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Type AMNESTY HEARING
Starting Date 08 December 1998
Location PALM RIDGE
Names JEREMIA MBONGENI MABUZA
Case Number AM 7633/97
This is a continuation of the hearings of the Amnesty Committee in respect of the amnesty applications of members of various Self Defence Units in the former East Rand area. The panel is constituted as placed on record earlier. Adv Steenkamp still appears as the Leader of Evidence, and the first matter for today is that of Jeremia Mbongeni Mabuza, reference number AM7633/97.
We will just make sure whether we are actually coming through on the system. We haven't heard anything either. The Technician just wants to look at what is the possible cause or the difficulty. Is it on, okay? Mr Mabuza, hopefully you can hear us now? Is that okay.
Firstly Mr Chairman, the application made by the applicant, I am instructed was signed and completed at 23h00 on the 10th of May last year, just before the deadline, and that is why the actual offences for which amnesty is sought, is not properly dealt with.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Shein, we know that many of these applications have been completed under very adverse circumstances and in a great rush and hurry and so on. We don't have any difficulty if the applicant, under oath, confirms his application.
We certainly don't have any difficulty in condoning whatever formal defects there might be in this kind of regard. One other thing that we would also require, seeing that we are busy curing the application form, is for your client to possibly give us his identity number, that is important for our purposes.
The applicant was at all times a member of the ANC, living in Khatlehong. I submit that the war situation and the problems with the IFP, are known and I wonder if I could have an indication whether the Committee would like to hear the applicant on that, on the political motivation for this?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you can assume that this panel, having been sitting for the last three weeks, hearing applications from either members of the Self Defence Units in especially Thokoza, but also relating to Khatlehong, as well as various other applicants who were enjoying a leadership position in this area, as well as some witnesses who had shed light on the general situation, and particularly the conflict in this particular area, involving members or supporters of the African National Congress and the Inkatha Freedom Party, has been dealt with quite thoroughly.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shein, I am sorry to interrupt you. Just for our purposes, perhaps you can just lead him initially on his membership and his participation in either political organisations or Self Defence Units and so on, and then I think you can start dealing with those incidents, so that we have it all on record.
MR MABUZA: Yes, I can tell you. The people who were giving orders was the community and comrade Joe Sangweni, though sometimes he never issued orders, I had to use my initiative when I see that the situation needs me to do something, and sometimes he wouldn't be next to me. He wouldn't be next to me all the times.
ADV GCABASHE: And were the SDU's in Khatlehong divided into sections or how exactly did those structures work in Khatlehong? We have heard a lot about Thokoza, just tell us a little bit about the Khatlehong structure and how you fitted in, which one you would have fitted into?
MR MABUZA: Yes, I was at school, just before lunch time, as we are still busy at school, we were hearing gunshots outside and we were quite uncomfortable and we couldn't go on. We just decided to go home.
On my way home, I was seeing hitsquad and the people were being shot at, but fortunately I managed to get home unharmed, but just before I could get home, I saw a house that was on fire. It was in front of a secondary school called Khatlehong Secondary School. Next to that house, there was a dead body.
I went into the house and I put my books there and I took my pistol and I went out. Just in front of my house, next to the corner, there was a group of people that were known to me. I went to them and I enquired about what was happening in the community. They told me that the fight between the ANC and IFP had started.
MR MABUZA: There were IFP members that were residing there, we used to see them going to the rallies, IFP rallies and meetings. Those were the same people who nearly killed me. Their names were Oci and Bazuka. That was before we could have firearms as a community.
When I went out to the group of people, some women followed me and though the community was very angry, they did no harm to women. I know that my community is not composed of cowards, they don't kill women.
We were in the Executive, ANC Executive in Zone 4 and my role was on publicity. In front of the particular house, there was a ...(indistinct), so the argument started when we wanted to place our posters there. That is where they wanted to kill me.
ADV GCABASHE: Excuse me Mr Shein, I have a bit of a difficulty in the way you are leading him. He's got all the facts, he has given them to you, but we would like to hear the facts from him. If you can just turn the questions around.
MR MABUZA: Since I was born, I never saw Mr Zwane, but the only people that we used to see there, were IFP members. But we used to hear that that was Mr Zwane's house, but Mr Zwane was never known to me.
ADV SANDI: Yes, but I thought you told us that when you went there, the intention was to kill the two gentlemen that you have mentioned, Bazuka and Oci and when you didn't find them, you just burnt the house. Why did you burn this house?
ADV SANDI: Did you go there as a big group? You say whilst you were talking to the women who were inside the house, you saw that outside there were members of the community who were angry. Were these people part of your group when you proceeded to this house?
ADV GCABASHE: Where did you get that from, I will tell you the context I am asking this in. We have heard about community firearms, we have heard about personal firearms. Just tell me which category yours would have fallen into.
If, we during patrolling, if we would find anyone with an unlawful firearm, it should be confiscated. Then we would take that firearm and help the community, to protect the community as the police were failing to do so.
MR MABUZA: On the following day, in the morning, as the fight was still going on, we couldn't sleep in the night, we were safeguarding the community and we were ready for the fight and we were tired of running away to the churches, to the schools and to the hospitals, owning our own houses.
We just told ourselves that we were going to fight, we were going to fight back. At about six or seven o'clock in the morning, the following day, as the previous day we did not get a chance to set their shacks alight, even the group, I was there with the same group that I was with the previous day. We went to the shacks and we broke the doors and we checked, we searched the shacks, but there was no one inside, and we set the shacks alight.
The whole six or seven of them. I cannot remember how many were those shacks, because we were not working as permanent soldiers, and we were not keeping record of anything that was happening. We were not writing down anything, that is why I can't even remember the date, because those were things that would happen randomly.
MR MABUZA: When I was in the house, in my house in the kitchen, I was preparing a meal for myself, I heard my sister talking to my mother. I heard my sister talking to my mother about Bazuka, saying that since Bazuka's house was set alight, he ran to Ngema Section and he became a tenant there in my sister's house and he was given a shack temporarily, because that shack was empty.
I went to my sister and asked her what Bazuka are you talking about, are you talking about the same Bazuka? She said yes. I took my comrade, I went to my sister's house at Ngema Section. I think the number was 156 Ngema Section.
That is why I said from the beginning that I used to get my orders, some of the orders from the community and comrade Joe Sangweni. Sometimes he wouldn't, actually he wouldn't issue an order without getting a direction from the community because the community were the people who were responsible for buying the ammunition and the firearms and the community would assist us in a lot of things that we needed.
MR MABUZA: When we arrived there, we surrounded the house in all directions. We saw Mr Sibiya standing outside and Mr Sibiya knew me very well, and he asked me what was the problem. I told him that we were looking for Bazuka. I wanted to know where Bazuka was.
He told me that Bazuka was at work, and I asked where Bazuka's bedroom was, and he told me that he is staying in one of the shacks that was outside, that belonged to Mr Sibiya, but the belongings inside was Bazuka's belongings.
MR MABUZA: We went in as usual, we covered all angles. I went straight to the house, when I got in there, when I tried to handle, to touch the door handle, the door opened easily because it was not locked.
Even in the bedrooms, there was a wardrobe, there was only a mattress, it was clear that no one was sleeping there. I opened the wardrobe, the wardrobe was empty. I went to the dining room, there was no TV, there was just nothing, there was no entertainment.
We went to the outside rooms. We opened the back rooms, even the wardrobes were empty. There was a big old bed and I opened and I looked underneath. I saw a box under the bed. I opened the box, I wanted to see what was inside. I saw a T-shirt with an IFP logo.
Just before I could finish this, they did not want to understand anything thereafter. They stoned the house. The petrol bombs were thrown into the house and the back rooms. That is how the house was burnt down.
After a few days, maybe after a week, a meeting was held at Tanzania Section in Khatlehong. These houses that were burnt down, were in the agenda. They said there were people who were hiding in those burnt down houses and mugging people.
We did not waste time. After the meeting, we had to get some hammers and some powerful objects to demolish those houses that were in Hlongwani Section, including the other houses that I was not present when they were burnt down.
MR SHEIN: The next incident that we will deal with, is the incident on the 17th of April 1994, at Mshayazafe hostel. Do you recall what happened there, this is regarding shooting with the police and members of the IFP and there was also an incident involving a member of the National Peacekeeping Force, do you remember that, will you please relate that to the Committee?
MR MABUZA: On that particular day, at the time we had our own walkie talkies, we got a message through this two way radio, all the units were called, all the units from Khatlehong were called to go and assist in Thokoza because the situation was bad there.
When we were still at Ncala Section, Ncala Section is actually facing Thokoza, I wonder if I can get something and make a diagram so that you can understand, because I think among the panellists, some of you don't know ...(indistinct).
ADV GCABASHE: No, we actually have been on an inspection in loco, we have been to the area, we've got a big map in the back. If you could remember the new name for Ncala, that would help us, because we are always trying to match the old and the new names, as you have done with your Section for us.
MR MABUZA: Okay, I will try and explain. All the units from Khatlehong were out, we were on our home to Mshayazafe hostel. When you move from Khatlehong to Thokoza, you would see if that was Inkatha terrain, because the power stations were painted. If you are working in an ANC terrain, you would see the colours on the power stations.
CHAIRPERSON: So it was exactly like the colours appear on the IFP flag, which as I have said, to the best of my recollection is fairly close to the black, green and gold of the ANC? I seem to recall that it was a cause of some confusion amongst some people.
MR MABUZA: Yes, they were using those colours. But no one who is staying in Khatlehong, who doesn't know the ANC colour or IFP colour. You were forced to know it during those days because the situation was very bad.
On that particular day we met at Ncala Section and Mavimbela Section. Those are the Sections that are facing Thokoza. That is where you get a road that is actually demarcating Thokoza from Khatlehong.
MR MABUZA: On that particular day we were supposed to meet there, because we couldn't just go to Thokoza, jump to Thokoza that is next to Penduga Section. Penduga is in Thokoza and we had to fight, we had to confront this people from Schoeman Road, and we would push them backwards until we get straight to the hostel.
MR MABUZA: Just before you get to the hostel, you have to pass a few streets. The street that I have mentioned. Between Schoeman Road, the Schoeman Road was the boundary between the ANC and the IFP, we had to fight the people who were nearer to the boundary.
If they ran to another street, the following street, we had to occupy that area also and try to fight them, until they leave, they run away from that street. That is when the 20 houses were set alight, were burnt down. That was on that particular day.
ADV GCABASHE: Can you just clarify this for me? So you confronted the IFP on Schoeman Street and you pushed them back and as you pushed them back, you burnt the houses which you came across, which were their houses, and you kept pushing them back towards the hostel, is that what you are saying?
MR MABUZA: Yes, that is correct. That is where we started burning their houses, we started with the first row. The other thing that I want to explain is this, where I used to stay is a bit far from the hostel. The people who were staying in the houses that were next to the hostel, just opposite the hostel, they ran away, they left their houses and went to a place where I was staying, because at least we were not yet hound.
After having pushed these people, we were now right in the middle of Thokoza, their stronghold. Whilst we were there, we heard gunshots coming from the direction of the hostel, because we were now very much nearer, approaching the hostel.
They were exchanging gunshots, or should I say shooting at the National Peacekeeping Forces, and the National Peacekeeping Force, was seemingly running out of steam as it were. We heard on television that there were members of MK and APLA within the Peace Keeping Force, we did not shoot at that group, we assisted them to attack the people who were shooting us from the houses and the neighbouring hostel.
We were now shooting alongside the National Peacekeeping Force, whom we had won their trust, or the trust of whom we had already won, and we proceeded shooting at the people from the hostel. I happened to run out of ammunition for my AK.
After that, I was standing in front of another Peacekeeping Force soldier, pointing to him where to shoot. This soldier ended up giving me his firearm, because he was not able to see the people that I was pointing out.
ADV SANDI: That is not very clear to me. Did you bullets, the bullets that were flowing out of your rifle, did they hit, did they injure or kill anyone of the members of the IFP or the Stability Unit?
MR MABUZA: I am trying to explain exactly that Chairperson. I was shooting, I could not have seen them or I didn't see them clearly, they were shooting. One would not take notice of everything that was happening every minute.
MR MABUZA: I used that R4 for quite a while, and it so happened on our way to the funeral of one of our comrades, we happened to be surrounded by soldiers, because we were shooting in the air for a gun salute, and after surrounding us, they opened only one exit through which all of us had to go.
I happened to drop this firearm in one of the graves that were unused. Later this incident was flighted on television during the news bulletins, indicating how many firearms were found and they did not specify how many shotguns and different kinds of firearms were found, but yes, they did indicate that firearms were found during an ANC member funeral, or during the funeral of a member of the ANC.
MR MABUZA: That is correct. These people used to raid the township round about three o'clock in the morning, and they would search houses. This is where some of these firearms were found. We took some, if not most of these firearms to the police station when a call was made to that effect.
ADV SANDI: Just to ensure that we follow you correctly, you were in possession and control of two firearms. At first you had an AK47 which you used at the shooting at Mshayazafe hostel and on that day you were given an R4 rifle by one of the members of the National Peacekeeping Force. In relation to you, we are only talking about two rifles, is that so?
When I took receipt of the R4, I already had a firearm that had run out of bullets or ammunition, and I then was given this second one and I explained how I lost possession of this R4 and I also explained how I also lost possession of the AK47 assault rifle.
MR MABUZA: The pistol was taken from Tsyetsi by the police. I used to use the pistol during the day sometimes, and I would use the AK47 assault rifle or the R4 during the night. We did not trust one another as the community, because it so happened sometimes that the information within the community, would be leaked to the enemy.
CHAIRPERSON: So, the pistol and that AK47, was that handed out to different members of the SDU at different times, so it wasn't permanently in your possession, it was used by other members of the SDU as well?
MR MABUZA: I would be patrolling during the night with the AK47 and in the morning, I would hand it over to the ones who would be patrolling through the day. The fighting was continuous in the township.
MR SHEIN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mabuza, we are going back to 1973 and will you please first of all give details of the problems regarding the train which travelled from kwaZihne station through to Pylot station, can you just briefly tell the Committee what happened with that train, and then we will deal with what you did about it.
MR MABUZA: In so far as the train is concerned, you would have Hlongwani Section here and followed by Ndlasi Section. I will try to explain this, I don't know how to put this, but I will give you examples to be able to figure out how far I stay from the station.
The train would be for example travelling on the rail as far as where these people are sitting, and you would have houses here on the stage. I think the station was closed around 1990 and 1992 and each time the train came passed Pylot station, one would be stopped by this Inkatha people and when the train was near Ndlasi or Hlongwani Section, one would be thrown out of the train window by these people.
These people actually knew that Hlongwani and Ndlasi are strongholds of the ANC and the PAC and the ANC are in good relations because the PAC would also assist the ANC. Every boy in the township would come and assist and these were the targets of the IFP.
We would hear stories about people being thrown out of the moving trains. I was within the Executive in Zone 4 and I was therefore well known. We would summon help or call for the ambulance, and we would also ask for the community to assist by taking the people or such a person to hospital.
MR MABUZA: No. That is why I said earlier on that this would be easier illustrated using a map, so that you better understand the Section. Ndlasi and Hlongwani Sections were our Sections, the train would travel passed Ndlasi and Hlongwani Section.
ADV GCABASHE: But which would be the next station, I am just trying to understand who you were shooting at? If you were shooting from an ANC stronghold and the train is passing, who are the people who would be left in that train, because those are the people you would be shooting at?
MR MABUZA: The train would come from Germiston and stop at Khatlehong and Lindela stations, followed by Pylot station and you would have a bridge soon thereafter, a bridge that would lead to Hlongwani Section. These are the houses that are facing the railroad.
CHAIRPERSON: All right, we are relying on your verbal explanation of this. You say that this train came from Germiston and then it would stop at Thokoza station and then, just go slow, where does it go to then?
MR MABUZA: I will try to explain this. The train would come from Germiston, so that the last station in Khatlehong is kwaZihne station, and this station is surrounded by hostels. When the train comes to a halt at kwaZihne station, obviously we would know that these are IFP members, the train was now being used by the IFP members only.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, that is very clear. Just a minute, kwaZihne station would be the last one in Khatlehong, but you were explaining that there was a Thokoza station and then what other stations were there between Thokoza station and kwaZihne station? You had mentioned some names there, just repeat that.
MR MABUZA: Chairperson, I did not say Thokoza station, I am referring to Khatlehong station followed by Lindela station, followed by Pylot station, which is very much nearer where I stayed. Then would come kwaZihne station. That is the last station, which is next to the station, so that all the residents of the township would alight in the earlier stations, not the last one. No one who is a resident of the community, would proceed as far as the last station.
MR SHEIN: You have now given an outline that, and it is quite clear that anyone on the train between Pylot and kwaZihne or anybody getting on the train at kwaZihne, up until Pylot, will only be members of IFP because they were hostel dwellers?
MR MABUZA: First of all, we concluded that the solution to the problem is that we know that from round about three o'clock when these people come back from work or from town, they would each time they came passed Pylot station, they would start their activities.
MR MABUZA: Yes, I was coming to that and I was stopped. We had a meeting one morning. They would wake up to dead bodies in the morning, these people were the ones whose houses were facing the railroad, and we decided to come up with a strategy to stop this from continuing.
We did not come up with a solution to the problem that day and shortly after the meeting, just when we were dispersing, the train appeared. As the train was approaching, the shooting from the train was continuing randomly. Elders of the community were now afraid of going to meetings at schools, because they were afraid of soldiers.
The train continued shooting and others like Aubrey and others who came to assist, members of the ANC from Soweto, they had come from Dube, that is the Dube office in Soweto, they came to assist us, and they had been posted in different areas.
MR MABUZA: The police as well as the soldiers came to harass instead of assisting us. That is the only thing they did. We did not get any help from them, and that is why as a result, the community decided that the SDU's should be assisted by the community itself.
The SDU's were protecting the community and therefore the community would purchase firearms for the SDU's. I was still explaining to you about the meeting, the end of the meeting. The train travelled or moved passed shortly after the meeting, and we exchanged gunfire. The community was angry.
That did not help because there are two rail lines, so that the rail lines, are such that trains can travel from opposite directions at the same time, without interfering with each other, but yes, the throwing of people out of moving trains, continued incessantly.
It so happened one day, I was at Ndlasi Section, the Section in Zone 4. The people at Ndlasi were discussing the same problem and trying to come up with a solution. It was decided that the rail line should be broken.
On taking that resolve, we took a cutting torch from some of the Shangaan speaking or Tsonga speaking group and we went straight to the rail line. We used this cutting torch to break down this rail line, or to cut this rail line.
MR MABUZA: Two coaches were derailed, that is the driver's engine and the ticket examiner's coach. They were completely derailed. The Stability Unit as well as soldiers were on the scene within an hour.
After that, we went to Hlongwani Section and we watched over as the soldiers were now guarding the two coaches that had been derailed. After a while, a steam train came and tried to pull these derailed coaches, and when this steam train moved passed Hlongwani Section, is that there were many police inside the coaches and this really disturbed me, we started wondering why there were not so many police when people were thrown out of the trains.
This steam train managed to pull these trains from the wreckage, except for the two coaches. These coaches stayed there day and night and they were always under guard. The members of the Stability Unit as well as the soldiers were the ones who would normally guard these two coaches.
After a few days, yes, I think it was after a few days, there was this ANC march, a march which was headed for Enyoni Park and when people came back from the march, that is the entire community, the soldiers had been posted to guard, to watch over the two coaches, they left these two coaches and rushed for the people who were coming from the march, people who were shooting in the air.
MR MABUZA: As I have indicated earlier on, trying to show you how the situation was, there were others whom I know, whom I can point out, but others are the ones who had fled from the houses neighbouring the hostel to my Section.
MR MABUZA: We were from the FNB stadium that day, even though I can't remember very well what cemeteries we went to, but the cemeteries are in the ...(indistinct). We travelled in a bus and when we arrived at the cemetery, we alighted, but I did not manage to get to the side of the grave itself.
MR MABUZA: In all the incidents in which I was involved, I would not say there is anybody that I can point to as having died or got injured as a result of my hand. I would not go into the train to see if there was anybody injured, dying, I would not have taken that chance, it was too risky.
MR SHEIN: In so far as possible victims of your victims, we know that there are victims who suffered damage to property, whose houses were burnt, and we also know of this person Bazuka whose clothing and possessions you destroyed by fire, have you got anything now to say to these people?
I am not asking for forgiveness in so far as my duties in my effort to keep my community safe, so that it should not suffer at the hands of apartheid, I am not asking for forgiveness in so far as that is concerned.
MR SHEIN: Mr Mabuza, is it correct that you are now serving the community of Khatlehong and will you tell the Committee in what way you are serving the Khatlehong community, that is what you do for a living today?
MR MABUZA: I would like to explain to the Commission that I am a police as Khatlehong and I was prompted to be a police at Khatlehong, because I realised that the older police or the then police, were not doing as well as they were expected by the community. They did not protect the community.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is one copies of which have been handed to us. Are you asking for us to consider your application in spite of the fact that one of the formalities, namely that the form should be signed by a Commissioner of Oaths, have not been complied with?
CHAIRPERSON: All right, I will repeat it. Are you asking that your application should be considered in spite of the fact that one of the formalities, namely that the form should be signed by a Commissioner of Oaths, have not been complied with?
MR SHEIN: I would also submit with the greatest respect sir, that there has been full compliance with the provisions of Section 29(1)(a), (b) and (c) and that this Committee see fit to grant amnesty to the applicant sir.
ADV SANDI: I notice that you keep on saying whenever you relate all these incidents, you keep on saying we did this, you go on to say we went on to do this and that. Can I assume that whenever you say we, you are referring to yourselves as a mob, were you a mob? Were you operating as a mob during all the time you were doing all these things?
CHAIRPERSON: Just before that happens, it depends on my colleague whether he wants to do that, would it be correct to understand your evidence that all of these things that you did, that you related to us, you have done in your capacity as a member of the Khatlehong Self Defence Unit?
ADV SANDI: Okay, let us go to the day when, the day of the funeral of the late Mr Chris Hani, what happened to the police who were in that vehicle, did they run away, were they shot at, were they attacked?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I also - I am not sure exactly what you were saying, I obviously cannot understand the original language that you are using, but I couldn't say whether the Interpreter was saying that you bent the line or that you burnt the line?
Mr Chairman, the acts for which the applicant or to which this application relates, associated with a political objective committed in the course of the conflicts of the past, and also in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) and (3).
I submit clearly as well that, the applicant has made a complete full disclosure of everything that is relevant. He hasn't left anything out, he has openly given a full account of everything, and lastly although this is not a requirement, he has also clearly shown his remorse to the victims.
I submit that in this circumstances, amnesty should be granted to this applicant. If there is anything else that the Commission would like me to address it on, in specific to any act, I would do so gladly sir.
They had very shortly before that, viewed a house being burnt down and quite clearly political tensions between the applicant and his political enemies, the IFP, were high. What is also further significant is that no injuries were inflicted on the women and children who were occupying that house.
They were looking for a certain person, or for certain people amongst them, Bazuka and Oci. Even though this house was burnt down, and Bazuka wasn't found there, the quest for him didn't end and he has related the incident later at the place where Bazuka was living and where the applicant took Bazuka's possessions and burnt them in the street.
MR SHEIN: It was a house in Ngema Section, the house where applicant's sister resided. The owner of the house, in fact, what was going to happen was applicant and his group would have burnt down the shack occupied by Bazuka, but because the owner of the shack was well known to the applicant, he took the clothing and possessions of Bazuka and burnt them in the street.
Then Mr Chairman, the second incident of either arson or malicious damage to property, would be the incident at 61 Hlongwani Section, Khatlehong. This is clearly I submit an action with every political intention. The intention was to disarm a member of the police and clearly the community for protection, needed weapons.
In that incident, IFP cards and paraphernalia were discovered. The applicant in that incident, I would submit, clearly played a major role in inciting this mob to burn down the house and outside rooms.
The applicant's account of the incident on the 17th of April, very shortly before the election, the third incident sir, the one at Mshayazafe hostel, I submit with respect, the applicant shows a clear biased on the part of the authorities or the authority forces, being the SADF and the SAP or the Internal Stability Unit. It also highlights the tensions at the time, and the alignment or possible alignment that the National Peacekeeping Force could have taken. He was given a weapon, had no authority to possess this weapon, given an R4 by a member of the National Peacekeeping Force and that weapon was used I submit with the greatest respect, by the applicant in protection of the community and in furthering the interests and aims of the particular Self Defence Unit.
I would submit that the applicant cannot give or even be expected in the circumstances, to give very detailed, accurate account of these weapons, because it is quite clear in the period of time, there were numerous weapons involved.
Quite clearly, the motive has been established, it is a political motive. I would go further sir, to ask you to find the significant factor that the Self Defence Unit, the community who were in a war situation, who were being shot at by a train, could do absolutely nothing that any community could expect to do, and that is to enlist the help of the authorities.
Quite clearly sir, the community wee under the impression, I would go further and say, the justified impression that the authorities were in fact their enemies. This train had to be stopped and I submit that from his account, amnesty for either sabotage, malicious damage to property or any other statutory offence, which might exist, relating to Spoornet, amnesty for any of those offences should be granted.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it does appear that although the conduct in a sense, one could say, was directed at a train and at a railway line, it seems to be really in furtherance of that ongoing conflict with the opposing forces, because it seems as if all of this was aimed at somehow eliminating the attacks, that were coming from the opposing forces.
MR SHEIN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I would submit the applicant saw this train, this was the vehicle that brought their attackers and I would submit that the belief was then that this vehicle, the train, should be stopped, clearly shows political motive.
The fact that shots were fired at the train, the fact that people might have, we don't know, might have been injured, lives might have been lost, I would submit that further to these acts, the possible amnesty for attempted murder should also apply here, sir.
MR SHEIN: In respect of all the incidents where shots were fired, sir. Lastly Mr Chairman, I submit that the applicant has also made full disclosure for the incident after the funeral of the late Chris Hani.
MR MABUZA: The possible offences here would be the malicious damage to property and possibly statutory offences relating to the police, the old Police Act, would have applied at the time. I would submit that the throwing of stones at the police vehicle would have amounted to a malicious damage to property as well. The stones probably did cause damage.
ADV STEENKAMP IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairman, maybe just for the record, regarding the victims' position, I have neglected to inform you that houses 256 and 61 was actually visited in order to get further information of the existence of the victims and what has happened to them.