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Amnesty Hearings

Type AMNESTY HEARINGS

Starting Date 18 February 1999

Location JOHANNESBURG

Day 8

CHAIRPERSON:†††Good morning to you all. Today we are still proceeding with the amnesty applications of Mr Radebe and Mr Maletsatsi.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, the witness Mabusa Mhlango that I intended to call in support of the applicantís case, Madam Chair and Committee Members, is not here.

MR LAX: Sorry to interrupt you. Thereís something wrong with the sound, itís not coming through on our receivers. Itís going through on the floor but itís not coming through on the receivers.

MS MOLOISANE: Thereís something wrong with my microphone.

TECHNICAL PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, I had an interview with the witness.

TECHNICAL PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, yesterday, that was the 17th, I had an interview with the witness that I intended calling in support of the applicantís case. The witness in question is Mabusa Mhlongo, who was allegedly the unit commander of the applicant, rather of the unit to which both applicants belonged at the time when the incident that led to this application took place, Madam Chair. From my interview with Mabusa Mhlongo it transpired, or rather I noticed, that he could not give a logical account of what happened then. I opined that there is something wrong with his mind, Madam Chair, and I also concluded that he was not in a mental state to can adduce evidence before this Committee. I therefore request this Committee to give me permission to send him, or to have him sent, to a psychologist or to a psychiatrist for an assessment, regarding his mental state.

However, I have also made arrangements that the said witness be fetched from his home in Sebokeng so that the Committee Members can also have a look at him, although I intend relying on the psychologistís or psychiatristís report or assessment in this regard Madam Chair and Committee Members. I am therefore not calling him to come and testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, can you give an indication when you intend to have him assessed by either a psychologist or a psychiatrist?

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair I have spoken to the ANCís desk who ascertain patients, who is the person in charge of these proceedings at the ANCís desk or office, Madam Chair. If I have to put it that way, and she will be arriving at any moment from now Madam Chair, and I intend arranging that a psychologistís assessment be done tomorrow. And I intend to finalise those arrangements before the close of business today.

CHAIRPERSON: We will grant you your request that you have him assessed by either a psychologist or a psychiatrist, but we must stress that in view of the short life-span of the Committee, we would expect a report to be submitted to us within a very reasonable time. We therefore, without being unreasonable ourselves, must indicate that we would expect such a report to be submitted to our Cape Town office within 21 days from today.

MS MOLOISANE: I will try my best to secure that report within 21 days Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. That would have been your last witness?

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of the Elsie Mokoena and Hapile Ndumo incident.

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, what is the position from your side? Do you intend to call any witnesses in respect of the incident we are currently dealing with?

MS THABETHE: Yes Madam Chair. If the Committee can allow me to call Elsie Mokoena, who I had intended to call as a witness. She is the victim in this matter. I had also indicated to the Committee Members that the mother of Hapile Ndumo would like to say something as well, in public, so I would like to call her as well.

CHAIRPERSON: These applications are opposed, are they not?

MS THABETHE: My instructions are that they are opposed Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You may therefore proceed to call the witness Elsie Mokoena.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair. I call Elsie Mokoena to come.

Madam Chair may I request the sound technicians to come and put another mike please?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair the witness will testify in Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Elsie, please stand up. Can you hear me?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Please stand. Do you swear that the evidence that you will give this Committee will be the truth, the only truth, if that is so, raise your right and say so help me God.

ELSIE MOKOENA: (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may sit down.

MR LAX: Ms Moloisane can you just switch off your mike please, thanks.

EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Ms Mokoena can you state your full names for the record please.

MS MOKOENA: Elsie Mandayi Mokoena.

MS THABETHE: Where do you reside?

MS MOKOENA: Sebokeng, Zone 12.

MS THABETHE: With regard to the incident which took place on the 15th of August 1993, did you know John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi?

MS MOKOENA: Yes, I did.

MS THABETHE: Before I come to the actual incident that of day, how old were you on 15th August 1993?

MS MOKOENA: I was 15 years old.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, may I just request that you shift your chair slightly to your left, to enable us to be able to have sight of Ms Mokoena as she gives her evidence. Yes, maybe that would be ideal, thank you.

MS THABETHE: My question is where did you know Fani Mkhwanazi from?

MS MOKOENA: I know him from Zonto, we grew up together. I just know him by sight.

MS THABETHE: Where, where did you see him?

MS MOKOENA: Are you referring to John Radebe?

MS THABETHE: Yes.

MS MOKOENA: I used to see him around the township.

MS THABETHE: When, did you know them to be members of the SDU or ANC? That is John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi?

MS MOKOENA: I knew them as members of the ANC.

MS THABETHE: In the tavern, is it correct that John Radebe called you outside, went into the tavern ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: When, when Ms Thabethe? Advise the witness so that she can give ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: In the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, she can know which date you want her to give evidence about.

MS THABETHE: On the 15th of August, Mr Mokoena. Did John go into the tavern and call you outside?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Why did he say he was calling you outside?

MS MOKOENA: He said we should go to the Zone 12 office.

MS THABETHE: What reason did you give for you to go to Zone 12 office?

MS MOKOENA: He told me that they wanted to discuss something with us.

MS THABETHE: Did you ask him what that something was?

MS MOKOENA: I did not ask him.

MS THABETHE: When he told you this were you still inside the tavern, or outside the tavern?

MS MOKOENA: We were outside the tavern.

MS THABETHE: And they what did you say when they said you must go to Zone 12?

MS MOKOENA: I refused.

MS THABETHE: Why did you refuse?

MS MOKOENA: I refused because I thought they were going to rape us.

MS THABETHE: According to the applicants, that is John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanaziís evidence, they allege that they told you that you were wanted by the community and your response was that you knew that you were wanted by the community. What is your comment to that?

MS MOKOENA: They did not say anything about the community wanting us. Nothing.

MS THABETHE: Is it true that in Sebokeng there was an IFP area?

MS MOKOENA: There was no IFP area, I only knew it to be in Boipatong where members of the IFP resided.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Interpreter didnít the witness say she knew that to have been in vanderBijl Park and not Boipatong?

INTERPRETER: Apologies Madam Chair.

MS THABETHE: Was there any other IFP area near Sebokeng, where the IFP resided?

MS MOKOENA: Yes, but not inside the township. Outside.

MS THABETHE: Where was it?

MS MOKOENA: It was right outside Sebokeng, not inside the township.

MS THABETHE: What was the area called? Was it in vanderBijl Park?

MS MOKOENA: Yes. The area I knew was vanderBijl Park next to Boipatong.

MS THABETHE: Was this the area that we have heard the applicants referring to as Kwamadala?

MS MOKOENA: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Did you, at any stage, reside at Kwamadala?

MS MOKOENA: No, I do not know Kwamadala. Iíve never even set my foot inside the yard.

MS THABETHE: The applicants have said that you did. So is it your evidence that you never stayed there?

MS MOKOENA: I never stayed in Kwamadala. Theyíre talking what they do not know. Iíve never set my foot in Kwamadala.

MS THABETHE: We also heard yesterday about a person called Meme. Do you know this person?

MS MOKOENA: I know that person a lot.

MS THABETHE: How do you know her?

MS MOKOENA: Meme was my friend.

MS THABETHE: We also heard evidence yesterday that in Memeís house there used to come IFP people and youíd also visit there. What is your explanation, or what is your response to that?

MS MOKOENA: My response is that Meme was my friend. Yes, I did go to Memeís place, but Iíve never seen cars.

MS THABETHE: Is it not correct that you and Meme and your friends associated yourselves with the Ratesi ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Ratesi is the personís name.

MS THABETHE: Ratesi and IFP members?

MS MOKOENA: I do not know Ratesi and his friends. Iíve never met them.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know him by sight, this Ratesi?

MS MOKOENA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you heard about him?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you. Did you belong to any political organisation?

MS MOKOENA: No.

MS THABETHE: Do you know, what was your relationship with Hapile Ndumo?

MS MOKOENA: We were school mates and she was my friend.

MS THABETHE: Is it also correct that you spent a lot of time together?

MS MOKOENA: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: In the light of the evidence that youíve given, why do you think then the applicant had targeted you and Hapile Ndumo?

MS MOKOENA: They used to target girls, John Radebe and ...(indistinct).

MS THABETHE: What do you mean they used to target girls? What did they used to do to girls?

MS MOKOENA: They once took two girls in the township.

MS THABETHE: What did they do with those girls? When they took those girls, what happened?

MS MOKOENA: They took these girls and they went to sleep with them. They were returned in the morning.

MS THABETHE: How do you know this?

MS MOKOENA: One of the girls was my friend.

MS THABETHE: What was her name?

MS MOKOENA: Sissy.

MR LAX: We need another mike there please.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members I object to this kind of evidence being adduced.

CHAIRPERSON: On what basis Ms Mogwesi?

MS MOLOISANE: As it amounts to hearsay evidence the probative value of which will never be ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Well, from what has been said there is nothing to indicate that this is hearsay.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair the allegation of sleeping together, thatís what the witness says. She says John Radebe and others slept with those girls. Those girls are the only persons or people who can come and testify to that effect, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Well unless there is a clear indication that one of the girls who is alleged as being a relative of Ms Mokoena never told Ms Mokoena directly about this incident, so I will allow this line of question by Ms Thabethe because maybe she is still laying a basis for what is yet to come about how Ms Mokoena knows about this information.

MS MOLOISANE: As it please you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed. There is a problem with these microphones.

MS THABETHE: My question was, why do you think they targeted you, and you were still saying itís because they were always targeting girls, and you had been told by Sissy that they took them one night and slept with them. Is that your evidence?

MS MOKOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe that is not the evidence that is before us. I donít think she had gone on to say she had been told by Sissy.

MS THABETHE: She did.

CHAIRPERSON: She did?

MS MOKOENA: Well I would have been able to respond to Ms Molisane. Thatís not hearsay evidence at all. Thatís within her knowledge after having been told by a victim concerned. Thatís what you have said. You may therefore proceed.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair. Who did you say Sissy was?

MS MOKOENA: Sissy was my friend.

MS THABETHE: How close was she to you?

MS MOKOENA: She was my school mate as well.

MS THABETHE: You were still explaining why you think you were targeted by the applicants, that is Hapile Ndumo.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe shouldnít you exhaust this issue before you move to something else? When was this information relayed to her by Sissy?

MS THABETHE: When was this information relayed to you?

MS MOKOENA: She told me two days after they were taken. Two days after they were taken.

MS THABETHE: Would you remember when this was? Like in terms of years?

MS MOKOENA: I remember the year. It was in 1992. Late 1992.

MS THABETHE: Donít you remember the month?

MS MOKOENA: I do not remember the month.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you say it was winter, it was spring, if you say late 1992, was it spring or was it in summer?

MS MOKOENA: It was towards December.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. That assists us a great deal.

MS THABETHE: Did she tell you where they took her to?

MS MOKOENA: Yes, she told me.

MS THABETHE: Where, where did they take her to?

MS MOKOENA: They took them to Zone 12 extension.

MS THABETHE: Where, where in Zone 12?

MS MOKOENA: At a certain house next to the Mpasani shopping complex.

MS THABETHE: And did she tell you who John Radebe was with?

MS MOKOENA: She told me.

MS THABETHE: Who did she say he was with?

MS MOKOENA: John was with Godfrey.

MS THABETHE: Anyone else?

MS MOKOENA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Godfrey who? Do you know the surname of Godfrey?

MS MOKOENA: I do not know his surname.

CHAIRPERSON: And where did he stay? Which zone in Sebokeng did Godfrey stay in?

MS MOKOENA: He resided in Zone 12.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Can I move Madam Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you. My question is still why do you think you were targeted by the applicants, you and Hapile Ndumo?

MS MOKOENA: I do not know why they targeted us.

MS THABETHE: But why do you think they targeted you, even though you donít know their reason? Why do you think they targeted you?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want anything further from what she has already stated?

MS THABETHE: No I just wanted to clarify it because I asked her why, why, why was she targeted. So I want her to tell me why does she think she was targeted, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Hasnít she already stated that she thought they had targeted her and her friend because she thought they wanted to rape her?

MS THABETHE: I didnít think she was saying that Madam Chair, but I can verify that.

MR LAX: Sorry, that was her earlier evidence, Ms Thabethe, and with regard to anything besides that she stated clearly she doesnít know. Whatís the point of?

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Iíll move on. Thank you. You say you knew Hapile Ndumo very well, is that correct?

MS MOKOENA: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Did she at any stage, to your knowledge, reside in an IFP area, that is at Madala Hostel?

MS MOKOENA: No. I do not know.

MS THABETHE: How do you know this?

MS MOKOENA: ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Letís correct what the witness said. Did you say you did not know that Hapile Ndumo ever stayed at Kwamadala Hostel, or that you know that she had never stayed at Kwamadala Hostel?

MS MOKOENA: I know she never stayed in a hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Thatís right, I just wanted. I thought I heard you differently.

MS THABETHE: My question was, how do you know that she never resided in an IFP area?

MS MOKOENA: She was together with me always. During the week, at the week-ends, even at school.

MS THABETHE: Do you know Mr Skosana?

MS MOKOENA: A lot.

MS THABETHE: How do you know him?

MS MOKOENA: Can I briefly elaborate how it came about that I know Skosana?

MS THABETHE: Yes.

MS MOKOENA: Skosana once arrived at home, it was at night. He knocked at the door. My granny opened the door for him, and he asked my granny where I was and where the boyfriend was, my boyfriend. And the granny asked him where are you taking them to? If you donít tell me the reason you want them I am not going to tell you where they were. They were arguing and it came to a point where Skosana said to my granny, if you do not tell me where they are I will search for them myself in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Just try and give your evidence in a pace that will enable us to write down what you are saying, and enable the interpreter to translate everything that you are saying.

MS MOKOENA: Can I carry on? He then said to my granny, if she was not telling him where we were he would search the house himself. When he said he would search for himself, I was still listening. I was in the bedroom. I went out of the bedroom and got into the other and went out through the window and ran away. I went to our neighbours and I spent the night there. In the morning I went back home. When I arrived my granny told me to leave. She said we should leave for Hlombaniís office to go and report this issue. When we arrived at the office five comrades were released to come and sleep over at my place for protection. Thatís how I knew Skosana.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned a name that I couldnít get. How do you spell that name?

MS MOKOENA: Itís Hlombani.

CHAIRPERSON: As in Zulu? Not Hlonwane?

MS MOKOENA: Hlombani.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Before I ask you about where Hlombani office was, did you know Mr Skosana to be a member of an ANC or a member of an SDU?

MS MOKOENA: I knew Skosana as an ANC, as I heard it from people.

CHAIRPERSON: And what portfolio did Mr Hlombani occupy within the ANC?

MS MOKOENA: I think he was the chairperson, if Iím not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the ANC branch, or the ANC youth league?

MS MOKOENA: I do not know, but I knew him to be the senior.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and where were his offices located, in Zone 12?

MS MOKOENA: There was a garage in his yard in Zone 12 that was his office.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did this incident of Skosana coming to knock at your house occur? Can you remember the month and the year?

MS MOKOENA: Yes, I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, when was that.

MS MOKOENA: It was in 1992, in June.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair. Why did you go and report him to Hlombani office?

MS MOKOENA: We were going to ask them to protect us.

MS THABETHE: Can you explain to the Committee what was Hlombani office, was it an ANC office, was it a community office, what was it?

MS MOKOENA: It was an office. When we were going to Hlombaniís place we said we were going to an ANC office.

MS THABETHE: So, are you saying that the comrades that they sent to your house were ANC? You say they were ANC supporters or members?

MS MOKOENA: I know them to be members.

MS THABETHE: After the attack by Mr Skosana, or after the visit by Mr Skosana, did you ever find out why he wanted you and your boyfriend?

MS MOKOENA: I did not.

MS THABETHE: Can you tell this Committee Member, the Committee Members about who your boyfriend was?

MS MOKOENA: My boyfriend was Johannes Msimi.

MS THABETHE: Why would you think Skosana wanted him and you?

MS MOKOENA: I do not know.

MS THABETHE: Was Hapile Ndumo every involved in the Boipatong ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you leave this matter Ms Thabethe, was your boyfriend a member of the ANC?

MS MOKOENA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a member of the IFP?

MS MOKOENA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge was he perceived to be associated with the IFP?

MS MOKOENA: No, I have never come across such a problem regarding him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a policeman?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was he stationed? In Sebokeng?

MS MOKOENA: He was stationed at De Deur.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a uniformed policeman?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would he visit you in his uniform at your home?

MS MOKOENA: He stayed with me at home. When he left for work he left in uniform.

CHAIRPERSON: And for how long had you been staying with him prior to the 15th of August 1993?

MS MOKOENA: I stayed with him from 1991 until 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe, you may proceed.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair. According to the evidence of the applicants the policemen in the township were perceived to be associated with the IFP. Didnít your boyfriend as a policeman fall into that category?

MS MOKOENA: No, he didnít fall in that category.

MS THABETHE: Why do you say so?

MS MOKOENA: Itís because he lived in the township, and I had never seen comrades coming home accusing him of being a policeman and that policemen were not wanted in the township. He lived like anybody else in the township.

MS THABETHE: To you knowledge, was Hapile ever involved in Boipatong massacre?

MS MOKOENA: Hapile ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe why donít you confine that question to her?

MS THABETHE: Sorry Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Why donít you find out about her own involvement in Boipatong massacre?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair itís because, according to the applicantsí evidence, Hapile was involved in Boipatong massacre and I had said to them Iíve got instructions that she was not.

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence was that she also was involved in the Boipatong massacre. She has not been excluded in that activity, and thatís why they both were targeted. Isnít that the evidence thatís before us? Itís not only Ms Ndumo, itís Ms Ndumo and Ms Mokoena, and youíd be in a position to get better evidence from her, rather than to have her speculate about whether Ms Ndumo was or was not involved in the Boipatong massacre.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair, I was not aware that Ms Mokoena was also implicated in the Boipatong massacre.

CHAIRPERSON: She definitely was. They both would go about knocking at peopleís doors at night, screaming, and people would open the doors because they would hear female voices, and once they opened the doors then people would come in and attack those who had opened the doors.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair. Ms Mokoena were you ever involved in Boipatong massacre?

MS MOKOENA: I was at home during the Boipatong massacre. I did not take part, and Hapile was in gaol during that time.

MS THABETHE: Weíve also heard evidence that ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, can you tell us which period you say Ms Ndumo was in gaol? During which period are you referring to?

MS MOKOENA: Hapile was arrested in June, if I remember well, and she was released late July, around 31st of July, 1st of August.

CHAIRPERSON: For what was she arrested, if you know?

MS MOKOENA: Can I briefly explain why she was arrested?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOKOENA: Hapile and other girls resided at a certain place belonging to Oupa, who was a comrade. They lived with some of the comrades. It happened that one day these comrades took a bakkie from a white woman and they killed her. One of the comrades took a van and went to Sharpeville, and he was accosted by the police. They told him that they were looking for the van, and he pointed a place where they all stayed, including Hapile and them. When the police arrived there they found Hapile and some of the comrades, and all of them were arrested. They were taken by the police to Barrage cells, they were kept in the cells and the comrades managed to escape. Hapile and them were released because Jay Naidoo interfered, intervened.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware when Boipatong massacre took place?

MS MOKOENA: If Iím not mistaken it happened in June.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair. When would you say Hapile Ndumo was arrested, before or after the Boipatong massacre?

MS MOKOENA: She was arrested before.

(gap between tapes)

MS THABETHE: ... the incident of 15th August 1993. Would you explain to the Committee how you escaped the second time after you were shot?

MS MOKOENA: I escaped whilst we were at a certain house. It was at Zandiís house. I was told to remain outside. While I was outside I sat down. Zandi came out to me, and he said I should kiss him, and I requested water because I was full of blood. He went back into the house for quite a long time and because I did not see them for a lengthy period I decided to run away. Thatís how I escaped.

MS THABETHE: It was also the applicantsí evidence that Bopipo, that is Mr Ntjolo, was chasing after you. Did you see him chasing after you after you had escaped?

MS MOKOENA: No, I did not see him.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe we would prefer that you lead evidence and donít put it to the witness what has been stated by the applicants. What they have said, may not in fact be the truth, so youíd be better off just seeking evidence from her as to what transpired so that we get her full version.

You have not covered the aspect of what happened from the time they were abducted from the tavern to the time where now she is at Zandiís place. We have not heard her version of events in regard to those aspects, and those are important aspects. We would prefer to have her own version in regard to those aspects. Donít adduce evidence by putting to her what has been stated by the applicants. You will then be denying us an opportunity of getting her version, which version would then be in a position to contrast with that of the applicants.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair, Iím indebted to you. Iíll do as you say. Ms Mokoena, the last time I asked you about the incident of the 15th of August 1993 you had told this Committee that you refused to go with John Radebe and others after he had asked you to go to the offices. What transpired thereafter?

MS MOKOENA: After refusing to go, John Radebe asked Abraham Mkhwanazi as to what should happen to me.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to ask you again. We have all kinds of interferences with the sound, and there is now drilling which is going on outside, just try and be slow when you give your evidence. Itís very important for us to write down what you are saying. You may proceed. John Radebe then asked Mr Mkhwanazi what he should do, what should happen to you? Will you come back to that? What did John Radebe say to Mkhwanazi?

MS MOKOENA: He asked Abraham as to what he should do to me because I was refusing to go. Abraham said he did not know what he should do to me. I saw him pulling a gun from his waist, and he shot at me. He shot me to the neck.

After shooting me I ran away into the house at the tavern, and I hid behind a sofa. John Radebe came in, he found me behind the sofa, he ordered me to go out, and I went out. There were people outside asking as to what was happening. John Radebe responded to them by saying we were members of the IFP. Himself and Abraham had their firearms in their hands and we left the tavern, got into one of the streets, and headed for Small Farms.

People were following us, and John Radebe was telling them to back, not to follow us, otherwise he would crush their heads. We then, John Radebe was ordering us to run.

CHAIRPERSON: You are still too fast there. You are so fast that itís amazing the interpreter is able to keep up with you but heís doing so at great difficulty, to his ears and his mind, so I know itís difficult. Just try and be a little slower. Will you just repeat your evidence where a group of people were following you and were asking what was going on, and Radebe was telling them to back otherwise he would crush their heads. Continue from there.

MS MOKOENA: When they heard that their heads were going to be crushed the people turned back. John ordered us to run, and we did as we were told, and I was bleeding. Abraham was merciful on that day, he gave me a toilet paper to wipe the blood off, and he did not want us to run.

Thereís a school called Zeta, we took the street that is running parallel to Zeta and we headed downwards. There was an open space next to a certain house. They ordered us to stop there. Abraham and John left us with Bopipo and they ran into a yard that was nearby. They came back to us. When they arrived Abraham said we are now going to Zone 12 ...(indistinct)

... itís John.

We left for Zone 12. There is an open space that is dividing Small Farm and Zone 12. We stopped there again. John, Abraham and Bopipo went aside, talking among themselves, but I did not hear what they were saying. They left Bopipo with us. He had a gun. And they ran to Zone 12 Extension while we remained behind. When they came back they were with Zandi. When Zandi arrived he asked me whether I knew Meme. I responded by saying yes, I knew her. I told him that Meme was my friend, and he sad to me wow if you are Memeís friends then we are going to kill you.

The four of them went aside again and they conversed among themselves. John and Abraham left for the old Zone 12 through Zone 12 Extension, and the rest of us went to Zandiís place. I was at the front when we went into Zandiís place. Bopipo pulled me back. They went into the house. When I wanted to get into the house they shut the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Who went into the house?

MS MOKOENA: Itís Hapile, Zandi and Bopipo.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long were they inside the house whilst you were outside?

MS MOKOENA: About five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: You were left on your own outside?

MS MOKOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: You may proceed.

MS MOKOENA: I sat down waiting for them. Whilst waiting Zandi came out, and he said I should kiss him. I told him to get me water. He went back into the house for about five minutes. Then I decided to stand up and run away, and thatís what I did. I ran to Zone 10. When there was a car in the street with its lights bright there were people inside that vehicle, two of them, I saw them coming out of the car, coming towards my direction. They asked me as to what was happening because my clothes were full of blood. I told them that I had been shot. They took me into a house, into the house. It was a couple, it was a woman and a man. And the man asked me where did they shoot me. I told him itís at the neck, and he told me they did not have telephones, he would go and try to call an ambulance, and after a while an ambulance came to take me to Sebokeng hospital.

MS THABETHE: In the evidence led by the applicants we heard about certain Sepapo. Did you know him?

MS MOKOENA: I did not know Sepapo, but the name was well known in the township that there was a person called Sepapo.

MS THABETHE: Did you at any stage hear the applicants say they are going to Sepapoís place?

MS MOKOENA: No. I did not hear them at any stage, because when they conversed among themselves they would stand aside so that we did not hear.

MS THABETHE: Do you know Mr Mabusa?

MS MOKOENA: Yes, I know him.

MS THABETHE: Where do you know him from?

MS MOKOENA: I know him from Zone 12.

MS THABETHE: Did you know him to belong to any political organisation?

MS MOKOENA: I know him to be a member of the ANC.

MS THABETHE: Weíve heard from the applicants that Mabusa said you were sell-outs. Did you know anything about this?

MS MOKOENA: I do not know anything about that. I donít know whether Mabusa said that.

MS THABETHE: Have you ever heard in the township, in Zone 12, any rumours of you having been regarded as sell-outs.

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Where did you hear such rumours from?

MS MOKOENA: Can I explain?

MS THABETHE: Yes you can.

MS MOKOENA: One day, it was on a Sunday, I was coming from the soccer, a certain boy arrived. His name was comrade Fish. He arrived at home and told me that I was wanted to Nghlombaniís place, and I asked him why. And he told me that there were people spreading the rumour I was a sell-out. It was on a Sunday when he told me that, and he said I was wanted at the office on Monday 11 oíclock in the morning.

MS THABETHE: Sorry Ms Mokoena. Do you remember when this was, in terms of years?

MS MOKOENA: I remember.

MS THABETHE: When was it?

MS MOKOENA: It was in 1992.

MS THABETHE: Do you remember the month

MS MOKOENA: It was in March.

MS THABETHE: Yes, you may proceed.

MS MOKOENA: I went to Hlombaniís place and I was questioned. What they did, they told me that, they asked me what was going on between me and the policeman. I told them that he was my boyfriend, and they told me that I knew that policemen were not wanted in the township because they are associated with Inkatha. I told them that yes, I know, but my boyfriend is not associated with Inkatha because he lives with me. Thatís how I responded to their question. I told them I do not know him to be associated with the IFP, he is with me most of the times.

MS THABETHE: Then what was their response?

MS MOKOENA: They understood. And they carried out their investigations.

MS THABETHE: I just want to go back to this questioning. Were you the only one who were questioned that day?

MS MOKOENA: No, I was not alone. It was many of us. Nine girls and one boy.

MS THABETHE: So what happened, were you all questioned at one time? Or were you questioned separately?

MS MOKOENA: They were asking everybody. They would ask one person questions today and the next day they would ask the other person.

MS THABETHE: We also heard in the applicantís ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you leave that aspect Ms Thabethe, when you say you were questioned individually every day, for how long did this enquiry last?

MS MOKOENA: This process took a month and two weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean the questioning only?

MS MOKOENA: Yes. The questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: So how long were you questioned?

MS MOKOENA: I think I was questioned three, if not four, days.

CHAIRPERSON: You were questioned for three to four days?

MS MOKOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And who was doing the questioning?

MS MOKOENA: Many people asked me questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these people questioning you in their capacity as members of the ANC?

MS MOKOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Hlombani there as chairperson of the ANC at that time?

MS MOKOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And was this questioning also joined in by the members of the community at large, not necessarily those who had positions or offices in the leadership of the local ANC?

MS MOKOENA: People came but they were chased out of this meeting, but some were selected to be part.

CHAIRPERSON: Some of the members of the community were selected to be part?

MS MOKOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As a result of this enquiry, were you punished in any way?

MS MOKOENA: No, I was not punished in any way.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, were the other girls who were questioned with you punished?

MS MOKOENA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the outcome of the enquiry insofar as charges that had been levelled against you were concerned?

MS MOKOENA: There is a certain Mr Ndlapo who was present. I donít know whether he was vice to Hlombani, but I know him to be a senior as well. When our case ended, he mentioned in the meeting that he was washing his hands just like Pilato did. He told us that he was not going to get involved at all because we were not, he did not see anything wrong with us.

CHAIRPERSON: In your earlier testimony you also stated that you understand that investigations were carried out, in connection with this enquiry that you had to attend.

MS MOKOENA: Which people conducted the investigation?

CHAIRPERSON: Thatís what I want to find out. Your earlier testimony was that you were questioned about your association with your boyfriend who was a policeman and you were told that you knew that policemen were not wanted in the township because they were associated with the IFP. You responded that you did not think your boyfriend was associated with the IFP because he was with you most of the time. You then said they understood and carried out investigations.

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying they carried out investigations? What investigation or investigations, to your knowledge, were carried out?

MS MOKOENA: What I meant must they must have investigated to confirm what I told them. Because they discovered that there was no such.

CHAIRPERSON: They discovered that there was no such what? That your boyfriend was not associated with the IFP? They were satisfied.

MS MOKOENA: Yes, they were satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said that?

MS MOKOENA: Itís Mr Ndlapo.

CHAIRPERSON: He specifically said he was satisfied that your boyfriend was not associated with the IFP?

MS MOKOENA: He said to me we are satisfied with your explanation of how you conduct your life in your township. That was the explanation I gave them about my boyfriend and how we lived together. He was satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: He said this during the enquiry, and he did not say it privately to you?

MS MOKOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair. I donít know whether the witness did answer to your questions as whether she knows if other persons were punished as well. Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, I note that the time is twenty five to twelve. I think it important to afford the witness an opportunity to have a short break. So weíll take a five minute adjournment.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

ELSIE MOKOENA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Thabethe.

EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: (cont) Thank you Madam Chair. Ms Mokoena, still on the question of the enquiry that took place in 1992. Was Hapile also present at this enquiry?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: What was she charged with?

MS MOKOENA: She was not charged.

MS THABETHE: No, what I mean is why was she there? Why was she there with you?

MS MOKOENA: Because she was our friend. She was our friend.

MS THABETHE: Do you know how she got there? In your evidence you say you were called to come there. Do you know how she got there? Was she also called?

MS MOKOENA: Yes, she was also called.

MS THABETHE: Do you know who called her?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Who?

MS MOKOENA: Fish.

MS THABETHE: So was she questioned?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: About what?

MS MOKOENA: Hapile was questioned about she was our friend, in other words she was always seen in our company.

MS THABETHE: When you say in our company, who are you referring to? Itís yourself and who?

MS MOKOENA: Sometimes she would be with me, at time she would be with Meme.

MS THABETHE: Was Meme also there?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: What was she questioned about?

MS MOKOENA: Are you referring to Meme?

MS THABETHE: Yes.

MS MOKOENA: She was questioned about the cars that would be seen at her home.

MS THABETHE: What kind of cars?

MS MOKOENA: The Cortinas, Ford Cortinas.

MS THABETHE: No but what Iím saying is why was she questioned about the house and the cars that would be at her house?

MS MOKOENA: They questioned her because those cars belonged to members of the IFP.

MS THABETHE: And what was her response?

MS MOKOENA: She responded by saying yes there was one among them whom she had a relationship with.

MS THABETHE: What was the outcome of Hapileís questioning on that day?

MS MOKOENA: The decision was general.

MS THABETHE: What was the decision?

MS MOKOENA: That we can be free and leave as normal.

MS THABETHE: After you had been questioned, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can you leave that aspect. The decision was general that you could be free and leave as normal. Prior to that enquiry had you not been living a normal life?

MS MOKOENA: What Iím trying to explain is, yes we lived normal in the township. Meme, there were cars that frequented Memeís home and it was rumoured in the township that she was a member of the IFP. Now this person was actually referring to the freedom. He referred to, he said we should to live free in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand that to mean that insofar as Meme was concerned she could continue to see him, that visitors of the persons who were driving the many cars that had been seen parked outside her home, that she could continue with a relationship with a person she had admitted that she was a member of the IFP.

MS MOKOENA: He was not referring to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, let me understand you better. To what was he referring?

MS MOKOENA: He heard from Meme that she was going out with that, Memo advanced reasons why she was going out with that person. She told him that she did not know that these were members of the I, of Inkatha, and these people were not yet known that they were members of the IFP. I only knew them to be car stealers.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean car hijackers?

INTERPRETER: Car thieves, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Car thieves. You may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair. After the questioning, or after the enquiry, did you continue to see your boyfriend, the policeman?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, thereís a problem with the sound. The microphones are on but the interpreters canít get anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Probably thatís because Ms Mokoena had her had covered over hers. Can you just keep your hands away from this portion of the instrument.

MS MOKOENA: I canít hear ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Can you hear us now?

INTERPRETER: The problems seems to be with the box inside the booth.

MR LAX: Have you sorted it out now?

INTERPRETER: Itís sorted out Madam Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: Can you hear me?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

MR LAX: Please continue.

MS THABETHE: Thank you. My question was, after the enquiry did you stay with your boyfriend?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: For how long thereafter?

MS MOKOENA: Two years.

MS THABETHE: When you were attacked were you still staying with your boyfriend?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: The applicants have applied for amnesty. What is your response to that?

MS MOKOENA: I do not have any forgiveness for them.

MS THABETHE: Why?

MS MOKOENA: Even if I forgive them and they get amnesty, who knows, they might come after me and kill me.

MS THABETHE: So are you saying the reason for not accepting, or rather, the reason for you opposing is that you are scared they are going to come after you?

CHAIRPERSON: Thatís not correct Ms Thabethe. You only addressed the question of whether she was forgiving them or not, which is not the basis of either granting or refusing amnesty.

MS THABETHE: May I should rephrase ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The point , get to the point.

MS THABETHE: My instruction Ms Mokoena is that you are opposing their application for amnesty. Can you tell this Committee why you are opposing their application for amnesty?

MS MOKOENA: I am here to tell the Committee that I do not forgive these people.

MS THABETHE: Is that all?

MS MOKOENA: Yes. I do not forgive them. Should it happen that they are, they get free, they might come and finish me off.

MS THABETHE: What, would you say in, what they did was, you think was political?

MS MOKOENA: I do not think so.

MS THABETHE: Why do you say that?

MS MOKOENA: In their application they alleged that we were members of the IFP. It was common that if you are a member of the IFP your house would be burned and you would be killed immediately. I was not killed immediately when it was rumoured around the township that I was going out with a policeman and that I was a spy, and my home wasnít burned.

MS THABETHE: Regarding what they have said, the evidence that they have given, would you say they had told the whole truth to the Amnesty Committee about what happened that day, on the 15th of August 1993?

MS MOKOENA: Yes, they told the truth, and some way they told lies.

MS THABETHE: What do you mean they told lies? Which lies did they tell?

MS MOKOENA: About the information that they sought from the deceased, and that she was involved in the Boipatong massacre. That is not true. I know the deceased was not present during that massacre. She was in gaol. She would have never told them lies.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair I have no further questions. Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Moloisane do you have any questions to put to Ms Mokoena?

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases this Committee, Madam Chair, I do have questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE: Ms Mokoena, you said John Radebe and one Godfrey abducted, actually Sissy told you that John Radebe and on Godfrey abducted her, and went to sleep with her. Is that correct

MS MOKOENA: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: My instructions are that there is only one Godfrey, namely Godfrey Shiya, who is a friend of John Radebe. Are you also referring to this Godfrey Shiya?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you yourself bear any knowledge as to the whereabouts of, as to, let me put it this way Madam Chair.

Do you yourself bear any knowledge as to where Godfrey Shiya was during the incident that Sissy was telling you about?

MS MOKOENA: Godfrey was around the township, I am sure, yes.

MS MOLOISANE: I put it to you that during that time Godfrey Shiya was away. He was actually out of the country. He was at a place known as Maputswa in Lesotho. What is your comment thereon?

MS MOKOENA: That is not true.

MS MOLOISANE: It is also my instruction that Godfrey Shiya had left the country early in 1992, and only returned in January, early in 1993. What do you say?

MS MOKOENA: That is not true.

MS MOLOISANE: It is also my instruction that there is documentary proof in the form of a passport belonging to this Godfrey Shiya, that can be produced to prove that he was not in the country at that stage. What can you, do you say?

(gap between tapes)

MS MOLOISANE: Did you ever see Godfrey Shiya in Sebokeng during period, between early 1992 and early 1993?

MR LAX: Sorry, Ms Moloisane, if youíve, if your instructions deal with a passport, surely youíve got specific dates?

MS MOLOISANE: Mr Lax my instruction is that the said person, Godfrey Shiya, who is present here today, he is actually not sure as to the exact dates.

MR LAX: Well then how can you put it to this witness if heís not sure?

MS MOLOISANE: He is not sure as to the exact date but he is sure that it was early in 1992 when he left the country, and he is also sure that he returned, he spent almost a whole year in Lesotho and only returned in January, early in 1993, but he does have documentary evidence in the form of the passport, which, if this Committee needs, he will be in a position to produce.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, I understand.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Obviously he didnít know that he would be implicated so he couldnít have come with his passport today. Had he known he probably would have been able to. Proceed.

MS MOLOISANE: The second applicant, John Radebe, bears no knowledge of this incident that Sissy told you about. What is your comment thereon?

MS MOKOENA: He knows it.

MS MOLOISANE: Did Sissy tell you if she laid any charges against Radebe and his friends?

MS MOKOENA: They were threatened, that is why they did not lay charges. That was after they took them and slept with them. They did not lay charges.

MS MOLOISANE: I put it to you that Sissy never laid any charges against John.

MR LAX: She said she didnít lay charges. Sheís already said that no charges were laid. She has already said no charges were laid. So, itís no point putting it to her, sheís agreed with you that no charges were laid.

MS MOLOISANE: No, I want to tell her the reason why no charges were laid against John Radebe and his friend.

MR LAX: Please continue. Sorry I just thought you were going to be putting it to her that no charges were laid, as opposed to the reason why no charges were laid.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct). You may proceed.

MS MOLOISANE: My instruction is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What is wrong with the microphone.

MR LAX: She keeps switching hers on and it switches yours off.

CHAIRPERSON: Canít it operate simultaneously? Itís better that way because I may actually want to intervene while she is talking.

(pause for adjustment of microphones)

MS MOLOISANE: My instruction is that no charges were ever laid against them because no such incident ever took place. What is your comment thereon?

MS MOKOENA: I agree no charges were laid. They did not go and lay charges. And itís because they were threatened.

MS MOLOISANE: And it is also my instruction that Sissy did not tell you the truth. All that she told you was not the truth concerning that incident, or the alleged incident.

MS MOKOENA: Sissy would not start such a topic for no reason.

MS MOLOISANE: Now during 1991 were you not thirteen years of age? Were you not thirteen years old?

MS MOKOENA: Yes, I was.

MS MOLOISANE: And it was during that period that you say you were staying with your boyfriend, Johannes Masime. Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: That is so, get to the point. What is it that?

MS MOLOISANE: Now my instruction is that during that time you were too young and you did not stay with any boyfriend at your home. Ms Moloisane we are here to deal with offences which are politically motivated and not to deal with how people conducted themselves morally. Whether one decides to stay with a boyfriend when she is twelve years of age or eight years of age it is none of our concern. I donít know what would be the probative value of that kind of evidence that you are seeking to elicit from Ms Mokoena. How she decides to conduct her sexual life, it is not our concern here.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair. Now letís go to the incident when one Skosana visited your home. Is it not so that this Skosana that you have referred this Committee to was one of the unit commanders in Zone 12 Sebokeng? Is that not so?

MS MOKOENA: I knew him to be a comrade, whether he was involved in units I do not know.

MS MOLOISANE: Now I put it to you that Skosana was in fact a unit commander of one of the SDUís in Zone 12. Now why did you flee when this Skosana asked your granny about your whereabouts?

MS MOKOENA: I ran away because I knew what he was doing in the township.

MS MOLOISANE: But you knew him to be an ANC member. Is that not so?

MS MOKOENA: Yes. He was an ANC member, but he was notorious, even though he was an ANC.

MS MOLOISANE: It is my instruction that Skosana came to your home after he had learned about your involvement, or alleged involvement, with IFP men. What do you say?

MS MOKOENA: I do not know the reasons why he came to me. I only ran away because I know that he was not choosy. He just killed.

MS MOLOISANE: I further put it to you that the reason why you fled through the window was because you knew that you were one of the IFP spies and that he would question you about it. What is your comment thereon?

MS MOKOENA: That is not true. Skosana took girls and slept with them. He would come to your home, abduct you, and sleep with you. I ran because, had he found the two of us, he would have killed the policeman, take me, used me, and killed me afterwards.

MS MOLOISANE: Where was your friend Johannes Masime at that stage?

MS MOKOENA: He was working night shift.

MS MOLOISANE: So if I understand you well, the comrades, or the ANC members, knew where to find Johannes Masime. They knew that he would be at your home if they wanted him, is that not so?

MS MOKOENA: Which people?

MS MOLOISANE: ...(indistinct)

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: In other words, if they wanted him because of his being a policeman, they wouldn't have had, or they wouldn't have encountered any problems in locating him. Is that not correct?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Now you told this Committee that most of the time you were with Hapile.

MR LAX: She said most of the time Hapile was with her. Just a difference in emphasis.

MS MOLOISANE: Most of the time, Hapile was with you.

MS MOKOENA: Yes, we would have time together.

MS MOLOISANE: Now if that is the case, how did it happen that you not be arrested when Hapile was arrested?

MS THABETHE: Objections.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what are you objecting about?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair I think it was the evidence of Ms Mokoena that Hapile was staying elsewhere at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Let Ms Mokoena respond to that. She will be able to do so.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.

MS MOKOENA: I was not arrested because in 1992 I was pregnant and I was staying at home and Hapile and them stayed where they were arrested.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, my instruction is that you were never targeted by the SDUs or by the comrades, because of your affair with, your love affairs with a policeman, Johannes Masime. You were never targeted because of your involvement, or because of your love affair with Johannes Masime.

MS MOKOENA: Let them explain then why they targeted me.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes, I'm still coming to that. It is my instruction that you were targeted, you and Hapile Ndumo were targeted because you were IFP spies.

MS MOKOENA: Those were hallucinations.

MS MOLOISANE: Is it not so that your boyfriend Johannes Masime was never at any stage attacked by the comrades or by the ANC people or members in the township?

MR LAX: That's been her evidence to date. He's never been attacked. He continued to live with her even after this incident.

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct Mr Lax. The reason why I'm highlighting this is because I want to further put it to her that the reason for her attack was simply not because Johannes Masime was a policeman, and that is why Johannes Masime was himself never attacked by anybody, despite his staying in the township.

MR LAX: Your clients have both said they didn't know Masime. Your clients have both said in their testimony that they didn't know who Johannes Masime was. So how can they even begin to put such a proposition to this witness? They didn't know who the man was. You understand? That was their evidence. They never heard of him before. So, they're in no position to say anything about him, and you're therefore in no position to put anything about him to them, other than in the most general of ideas.

MS MOLOISANE: The reason why I am putting this question is because Mr Bonga Khumalo stated that he was aware that the witness, that Elsie Mokoena had an affair with a policeman and he categorically stated that he was not attacked. She, I mean, was not targeted because of her love affair with a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well continue to put it to her, though you've already done that, and she has already said if that is what they are saying they are hallucinating. You may continue to do so.

MS MOLOISANE: Ms Mokoena, do you agree with me that if there was anything wrong in you being in love with a policeman surely that policeman would have been attacked as well?

MS MOKOENA: Yes. If it was a mistake to go out with a policeman, he could have been attacked as well. But then, there was no mistake in going out with a policeman.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you know a woman by the name, or a girl by the name of Ntombimbi, or did you know here?

MS MOKOENA: I do not know her personally. I've never seen her. I only know the name.

MS MOLOISANE: Was she not your friend.

MS MOKOENA: No.

MS MOLOISANE: But you have already told this Committee that Meme was your friend.

MS MOKOENA: Yes, Meme was my friend.

MS MOLOISANE: And you have already confirmed that Meme was often seen in cars. Is that not so?

CHAIRPERSON: Not seen in cars. That she did have a boyfriend who was driving a car and that boyfriend was an IFP member, but that when the relationship started she was not aware that he was an IFP member. She thought that person was a car thief. She initially knew the boyfriend as a car thief.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair. Ms Mokoena my instruction is further that you, Hapile and Meme were spying for the IFP. What do you say of that?

MS MOKOENA: They are lying.

CHAIRPERSON: Are your instructions also that they were spying for the IFP and also passing on information to the police? That is how I understood the basis of the motive that led to the killing, as stated by, in particular, Mr Radebe.

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it would be fair then to put both the reasons why they were target, that they were IFP spies as well as being, as well as passing on information to the police, obviously bearing in mind that she had a relationship with a policeman.

MS MOLOISANE: Ms Mokoena my instruction is that you, Hapile and Meme were spying for the IFP and you were also passing on information to them and to the police. What is your comment thereon?

MS MOKOENA: The spies could not live long in the township. If it was know that I was, Impimpi Hapile was one and Meme was one, we would have been killed long time ago.

MS MOLOISANE: You also told this Committee that you were aware the perception in the township, or the perception by people in the township that you were an IFP spy. Is that not so?

MS MOKOENA: That is so.

MS MOLOISANE: Was that the case with Hapile as well?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: And you also confirm that at some stage you appeared before the ANC I shall say disciplinary committee also. You were questioned at the ANC office or at that garage which was being used as the office.

MS MOKOENA: Yes, I agree.

MS MOLOISANE: And during those, during the questioning, you were, let me rephrase it this way. During that time you were extensively questioned about your involvement with the IFP, is that not correct?

MS MOKOENA: That is not correct.

MS MOLOISANE: Were you not questioned about being a friend of Meme who also had an affair with that IFP member?

MS MOKOENA: I was questioned.

MS MOLOISANE: Were you not being associated with the IFP's because of Meme's affair with that IFP member?

MS MOKOENA: No.

MS MOLOISANE: Was Stanley Gqiba not present at that time? Or let me put it this way, do you know Stanley Gqiba, a person by the name of Stanley Gqiba?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: He was one of the office bearers of the ANC in Sebokeng, is that not correct?

MS MOKOENA: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: I put it to you that the allegation, or before I come to that my lord.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Moloisane one of your questions has not been answered. You asked whether Stanley Gqiba was present, you didnít quite say when? It wasn't responded to by the witness.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you agree that this Stanley Gqiba was in fact present during the questioning?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Did he also question you on that day, or during that period.

MS MOKOENA: No.

MS MOLOISANE: I put it to you, and it is further my instruction, that you were questioned about your involvement in the, with the IFP. What is your comment thereon?

MS MOKOENA: No, I was not asked.

MS MOLOISANE: Were you also present when Hapile Ndumo was questioned?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: What was she questioned about?

MS MOKOENA: She was questioned of her relationship with Memo. She was asked whether when the cars arrive at Meme's place she would be present, and she was asked whether she had a friend as well, in that group of IFP men.

MS MOLOISANE: And what was her response?

MS MOKOENA: She said no. No.

MS MOLOISANE: You say, or let me put it this way Madam Chair, my instructions is further that you and Hapile were lashed and reprimanded for your, I mean after you were questioned at the ANC office there, or rather at the garage. What do you say about that?

MS MOKOENA: Those are their hallucinations.

MS MOLOISANE: Now let's go to the events of the 15th of August 1993. You told this Committee that, when John Radebe called you, you thought that you, they were going to rape you, is that not so?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: But did you not know that they were SDU members, that John Radebe was an SDU member?

MS MOKOENA: I knew that they were comrades.

MS MOLOISANE: And the same applies to Abraham Mkhwanazi, is that no so?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, do you agree with me when I say that on that particular day they had, if they wanted to rape you they had ample chance to do that?

CHAIRPERSON: Just expand more so to enable her to respond properly. Tell her what ample time they had. Expand more on what you are putting to her, explain what you mean when you say they had ample time to rape her.

MS MOLOISANE: Let me start it this way Madam Chair. How long did it, or, I still have a difficulty. Let me rephrase it again. What time was it when you were called, you and Hapile were called at the tavern by John Radebe?

MS MOKOENA: It was something to five o'clock.

MS MOLOISANE: And what time was it when you were shot, you Elsie Mokoena, when you were shot at?

MS MOKOENA: It was about five past five, if not ten past five.

ADV BOSMAN: Is that really a fair question? Because what the witness testified was he asked her, the first time to come with him, she thought he would rape her. So is this a fair question, to say he had ample time? She did not testify that at the time that they were shot she thought they were going to rape her. She testified that when he first asked her at the tavern to come with him, she thought that they were going to rape her.

MS MOLOISANE: Then I will leave it then Committee Member. You say you know comrade Mabusa Mhlongo?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Did, do you know, or did you know at that stage what portfolio he had in the SDUs?

MS MOKOENA: No.

MS MOLOISANE: But you knew him to be an ANC member, is that not correct?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: My instruction is that comrade Mabusa Mhlongo had issued an order to John Radebe that he should go and apprehend you and Hapile, wherever they saw you. Do you have any comment thereon?

MS MOKOENA: I do not know. I was not present when an order was made.

MS MOLOISANE: So you are not in a position to can dispute that whatever John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi or Abraham Mkhwanazi did on that particular day was in execution of orders that had already been issued, not so? You are not in a position to ...(indistinct).

MS MOKOENA: I would not have a reason to dispute that.

MS MOLOISANE: My instruction is that there was in fact an order that had been issued by comrade Mhlongo, that you and Hapile be apprehended wherever you were to be seen, and that you should be killed, as you were classified as ...(indistinct).

MS MOKOENA: I don't know, I don't know whether Mabusa said, let me say I don't know.

MS MOKOENA: That is why ...(intervention).

MR LAX: She's answered this already. Please, you're going over it for the third time now.

MS MOLOISANE: I've no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Moloisane. Ms Thabethe do you have any re-examination emanating from Ms Moloisane's questioning?

MS THABETHE: Yes Madam Chair, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: When Skosana came to your house was it before of after the enquiry in 1992?

MS MOKOENA: It was after.

MS THABETHE: Would you say therefore he knew about the decision that was reached at the enquiry?

MS MOKOENA: He knew very well.

MS THABETHE: Why do you think he knew?

MS MOKOENA: When a decision was taken about ourselves the house was full.

MS THABETHE: Was he there? Did you see him there?

MS MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: When he came to your house, that is Mr Skosana, did he say why he wanted you and your boyfriend?

MS MOKOENA: He refused to advise reasons.

MS THABETHE: Is it also true that when you were called to the enquiry you were found not guilty?

MS MOKOENA: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: And it's also you evidence that, earlier on that you were told to go on as living, and to live as normal?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe I am going to disallow your line of re-examination. You are supposed to re-examine on anything that came out as a result of Ms Moloisane's questioning. I have allowed you already a great amount of latitude. You are questioning Ms Mokoena on issues that have long been traversed. With regard to when Skosana came to her house, whether it was before or after, her, Ms Mokoena's evidence has been crystal clear on that issue. Mr Skosana came in June 1992, and the enquiry took place in March 1992. Nothing new came out during Ms Moloisane's cross-examination. I will not allow this line of re-examination. If you still have anything new that has come out as a result of Ms Moloisane's cross-examination, proceed to do so. Do not repeat the ground that has already been traversed.

MS THABETHE: As the Chair pleases, I am indebted to you. One last question. Was Mabusa present at the enquiry in 1992?

CHAIRPERSON: The enquiry was not in 1992 according to Ms Mokoena's evidence. That enquiry took place in March 1992 and yes, the house was full and Mr Skosana was amongst those.

MS THABETHE: I said Mr Mabusa Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry. You may proceed to answer Ms Mokoena, that question.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.

MS MOKOENA: I did not see Mabusa.

CHAIRPERSON: Save for the correction that the enquiry on your testimony took place in March 1992, is it not so?

MS MOKOENA: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: That was my last question Madam Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe. Mr Lax do you have any questions to put to Ms Mokoena?

MR LAX: No questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mokoena we wish to thank you for having had the courage to come and give your testimony to us after what you have been through. We hope you will be present during the remainder of the proceedings, because it is in your interests, and we hope this process will go a long way in trying to address the pain that we know you were subjected to. We thank you very much ma'am. We also appreciate the courage that you have shown during your viva voce evidence. We know it is not an easy thing for a person who has been subjected to any kind of atrocity that we have to deal with as an Amnesty Committee, to be able to contain herself when she gives evidence, because the mere giving of evidence revives the terrible memories, that I am sure not only you but our country would like to have as a closed page. We thank you. You may step down now.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, you had earlier on indicated that the relatives of Ms Hapile Ndumo also wanted to testify in respect of the incident that we are currently dealing with. Is that still your intention, and if so, who do you wish to call?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, it was my instruction that they want to, the mother wants to says something to the Committee members and to the public, so I would proceed to call her, and in the meantime, can I be excused for two minutes?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we excuse you, do you feel this would be an appropriate time to adjourn, or would you prefer that she comes in and gives her testimony before we can adjourn for lunch?

MS THABETHE: I would prefer if she gives testimony before we adjourn for lunch. I will be strictly two minutes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a two minute adjournment. I hope everyone has his or her watch on to time Ms Thabethe.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, your two minutes having long expired I need you to proceed. You are going to call one of the parents of Ms Hapile Ndumo, the deceased.

MS THABETHE: Yes Madam Chair. I'll proceed to call Mrs Ndumo, who wants to say something to the Committee and to the public. Thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to lead her?

MS THABETHE: Yes I do.

MRS NDUMO: Do I have to take an oath?

CHAIRPERSON: It was explained that you'd like to say something to us, and we want to take an oath for that. And because you are the mother to the deceased, we saw it necessary to give you this opportunity and tell us what is in your heart. We now give you this opportunity.

MRS NDUMO: I wanted to tell this Committee how I found the body of my child. She was shot four times and the letters of Inkatha were cut into her thigh, and she was dragged from where, from the original place of killing. I want to tell this Committee that I'm deeply hurt at the loss of my child. She would be working for me today, doing everything. I am old. She is dead. They are here seeking amnesty. I do not forgive someone who wronged me. I do not forgive anyone, because by forgiving them I would be sending a message of, yes, you helped me by killing my daughter. I do not have any forgiveness. I don't have anyone to draw water for me. I don't have anyone to iron for me. And to come here and say thank you, you killed my daughter, no ways. I have nothing further to say.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you for your words and they clearly indicate how deeply you hurt. We want to tell you that the process that we are busy with, it's a process that is trying to see whether the people who killed had a political motive. If we discover that they killed because of politics, under the Act then we are obliged to give them amnesty. That's what we can do as a Committee. And we cannot force people who lost their loved ones to forgive. It has to come from them. I do understand what you are saying, and we thank you.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe do you still have further witnesses to call in opposition to the applicants' applications?

MS THABETHE: No Madam Chair, that concludes my evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, where do we go from here?

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, it has come to my attention that comrade Mabusa Mhlongo has arrived. I have had the opportunity of consulting with him, and I am therefore of the intention to call him to come and testify, and I therefore withdraw my earlier request that he be sent for psychological or psychiatric assessment.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we will then hesitatingly accede to your request, and we'll allow you therefore to call Mr Mabusa Mhlongo. Ms Moloisane are you in a position to call Mr Mabusa Mhlongo now?

MS MOLOISANE: Correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What language does he speak?

MS MOLOISANE: Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please stand up Mr Mhlongo?

Give us your full names.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may sit.

EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE: Mr Mhlongo, during 1991 where were you?

MR MHLONGO: I was in exile.

MS MOLOISANE: When did you come back into the country?

MR MHLONGO: 1992 in February.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, when you came back into the country, is it not so that there was violence in the Vaal townships, is that no so?

MR MHLONGO: That is true, there was violence.

MS MOLOISANE: Now tell this Committee what did you do or in what kind of activities were you involved in immediately after your return.

MR MHLONGO: I became a member of the ANC youth league. I served in the committee as the secretary, and I was the unit commander for the underground structure.

MS MOLOISANE: How old were you by then? 1992.

MR MHLONGO: I was nineteen years old.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes, proceed.

MR MHLONGO: When I arrived in the country there was a lot of violence. I had to get information from the comrades as to who belonged where, and I got information that Hapile Ndumo, Meme and a group of them were now under the IFP. As the member of the unit, and as the commander, I managed to investigate this thing thoroughly. Now there was this unit that was under my command, and during the patrols a certain vehicle approached. It was white in colour. There were two boys inside and three girls. Hapile was among them.

MS MOLOISANE: Now when was this?

MR MHLONGO: It was in 1992 after June.

MS MOLOISANE: Now you say you had this information. From who did you get the information, about Hapile Ndumo and Meme and other girls?

MR MHLONGO: The ANC leadership. The leadership of the youth league.

MS MOLOISANE: Now after ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Can you be specific? Who in the leadership of the youth league gave him that information?

MR MHLONGO: I did not understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Who in the leadership of the ANC youth league gave the information about Hapile and her group?

MR MHLONGO: It was the chairperson, Stanley.

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, the interpreters request the witness to speak a little bit louder.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo, what you say must be heard by the interpreters, and we are going to request you to speak louder. Do you understand?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: They have to hear what you say because we are writing down what you say, we write it in English.

MR MHLONGO: My apologies Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And don't be fast when you speak. You're still okay now.

MS MOLOISANE: Proceed Mr Mhlongo.

MR MHLONGO: While I was in the patrol my unit was controlling the area called LTA.

MS MOLOISANE: Where is that area?

MR MHLONGO: That is Zone 12 Extension.

MS MOLOISANE: Proceed.

MR MHLONGO: I was at the main entrance.

MS MOLOISANE: With whom were you?

MR MHLONGO: I was by myself.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say your unit was patrolling, do you mean you alone were patrolling?

MR MHLONGO: The unit was patrolling inside the township and I was at the entrance. A white vehicle approached with two boys inside.

MS MOLOISANE: Proceed.

MR MHLONGO: And there were girls at the back, more than three. Hapile was one of them. I took out a hand grenade, and I threw it inside. They took it out through the window. It did not explode.

MS MOLOISANE: Now why did you throw a hand grenade into the car in which they were travelling?

MR MHLONGO: It was a car belonging to the Mdwembes and at that time a Mdwembe was to be killed when seen.

MS MOLOISANE: Who was the owner of that car?

MR MHLONGO: Hanta Ndlovu was the driver of the car. I do not know who the owner was.

MS MOLOISANE: Who is this Hanta Ndlovu?

MR MHLONGO: He was one of the Inkathaís SPUís.

MS MOLOISANE: Proceed.

MR MHLONGO: And they sped off, leaving the township.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, what was wrong in, with this Hanta Ndlovu being a member of the SPU? Inkatha SPU?

MR MHLONGO: There is something wrong there. It's because he came to the township to kill.

MS MOLOISANE: How did you know that he had come to the township to kill?

MR MHLONGO: Their operations as to come into the township and kill, and kidnap the girls.

MS MOLOISANE: Were you saying that from prior experience, or was that what you were suspecting them of coming to do?

MR MHLONGO: It is something that they had done earlier, in other townships.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you implying that they had not done that in your township. When you say that it was something they had done in other townships?

MR MHLONGO: They had not done it in my township before.

CHAIRPERSON: What period are we talking about here? When did you see this Hanta Ndlovu at the entrance of LTA? Which year?

MR MHLONGO: It was in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember the month?

MR MHLONGO: I do not.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can you recall whether it was immediately after you had set up your unit? You came back in 1992. How long after you had returned did you become a commander? You've been able to tell us that you came back in February 1992, when then did you become a commander of your unit?

MR MHLONGO: I became the commander of the unit after the units were thoroughly established.

CHAIRPERSON: We want to know an estimation of when you became a commander. How long did it take for the units to be thoroughly established, as you say?

MR MHLONGO: I do not remember how long.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, to your knowledge, did this incident when you see Hanta Ndlovu, did it take place towards the end of 1992, did it take place mid-1992, or are you unable to estimate was it summer, was it winter, was it raining, was it cold, did you have to put on a jersey?

MR MHLONGO: I would not exactly explain because I always had my lumber jacket on.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let me try and assist you. You know that in June 1992 there was a massacre that is now notoriously known as Boipatong massacre. Can you remember that ?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: When you spotted the two boys and the three girls in this white car, was it before the massacre, or was it after the massacre?

MR MHLONGO: It was before the Boipatong massacre.

CHAIRPERSON: It was before the Boipatong massacre?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, you said these, I mean it had never happened in your township, that is such attacks had never been carried in your township. In which townships had they taken place?

MR MHLONGO: Zone 7, know as Chief Ntuli.

MS MOLOISANE: Are you referring to Zone 7 Sebokeng?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: So, if I understand you well, what you are saying is actually that it had never happened to your Zone? Not to your township, because you are talking here of Sebokeng township.

MR MHLONGO: I was referring to our Zone, but it had happened in Sebokeng.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo, you see when you refer to a township, then it's Sebokeng. If you want to refer to Zone, refer to it as Zone.

MR MHLONGO: My apologies Chairlady.

CHAIRPERSON: If you say so, we would think that you don't know what you are talking about.

MR MHLONGO: My apologies Chairperson. This thing had not happened in our Zone, it happened in other Zones.

CHAIRPERSON: You said this thing had not happened before in your township, and you said just after that it happened in Zone 7. Are you now saying it happened in other Zones?

Apparently Mr Mhlongo is not getting any translation of what I am saying.

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, it's because the Chairperson is speaking in Sotho, so he hears directly the Chairperson and the interpreters are going out in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, there is something wrong with, but what I'm telling Mr Mhlongo, that little box will help you to hear me. Don't keep it in your hand, leave it on the table. Don't even block it with your hand. Can I repeat what I was saying?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Your earlier evidence said these things, that is the killing of people and kidnapping of girls by the IFP people never happened in the township, they only happened in Zone 7, and you now changing. You're saying they happened in other zones. We want you to give us a clear evidence that we can write.

MR MHLONGO: Thank you Chairperson. Such a thing had never happened in our Zone, but it happened in other zones.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Now after that vehicle sped off, what happened?

MR MHLONGO: I called the members of my unit.

MS MOLOISANE: Were the applicants in this case, Fani Mkhwanazi and John Radebe amongst your unit members, or not?

MR MHLONGO: At that time Fani Mkhwanazi was a member of my unit.

MS MOLOISANE: And John Radebe?

MR MHLONGO: He was in another district. He had not come to my district.

MS MOLOISANE: You may proceed.

MR MHLONGO: I then told my unit that it should be very vigilant. I told them that I did not want to hear anything reported to me about Zone 12. I told them that anything that would happen in Zone 12, they will carry that responsibility.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes, you may proceed.

MR MHLONGO: They listened and they kept watch at all times, until morning. And when we met again in the morning I gave them orders that should it happen they see Hapile Ndumo they should kill her, together with her friend Mandayi.

MS MOLOISANE: Who is Mandayi?

MR MHLONGO: Mandayi is the survivor.

MS MOLOISANE: Are you referring to Elsie Mokoena, the one present in the hall?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: No when you gave these orders what specific order did you give? Did you specify what had to be done to them?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you answer Mr Mhlongo, what do you want to elicit from him? He has already said he gave an order that they should kill Hapile and her friend Mandayi who is Elsie, when they saw them.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair.

MR MHLONGO: It was in the morning when I dismissed them to go and prepare themselves for other activities of the day, and I went to go and investigate the whereabouts of Hapile and I discovered that she was not around Zone 12 together with her friend Mandayi. Mandayi was also not around Zone 12. It took quite some time before I could assemble, before I could meet them, the year and that, before I could meet them, and I met Hapile in town.

MS MOLOISANE: That was in 1993 then?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: When in 1993 was it?

MR MHLONGO: It was around May. I could not talk to her because she was busy with an operation, harassing the community.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that? I don't understand this aspect of your evidence. You met Hapile in town.

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You could not speak to her.

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You wanted to talk to her?

MR MHLONGO: It was my wish to talk to her.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, why couldn't you talk to her?

MR MHLONGO: I could not speak to her because she was among a group of boys who referred to me as Umvembe, upon seeing me.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these boys known to you?

MR MHLONGO: I knew some of them.

CHAIRPERSON: And who were they?

MR MHLONGO: Oupa Smith.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MHLONGO: Dondo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MHLONGO: Dada.

CHAIRPERSON: Mm.

MR MHLONGO: Jabu. Those are the ones I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know them?

MR MHLONGO: Jabu once stayed, once lived in Zone 12. Dada once lived in Zone 12. Oupa Smith lived in Zone 13. I just knew Dondo because he was pointed at. I was told there is Dondo.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say the ones lives in Zone 12, when you met them where were they living, did you know?

MR MHLONGO: At that time they lived in Kwamadala.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair. If you say they were busy harassing people, what were they actually doing?

MR MHLONGO: They assaulted people from the township who came to buy groceries in town, and those groceries would be taken from them. And that actually changed my heart. I became more cruel.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane I think this is a most appropriate time to break for lunch. I notice the time is two o'clock.

MS MOLOISANE: I do not have any objection Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a lunch adjournment of thirty minutes, and we'll reconvene at two thirty.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: (s.u.o)

MR MHLONGO: Thank you Chair.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair it's Ms Moloisane still, leading evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: That's true. I'm sorry about that oversight Ms Moloisane. You are still ...(indistinct)

EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE: (Cont)

As it pleases you Madam Chair. Madam Chair will you, will the Committee, will you read the last statement of Mr Mhlongo so that he can continue from there?

MR LAX: Yes he said that this occurrence where he had met Hapile with these people in town, had actually changed his heart and he became most cruel. That's how it was translated.

MS MOLOISANE: You may proceed Mr Mhlongo.

MR MHLONGO: Thank you Chair. Yes, this was not acceptable to me, and in 1993 around May I co-opted John Radebe and I took him to Sasolburg for crash courses. That's where he received his training up, and when he came back I gave him the two IC rank. And I gave him an order, I said to him, "...Radebe should you meet Hapile and Elsie, kill them."

MS MOLOISANE: Did you explain to Radebe why he had to kill them?

MR MHLONGO: I was not supposed to explain as a commander, I was just supposed to tell him what to do.

MS MOLOISANE: Where was Abraham Mkhwanazi at that time when you gave the orders to Radebe?

MR MHLONGO: It was the unit as a whole.

MS MOLOISANE: You may proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Before he does that. Mr Radebe was co-opted by you in May 1993, and taken to Sasolburg for his crash course. When did he come back from Sasolburg?

MR MHLONGO: If I remember well he came back in June. It was a one month course.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did you give Mr Radebe and the entire unit the order to kill Hapile and Elsie?

MR MHLONGO: It was after Mr Radebe passed his training. The unit he was supposed to be introduced to the unit and give them his rank.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that in June?

MR MHLONGO: It was in the middle of June. I do not remember the date.

CHAIRPERSON: You are saying the order was not given to Radebe alone, it was given to the members of the unit?

MR MHLONGO: Yes. That's what I'm saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was present amongst members of your unit when you gave that order?

MR MHLONGO: It was Mr Radebe, Fani Mkhwanazi Godfrey Shiya, Bongani Chansa, Sipho Tshabalala, Shakes, I do not know his surname, Bopipo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. The order was given to the entire members of your unit?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And they were to execute the order if anyone of them came across the two ladies in question?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, after you had given them the orders, what happened?

MR MHLONGO: Two months went by, if I'm not mistaken. On a Monday Bopipo came to me to report that an order had been carried out in that Hapile was dead, and the other one survived.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, what was you policy in relation to the carrying out of orders? Were the unit members expected to report back to you, was there any specific person who had to do that?

MR MHLONGO: The person who carried out an order is the accountable person.

MS MOLOISANE: In this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt please. The person who executed an order would have come to you, and that would be so irrespective of his rank? That is so, isn't it?

MR MHLONGO: Can you repeat your question, Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Your evidence was that a person who executed an order was accountable to you, and my question is, am I correct in therefore assuming that that person would be so accountable to you irrespective of rank, as long as he had executed your order?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: You say Bopipo then made the report to you, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: And Bopipo is Borman Ntjolo, is that correct? Is that the same person as Borman Ntjolo?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Did you investigate this after this report was made to you?

MR MHLONGO: Unfortunately I did not have time. The situation was tense and I had to be on the run.

MS MOLOISANE: Now you said you were the unit commander. Were you accountable to anyone or not?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: To whom were you accountable?

MR MHLONGO: It was commander action known as Bonga Khumalo.

MS MOLOISANE: Now when you issued this particular order, specific order that Hapile and Elsie should be killed, did you do that on your own or was it because of orders that you received from elsewhere?

MR MHLONGO: This had been issued out as a general order, and as a commander of the unit I also had authority to order somebody's death if it was necessary.

MS MOLOISANE: Is this your evidence that your

(GAP BETWEEN TAPES)

CHAIRPERSON: It is not his evidence. Don't lead him on that aspect.

MS MOLOISANE: As it please you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ask him who had issued ...(intervention)

MS MOLOISANE: Who had issued these general orders?

MR MHLONGO: I had explained that it was Bonga, commander Bonga Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlango you had not yet explained that, and I am listening to you as you give your evidence in Sotho. I can't even apportion blame to the translator. You had not yet said anything about the person who had issued the order. You may simply proceed to respond to questions put to you by Ms Moloisane and don't tell us about that which you have already said or not. Just answer the question without having to prefix anything to your responses.

MR MHLONGO: Thank you chair.

MS MOLOISANE: Now what did he say when he issued this command, this order?

MR MHLONGO: He issued out this order to the unit commanders and said should Hapile and them be seen anywhere they should be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, when was this general order issued by Mr Khumalo?

MR MHLONGO: It was after the SDUs were properly established.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, which was when? We know you came back in February 1992. When were the SDUs properly established?

MR MHLONGO: They were established around June, if I'm not mistaken, and that's when he issued out a general order.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. And let me repeat what you've said. The general order was to the effect that you as unit commander should kill Hapile and Elise when you saw them. And this an order that was given by Mr Khumalo to you as unit commanders, that's correct?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Now you have referred to it as a general order. Why do you say it was a general order?

MR MHLONGO: I'm saying it was a general order because their death sentence had already been made. Now as unit commanders of the four units we were supposed to know this message clearly.

MS MOLOISANE: Did this general order only concern Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena, or did it also cover other Imidwembe?

MR MHLONGO: The general order covered Imidwembe.

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't it been your evidence that the general order was that you should kill Elsie and Hapile? Is that not your evidence? I believe you may be correct. My note says that the general order was that you should kill Hapile and Elsie. It would appear that one of my colleagues has something different. What do you have?

...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed then Ms Moloisane, thank you. You can canvass.

MS MOLOISANE: Should he continue to clarify that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Please clarify that.

CHAIRPERSON: What did it mean when the order referred to Hapile and them?

MR LAX: You're looking a bit puzzled Mr Mhlongo. Do you understand the question?

MR MHLONGO: I do not understand it.

MR LAX: Let me explain it to you. You're being asked to elaborate on what you meant when you said, and just to give you the background, you were asked what were the specific words Bonga Khumalo told you, as commanders. Your answer was that he issued out this order to the unit commanders. He said, and then you quoted him, "...should you see Hapile and them, or should they be seen anywhere, they should be killed." Do you remember saying that ?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I remember.

MR LAX: Now the question is, what did you mean by using the words Hapile and them? Do you understand the question?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I understand the question.

MR LAX: Please explain.

MR MHLONGO: When I'm referring to Hapile and them I was referring to Hapile and the other Imidwembe that were present at that time. Hapile and Elsie included.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you understand to be the definition of Imidwembe?

MR MHLONGO: Those were the people to be killed when seen.

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat your answer in Sesotho and let the translator listen to you response in Sesotho properly.

MR MHLONGO: These were the people to be killed when seen, because if we don't kill them they were going to kill us.

MS MOLOISANE: But what kind of people were they?

MR MHLONGO: I do not understand your question, what kind of people were they.

MS MOLOISANE: We know they were Imidwembe. What does that mean?

MR MHLONGO: Are you referring to the word Imidwembe?

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct.

MR MHLONGO: Imidwembe means an enemy to us.

MS MOLOISANE: Now on what account did you classify Hapile and Elsie as enemies.

MR MHLONGO: They were enemies.

MR LAX: The question is, why did you consider them to be your enemies?

MR MHLONGO: I have explained already that I saw them harassing the community. It was my aims as well as my duty to protect the community, and it was my responsibility to see to it that the community was safe.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you know if ..(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose? Your evidence has not elicited anything about what Hapile and Elsie did. Your harassment that you are referring to has been in relation to the person, or to persons that you named Oupa Smith, Dondo, Dada, and that group. You did not in your evidence say how Elsie, other than having been seen in their company, harassed the community.

MR MHLONGO: My apologies. They harassed the community in the sense in that they were the ones who identified the community, the members of the communities, and they were the ones who pointed out the houses where these people lived. Ultimately those people died.

CHAIRPERSON: And your earlier evidence that Dada stayed, before he moved to Kwamadala Hostel, at Zone 12, and so did Jabu, you didn't know where Dondo stayed, and Oupa Smith stayed in Zone 13. Why would it have been necessary for Elsie and Hapile to identify people to be attacked by the IFP when in fact they were in the company of people who were familiar with your zone and were also familiar with the community in Zone 13, because they had before moving to Kwamadala Hostel been staying in those zones?

MR MHLONGO: Thank you chair. It is true they once lived in those zones, but they did not have information as to who the active members were. Now to know who the active members were, it was through them. And who was from outside the country, they knew through them. And we were in their hit list.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: And how did you know that you were in their hit list?

MR MHLONGO: I know it because we captured some of them and they told us the names that were at Kwamadala and the people who revealed those names.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this capture?

MR MHLONGO: It was during the hard times of violence. We kidnapped some of them in town and bring them to the township and give us information and killed them afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that this happened during the political turmoil in Sebokeng. I just need the precise period. Which month and which year did you capture people who were able to tell you that you were in the hit list?

MR MHLONGO: Thank you Chair. I have already alluded to the situation. You know, I've lost so many things. I do not remember when it was in the year. I can't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did that information come to your knowledge in 1993, or in 1992? You should be able to remember, we are dealing with a situation wherein you only came back into the country in February 1992. You are able to remember the precise month when you came back into the country, and when you established the SDUs. Surely did you capture these people whilst you were a commander of the SDU? Did this happen whilst you were in command?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, they were captured whilst I was still the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you were the commander in May, June 1992. That's when you became the commander.

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you were commander by the 15th of August 1993, is it not so?

MR MHLONGO: 15th of August 1992?

CHAIRPERSON: 1993.

MR MHLONGO: I was still the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Could this information has come to your attention after 1993, in 1994? I'm now talking about the hit list.

MR MHLONGO: It was late 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: You see now you are able to remember. You may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you Madam Chair. Now, during your period, the period when you were still a commander, did you ever have the opportunity of speaking to Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena?

MR MHLONGO: No.

MS MOLOISANE: Did you report to anybody after Bopipo or Bana Ntjolo had reported to you that Hapile had been killed and that Elsie had been injured?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: To whom did you report?

MR MHLONGO: I reported to Bonga Khumalo.

MS MOLOISANE: And when was that?

MR MHLONGO: It was after I dismissed Bopipo. We were at a very awkward position, close to the deceased's family.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this?

MR MHLONGO: It was on a Monday and the incident happened over the week-end.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the incident happen on a Sunday, and you were able to report to Mr Khumalo the next day, that being a Monday?

MR MHLONGO: I do not know whether the incident happened on Saturday or Sunday, but I reported on Monday.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you know one Maletsatsi Marumo?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I know her.

MS MOLOISANE: How do you know her?

MR MHLONGO: I once hid at her place.

CHAIRPERSON: He once hid?

INTERPRETER: He once used her place as a hideout.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair just before I proceed with my questions, I just want to inform the Committee that due to lateness of an hour I just want to cover the Maletsatsi incident as he was the commander then.

CHAIRPERSON: We noticed that.

MS MOLOISANE: Now why did you have to use Maletsatsiís home as a hideout?

MR MHLONGO: At that time she was the supporter of the ANC and we were school mates.

MS MOLOISANE: And when was that when you used her home as a hideout? The year?

MR MHLONGO: It was early 1993.

MS MOLOISANE: Did this Maletsatsi belong to any political party or not?

CHAIRPERSON: She has just said she was a supporter of the ANC.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We would be interested to know in which school they both attended.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair. Which school did you both attend?

MR MHLONGO: We were at Umpuluzi School.

CHAIRPERSON: In what standard were you?

MR MHLONGO: I was in standard six.

CHAIRPERSON: And in what standard was Maletsatsi?

MR MHLONGO: She was also in standard six.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you may proceed.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, how did it happen that you should seek hideout from Maletsatsiís home?

MR MHLONGO: It was because I was the present of Cosas at that time and she might have realised the treatment that I received from the white people. Each time they came to look for me I would run away and she told me that she had a house and I can come and stay with her.

MS MOLOISANE: Proceed. What happened after that incident?

MR MHLONGO: I lived with the comrades for quite a long time, and Maletsatsi lost control and she left us in the house, and we did not know her whereabouts. She came back after some time and she took some girls who lived around and she left with them. The disappeared for quite some time and only those girls would come back without her, and they told us then where they went to, and who Maletsatsi made them to meet.

MS MOLOISANE: Now after Maletsatsi had disappeared for some time did you see her again?

MR MHLONGO: I saw her dead.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see her, or you heard that she was dead?

MR MHLONGO: I saw her.

MS MOLOISANE: Now John Radebe is seeking amnesty for the killing of Maletsatsi. Do you know perhaps under what circumstances and why as Maletsatsi killed?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I know.

MS MOLOISANE: Tell this Committee.

MR MHLONGO: A decision was taken to eliminate Maletsatsi because the innocent girls were kidnapped and when they arrived at Kwamadala was, she was bossy, she would choose men for each girl. She was sort of a star, and I ended up issuing out an order that Maletsatsi be eliminated.

MS MOLOISANE: Was she still an ANC supporter when you issued this order?

INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not get the question.

MS MOLOISANE: Was Maletsatsi still an ANC supporter when you issued this order that she should be eliminated?

MR MHLONGO: No, she was no longer a supporter.

MS MOLOISANE: When did she fall out with the ANC? Do you know?

MR MHLONGO: I think I said she was a supporter. She never joined the ANC officially.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes, we know, so what I want to know is when did she fall out with the ANC, do you have first hand information on that?

MR MHLONGO: She fell out at the beginning of attendance of meetings in Kwamadala, because you would never gain entrance to Kwamadala if you were a member of the ANC.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, to whom did you issue this order? To whom was this order issued that Maletsatsi should be eliminated?

MR MHLONGO: I gave my two IC this order. He is John Radebe.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you issue this order to Radebe?

MR MHLONGO: I do not remember when, but it was in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: In what capacity did you issue that order?

MR MHLONGO: I issued out this order as a commander, and John Radebe resided close to Maletsatsi.

CHAIRPERSON: And was this when Mr Radebe was a member of the Zone 12 unit which you commanded?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, it is during that period.

CHAIRPERSON: Where exactly was this order issued? That is, a place.

MR MHLONGO: We were in Small Farm, close to Radebe's place.

CHAIRPERSON: With whom were you when this order was issued?

MR MHLONGO: I was with John Radebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there anybody else other than you and your second in command?

MR MHLONGO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you approximate again about the month in 1993 when this order was issued by you? Would that be early 93, would that be late 93? Come to our assistance.

MR MHLONGO: I would be misleading you if I have to mention the month. I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: But you remember that it was 93.

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you know Maletsatsi died?

MR MHLONGO: I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Maletsatsi died in June 1993. Does that assist you? Can you now place the approximate month when you issued the order in relation to when Maletsatsi died? She died in June '93.

MR MHLONGO: I do not remember, but it was before June when I issued out the order.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not in a position to give us a better approximation other than saying it was before June? You are the commander, you issued the order.

MR MHLONGO: Thank you Chair, yes, I issued out an order and I issued out orders on a daily basis, and I was working with many people. I do not remember when it was when I ordered Radebe to eliminate Maletsatsi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, was your order a specific order? Is it not so? It was to Mr Radebe to eliminate Maletsatsi. Is that not so? We are speaking about a specific order.

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it common practice for you as a commander to issue specific orders that involved a killing of women, particularly the ones that were once close to you, and once offered you a safe haven?

MR MHLONGO: These orders were not specific to, they were not directed to women. I issued out daily order regarding Imidwembe.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, how many orders related to women Imidwembe, that you remember yourself issuing?

MR MHLONGO: More than one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, prior to June '93, how many orders had you so issued which related to women Imidwembes?

MR MHLONGO: Two orders.

CHAIRPERSON: And this is June '93?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you now in a position to remember? Are you saying this was in June 1993?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, it was in June 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Why did you regard Maletsatsi as an Imidwembe simply because of her visit to Kwamadala?

MR LAX: We've asked you time and time again not to lead the witness. Now ask him the question why, that's fine. To provide him with the answer is not fine. Do you understand?

MS MOLOISANE: Mr Lax itís because he has already said he would take, go to Kwamadala.

MR LAX: That doesnít mean thatís the only reason why. Ask him what the reason is.

MS MOLOISANE: Why did you regard Maletsatsi as an Imidwembe?

MR MHLONGO: Because she had a lot of our information, and information that could have led to our deaths as well as those of our family members.

MR LAX: What are you reading there Mr Mhlongo? What are you reading there?

MR MHLONGO: I requested a piece of paper because I wanted to note some few things.

MR LAX: Youíre not noting anything. Youíre reading from that piece of paper. Please put it aside. Youíre supposed to be giving testimony here.

MS MOLOISANE: I ask you again, why did you regard her as an Imidwembe?

MR MHLONGO: Because she had a lot of our information and she was now in the camp of the killers.

CHAIRPERSON: What information did she have that would have been detrimental to you and members of your families?

MR MHLONGO: I mentioned that I slept at her place and she used to see our arms.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, when did you sleep at her place? I know when you attended school together.

MR MHLONGO: I slept at her place in '93.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall the month?

MR MHLONGO: I do not remember the month.

CHAIRPERSON: Could it have been in August '93?

MR MHLONGO: No. No.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it at the beginning of the year in '93?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, it was at the beginning of the year.

CHAIRPERSON: Why can't you approximate, when you are always asked to estimate the time and your first response is you can't remember? You don't make an effort to even give a wide approximation.

MR MHLONGO: ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Don't talk straight into it. Keep a bit further back. That's fine.

MR MHLONGO: It's because I do not want to give something that is not true. I want to tell you what was happening at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is why Ms Moloisane has asked you to give evidence. In order to be able to assist us. You are not much of an assistance if you can't tell us the month nor the year in relation to what you are testifying to. You are not much of any assistance to us. You must bear that in mind as you give your testimony. Proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: That is all Madam Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, you may proceed to put questions to Mr Mhlongo.

CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Thank you.

MS MOLOISANE: Excuse me Madam Chair, there is something that the witness has indicated that he would like to say.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you want to say Mr Mhlongo?

MR MHLONGO: At this moment I want to say whatever happened then, I am asking forgiveness on behalf of my unit. The situation and the present, or the then situation in politics led us to doing such things. Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not the one who is applying for amnesty. The applicants have already expressed their remorse in this regard. You are here to give evidence. We expect you to be of assistance, and we hope you will be of assistance, particularly in contextualising your evidence in relation to time. Thank you. Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: To your knowledge, Mr Mhlongo, on what basis were you made a commander of your unit?

MR MHLONGO: Because I received training from Umkhonto weSiswe.

MS THABETHE: You spoke about an incident, sorry when did you undergo through MK training?

MR MHLONGO: When I was in exile.

MS THABETHE: I mean when, like which year?

MR MHLONGO: It was in 1991.

MS THABETHE: With regard to the evidence that you've given, you spoke about the fact that you threw a hand grenade into a white car. Was Elsie present in that car?

MR MHLONGO: I do not remember whether Elsie was present in that car, but where Hapile was, Elsie would be there too.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't generalise Mr Mhlongo. Either you saw Elsie on that day, or you didn't see her. We don't want your speculation, we want what you saw and not what you thought because of what had previously happened, did you see Elsie on that day or didn't you see her?

MR MHLONGO: I did not see her.

MS THABETHE: Are you aware of any enquiry that took place regarding Hapile Ndumo and Elsie in your ANC offices?

MR MHLONGO: I do not understand your question.

MS THABETHE: Are you aware of any enquiry that took place with regard to Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena in your ANC offices?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Were you present at that enquiry?

MR MHLONGO: I was not present.

MS THABETHE: So what information did you have about the said enquiry?

MR MHLONGO: When the enquiry was made I was not present. I was not involved at all but it happened that I came into contact with those enquiries.

MS THABETHE: My question is, Mr Mhlongo, you have said that you only were aware of such an enquiry having taken place. Was there any information relayed to you about the said enquiry, as to what was happening there, and what findings were made there with regard to Hapile Ndumo and Elsie?

MR MHLONGO: I have mentioned already that before many things could be done a general order was issued out. Now I came to know that they were implicated.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that prior to the enquiry that we have already heard evidence both from Mr Mkwanazi and Mr Radebe, as well as the witnesses we have called to support their application, Mr Ngiba and Mr Khumalo, you are saying that a general order was issued before that enquiry was held. Is that what you are saying?

MR MHLONGO: That is not what I am telling you.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us then what you want to tell us.

MR MHLONGO: I am saying the general order was issued out after my commander had met with the underground structure that was investigating this incident. Now I got out of the unit and found the information myself.

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just interpose here. Are you saying that your commander told you that he had met with his underground structures, who had made an investigation, and that after that you issued the general order?

CHAIRPERSON: And when was that?

MR MHLONGO: It was in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Mhlongo is it your evidence today then, that you did not, or you were not informed of the findings of that enquiry regarding Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Well, my instructions, Mr Mhlongo, are that they were found not to be guilty of having been spies in that enquiry. What is your comment to that?

MR MHLONGO: They were not found guilty where?

MS THABETHE: At the enquiry which took place in the ANC offices, and which enquiry you have just testified that you did not have information of it's findings.

CHAIRPERSON: Please repeat your question, I didn't get it because something distracted me.

MS THABETHE: I was explaining to Mr Mhlongo, he was asking me a question which enquiry, so I was explaining which enquiry.

CHAIRPERSON: Which enquiry did you say you were referring to?

MS THABETHE: I said I was referring to the enquiry where Hapile Ndumo and Elsie were called, in March 1992, which enquiry Mr Mhlongo said he was not aware of its findings.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo do you agree with the version that has been given by Ms Mokoena? That an enquiry that was intended to investigate some allegations that had been levelled against Ms Mokoena and other ladies, some of whom included herself and Ms Ndumo, was held in March '92. That's her version. We have also heard a different version from the applicants that the enquiry was held in June 1992. Are you in a position to assist us in that regard? Do you know when this enquiry was held? Was that in March or in June?

MR MHLONGO: Chairperson, my apologies, which enquiries are you referring to now? The enquiries about Hapile and Elsie, I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear about that enquiry which was held at a garage where Mr Hlombai was a chairperson of the ANC youth league?

MR MHLONGO: Yes. I heard about it. I further heard that they were disciplined.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you about the enquiry?

MR MHLONGO: It was comrade Stanley.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the one who told you that they also imposed a punishment?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MR MHLONGO: It was a few weeks after my entrance into the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you are saying you came back in February 1992. So that would actually take you to between January and beginning of February 1992. Am I correct? Oh, a few weeks after your entry. That would take you to March?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would actually agree with the version given by Ms Mokoena that the enquiry was held in March 1992?

MR MHLONGO: I was not present when the enquiry was held, so therefore I would not agree or disagree. I do not know when it was held.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were informed by comrade Stanley a few weeks after your entry, and your entry was in February. It couldn't have been a few months after your entry.

MR MHLONGO: Yes, it was a few weeks after my entry, so.

CHAIRPERSON: You are in no position to deny, if that is your evidence. Proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair. Would you say then Mr Mhlongo, that that thorough investigation that you alleged that you did happened after this enquiry, or before this enquiry took place?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, my investigation was conducted after the enquiry.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe are you not referring to a general order. Were you referring to his specific orders?

MS THABETHE: I was referring to the fact that he said he did a thorough investigation before issuing an order. So my question to him was the thorough investigation done after the enquiry had been done, or before.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you conduct your own enquiry?

MR MHLONGO: After they had been given lashes, and before they were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did you own enquiry entail?

MR MHLONGO: I realised that they were supposed to be killed. They were a poison within the community, and because of what they were doing in town, and they got into Zone 12 at night using cars.

CHAIRPERSON: My question was what did your investigation entail? How did you conduct your investigation? What is it that you did in order to come with whatever finding? Iím not asking you about the findings of your enquiry, Iím asking you about the steps you took in conducting such an enquiry.

MR MHLONGO: Thank you Chairperson. My apologies. I searched for them and I couldnít find them. When I met them, I was not investigating. It happened that I saw them. When I first saw them it was when I took out a grenade and threw it at them. The second time was in town when the community was harassed. That was evidence enough to give my unit an order to eliminate them upon sight.

CHAIRPERSON: You call that an investigation? You are a trained operative. You call that an investigation? Is that what you seriously mean by an investigation?

MR MHLONGO: Chairperson, I already told you that I was not investigating at that time. It so happened, it incidentally happened, that I saw that. It was part of information.

CHAIRPERSON: No the reason why Iím putting that question is because of your earlier evidence that you also conducted your own enquiry, and you said it was a thorough investigation. Now have you not elicited that kind of evidence, this question would have been completely unwarranted. It is your evidence, and it is as a result of your evidence that I am asking this question. You stated that you conducted a thorough, not just any kind of investigation. You qualified the kind of investigation you conducted as having been thorough. Now I just wanted to find out how this thorough investigation was conducted.

MR MHLONGO: Chairperson, I repeat ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: There is no translation coming through.

INTERPRETER: The interpreterís are waiting for him to speak, lady Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought he was talking and you are not translating.

MR MHLONGO: As I have mentioned that I investigated, but I could not get anything out of this investigation, and the final proof was to see them and there were no investigations necessary just because I had seen them.

CHAIRPERSON: No, your earlier evidence was that you conducted a thorough investigation. Did you say that, or didnít you say that?

MR MHLONGO: Chairperson, when I saw them, seeing them was enough.

CHAIRPERSON: No I know that. I want to know your earlier evidence. Everything you say is taken into, seriously into, account. I want to know whether you didnít say earlier on that you conducted a thorough investigation. Did you or did you not say that?

MR MHLONGO: What I saw falls under what youíre saying.

CHAIRPERSON: No, Iím going to ask you for the last time. If you are not prepared to answer, then you donít answer. You are here to assist. As a commander, or an alleged commander, in the applications of Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Radebe, we expect you to respond to questions when they are put to you. If you are unable to answer, do not answer, and indicate your inability to do so. Do not adopt a particular attitude with this Committee. Itís not going to get you anywhere. Do you understand me? You are here to assist us and when we ask you questions, we expect you to respond to those questions because we need information in order to be able to decide whether the grant or deny the applicants the amnesty they have applied for. Did you earlier on state that you had conducted a thorough investigation? Did you, or did you not, say that in your earlier testimony?

MR MHLONGO: I would not respond to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not? Why are you unable to know whether you said that or not?

MR MHLONGO: Chairperson, I have spoken. Iím now aware that we do not understand each other.

CHAIRPERSON: Why donít we understand each other?

MR MHLONGO: I do not know why. I do not know what causes this. I had explained.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you had explained? Because this is the explanation I am seeking.

MR MHLONGO: I explained how I proved my point that they were involved. That made me issuing out orders that they be eliminated. Now what I donít understand is your question. Where is your question leading to?

CHAIRPERSON: Earlier on, of your own accord, you said you conducted a thorough investigation in relation to the activities of the two girls in question. Thatís what you said, and I want to understand if you still maintain thatís what you said.

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I hope it takes you a little faster next time to say yes instead of giving us a sermon that doesnít take us anywhere. You are there to assist Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Radebe and not to adopt an attitude with this Committee. You have been called in to support their application because you were allegedly a commander of a unit. We hope youíll do just that without wasting our invaluable time. We donít have time to waste. Proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair. With regard to the murder of Maletsatsi, Mr Mhlongo, are you saying you were a unit commander?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Do you know a comrade by the name of Kennel Powells Malokwane?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Did he belong to any political organisation?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Which one?

MR MHLONGO: ANC youth league.

MS THABETHE: Was he a member of an SDU?

MR MHLONGO: He was the commissar of Umkhonto weSiswe.

MS THABETHE: Did he work with SDUs as a commissar of Umkhonto weSiswe?

MR MHLONGO: I do not know. He was in his district.

MS THABETHE: Which district are you talking about?

MR MHLONGO: He was under Small Farm District.

MS THABETHE: So you wouldnít know which rank he occupied there, besides the fact that he was a commissar of an MK?

MR MHLONGO: I do not understand your question.

MS THABETHE: My question is with regard to the SDU activities. Iím asking would you know, or wouldnít you know, whether, which rank he was in as an SDU, except that he was a commissar of an MK?

MR MHLONGO: I do not know.

MS THABETHE: Were you present when Maletsatsi was killed?

MR MHLONGO: I was not present.

MS THABETHE: Did you have any information of who, besides Mr John Radebe, was present when Maletsatsi was killed?

MR MHLONGO: I know that itís John Radebe who shot.

MS THABETHE: No, what Iím asking is when her killing was reported to you, were you told who else was there besides John Radebe?

MR MHLONGO: What I was told is that the community of Small Farm had gathered at the scene.

MS THABETHE: Do you know how she was killed?

MR MHLONGO: I know that she was shot.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair. No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe. Ms Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mhlongo, when you, after you had thrown the hand grenade into this white car, who did you tell about it? To whom did you mention this incident?

MR MHLONGO: I told my unit, that was after the vehicle sped off. I told them the description of the car. I told them that I threw a hand grenade inside the car, it was thrown out, and the car sped of.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you tell them whom you saw in the car?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I told them.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you mention Hapile to them?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I told them, because she is the person I clearly saw.

ADV BOSMAN: You see, why Iím asking you this is I find it strange that they never mentioned it in their evidence, that they knew about this. Can you comment on this?

MR MHLONGO: I do not know why they did not mention it, but this the information they had.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you tell them about the incident when you saw Hapile and Elsie in town harassing the other people?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I told them.

ADV BOSMAN: I also find it strange that they didnít mention this. Do you have any idea why theyíve forgotten all this information. Can you comment on it?

MR MHLONGO: I do not know why they forgot to mention that. So many things happened. They got involved in so many things, and I have told them so many things.

ADV BOSMAN: But do you agree that these two incidents were the most important in you deciding that they should be killed?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I agree.

ADV BOSMAN: When you met with Mr Bonga Khumalo after the incident, and you reported to him, did you tell him what the, everything that had been conveyed to you by the defendant?

MR MHLONGO: I did not tell him everything, because he was on the run. Our position was very awkward. We were close to the deceased family, so we could not talk freely.

ADV BOSMAN: You did mention that you told him, let me just see, if youíll bear with me for a moment Madam Chair, that you told him certain things. Did you tell him anything about confessions?

MR MHLONGO: I do not understand your question.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you tell him anything about confessions people had made?

MR MHLONGO: I did not tell him. I only told him that one of them is dead and the other one survived, and we separated.

ADV BOSMAN: So if I tell you that Mr Khumalo says that you told him that Elsie confessed, or Hapile rather had confessed, to being a spy for the IFP would you say you did not tell him that?

MR MHLONGO: The issue of confession was not mentioned during the reporting. When we met the second time, that was when I gave him a full report. He might have mixed the two issues.

ADV BOSMAN: Why did you not lead this confession when I asked you whether you had told him anything about confessions? Why did you not remember that you had told him about confessions at another stage?

MR MHLONGO: I did not mention it because I thought you were asking me about the first time we met. That is why I did not mention it.

ADV BOSMAN: And it would appear to me as though you had given two orders for the killing of Hapile and Elsie. Is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: You gave the one order after the grenade had been thrown into the car, is that right?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: And why was it then necessary to issue a second order in exactly the same terms?

MR MHLONGO: Because the, my soldiers, were getting very lazy and I wanted to remind them that they had taken an oath.

ADV BOSMAN: And the first order, had you given that before the general order was issued, or after?

MR MHLONGO: After the general order.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Mr Mhlongo, you told us that Mr Radebe joined your unit after June, you said after he completed his training, which was in June, is that right? June 1993?

MR MHLONGO: He joined my unit before unit. He went for a course and came back and started operating in June.

MR LAX: Yes, when did he join your unit?

MR MHLONGO: When did he join the unit to operate, or what are you referring to? I do not get your question.

MR LAX: Your earlier evidence was that you recruited him in about June. You sent him on a monthís course to Sasolburg. When he came back he started operating with your unit as a 2IC. That was your evidence.

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: So then why are you arguing with me when I say to you and ask you whether he started with your unit in June or just after June? You said no he joined much earlier.

MR MHLONGO: I did not get your question, but now I have it.

MR LAX: He started just after June sometime, after his training, correct?

MR MHLONGO: He arrived in June from the training.

MR LAX: So he must have joined your unit just before that, probably in July?

MR MHLONGO: In June.

MR LAX: I beg your pardon, probably in May. Just before June, just before he went for his training.

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR LAX: Well you see his evidence to us was that he joined your unit late 1992, early 1993, and he was already at that time 2IC. Are you making a mistake, or is he maybe making a mistake?

MR MHLONGO: He made a mistake. He became my 2IC after he went for a crash course.

MR LAX: Now this crash course was a specialised training, was it?

MR MHLONGO: It was.

MR LAX: What did it consist of?

MR MHLONGO: There was a political class, there was a firearm class.

MR LAX: Yes.

MR MHLONGO: There were rules on attack.

MR LAX: So it was a full training as a commando?

MR MHLONGO: No.

MR LAX: Was it just a full training as an SDU member?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR LAX: It wasnít an orientation programme was it?

MR MHLONGO: It was not an orientation course.

MR LAX: Well you see thatís what Mr Radebe told us it was. He said he went on an orientation course. Is he making another mistake?

MR MHLONGO: He made a mistake, because we dealt with him physically.

MR LAX: What do you mean you dealt with him physically?

MR MHLONGO: He was aware that it was a training, it was not just an orientation.

MR LAX: Now, you told us that there was a second briefing that you gave Bonga Khumalo. A much fuller briefing. When did that happen?

MR MHLONGO: After Hapileís death we were on the run, I took cover, he was always, he was also under cover, but there were times when I appeared.

MR LAX: The question was when was it? Iím not interested in whether you were on the run or not. When was this briefing? Simple question.

MR MHLONGO: It was two months later, after the incident.

MR LAX: So that would have been in October 1993?

MR MHLONGO: I would say so, yes.

MR LAX: And who was present at this briefing that you gave him?

MR MHLONGO: There was no-one, it was myself and him.

MR LAX: But you see he didnít tell us anything about the second briefing with you.

MR MHLONGO: Maybe he forgot, thatís his mistake. We did meet again.

MR LAX: What did you tell him at that second briefing? I want you to try and remember very carefully what you told him.

MR MHLONGO: I told him that my soldiers were responsible for the death of Hapile, and Elsie survived, and I told him that it was a blunder that Elsie survived, and after, upon realising that they made a mistake by letting Elsie survive they also went under cover, so it was upon my shoulders to call a gathering and meet with them.

MR LAX: Who is them?

MR MHLONGO: Iím referring to John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi.

MR LAX: And when did you meet with them?

MR MHLONGO: I met with them, it was in 1994.

MR LAX: Iím asking you what you told your commander, Bonga Khumalo, in 1993. How could you have him anything you got from them in 1994?

MR MHLONGO: I met with Bonga in October of 1993, I am not mistake, and as a unit commander I was accounting, telling him that the people responsible for such an act were under, were in my unit. And I was accounting on their behalf because they had, they were not present.

MR LAX: The point is, you went on to explain that you knew what they had told, you were able to report because you had met with these guys and they had explained to you what happened. That was your evidence. And then when I asked you when did you meet with them, you said it was in 1994. Do you understand my puzzlement with you?

MR MHLONGO: Chairperson, my apologies. I said the person who came to report to me was Bopipo, not the people who committed the act. The act was committed by Mkhwanazi and Radebe, but the person who was with them came to report to me and he is Bopipo.

MR LAX: What exactly, Iím asking this for the second time, did you tell Bonga Khumalo, when you briefed him fully about this matter? So far youíve told us that all you told him was that your unit was responsible, that it was a blunder that Elsie survived, thatís all you told him. Is that right?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR LAX: Youíre quite sure about that?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR LAX: So when did you tell him about the confession? Your evidence earlier was that at the second briefing you told him about the confession. You didnít tell him about any confession, isnít that right?

MR MHLONGO: It was spread all over that before they died they had confessed, so he knew it himself.

MR LAX: You told us that you told him about it, not that it was known in the township. Either you told him or you didnít. Just give me a straight answer, please.

MR MHLONGO: I told him about that.

MR LAX: Well why then did you say that the only thing that you told him was what you had told me before I mentioned the confession?

MR MHLONGO: I am getting tired now. I am getting tired. And these things took place five years back. Iím getting confused because of so many things that happened. Iím serious about that.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, I wonít ask him any more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo, Iím aware that you are getting tired, and that these things happened a long time ago. But we also are in the hands of Ms Moloisane. She called you here to testify to events being alluded to by her clients who are applying for amnesty. We want to believe she would not have called you if she had not, in her consultation, exercised her mind as a lawyer whether your evidence would be relevant and would materially support the application of your comrades, Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Radebe. Do you understand me?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We donít ask you questions for the fun of asking you questions. These questions are intended to assist us in considering these applications of your comrades, and we want to believe that you willingly came in to testify in support of their applications. Are we correct in our belief?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you have testified earlier on that you also conducted your own investigation about the activities of Ms Ndumo and Ms Mokoena, and came to the same conclusion, that they indeed were Imidwembe. Did I understand your evidence correct in that aspect?

MR MHLONGO: Yes. That was my evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did you, apart from conducting your own investigation, refer the matter of the two ladies to anyone within the MK structure, and to be precise, to an underground structure of the MK?

MR MHLONGO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why Iím asking that question, is that yesterday we heard evidence from Bonga Khumalo who was your general commander, that it was the function of the underground structure of MK to verify information regarding Imidwembe. That was the evidence that was given before us, and he was unable to explain whether the allegations of Imidwembe pertaining to Elsie and to Hapile, whether it had been referred to the underground structure. So you are the commander of the unit. We now want to find out whether you were aware of this important principle that Bonga Khumalo alluded to, and said it was in fact the cornerstone of your structure, that the principle was based on logic, that the organisation did not want to act upon unverified information concerning Imidwembe.

Now since he was unable to shed more light about this, we are now looking to you as the commander of the unit concerned to tell us whether these allegations were referred to the underground structure at all, and if so, to whom, and if not, why they were not so referred, when Mr Khumalo has made us to believe that it was an important requirement before any action be taken concerning Imidwembe.

MR MHLONGO: Mr Khumalo testified to the effect that there was an under structure, and I did not know who it consisted of. Those people were underground, they were hidden, but some people knew them, and some of us did not.

CHAIRPERSON: We appear not to be on - does he want a break?

MS THABETHE: He has just indicated that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo I am not going to be long with you. It is really this aspect, and one very short aspect, however I can see that there is a look of fatigue on your face, and I think weíll adjourn for three minutes. I hope that will be sufficient so that we can just have a breath of fresh air.

MR MHLONGO: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I donít want you to come back tomorrow to give further evidence, lest we be tempted to take even much longer with you tomorrow, so we take a few minutes adjournment.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, Ms Moloisane, may I draw your attention to the fact that whilst the witness is being questioned, you may not speak to him. That is the rule of thumb. It would be unethical for you to speak to him.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair I was not speaking about the contents of the questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely because any person who sees you speaking to your witness would not know the content of your discussion, it is always wise and more than advisable for Counsel not to be near the witness who is being questioned. You are not supposed to be near that witness because of public perception. It is part of our public administrative law.

MS MOLOISANE: I am aware of that Madam Chair, and even in the other Courts I know it happens that way.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is not the content of the discussion, it is the perception that you are seen speaking to a witness who is being questioned, which is the crux of the problem.

Mr Mhlongo, I will repeat what I put to you before we took a short adjournment. Yesterday Mr Bonga Khumalo who was your general commander, advises that the cornerstone rule of your structure, which was put there for the integrity of your organisation, was that you as commanders could not act upon any information concerning allegations of persons who were referred to as Imidwembe, without verifying those allegations with your underground structures of MK. Are you aware of that rule as a commander?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I was aware.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. In this regard, did you apply that rule?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I applied the rules.

CHAIRPERSON: To whom did you refer the information which you had about Ms Hapile and Ms Ndumo within the underground structures of MK?

MR MHLONGO: I did not have the right to meet with the underground structure before I could meet with my commander. My commander had contact with the underground structure, not me.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it your evidence therefore that you relayed the information to Mr Khumalo and requested him as your general commander to take it to your underground structures for verification?

MR MHLONGO: I did not ask him to go to the underground structure, that was his duty.

CHAIRPERSON: You see when we questioned Mr Khumalo about whether this was done in the situation of Ms Hapile and Ms Ndumo he said he did not, he did not know whether you as a commander had done so, because it was a function of a unit commander to do the verification. That is why Iím asking you as a unit commander, because the evidence suggested that it was not his function but that of a unit commander to refer such matters to underground structures.

MR MHLONGO: If when, if I heard Mr Khumalo well, he was saying unit commanders had the rights to issue out orders only after theyíve investigated that yes, these people were involved. Thatís how I understood him. Not that because I was a commander of a unit I had to meet under structure.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I am not concerned about how you comprehended his evidence. I am putting to you what he said. He said there was a need to verify information before it could be acted upon, to avoid innocent persons from being killed, merely on the say-so of someone that they were either IFP informers or passing on information to the police, and that even Ďthough this was an important principle it was not his function to verify, suggesting that it was the function of a unit commander to verify. Are you saying he was wrong?

MR MHLONGO: He was not wrong, he just made a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: Why, are you in his mind to say whether he is wrong or he has made a mistake? Was it not your function to verify?

MR MHLONGO: It was not my function.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying it was the function of the general commander?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And in this case are you aware whether Mr Bonga verified?

MR MHLONGO: I do not have knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Now whilst I was still trying to peruse my notes to find out exactly what Mr Khumalo said in this, in this regard, it has now been drawn to my attention by a member of my Committee, that Mr Khumalo said it was your function to verify and that you reported to him that you had verified with the underground structures of MK before, before this incident occurred, and that you told him so after Ms Ndumo had been killed. Was he lying when he gave us that evidence?

MR MHLONGO: That is not correct. As the unit commander, I was supposed to make sure whether it was true, and I had to give the general commander a report back, and he was supposed to move and pass it on to the underground structure, and the underground structure was supposed to then verify.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are saying that he lied when he gave that evidence. Yes or no.

CHAIRPERSON: It will be difficult to respond by saying yes or no. Thatís how we did not operate in that way.

CHAIRPERSON: But he says thatís what you said to him. You told him that you had verified with the underground structures. Did you or did you not tell him that you had verified with the underground structures?

MR MHLONGO: I did not verify with the underground structure. I did it alone.

CHAIRPERSON: So if Mr Khumalo says that you said you had verified with the underground structures, he is lying, you didnít say that to him?

MR MHLONGO: I did not say that to him.

CHAIRPERSON: So he is lying.

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And even Ďthough you are saying it is not your function, you know there is a need for verification, but it is not your function, it is the function of the general commander.

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I knew that there was verification needed.

CHAIRPERSON: In your evidence, you stated that the reason why you initially issued the order to have Elsie and Hapile killed, was after you had identified three girls who were seated at the back of the car, and two boys, who were identified as IFP members. You were in a position to identify one of the girls as Hapile Ndumo. And it was on the basis of having seen those girls in the company of people who were IFP members that you issued the order that Elsie and Hapile should be killed. My question is, it is quite clear in your evidence that you only identified one person, and thatís Hapile Ndumo, yet your order was specific in terms of what had to be done, and to whom, the killing had to be effected. Why did you include Elsie whom you had not identified amongst the three girls?

MR MHLONGO: Elsie was not present during the incident of the car, but she got involved in the other things, that why I said they should be killed. She got implicated somewhere.

CHAIRPERSON: When did she get implicated somewhere? How long after you had identified Hapile Ndumo in the company of the two gentlemen whom you regarded as IFP members?

MR MHLONGO: I do not remember. I donít remember how long it was after I saw Hapile in the car, but it was in town.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know that incident. That happened quite a long time after because your evidence was that they disappeared thereafter for a long, long time. Is it not so? That was your evidence. And the next time you saw them was when they were in town in the company of a group of people that you identified to us. You named Oupa Smith, you named Dondo, you named Dada, and a number of people. But that happened a long time after the grenade incident. Is it not so?

MR MHLONGO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And you will recall that your order was issued the next day after you had identified Ms Ndumo in the company of these IFP persons, so how could you have included her because of what she then further did? And Iím talking about Elsie. How could you have included her in what she had further did, because the order was prompted by the fact that you had seen these three girls in the company of the IFP persons? Were you not wrong in including her then?

MR MHLONGO: I included Elsie in the killing because the two of them disappeared, and where Hapile was Elsie was found. In other words, she was an obstacle too.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo, you ordered that Elsie and Hapile should be killed immediately after you had recognised Hapile amongst the small group of girls who were in the company of alleged IFP members. How can you say you included her because she disappeared, when, how soon does it take one to disappear? She wasnít in the car, you said, and the next day you give an order, so when has she disappeared in 24 hours?

MR MHLONGO: Chairperson I think I said already that they had disappeared before the incident of this car. When I saw Hapile in the car they had long disappeared. I could only see Hapile. Now since that they had disappeared, the two of them, I thought she must be among those girls, thatís why the following day I included her. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo we are sitting here and listening very meticulously to your evidence. We have to understand the sequence in which you give your evidence. It is our function to do so. It is our function to make sure that we donít mislead you, in the evidence that you have led. If we did so we would be doing a serious miscarriage of justice, not only to you but to the process itself. Not to mention to the applications of Mr Radebe and Mr Mkhwanazi. And we can assure you that we make sure that we do not do a miscarriage of justice. We do not misquote you. It was your evidence said that these ladies disappeared for a long time, after the hand grenade attack, and the next time you saw them you saw them when they were in town, and when you saw them they were in the company of Oupa Smith, who stayed in Zone 13, Dondo who stayed in, no you didnít know where Dondo stayed, Dada who stayed in Zone 12, and Jabu who once stayed in Zone 12 as well, at which time all these men were now staying at Kwamadala Hostel. That was the sequence of your evidence.

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now how can you say Elsie had disappeared a long time before? How can you say that? When I asked you, you said this incident happened around June 1992. I asked you that question specifically and that was your response. You said around June 1992, and later said it must have been before June 1992. The record will bear me out. Was it not a mistake to have included Elsie in your order, your initial orders which you issued immediately, and to be precise, a day after you had identified only Hapile Ndumo amongst alleged IFP members in the car?

MR MHLONGO: No. I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: On what basis was she included? Your evidence is that she was not there, and you enquiries were only prompted by that particular incident. This is your evidence. You only started investigating this matter after the hand grenade incident, which is the incident that occurred at the entrance of LTA in Zone 12 Extension.

MR MHLONGO: Chairperson, letís go back a little bit. We must remember that that sentence had already been passed out on them, as well as other, as well as other Imidwembe. Chairperson you are disturbing me. You are really scaring me.

CHAIRPERSON: There is no cause for you to be scared. You may proceed Mr Mhlango. The general order was issued, you were still saying, the death sentence?

MR MHLONGO: Yes. The general commander had issued out a general order already, and after throwing a grenade into the car and it was thrown out of the car I repeated the order. I said Hapile and Elsie should be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know when the general order was issued?

MR MHLONGO: It was given to the unit commanders.

CHAIRPERSON: When?

MR MHLONGO: I do not remember the day, but I was after the proper establishment of the units.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure that it was immediately after the proper establishment of the unit?

MR MHLONGO: I am sure.

CHAIRPERSON: When were the units properly established, thatís what Iíve been trying to elicit from you ever since you started giving evidence?

MR MHLONGO: If I am not mistaken it was around June, thatís when they were established and they were becoming more responsible.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not in fact so that Mr Khumalo assumed his command of the unit in June 1993, Ď92?

MR MHLONGO: I do not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not a fact that Mr Bonga Khumalo became a general commander in June 1992?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that being so you should be able to give us an indication when a general order was issued by him.

MR MHLONGO: After he became the general commander. In those few days after he became the general commander the general order was issued out.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it in the month of June?

MR MHLONGO: If Iím not mistaken, yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If Mr Khumalo says after June, would he be correct?

MR MHLONGO: I am not quite sure.

CHAIRPERSON: If Mr Khumalo in his evidence said the order was issued after June, would he be correct, meaning it wasnít issued in June but it was after June. Would he be correct?

MR MHLONGO: He might be right. Thatís why Iím saying I do not remember quite well.

CHAIRPERSON: Your evidence is it must have been around June.

MR MHLONGO: Iím saying it was around June, yes. Iím supposed to, Iím right saying it was around June, but I am not exact as to the dates. It might have been that he became a commander on the 8th of June and the 31st he became the commander, and now it would be difficult to actually separate the dates.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now Iím aware that it would be impossible for you to give us a specific date. I am saying if Mr Khumalo said he didnít order, give a general order, around June, but only issued it much later than June, then he would be incorrect.

MR MHLONGO: I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, emanating from the questions, just switch off your microphone. Emanating from the questions from the Panel do you think there is any need for re-examination.

MS MOLOISANE: I have no re-examination Madam Chair.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair I think that concludes the incident of Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena, which leaves us with the incident of Maletsatsi.

RECALL OF JOHN RADEBE

NEW INCIDENT RE MALETSATSI

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of the Maletsatsi incident we only have one applicant, and thatís Mr John Radebe. Ms Moloisane are you in a position to proceed with the evidence in chief of Mr Radebe?

MS MOLOISANE: ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: We have been assured in Chambers that it is a fairly short incident. Maybe we can dispose of this incident today.

MS MOLOISANE: I intend calling him right now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe you may again take your seat. You know that you lead evidence in respect of the other incident. I think for the record we shall now move to the incident regarding the killing of Maletsatsi Morumo, which occurred on the 14th of June 1993. We shall now proceed with the evidence in chief of Mr Mjanyana John Radebe, who is the only applicant in respect of this incident. The Panel consists of, itís still the same as the one that heard an earlier incident concerning Ms Mokoena and Ms Ndumo.

Ms Moloisane you may proceed to lead his evidence in chief.

JOHN RADEBE: (s.u.o.)

EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE: Mr Radebe you have applied for amnesty in respect of the murder of Ms Maletsatsi Marumo. Is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: And it is common cause that you killed the said Maletsatsi Marumo on the 14th of June 1993. Is that also correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: Now will you please tell this Committee what you, or what led to the killing of the said Maletsatsi Marumo?

MR RADEBE

"It was in early 1992 or late 1992, I would not remember the month. Maletsatsi was our comrade in the ANC youth league, she was supporting very well. She was a pupil at Mpuluzi secondary school. It happened that while she was still a pupil her father passed away. After the passing away of her father her mother left her. She went to look for another place at Grassmere.

After they left, Maletsatsi got involved in the issues regarding comradeship where she was with us most of the times. We realised that she was financially struggling, and as comrades we went to her school and we intervened. We told the principal that Maletsatsi, we requested that she pays, we requested the principal not to let her pay the school fees because she was left alone, and this was accepted. We then went to the owner of the place because she lived in a shack, she was a tenant, and we requested that the R20 rent that she was supposed to pay every month be scratched. They understood that.

Comrade Maletsatsi became very active in our struggle as the ANC youth. After some time we discovered that she was now living in Vereeniging. She went to town, came back to the township, and after some time it was rumoured that she was involved with Getisi and others. That was during the time when Getisi and his people began the killing of people. We asked comrade Maletsatsi about this rumour and we discovered that she did not know it, and we just left it there.

After quite some time some girls from the youth league, who were involved in the struggle, and just to mention a few, Makezasa, Gambu, Mkhwanazi, Gogo and Ellen, it was quite a group of girls who supported our organisation. We got information that these girls also were getting, were associated with Getisi and his group. One day I was travelling, I was moving from Zone 12 and the the comrades from Small Farms informed me that the Gogo and them were kidnapped from town and they were assaulted."

MS MOLOISANE: When was this?

MR RADEBE: I think all these happened in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) Try and estimate a date Ms Moloisane. It will assist us greatly. To speak of the year, it really doesn't come to our assistance.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you, Madam Chair. Just be brief Mr Radebe.

MR RADEBE

"I think it was early 19, late 1992 or early 1993. Somewhere around there. The comrades informed me that they assaulted Gogo and them, yes, I was informed and I came to know that those girls were assaulted. When this group was assaulted Maletsatsi was not present, and she disappeared into town and she lived at Kwamadala Hostel. There is a girl called Makazasa Gambu. I also heard that she was involved with them.

One day we went to Makazasa's home to ask her questions, and she was not telling us the truth, but some people confirmed that they saw her among a group of Inkatha members in town. There was no information received out of her, and we left her. We went to Mandlela's home to look for her. We could not find her. She was now permanently living in town. We were using Maletsatsi's place as a place of our hiding, because the police could not even suspect that a place belonging to a girl could be used to hide things.

One day it was at night when the whites came, they did not find us because we heard the sounds of their cars and we ran away. The next day the neighbours told us that is was Maletsatsi in the company of the boers. It was evident for us that what we heard was true, because here she was with the police. There were two ladies Thandi and, Thandi Dlamini and Naniki Tshabalala. One day when they went to town Maletsatsi and her gang took them to a place called Steel Park and they were assaulted and they were locked inside a house. They managed to escape."

MS MOLOISANE: Is that what you were told by Thandi and Naniki?

MR RADEBE: Yes, on their return. I think we heard it being spoke in the township, but as comrades we went to them to get first hand information. There was a certain comrade called Kennel.

"One day, I do not remember where we came from, but it was in the morning at about 4 o'clock, I think we were from Zone 7, we met at a certain place and he informed all the comrades. He said, '..comrades, we had such comrades in the organisation and they removed themselves from the organisation and those comrades are now living with comrades.' And he informed us that '...do you see one of our comrades had just been shot last week. It was close to the shops. Close to Maletsatsi's home.''

Before that there was a certain comrade called Moscow, he's now in the South African National Defence Force. At that time he was the chairperson of Cosas in Mpuluzi. He addressed this issue with the students. He said '...comrades we must know from now that comrade Maletsatsi ... and he mentioned others, he said '...they now reside in town, they are members of, they are with the IFP.'

Now it was known in the whole township that Maletsatsi is not to be seen. Because some of the girls in the organisation were complaining that they had been to Kwamadala, they had been inside, but they did not go voluntarily, they were lured. There were new shops that were opened in Vereeniging. The first one Crystal Palace, or it's called American Palace, and Giddys. Maletsatsi did not have money, but she managed to give these girls a lot of money and take them to town knowing exactly who they were going to meet.

Now when these girls came out of Kwamadala they informed us, they said '...comrades, we come from such and such a place. It was not intentionally. Maletsatsi is very free right in there, she is the leader, and she is in front of all the, all the assaults taking place in town.'"

MS MOLOISANE: Who are those girls who gave you this report?

MR RADEBE: The first one is Gogo, Ellen, I personally spoke to Makazasa Gambu. And she told me about Kwamadala, and she described how Maletsatsi lived in there with Getisi, Dondo, Hanta Ndlovu, and many of the IFP men. After comrade Kennel spread this message of Maletsatsi's killing I ...(intervention).

MR LAX: Sorry, sorry sir. What message about Maletsatsi's killing? You haven't told us anything about such a message. Would you please just ..

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you're still talking about comrade Moscow.

MR RADEBE: I said Moscow informed us that Maletsatsi was no longer a member of the organisation, and there was no meeting that Maletsatsi would attend, and that Maletsatsi was now living in town with Getisi. He was addressing the pupils and those of us who were present at the school.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's right. You are now mentioning comrade Paulus as if you've already given evidence about him. You have not yet given anything concerning Mr Paulus, comrade Kennel Paulus.

MS MOLOISANE: Who is this comrade Kennel Paulus?

MR RADEBE: He was a member of Umkhonto weSiswe.

MS MOLOISANE: Is it Kennel Paulus Malekwane? Is it the same person?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: Continue. What message about Maletsatsi's killing did he give you?

MR RADEBE: I think it was in the morning, 4 o'clock, he said "...comrades you must know from now that Maletsatsi lives in such a place and they are assaulting people." He said, "...Maletsatsi takes our comrades who happen to be her friends and she takes them to Inkatha." He said, "...comrades she must be killed." That's all. I then left to go and join the unit in Zone 12, that is comrade Mabusa's unit. ...(intervention)

MS MOLOISANE: Just before you proceed. When was that when comrade Kennel gave you this message?

MR RADEBE: I'm going to make a big mistake if I say I remember when, but it was in 1993, before May.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes, proceed.

MR RADEBE: I went to join comrade Mabusa's unit because we were based together at Maletsatsi's place. If it was difficult in the other side comrades would run to the other side. We then discussed and realised that Maletsatsi's issue was very, Maletsatsi was dangerous, and the decision that she must be killed because she was the most dangerous amongst all, because she participated in a lot of activities of the ANC. She ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose? You then discussed, who are you referring to when you say we then discussed about the Maletsatsi issue?

MR RADEBE: We were discussing the issue, her involvement in town.

MR LAX: The question was who was we? Who were you discussing this with? Whose the we?

MR RADEBE: Comrade Mabusa, comrade Godfrey, and other comrades who belonged to the unit. We discussed Maletsatsi's activities in town. Comrade Mabusa issued out an order. He said to me "...Umkhonto, should you meet her," because even if I hid somewhere I was supposed to go back to the house and take a bath, that's how my order came out, he said I should shoot her. Indeed one day when we were at comrade Sipho Tshabalala's home, we were just sitting outside. If I remember well we had a problem with a gun and we were fixing it. I think this boy Zakhele Shoba who came to us was ten, if not twelve years old then. On his arrival he told us that Thandi sent him to call us to her place, and they needed us to bring the material. We comprehended what the material was. Material referred to something like a firearm. We then left for Thandi's place. The Small Farm office was very far. Now we used Thandi's home because it was the nearest to us and we would put some benches outside, sit and have our gatherings. When I arrived at Thandi's house, it was full of comrades. Majiga was there, comrade Yebohang Gambu was there, yes, Nchanyana was also there. I asked a question, "...comrades, where did you get this wanted person?" They said she was travelling in a train ...(intervention)

MS MOLOISANE: Who are you referring to?

MR RADEBE: I was referring to Maletsatsi Marumo.

MS MOLOISANE: Was she present amongst the comrades there?

MR RADEBE

"She was seated with the comrades inside. I asked them, '...comrades, where did you get her?' They said, '...in the train.' Who found her, they explained. The comrades assumed she was going to her mother, and when the train was at Stratford station, that's where they took her out of the train by force. They took a taxi from Orange Farm to Small Farm. That was the information given to me.

I was with comrade Sipho Tshabalala at that time, and I asked them. There was a firearm that we used to carry, we used to call it Boito. Now I had Boito with me, but it was hidden under a lumber jacket, because I was wearing a lumber jacket. There was only one round inside. And I said to them, '...comrades, do you know that the police can arrive at any moment and disturb you because you are in a big group?' We then left with her. We were taking her to Reverend King's house, that's where we had an ANC office. We were a group of comrades.

Comrade Majiga was holding her in his hand and I was following from behind together with comrade Sipho, and I recalled that, yes, the police are troubling us in this area, I don't need any information from Maletsatsi. It was enough, the information that we had about Maletsatsi was enough, that she was Imidwembe, and an order had been issued out. What order was I waiting for? That's where I pulled out Boito from underneath the lumber jacket. I shot her from behind, and she fell, and I said to comrades, '...let us leave and go to Zone 12.'

We went to Zone 12 and we slept over there. The next morning we came back to see, to check as to what happened. When we arrived there, Maletsatsi's body was still there from the previous night. We passed and I met comrade Mandla Malindi. Comrade Mandla Malindi said to us, '...comrades, a certain comrade from Zone 12 arrived.' I think he mentioned his name but I've forgotten the name. He said that comrade stabbed Maletsatsi with a knife. That's how Maletsatsi's case ended."

MS MOLOISANE: Now you said Maletsatsi knew a lot about the ANC. Was there anything wrong if she knew a lot about it?

MR RADEBE: There was nothing wrong.

MS MOLOISANE: And you said an order that she be killed was issued because she knew a lot. Can you just elaborate on that?

MR RADEBE: When I said she knew a lot, I was saying she knew our activities. Now that she was in that place we were going to be an easy target. Our place of hiding was going to be attacked by the police, and our stuff was going to be confiscated. We used places such as the churches, there's something we called DLB. It was a place where we would put our stuff. Now we realised that we were going to lose a lot of things.

MS MOLOISANE: Now from what you are saying, are you implying that you were worried that she would impart the information to the other side?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: I have no further questions, Madam Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Moloisane. Ms Thabethe do you have any cross-examination?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair. Mr Radebe besides the evidence that you have given today, do you still maintain what you had written in your affidavit, on pages 147 and 148 of the bundle?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: In that affidavit, you stated that one of the people you were with when you hunted for Maletsatsi, Page 128 paragraph 6, was Bonga Khumalo, and when Bonga Khumalo was asked, was questioned yesterday about his presence when you were hunting for Maletsatsi, he denied it. What is your response to his denial?

MR RADEBE: Yes. He disagreed correctly. It's true.

MS THABETHE: What is true? The fact that he denied?

MR RADEBE: When he says he was not present when Maletsatsi was hunted.

MS THABETHE: So can you explain why you included his name?

MR RADEBE: The person who came to the prison to take this statement I think the names that I mentioned to him were more than the names that he has written down. Many times when we were hunting for someone we would be many, and comrade Bonga Khumalo would ultimately receive such information. I think that's how it came to his knowledge.

MS THABETHE: But right now, just before this, I asked you whether you still maintain what you had said in this affidavit, and you said yes. So are you changing your statement now?

MR RADEBE: Can I inform ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Radebe. Can we observe some rules of decency. ...(indistinct), this is our Evidence Leader. Please try and be polite. I can see that there has not been any observance of rules of decency. It's getting into my nerves.

MR RADEBE: The Committee should actually forgive me, I am not a Mosotho, I'm a Zulu, and I'm trying my best to speak in Sotho. Now if I make mistakes, please Committee forgive me. ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: If that is so, speak in Zulu. We have translators who will translate what you are saying in Zulu. Even in Zulu, don't say this woman. Her name is Ms Thabethe or just refer to her as Evidence Leader.

MR RADEBE: My apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to give your evidence in Zulu?

MR RADEBE: I do not prefer Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: You said now the reason why you are making such mistakes which borders on indecency is because you are Sotho speaking but Zulu.

MR RADEBE: That is correct, but I'm saying I don't like Zulu. I only speak Zulu when I am at home. But the language that I communicate easily with is Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Just don't make that mistake again, and don't give, I think the reason that you have advanced, it's uncalled for.

MR RADEBE: I promise.

MS THABETHE: Can you then Mr Radebe explain why, when I asked you if you still adhere to the statement, you said yes, if there are things contained in the statement that you don't agree with?

MR RADEBE: Maybe the mistake came from the statement taker, or I must have put it differently and the statement taker did not write it down the way I put it to him or her.

MR LAX: Mr Radebe, this statement has been read to you by your lawyer, is that right?

MR RADEBE: I am seeing the statement now.

MR LAX: You saw the statement the last time you testified. You confirmed it had been read to you. It's the same statement.

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, even after I gave my statement it was read to me.

MR LAX: So, it's nothing unusual, you were asked if you confirmed the contents of that statement and whether you still stood by it, and you confirmed that. Correct?

MR RADEBE: Correct.

MR LAX: Well let's not have any weak excuses then, please.

MS THABETHE: In your evidence you have stated that besides Kennel Malekwani, Mr Khumalo also gave you, sorry not Mr Khumalo, Mr Mabusa Ndlovu also gave you an order. Is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MS THABETHE:†††Can you explain why you didn't include that in your statement? Instead, you said, on page 148, paragraph 9

"...during 1993 from Zone 12 Sebokeng, Sebokeng were experiencing a similar problem that we had had. We were informed by Mamuso Mhlongo."

My question is why didn't you highlight it, the fact that he had given you orders to kill Maletsatsi as well? Especially after you had highlighted the fact that he spoke to you about having experienced a similar problem in Zone 12 at Sebokeng.

MR RADEBE: Why I did not mention Mabusa is because I heard this from Kennel.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were in fact instructed, ordered by Kennel and not Mabusa.

MR RADEBE: It's Mabusa. Kennel's order was, we were many when he informed us. I would say it's an order because he was informing the comrades who were present that morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't Kennel advising students?

MR RADEBE: ...(not translated)

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he give you a message, that Ms Maletsatsi was now staying with the IFP?

MR RADEBE: Did I hear you correct? Your question started with pupils.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I have now rephrased my question. Did Paulus not tell you that? Did he not say that Maletsatsi was now part of a group that were assaulting people, and that she was now taking her friends who were your comrades, to IFP, and that she must killed. That is what I wrote in my notes.

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a five minute adjournment.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Radebe what was the political affiliation of Thandi Dlamini?

MR RADEBE: She was a member of the women's league.

MS THABETHE: Were you in constant communication with her, as members of the SDU?

MR RADEBE: If there was something urgent, it was possible to meet her.

MS THABETHE: Why I'm asking this question, it's because maybe before I come to that, did you know Makasas Gampu very well?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: What political affiliation was she?

MR RADEBE: She was a supporter of the ANC.

MS THABETHE: Did you have an opportunity to read her statement which we are also in possession of? From page 185 to 188. The typed version. Did you get an opportunity to look at it?

MR RADEBE: Yes

MS THABETHE: What is your comment to the fact that it appears from Ms, from her statement that Maletsatsi, Makasas, and the other girls that you had suspected to be in associated with the IFP, were actually kidnapped by the IFP, and not that they had gone to the hostel out of their own free will?

MR RADEBE: I dispute what is in Makasas statement. She doesn't say Maletsatsi was, Maletsatsi and her friends were kidnapped.

MS THABETHE: Are you saying she didn't say it, or you dispute the fact that she, they were kidnapped.

MR RADEBE: I'm saying she is not saying in her statement that Maletsatsi was kidnapped, no. Maletsatsi was helping them.

MS THABETHE: Was helping them, who? Who is them?

MR RADEBE: She was assisting Dondo and Dada and other members of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: It will be better maybe Ms Thabethe to facilitate progress that you refer Mr Radebe to specific paragraphs and then put your questions.

MS THABETHE: Mr Radebe before I refer you to the specific paragraph, who do you understand that, according to your understanding, who was kidnapped by the IFP people?

MR RADEBE: I would say the IFP people kidnapped girls from the township.

MS THABETHE: Maybe then I should you refer you to paragraph 5 of Makasas Gambu's statement, where she says that, I'll start, she says

"...Ndondo came back to us and spoke to Maletsatsi and asked her to tell us that they have a car and they can take us back home."

She says:

"...I refused to accept the offer. The other two came. They asked us the same question. I refused. They then suggested that we go outside because it was noisy inside."

Okay, further on down, in paragraph 6, she says,

"...They then spoke to us again and asked us to get into the car. I refused to get into the car, and Panda, who was among these three guys left me and got into the car. We left to a certain house. They told us this is where they keep their weapons, etc. etc."

Do you have any knowledge about this?

MR RADEBE: That's, this is Makasas' statement. I see it in her statement.

MS THABETHE: Sorry, I missed that. You?

MR RADEBE: I see it in her statement.

MR LAX: Ms Thabethe sorry, before you go any further with this line of questioning. I've reread these sections. There's nothing in these sections that suggests Maletsatsi was abducted.

MS THABETHE: I agree Mr Lax, but if you read further on, Makasas was also assaulted, or she claims in her statement that she was assaulted by the applicant, so that's where I'm getting to.

MR LAX: You see the issue is that, the issue here is Makasas may have been abducted, that's patently clear from the statement. You put it to the witness that Maletsatsi was abducted along with them. And it's that area that I'm concerned about, because the statement doesn't say that. So maybe you just want to change your question, or put it in a different way, or whatever.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Lax. Mr Radebe I would like to withdraw the fact that Maletsatsi was kidnapped since it doesn't say so in Makasas' statement, but would you agree with me that Makasas was kidnapped on the said day?

MR RADEBE: I agree. She is saying it.

MS THABETHE: Before you actually read about it, did you know about this information before?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: From where?

MR RADEBE: From her. She told us, and at that moment we already knew

MS THABETHE: But according to her statement, Mr Radebe, you had visited her and you assaulted her. Why did you assault her?

MR RADEBE: Did I assault him as John Radebe or did we assault her?

MS THABETHE: According to her statement on page 188, paragraph 19, she states that

"...I heard Mabusa or Bamajiga and John Radebe looking for me. They came,"

She says:

"...they came home at night and they assault me with the butt of a gun."

So they includes you. I would like you to explain whether do you know anything about this, was she assaulted?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I agree.

MS THABETHE: Do you agree that she was assaulted?

MR RADEBE: I agree.

MS THABETHE: Why was she assaulted?

MR RADEBE: There are many ways that one can use to get information out of a person. It will only depend on the co-operation of a person involved whether he or she is prepared to give information.

MR LAX: The question was, when was she assaulted?

MS THABETHE: Why? Why?

MR LAX: I beg your pardon, I thought you said when. Humble apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the reason why you assaulted her was to extract information?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: After you knew that she had been to the hostel?

MR RADEBE: I think that was after that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you already knew that she had been to the hostel. That appears ...(intervention)

MR RADEBE: And that she was kidnapped.

CHAIRPERSON: And that appears from your statement, your affidavit, as from page 14 ...(intervention)

MR RADEBE: I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: And you thought, and you knew that she had been kidnapped because of Maletsatsi?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why would you assault her? This is your comrade.

MR RADEBE: I agree she was. We were assaulting her because she had disappeared again.

CHAIRPERSON: But hasn't it been your evidence that the reason why you were so against Maletsatsi was because she was kidnapping your comrade women, and taking them to the hostel and choosing men to sleep with them? I thought that was the grain of your evidence?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why should you assault your very own comrade that you knew she had been kidnapped by Maletsatsi and had been subjected to a traumatic experience, being forced to sleep with men at the hostel?

MR RADEBE: I agree with the Committee, she was kidnapped first. Yes. She was kidnapped, I do agree. But then, she, afterwards, she disappeared and it transpired that she was at Kwamadala. Now we got information that Makasas is no longer among us. She is back in.

MS THABETHE: Mr Radebe are you suggesting that after Makasas has, had undergone through being raped and being kidnapped, to the hostel, she thereafter went there again? Is that what you are suggesting? To say that?

MR RADEBE: I am not saying that, I'm saying it was rumoured that she went back. I'm not saying she went back. It was rumoured. We were told that she has returned back.

MS THABETHE: So would it be correct that you were, you didn't have proof that she had gone back there?

MR RADEBE: I agree.

MR LAX: Mr Radebe, what person in their right mind would, after having undergone such a terrifying ordeal, go back to the very place where they had experienced such humiliation? I mean, really, how could you not comprehend such a thing? How could you believe such rumours? That any normal person would find very, very difficult to believe.

MR RADEBE: I'm saying this because the one abductee, Nondlela, got married in there, got married there. She got married.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we know that, but what we find most distressing with your evidence is that you are seeking to rely on the fact that Maletsatsi was hated by your community because she was instrumental in the kidnapping of your women comrades, and she didn't stop there, she would take them to the hostel and she would choose men to sleep with them, stripping these poor girls of their dignity. Subjecting them to rape, and you believed these women when they came back to report that they had been subjected to this ordeal through the assistance of Maletsatsi. You believe them, didn't you?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why then should you assault Makasas, when she had told you that she had been subjected to a traumatic experience of kidnapping, rape by a big group of hostel dwellers, through Maletsatsi's assistance, do you think she could then willingly go back and subject herself to being raped again?

MR RADEBE: Can I inform the Committee that it was upon our shoulders to investigate, because we went to her home, we asked them where she was, they told us that they did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: According to what Maletsatsi said, Makasas states in her affidavit, is that Gogo was also punished by a whole group of comrades, who were demanding an explanation about their whereabouts. Are you aware of that?

MR RADEBE: I do not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: According to Makasas, in her affidavit, she states that Gogo was amongst those girls who were severely punished by the comrades who demanded to know where they had disappeared to, and they had to give an explanation about the kidnapping and the terrible ordeal that they had been subjected to whilst they were at Kwamadala Hostel?

MR RADEBE: It came to my knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not there?

MR RADEBE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know about that assault on these women who had been subjected to such an ordeal before you went to Makasas?

MR RADEBE: ...(not translated)

CHAIRPERSON: Was that before you went to Makasas?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you then have to go to Makasas? What information did you want, if you knew what kind of information had already been extracted from the girls who had been kidnapped and gang raped by hostel dwellers?

MR RADEBE: Makasas came back to the township. She told us, she informed us as to what was happening, and we accepted that. We accepted the version of what happened to Kwamadala. Makasas spent a few weeks, and afterwards she vanished and we did not know her whereabouts.

MS THABETHE: Mr Radebe, I don't understand, because I won't venture into this point any further but, according to her evidence, she was called by comrades, she explained, they were punished, then you went to her house again, you assaulted her. My question to you is that, was it common for SDU members to do this, to punish their own people, especially ladies?

MR RADEBE: It was not common for comrades to assault other comrades.

MR LAX: But you didn't seem to have any problem hitting her to try and get information out of her.

MR RADEBE: I agree.

MR LAX: So, was that common then? Did you interrogate other people in the same way?

MR RADEBE: When comrades heard something about me as a member of the organisation, they had to come to me and ask me questions, and it depended on me whether I would be co-operative or not.

MR LAX: That wasn't the question.

MR RADEBE: What is the question sir, so that I can respond?

MR LAX: The question was, did you assault other members that you interrogated, other comrades that you interrogated?

MR RADEBE: Other comrades?

MR LAX: Precisely.

MR RADEBE: Yes, it happened that a person who was a card carrying member of the ANC, and he had stolen from someone, he was seen stealing from someone.

MR LAX: It's a simple question. Did you or did you not assault other comrades when you interrogated them? Yes or no? Don't give me a long story about ...(indistinct)

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you. So you did assault other comrades?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Now, did you punish other comrades?

MR RADEBE: To assault and to punish I do not get the difference.

MR LAX: Well the first point was that you assaulted them while you were interrogating them, while you were questioning them.

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR LAX: The second issue, and why do you question somebody, to get information to decide whether or not they are guilty of something. Isn't that so?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: And once you've decided they are guilty then you punish them, right?

MR RADEBE: We were not involved in the street committees. When a criminal was troublesome we were then called.

MR LAX: Well you agreed, when the question was put to you earlier, that you were involved in punishing this woman, as she indicated in her statement.

MR RADEBE: I agree, yes.

MR LAX: So, once you interrogated people and you got the information, did you punish them? Yes or no?

MR RADEBE: Can you repeat your question.

MR LAX: Once you interrogated people, and you got the information out of them, and you decided that you were guilty, that they were guilty, did you punish them?

MR RADEBE: Yes, we would punish such a person.

MR LAX: What kind of punishment did you impose? Give us some examples.

MR RADEBE: When a person stole from a member of the community, we would use sjamboks and lash that person.

MR LAX: What other kinds of punishment did you dispense?

MR RADEBE: The police stations did not accept cases at that time.

MR LAX: Don't tell me nonsense. What other kind of punishments did you dish out? I'm not interested in why you did it. What did you do?

MR RADEBE: A person would be killed, sir, if necessary. Would be shot.

MR LAX: So you would kill them, you would sjambok them, what else would you do to them? Anything else, or was that it?

MR RADEBE: Tyres were available sir, to burn them.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Can I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Mr Radebe, did you know, did you have any information of who Maletsatsi's boyfriend was?

MR RADEBE: No, I did not.

MS THABETHE: You did not know that Ndondo, Dondo, was Maletsatsi's boyfriend?

MR RADEBE: I did not know. I know a person that has a child with Maletsatsi, and I don't know him by name, I only know him by sight.

MS THABETHE: Do you know who Ndondo is?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Who is he?

MR RADEBE: One of the people who killed the community of Sebokeng.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe is it fair to put the question as you put it to him? If he knew that Ndondo was Maletsatsi's boyfriend, without indicating what is contained in the statement with regard to how Maletsatsi befriended Ndondo.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, I just wanted to ascertain whether he knew who Ndondo was and whether he knew that Ndondo and Maletsatsi were boyfriend and girlfriend.

CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't appear to me that they were much of a girlfriend and boyfriend when they were kidnapped.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair if you check in page 185 paragraph 4 of Gambu's statement.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm fully aware of that, and that's why I'm asking you, because according to the explanation given by Makasas they became girlfriend and boyfriend, if they ever did, on the day when they were abducted.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair can you allow me to proceed? I hope I'll show why I'm asking, I'm asking him this.

CHAIRPERSON: If there is any light, let's do so, bearing in mind that we are under constraints to time.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Radebe where was Ndondo residing?

MR RADEBE: I do not know.

MS THABETHE: All you know is that he was a what, a someone who killed in the community?

MR RADEBE: I thought you referred to where he stayed in the township. He lived in Steel Park or Kwamadala.

MS THABETHE: Now, my question to you Mr Radebe, is that, is it not possible that Maletsatsi, who was your comrade, who also, according to Nicoleen Gambu was a girlfriend to Ndondo, is it possible that she decided to stay at Kwamadala Hostel as you have suggested earlier on because she feared your questioning and your punishments and your assaults? Is that possible?

MR RADEBE: I don't think it's possible.

MS THABETHE: Considering the fact that she didn't have parents, and the shack that she had been using was being used by you comrades, and considering the fact that you had assaulted other people who had been kidnapped at Kwamadala Hostel, do you think it's not possible that she might have sought refuge at Kwamadala Hostel where she had a boyfriend?

CHAIRPERSON: You are aware that there is no basis that, there is no basis on which you can rely that she might have feared for her life or having fallen in love with Ndondo, no basis whatsoever.

MS THABETHE: That's why Madam Chair I said is it possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but now you know you expect him to respond to what you yourself are speculating about. This is sheer speculation, and there is no basis even for that speculation. At least if there was some ground that had been laid for you to at least base your information and your opinion on, then it would be a fair question to put to Mr Radebe. I think it's very unfair.

MS THABETHE: I will leave it at that then Madam Chair. In your statement in page 148 you say when you found Maletsatsi at Thandi's place, you decided, it's on paragraph 8, you decided to take him to the ANC office. Is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: But on the way you decided to shoot her. Is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Can you explain why you changed your mind, why you didn't take her to the office but decided to shoot her?

MR RADEBE: An order had been issued out and the police were troubling, were a trouble in Small Farm at that time. We had received information from comrade Makasas and them. We had received ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When had you received information from comrade Makasas?

MR RADEBE: Excuse?

CHAIRPERSON: You say you had received information from comrade Makasas and others. Was it the information that you extracted after you had assaulted her, or was it before you assaulted her?

MR RADEBE: This is the information we got before we assaulted her.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, notwithstanding the fact that you had believed her then, you decided not to believe when she was again abducted possibly.

MR RADEBE: Can I please explain to the Committee. I said she came back from the kidnap, and nobody assaulted her. We believed her. All of us. And she disappeared afterwards, and we went to her place to enquire about her whereabouts. They said they did not know where she was. Her other sister was an active member who participated in the activities of the women's league. She said she did not know where Makasas was.

CHAIRPERSON: On that point I don't think it really turns on anything in respect of your application. You have now seen her explanation about her disappearance, which appears on page 187 and at paragraph 16, that she was ordered by her parents to go to Tembisa. And then if you check again paragraph 19, the reason why she later came back to her home was after she had again tried to avoid the comrades who were harassing her simply because she was once abducted and subjected to long hours of rape by a gang who stayed at Kwamadala Hostel. Were you sensitive at all to her plight? When you heard about her kidnapping, and the fact that she had been gang raped repeatedly for weeks? If you say you were sensitive, what did you show as comrades, about your sensitivity? How did you show your sensitivity towards her plight? Did you read her statement? She says neither her parents even believed her.

MR RADEBE: After the kidnap we believed her, and we were deeply disturbed about Maletsatsi leading our comrades into the hostel. Yes, I see here that her parents took her to Tembisa, but Lebohang was her sister. She could have told us that she was in Tembisa and we would understand it, but they did not know her whereabouts when she disappeared the second time.

CHAIRPERSON: But why were you consistently asking about her whereabouts, if you were so sensitive to her plight? You as comrades.

MR RADEBE: Makasas was one of our comrades. We were taking part together in the Matsani cultural group, singing together, and she disappeared. Not that we were surveilling, we were guarding her, no, we just wanted her as a comrade, and her family could not tell us where she was. Afterwards we got information that she had gone back.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you went back to her house to ask about her whereabouts out of concern not because you suspected that she had gone back to the hostel and to be a police, an IFP informer, or?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were asking out of concern all the time?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now explain sir why you then proceeded to assault her.

MR RADEBE: She was back. Makasas where were you? She tells us that she was in Tembisa. We asked her why do members of your family not know that you were in Tembisa. We don't know it, your sister doesn't know it, the people that live with you in the house do not know it that you were in Tembisa. Now this puzzled us, we did not know what was happening. Yes, the first time we understood how she was abducted, but now the second time was really puzzling.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not believe her when she told you that she had been to Tembisa? Did you really expect that she could go back to where she had been subjected to such trauma? Did rape to you as comrades mean nothing at all? Did it not indicate that if you wanted to strip a woman of her dignity all you needed to do was to rape her?

MR RADEBE: We knew that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did you suspect that a woman who had been subjected to being gang raped would go back to Kwamadala Hostel and allow herself to suffer the same fate?

MR RADEBE: Chairperson, some of them went back. We never thought that she would go back, but because we did not know where she was from we would not accept her among us, she would be a timebomb, and the way she was talking to comrades showed that she was looking for information, and after that, after the assault, we believed that she was not coming from, she was not coming from Kwamadala.

MR LAX: Mr Radebe this Majiga, was he one of your comrades?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Was he part of your unit?

MR RADEBE: He was in the Small Farm unit.

MR LAX: Do you see what she says here, how he kept hassling her?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Do you not think that that was a good enough reason for her to be terrified and to be sent by her family somewhere else?

MR RADEBE: That she was hassled by Majiga is new to me.

MR LAX: Well you see not all your comrades accepted what she said. Clearly from what she's saying here others didn't accept it. Do you see that?

MR RADEBE: It's not all the comrades who I do not understand.

MR LAX: I don't know what you're asking me.

MR RADEBE: Can you please repeat the question. I wanted to respond, but I did not understand it.

MR LAX: No problem. What I'm saying to you is, is it not clear to you that not all of your comrades understood her plight, understood what she had been through. Some of them like Majiga persisted in asking her questions about where she had been.

MR RADEBE: I would not know that because Makasas nor Majiga did not tell, inform me about that.

MR LAX: Yes, but you can't dispute that happened as she said it did in her statement.

MR RADEBE: I would not dispute that. I would not confirm that.

MR LAX: All I'm saying to you is in the light of that, you can understand why her family would not have told you where she was because they were terrified that something might happen to her. Not so?

MR RADEBE: I don't know how they took it, but what I know is that all members of the Kamufe family were ANC.

MR LAX: I'm going to leave this. I don't know whether you're just deliberately not listening, or if there's some communication problem. I'll leave it anyway.

MS THABETHE: No further questions Madam Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Radebe, if you look at your application form on page 141, paragraph 7(b), it says there you're an MK underground member. Are you an MK underground member?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: This is not Mr Khumalo's evidence.

MR RADEBE: If the Committee has a problem with that the person who just testified before me provided training.

ADV BOSMAN: He did not testify that you were trained for MK. He said you were on a training course as an SDU.

MR RADEBE: I'm saying I got trained.

ADV BOSMAN: As an MK underground?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: I won't take that any further. What do you understand to be an MK?

MR RADEBE: An MK is a soldier, was a soldier who would fight for his country at the time when the boers were ruling.

ADV BOSMAN: Now who told you that the training course was an MK underground training course?

MR RADEBE: That is Commissar Banda.

ADV BOSMAN: I won't pursue that any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware that there were cessation of hostilities by the MK as a structure, when you allegedly went for your, what has been called a crash course? Are you aware of that? That you therefore couldn't have been trained as an MK? And that's the reason why there was a need for the establishment of SDUs. Because MK had become operationally inoperative.

MR RADEBE: The person who trained me can tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm telling you this as a fact. We have a submission from the ANC together with its undoing Umkhonto weSiswe. You evidence in this regard is completely in discord with the submission by the structure itself. You are mistaken.

ADV BOSMAN: Did I understand you correctly, that your hiding place was in Maletsatsi's shack and that you hid your weapons there?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Now you also, if I understood you correctly, testified that the reason why you felt Maletsatsi had to be killed was because she knew too much. She knew where you were hiding, and she knew where you hid the weapons. Is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Now if you turn to your statement on page 147, you state there, in paragraph 5, the bottom line, now that is the statement relates to the morning after the police had been there,

"...the following morning Majiga Philip and other burned Maletsatsi's shack."

Is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Well then if the shack had been burned surely you could no longer use it as a hiding place. Your weapons could no longer have been there. Do you agree?

MR RADEBE: Can you repeat your question. I want to understand you clearly.

ADV BOSMAN: You said that Maletsatsi had to be killed, when you shot her, because she knew too much. She knew where you stayed in her shack and she knew about the weapons that were hidden there.

MR RADEBE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Then you say in your statement that the shack was burned down. This was before she was killed.

MR RADEBE: Correct.

ADV BOSMAN: So where were your weapons? In another place?

MR RADEBE: When we slept at night each one would take his weapon. Now because of the sounds of the vehicles we all ran out.

ADV BOSMAN: No you don't follow my question. I say that by the time Maletsatsi was killed, the shack was burned down. Is that correct?

MR RADEBE: The shack had been burned already when she was killed.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, so you could not then be scared that she would divulge your hiding place because it was no longer your hiding place. Am I correct?

MR RADEBE: We had more than ten bases. It's not only Maletsatsi's place that we used as our base. She knew many of our hiding places, not only her shack.

ADV BOSMAN: How did she know about the other places?

MR RADEBE: Sometimes it would happen that we go to a night vigil and some of the comrades would be expected to patrol, and Maletsatsi was among a group that was singing for a cultural group, and before leaving for a night vigil we would go past the bases and take what we would need. And we did not hide things, some of the things from them, sometimes when one of the comrades was being sought by the police we would send her, we would send the girls, so that the police or the people do not realise there were people in the yard. That's how she knew about our bases.

ADV BOSMAN: I won't take that any further. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Bosman. Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson. Now I want you to look at page 148, paragraph 6. You say there that comrade Kennel Paulus Malekwane was your unit commander at Small Farms. Do you see that ?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Was he your unit commander?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I was still in Small Farm.

MR LAX: Well then how could you have got an order from Mabusa if you were still in the Small Farms unit and you hadn't yet gone to Zone 12 unit?

MR RADEBE: I think I mentioned that it was in the morning when Kennel mentioned this issue. We were still in Small Farms, and I left the Small Farm unit heading for Zone 12. That's when I told them about this issue, and they had already received the news as well.

MR LAX: No, that's not the case. You were not a member yet of that unit. Isn't that so

MR RADEBE: Which unit?

MR LAX: The Zone 12 unit.

MR RADEBE: When I left Small Farm I was already a member of the Zone 12 unit. I gave them this information because I was already a member.

MR LAX: Your previous evidence is that you hadn't joined the Zone 12 unit at that stage. Do you remember that? You remained a member of the Small Farms unit, and that's why Molekwane was your unit commander. Have you forgotten that?

MR RADEBE: The Committee must please remember, what did I say, I do not remember well, but what I do remember is that I gave them information, when I gave them information I was already their member.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a fully fledged member of the Zone 12 unit in June 1993?

MR RADEBE: 1993?

CHAIRPERSON: My apologies, June 1992.

MR RADEBE: I do not remember well.

CHAIRPERSON: That is your evidence. It's approximately then. You were not precise. You were estimating. According to the evidence of Mr Mabusa however, you initially joined, you were recruited or went into his unit, in May. He then appointed you to go to Sasolburg for a course for a month. When you came back not only were you a member but you were second in charge to him. That's in June 1992.

MR RADEBE: I want to inform the Committee that I do not want to make mistakes as to when did I leave for Sasolburg. I do not remember activities according to days. I would be committing myself.

MR LAX: The simple point is this. On Mabusa Mhlongo's evidence, you weren't in Zone 12 or Small Farms during June 1993. You were in Sasolburg on a training course.

MR RADEBE: Can you repeat your question please.

MR LAX: According to Mabuso Mhlongo you went on a training course. Let me just check something to be absolutely certain. Yes, my note here is fairly clear. You came back from your training in June 1993. The end of June he said. You joined at the end of May. The whole of June you were away on training. You don't know when you came back.

MR RADEBE: Yes, I don't remember.

MR LAX: Now in your earlier evidence you told us that you went on an orientation course. Remember that ?

MR RADEBE: Mabuso Mhlongo said you want on a proper training course, a full training course, and he went with you so he knows what course you went on, because he recommended you for that course. Can you explain to us that?

MR RADEBE: Yes. The person who made arrangements for the course was me. Now I'm requesting the Committee to believe me when I speak because I did the arrangements.

MR LAX: Mr Radebe, we've heard from Bonga Khumalo and from Mabusa Mhlongo, that you as an ordinary member wouldn't have had anything to with your training. They would have organised it for you. You would have been selected to go on the training, but you wouldn't have made the arrangements yourself. That was the way it worked, and they said as much, and you heard that evidence yourself.

MR RADEBE: Yes, I heard.

MR LAX: So how could you say you did the arrangements yourself? That wasn't the policy.

MR RADEBE: I'm not saying the arrangements as in training. Let me put it this way, when the preparations were made for me to go underground.

MR LAX: When Mabusa instructed you to kill Maletsatsi, he says he was alone with you at that time. You have told us that a whole lot of other members of our unit were there. Please explain this.

MR RADEBE: ...(not translated)

CHAIRPERSON: The question refers to Mabusa Mhlongo.

MR RADEBE: I think I said Kennel told us when it was many of us. Your evidence was that Mabusa Mhlongo told you in the company of others like Godfrey, I can't remember all the other names without going back to the details of my note, but you mentioned a few other members.

CHAIRPERSON: Comrade Mabusa, Godfrey, and other members that belonged to the unit.

MR LAX: So there's no mistake here. Your evidence was clear, there were more than just the two of you present when he gave the order. He was very careful in his testimony to say that he was alone with you when he gave you the order. I want you to explain that to us.

MR RADEBE: I can tell this Committee that we engaged in many activities and we did not write these things down. We did not keep a record. The records that were kept were the meetings of the ANC, and mistakes are bound to be made in such activities because I would say here I was involved in such an activity with a certain comrade, while in actual fact I am making a mistake, it was a different comrade, because these things happened a long time ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Without going into a very long story, if you've made such a mistake just say I made a mistake. I mean I'm having recollection difficulties, this thing happened in 1993 and we are now in 1999 and there were quite a number of activities that we were involved in other than this. Just say so without having to bog yourself down into unnecessary details.

MR RADEBE: The Committee must please bear with me when I make mistakes. I never thought that I would appear in 1999 reliving what we did in the past.

MR LAX: Kennel wasn't a member of the Zone 12 unit, was he?

MR RADEBE: He was not.

MR LAX: So how would he be searching for these people, Maletsatsi and her gang, with you?

MR RADEBE: Kennel was in Small Farms.

MR LAX: Look at paragraph 6 on page 148. You say,

"..during the hunting I was with the following comrades, Godfrey Shiya, Kennel, Skosana, Oupa Keswa, Bonga Khumalo, Fani Mkhwanazi and Sipho Tshabalala."

Do you see that?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I agree.

MR LAX: But he wasn't a member of your unit, he was at Small Farms. Your unit was from Zone 12. Bonga Khumalo also wasn't there according to his own testimony.

MR RADEBE: Yes, I said he was not there. Can I explain Kennel's issue in this way? Now when we had in our midst a comrade from Small Farm he would assist us in identifying people, we didn't want to attack members of our own community. He would actually give us the signs that were used during the patrols because signs differed by day.

CHAIRPERSON: You know the question was a very simple question. Is the Kennel that is reflected here in paragraph 6, the same Kennel as Kennel Paulas Malagwane?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If so, did he form part of the hunting that you conducted? Yes or no?

MR RADEBE: Yes, he was there.

MR LAX: Nowhere in this statement, in relation to the killing of Maletsatsi, do you say that Bonga Khumalo gave you the instruction to kill her. No sorry, not Bonga Khumalo, I beg your pardon, Mabusa Mhlongo.

MR RADEBE: Sometimes we think things would happen according to our imaginations, and they would take a different turn. Kennel, Mabusa, it was through Mabusa and it came to me through Kennel.

MR LAX: Now, say that again.

MR RADEBE: I must have been mistaken by thinking that because it was first mentioned by Kennel I was not supposed to mention Mabusa's name.

MR LAX: Why weren't you supposed to mention Mabusa's name?

MR RADEBE: I mentioned Mabusa's name in the first order. I thought it would be improper to write Mabusa in the first one and in the second one. Some of the things we do not include in our applications and thinking that we would elaborate on them when we sit here. Like now, there are many people who stole in the township that were involved ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Yes I don't want to hear about people who stole in the township, just stick to the point. The point is a simple one. Why didn't you mention Mabusa Mhlongo who gave you the direct order, in your statement?

MR RADEBE: I made a mistake by omitting, by not writing him.

MR LAX: Now, just now in your evidence you said the instruction came from Mabusa through Malekwane. Did I hear you correctly?

MR RADEBE: I did not say that.

MR LAX: He didn't say that?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson the interpreter has actually twisted the names.

MR LAX: That's fine, I'm happy to hear that, it really helps us a great deal. Now, you were asked in a letter to tell us which commander gave you which orders. Do you remember that?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: And you basically said

"...the orders to commit the, the commission want to know where I received orders to commit the killing, and they came from the African National Congress office from Paulus Kennel Malekwane, Stanley and Mabusa Mhlongo."

Correct?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: You see that on page 157? Stanley never ever gave you an order to kill anybody, did he?

MR RADEBE: He never gave me an order.

MR LAX: Well then why did you put him here as someone that gave you an order?

MR RADEBE: He was the chairperson of the ANC at the time, and because of my standard of education I cannot draft such letters on my own. I had to dictate to someone.

CHAIRPERSON: You know I would be much better if you gave a much more plausible reason, that you included Stanley because he is part of the leadership. Now you've alluded to that, and now you are diverting from really what should be a very clear response. As a chairperson of the ANC youth league he must take overall responsibility for your action as SDU members.

MR RADEBE: My apologies for extending my answer. I should have given a very brief response.

MR LAX: So, just to help us, why did you say, why did you put his name there?

MR RADEBE: I wanted to explain, I cannot write, I have someone writing on my behalf.

MR LAX: The question you were answering was who were your commanders who gave you the orders. Do you remember that?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Well Stanley never gave you any orders.

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Why did you put him in there as somebody who gave you orders? It's what's written here. It's really quite simple.

MR RADEBE: The person who wrote Stanley's name here is the person who wrote this letter on my behalf. I told him the positions that were occupied by the people and he included Stanley's name and I agreed with him.

MR LAX: Stanley was never your commander. He wasn't even part of the SDU structures.

MR RADEBE: Yes, I agree.

MR LAX: So why did you mention him in the context of your commanders? You dictated the letter, remember?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's no fair. Neither was Mr Malekwane his commander. That is not his evidence.

MR LAX: Was Mr Malekwane in your evidence when you were at Small Farms, your commander?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But he didn't give you the order for this incident, isn't it? He wasn't your commander when you committed this act. When you killed Maletsatsi you were not acting directly on the command of your unit commander?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Wasn't your earlier evidence that when Malekwane spoke to all of you that, early that morning, he issued a command, as a commander. That's what you said.

MR RADEBE: I'm saying I took it from Mabusa because I was already in his unit. The issue of Kennel addressing us when we were in large number, I leave it. Such orders were even issued out at night vigils. A comrade would stand up in front of the people and inform the people as to what happened.

MR LAX: Well then I take you back to paragraph 6 of your statement of page 148

"...comrade Kennel Paulus Malekwane was a unit commander who told us that Maletsatsi and the IFP members must be killed. We began hunting them but could not find them."

Was that not an order to kill them?

MR RADEBE: I agree, it was.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

MR RADEBE: Chairperson, I explained to the person who was writing this letter on my behalf. I told him that Stanley told us to do a clean job. This person said, oh yes, then we must include his name, and then I agreed.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not concerned about what a person told you to do, and you agreeing, when in fact it was not so. We are concerned about why you included persons, and we need plausible explanations why they were included in the context in which they were included.

MR RADEBE: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: I have no questions to put to Mr Radebe. That being the situation, Ms Thabethe if I understood you earlier on, you said the application is unopposed in respect of this incident.

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: In the light of the fact that we have now come to the end of leading evidence in respect of Mr Radebe's application, Ms Moloisane are you in a position to address us?

MS MOLOISANE: I am in a position to address you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed to do so but otherwise if you need it, about five minutes to collate your notes, I know this has been a very protracted matter, we would be very favourable to give you that indulgence. However, if you feel that you are in a position to proceed without any kind of adjournment we would be greatly indebted to you now that we notice that the time almost half past seven at night.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS MOLOISANE ADDRESSES COMMITTEE: Madam Chair I am in a position to address this Committee, and I will start with the second incident, that of Maletsatsi.

Madam Chair and Committee Members, my submission is that there has been full disclosure of these activities as required by the Act, and Madam Chair, I also would like to point out that as far as I am concerned, the applicant tried his best to recall the events of 1992, 1993, that led to the killing of Maletsatsi Marumo. Madam Chair, Committee Members, I agree that it has been a very tedious task for the applicant to recall the sequence of events as they happened then, Madam Chair and Committee Members, and Madam Chair, I, in this regard, would like to draw this Committee's attention to the fact that when this incident took place the applicant was 15, 16 year of age, and it is therefore the reason why he has, or he experiences such difficulty in recalling the sequence of events.

Nevertheless, my submission is that the applicant has established that in committing the said murder, he was acting on the orders. Madam Chair it is not disputed that the said orders came from Mabusa Mhlongo and Kennel Malekwane. Madam Chair it is also not disputed ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: You confuse me now if you include Kennel Malekwane. My understanding of your client's evidence, at least the thrust thereof, is that this was mentioned by Malekwane when they were in Small Farm. As a result of that information he took it to his commander, Mabusa Mhlongo, who then appropriately as a commander of his unit issued the order to have Maletsatsi killed.

MS MOLOISANE: I'm indebted to you Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the crux of the matter is that the applicant in acting in the manner in which he did, that is in killing Maletsatsi, was merely executing orders that had been issued by a person who was in authority, and Mabusa Mhlongo himself testified, Madam Chair and Committee Members, that he was indeed the person in command, and the he did issue such an order, and to some extent that was also corroborated by Mr Bonga Khumalo, that Mabusa Mhlongo, having been an ex-MK cadre, was the unit commander of the unit to which the applicant belonged, and furthermore, Madam Chair, the said Bonga Khumalo also confirmed that the unit commanders had the authority, above all, to issue specific orders. Madam Chair, I therefore ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Without interfering with the flow of your argument, and I hate having to do this, you are now relying on what Mr Khumalo said as the general commander, rightfully so, but hasn't he created a little bit of a problem insofar as the suspect is concerned, because his testimony is that, inasmuch as the commanders had authority to issue specific orders, emanating from his general order, they were also under some kind of obligation to verify information, before acting on that information, and in this case we do not have any such evidence that anything was verified by the commander concerned.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, I have already stated that the applicant was merely an operator. He depended on somebody who had to issue orders, and as to the verification of the allegations levelled against the particular people, or in this case Maletsatsi, it was not encumbent upon the applicant himself to verify those orders. It was the duty of his unit commander, Madam Chair, and having, these SDUs having been recognised by the community, and, my submission is that the applicant had no other way but to comply with orders that were issued by his unit commander who was recognised as his unit commander and who had earned that position by virtue of his having been an ex-MK cadre, and who also had the authority to issue commands.

My submission is therefore that there was a political motive, and that the objective that was sought to be achieved was purely political.

CHAIRPERSON: Which objective did they seek to achieve in respect of the Maletsatsi killing?

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, the applicants they said that Maletsatsi had to be eliminated, and although it was not his own initiative to do so, it was an order, but that he went further to say that it was because Maletsatsi was in possession of vital information concerning their activities, which information was being suspected that she was passing, or imparting.

MR LAX: Is it your argument that he had no alternative but to carry out this order.

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Well then how do you deal with his evidence where he said that he was going to take her, they were going to take her to the office at Small Farms, but then he decided of his own accord that in view of he order, and in view of the information he already had about her, she should just be killed there and then? Just before I finish, doesn't that imply that he used his own discretion at that point in time, and he wasn't just following orders?

MS MOLOISANE: Committee Member Mr Lax if I recall the evidence of the applicant well, the evidence, and that of Mr Mabusa Mhlongo, an order had been issued that Maletsatsi should be eliminated, and surely by taking the applicant, or the decision to take the Maletsatsi to the ANC office for questioning first, was only the applicant's own decision. He had never been told to take him for questioning first. The order was simply that Maletsatsi should be killed.

MR LAX: The question is that he and his comrades, as he testified, were going to take her to the office, not necessarily for questioning, they were going to take her to the office first, to report, as I understood it. Then he of his own according decided well in view of the order, and in view of the other information he already knew, that was his evidence, he was going to kill her there and then. Because he was worried the police might catch them on the way.

MS MOLOISANE: I agree with you Committee Member, but the crux of the matter is an order was issued and he had to carry it out.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are basically saying the question of taking her to the office, which was his decision, does not detract from the fact that his order was to kill her, whether he decided to take her to the office, for whatever reason, that still does not remove the fact that he was acting under orders to kill Maletsatsi, and that's what he ultimately did.

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, it is also an established fact that there was political violence in the Vaal townships during that period 1992, 93, when this incident took place. I therefore submit that the offences that the, the murder of Maletsatsi falls within the ambit of Section 20, Subsection 2, of this Act and that in terms of Section 20, Subsection 3, that context, Three, Section 20, Subsection 3(b) the context in which this act or offence took place, was committed in the course of a political uprising, and we have already heard evidence that this act was clearly associated with a political motive.

MR LAX: Sorry, my understanding of that subsection is that that's intended to deal with situations where people react to a situation like a crowd where the police open fire, or a group of people in the heat of a disturbance do something. This was a premeditated thing. Do you see what I mean?

MS MOLOISANE: I do agree. I concede that it was premeditated, but then it was not just something that came out of the blue. The reason why a decision was made that Maletsatsi should be eliminated, came as a result of the information that the comrades, and in particular Mabusa Mhlongo's unit, had at their disposal, that is to the effect that Maletsatsi had vital information about their activities, that is the ANC activities, or comrades activities, and that she had now joined the other camp, and that she was now imparting information to the other side.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand why you should agree with Mr Lax. Isn't it common cause that there was political turmoil in the Vaal at the time when this incident happened, and you are relying on that Subsection because of that?

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct, Madam Chair.

Am I?

MR LAX: Please continue. We have different understandings of that section, and it's not that material. You are still covered by other sections. I'm just saying my understanding of that specific section B is that it deals with situations where people react to a particular incident. This is not where somebody reacted to an incident, but we don't have the same understanding of that section and I don't wish to burden us with that issue. I still think the issue of the political context of the violence, that's common cause. There's no issue that there wasn't violence at the time. That's not the issue as far as I'm concerned.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, I also would like to draw this Committee's attention to the evidence of the victim herself. That is the, no, I'm sorry I'm now getting in to the grain of the other application. As far as this application is concerned, that is concerning the incident of Maletsatsi Marumo, that is all Madam Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what do you say then about Section 20 Subsection 2 and the Subsections referred to thereunder, under Subsection 2?

NO RECORDING

CHAIRPERSON: To which sub-subsection would your client qualify under?

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members I have already drawn this Committee's attention to Subsection 2(a), subsection, yes, 2(a), any member of which provides that, any member of political, or supporter of a publicly known political organisation, or liberation movement on behalf of or in support of such organisation or movement, bona fide, in furtherance of a political struggle ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We are familiar with the Subsection, you don't have to read it out. Is that all? Is it your submission that he qualifies in terms of that section only?

MS MOLOISANE: My further submission is that he also qualifies in terms of Subsection (f). Because he was acting in the course and scope of his duty and within the scope of his or her express or implied authority. I'm in. I'm indebted to you Madam Chair. A and D.

CHAIRPERSON: And in terms of Section 20 Subsection 3, specifically, which subsection does he qualify?

MS MOLOISANE: A. That is the motive of the person who committed the act omission or offence.

CHAIRPERSON: You've dealt with A and B.

MS MOLOISANE: Subsection A. The applicant was acting in execution of an order.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I take it that's all that you want to address us in respect of the first incident?

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you move to the second incident, I am going to give Ms Thabethe an opportunity to respond, in respect of the Maletsatsi incident.

MS THABETHE ADDRESSES COMMITTEE: Madam Chair in respect of the Maletsatsi incident I have nothing further add to what my learned colleague has said. I'll abide by the Committee's decision.

CHAIRPERSON: You have no position to proffer? You are leaving it in the hands of the Committee?

MS THABETHE: Well Madam Chair if I have to make any position really I would say it appears that the applicant was acting under orders and I would concur with my learned friend that it appears that his act does fall under the ambit of the Act.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Moloisane, you may proceed with the second incident.

MS MOLOISANE ADDRESSES THE COMMITTEE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, as far as the second incident is concerned, that is that of Hapile Ndumo and the attempted murder of Elsie Mokoena, my submission is also that there has been full disclosure as required by the Act.

I further submit that these offences were committed with a political motive and I also wish to reiterate the fact that the Committee and all of us know that there was political turmoil in the Vaal townships during that period and that there were self defence unit, and that these self defence unit were engaged or involved in certain activities within the townships.

I further submit that the both applicants belonged to a unit, a self defence unit. They were both members of the ANC youth league, and both of them belonged to the unit that was headed by Mr Mabusa Mhlongo.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the evidence of one applicant, not the other applicant.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You will recall that Mr Mkhwanazi said the unit was headed by Bonga Khumalo. Now how do we deal with that?

MS MOLOISANE: I do agree with the fact that that was his evidence, Madam Chair, but then I ask this Committee to take into account the fact that Mr Abraham Khumalo was the youngest, in fact he is the youngest of the two applicant, ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: Just for the record, Mkhwanazi was the youngest.

MS MOLOISANE: Mr Mkhwanazi. He was born in 1978 and at the time of this incident in 1992 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He was also fifteen wasn't he?

MS MOLOISANE: He is a year younger than Mr Radebe.

MR LAX: Mr Radebe was sixteen and a half at the time, so if he's a year younger he'd be fifteen.

MS MOLOISANE: I do agree, Madam Chair, but the point I'm trying to drive home, or to bring home, is that Mr Radebe was under the command of Mr Mabusa Mhlongo. Mr Mabusa Mhlongo issued instructions, orders, that Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena should be eliminated, or should be killed, and as far as Mr Radebe is concerned, he acted in furtherance of or in compliance with those orders.

CHAIRPERSON: What weight should be attach to the fact that Mr Mkhwanazi, inasmuch as he was only fifteen years of age, was much longer in that unit than Mr Radebe. Mr Radebe came in quite late to join the unit. Wouldn't one have expected Mr Mkhwanazi to have know the commander better than Mr Radebe? I am saying this mindful of the fact that Mr Radebe was second in charge to the commander of the unit, when he joined it, but he joined it much later. Surely Mr Mkhwanazi would know who is the commander of his unit, and cannot make a mistake with regard to his commander. How does that mistake happen?

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, I do agree that there was that mistake, but, and it is unfortunate, because I am no in a position to can account for that mistake, but the point is that Mr Bonga Khumalo was the overall commander of the Zone 12 self defence unit, and as such Mr Mabusa Mhlongo was subordinate to him and accountable to him to some extent.

CHAIRPERSON: You see what really caused me concern, was Mr Mkhwanazi saying that not only was Mr Khumalo a commander, but he was a commander to whom Mr Radebe was second in charge. That really created more problems to me. It showed a situation where one was aware of the structure and the chain of command. Do you get the problem that we are sitting with?

MS MOLOISANE: I do, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We are not talking of a person who is ill informed of the structure of his unit and the chain of command. He is aware of the structure. He is able to tell you who is on top. He might have honestly mistaken Bonga Khumalo as being a commander by virtue of him having been the general commander of Zone 12, but how does he then go on to mistakenly say Mr Radebe was second in charge to the commander Mr Bonga Khumalo?

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, at this stage we know that Mr Radebe was sort of more senior to Mr Mkhwanazi, but that being the case, the fact that Bonga, I mean Mr Radebe was second in command to Bonga, I mean, puts me in a very difficult position. I cannot take that further, but the only point that I can drive home is that it is true that Mr Radebe was second in charge, or had some kind of authority that had been bestowed on him by Mr Mabusa Mhlongo.

CHAIRPERSON: We are quite aware of that from his evidence, and from the evidence of Mr Mabusa Mhlongo, and definitely from the evidence of Mr Khumalo, but where does the evidence of Mr Mkhwanazi leave us in this regard? What weight should be attach because Mr Radebe inasmuch as he ultimately became second in charge he was a Johnny come late into the unit as it were, and Mr Mkhwanazi was well know. All the witnesses who came in to testify in support of their applications were saying they knew Mr Mkhwanazi very well, they knew Mr Mkhwanazi better than they knew Mr Radebe. But how do we, how do we account for a serious mistake which relates to not only the structure, but the chain of command?

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, I do agree, I do admit that there is that mistake, but as my submission is that that mistake according to the evidence that we have before us is not that material in the sense that Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr, I mean Mr Mkhwanazi said that he got, he had been instructed by Mr Radebe to keep watch on the two girls, and even in his application he did state when there was a sentence, yes, there is a sentence where he is, well a question I mean, where he was being asked if he had been acting under orders or in compliance with orders, whose orders were they, and he mentioned Mr Radebe as the person who had given him orders on that particular day or relating to the event of that day.

CHAIRPERSON: That's neither here nor there, is it? If one takes into account the evidence of Mhlongo, that this order was given to all unit members, which would include Mr Mkhwanazi himself. That to me is the problem. A profound problem. He need not have actually acted on anyone's orders, if one takes account of Mr Mhlongo's evidence.

MR LAX: You see the other problem is that he doesn't even mention Mhlongo as having given that order at all, whereas he, according to Mhlongo, he was present.

ADV BOSMAN: And furthermore, when there was evidence that Mr Radebe asked him, what should we do, and he said I don't know, it gives me a problem if he had an order where he had been present, then he should have said well we are ordered to kill. It give me a problem.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, my submission is that Mr Mkhwanazi himself, on that particular day, according to the evidence, had reduced himself to a subordin, to be subordinate to Mr Radebe. Mr Radebe was very active.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Radebe was an active person from the look of things, but the fact of the matter ids, if one is cognisant to the evidence of Mr Mhlango who was the commander, the members present when he issued the order included Mr Mkhwanazi, and his order was that any of them should kill Ms Ndumo and Ms Mokoena on sight. So the fact that he really acted under orders doesn't take the matter any further. We still are saddled with a profound problem of what weight to attack to Mkhwanazi's evidence which stands in stark contrast to the evidence given by a host of witnesses that you called to support both the applications. I understand your difficulty.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee ...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed to another aspect.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Memebers, I wish to draw this Committee's attention to the fact, to put weight to the lapse of time, the fact that these incidents took place five years ago, more than five years ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Absolutely, we take that into account. Then when we deal with the chain if command, it was not Mr Mkhwanazi's evidence that he could not properly recollect who the commander of his unit was. That was not his evidence. There was no shadow of doubt about who his commander was, so we cannot, outside the context of the evidence before us, take things into account unless the evidence indicates that we should take such things into account. If some doubt had been expressed by Mr Mkhwanazi about the structure of command, then maybe we would definitely have to take that into account. As it is, we were given very clear evidence about who the commander was. He expressed no doubt.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, as far as the aspect is concerned, I leave it in your hands.

MR LAX: Let's move on to another point.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, I wish to draw this Committeeís attention to the evidence of Elsie Mokoena. Elsie Mokoena in her testimony, corroborates what the applicants had said. She actually confirms that she was at some stage summoned for questioning at the garage, although she went on to mention the owner, Mr Hlombani, the person who was in charge, Mr Hlombani. She did confirm that Mr Stanley Gqiba was also present.

She does also confirm that she was rumoured, or that she knew that there were rumours that she was an IFP spy or informer. Therefore, to some extent she corroborates the version of the applicant as far as that is concerned, and Mr Mhlongo himself told this Committee that he managed to find out more about the activities of Elsie Ndumo, Elsie Mokoena and Hapile Ndumo, and that made him to become more cruel, that is in his own words, he said "...that changed me and made me to become more cruel." And because there had been a general command that had been issued, about or concerning the Imidwembe, or Elsie Ndumo, Elsie Mokoena, Hapile Ndumo and other Imidwembes, he confirms that he did in fact issue a command, an order, that whoever saw them, wherever they were to be seen, and whenever they were to be seen, they were to be eliminated.

And the applicant, Mr John Radebe, boldly admits that he is the one who carried out the execution, who executed the Hapile Ndumo and heís also the one who shot Elsie Mokoena, fortunately she survived. And as far as the first applicant is concerned, Mr Abraham Fani Mkhwanazi, he was with John Radebe at the time when these incidents took place, and as lawyers we know that he was merely convicted because of the doctrine of common purpose. But he did not actively ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We are aware that he wasnít convicted on the basis of common purpose. Surely you must know that the evidence of Mr Radebe was that he fired at Ms Ndumo.

MS MOLOISANE: I am indebted to you Madam Chair and Committee Members. As far as the Court record is concerned, he was convicted on direct evidence that was adduced in Court, but my submission is that as far as this amnesty application is concerned he is merely drawn into the picture simply because, and thatís my submission, simply because he actively associated himself with Mr Radebe, although that was not the evidence in Court. Iím merely focusing on the evidence as it is before this Committee. He did not carry out the shooting although he was aware of an order. Mr Radebe admits that he executed the order, and that Mr Mabusa further confirmed that he is the one who had issued that order that they be eliminated.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it really matter Ms Moloisane? We shouldnít waste time on this issue. Does it really matter who ultimately fired a shot? Iím sure if his gun had had the necessary ammunition he would have fired the shot. After Mhlongo had issued the order, he didnít leave the unit because he did not want to execute the order, so letís move on. You donít need to waste time on that one.

The only problem which I have, which I might mention, is that when you mention the evidence of Ms Mokoena you will also have had to have regard to the evidence of Mr Gqiba, that the activities of these women were not public knowledge. Thatís the evidence that was given by Mr Gqiba who was called to support the applicantsí applications, and the applicantsí applicant was founded on the fact that it was common knowledge that these persons were committing certain activities which were considered unacceptable, which therefore rendered them to be enemies of the community.

MR LAX: I might add that Mr Khumalo corroborates that by saying there were people who were shocked at the decision, and he had to explain what had happened. He had to explain to the community. Remember that. So just add that to the issue.

ADV BOSMAN: I also would like to mention that the fact that Ms Elsie Mokoena testified that they had not been found guilty, they had not been given lashes, is perhaps a material matter where it relates to the issue of full disclosure, and Mr Mhlongo, if I remember correctly, did not testify that he was aware of the fact that they had been given lashes.

MS MOLOISANE: As far as Mr Mhlongo was concerned he only received information concerning that incident. He did not have any first hand knowledge. He did not have any first hand knowledge thereof. ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speakerís mike is not activated.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair as far as the issue of full disclosure is concerned, my submission is that Mr Mhlongo, I mean, did not have actual knowledge as to the incident at the garage when the girls were being questioned, therefore I cannot take this matter further in the sense that he did in fact state that he only received information about that incident.

The only person who had information, first hand knowledge, about that incident, was Stanley Gqiba, who had been present during the questioning, and although the two girls had been acquitted at that stage, Mr Mhlongo went on to tell this Committee that he did at some stage throw a hand grenade in to a white car in which Hapile Ndumo and some other girls were travelling, and that the fact that he also saw them, I mean, being involved with, in the harassment of the members of the community, angered him, and that prompted him to issue an order that they should be killed.

My submission is therefore that the killing of Hapile Ndumo and the attempted killing of Elsie Mokoena occurred because of the circumstances that prevailed in the, in Sebokeng at that time. There was political violence, there had been killings, and anybody who had been seen in the company of members or of member of the IFP were perceived to be selling the community out to the IFP and therefore endangering the lives of the members of the community, and that was also aggravated by the Boipatong massacre which had taken place about two months prior to the events of the 16th of August 1993.

I therefore submit that the crimes were committed with a political motive and that there were orders that had been issued that the two girls be executed, and that there has been full disclosure.

MR LAX: Sorry Ms Moloisane, wasnít Boipatong 1992, 17th of June 1992? Was it Ď93, Iím just confused now.

MS MOLOISANE: 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: June?

MR LAX: Yes, it was the 17th of June 1992.

MS MOLOISANE: Iím indebted to you Committee Members, but the experience, I might not be correct as to the year, but the experience that they had that emanated from the Boipatong massacre, prompted the unit commander Mr Mabusa Mhlongo to issue the instructions or the orders that the two girls be killed or be murdered.

MR LAX: You must be very mistaken. Mhlongo didnít mention Boipatong. He knew nothing about the confessions, and he conceded that after I had questioned him. So that couldnít have played any part in his mind.

CHAIRPERSON: What actually prompted him to issue the order, was Mhlongo seeing the two IFP members in the company of three girls, one of whom was identified to be Hapile.

MR LAX: And then later, when he issued the second order, the incident in town, where that group of people including Elsie this time, were harassing people and stealing their groceries and so on.

MS MOLOISANE: Iím indebted to you Committee Members. I have also highlighted those facts. The fact that they were, Hapile was seen travelling in that white car and that a hand grenade was thrown by Mabusa into that car, and the fact that the two girls were seen in the company of alleged IFP members in town.

MR LAX: How do you deal with the fact that although he mentions those two incidents, and he relies on them so strongly, none of the other applicants mention it. The first one or the second one. We can understand Radebe wouldnít have mentioned the first one because he wasnít a member of the unit at that time, but certainly Mkhwanazi would have borne knowledge of it. It would have stood out in his mind as a particularly impressive incident. Nobody mentions these things. These things are all done ex poste facto. In the light of that, what weight do we then place on that evidence?

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, Committee Members, if this Committee recalls the evidence of Mabusa Mhlongo, nowhere in his testimony did he mention the fact that he was with the others when he threw this hand grenade into the car, and we do not also, he also said that he was alone in town when he noticed them. And we do not have any knowledge or any information as to whether this incident were ever elated to the other unit members.

ADV BOSMAN: No we do have,...(intervention)

MR LAX: Iím sorry, with respect, he very clearly told us that he told them about them. His evidence was crystal clear in that. With regard to the hand grenade he told them the next morning, when he dismissed them, when he gave them the order. And with regard to the other one, he said that was why he gave the order and he told them about it. He reported back to his members. So in both instances he, these were important factors in his mind, because heíd tried other investigations although he was unable to elaborate what those were and he made no successes, thatís why these two things were so important. So his testimony was that he did inform his members.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members it is unfortunate that I am not in a position to can explain to this Committee as to why the other, the applicant failed to mention this important fact during their testimony, and the fact, or let me put it this way, I submit that whether the said Mr Mhlongo had actually told them or not, or let us assume that he told them, because that is his evidence, as to why they failed to, the applicants failed to disclose that during their testimony, I cannot account, Madam Chair, Committee Members.

The crux of the matter is that the killing was, and the attempted killing, was in furtherance of an instruction, that is it was in compliance with an order that had been issued by a person who had the authority to issue commands, and that person himself confirmed that he had issued that command, and that command was carried, indeed carried out by Mr Radebe, and he openly admits that heís the one who carried out that act.

CHAIRPERSON: You see the problem with the evidence given by Mr Mabusa Mhlongo and the absence of the aspects testified to by him with regard to although that kept on prompting him to issue the first and the second orders, and more particularly the fact that he discussed all these occurrences with the members of his unit, and he goes on to say both applicants were present during the discussion, is that they usher in some kind of problems when it comes to the motive of the applicants. You already are sitting with the evidence of Ms Mokoena, whose evidence would like to suggest that the motive for the initial abduction at the tavern by both applicants was rape. And thatís why we are asking you these questions. We have to be clear in our minds that these were indeed politically motivated offences, that when they saw them at the tavern they decided to abduct them for no reason other than a political reason. And that is to carry out the order of Mr Mhlongo because of the many activities that Mhlongo was able to elaborate upon, that they did not attempt to elaborate upon. Thatís why we are asking you these questions.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, my submission is that if there was any other motive, apart from the political one, to abduct the girls from the tavern, then the applicants surely had ample time and, to do whatever they wanted to do with the girls. If the motive was to go and rape them, they could have taken them to a secluded place or wherever and carried out their intentions, or whatever they intended to do with the two girls, but because the motive was purely political, they told Elsie Mokoena that she had to go with them to Zone 12, and she was not co-operative, and that is the reason why she was shot at that place before Hapile could be shot.

CHAIRPERSON: When you mention the suspect that they had ample time to have been able to rape them if that was their motive, you will recall that from the evidence of both the applicants as well as Elsieís, that what really interrupted the chain of events, whether those event would have been political or purely criminal, was Elsieís initial resistance immediately after coming out of the tavern. By that Iím just merely trying to address the question of the fact that they had ample time to do whatever they would have wanted to do. That does not remove, however, your argument that if, their offences had been politically motivated. But as to time, even if they had intended to do something criminal, Elsieís resistance I think interfered with the train of events that would have followed.

MR LAX: Plus if I could just add one other aspect. Plus the crowd of people that then gathered, it wouldnít have been very possible for them to rape these girls in front of all these people, which wouldnít have prevented them from killing the girls in front of all these people, because the evidence says that there was a crowd at the time they killed them. At the time they killed Hapile rather, so the crowd wouldnít have stopped them from killing, but it would have stopped them from raping, which then adds a certain plausibility to what Elsie said about the crowd and how they responded to the crowd and so on. It was never put to Elsie that they never said that to the crowd. It was never put to Elsie that the things she alleged they had, Radebe had said to the crowd, werenít said to the crowd.

CHAIRPERSON: It is alleged, in fact it was stated by Elsie, that one of the things that Radebe said to the crowd of people was that if they did not go back because they were becoming a bigger crowd and following them around, he would crush their heads, and that as soon as he said that the crowd fearing for their heads to be crushed, they then dispersed. But the fact is the intervening factor in the whole chain of events immediately after they had been taken away from the tavern was Elsieís resistance, because that really caused the problem, even on the evidence of both Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Radebe.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, if I recall the evidence of Elsie correctly, she was, and that is also the evidence of the applicants, she was at some stage left with a certain Borman Ntjolo, who had to keep guard on her, whilst they went to look for ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: She was left all by herself, whilst Ntjolo and Simon Niti, who is also otherwise known as Zandi, went into the house with Hapile for a period of about five minutes according to Elsie.

MR LAX: Just correct an earlier point. They were left in one of the peopleís, both ladies, two peopleís custody, but that was at a different stage. That was when they went to someone elseís house first. At a later stage they then went to Zandiís house so, but that doesnít change the thrust of the issue. Elsieís evidence was that she didnít know why they went to those places.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact your problem is that there was a time when Elsie alone was left with Ntjolo. And Iím tell you that there was never such an occasion when Elsie alone was left with Ntjolo. There never was such an occasion.

MS MOLOISANE: The fact Madam Chair and Committee Members that I want to highlight is the fact that the two applicants went about looking for ammunition, and if their intention was purely criminal, if they had intended to rape the two girls, surely they could have taken them along and not left them behind when going about looking for ammunition. But because the main reason why they had to go about looking for ammunition was for them to be able to carry out the orders as had been, they had been given to them by their commander ...(intervention)

MR LAX: In that regard, the order was to kill them on sight. They didnít kill them on sight. They were taking them for questioning first. Thatís your clientsí version. They were going to get the ammunition, but they were taking them for questioning. It was only at a later stage that Radebe then decided to forget about the questioning. Again, he makes that decision himself, to forget about the questioning, and then he kills her. Thereís a consistent pattern here, where in both instances, in both events, in spite of an order to kill them on sight he doesnít do that, he then purports to have something to do with questioning them and getting information and what have you, and then at a later stage of his own initiative then carries out the order.

So, thereís some disjuncture there that doesnít make sense, certainly to me, and maybe you can explain that to us or address us on that. If he was so strict about following his orders as he implies and as you are arguing, why then did he do these other little things on his own first, and not carry out the order? The other thing is that itís not a disputed fact that Ntjolo had a knife on him. Why didnít they just stab them, kill them to death with the knife, there and then? If that was their intention.

MS MOLOISANE: I was just about to say that this appears to have been John Radebeís modus operandi not to kill them instantly but to take them for questioning first. But regarding ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But wouldnít you argue against ...(indistinct) and say heís probably enjoyed to torturing people, particularly women. And that the fact that he didnít kill them there and there does not again detract from the fact that he ultimately carried and executed the order that had been given. He was a particularly terrible SDU member who did not mind to walk distances with one of the women who was bleeding from either the neck or the chin, from the evidence of Ms Mokoena she had been shot in the neck. From the evidence led at the trial, she had been shot in the chin, but the fact of the matter is that did not disturb Mr Radebe, simply because that was his make up. He wanted to have them tortured first and ultimately carry out the order to kill them.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, to some extent I agree with the Chair that he decided not, he had decided not to carry out the orders immediately but to go off with the girls, but I do not want to submit that perhaps he enjoyed torturing them before killing them, or before carrying out the orders. That point I never canvassed, neither was it canvassed by my learned friend Ms Thabethe, as to why he went about with them before executing the orders as he had stated.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that was a point that was extensively canvassed, both by Ms Thabethe and members of the Panel, and no plausible explanation could be given by Mr Radebe. So much that I draw an inference which inference would be in his favour in any case. Proceed therefore, but otherwise you may proceed, you are here to make your submissions.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, as far as that point is concerned I donít take it any further. Coming to the knife, the issue of the knife, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you had already covered that, that it was not his way of killing people.

MS MOLOISANE: I donít in his own evidence he said that he, it was a standing rule that they should not touch the victimís blood and that according to him the easiest way to do that, to execute, to carry out the orders, was to use a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed to another aspect.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members I therefore submit that this act, act for which the applicant now seek amnesty fall within the ambit of the Act, and that the murder and the attempted murder were carried out in execution of orders and that there was nothing that the applicant could have done by virtue of the fact that they were members of the self defence unit and had to act in accordance with orders that had been given to them.

MR LAX: Carry on.

MS MOLOISANE: I further submit that this incident for which the applicants are now seeking amnesty fall within the ambit of Section 20 Subsection 2 and Section 20 Subsection 3 A, B and E. And I have no further address unless if the Committee Members still want me to address them on specific issues.

CHAIRPERSON: We are satisfied with what you have addressed us on. We have indicated our difficulties as you were going along with your address, and you have attempted your best to address us on those that we drew your attention to. Ms Thabethe do you have anything to say?

MS THABETHE ADDRESSES THE COMMITTEE: Madam Chair, I find myself in a very difficult position as far as this matter is concerned. The reason being, as an Evidence Leader, I hold a certain view, and as someone who represents the victim I hold a certain view as well. However, as a legal representative for the victims, I think the problem, or the difficulty that I find myself in is that I would argue that with regard to the killing Hapile Ndumo and the attack on Elsie Mokoena, the ...(indistinct) I would argue that it was not proportional in the sense that, proportional to the objective to be achieved in the sense that even Ďthough Mr Mhlongo had testified that there was a thorough investigation as to find out whether they were really spies or not, it also comes from his evidence that there wasnít really any investigation as to prove whether they were spies or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe. Iím definitely on the same wavelength with you. You are saying you are objecting because the offence was not proportional, to what?

MS THABETHE: To the objective that was sought to be achieved.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what was the objective? Wasnít the objective in terms of the evidence led before us by the applicants as well as the witnesses who were called in to support them, very unanimous on this issue of what objective was sought to be achieved by them, and that was to kill them because they were enemies of the people.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair thatís precisely my point, that there wasnít proof as such and there werenít investigations conducted to prove, but maybe let me explain what my difficulty is. My difficult is that we are faced with the applicants who were carrying out an order. Maybe if we were faced with the commanders I would have argued better on behalf of the victims so as to say that there wasnít much investigation done, and probably the basis for having reached the conclusion that they were spies really lacked the relevant investigation that had to go through, and nevertheless, also it was not verified as it was the principle of the ANC to verify such issues.

MR LAX: Isnít the argument this, that on one hand if the applicants are relying on an order, and the evidence points to the fact that that order was probably not given based on the fact of all the other surrounding facts. In other words the probabilities based on the evidence produced by the applicants, in support of the applicants, is that there probably wasnít an order given, or even two orders given, cause if there had been there would have been verification on all those other issues.

MS THABETHE: With due respect Mr Lax, I wouldnít follow that argument because these people were commanders, they were ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: They were foot soldiers, at least one was.

MS THABETHE: No Iím talking about Mr Mabusa Mhlongo who issued the order. He was a commander and really they relied on the order that he had given. So thatís my problem, thatís my difficulty, that I think it would be unfair really to expect of the applicants not to have followed an order because probably it was not properly verified or this was supposed to have been done and it wasnít done.

CHAIRPERSON: If thatís the basis of your argument, itís got nothing to do with proportionality.

MS THABETHE: Maybe I shouldnít have even raised the issue of proportionality, but I was raising it as something I would have raised if maybe the applicants were the actual commanders who issued the order, but now Iím faced with a situation where the applicants are the people who carried out an order, and that limits really my basis for argument, so to say, in opposition of the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Even if they were the commanders, the issue of proportionality would not have come into play at all. Even if they were commanders. The fact that the information had not been verified does not make their action to be disproportionate to the objective that they sought to achieve. However, I understand your argument is that you support the application because it is your contention that the applicants were not in command, they were acting on orders and they had an obligation to obey orders without any room of questioning whether that certain measures had been taken, which measures would then have entailed the verification of information or not, and you say that is something which is beyond what they would have been able to do. They could not question an order. Theirs was to obey, and thatís what they did. Thatís your argument, isnít it?

MS THABETHE: Precisely Madam Chair. Maybe I would request the Panel if maybe they can give me guidance on what they would like to get from me in terms of my opinion pertaining to certain issues. Maybe then I can respond to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well youíve heard us expressing our concern with regard to the evidence given by Mr Mkhwanazi in connection with the structure and the chain of command of his unit, and that given by Mr Radebe. And crisply stated, his evidence was that Mr Radebe gave him an order that day and he obeyed Mr Radebe because Mr Radebe was second in command in the unit and the unit was commanded by Bonga Khumalo. It has transpired of course, during these proceedings, that Mr Khumalo was not a commander of Mr Mkhwanaziís unit. Itís common cause that he was a general commander of the Zone 12 SDU which consisted of four units. Mr Radebe on the other hand states that the order came directly from the commander Mr Mabusa Mhlongo, and he executed the order that was issued by him. Bearing in mind the fact that Mr Mkhwanazi was the long serving member of this particular unit, and that point stands undisputed, what weight should therefore be attached to such a discrepancy?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair my response would be clearly the evidence of Mr Radebe contradicts that of Mr Mkhwanazi with regard to who issued the order. Nevertheless, I think the Committee shouldnít attach too much weight to that contradiction because Mr Mkhwanazi, in his application he says, where heís asked where he got the order from, he says from John Radebe, which suggests that he regarded John Radebe as his immediate commander. To me it appears as if he really does not understand, but thatís my own opinion, the real question of what is meant by command, because having mentioned Bonga Khumalo, itís not far fetched from the truth that Khumalo was a commander of these four units, even Ďthough he was an overall commander not a unit commander, and itís also not too far fetched, the fact that John Radebe was a second in command, but the problem is he wasnít a second in command to Bonga Khumalo but to Mabusa.

MR LAX: Isnít the other problem that Mkhwanazi doesnít know anything about the order that he should know about, that Mabusa Mhlongo allegedly gave, because he was present according to Mabusa Mhlongo when that order was given. In his application he says nothing about that order. Now that puts a direct conflict between the two applicants on where the order emanated from.

ADV BOSMAN: In fact Ms Thabethe Mr Mhlongo testified that he twice gave the order in the presence of Mr Mkhwanazi.

MS THABETHE: I think I understand the dilemma Members of the Committee. Also itís, unfortunately itís not clear and it wasnít, we did not question the applicant about the sad fact as to why he did not mention Mr Mabusa Mhlongo as the commander. I donít know whether he was questioned ...(intervention).

MR LAX: The reason was that that evidence wasnít before us at the time. It was never put to him by Counsel, it wasnít put to him by anybody else.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not the duty of anyone else to put that kind of evidence in order to clear the air. Thatís why applicants are represented by lawyers. I donít want such things being imputed to any persons having to try and clear the air in that regard. Mr Mkhwanazi was properly represented, and Ms Moloisane had the fortunate advantage of consulting and knowing the testimony of the two applicants. She must have anticipated what would be a problem in this regard.

I am addressing this to the Honourable Member of my Panel, as well as Ms Thabethe. In case youíve forgotten that the applicants lead evidence and has to comply with the requirements of full disclosure. Indeed we have from time to time assisted as it is fit and proper for us to do when such things do come to our attention, but that is why applicants are legally represented, so that such mishaps do not happen.

Coming back to what you earlier on stated, Ms Thabethe, you are saying that itís possible that Mr Mkhwanazi might not have understood his structure very well, and the he must have mistaken Mr Radebe as being the commander. You have referred to his written application form, and pertinently I suppose to question 11 A and B, which requires of an applicant to indicate whether the act was committed on the orders of any particular person. Yes, there is a reference to Mr Radebe, but that does not mean that Mr Mkhwanazi did not understand the structure of command. You will recall that he led evidence before us and in his evidence he was able to paint a very vivid picture of his structure, which he stated quite unequivocally that it was a unit commanded by Mr Bonga Khumalo. He went on to say Mr Radebe was the second in command.

For you, therefore, to infer that he might have thought Mr Radebe to be the commander, would under those circumstances, be incorrect.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, can I clarify what I meant? I think we, there was a misunderstanding. What I meant is not that he did not understand the structure, but what I said is reading from the application when asked who gave the order and he says John Radebe, and he doesnít say for example here Bonga Khumalo, he, what Iím suggesting is, itís the question to me that is not properly understood as to who exactly was he supposed to mention.

Nevertheless on the same breath I do acknowledge the fact that if there was that problem maybe it would have been better for him to mention the three of them because it does mention John Radebe as the second in command, he does mention Bonga Khumalo and maybe it would have been proper if he mentioned Mabusa Mhlongo as well. So, what I was saying is that the misunderstanding is on the question and the answer as to who really the commander was, because Bonga Khumalo was a commander, but not of the unit, so itís not far fetched from what he said, that Bonga Khumalo was a commander. The only mistake is that he says heís a commander of the unit and not of the whole structure, and itís not too far fetched from the fact that he says John Radebe was the second in command. I think that the problem is that he says second in command to Bonga Khumalo and not Mabusa Mhlongo. Thatís what I meant, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to the fact that he was the long serving member in that unit? Do you still say that he would still be liable to mistakes as to who is his commander? He was there much longer than Mr Radebe.

MS THABETHE: Itís a difficult one but Madam Chair, I think as a member of an SDU he would be expected to know who his commander is. At the same time, like my learned friend has said, he seemingly was young, and even Ďthough he might have been long standing as compared to Radebe, but probably Radebe was more experienced than Mr Mkhwanazi with relation to the activities and the structures and the whole, you know, how the SDU activities were operated and whatever. So what Iím saying is even Ďthough Mr Radebe could have been the last one to get into the structure, probably he was much more experienced than Mkhwanazi, but thatís just an argument, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much to you Ms Thabethe and Ms Moloisane. You obviously are aware that the time is now 9 oíclock. We have kept correctional services much longer and we are really indebted to their accommodation with regard to the time. We have kept Mr Radebe and Mr Mkhwanazi much longer, itís been a very long day for them as well. I think we should bring these proceedings to a close now that you have concluded your legal argument. The hearings also at this venue will now come to a close tonight.

We thank Ms Moloisane and Ms Thabethe for their assistance that they have rendered to the Panel. We also are eternally grateful to members of the Department of Correctional Services for their accommodation which has been just wonderful. We wish to thank our interpreters who have really been more than accommodative. It is a very difficult thing to translate simultaneously. It requires focus, it requires attention, and it tires one very easily. They have been able to accommodate us throughout the week because we have had to stay much longer than we usually do in order to try and finish our roll that was set down for this venue.

We also wish to express our warm gratitude to the media who equally have been extremely accommodative. Our gratitude to our logistics officer Ntheki for the wonderful logistical support that she has offered us during our stay at this venue. I wish to thank the members of the public who are now absent because of the lateness of the hour. They had to leave early because they are from Sebokeng and surrounding districts, and lastly I would like to thank the Members of my Panel for the accommodation that they also gave this matter. It is very difficult to sit, listen, be focused, write notes, as a Committee and their assistance and participation in these proceedings have been indescribable. Thank you very much. Without forgetting the wonderful service which is always offered by our transcribers. They have been also very accommodative. Thank you very much to you all.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.

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