Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe, are you calling Mr Khumalo now?

MR MOTEPE: That is correct Chairperson, it is Thami Khumalo the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MOTEPE: I am appearing on his behalf.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

THAMI KHUMALO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Motepe?

EXAMINATION BY MR MOTEPE: Mr Khumalo, you are the applicant in this matter, and you have filled in an application form for amnesty, is that correct?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR MOTEPE: In your application form, you state that this application is in connection with the armed robbery, is that correct?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR MOTEPE: You also mention that the date of the robbery was the 8th, whereas your colleague has mentioned that it was on the 1st. Which is the correct situation, can you just explain to the Committee?

MR KHUMALO: The correct date of the robbery was the 1st of December. I think the 8th was on that date when we were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: So we will amend paragraph 9(a)(ii) to read the 1st of December, rather than the 8th?

MR MOTEPE: That is correct Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: According to the records here, there was a charge on page 36, and they were charged with robberies on the 26th of October, the 1st of December and the 6th of December.

CHAIRPERSON: That is pages 35, 36 and 37 of the Bundle.

MR MOTEPE: My understanding is that similarly with the previous applicant, they were arrested, but the conviction was on the offence of the 1st.

CHAIRPERSON: There were acquittals in respect of the others, is that correct?

MR MOTEPE: That is correct, that is my understanding.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MOTEPE: Can you just explain to the Committee, at the time of the commission of this robbery, were you a member of any organisation?

MR KHUMALO: I will say I was a supporter of the ANC.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Just a moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sorry Mr Motepe, the answer to that last question was I was a supporter of the ANC?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

MR MOTEPE: Now, where were you residing at this particular stage?

MR KHUMALO: At Siluma View.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just repeat that, whereabout, which View?

INTERPRETER: Siluma, S-i-l-u-m-a.

MR MOTEPE: On the day of the commission of this robbery, can you kindly explain the circumstances that led to it?

MR KHUMALO: We received an order that we should go out an commit a robbery for the reason that we required equipment, that we could use to protect ourselves as the community because of the violence that was going on. It was mentioned that we should acquire vehicles which we would sell and be able to get some finances.

MR MOTEPE: Can you tell us who gave you that order?

MR KHUMALO: Mr Zongo.

MR MOTEPE: And the order was given to yourself and who, were you alone?

MR KHUMALO: It was myself and my co-accused, Godfrey Sithole.

MR MOTEPE: You said the order was to go and rob, is that right?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR MOTEPE: Were you told specifically what to rob?

MR KHUMALO: They were already coming from a meeting and I think they did discuss the fact that we should rob or hijack vehicles that we could sell to acquire funds, because at that time, we were short of finances.

MR MOTEPE: If I get you well, you received your order on the 1st of December, is that correct?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR MOTEPE: Around what time, the time when you received the order?

MR KHUMALO: Around nine or ten in the morning.

MR MOTEPE: yes, and after getting the order, what did you do?

MR KHUMALO: I was informed that Godfrey had already been told about it, and thereafter I went to him and we remained together and left that afternoon to carry out the order.

MR MOTEPE: You left in the afternoon, whereto?

MR KHUMALO: We went to Alrode.

MR MOTEPE: And you have testified that Godfrey had already identified the car, that was your information at the time?

MR KHUMALO: No, he did not know. We were together and we just spotted the vehicle and discussed it amongst ourselves, we think it is proper to target that one.

MR MOTEPE: How did you identify your targets? Was it because of its value, was it any other attribute that you used, how did you identify the targets?

MR KHUMALO: We were on the lookout for vehicles that were of value, because we understood that weapons were expensive, therefore the money that we were going to get from the vehicle, should be able to cover the expenses of the weapons.

MR MOTEPE: After you identified this vehicle, then what happened?

MR KHUMALO: It was in the afternoon and we were aware that the owner of the vehicle, might be coming at any time, because it was around the time when people were knocking off work. We then waited there and he approached and when he did, we approached him and we told him that we wanted the vehicle's keys.

MR MOTEPE: That was before he entered the car?

MR KHUMALO: No, we approached him after he had already entered the vehicle.

MR MOTEPE: Yes, you demanded the keys, and then what happened?

MR KHUMALO: He just requested us not to harm him, and we informed him that as far as he co-operated, he would not be harmed. He then handed the keys over to us, and we took the vehicle and left.

MR MOTEPE: So you didn't harm him at all?

MR KHUMALO: No, not at all.

MR MOTEPE: Then what happened after you took the keys?

MR KHUMALO: My friend then drove the vehicle to Siluma and we showed the vehicle to Mr Zongo and it was driven into the garage. On the following day, he introduced us to the two gentlemen from Maputo and they informed us that they were going to accompany us to Westonaria and that is where everything was settled.

MR MOTEPE: You said you parked the car in the garage, which garage are you referring to?

MR KHUMALO: Mr Zongo's garage.

MR MOTEPE: At Mr Zongo's home?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR MOTEPE: Then you left with this two Mozambicans, is that correct? What happened thereafter?

MR KHUMALO: On our arrival at Westonaria, we encountered a certain gentleman by the name of Peter and these Mozambicans talked to him. He informed us that he would have to contact Mike, who was supposedly his boss. We left the vehicle there. The following day, we went back. I was together with Godfrey and we did find Mike who was satisfied with the vehicle and he gave us the R10 000-00 that we demanded for the vehicle. We then returned back to Spruit with the R10 000-00.

MR MOTEPE: How did you return back to Spruit, did you use taxi's or did you have your own car? How did you return back to Spruit?

MR KHUMALO: From Westonaria to Baragwanath, we were driven by Peter and from there, we boarded taxi's to Spruit.

MR MOTEPE: On your arrival at Spruit, what happened?

MR KHUMALO: On our arrival, we informed Mr Zongo that everything had gone well, and we handed the money over to him, and he thanked us for the job well done.

MR MOTEPE: Did he just thank you by word, or did he give you any reward?

MR KHUMALO: There was no reward involved. He just said that you had done a good job, and that was the end of it.

MR MOTEPE: Now, in your operations, you used transport, am I right, you used taxi's, am I right?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR MOTEPE: Now, where did you get the money for the taxi fares and ...

MR KHUMALO: We received such moneys from Mr Zongo. We would inform him if we needed money or if there was no need for him to give us money for transport, we would also inform him.

MR MOTEPE: Mr Zongo, what was his status in the community, what was he? Was he a member of any organisation?

MR KHUMALO: I would say he was an ANC member. In the community, he was called Baba. I would say he was the community leader.

MR MOTEPE: Now the events on the 6th of December, can you kindly explain what happened on that particular day?

MR KHUMALO: On that day Thulani Hlatzwayo came to me and said there was a vehicle that was for sale and we directed him to Mr Zongo and they discussed the matter, after which Mr Zongo informed us that he had spoken to Thulani and the vehicle should then be taken to Westonaria. On Thulani's return we went to Westonaria and everything went well and we received a sum of R15 000-00 for that vehicle. On our return, Peter drove us back and we were arrested on the way.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Motepe, why did Thulani Hlatzwayo approach you about selling a vehicle?

MR KHUMALO: We knew each other, and we used to discuss these matters with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Thulani, was that his own vehicle or had he stolen it?

MR KHUMALO: He informed us that it was stolen.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Thulani Hlatzwayo a car thief?

MR KHUMALO: I would not say so, because I knew him as an SDU member.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe?

MR MOTEPE: This - the car by Hlatzwayo, you say that he told you that it was - was it stolen or it was robbed? Did he tell you that?

MR KHUMALO: He did say that it had been hijacked.

MR MOTEPE: But you were not there at the hijack stage, when it was hijacked, you just entered the picture when the car was to be sold?

MR KHUMALO: No, I was not present.

MR MOTEPE: For Thulani to come to you specifically, not to other members of the community, what was the reason? Was it maybe because of your connections, why did he come to you specifically?

MR KHUMALO: He knew that we were involved in such activities.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't he tell you that he received orders to hijack a car or did he do it out of his own?

MR KHUMALO: He did state that they had received such orders from his Branch seniors.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So why didn't he go back to his Commander and tell him "listen, I have carried out your order", why did he come to you?

MR KHUMALO: I am not certain, but I think he had discussed the matter with his Commanders, but when he arrived, he was seeking a meeting with Mr Zongo and that is where we took him. Mr Zongo came back to us to issue an order, therefore from what I saw, I assumed that they knew one another.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe?

MR MOTEPE: What is the situation after a person robs a car, that particular time, a person robs a car, does he come to you first to tell you about, so that you give him connections of where to go and sell this car, you said you were in the selling branch, sort of? You were selling these cars. Now this person, does he come to you first or does he report first to the Commander? What was the common approach?

MR KHUMALO: Your question was quite long, please repeat.

MR MOTEPE: I am sorry for that. After a person steals a car, rather you are in the selling branch, is that right?

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we could ask him, you said that you sold this vehicle on the 1st of December, was that the first time you had sold a stolen car or a robbed car?

MR KHUMALO: It was not the first sale.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe?

MR MOTEPE: But you have already explained to one of the Chair members that on that particular instance, Thulani might have reported to Mr Zongo, but you are not aware, you don't have first hand knowledge, is that right? You cannot say whether Thulani reported to Mr Zongo or not?

CHAIRPERSON: My impression was that Thulani came to him and then he took Thulani to Zongo?

MR MOTEPE: He did explain thereafter that Thulani might have reported first to Zongo?

CHAIRPERSON: No, he said he might have reported first to his Commander. He said that he understood Thulani to be a member of the SDU, then Mr de Jager said well, if he - and that he said that he had got orders to rob that vehicle, then Mr de Jager said, well, why then did he come to you and not go to his Commander and he said "well, he might have gone to his Commander", but he came to him and then he took him to Zongo.

MR MOTEPE: Perhaps I missed, I mixed the Commander with Zongo. But the point was that there was a report before he came to ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, he wasn't sure. He said he might have, he didn't know.

MR MOTEPE: That is correct, he was not sure. Now, we were at the stage where you were arrested by the police. What happened to the money, the R15 000-00? You had testified that you received R15 000-00, when you were arrested by the police, what happened to the money?

MR KHUMALO: It was confiscated by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, did you get the impression that what happened on the 6th was some sort of trap, police trap?

MR KHUMALO: No, we did not see anything.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that you were arrested?

MR KHUMALO: We were on our way back to Siluma and Peter was driving us. He informed us that there was a car behind us that was flickering its lights for him to stop. He then stopped and when he did so, some people who were in their private clothes, came out of this car and we realised that they were police and that is how we were arrested together with Peter. On our arrival at the police station, he was not taken inside, but he was just left outside the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Motepe?

MR MOTEPE: Mr Khumalo, you said this money that you acquired from hijackings were used, were going to be used rather to purchase arms, is that right?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR MOTEPE: What was the situation at the particular time in the township, why was there a need to purchase these arms?

MR KHUMALO: At that time, there was a war situation in the township, the war was between the ANC and the IFP who were residents of the hostel. We were of the belief that the IFP was supported by whites and we had to protect ourselves because they would attack and kill people in the township, therefore we had no other option, but to acquire weapons to protect ourselves.

MR MOTEPE: I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTEPE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motepe. Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Yes, just a few thank you Chairperson. In your amnesty application form you said that the orders were given to you on behalf, this was conducted on behalf and approval of the residents as a mass and that is where you basically got your orders from, can you explain that to us, how did that happen? It is on page 10 of the Bundle.

MR KHUMALO: As I have already mentioned, there was this war going on and there was a need for weapons. Mr Zongo is the person who came up with the idea that the community needs weapons to protect itself, therefore we should be able to raise funds for that purpose. That was how it transpired that some of us should go out to carry out robberies for those reasons. Mr Zongo is the person who informed us about the community, that is the information he would give us when he returned from meetings, community meetings.

MS LOCKHAT: As an SDU member, did you attend any meetings?

MR KHUMALO: No, I did not attend meetings because our activities were underground, undercover, because Mr Zongo was concerned that there were informers within the community who might endanger us.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are you saying Mr Khumalo that at an open mass meeting of the community, a decision was taken that cars be hijacked?

MR KHUMALO: I would say so because that was information that we received from Mr Zongo.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: Tell me, the day of the incident on the 1st of December, were you armed on that day?

MR KHUMALO: Yes.

MS LOCKHAT: And can you tell us what did you have on you, what arms and ammunition did you have on you?

MR KHUMALO: It was a small automatic firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: A pistol? Do you know what sort, what calibre?

MR KHUMALO: It is a small firearm that can take six bullets.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a pistol or a revolver?

MR KHUMALO: It is similar to the police service firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: Where did you get this firearm from, from whom?

MR KHUMALO: I received it from Mr Zongo.

MS LOCKHAT: And tell me, after you had given the money to Mr Zongo, do you know whether he in fact bought arms and ammunition for the community with that money?

MR KHUMALO: I would say so, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was do you know whether he did, not do you think he did. Do you know of your own knowledge whether he purchased weapons or whatever, ammunition?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I would sometimes see firearms.

JUDGE DE JAGER: When did you give him the first money, on what date?

MR KHUMALO: I did not understand that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: When was your first robbery and the selling of a vehicle, when did you give money to Zongo?

MR KHUMALO: I do not recall. The only dates that I remember is the 1st of December, because that was the date that was referred to in court.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but was that the first time you had given money to Zongo, which money was the proceeds of a robbed or stolen vehicle?

MR KHUMALO: No.

JUDGE DE JAGER: On how many occasions before that, did you give him money?

MR KHUMALO: The R10 000-00 that was handed over to Mr Zongo, was the second instance that I know of.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And how long before that instance did you give him money and how much?

MR KHUMALO: I think it was about R3 000-00 but I do not remember the date.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Wasn't it only a few days before the 1st of December, in fact the 26th of November, if that was the robbery? October?

MR KHUMALO: A couple of days had elapsed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination Mr Motepe?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTEPE: I do have. Mr Khumalo, you had testified earlier about Thulani who also had a hijacked car, are you - or rather were you the only ones who were supplying Mr Zongo with moneys from stolen cars, was it only you, Thulani and Boy or did you know of any other people who also supplied Zongo the money?

MR KHUMALO: I was aware, I thought it was just us, because we had volunteered to do these activities at the meeting.

MR MOTEPE: You thought it was just you, but are you sure that it was only you? You are sure? You mean that you are sure that it was only you, or there were other people, I didn't get it clearly?

MR KHUMALO: That is what I think because I was aware of just one, of our group. There were other groups that existed, but I was not aware of what their activities were.

MR MOTEPE: So if Mr Zongo had received some moneys from some of the people and he bought arms, would you know about that? Would you have first hand knowledge of him buying arms?

MR KHUMALO: No, I would not.

MR MOTEPE: So you used to see arms, but you did not know when for example were they bought, is that right?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR MOTEPE: I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTEPE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motepe. Judge de Jager, do you have any questions?

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: Just one aspect I want to clarify. Mr Khumalo, you made a statement to the TRC, didn't you, the statement which has been signed presumably by you on pages I, J, K and L after page 9, after the form. Have you got that?

CHAIRPERSON: Just immediately prior to page 11? The typed version is on page F.

MR MOTEPE: What particular page?

ADV SIGODI: It is J, the hand-written page, the hand-written J.

MR MOTEPE: Okay, thank you.

ADV SIGODI: Do you confirm that you made that statement to the TRC?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, okay, if you look on the second paragraph, you mention that as you were hijacking this man with the Mercedes Benz, Godfrey Sithole, the first applicant searched this man, do you see that? Godfrey found nothing from him and take away his watch, do you confirm that you said that?

MR KHUMALO: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Did he in fact take away the watch?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI

"And Godfrey also wanted to take this white man's ring, and the owner of the ring requested us not to take this ring. We left the ring and take the car away",

do you confirm that?

MR KHUMALO: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know what happened to the watch afterwards?

MR KHUMALO: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: What happened to it?

MR KHUMALO: It was given to Mr Zongo.

CHAIRPERSON: Why? Why did he take the watch if he asked you to rob motor vehicles? Why take a watch and give it to Mr Zongo?

MR KHUMALO: We required anything of value that could help us in our fund-raising campaign, particularly items made of gold. Those would be ideal for fund-raising.

CHAIRPERSON: While you are on that, sorry Adv Sigodi, if you take a look at page 36, you also took, or allegedly took his wallet and pens, is that correct? You were charged with stealing his wallet, pens and watch, as well as the car, and his ID document. Did you take his wallet and pen as well or did Sithole take his wallet and pen as well?

MR KHUMALO: We only found those things in the car, but I was not charged for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, this is your charge sheet here, I mean this is the charge sheet, this is a copy of the charge sheet. This comes from the court records.

MR KHUMALO: I would not dispute that. They used Afrikaans in court and I do not know the language, so I was not aware that there were such ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, I didn't follow the previous answer. We only found that in the car, or in the court?

INTERPRETER: Car.

CHAIRPERSON: In the car, that is the wallet, the pens.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the ID document?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, those items were found in the car. Not that we removed them from him, but were in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: Thank you. That is all Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a member of the SDU?

MR KHUMALO: I would say so.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean "I would say so", are you not sure or were you?

MR KHUMALO: I will put it this way, after my arrest, I learnt that some people had been registered and because we, I was part of the group that protected the community, that is what we called ourselves, SDU's.

CHAIRPERSON: So you only heard after your arrest that you were registered as an SDU, but when you were doing these things, you were unaware of that?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I would put it that way.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe, do you have any questions arising?

MR MOTEPE: I've got no questions, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTEPE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Khumalo, that concludes your testimony.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Are you leading any further evidence, Mr Motepe?

MR MOTEPE: No further evidence, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No further evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe?

MR MOTEPE IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson and members of the Committee, this sort of applications, whenever they are mentioned, one will raise eyebrows, especially in the circumstances we are living in today, where the hijackings are the order of the day. But perhaps we should just think back of the situation when communities were being attacked, riddled with violence and when the people who are attacking them, usually had sophisticated weaponry behind them, either by assistance of the State or otherwise. Unfortunately the communities at that particular times, did not have those sort of weapons and they needed the weapons desperately. One would concede that some of the methods that were used, were a bit unconventional, like hijacking cars obviously, but the community found itself in a desperate situation where they had to survive, and one of the decisions that was taken as the applicants have already testified, was that cars should be hijacked, items of value should be acquired and sold and the moneys used to buy those particular

weapons. The applicants cannot themselves say that they did see Mr Zongo buying weapons, but they had their orders from community leaders that they must go hijack cars and they brought back the moneys to Mr Zongo. There is nothing to suggest that they were working for their own pockets, that they actually received any reward. In fact what they received was what one would term as subsistence allowance, transport moneys and so forth. The applicants in their testimony perhaps they were a bit shaky there and there, but if one looks at the totality of their application, the essence is that yes, we have committed robbery, yes, we received moneys for the robbery and we handed the money to Mr Zongo. These events happened some five, six years ago, and one cannot be expected to be accurate to this day about some of the events. In my submission Chairperson, the applicants have satisfied the requirements of getting amnesty. They have given enough information, not one hundred percent satisfactory in all respects, but it is in my submission, the kind of evidence that thus entitle them to amnesty. They wanted to acquire arms to protect their community and that was the political objective that was sought to be achieved. I've got nothing further to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motepe. Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson. My submissions are the following in terms of the first applicant, that

is Mr Sithole. The first fact that he was not a member of the SDU's, he never attended any meetings in that area which can indicate to us that he was politically active, the people that he stated that had given him orders, were his landlord Ephraim and then their neighbour Stanley, who also happens to be in prison with him. It seems it would be easy to choose them as people giving orders, because they could probably corroborate all of this for them. In terms of, in my submission, this is purely criminal acts on the part of the applicant. In terms of the second applicant, in his application form, he stated that he was an ANC supporter and then in the later submission to the TRC, he states that he was a member of the Self Defence Unit. In his evidence he stated that he was a member, but he never attended any meetings, that he was reliant on Mr Zongo to furnish him with information and that he was acting on one would say an order given by the community at large, which also seems absurd in the circumstances. And then later, under cross-examination, he stated that afterwards he found out that he was a member of the SDU, so there is so many contradictions regarding his political affiliation. It is also my submission that these acts were basically criminal activities and that both applicants' amnesty applications be refused on that basis, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any response, Mr Motepe?

MR MOTEPE: I've got no response Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. That then brings us to the conclusion of this particular hearing, the applications of Messrs Sithole and Khumalo. We will reserve our decision in the matter and hand down the decision as soon as possible. Mr Motepe, does that bring your representations here to an end? I would like to thank you for your assistance that you have given to us over the past couple of days, thank you very much.

MR MOTEPE: Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MOTEPE: Chairperson, may I be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly Mr Motepe. Do you want us to reconvene or what, are you ready to proceed with the next matter now?

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, I am ready to proceed, I just want to see whether the legal representative and the applicants, or unless we can adjourn for lunch, but we don't know whether lunch is available.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what we will do is, we will take a five minute adjournment.

MS LOCKHAT: Just a short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: And you let us know and then we proceed, because lunch might only come at quarter past one or something like that.

MS LOCKHAT: Correct Chairperson. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a five minute adjournment before proceeding with the next matter.

MS LOCKHAT: All rise.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS