CHAIRPERSON: Today we'll be commencing with hearing of Mr Sipho Nthandi. I would at this stage request the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.
MR KOOPEDI: My name is Brian Koopedi, I appear on behalf of the applicant, Mr Sipho Nthandi.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi.
MS COLERIDGE: My name is Lyn Coleridge and I appear on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Coleridge. Just before we start, I notice some people don't have these devices. These proceedings are simultaneously interpreted. If you wish to benefit from the interpretation, you must be in possession of one of these devices. They are available from the sound technician and then you just tune into the correct channel for the language you wish, it's either Afrikaans, channel 1, English channel 2 and Sotho channel 3.
Mr Koopedi, I take it your client will be testifying?
MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so. He will be testifying in Zulu, Chairperson.
MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, just before we commence, I just want to place on record that Sgt Morgets, that is the person's home that was attacked, we could not trace him, Chairperson. We contacted the Orlando Police Station where he worked and we advertised in the Soweto newspapers, Chairperson and we've had no response to date. So as far as the victim is concerned, the matter is unopposed Chairperson. In terms of the implicated parties, we have informed the attorneys for Ms Winnie Mandela, ...(indistinct) attorneys. Then the other implicated parties, Chairperson, Margaret Stefile ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry Ms Coleridge, could you put your's a bit nearer? Thanks.
MS COLERIDGE: Margaret Stefile has been notified. She was here yesterday as well, Chairperson. She's aware of the hearing commencing today. Philemon Monziwe was also here yesterday, he's not here today. They're all aware of it. Then there's a Mr Mavuso and a Daliem ...(indistinct), Chairperson. They have all been duly notified.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Coleridge. I take it with the first named victim all reasonable steps have been taken to get hold of him, but without success?
MS COLERIDGE: Correct, Chairperson.
SIPHO NTHANDI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Before I proceed, I would perhaps first request the Honourable Committee to condone non-compliance with attestation. The applicant's application form was not signed before a Commissioner of Oaths.
CHAIRPERSON: We noticed that, that's page 8 of the document. I think if he could confirm the contents of it under oath here, then we'll be in a position to condone it.
MR KOOPEDI: We will start by doing that.
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Mr Nthandi, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter?
MR NTHANDI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Now I am showing you a document from the bundle of documents before us. It's page 2, Honourable Chairperson, right through to page 8. Is this your application form?
MR NTHANDI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: And do you confirm the contents thereof, that you wrote what is in it?
MR NTHANDI: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now is it also correct that you are applying for amnesty for two incidents? The first incident being the planting of two limpid mines at Orlando police station around October 1989 and the second incident being an attack on a police man's house, Sgt Morgets, during December 1989?
MR NTHANDI: That is correct.
JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct - mike not on)
MR KOOPEDI: 89.
JUDGE DE JAGER: The first one is planting two limpet mines in October 19..?
MR KOOPEDI: 89.
JUDGE DE JAGER: 89.
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, at the Orlando ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: At Orlando?
MR KOOPEDI: Orlando Police station.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes and the second one?
MR KOOPEDI: The second one is the attack on a policeman's house.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Koopedi and there's mention of shooting a policeman, when was that? The same incident?
MR KOOPEDI: It's the same incident, this attack encompasses the shooting, this is Sgt Morgets' house.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, how do you spell that name, Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: Morgets, it's spelled M-O-R-G-E-T-S.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that during February 1990?
MR KOOPEDI: No that is December 89.
CHAIRPERSON: December 1989.
MR KOOPEDI: Perhaps for the sake of clarity and for the Honourable Committee to be able to follow the proceedings easily, the two incidents occurred both in 1989, October and December and the dates that are appearing which are 1988 and February 1990, are mistakes of some sort. There are no incidents for which amnesty is sought during those times.
CHAIRPERSON: And you say, I mean just to get this clear, if you can take a look at paragraph 9(a), Mr Koopedi, it talks about bombing of Orlando police station. That's fine, we've got that, October 1989. Then it says
"Raid and bombing of a policeman's house with intention to kill"
and then the date there is December 1989 and then it's got
"shooting of a policeman"
and also a date, February 1990, so that shooting of policeman, is that a part of the attack on Sgt Morgets' house?
MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so. My instructions are that the raid and bombing of a policeman's house, with intention to kill, shooting of a policeman, all this refers to the one incident, the attack on Sgt Morgets' house.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So this clearly, as it appears in sub-paragraph 2 or 9(a), that date 1999 is clearly wrong, I mean that should be 1989.
MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And then that 1990 February as you said, is just some sort of mistake, it shouldn't be ...
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, some incident for which amnesty is not being sought, occurred during February 1990.
CHAIRPERSON: And also if one takes a look at sub-paragraph 3, it says that the places where these incidents took place was Orlando East. I take it, I don't know, but just from the way it's set out here, I take it that's where the police station is situated?
MR KOOPEDI: That is so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And then I don't know, it's got Orlando West, Diepkloof and White City, unless this was a mobile home that was attacked on the move, or why are there so many places here?
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, Orlando West is the place where Sgt Morgets resided. Now the Diepkloof and White City are the places where I say that something happened during February 1990, for which amnesty is not being sought. Applicant was in hiding then. There was some shooting near where he was. Yes, he's not applying for amnesty for that.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson. Now Mr Nthandi, during October 1989, were you a member of any political organisation and if so, which one?
MR NTHANDI
In 1988 I got to know people like Sizwe and other comrades from Orlando West, as I staying in Orlando East, they were residing in Orlando West. It happened that in 1989 I joined the underground structures, MK structure. Sizwe was the Commander of the underground structures and I knew him as a trained person. He was also Mrs Mandela's son-in-law's step son.
In 1989 an instruction was issued that we should attack the Orlando Police Station. I had to undergo a crash course to handle a bomb. That crash course was conducted by Sizwe. I was given two limpet mines. The Orlando Police Station was in my neighbourhood, therefore I could be able to monitor the movements in the Orlando Police Station.
On that particular day I was coming from school. It was month end and I knew that during month end, the police were normally busy and twelve o'clock was the right time to visit the prisoners. People would be there going up and down, getting in and getting out of the police station and it would be easier to do anything because it was month end and a visiting time. The day before he gave me that bomb and I took it home. The following day I left for school. At about lunch-time I left to set this bomb, to prepare it. There was a library opposite the Orlando Police Station and I put it in the library and then I got into the police station in Orlando. My intention was to plant this bomb in the toilet.
When I arrived there, I saw policemen busy drinking in the toilets. I realised that I cannot do it there and I left. I went up the stairs at the police station, going to the Station Commander's office. When I arrived there and I saw a clerk, it became apparent to me that I won't be able to plant this bomb and there was another office next to this other office, the office that was used as the canteen and even there, there were other policemen dining there and I couldn't plant the bomb there and I was becoming scared, because time was just moving on, because I was scared that - I was told about the time delay, that the one that was on there was a five minute time delay and I could realise that 5 minutes had elapsed and I went back telling myself that I was going to throw it there at the reception and unfortunately when I got there, there were people visiting the prisoners. There were so many people there who were still registering to get in. I thought to myself that innocent people would die and I decided to get out of the Orlando Police Station. There was a house in front of the Orlando Police Station, just a small house, where the police sit when they are guarding. I saw the police basking in the sun outside their guard room and then I got into the guard room and I planted it under the table and then I left.
After crossing the street, after walking for about 150 to 200 metres, I saw policemen stopping the cars on the street and then I left the scene and when I was somewhere on the road, I heard the explosion. I went back. On that particular night I went to Diepkloof.
MR KOOPEDI: That is as far as the incident in October 89. Now during December 1989,...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Koopedi, sorry to interrupt, so you know whether anybody was injured as a result of that blast, Mr Nthandi?
MR NTHANDI: No, I know nothing because I never went back to the scene after that.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Perhaps if one would assist in the question asked, from the documents supplied to us it appears no-one was injured and in fact that explosion was triggered off by the police.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I just wanted to get it on record.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Now during December 1989 ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: What I - you mentioned earlier it was the placing that it was the placing of two limpet mines, did I mishear you when you were saying what you are applying for?
MR KOOPEDI: Maybe, yes, those were ...
CHAIRPERSON: Was it one limpet mine that was put in the guard room and then you mentioned about leaving a mine in the library, so something. Just clear that up please.
MR NTHANDI: There were two limpet mines. I did not explain very well. There were two limpet mines in the plastic. I left both of them at the police station.
MR KOOPEDI: Now at the library, what were you doing at the library?
MR NTHANDI: That was where I was preparing them, inserting the detonators and the other stuff. I left for the police station with these two limpet mines in a carrier bag. This is where I started to prepare them in the library and then I left the library because the library was just opposite the police station, it's just across the street.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Now shall we go to the incident in December 1989 and perhaps before we even go there, after this explosion were you still in contact with Sizwe, that is the police station,the Orlando police station explosion, were you still in contact with Sizwe?
MR NTHANDI: What happened is this. Sizwe, as I said, he was staying somewhere else. Just after this explosion on the same day, during the night, if I want to see Sizwe I would go to Diepkloof Extension, I would get there and tell the boys or talk to Mama and tell her that I wanted to meet with Sizwe, that is where we used to meet and then he would further suggest another place to meet because Sizwe didn't know my home and I also didn't know his home where he used to hide. On that very same day I left for Diepkloof Extension. I first talked to Guybooi and I told him about the incident and Mama called me and told me that she heard that I had planted a bomb at the police station, then he asked me if there were any casualties. I said I didn't see anything. I left the scene immediately. He asked me if I was sure that no-one was injured.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you ask him to go a bit slower, we can't keep up taking notes.
MR KOOPEDI: You can proceed.
MR NTHANDI: On the following day they said they were going to send someone. There was a young man who was staying there in that neighbourhood and we were at the same school. His name was Gazaza.
CHAIRPERSON: Just, if you could spell that name.
MR NTHANDI: G-A-Z-A-Z-A.
MR SIBANYONI: While you are still there, you said you were talking about Mama, to whom are you referring by "Mama"?
MR NTHANDI: I am referring to Mrs Madikizele Mandela.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue.
MR KOOPEDI: Ja now, okay. The - I want us to get to the incident in December 1989. Did Sizwe say anything to you during December about an attack?
MR NTHANDI
We met with Sizwe in the morning. We were together for the whole day. In the evening he told me that I am not supposed to get any information 5 hours in advance because sometimes it may happen that I would inform somebody else by mistake and then he told me in the evening that he wanted me to go with him to the Orlando West, there was a policeman who was harassing the comrades and he's been a sell-out for a very long time and he said he wanted us to go there and attack that policeman. We had to attack the policeman and he said the first step would be, when we got to the premises, we won't get inside the house, we were going to shoot from the outside. He said I was going to have one AK47 and he was also going to be armed the same. We were two in this mission.
Late at night at about 8 we went to fetch Matopa, Norman, at his home because we had a problem because no-one would be able to drive a car. We got hold of Norman. Norman was going to be the driver and hew as going to park the car at a certain place and he wouldn't be involved in the incident. Goodman came, we were playing music with him and the time came for us to leave and we decided that we cannot leave Goodman behind.
We got into the car, myself, Goodman, Norman and Sizwe. I was armed with an AK47.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Please go a bit slower. We've got to write down what you're saying and otherwise we'll forget what you're saying and then we can't deal with everything you've been telling us.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was Goodman? Was he a friend of yours? Where does Goodman fit into it? You say Goodman came and you sat and listened to music and then you realised that you couldn't go without Goodman, so he came with you in the car, but who was Goodman?
MR NTHANDI: He was just a friend.
CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't an MK operative or anything like that?
MR NTHANDI
At the time I wasn't sure whether he was a member
of the underground, as I explained initially that we were residing at different places, we would meet sometimes, we would meet at White City. Goodman was also residing at White City. We decided that we cannot leave Goodman behind. As Goodman and Norman came, we had the AK 47 ready in the car, the blue Stanza and when they came, we told them to leave with us. We had already told Norman at the time, but we didn't tell Goodman about the whole mission at the time.
We got into the vehicle. It was a Stanza type of a car. Goodman was occupying the front passenger seat next to the driver. Myself and Sizwe were at the back seat. We went to Orlando West and then we instructed him to park the car next to Uncle Tom's. There were four streets between Uncle Tom's and the place, the Orlando house where we were going. The car was parked under the trees. He just saw us taking the AK47's from the back of the car. Sizwe had his own and the .38 rifle, then he took this .38, gave it to Goodman and then he told him to leave with him. We alighted from the vehicle. He's the one who knew the place very well, Sizwe, that is. I was following and then after myself there was Goodman.
We went to that particular place, the house. There was a long wall fence. He took out a hand grenade, then he threw it to me, he gave it to me and then I took it. He changed his mind and then he took this grenade back and then he said he was going to throw the grenade, then he told me to come closer to the wall fence and lie down and then he said after throwing the hand grenade, after the explosion, we were going to jump the wall fence, because he knew where the guy's bedroom was. Then he threw the grenade. After that there was an explosion. I jumped the wall fence. I was the first one to jump. Just after that, I fired towards the burning room and then he was going towards the bedroom, so I shot - fired at the windows which were facing the street. He went to the other side of the house. I'm the first one to pull the trigger and then when he went to the other side of the house, he started firing. Goodman was still on the street, he never jumped the wall fence. We fired. I had one full magazine and then he had the same. I continued firing until the magazine was finished. I then said it was wise for us to get into the house and we met at a corridor on the other side of the house. I had stopped firing and he was still firing because he had some ammunition and then I told him that it was wise for us to get inside the house, but he refused, he told us to leave.
We jumped the wall fence and we took Goodman. We left.
We were running and we got into the car where Norman was. Norman started the car, but the car failed and then we had to push the car. On our way, he decided to take this .38 rifle, there were still bullets because Goodman never used the ammunition.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, at any stage regarding these two operations, were you ever instructed by Mrs Mandela, to perform this operation?
MR NTHANDI: No. What happened was this. Sizwe told me that Mrs Mandela was fully aware of this and in my mind I thought that he was telling the truth, because Sizwe once told me one day before this incident, as we were discussing, and he asked me if I knew that Mama, Mrs Mandela that is, was the Commander, but when he told me that Mrs Mandela was fully aware of this incident, I thought that he knew this - that she knew about this and they were communicating with Mrs Mandela.
MR KOOPEDI: Is that the reason why you have stated that she gave you the order in your application form, or you said it was with her approval to go to. That is page 6, Chairperson.
MR NTHANDI: Yes, I took it as if she approves everything. Sizwe wouldn't do anything without Mrs Mandela's approval.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that, mr Nthandi, is just your understanding of it, I mean you don't have any direct knowledge of it.
MR NTHANDI: Yes, that is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now these two actions, do you think they were politically motivated, or even had a political objective?
MR NTHANDI: I took it as if they were politically motivated because the victims were police and the police station. We wanted the police to resign. I regarded the police as part and parcel of the instruments of operation.
MR KOOPEDI: Now in as far as you can remember, have you told this Honourable Committee the whole truth? Have you fully disclosed all the relevant facts to this Honourable Committee?
MR NTHANDI: I think I have explained everything. I have told the Committee about everything.
MR KOOPEDI: Now for these two operations, did you receive any personal gain, financially or otherwise?
MR NTHANDI: No.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that is the evidence-in-chief of the applicant. Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Koopedi. Ms Coleridge, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?
MS COLERIDGE: Yes, thank you, Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE: Mr Nthandi, you said in your amnesty application form that you were second in Command of the underground unit in Soweto. Was Sizwe, was he the Commander of that underground unit in Soweto?
MR NTHANDI: Yes, that is correct.
MS COLERIDGE: What did your duties entail as second in command?
MR NTHANDI: As second in command, sometimes, I would go to - we would go to Mrs Mandela's house and do some garden work.
MS COLERIDGE: Anything else?
MR NTHANDI: We would check on school children and check among the schools if the students or pupils were participating in political activities, because there were problems in the township. There were gangsters, the ...(indistinct) who were harassing the school children.
MS COLERIDGE: Was this an MK unit that you belonged to? Is that what you're talking about, an underground unit?
MR NTHANDI: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nthandi, do you know how many members the unit consisted of?
MR NTHANDI: I cannot say for sure because sometimes you would see people and those people would just disappear without knowing where they were. I cannot say for sure how many people were they, because no-one was allowed to ask such questions.
CHAIRPERSON: And is it correct that Sizwe is now deceased?
MR NTHANDI: Yes, that is true.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Coleridge.
MS COLERIDGE: You said just before the Orlando police station incident that you went on a crash course. How long did this crash course take?
MR NTHANDI: I can say it was only four nights, four to five nights, because the course would only take place during the night.
MS COLERIDGE: How many people were on the course?
MR NTHANDI: Six people.
MS COLERIDGE: ; Did you know for what operations you were training for, when you went for that course?
MR NTHANDI: We were trained as to how to assemble the firearm and how to assemble and administer the hand grenades, that was the content of the course.
MS COLERIDGE: Who were the other people on the course? You said there were six people, can you mention their names?
MR NTHANDI: I do not know their names. Some people were speaking the Zulu language and I think those were coming from Durban and then the others were speaking Xhosa and I thought they were coming from Port Elizabeth or Transkei because they were speaking this fluent language and we were not allowed to introduce ourselves to one another and ask about our residential places.
MS COLERIDGE: So you were on course with these people for four to five days and you didn't know who they were. Their code names for instance, did you find that out? I'm sure you must have had code names.
MR NTHANDI: Yes, there were code names.
MS COLERIDGE: Can you give us their code names?
MR NTHANDI: My code name was Dropping Loose, the other one was Tiger, the other one was Mabazo, Themba, Mandla and Jabo.
MS COLERIDGE: And was Sizwe the only one that was the instructor?
MR NTHANDI: Yes.
MS COLERIDGE: You mentioned a person by the name of Guybooi that went with you to Diepkloof and so forth, what was his real name?
MR NTHANDI: I only knew him as Guybooi.
MS COLERIDGE: You said when you got to Diepkloof there were other people there, there were other boys and you spoke to Mama, did you speak to her, as you said it was Winnie Mandela, did you speak to her yourself in relation to this incident, the Orlando police station incident?
MR NTHANDI: Yes, we were talking together.
MS COLERIDGE: Was Ms Winnie Mandela there? Was she present when you were talking?
JUDGE DE JAGER: I understand the answer to be that he spoke to her personally, so she must have been there.
MS COLERIDGE: Thank you. Thank you Judge de Jager. And what did you tell her?
MR NTHANDI: I told her, as a person who asked me questions about the explosion at that Orlando Police Station, I said: "Yes, I'm the one who was responsible for the explosion at the police station" and then she asked me about the number of the dead people or casualties and I told her that I do not know that information and I told her that I just left the bomb, planted the bomb there and left. She asked me if my Commander was aware about the incident. I said yes, because I got the instruction from my Commander. She said that was fine.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Did she know who your Commander was?
MR NTHANDI: Yes, she was aware.
JUDGE DE JAGER: She knew Sizwe well? He in fact visited her daughter. Is that correct?
MR NTHANDI: Yes, he had a child together with Zindzi, Zindzi Mandela and Sizwe.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Coleridge.
MS COLERIDGE: I just want to refer you to page ten of the bundle, where you report, on page 9, you report of the Orlando police incident and then you say
"I do not know whether Mrs Mandela ordered this, but Sizwe told me afterwards that she was very pleased."
Do you see that part? Why didn't you at this stage inform the Amnesty Committee that you had yourself spoken to Mrs Mandela regarding the Orlando Police Station incident?
MR NTHANDI: I think when I was talking to Mrs Groenewald I told her about this information because she was the one who was transcribing, who was writing this information as I was talking.
MS COLERIDGE: So are you saying that this is incorrect in your amnesty, in your submissions to the Amnesty Committee?
MR NTHANDI: What is it that is incorrect? The fact that it is omitted from this statement?
MS COLERIDGE: And that it seems that you're creating the impression that you didn't yourself liaise with Mrs Mandela, that Sizwe was actually the person in contact with Mrs Mandela and that's the impression that was created in your amnesty application.
MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me Ms Coleridge, is he not saying he only talked to Mrs Mandela after the incident? Now in so far as the order was concerned, at that stage he didn't know, he only heard from Sizwe that Mrs Mandela was aware of this?
MS COLERIDGE: It's just the words that
"But Sizwe told me afterwards that she was very pleased"
and I was just confused as to whether the applicant meant after the incident, afterwards that she was very pleased, so it was just besides that of the order, because he says:
"I do not know whether Mrs Mandela ordered this, but Sizwe told me afterwards that she was very pleased"
and that was all. That was just the impression ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: But I think that it's clear that he, you know it's not contained that he spoke to her, in the statement he said that he told Ms Groenewald, who was taking the statement, that he did in fact ...
MS COLERIDGE: Correct, Chairperson, thank you. And then I want to get to the Sgt Morgets incident. You said that Sizwe told you that Sgt Morgets was a sell-out and he was harassing comrades. Do you know what that meant, what Sgt Morgets was involved in? Do you know?
MR NTHANDI: No, I didn't know the activities he was involved in.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you accept what Mr Sizwe told you?
MR NTHANDI: Yes, I accepted that.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And what was your position? Could you disobey an order given by Mr Sizwe?
MR NTHANDI: I was once told during the crash-course, something got into my mind and stuck there, that if the instruction is issued, you just have to do per instruction and ask questions after.
MS COLERIDGE: The people involved with you in this Sgt Morgets' operation, you said it was - can you just give me those names again, I just want to get all the people's names involved, because you mentioned some new names. You mentioned Goodman, but you didn't mention Goodman in your application.
CHAIRPERSON: I think he said that the four of them went, that was himself, Goodman who was taken along at the last moment, Norman, who was the driver of the vehicle and Sizwe.
MS COLERIDGE: And Matopa, who was Matopa?
MR NTHANDI: He was the driver.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that Norman? Same person?
MR NTHANDI: Yes, that is correct.
MS COLERIDGE: Okay. We know and Stonkie as well, he was also with you. Is that correct? Stonkie Mavuso, you mentioned ...
MR NTHANDI: Stanza is a type of a car.
MS COLERIDGE: No, I'm talking about Stonkie Mavuso.
MS NTHANDI: Stonkie.
MS COLERIDGE: Yes, he was also with you?
MR NTHANDI: That is Goodman.
MS COLERIDGE: Okay. And we know that Norman is Philemon Manziwe, is that correct, that's his real name?
MR NTHANDI: Yes.
MS COLERIDGE: You said that you would meet regularly at White City, when would these meetings take place? Would it be once a month, every week, can you just enlighten us about those meetings?
MR NTHANDI: That would depend on the situation, it would be once a week or twice a week or after a week.
MS COLERIDGE: And who would be the Chairperson of the meeting?
MR NTHANDI: There is something that I do not understand now. If we meet, it's not like a hall full of people. We can even meet, two people, two of us would meet.
MS COLERIDGE: But at your meetings, who was the head of the meeting? Who would control the meeting? Was it your Commander? Was it Sizwe? Somebody else?
JUDGE DE JAGER: As I understand his evidence it wasn't really a meeting. They met there and discussed matters between one or two or maybe three of them, but it wasn't a meeting in the sense of somebody being in control, I don't know whether I understand it correctly.
MS COLERIDGE: I'm not sure that's why I also want the applicant just to elaborate as to those meetings.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Nthandi, what is White City? Is it an area or is it a building, a place? What is White City?
MR NTHANDI: White City is a township.
CHAIRPERSON: And then did you always used to go to the same place, or did you used to meet at different places within White City?
MR NTHANDI: We would change places.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Coleridge.
MS COLERIDGE: Would you plan operations at these meetings, or would it just be meetings just talking about general things, or what?
MR NTHANDI: Sizwe was so committed in politics, to such an extent that, at the time in fact I was doing standard ten, during our meetings we would take papers or newspapers and discuss politics in general. He wanted to make sure that I was up to date as far as politics is concerned and as a person who was in the underground structures and I'm the one who was supposed to get information of what was happening because he was wanted, therefore I was the one who had freedom to walk around and get more information.
MS COLERIDGE: And who would all attend these discussions and so forth? Can you name the persons that were regulars at these meetings?
MR NTHANDI: Different people would attend. Sometimes I would find him with somebody else. As I'm saying, I wouldn't question the identity of a person that I find there, we would start chatting and discussion a particular subject and I would leave because I wouldn't spend more time there. We would meet to discuss specific things and I would go back to Orlando. He was not a person who would be with me twenty-four hours a day.
MS COLERIDGE: So basically you're saying you used to meet once or twice a week, different people used to come to these meetings, you discussed politics etc and you can't remember anybody that used to attend these meetings. I find that very strange. You met so often. Are you saying that at every meeting there was just a different group of people there?
MR NTHANDI: Yes, that is correct.
MS COLERIDGE: And then I just want to check with you, on page ten you also mention
"Ninja Mostofile and I went to check that there was no AK47's left at Sizwe's place."
Who is Ninja and Mostofile? Can you give us their real names? It's the last paragraph on page ten, line three.
JUDGE DE JAGER: What's the driver, Dalinks, wouldn't that be a name too?
MS COLERIDGE: Yes, I think it is, but I thought it was Dalinks, that that was, I'm not sure, Chairperson, but we can check with him.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was Ninja who you mention in your statement, Mr Nthandi?
MR NTHANDI: Ninja was one of the young men who was staying with Mrs Mandela in her premises in Diepkloof extension. I wonder if you want me to tell you what happened when we took this car one night?
CHAIRPERSON: No, we just need to concern ourselves with the incidents. Mostofile, who was he?
MR NTHANDI: Mostofile was a resident in White City.
CHAIRPERSON: And Dalinks?
MR NTHANDI: Dalinks was Mrs Mandela's driver.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Coleridge.
MS COLERIDGE: On that very same page, you stated, that's the last paragraph,
"Mrs Mandela warned me that they had been arrested and there might mean a possibility that I could also be wanted."
Can you just explain that conversation to us and when that took place exactly?
MR NTHANDI: It is when Sizwe and the others were arrested, I was not present there, I was at my place in Orlando East. The person who got information first after they were arrested was Mrs Mandela. She made sure that she would get the chance to talk to me and warn me that Sizwe and the others were arrested. It was possible that they would come and identify me or point me out and I made this young man tell me that Mrs Mandela was looking for me, driving in a kombi and I got a shock because she wouldn't come to my township and I was very surprised when I got that message and I was told that she was driving with Ninja Dalinks in a microbus and Mostofile was not there. I went to a certain house because I couldn't go there during the day. I used to go there late in the evening. When I was still in this house, apparently Mrs Mandela met with somebody else who told her that I was in that particular house, then she sent Ninja to come and fetch me inside the house and then I went to the car to talk to her. She told me that Sizwe and the others were arrested. In the bus it was myself, Ninja Dalinks and Mrs Mandela. We left for Diepkloof Extension, we got into the house, I was told at that time that Sizwe was arrested. When we got into her house, we went to the back rooms and then later on she called me as she was in the big house and then she told me that we were to leave to go to White City where Sizwe and the others were and I heard that Sizwe put his AK47 behind the stove. We left for the White City. It was myself, Dalinks and Mostofile. We went to White City and we parked the car at a certain corner. We alighted from the vehicle, myself and Ninja. We first looked at the house and we later got in and there was chaos in the house, everything was just broken and then we checked behind the stove, but there was nothing and we left the house.
MS COLERIDGE: So did Mrs Mandela know as to why Sizwe and the others were arrested? Did she know about the attack on Sgt Morgets' home and that you were also involved in that incident? MR NTHANDI: I never discussed that with her, I cannot say for sure whether she knew or not because I never discussed that with her.
MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you have any re-examination Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-exam, thanks Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?
MR SIBANYONI: Just some few clarifications, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Nthandi, you attended a crash-course. Were you trained being six altogether, or were you individually trained?
MR NTHANDI: We were trained as a group. Someone would demonstrate in front of us, but most of the times it was theory, somebody would demonstrate in front of us.
MR SIBANYONI: Did your unit, your MK unit have a specific name?
MR NTHANDI: No.
MR SIBANYONI: And I didn't understand you properly, what did your duties entail as a person who is second in command, that is relating to the unit, what did you exactly do as compared to the other members of the unit?
MR NTHANDI: One of my duties, I would go and assist in the guard work, or guard the house during the night and make sure that people responsible for that, were doing their job very well and see if they were not doing anything wrong in the premises and I also had to collect information from the township for him. I would listen and get information on his behalf.
MR SIBANYONI: Isn't it so that maybe working in the garden was just a cover-up for any person to think that maybe you're just a person who's working with the garden and the reason for that was that you should be close to Mama?
MR NTHANDI: Are you talking about me working in the garden?
MR SIBANYONI: Didn't you say so?
MR NTHANDI: No, I didn't say that. I did not say that.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Wasn't he say that he was working as a guard?
MR NTHANDI: That is indeed so, Chairperson, he said he was working as a guard. It may have been interpreted as gardening, but that's what he meant, as a guard.
MR SIBANYONI: Okay, thank you. And lastly, your unit, Sizwe Sithole was the Commander, was there any person who was the political officer or you never had such a person who was playing that role?
INTERPRETER: Can the question please be repeated?
MR SIBANYONI: We understand that Sizwe Sithole was a Commander of the unit. Normally in some unit there would be a person whose duties would be a political Commissar. Was there any such person in the unit?
MR NTHANDI: No. I know no such person. In my mind I thought that there were other people that he would meet with, that's what I was thinking, that perhaps as a Commander, as our Commander, there were also other people, but it was very important for us to keep our identity a secret. That is what was on my mind at the time. I was not very close to him. We would meet and after that I would leave.
MR SIBANYONI: So while being a Commander, Sizwe was also teaching you politics?
MR NTHANDI: Yes.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you. No further questions, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Judge de Jager, any questions that you'd like to put?
JUDGE DE JAGER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nthandi, just very briefly, the hand grenade that was thrown at Mr Morgets house, do you know whereabouts it landed? Did it hit the house or land in the back yard?
MR NTHANDI: The hand grenade just exploded and I saw dust and that is when we jumped but there was no flame, it was just a thick dust that was in the air.
CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know whether it hit the house, or whether it landed in the garden or the yard? Did you notice any damage to the house that might have been caused by the hand grenade?
MR NTHANDI: It was during the night. We did not get inside to check, we were just on the other side at the front of the house and even the following day, I never set my foot on those premises.
CHAIRPERSON: And you say you saw Sgt Morgets in the house while you were firing, is that correct? Did you see him through the window?
MR NTHANDI: No, I did not see him and I cannot even identify him.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see anybody in the house, whether there was anybody in the house?
MR NTHANDI: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you told before the operation whether Sgt Morgets had a family who may be there on the premises or not?
MR NTHANDI: Sizwe told me that the sergeant was a divorcee.
CHAIRPERSON: And do you know - did you learn at all at any stage whether anybody was injured in the attack, Sgt Morgets, did he get injured at all, do you know or not?
MR NTHANDI: I heard that afterwards. Goodman and the others were arrested and after that I met them. They told me when we met at Maputo that there was a mother and child in the house.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear whether any of them were injured, or anybody at all, in the attack?
MR NTHANDI: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the Panel?
MR KOOPEDI: No other questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry. Did you hear windows being broken and shattered after the explosion?
MR NTHANDI: I just heard an explosion, but I think the windows were broken while I was firing, directing to the windows.
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising out of the last one? Any questions arising?
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
MS COLERIDGE: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nthandi, thank you, that concludes your testimony.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, do you have any other witnesses to call?
MR KOOPEDI: We're calling no other witnesses Chairperson and that will be the application.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Coleridge are there any other witnesses to be called?
MS COLERIDGE: No witnesses are going to be called, thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi do you have any submissions you'd like to make?
MR KOOPEDI: A very brief one, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, Honourable
Committee Members, it's my submission that this is a straight-forward amnesty application. The applicant applies for amnesty for two incidents, being the planting of two limpet mines at the Orlando Police Station and also participating in the attack of Sgt Morgets' house in Orlando West, Soweto.
Chairperson, this applicant was never arrested for these incidents. My submission is that he was under no pressure to bring forward this application and it is my further submission that he has at all times acted, or at all relevant times acted under the orders of his Commander, the late Sizwe.
Now I finally wish to submit that this applicant has told you the whole truth with regards to all the relevant facts. Both actions had a clear political motive and that there was no personal gain on his part. I therefore ask this Honourable Committee to grant amnesty to this applicant.
Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Koopedi do you know whether the other people applied for amnesty, the other involved people? Sizwe is deceased, but what about Goodman?
MR KOOPEDI: It appears these people did not apply for amnesty. We tried to find out but we couldn't trace any application to this one.
MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, ...of assistance. Stonkie Mavuso was here yesterday, as well as Philemon, also of the implicated parties and we did double check as well that they did not apply for amnesty.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Coleridge. Ms Coleridge, do you have any submissions you would like to make?
MS COLERIDGE: No submissions. I concur with my colleague, Chairperson.
NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS COLERIDGE
MS COLERIDGE: I just want to thank the applicant for being so brave as to come forward with all the facts in the case and assisting the Commission in our mandate in creating a completer picture of the past, Chairperson. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nthandi, that brings a conclusion to this hearing. All that remains is for us to make our decision which we will reserve because we'll hand it down in written form, which we hope will be as soon as possible in the near future. Mr Koopedi, thank you for your assistance. Ms Coleridge, thank you for your assistance in this matter.
That then brings this hearing to an end. We've got others to proceed with today, but I see it's five to eleven, so this would be a convenient time to take the short tea adjournment, when we'll proceed. Which matter - you don't know which matter we're going to proceed with afterwards? I'll leave that in your hands.
MR KOOPEDI: I believe Chairperson, we'll be proceeding with the matter of Rapholo after the tea break.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. We'll take the adjournment now, the short tea adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll now start ...(intervention)
MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, I'm sorry to do this to the Committee, but Mr Rapholo and Mr Koopedi are still consulting and they're not ready to proceed yet.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Okay.
MS COLERIDGE: There was just some misunderstanding.
CHAIRPERSON: We were told to come in.
MR KOOPEDI: My apologies Chairperson, I wasn't aware you were coming in.
CHAIRPERSON: No sorry, we were told that it was ready to start.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Could I just ask, Mr Koopedi, did he receive indemnity?
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, he did.
JUDGE DE JAGER: For all the acts he's applying for now, or not for all of them?
MR KOOPEDI: ...(indistinct - mike not on)
JUDGE DE JAGER: And yes, something else you could consider is, amnesty for whatever and wherever I may be implicated, that's the one we had trouble with before.
MR KOOPEDI: ...(indistinct - mike not on)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll adjourn again and start as soon as you're ready.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
