Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motloung, just come and sit here where Mr Tholwe was sitting now. Whilst you're there just remain standing and give us your full names.

MR MOTLOUNG: ...(indistinct) Johnny Mokete Motloung.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the names, Mr Interpreter?

MR MOTLOUNG: That's Andries Johnny Mokete Motloung.

ANDRIES JOHNNY MOKETE MOTLOUNG: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you can be seated. Ms Makhubele?

EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Motloung, you are an applicant in this matter.

MR MOTLOUNG: That's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: When were you born?

MR MOTLOUNG: In 1972.

INTERPRETER: Pardon, Chairperson, there seems to be a problem with his receiver.

MS MAKHUBELE: You were born in 1972, you ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat the question, I was just trying to find out whether he speaks Sotho or Tswana.

MS MAKHUBELE: Okay, you said you were born in 1972, you are 27 years old now.

MR MOTLOUNG: That's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: Where did you grow up?

MR MOTLOUNG: At Kokosi.

MS MAKHUBELE: You're still living there?

MR MOTLOUNG: That's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: How far did you go at school?

MR MOTLOUNG: In standard, but I was in jail then.

MS MAKHUBELE: You only completed standard eight, when?

MR MOTLOUNG: In 1993

MS MAKHUBELE: On the 13th of March 1992, at Potchefstroom, you were convicted of murder and you were sentenced to 10 years, 2 suspended for 5 years, is this correct?

MR MOTLOUNG: That's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: You have been released on parole, can you tell us when?

MR MOTLOUNG: I was released in 1997, on the 13th of March.

MS MAKHUBELE: How many years had you served of your sentence?

MR MOTLOUNG: 5 years.

MS MAKHUBELE: Somewhere in your life before your conviction you got involved in politics, can you tell us when and which political organisation you were involved in.

MR MOTLOUNG: I joined politics in 1990. I joined the ANC Youth League at Kokosi.

MS MAKHUBELE: What motivated you?

MR MOTLOUNG: What motivated me to join politics was the situation under which we lived under white people at that place. After Nelson Mandela was released from prison we were happy about that, but after that the white people were attacking us, spraying us with the teargas because they were not happy about the release of our President, and that showed me that they were not happy when we are happy for the release of our leader. So they were spraying us with teargas and that motivated me to join a political organisation so that I could fight against those people who were oppressing the black people.

MS MAKHUBELE: Did you have any position in that organisation?

MR MOTLOUNG: I was just an additional member.

MS MAKHUBELE: Other than the fact that police sprayed you with teargas when you were happy, what was the climate then, political climate, was there any violence for example and things like that?

MR MOTLOUNG: No, before Nelson Mandela was released from prison, Kokosi was a quiet place and there were no political organisations there.

MS MAKHUBELE: Obviously things changed. When and after what happened?

MR MOTLOUNG: The situation changed when white properties were burnt and that's what started the violence because we viewed their properties as our targets.

MS MAKHUBELE: So you burnt them.

MR MOTLOUNG: That's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: In retaliation did anything happen to you as an organisation?

MR MOTLOUNG: We were arrested under the State of Emergency and detained for about three months.

MS MAKHUBELE: Okay, let's come to the incident that led to your conviction. According to the documents you were convicted for killing one, Fanie Nkwane. Did you know him?

MR MOTLOUNG: Yes, I did kill Fanie Nkwane.

MS MAKHUBELE: Before you killed him did you know him?

MR MOTLOUNG: Yes, I did.

MS MAKHUBELE: Personally, or how did you come to know Fanie?

MR MOTLOUNG: I knew Fanie in Kutsong because I attended school in Kutsong. He used to live next to where my grandmother was in Kutsong. I used to see him as an individual and I knew his name, but we were not involved in politics then. And then we became much closer when he came to our township to visit his grandmother, but we had nothing that we would discuss together.

I started talking to him in 1990, when he came with other boys. They fled from Kutsong to our township. That was the first time that I did talk to Fanie.

MS MAKHUBELE: What were they feeing from?

MR MOTLOUNG: There was violence in Kutsong. They were attacked and shot by white people because they were burning those targets.

MS MAKHUBELE: Was this after you had formed in Kokosi?

MR MOTLOUNG: That's correct. I knew him personally after we have launched an ANC branch in Kokosi.

MS MAKHUBELE: On the day that Fanie was killed, the 25th of January 1991, what happened?

MR MOTLOUNG: On the 25th of January 1991, I had visited my girlfriend, that is in Kijima Street. While I was still there, Nororo came to me and he said to me John Kekana wants to see me, he is with Fanie at his shack, then I said to my girlfriend that I'm coming.

I went to that shack and when I entered Kekana's shack the deceased was there together with the late Thabang, and I asked John Kekana where he got Fanie and then he said to me "I met him in my street when I was going to work".

Then I sat down and I started asking Fanie questions, because before I asked him questions I was intending to go to Kutsong because I had already learnt that Fanie was now a vigilante and I also saw him in the company of other members of the vigilante.

I started asking him questions as to why he had left the organisation to join the vigilante. He said to me those people wanted to kill him, that is why he joined them because he wanted to protect himself so that he could not be killed. So I asked him "Why are you coming to Fochsville"? Then he said to me he was coming to collect information from Marinkie, because Marinkie was sent here by the vigilante group to spy on us. ...(intervention)

MS MAKHUBELE: Can you slow down a bit please.

MR MOTLOUNG: He said to us that he was coming to collect information from Marinkie and take it back to Kutsong, because Marinkie was sent to Kutsong to collect information.

MS MAKHUBELE: You said - who was there when you got to John's place?

MR MOTLOUNG: It was John Kekana and the late Thabang.

MS MAKHUBELE: Only?

MR MOTLOUNG: That's correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: And who else arrived after your arrival?

MR MOTLOUNG: After my arrival Lucky arrived and then after him Tsietsi Tholwe arrived and another guy called Oupa.

MS MAKHUBELE: What position was this John Kekana? In what position was he in the ANC Youth League?

MR MOTLOUNG: John Kekana was in the Disciplinary Committee of the ANC Youth League.

MS MAKHUBELE: After Fanie was asked questions, what happened?

MR MOTLOUNG: After we had asked him questions we took a decision that Fanie should be killed because we knew that he was always in the company of the vigilante group and we knew that that group was very dangerous, so we knew if we release him those people will come back and they will kill us because he will give them information about our hide-outs.

MS MAKHUBELE: Did you decide how he was to be killed?

MR MOTLOUNG: Yes, we did. We took a decision that he should be burnt, but because it was already late, we then took a decision not to burn him because the people will recognise the light. So we wanted to kill him so that the people should not know who killed him.

MS MAKHUBELE: So what did you do then to achieve that?

MR MOTLOUNG: We took him to the river ...(intervention)

MS MAKHUBELE: Was he walking on his own?

MR MOTLOUNG: Yes, he was walking on his own, but we were surrounding him. He was not screaming he was quiet. When we arrived at the river we started stabbing him.

MS MAKHUBELE: How did you stab him, or did you stab him at all?

MR MOTLOUNG: Yes, I did.

MS MAKHUBELE: With what?

MR MOTLOUNG: I stabbed him with a knife that we used to call Rambo.

MS MAKHUBELE: Do you know how many other people stabbed him, other than yourself?

MR MOTLOUNG: It was myself, Tsietsi, Lucky, Thabang, who is now deceased, Oupa.

MS MAKHUBELE: After stabbing him, what did you do with him?

MR MOTLOUNG: We pushed him into the river.

MS MAKHUBELE: Was he already dead?

MR MOTLOUNG: I'm not certain about that.

MS MAKHUBELE: Do you know if it was your organisation's policy to kill people and what kind of people were to be killed?

MR MOTLOUNG: I would not say it was the policy of the organisation but what I would say is, the circumstances at that time, because we realised that the vigilante groups and the police were well armed and the police were not investigating the cases about what the vigilante group did, so we decided that the best was to kill them.

MS MAKHUBELE: Who were these vigilantes, were they a political organisation? You said Fanie had left the ANC to join them.

MR MOTLOUNG: I would not say this group was linked to a political organisation, it was just a group that was working hand-in-hand with the police, helping the police to arrest those people who were members of the ANC. Because the police were unable to arrest us, they were using this group of vigilantes to arrest us. So I would not say that it was a political organisation.

MS MAKHUBELE: Other than your political differences with Fanie, did you have any personal fight with him?

MR MOTLOUNG: No. When he joined the vigilante, that is when we were no longer in a good relationship with him.

MS MAKHUBELE: You are now applying for amnesty that you be forgiven for your part in killing Fanie, what can you tell this Tribunal?

MR MOTLOUNG: I've been troubled by this incident even in prison, because I killed somebody who today could help his parents and when I remember those old days, our friendship with Fanie and our political activities, I was always troubled by that in jail and again the fact that his parents did not know what happened to their son, it is really painful to me. I would like to thank Nelson Mandela when he started this TRC, so that we can come forward and ask for forgiveness from those we have wronged.

So through the Truth Commission I would ask forgiveness from Fanie's mother. What I did was not my intention, that is how the situation was at that time of apartheid. I am hurt because I have killed somebody who would be a leader tomorrow. Thank you.

MS MAKHUBELE: Did you know Fanie's parents?

MR MOTLOUNG: No.

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you, Motloung. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ma'am.

MS VILAKAZI: Yes, I have questions, thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Go ahead.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI: Mr Motloung, you say you are very sorry for what you did.

MR MOTLOUNG: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: Because you killed someone who would be a leader today.

MR MOTLOUNG: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: You feel remorseful for what you did.

MR MOTLOUNG: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: And you feel sorry for the family as well.

MR MOTLOUNG: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: If that is so, why don't you just tell the family the real reason why Fanie was killed and stop hiding behind this political matter that was not the position?

MR MOTLOUNG: What I can tell Fanie's mother is that Fanie was indeed a member of the vigilante group. Even the people of Kutsong knew that Fanie was a member of the vigilante group. I also saw him with my eyes on two occasions in the company of the members of that vigilante group, and he also said that he was a member of the vigilante. There's no other people again who said that he was a member of the vigilante group except our comrades and himself, Fanie.

MS VILAKAZI: So you persist that Fanie was a member of the vigilante group?

MR MOTLOUNG: That was not perception, I saw him in the company of them.

MS VILAKAZI: You have testified earlier on that before the date of the killing you had wanted to talk to Fanie, you wanted to go to Kutsong to talk to Fanie and ask him why he belongs to the vigilante group. Did I hear you well?

MR MOTLOUNG: No.

MS VILAKAZI: So you've never had an intention of talking to Fanie about his political affiliation?

MR MOTLOUNG: Let me put it this way. Because I knew that Fanie was in the company of people who were very cruel, then I hated Fanie because he was a member of the ANC, we used to burn targets together and I knew that Fanie was a brave person. So I was regarding him as an enemy then.

MS VILAKAZI: I think I heard you well saying that you wanted to Kutsong to ask him, but anyway ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, he didn't say he wanted to ask him, he said he wanted to go to Kutsong, but he never gave a reason why. He said, before this day of the killing he wanted to go to Kutsong. He never said he wanted to go and talk to the deceased about his involvement with the vigilantes.

MS VILAKAZI: In that event, I will abandon that line of questioning, thanks Mr Chairman.

Who were your leaders in the ANC at Kokosi?

MR MOTLOUNG: It was Mzwake, he was the President of the ANC Youth League, and the Chairlady was Sheila. Unfortunately I've forgotten her surname. I did not know who held other positions.

MS VILAKAZI: But were there other people in that hierarchy, besides Mzwake and Sheila?

MR MOTLOUNG: Yes.

MS VILAKAZI: Who else was a member of the Committee?

MR MOTLOUNG: There were many but I have forgotten them, I only remember Sheila and Mzwake. I have forgotten who was the Secretary and other positions as well.

MS VILAKAZI: And what was your position?

MR MOTLOUNG: I did not have a position, I was just an additional member.

MS VILAKAZI: Additional member of the Committee?

MR MOTLOUNG: No.

MS VILAKAZI: What do you mean by "additional member"? Do you mean ordinary member of the organisation?

MR MOTLOUNG: Yes, I was just an ordinary member of the organisation.

MS VILAKAZI: But did you understand the functioning of the organisation? You spoke about the Executive Committee and then at some stage you referred to the Disciplinary Committee, who was in the Disciplinary Committee?

MR MOTLOUNG: The Disciplinary Committee comprised of John Kekana, Mr Kholwe, Thabang, Lucky, Oupa and many more others that I have forgotten. I would only mention those that I remember.

MS VILAKAZI: What was the function of the Disciplinary Committee, do you know?

MR MOTLOUNG: I don't know because I was not in the Disciplinary Committee.

MS VILAKAZI: But then if you were not in the Disciplinary Committee, why did you take part in interrogating the deceased? Because apparently it was called by Kekana, who was a member of the Disciplinary Committee and Kholwe was there as a member of the Disciplinary Committee, so why did you take part?

MR MOTLOUNG: I took part because I was concerned about this matter involving Fanie. I knew him very well, I wanted to know and I wanted to ascertain whether he was a member of the vigilante group and he actually said that to me that he was a member of the vigilante group. That is the reason why I took part in asking him questions and that is the reason why I took his life as well.

MS VILAKAZI: When did he tell you that he's a member of the vigilante group?

MR MOTLOUNG: That is the time when we asked him questions in that shack. He said that to me while I was asking him questions.

MS VILAKAZI: Ja, but I want to know at the time when you went to be part of this interrogation, you did not know that he was a vigilante and you were not a member of the DC, so what was your reason for taking part?

MR MOTLOUNG: I already knew then that he was a member of the vigilante group because I knew before other people could know that he was a member of the vigilante group, because I heard that when I went to visit my grandmother in Kutsong. I saw him on two occasion in the company of those people and then when I came back to our township I told my fellow comrades that he has joined the vigilante group.

MS VILAKAZI: I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ma'am. Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Panel?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions.

MR LAX: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MS MAKHUBELE: None, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Motloung, you're excused, thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case for the applicants?

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS MAKHUBELE: The implicated person is here, I don't know whether the Committee will call him or if I should ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, we don't want to call him and I assume you also don't want to call him.

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any witnesses, Ms Vilakazi?

MS VILAKAZI: Just one witness, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, who is that?

MS VILAKAZI: I call Mrs Nkwane, the mother to the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you call her please? Ms Nkwane, can you come to the witness stand. I suppose she'll have to sit there at that microphone. Mrs Nkwane, just remain standing and can you give us your full names please.

NO RECORDING OF OATH OR THE START OF EXAMINATION

EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI: ... are you in a position to forgive?

MS NKWANE: Yes, I will forgive them.

MS VILAKAZI: I just want to ask you a few questions concerning your son's political activities. Did you know your son, Fanie, to belong to any organisation, political organisation?

MS NKWANE: He was a member of the ANC.

MS VILAKAZI: How did you know that he belonged to the ANC?

MS NKWANE: I knew because we used to go together to attend meetings at the local hall.

MS VILAKAZI: And were those meetings ANC meetings?

MS NKWANE: No, those were the meetings for adults, people who call themselves NAC. - yes, ANC. It's because I don't understand these things, so I think it's ANC.

MS VILAKAZI: But you attended meetings of people who call themselves ANC or NAC, as you understood it, with your son?

MS NKWANE: I would just attend those meetings when I heard that there's a meeting like when Mr Mandela used to come.

MS VILAKAZI: Do you know the emblem of the organisation of Mr Mandela?

MS NKWANE: Yes, I do.

MS VILAKAZI: Do you know what it looks like?

MS NKWANE: It's blue, yellow and black colours.

MS VILAKAZI: Did you son have any type of clothing or anything that had that emblem?

MS NKWANE: No, he never had such clothing.

MS VILAKAZI: Did he have any badges or something of that sort?

MS NKWANE: Yes, he had them. They use to buy them at Power Store.

MS VILAKAZI: Did they look like those of the organisation of Mr Mandela?

MS NKWANE: Yes, although they were not that clear, but they looked like those.

MS VILAKAZI: Is there any time when your son, Fanie, ran away from home because of any reason?

MS NKWANE: No.

MS VILAKAZI: Did your son ever go to Fochsville?

MS NKWANE: Yes, at his grandmother's place.

MS VILAKAZI: At the time of his death - he was killed in Fochsville, do you know he landed there?

MS NKWANE: He told us that he's going to visit his granny on Friday, but he did not come back on Saturday and then on Monday we heard that he's been killed.

MS VILAKAZI: So he left home to go and visit his grandmother in Fochsville.

MS NKWANE: That's correct.

MS VILAKAZI: I have no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Vilakazi. Ms Makhubele, have you got any questions?

MS MAKHUBELE: No questions, Mr Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

MR LAX: No questions.

MR SIBANYONI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume you don't have anything further.

MS VILAKAZI: Ja, that will be the case, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Nkwane, thank you very much for coming, you're excused.

MS NKWANE: I thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Makhubele, have you got any submissions on the merits of the case? Bearing in mind that it's not being opposed.

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, Mr Chair, can I just - for both, not individually?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MAKHUBELE IN ARGUMENT: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman, I submit that the applicants have made out a case that their actions comply with the requirements of the Act, not only the requirements, but that they have made a full disclosure. Although I do not have the court records, but from the submissions made by the Attorney-General, one can safely assume that even during their trial some evidence was given which at the end it was found that there was a political motive. And as the Committee has seen the two young men before it, they were also victims in the sense that they were still young, they have lost their youth in that their schooling was interrupted, they have, unlike most applicants, they have already served their due in that they have served their sentences and they are now back in the community and they really want the community to forgive them. That is all that I can state.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ma'am. Ms Vilakazi, have you got any submissions?

MS VILAKAZI IN ARGUMENT: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. The only thing that needs to be looked at I submit, is to verify the political objective of the incident. As I had indicated, my instructions were that the deceased was a member of the ANC and he never belonged to any political organisation. It is unfortunate that Mrs Nkwane was not able to verify that coherently, but I think that is understandable ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very much so. Parents are - and I'm speaking from personal experience, parents are always the last to know what their children do.

MS VILAKAZI: But then the picture that has been painted is that the applicants were friends with the deceased and they knew that he was not a member of any other political organisation than the one that they belonged to.

So on that basis I would just leave it to the Committee to use its discretion and to take a decision on that. Thank you, Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Vilakazi. Ms Mtanga, have you got any submissions?

MS MTANGA: No submissions, Chairperson, I'll leave it in your hands.

NO ARGUMENT BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I assume you don't have anything further.

MS MAKHUBELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, that concludes the formal part of this matter. The Panel will consider the evidence and the applications and will notify the interested parties once the decision is available. So under the circumstances we will reserve the decision in this matter. It just remains for us to thank the legal representatives, Ms Makhubele, Ms Vilakazi, Ms Mtanga, for your assistance in this matter. Thank you very much.

MS VILAKAZI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the tea adjournment at this stage and obviously I assume that Mr Koopedi's matter will then be prepared.

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for 15 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS