I think so because she used to attend meetings of the ANC as well, giving an impression that she is not going back. Now this is during the time when she was gathering information. And when she disappeared, that was forever, we never saw her again.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you when she disappeared, she disappeared forever, you never saw her again?

MR MKHWANAZI: I'm saying she lived in the township and they were warned for their activities and their party. After that she attended meetings of the ANC, giving an impression that she has forgotten about the activities of the IFP, and she disappeared again from the township.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) but not that she disappeared and never came back again. Are you not trying to tell us that she would disappear periodically from time to time? She would be around the township and you would then not see her for some few months and she would come back and you would not see her after that for some few months and she would come back, stay for some other few months, is that not evidence that you are trying to give to us?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

MR MKHWANAZI: I was trying to give the evidence that after these months that she spent in the township she disappeared and I never saw her in the township, she disappeared ever since.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you last see her in the township?

MR MKHWANAZI: That was after they were left at the offices of the ANC. I would not specify the time, I think it was around 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: But you know, I'm getting a little confused with your evidence, either you do not understand our line of questioning or things are not translated to you the way you can comprehend them easily or for some other reason, because when I questioned you earlier on to find out when you last saw Ms Ndumo, your evidence was you saw her two moths prior, the last time you saw her was two months prior the 15th of August 1993, being the occasion when she got killed. That's what I understood to be your evidence, and I understood you to be saying that she would disappear from time to time and when she did disappear you would assume that she was with the IFP. That's I understood your evidence.

MR MKHWANAZI: I did not mention that I saw her two months prior to her death, I said I saw her a few months after they were given lashes. She spent a few months in the township attending meetings of the ANC and she disappeared again. Not that I saw her prior to the killing.

CHAIRPERSON: When this incident occurred on the 15th of August 1993 you had not seen her for a long, long time, almost a year.

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.

Now this chap Skhalo that you mentioned, you said he lived in some shack area called Eating Site, is that right?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: And he was regularly in your company at that time.

MR MKHWANAZI: He was my friend before he joined. Even after he joined he would come to the township and show us the membership card of IFP, trying to convince us into joining with him.

MR LAX: Yes, when was that?

MR MKHWANAZI: It was 1990 or 1991.

MR LAX: At the time he was trying to convince you to join, had the violence already started?

MR MKHWANAZI: No, it had not started.

MR LAX: So it must have been before July 1990?

MR MKHWANAZI: I think so.

MR LAX: And he told you that these two ladies were members of the IFP already then, that's your evidence.

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, but he did not only mention the two of them, it was a group.

MR LAX: Well who else did he mention?

MR MKHWANAZI: Do you need their names?

MR LAX: Yes.

MR MKHWANAZI: Sesi was their friend, Meme, these are the ones I knew.

MR LAX: So Sesi, Meme, Elsie and Hapile?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR LAX: And how did he arrive at this conclusion that they were IFP members?

MR MKHWANAZI: I heard from the other comrades and from Skhalo and I full knowledge that they were members of the IFP.

MR LAX: The question was, how did he, Skhalo, arrive at this conclusion? What evidence did he tell you to base this upon?

MR MKHWANAZI: Skhalo was a member of the IFP and they lived together at Eating Site. He told me that they were recruited there in their living area.

MR LAX: So are you saying that the deceased at that point that Skhalo told you that, was already living with IFP people at Eating Site?

MR MKHWANAZI: She lived in Eating Site, coming back home, living in Eating Site, frequenting.

MR LAX: You see, just now I asked you to tell me other IFP camps that this person was seen at, you couldn't tell me any others.

MR MKHWANAZI: It must have been the slip of the tongue. When I mentioned the hotel, it was part of the camps and I mentioned the hostel. I was actually generalising.

MR LAX: Where did you get your training as an SDU member?

MR MKHWANAZI: In Sebokeng.

MR LAX: What sort of training did you get?

MR MKHWANAZI: I was trained in the use of firearms and I got physical training, and I was given political training, I attended political classes.

MR LAX: What firearms were you trained in?

MR MKHWANAZI: I was trained with a 9mm.

MR LAX: That's it?

MR MKHWANAZI: And the pumpgun.

MR LAX: Anything else?

MR MKHWANAZI: AK47.

MR LAX: Ja?

MR MKHWANAZI: That's all.

MR LAX: You said in your evidence that the decision to kill these people was taken there next to the tavern once Elsie started arguing.

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Why didn't you kill Hapile then at that stage?

MR MKHWANAZI: We did not have ammunition, we only had two bullets and they were in John Radebe's firearm. He saw it fit to finish off with this one who was arguing and leave with this other one, obtain ammunition and finish the job.

MR LAX: Didn't some of you have knives?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

MR LAX: Was Samuel present at the tavern?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

MR LAX: When did he come on the scene?

MR MKHWANAZI: We met him next to his home in Zone 12 Extension.

MR LAX: He had a knife with him.

MR MKHWANAZI: I did not see it.

MR LAX: You didn't ask anyone else for a knife so that you could finish this person off?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

MR LAX: You see, according to both your and Radebe's evidence - or let's put it another way, according to what's contained in your various affidavits you weren't going to kill them at that stage at all, you were only going to kill them much later once you'd questioned them and that is why you were taking them to the Zone 12 office, isn't that so?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is so.

MR LAX: So how could a decision have been taken to kill them at that point in time?

MR MKHWANAZI: Elsie was arguing and it was necessary to shoot her and forget about her because she was not co-operating.

MR LAX: Now all these girls that were IFP members from the township, weren't all of them wanted?

MR MKHWANAZI: We wanted them all.

MR LAX: What steps did you take before this day to track down these people?

MR MKHWANAZI: I do not understand your question.

MR LAX: What steps did you take to try and locate these people so that you could deal with them?

MR MKHWANAZI: Before which day, Sir?

MR LAX: Before the day you killed Hapile.

MR MKHWANAZI: We did not want them in the township, we would not go and start fighting against them where they were.

MR LAX: So you knew where they were?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR LAX: And where was that?

MR MKHWANAZI: Kwamadala.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax. Ms Bosman, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mkhwanazi?

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Mkhwanazi, did you know Ms Ndumo's family? - you said they lived only five houses from you.

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you know them well?

MR MKHWANAZI: Very well.

ADV BOSMAN: As far as you know were they ANC supporters?

MR MKHWANAZI: According to my knowledge they were not members of the ANC.

ADV BOSMAN: No, I asked were they ANC supporters.

MR MKHWANAZI: I do not know.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you have a good relationship with them?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you ever ask them where Hapile was, why she was no longer around?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

ADV BOSMAN: Why not?

MR MKHWANAZI: I would not ask them such a question, they would suspect that I was one of those people who wanted to kill their child. I did not want to sow hatred between myself and them.

ADV BOSMAN: But why would they have suspected this?

MR MKHWANAZI: There was a child in the family who died in Zone 12, and it was rumoured that the child was an Inkatha member. I think this family was always scared, now my coming and enquiring about the other child would have made me a suspect.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't understand that. This child you're referring to who had died, was it a member of this family?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: How old was Hapile?

MR MKHWANAZI: I do not know.

ADV BOSMAN: Approximately. Was she about your age at the time or was she a grown woman?

MR MKHWANAZI: I think she was a bit older than me.

ADV BOSMAN: Alright, thank you. The name Kendal Malakwane - I don't know whether I'm pronouncing it correctly, Kendal Paulos Malakwane, did you know the name?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Who was this person?

MR MKHWANAZI: He stayed around the Small Farm area.

ADV BOSMAN: Was he a member of the SDU?

MR MKHWANAZI: He was a member of the MK.

ADV BOSMAN: Was he not the commander of your unit?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

ADV BOSMAN: If Mr Radebe said that he was the commander of the unit, would you say no, it's a mistake?

MR MKHWANAZI: According to my knowledge Mr John Radebe once belonged to a unit in Small Farm. I would not dispute when he tells me that, I do not know.

ADV BOSMAN: When did he belong to the unit in Small Farm?

MR MKHWANAZI: 1990/1991, around those years.

ADV BOSMAN: When he was about 13 years old?

MR MKHWANAZI: I think so.

ADV BOSMAN: What I find a bit peculiar is this tavern was in Zone 8, was that a zone where ANC supporters stayed, Zone 8, or was it an IFP zone?

MR MKHWANAZI: The ANC supporters.

ADV BOSMAN: Now I don't know whether you have any suggestion but can you perhaps comment on it. I find it strange that women who have been lashed, women who have been away and are known that they are wanted by the people and they don't want them in the area, why would they come to a tavern in an ANC area? I just have no explanation for that, can you offer one?

MR MKHWANAZI: They might have gone to that area because it was not their place of living. They did not go to their area where they lived because they knew that when they get into the township they would identified easily. Maybe they went there because they knew they were not known.

ADV BOSMAN: Is Zone 8 a long way from Zone 12?

MR MKHWANAZI: It's quite a distance.

ADV BOSMAN: And then just one last question. On the day that you met John Radebe, on that Sunday, there was no plans or anything to go and ask any people questions or to enter into any political activities, on the Sunday when you met them?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

ADV BOSMAN: Now why did he insist that you should go with him?

MR MKHWANAZI: We were visiting a certain person in Zone 8 with John. We met him in Small Farm and he said we should please accompanying him to a tavern in Zone 8, there was someone owing him ....(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: No, but - if I could just stop you there, why do you say that he insisted that we should accompany him? It's in the two pages annexed to your application. Why did he insist?

MR MKHWANAZI: He did not insist.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know what the word insist means?

MR MKHWANAZI: According to my mind, insist is to force.

ADV BOSMAN: Alright then, let's just try again. Did you say to him that you did not want to go with him?

MR MKHWANAZI: No, we just agreed.

ADV BOSMAN: Now why did you use the word "insist"?

"He insisted and asked us to accompany him."

This is on page 183 of the bundle, the 5th line.

MR MKHWANAZI: I have a request to make. The statement is right but at the time of making this statement I was in a hurry, I had been informed that the date was due for the handing in of applications. Now I was in a hurry when I did this. Now somewhere along the line there would be mistakes and I am asking for your forgiveness in that regard.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, I have no further questions, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhwanazi, when you were just questioned by Ms Bosman as to why you didn't go to Ms Ndumo's house to find out about her whereabouts after she had disappeared, your response was that you didn't do so because you didn't want them to suspect that you were one of the people who intended to kill their child, do you recall giving that evidence?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a secret that you were a member of the SDU?

MR MKHWANAZI: It was not.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a secret only known to SDU members that if there IFP members or supporters in your midst it was your duty to eliminate them?

MR MKHWANAZI: It was not.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I find your response therefore to her question very surprising. Do you understand my concern? It brings me to an enquiry whether you as SDU members had a mandate to eliminate person who were perceived to be IFP members or supporters.

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have that mandate?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, we had.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you had that mandate and you were known to be a member of the SDU, and if the parents of Ms Ndumo were aware, as it would appear from the evidence, that there is every reason for them suggesting that they were aware that they were suspected by the community to be IFP members, they already knew that you as an SDU, you had a duty to eliminate her, is that not so?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is this suspicion, what is this evidence that you are talking of that you didn't want them to know that you were one of those who wanted to eliminate her?

MR MKHWANAZI: Firstly, these were my neighbours, living together in the township, and I, there could have been something that I wanted as my neighbours and I would have approached them for that. Now if they discovered that I was one of those people that wanted to kill their children or their child, they would not be in a position to assist me with anything.

CHAIRPERSON: I will not belabour the point, I will move on. I still have a very big question mark around that part of the evidence.

You say between 1991 and 1992 the community reacted to the activities of the ladies in question, through the assistance of one, Skhosana, by capturing them and administering lashes, have I understood your evidence properly?

MR MKHWANAZI: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage the community was aware that the two ladies, amongst others, were spying for the IFP, is it not so?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did they not eliminate them then?

MR MKHWANAZI: It happens often that you ask a person before killing him or her, the reasons for him or her to go there. It might have been discovered from the questions and responses that they were fit for forgiveness, then they were only given lashes.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to understand you clearly, and it is very important for me to understand you on this point.

Was it part of your mandate as SDU members to eliminate persons perceived in your midst, within your community, as being IFP members or supporters or spies, was that part of your broad mandate?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that mandate was understood by the community?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If that is so, why did the community then authorise any member of the SDU to have the ladies in question eliminated when they were captured between 1991 and 1992?

MR MKHWANAZI: I really do not know the reason why.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it not suggest to you that your powers as SDU members did not go to the extent of eliminating people once they were suspected of spying for the IFP who were staying within your communities, and that you first had to question them, as it was your original intention when you went to abduct them from the tavern?

MR MKHWANAZI: A person would be killed according to his or her actions. It might happen that the information that the community got out of these girls was not strong enough to kill them.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how different would that information have been from the information that resided within you when you decided to kill them?

MR MKHWANAZI: The information that the community got out of them is unknown to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't it been your evidence that it was a wild rumour, that's how I actually recorded it in my notes, that the ladies in question were spies as early as 1991?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was as a result of their spying that they were captured by comrade Skhosana?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And lashes administered by members of the community at large.

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How different was that information which the community had about the activities of the two ladies, from the information that you had by August 1993, that would have made it so different as to give yourselves a mandate to eliminate them?

MR MKHWANAZI: It is different in the sense that the Boipatong issue was raised. That was the reason that really made people fed-up.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you describe to us how exactly Ms Ndumo was killed? We already know that she was shot at by Mr Radebe in a place called Small Farm, can you describe how she was killed and tell us what happened after Mr Radebe had shot Ms Ndumo?

MR MKHWANAZI: When we arrived at Small Farm, John Radebe went to his friend to exchange firearms, he took a firearm that was loaded and he left with his friends an empty firearm.

Whilst waiting for him, asking Hapile questions, John appeared, John Radebe appeared. When he appeared he moved us out of the way and he fired the first shot. The deceased fell. He went closer and fired some shots.

When we left the place we left Samuel Neti and them. They said they would take her and throw her by the grounds because she was shot in someone's yard. That was the agreement. I left with John Radebe for Zone 12.

In the morning we went back to pick up the empty cartridges. When we arrived the body was not where we left it, the body was in the other yard. We picked up the empty cartridges and went to the body.

The deceased - on the thigh IFP initials were ...(indistinct). We then left, John Radebe got into his home and he picked up some clothes and we left for Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: You keep on referring to yourselves in a plural sense, you say "when we left the place we left Samuel Neti and them", are you suggesting that there were more people than you have already testified to? Who was with Sam Neti when you and Radebe left?

MR MKHWANAZI: It was Sam and his co-accused. It was my first time to see him on that day. I think he lives somewhere in Soweto.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not true that before Radebe shot Ms Ndumo, a small group of people had collected around Ms Ndumo, during her questioning by yourselves? Is that not the case?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, there were people but I do not know them.

CHAIRPERSON: Why have you omitted that piece of evidence, to say that there were members of the community around when she was being questioned, by you in particular?

MR MKHWANAZI: I did not mention them because I did not know them. What would I say if I mentioned them, who would I say they were?

CHAIRPERSON: Your evidence has not suggested that any member of the community was around when Ms Ndumo was shot. You don't have to say anything sophisticated other than that. You don't need more words to describe what happened at the scene which would put a small group of people at the scene when the shooting took place. Why should it be difficult for you to do that? Explain to me your difficulty because I do not understand it.

MR MKHWANAZI: My difficulty is that I did not know who those people were.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not say a small group of people were present when she was questioned by you and your colleagues, without having to identify them?

MR MKHWANAZI: It never came to my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage, was it your intention to kill her, you personally as Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And is it not true that you saw one of your colleagues, Samuel Neti dragging Ms Hapile after she had fallen onto the ground?

MR MKHWANAZI: I never saw him.

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage did you leave the scene when you didn't see Mr Neti dragging the body of Ms Ndumo away from where she had initially fallen?

MR MKHWANAZI: I did not see him dragging the body because after this incident myself and John Radebe left them at the scene, we went to Zone 12. As to who dragged the body I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it never suggested by Samuel Neti that you rape Ms Ndumo after she had been shot by Mr Radebe?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: If Mr Radebe maintains that version that he gave in Court, what would be your comment?

MR MKHWANAZI: I do not agree with what he says, I know it is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware that Mr Radebe said Mr Neti suggested that you and him rape Ms Ndumo after she had been shot at by him, but that you refused? Are you aware of that evidence having been led during your criminal trial?

MR MKHWANAZI: I'm not aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not present when Mr Radebe testified against you at your criminal trial as a State witness?

MR MKHWANAZI: I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying therefore that the judge has summarised the evidence that was never tendered in Court by Mr Radebe?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is the evidence that was given by Mr Radebe in Court.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from the information that you received from the gentleman who stayed at - I'm trying to get the name, Eating Site, that is Skhalo that suggested that Ms Ndumo was spying for the IFP, what other information did you have other than that one?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, we got information from comrades of other areas.

CHAIRPERSON: Which areas are those?

MR MKHWANAZI: We once found information from Zone 11.

CHAIRPERSON: Which was to what effect?

MR MKHWANAZI: Seemingly a member of IFP was captured in Zone 11 and that member was questioned and the member revealed Hapile and friends.

CHAIRPERSON: You do not have any information that is within your personal knowledge that she was such, apart from the information that you were given by other people like Skhalo and the other comrades who would have extracted that kind of information from people who were about to die, is it not so?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is so, I got the information on the day of her death.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in your affidavit you say that after you had killed Ms Ndumo and seriously injured Ms Mokoena, you reported the incident to your sub-branch. My question is, when you got that information about Ms Mokoena and Ms Ndumo, did you discuss it with the leadership of your local branch, prior to killing her?

MR MKHWANAZI: At times it happened that when we were at the office we would chat among ourselves regarding such issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you discuss the information with the leadership in your branch is the question that is put to you.

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And who in the leadership did you discuss this information with?

MR MKHWANAZI: It was Stanley.

CHAIRPERSON: And what position did he at the time of your discussion, occupy in the leadership?

MR MKHWANAZI: He was the Chairperson of the Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: And when were these discussions, in terms of years, was it in 1991/1992 or in early '93?

MR MKHWANAZI: From late 1992 we had some discussions whilst at the office.

CHAIRPERSON: And what attitude did he adopt with regard to that information you shared with him about the ladies in question?

MR MKHWANAZI: The issue regarding attitude was not important in our discussions, we only discussed issues relating to stopping them from entering the township, or if they are in the township what do we do with them. Those are issues we discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you suggest that you could proceed to eliminate them?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Moloisane?

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhwanazi, Mr Samuel Neti was with you when Ms Ndumo was shot by Mr Radebe, not so?

MR MKHWANAZI: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware that Mr Neti was armed with a knife?

MR MKHWANAZI: I was not aware.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see Mr Neti produce a knife at any stage either before Ms Ndumo was shot at by Mr Radebe, or immediately after she had been shot at by Mr Radebe?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you witness Ms Ndumo's clothes being torn off her body by anyone?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where was Mr Radebe immediately after Ms Ndumo was shot? Were you not with him?

MR MKHWANAZI: I was with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if, during your criminal trial, he said that you both saw Samuel Neti dragging the body of Ms Ndumo some distance away from where she had initially fallen to, and further tearing off her clothes, what would be your comment, if you were with Mr Radebe all along?

MR MKHWANAZI: I did not witness that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible that you could be there at the same time and you witnessed different things, particularly concerning a target that you had just eliminated?

MR MKHWANAZI: I saw everything that happened during that time.

CHAIRPERSON: But you saw differently to your colleague, Mr Radebe?

MR MKHWANAZI: We saw one thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in your evidence you say that you returned the next day because you wanted to collect empty cartridges, did I understand your evidence correctly in that regard?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not collect the cartridges immediately after you had shot Ms Ndumo, why should you wait until the next day to do that?

MR MKHWANAZI: It was already dark.

CHAIRPERSON: What time was it?

MR MKHWANAZI: It was round about 7 to 8 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: And what time did you return to the scene the next morning?

MR MKHWANAZI: In the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: What time?

MR MKHWANAZI: Round about past 5 to 6 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that you, it's then that you witnessed that Ms Ndumo's body had been desecrated?

MR MKHWANAZI: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: And you don't know who's responsible for that?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you don't know who's responsible for that?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you returned you saw her lying dead on the ground with the word Inkatha cut into her thigh?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she clothed?

MR MKHWANAZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she naked?

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, the clothes had been taken off.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Moloisane, emanating from the questions put by the Panel to Mr Mkhwanazi, do you have any re-examination to do on him?

MS MOLOISANE: I have no questions in re-examination, Madam Chair.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, we don't know how you propose to conduct these proceedings, but we would appreciate if we could have Mr Radebe coming to give his testimony in relation to this incident and thereafter we afford the victims who are opposing the application of Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Radebe in relation to this incident, testifying in opposition of your clients' applications in relation to the Ndumo incident, and thereafter afford Mr Radebe an opportunity to testify in support of his application in respect of the other incident. Will that accord with how you want to conduct your clients' applications?

MS MOLOISANE: I have no objection as to the way in which evidence can be led.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think this will just ensure that we have some order in our record if we followed the procedure recommended by the Committee.

MS MOLOISANE: I agree, Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms Thabete, do you agree with the suggestion?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I note that the time is half past four and we have to hear the evidence of Mr Radebe in relation to the incident testified to by Mr Mkhwanazi, do you think it will be in order for Mr Radebe to be here for 30 minutes and then leave for prison?

MS MOLOISANE: It won't be possible, Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm aware that prison authorities are loathe to allow us to go further than 5 o'clock, in fact they prefer that we should leave at 4 o'clock because of the problems, the peculiar problems that they always have to make sure that they do not suffer, which we need not mention here, that you are aware of as counsel.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In that case I think we'll adjourn these proceedings until tomorrow morning. What time will be convenient for us to start?

MS MOLOISANE: Can I add something?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: I'll be in Court tomorrow morning. I was only given today's date by the Chief Commissioner.

CHAIRPERSON: We were under the impression, Ms Moloisane, that you had been warned to be here for the whole week.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes, but then we received documentation to the effect that my application would be heard today and tomorrow it will be Advocate Lopeng(?) with his applicants, and it runs like that. Well fortunately we are all at the Pretoria Bar so we know how each of, I mean the time that has been allocated to each of us.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm aware that you've not appeared before the Amnesty Committee and you therefore will not know of the peculiar problems attached to this process, that things are completely out of our hands. As to when a matter will be capable of being concluded is something that we can hardly give to counsel, but a matter cannot be allocated a particular period, a matter can run, it can be put down and estimated to be capable of being finalised within a day but for reasons beyond anyone's control it runs for longer than that, as you are aware today. And we've hardly got to the evidence of Mr Radebe who still has to give testimony in respect of two incidents.

MS MOLOISANE: I do agree, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we find ourselves in great difficulties if we cannot proceed tomorrow with this matter. We have victims who are travelling from far, and this is not a matter that I would like to pend indefinitely. We have a duty to society, particular to victims, to make sure that if the matter has been heard it gets concluded as speedily as possible. If this matter is not heard tomorrow then it means it's going to be part-heard and the chances of reconstituting this Panel within the next 9 months are very slim, because we already have matters allocated to each and every member and we will sitting in different Panels, and this will cause untold delays to this matter and it's something that we wouldn't like to have, we'd like to avoid at all costs. Is there no possibility of you trying to arrange for tomorrow's matter to stand down?

MS MOLOISANE: It's not possible because it's an urgent application on behalf of the Minister of Home Affairs, whom I represent, and they knew that I would be here today.

CHAIRPERSON: But Ms Moloisane, ...(intervention)

MS MOLOISANE: And the urgent application has been set down for 10 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: ... when we started these proceedings, were you not as counsel aware that this is a matter that would not be capable of being concluded today, particularly because we started this application at 2 o'clock? - and this was by agreement.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, I do not want to enter into a dialogue with the Chair, but the matter, the first matter of Levy Makoe lasted for less than an hour and I was under the impression that the same would happen with this one, and all those activities happened in the Vaal Triangle townships. Above all, all the other advocates who have been appearing here appeared for a day only and because it was, I had been allocated today's date only, I rescheduled my programme ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: May I respond without entering into a dialogue with you, and say the Committee made you quite aware in chambers that this was not a matter that would be disposed of today. We made you aware and I remember that I said to you this is a matter which is opposed and you said you had not been made aware that the matter was opposed, but I advised you in chambers that the matter was opposed and that I suspected that the matter would last longer than a day. You did not say anything in response to my intimation.

MS MOLOISANE: The Committee Members can also bear that, can support me on that, I did not hear that, Madam Chair. The only thing that we talked about was that there was a potential for a conflict of interests in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: That was much earlier in the morning, much earlier in the morning.

MS MOLOISANE: And that is the reason that made me not to go to the MEC's office anymore, I simply phoned them and told them I wouldn't be coming anymore.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it was much earlier in the morning, then you came back to advise us that you had cancelled your meeting.

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But we had advised you, we had advised quite early in the morning that this was a matter that would not be disposed of within a day.

MS MOLOISANE: I did not hear that, I did not hear that.

CHAIRPERSON: We must see you in chambers.

These proceedings will stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.

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