ADV DE JAGER: What language would you speak?
MR VEYI: Xhosa.
NIMROD VEYI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman. I just want to introduce this Bundle which I have before me. Mr Chairman, also in this incident, in this case there is what I see on page 574 that the initial application in the Form 1 has been part of the Bundle, and there on page 580, there is an annexure referring also to the kidnapping of Simelane and then you will not also that there is also a reference to a statement made by him. Now, in this instance also a statement has been obtained from the Investigating Officer attached to the staff of the Attorney General, and may be mark this as Exhibit ZV for Veyi? Shall we start again with AA? I beg leave to hand it up. As I say the initial form is in the Bundle, I don't think that needs to be marked as an exhibit, it is a statement. I am just going to hand up the statement which will be marked Exhibit AA. I am going to hand it up.
CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)
MR LAMEY: The previous one is of Mr Mkhonza.
MR VISSER: Could my learned friend just tell us Chairperson, whether what is stated in AA is the same as in Exhibit S at page 2, it will be very helpful if we didn't have to follow two documents.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman ...
MR VISSER: (Microphone not on)
MR LAMEY: That has also just been passed to me, I don't know what that is.
MS THABETHE: It is a statement from Mr Qobe, he is an implicated person in this application of Mr Veyi.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, Exhibit AA, you also have before you Exhibit S1, now S1 is a supplemented application which had been drafted by myself after consultation with Mr Veyi. In my submission it corresponds with AA, but there are certain footnotes where that statement has been amplified, supplemented, and obviously the questions relating to 9(a)(i) and other further questions relating to political objectives and orders, are also then contained in Exhibit S which are not part of AA.
ADV DE JAGER: (Microphone not on)
MR LAMEY: Yes, it the typed version of the written version I understand attached to the back. Mr Chairman, at the back of the written statement of Mr Veyi, you will find also a typed. That is how it was received from the Investigating Officer of the Attorney General.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, then we will have to mark the hand-written one, AA1 and the typed one, AA2.
MR LAMEY: AA2? Mr Veyi, can you just have a look at page 754 up to and including page 580 of the Bundle which is before you? Is it correct that this is the initial form that you completed and when your initial application for amnesty was submitted and which is dated 11 December 1996, and signed by you before a Commissioner of Oaths? Is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes.
MR LAMEY: Now you refer in that initial application to a statement, is that the statement which you had made to the Attorney General, the staff of the Attorney General?
MR VEYI: Yes.
MR LAMEY: The document which is before you now, which is Exhibit AA1 is that a copy of that statement which you have made and which is signed by you?
MR VEYI: Yes.
MR LAMEY: And Exhibit AA2 is a typed version of that, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes.
MR LAMEY: Is it correct then also that Exhibit S the document that is now before you, you've got that there, could you just look at Exhibit S before you, can you have a look at that, is that also a supplemented application which had been drafted and signed by you, well, which has been signed by you on the 7th of May 1999? Is that correct?
MR VEYI: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: If I may start off, you were a member of the South African Police, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes.
MR LAMEY: You are still a member of the South African Police, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes.
MR LAMEY: Sorry Mr Chairman, the witness is testifying now in English, I am not sure ...
MR VEYI: I will testify in Xhosa.
MR LAMEY: I think he selected to testify in Xhosa.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think his testimony are being translated I assume, interpreted.
MR LAMEY: Which channel is English then?
CHAIRPERSON: Channel 2.
MR LAMEY: Okay. Mr Veyi, you are still a member of the South African Police, is that right?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And you are presently attached to the Vehicle Theft Unit at Soweto, is that correct?
MR VEYI: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: During the relevant incident relating to the incident that is the topic of this hearing, the Simelane incident, you were a member of the Security Branch, is that correct, attached to Soweto?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: You confirm also your Force number stated in paragraph 8(a), is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that was the first one, but now it has been changed.
MR LAMEY: Was that your Force number at the stage when you were attached to the Security Branch?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: If we start off with your version and your particulars about this specific incident relating to the disappearance of Simelane, is it correct that you read an article in the Sowetan newspaper during January 1995?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And that report made mention of that this person, Simelane, was missing is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: You then came into contact with the reporter of the Sowetan and you gave her your story or version about what you know about this missing woman, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: That was published in the Sowetan on the 6th of February 1995, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And you, as we already know, you have made a statement also to the Attorney General's staff in this regard, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now you say that in paragraph 2, that your duties at the Security Branch was among others, to act as conveyor of information between handler and informer, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And you also had part of your duties, to recruit and train informers?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: So a man called Scotch is in fact Norman Mkhonza, was a covert Policeman of the Security Branch of Protea?
MR VEYI: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And that he worked under cover and that he infiltrated the ANC in Swaziland?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now from this on, can you tell the Committee how did you become involved in the Simelane incident?
MR VEYI: Yes, I can tell the Committee. After Scotch came back from Swaziland, if I still remember well, at the office there was a meeting. We discussed this issue about Scotch who came back from Swaziland.
ADV DE JAGER: If we can refer to Scotch as Mkhonza, if it is inconvenient, it is okay, but ...
MR VEYI: Yes.
MR LAMEY: Mr Veyi, when you refer to Scotch, mention him as Mr Mkhonza, would you be happy with that? At that time, who was the Commanding Officer of your Unit?
MR VEYI: The Commanding Officer was Mr Coetzee. But the whole Unit was under Brigadier Muller in Soweto.
MR LAMEY: And what did you, do you know anything about a meeting that would take place between Mkhonza and a certain person?
MR VEYI: Yes, I knew about that meeting, that there was going to be a lady from Swaziland who was supposed to meet with Mr Mkhonza at Carlton Centre. The meeting would be arranged and when this lady arrives with Scotch, she would be arrested and indeed that meeting took place and they went to Carlton Centre. I don't remember on which day, but that lady was arrested at the basement in Carlton Centre.
MR LAMEY: All right, were you present at the Carlton Centre when this all happened?
MR VEYI: No, I didn't go there, I was not there.
MR LAMEY: So what you say in this regard, this is what you heard, is that right?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is what was said at the meeting. I heard this at the meeting.
MR LAMEY: Were you present before this, before this happened, perhaps at the office where this arrangement of a meeting with this person or this lady, was discussed by Coetzee and with the other members?
MR VEYI: I don't remember whether I was one of the people in that meeting, but I have heard that there would be such a meeting and this lady was going to be arrested in Carlton Centre.
MR LAMEY: Were you at a meeting at any stage when specifically it was - a "kopdraai aksie" in relation to this person, was discussed?
MR VEYI: No, I don't remember. Maybe I have forgotten.
MR LAMEY: Sorry ...
MR VEYI: I don't remember being in such a meeting.
MR LAMEY: Are you saying that it is possible that there was a meeting where such a thing could have been discussed, but that you were not present?
MR VISSER: That is not what he is saying, Chairperson. My learned friend - really that is not what the witness say, he is saying it is possible that he was present at such a meeting but that he had forgotten about it, it is very simple what he is saying.
MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will then leave that as it is there. Can I just understand you correctly, are you saying that it is possible that you were at such a meeting where a "kop draai aksie" in relation to this person, was discussed, but that you can't remember being present at such a meeting?
MR VEYI: I am saying that it is possible that there was that meeting, but I don't remember there at that meeting with the "kop draai aksie."
MR LAMEY: What did you understand what was planned in relation to this person who Mkhonza would meet at the Carlton Centre?
MR VEYI: What I knew is that he was going to meet this person at Carlton Centre and then a trap would be set and then this lady would be arrested because she was from Swaziland and there was a possibility that she might be a member of MK, even though we were not sure.
MR LAMEY: You also state then that as far as you know, that the Policemen in paragraph 4 on page 8 of your supplemented application, as far as you know Coetzee, Pretorius, Radebe, Selamolela and Mothiba went to the Carlton Centre for that purpose, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: When did you first become involved with this person?
MR VEYI: After she was arrested in Carlton Centre, she was taken to Norwood the barracks, where Coetzee and Pretorius were staying. It is where I first started to go there, we guarded her there when the interrogation started.
MR LAMEY: Were you present during the interrogation?
MR VEYI: We would change shifts, I would be there and then someone else would be there because she was in the roof where the caretakers were staying, that is where we took shifts, we would relieve each other.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall, do you know when was the first time that you went to the Norwood quarters, do you know how long after her arrest?
MR VEYI: I think it was after she was arrested, it was before a week. I think she stayed there for a week in the roof before she was changed.
MR LAMEY: But can you remember the first time that you went to the Norwood quarters, how long was that after the arrest? Was it the same day, the day thereafter, or two days thereafter, or what do you recall?
MR VEYI: I think it was two days or three days after she was arrested.
MR LAMEY: For the first time to Norwood?
MR VEYI: Yes, it was for the first time.
MR LAMEY: And as far as you know, how long was she kept there at the Norwood quarters?
MR VEYI: I think it was for a week. After that, after a week, there was a suspicion that people were aware or people were aware of what was happening there, there were complaints because we would come in and come out, so we decided to move her to another place, to a far away place where people would not disturb us. She was then taken to Northum near Thabazimbi. There is a small town called Northum, I think it is 50 or 55 kilometres from Thabazimbi.
MR LAMEY: All right, before we get to that, may I just ask you during the period when she was kept at the Norwood quarters, do you know whether she was assaulted?
MR VEYI: When I arrived there, I could see that she was assaulted because she was swollen when I first arrived there. Even when I was there she was assaulted. She was seriously assaulted.
MR LAMEY: Can you say in what manner she was assaulted, that is now at Norwood?
MR VEYI: If she was standing up, she would be pushed. Let's say Pretorius would push her to another person and that person would slap her and she would fall down and she would be kicked, something like that.
MR LAMEY: Who led the interrogation during this period?
MR VEYI: It was Lieutenant Coetzee and Pretorius.
MR LAMEY: And who initiated the assaults on her during the interrogation?
MR VEYI: It would be Coetzee who would do everything sir. We would get instructions from Coetzee, we were there as black members and when she was assaulted, we would also assault her, even though it was not out intention to assault her. We didn't want to look as if we were not together with them in what they were doing.
MR LAMEY: So what you are saying is that you participated in the assaults because, is it correct, because it was expected of you, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall at Norwood in what way did you assault her, what was your role in participation in the assaults?
MR VEYI: I would grab her and hold her tight and tell her to tell the truth or to slap her with an open hand.
MR LAMEY: Can you perhaps recall what she was questioned about?
MR VEYI: She was questioned of whether she was trained from that side, if she was trained, in which country was she trained, and who are her contacts here in South Africa and if she had come to South Africa, how many times, what did she do when she was here in South Africa.
MR LAMEY: In general, if one can sum it up she was questioned about her activities and relationship with MK and planned activities in the RSA of MK and her own involvement as such, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now after the period of her detention, at the Norwood quarters, what happened further with her?
MR VEYI: After that, because she would scream and then people would see what was happening there, so because of that Coetzee indicated to us that she should be moved to another area, because it seemed as if people were of what were doing because this was a secret, what we were doing, was a secret because it was not legal.
MR LAMEY: It was a secret and it was not legal? Did you know at that stage that she was illegally detained and that she was kidnapped?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct. It was illegal.
MR LAMEY: And you previously stated that she was then taken to a certain farm in Northum, is that correct before I interrupted your testimony?
MR VEYI: Yes, she was taken to the farm in Northum.
MR LAMEY: What happened there?
MR VEYI: What happened there on that farm, we were changing shifts. The last time I saw her was in Norwood and then Coetzee told us that she was no longer there, she was taken to Northum, he then gave us direction to that place, together with Selamolela because we didn't know that place. He told us to go to Northum and we would wait at the Police station there and he would send someone to come and pick us up and take us to that farm. Indeed that happened. This person took us to that farm.
MR LAMEY: Who took you to the farm?
MR VEYI: I don't remember that person's name, but there was someone who picked us up there.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall, you say she was kept at Norwood.
ADV DE JAGER: Did you travel by car to Northum Police station?
MR VEYI: Yes, we travelled by car from Soweto to Northum.
ADV DE JAGER: You and?
MR VEYI: It was myself and Sergeant Selamolela.
MR LAMEY: Is that now on the first time that you went to the farm?
MR VEYI: That is correct yes.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall what period, how long after she was kept at Norwood, were you and Selamolela, did you and Selamolela go to Northum on the first occasion?
MR VEYI: As she was in Norwood if I still remember well, I went to Norwood twice and I can say that in Norwood she stayed something like a week and then she was then transferred to Northum. I think we took a break of three days, after three days we then joined them in Northum.
MR LAMEY: Can you tell the Committee, when you and Selamolela went to Northum, did you stay there the whole time or how did it happen?
MR VEYI: We would not stay there for the whole week, we changed shifts. We would stay maybe for two days and then we would change, others would come. All the time when the shifts would change, when they were relieving me, others would come and each group, Coetzee and Pretorius would be there in all these groups that were changing shifts. It wouldn't happen that that group would be there alone or they would be there alone without any other black members.
MR LAMEY: For what period from the first time that you went to this farm in Northum, do you know for what period to the last time that you were there, how many days or weeks went by?
MR VEYI: I can say that in each and every week, I can say that she stayed more than a month in Northum. Each and every week we would go there, during that period.
MR LAMEY: During that period, did it also happen that Coetzee and Pretorius also came back to Soweto and also go there on an on and off basis?
MR VEYI: They would tell us to come, maybe they would tell us to come in the morning and then they would go back and then in that very same day, they would come again, late or maybe at about ten o'clock or earlier than that time, they would then come back, but most of the time they would be there.
MR LAMEY: During the times that you were there at Northum, what happened to this lady?
MR VEYI: When we were in Norwood, when we were in Thabazimbi busy with the interrogation, we found out from Coetzee that this lady was a trained MK member. From there the interrogation was tough to her, because if you were a member of MK, you were treated in a different way. It was hard for her. The way she was assaulted, even if she wet herself, she would be assaulted and when she was taken to the dam, she was not taken there to wash, she would be taken to the dam and put inside and then taken out and that same process would continue and then she would be taken back to that house, and she would be interrogated.
CHAIRPERSON: You refer to Strongman, what did you say about him, it wasn't translated to me, just repeat it.
MR VEYI: What I am saying is when Coetzee testified, he said that Strongman and Immanuel were just people who were guarding the farm. They were not guarding the farm, they were doing the same job as we were doing. When a person would be arrested, they would be there and when the person would be interrogated, they would also be there. If the person is assaulted, they would also do that and the handcuffs, they were not normal, they were not, they were so tight so that they can give this person pain. That is why she was swollen and then she would be assaulted. If you were a member of MK, you are regarded as a terrorist and as a most dangerous person, more dangerous than an ordinary criminal, so the treatment was not right.
MR LAMEY: Can I just take you a bit slowly during this interrogation, during this period. When was she or during, when was she during this period assaulted, at which stages? Was it during interrogation?
MR VEYI: Yes, she would be asked about the people who were involved and the people who came to South Africa and she would be asked about the instructions from Swaziland. She would be asked about the DLB's here in South Africa, she would be asked such things and she would deny any knowledge of anything and then she would be assaulted. From that time until the withdrawal, I don't remember her naming any DLB's or any contacts here in South Africa. Because of that, she was not given a fair treatment.
MR LAMEY: Mr Veyi, I want to ask you just to go a bit slower, you know you are relating a whole lot of events and the Interpreters, I think are having difficulty to keep up with you. Would you just pause on occasion and relate your evidence so that we can just, so that the Interpreter can also just keep up. You say she was interrogated and she was asked about DLB's, etc, during this interrogation periods and she denied everything, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: During this period of interrogation, was she then assaulted?
MR VEYI: Yes, she was assaulted because she was not saying anything.
MR LAMEY: Now can you explain in what way was she assaulted?
MR VEYI: She would be kicked, punched and then she would be strangled, she would be taken to the dam, put inside the dam and then she would be taken out of the dam, and she would say that she was going to say something, then she would be taken back to that house and then she would be given a chance to tell us and then she would then not say anything.
MR LAMEY: You have mentioned several ways of assault. Did this several ways happen during each and every session of interrogation or are you talking in general over the period?
MR VEYI: I am talking about what was happening when she was guarded by me, when I was present. I don't know what was happening when I was not there. I don't know how she was tortured when I was not there.
MR LAMEY: All right, that I understand but on the occasion that you were present during the interrogation, when she was assaulted, what I want to ask you is on each of those occasions, was she thrown into the dam, strangled, kicked, punched and slapped or did it happen in different ways on different occasions that you were present?
MR VEYI: This would take place differently. If today maybe she was kicked and beaten, or maybe others would strangle her and others would grab her, and sometimes a wet sack would be put in her face so that she would suffocate and then when that bag or sack would be taken out, she would say she was going to say something and then when she was given a chance to say that, she would not say anything.
ADV GCABASHE : Tell me Mr Veyi, so if you were there for two days in one week, the first day you were there, the would be kicked, she would be punched, she would be thrown into the dam, etc and then on the second day, the same thing would happen again?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct, it happened that day.
ADV GCABASHE : Then when you returned the following week, you would do the same things to her again and again?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
ADV GCABASHE : And the people leading this interrogation would be Coetzee and Pretorius?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
ADV GCABASHE : Each time?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct. If Pretorius, if they are not there, maybe they would go home and they would leave us behind, we wouldn't do anything, we just stay there and then she would be free when she was with us, and then when they come back, the interrogation would start again.
MR LAMEY: All right, when Coetzee and Pretorius left, you say she would be free, what do you mean?
MR VEYI: What I mean is there was not any, she was not interrogated, we would just shout to her, maybe they would leave an album and then she would page through the album or maybe they would give her a photo album of people who skipped the country and then she would page through this album and she would say that she doesn't know the people in that album. Then they would come back and ask her what she did and she would tell them that she paged through the album and she didn't know those people and the interrogation would start again.
MR LAMEY: Now during this whole period, over the month that you came and went and when you were present, during interrogation, what was her attitude when she was questioned and interrogated? Was she co-operative or what, how did she respond to the interrogation?
MR VEYI: According to my experience, working with the Security Branch, it would depend on that particular person that would be arrested, if you would arrest a person today, trying to recruit that person, that person would not cooperate. Maybe after a week, that person would agree with you and then nothing would happen.
MR LAMEY: What happened in this instance? Did she - when you were present during the interrogation - did you get the impression that she is co-operative or what was the situation, how did she respond to the interrogation?
MR VEYI: According to what I saw, she didn't seem as if she would cooperate with us, that is why she was treated like this. All those days that I was there, I don't remember her co-operating or agreeing to working with us. When Superintendent Coetzee said she co-operated, I was surprised because at that time, we were supposed to be aware that she was co-operating, he would have told us that she was co-operating with us, even though we were not going to be responsible for handling her.
MR LAMEY: Now at times when Coetzee and Pretorius left and you and perhaps some of the other black members remained behind with her, did you receive particular instructions regarding follow up questioning or what was your role, did you receive instructions with a particular role that you had to play in relation to the lady, Simelane?
MR VEYI: They would tell us to talk to her when they left. Maybe if she was alone with us as black members, things would be better, she would agree to working with us. But she didn't agree at all.
MR LAMEY: Did you assault her in the absence of Coetzee or Pretorius or at the farm at all?
MR VEYI: No, as I have already said when Pretorius and Coetzee were not there, she would then be free, she would not be assaulted, and then when they came back, things would start again, we did not assault her when they were not there.
MR LAMEY: Did you receive specific instructions that you had to work in a more nicer way with her when they were not there?
MR VEYI: No, we did not get such instructions, that would just happen because after we stayed there with her, we felt that this was not right, but we did not trust each other, but we could see that the way she was treated, was not right, we did not like it. There was nothing we could do.
MR LAMEY: Did you attempt to ask her questions in a way in order to get her co-operation, in another way apart from - by not assaulting her?
MR VEYI: No, what she would do was to page through the album and then she would say that she doesn't know anything, so there was nothing else we could do. We would just take what she was telling us.
MR LAMEY: Did you during this period at Northum, gather also that there is also an attempt to recruit her, in order to turn her to the side of the Security Police?
MR VEYI: At the time she was interrogated, it was when she was asked about all these issues. We would be there when they would tell her that if you are going to work together with us, we would do this and this for you, we would be there when they were telling her that.
MR LAMEY: Sorry, I don't understand that, let me just rephrase the question. During the whole period over the month that she was kept at Northum, did you get the idea that there was also an attempt to recruit her, to turn her to the side of the Security Police?
MR VEYI: Yes, they were trying to turn her, but I could see that she was not going to cooperate with them.
MR LAMEY: As far as you are concerned, there were attempts, but she wasn't co-operative and she didn't respond positively to that?
MR VEYI: Yes, according to what I saw, I am surprised to hear that she co-operated with them because if she did, Lazarus or myself would have been aware that she was co-operating, or working together with them.
MR LAMEY: After she was taken to the farm at Northum and when you last saw her at Northum, may I just ask you this, how many weeks expired when you saw her the last time at Northum, after you went there the first time?
MR VEYI: I think it was about four weeks.
MR VISSER: What was the question?
MR LAMEY: The last time, yes how many weeks transpired after you went first to Northum? I am getting actually to the next question. After that period after the four weeks after you initially went to, when you last saw her at Northum, what was her general physical condition like, could you just give a description?
MR VEYI: Her physical condition had changed. As Scotch had already described, she was a beautiful lady, she was slender and beautiful and she had changed. She was swollen, the hands were swollen and every, she was swollen all over and she could not walk properly. When she wanted to go to the toilet, we would help her, take her to the particular place.
MR LAMEY: Was she still footcuffed or in leg irons when you last saw her at the farm?
MR VEYI: Yes, she was still footcuffed.
MR LAMEY: Not handcuffs?
MR VEYI: When we were there, she would not be handcuffed.
MR LAMEY: When you were there was the handcuffs removed?
MR VEYI: Yes, we would take of her handcuffs, but when they would come, we would then handcuff her again.
MR LAMEY: You say she was swollen all over, what parts of her body were swollen?
MR VEYI: Her face was swollen, she could not see properly and the wrists because the handcuffs would be tight, they would give her pain in the hands.
MR VISSER: Sorry Chairperson, I don't want to waste time, but I didn't hear the answer. I don't know whether I wasn't just concentrating.
CHAIRPERSON: The applicant is busy describing the physical condition of Ms Simelane. He says her face was swollen, she couldn't see properly and her hands were swollen from the handcuffs.
MR LAMEY: Now the clothes that she had on when you last saw her, what type of clothing did she have?
MR VEYI: From Norwood she was wearing an over-all until the last time, she had an over-all, a brown over-all, a Police over-all.
MR LAMEY: You also made mention that she was on occasion during interrogation sessions also thrown into the dam. What was the purpose of that?
MR VEYI: If she would not be put in the dam, a bag would be put on her head, so that she would tell us about what we were asking.
MR LAMEY: No, I am asking why was she put in the dam during interrogation sessions, why in the dam?
MR VEYI: It was part of the interrogation, sometimes she would have soiled herself or she was supposed to wash at the dam. That was all part of the interrogation.
MR LAMEY: When you stayed there at the farm, where did you sleep?
MR VEYI: It was summer time at the time and it was very hot there, we would take the stretchers and we would sleep there. We would sleep at the stretchers.
MR LAMEY: You would sleep on stretchers.
ADV GCABASHE : Sleeping bags.
MR VEYI: Sleeping bags, thank you.
MR LAMEY: Thank you.
MR VEYI: We would sleep in sleeping bags and we would put them on top of the stretchers.
MR LAMEY: Now during her interrogation also on the farm, did you also assault her?
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Lamey, he said something it was hot, it was summer time. Did you sleep in the room or outside?
MR VEYI: Because that room was small, some of us would be inside that room and then some would sleep outside.
MR LAMEY: During the time, you stated in your amnesty application, your written application that you also participated during assault sessions, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: You remember also slapping her and you also say that you also remember that you kicked her on occasion?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: But most of the time your participation was to hold her while the other members assaulted her, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now you also say that at a stage when her physical condition deteriorated as a result of the interrogation and assaults, you refrained from assaulting her, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Why did you refrain?
MR VEYI: I don't know how to put this, but I had the feeling that this was not right, what was happening there was not right so I decided to refrain. We did not take part that much.
MR LAMEY: So you held back as opposed to the initial stages, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Did Coetzee and Pretorius hold back as well?
MR VEYI: No, they didn't, they continued.
MR LAMEY: During this period at Northum, who initiated on the occasions when you were there, the assaults during interrogation and who were the leaders in that?
MR VEYI: The leaders as I have already said, it was Warrant Officer Coetzee who was the leader. Everything that was happening, we did that according to his instruction. He would be the one who was leading, together with Pretorius.
MR LAMEY: Can you further tell us, after you have left from the farm the last time, I assume you went back to your base at the Security Branch in Soweto, is that correct?
MR VEYI: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: You then received a message, is that correct?
MR VEYI: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: What was this message?
MR VEYI: As we were working, we would take instructions from the office, because we would not be there at the office most of the time, Coetzee would phone and say that we must go to the office, maybe we would be in Swaziland, Lesotho or Botswana, he would then tell us to go the office and take instructions at the office about what to do. We were supposed to go back to Northum and when we were at the office, we received a message to go to Potchefstroom and we would get a message there. We knew we were supposed to go from the office to Northum and then we were told to change, to go to Potchefstroom first. If I still remember well, we would get Colonel Steyn or Colonel Loots, I am not sure, he was the one who was in charge of the Western Transvaal Security Branch, we then went there.
MR LAMEY: Was that Branch stationed at Potchefstroom, the Western Transvaal Security Branch?
MR VEYI: The Divisional Head Office of Western Transvaal was in Potchefstroom. He was in charge there. I think it was Colonel Steyn or Loots, I am not sure.
MR LAMEY: Yes.
ADV GCABASHE : Tell me, before you go on, who were you going to find there, that wasn't translated. You were going to find somebody with Steyn and whoever, who was this person?
MR VEYI: We received a message at the office saying that Lieutenant Coetzee phoned and he told us not to go to Northum where we were supposed to go. He told us that we would meet with him in Potchefstroom in Colonel Steyn's office. We then drove to Potchefstroom. When we were on our way to Potchefstroom ...
MR LAMEY: Can I just stop you there, you say we drove. Who drove the vehicle?
MR VEYI: Selamolela was the driver.
MR LAMEY: Which vehicle did he use?
MR VEYI: A Honda Ballade, a 1982 Honda Ballade.
MR LAMEY: Was it only the two of you?
MR VEYI: Yes.
MR LAMEY: Was this a Police vehicle?
MR VEYI: Yes.
MR LAMEY: And right, you then went from Johannesburg or Soweto to Potchefstroom, driving in this vehicle?
MR VEYI: We drove from Soweto to Potchefstroom, driving this vehicle. We met a four way stop, Fochville, Carltonville. Before we arrived at that four way stop, there was a car coming towards us, it flickered its lights and when it was near us, we saw that this was Lieutenant Coetzee who was driving that XR6, a blue car. He told us we must go back to Soweto and not continue to our journey. He withdrew there in Northum, he then opened the boot of the car, boot of his car. I then saw Nokuthula. We knew the name Sbongile but at a later stage we discovered that she was an MK member, she was inside the car boot, wearing that brown over-all. She was still footcuffed and handcuffed on her back. She was in a crouching position in the car boot and then he closed the boot again. We then went back.
MR LAMEY: Where did you go from there?
MR VEYI: We went back to the office.
MR LAMEY: What did Coetzee, did Coetzee say anything or how did it happen that you turned around to go back to the office?
MR VEYI: He just told us to go back to the office?
MR LAMEY: Was anyone with Coetzee?
MR VEYI: No, he was alone.
MR LAMEY: Do you know from thereon, what happened further regarding this lady?
MR VEYI: After that, a few days after that, after everybody was in the office, continuing with normal duties I asked Sergeant Pretorius what happened. I asked Pretorius what happened, where was Sbongile and he said to me "don't ask a lot of questions." I then didn't ask anything after that again, I kept quiet. After some few days, after asking that question, I was together with Sergeant Mothiba. I was with Sergeant Mothiba, we were at the office and he said to me we used to call him Uncle or Malumi because he was older, most of the time we didn't use our real names, we would call him Malumi. I then asked him where was this lady, what happened to her. He said to me I am very scared of these white people and I then asked "why Malumi" and he told me that they shot her and they killed her and they buried her in Rustenburg. That was the last time I heard about her.
MR LAMEY: This discussion with Mothiba, how long after you last saw the lady Simelane in the boot of Coetzee's car, how much time elapsed after that?
MR VEYI: I think it was about a week. Everything that was happening in the Unit, it would happen and we would not know what came of it. Then this one, we didn't hear anything about it because most of the time, if Coetzee told a person that he was going to, he would tell a person that he was going to Swaziland or Botswana, but this time there was nothing said about it. The reason why I asked Mothiba what happened is because when I asked Sergeant Pretorius, he gave me that answer that he gave me.
MR LAMEY: Mr Veyi, prior to this incident where this lady was grabbed or taken from the Carlton Centre, and thereafter interrogated at the farm at Northum, were you previously also before that, had knowledge of also arrests or kidnapping of detainees and their interrogation and so on?
MR VEYI: Yes, I can so. Before this incident, even though I was not present Peter Lengene was kidnapped in Botswana and he was brought this side, and after that, we tried to recruit him to turn him. I think after a week or so, or two weeks, I don't remember clearly, he agreed to cooperate with us.
MR LAMEY: Can you remember in this instance whether from the outset, did you know from the outset in the case of Simelane, that she would, that there will be an attempt to turn her or to recruit her?
MR VEYI: I knew that she had an appointment with Mkhonza in Carlton Centre, she was going to be arrested.
MR LAMEY: Is that what you knew?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is what I knew.
MR LAMEY: At what stage after that, or did you realise at any stage after that, that the arrest is not normal or that there is some abnormality about it?
MR VEYI: She was not the first person to be arrested by the Security Branch, if you would be arrested by the Security Branch, you would be arrested and then they would detain you for 14 days or more than that. You would stay at the Police station, you would be kept at the Police station and then after that, you would be charged. But in her case that didn't happen. A month elapsed after she was arrested and she was not charged and then if you would be arrested, when they realise that you were not going to cooperate with the Security Branch, you would then be charged.
MR LAMEY: But did - at what stage did you realise that this arrest is not normal?
MR VEYI: Usually if you were arrested by the Security Branch, or maybe after 14 days in detention, you would be detained and immediately after being arrested, you would be detained and then you would be charged after that. When she was taken to Norwood, I realised that her arrest was illegal because after the arrest, she was supposed to be taken to the Police station and she was supposed to be written in the cell register, that was the normal procedure, but that didn't happen.
MR LAMEY: So when you first saw her at Norwood, that is the moment when you realised that this is not a normal arrest, is that correct? Do I understand you correctly?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now Coetzee and Pretorius testified that it was their modus operandi in any "kop draai" action or recruitment of a person, that they would assault?
MR VISSER: That wasn't Pretorius Chairperson, it was only Coetzee.
MR LAMEY: Sorry, I apologise, then Coetzee testified that that was the modus operandi, his modus operandi in a "kop draai aksie" to assault the person in the manner which he described. Do you have any comment on that, can you comment on that?
MR VEYI: Yes, if a person would be arrested, Coetzee would come and see that person, even if he did not say anything and then he would then observe you and then decide whether you would work with them or not. He would take you to a particular place and will try to recruit you, but if that doesn't succeed, then you would be charged.
MR LAMEY: The modus operandi that I referred actually to, he described that his modus operandi with recruitment was to assault the detainee in the manner which he did, in order to have a particular impact on this person. Can you comment on that, can you dispute that or are you in disagreement with that or do you have a view about that, what is your version?
MR VEYI: I would agree, but I would like to make an example. It would depend on what kind of a person that is. In Peter Lengene’s case who was arrested before Nokuthula, he was arrested and then he was assaulted, but he was not tortured. He was assaulted but not for a long time, and then he agreed to cooperate with us and then he worked together with us. After that, Nokuthula was arrested and the same thing happened to her.
MR LAMEY: Can I just stop you there, the moment when Lengene started to cooperate, how was he then handled and treated?
MR VEYI: At the time when he was first arrested, he was treated like Nokuthula.
ADV GCABASHE : Then once he decided to cooperate, how was he treated?
MR VEYI: After he agreed, he was also handcuffed but after he agreed to cooperate, he then co-operated with us and then the handcuffs were taken off. Every time he would go out, we were together with him because we would observe him for a long time because it might happen that a person would agree to work together with us but maybe that person would just be asking us not to assault him and then after that, he would run away.
MR LAMEY: About Lengene, the moment when he started to cooperate and the moment when he decided or the moment when he was turned and sort of was recruited, was he further assaulted?
MR VEYI: No, he was not assaulted because he had agreed to cooperate.
MR LAMEY: Can I bring you back now from your previous experience, like the example of Lengene which you have mentioned, is there a difference about his case and that of Simelane?
ADV GCABASHE : A difference in respect of what, maybe you can just break it down a bit, it is a broad question.
MR LAMEY: You have described that in the case of Lengene, he was assaulted at first, at the moment when he became co-operative, and he was recruited and he turned, did I understand you correctly that he was no longer assaulted, he was then treated in a different manner, is that correct?
MR VEYI: That is correct. I would like to repeat again, there is another person who was arrested by the name of Joe. In Joe's case he was also an MK member. After a week or two, he agreed to cooperate with us and then he was no longer assaulted.
MR LAMEY: The instance of Simelane, if you look at her interrogation over this period and the periods that you were present and involved, and about also, you said that you have gathered that there will be an attempt also to turn her and to recruit her, is that correct? If you compare her situation and what transpired with her, with that of Lengene and also the other case that you have mentioned, can you comment as far as in your view, whether she was at any stage, she turned or became co-operative and that in comparison also to the others, that the treatment started to change?
MR VEYI: According to what I saw up to the last week when I last saw her, she didn't agree to cooperate with us because her interrogation as compared to Joe and Peter Lengene, it took a long time and that was not normal to the person who agreed to cooperate with us.
MR LAMEY: Can I just ask you, can you remember or can you comment whether during interrogation bouts, on an occasion or more than one occasion, whether electrical ...
MR VISSER: No, no with great respect Chairperson, really my learned friend can lead a witness only so far. There is a clear dispute before you on this very issue that he is mentioning now. How can my learned friend place the words in the mouth of the witness? He asked him before how was Simelane assaulted and he went through step by step by step, he never mentioned that Chairperson, never once. It is really not proper for my learned friend to place that very word in the mouth of the witness, with great respect. Let him ask, if he wants to go through that list again, let him ask him, but this witness has not tendered that evidence before you and it is not for my learned friend to draw it out of him.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, of course you wouldn't be able to ask a leading question, but of course you are entitled to deal with that issue but not in the form of a leading question.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I will rephrase the question, I will try to rephrase.
ADV DE JAGER: The trouble is Mr Lamey, honestly you have already put the word to him, so what would the rephrasement help?
MR LAMEY: I can just say Mr Chairman, that I have put it to Coetzee, as far as my instructions not only from Selamolela but also from this person. I want to get back in some way, my learned friend talks about leading questions, I mean we have papers before us where the witnesses, his applicants just read the version and they deny everything that has been stated by our applicants. I don't know what really the objection is in that regard. Also the assaults, it is all blotted down on paper, the manner of the assaults, everything, by the applicants. There has been leading questions from the outright about that, I understand it is contentious, but I must find a way to get back to this to the applicant. I will try and rephrase it, I understand that it is contentious, but I will try and rephrase it. Mr Veyi, you have previously stated the ways in which as you recall it in your evidence in chief, the ways in which Ms Simelane was assaulted during interrogation bouts. You have mentioned that on occasions she was kicked, you mentioned that she was slapped, she was hit with fists, you have mentioned that a bag was placed over her head and also that she has also been thrown into the dam. Can you recall apart from those ways in which she had been assaulted, any and I want to ask you really clearly from your own memory in this regard, I want from your own memory and your own mind, can you recall today any other way in which she was tortured or assaulted during interrogation apart from that which you have mentioned?
MR VEYI: This happened some time ago, it is possible that I do forget some other methods. It is possible that one of the people who were there, can have a better memory as far as that is concerned.
MR LAMEY: I beg your pardon? Mr Chairman, may I just, I don't want to belabour this aspect much further, but would it be possible for me to quote for instance from the version of Mr Selamolela on this aspect and put it to this applicant and ask his comments about that?
CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on) Have you got, how much ground must you still cover Mr Lamey?
MR LAMEY: I don't have much further, there is perhaps just one aspect apart from this, that I am going to cover, I see we have come over time, but I am not far from finished, but I am in the hands of the Committee?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't want to sit much longer than this, so if you are close to the end, then it is fine.
MR LAMEY: I am very close to the end.
CHAIRPERSON: If you are not close to the end, then I am going to adjourn.
MR LAMEY: No, I am very close to the end.
CHAIRPERSON: Especially if we are looking for sections of the record now.
ADV GCABASHE : Page 567?
MR LAMEY: Yes.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, is the idea now that my learned friend is going to alert this witness to what he is after by reading to him what Mr Selamolela has said? That is paragraph 6 Chairperson, because if he wants to do that, then he may as well just say it to him straight out, I mean what the value of that evidence will be, he will have to address you on. But whether he says it to the witness or he reads from a document, the moment he suggests it to the witness, I mean he is suggesting the evidence to the witness and we all as lawyers know Chairperson, that the value of that evidence, whatever the answer is going to be, is virtually zero.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything in his own application Mr Lamey? Any reference in his own application to this issue?
MR LAMEY: No, not in his own application Mr Chairman, but we all know in proceedings of this kind, that as a result of time, etc, and everything, the Bundles and what is contained in the Bundles, are not a secret, applicants among themselves, the purpose of this is really to establish by reference perhaps to another version to him, whether he can recollect it.
CHAIRPERSON: No, I am just asking if there is a reference in his own application that you can refer to?
MR LAMEY: No, there is not a reference, not in the application of Mr Veyi, no.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well, put it to him and let's hear what his comment is.
MR LAMEY: Mr Veyi, Mr Selamolela has said in his application and statement that she was inter alia assaulted by placing a bag over her head and the use of electrical shocks. What I want to ask you really from your own and independently, in your own mind, if you cannot recollect this you must say so, if you can recollect it, I just want to hear your comment on this, can you recollect that at the time when you were present.
MR VEYI: We were changing shifts, sometimes I would be with Simelane, sometimes I would be with (indistinct), it could have happened that during my absence, such a thing took place.
MR LAMEY: During your absence? But you can't recall that happening in your presence, is that what you are saying?
MR VEYI: I do not remember.
MR LAMEY: Okay. Mr Chairman, I may then have misunderstood the instruction during the course, it must have come from Mr Selamolela in this regard, but I do recall that I have actually put it as if also the instruction that came from Mr Veyi.
CHAIRPERSON: You will have to deal with that in due course.
MR LAMEY: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Let's just see if we can then try and dispose of the evidence?
MR LAMEY: Then the next point Mr Veyi is, at the stage in 1983 when Ms Selamolela was then interrogated and detained and kept at Northum, were there any other safe houses of the Security Branch, Soweto that you were aware of and if so, where were they?
MR VEYI: Yes there were safe houses. There were in Klipspruit West, there were three of them. First of all when this RS programme started, we were using houses which were in Klipspruit West, two of them, this is where the informers and RS were interviewed and we later abandoned the two and we used only one, that is where the Portuguese Immanuel and Strongman were residing, that was the house that we were using. Even Peter Lengene was staying in one of those houses in Klipspruit, even in Rustenburg where Superintendent Coetzee, he even go to Rustenburg as mentioned by Superintendent Coetzee.
MR LAMEY: I am speaking specifically up to the time of 1983, I don't want to speak about after 1983, are you saying this in connection up to the time of 1983 when she was detained, is that what you are saying?
MR VEYI: Yes, 1983 Peter Lengene was kidnapped in 1982 from there, up to 1983. We were using those houses that were in Klipspruit. The RS programme was still at the initial stages, it was not yet advanced and then we later acquired other safe houses after 1983.
MR LAMEY: As at 1983 there were safe houses as I understand your evidence, in Klipspruit, is that correct?
MR VEYI: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman the next aspect will be the political objective which I want to cover. I don't know if I must proceed with that or whether we can start tomorrow?
CHAIRPERSON: No, we also had a bit of good news on a different front, so we are going to have to adjourn at this stage. We will reconvene at half past nine, tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
