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Amnesty Hearings

Type AMNESTY HEARING

Starting Date 17 May 1999

Location PIETERMARITZBURG

Day 1

Names PRINCE KHONI KHWELA

Case Number AM3680/96

Matter MURDER OF IFP RESIDENTS OF EMPUSHENI

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to begin?

MS MTANGA: Yes we are Chairperson.

MS WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, I appear on behalf of

The survivorsí and the victimsí families. My name is Gillian Williams.

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairperson, I appear on behalf of the Applicant. My name is Zarina Loonat and I am an attorney. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling the Applicant?

PRINCE KHONI KHWELA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS LOONAT: Please tell the Committee what is your full name and your fixed address.

MR KHWELA: My name is Prince Khoni Khwela.

MS LOONAT: What is your present address, your fixed address?

MR KHWELA: I am from Umlazi Township P O Ndobozweni 4105

MS LOONAT: How long have you lived there Mr Khwela?

MR KHWELA: Very short.

CHAIRPERSON: How long was that before the commission of this offence?

MR KHWELA: As from 1991 up until 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS LOONAT: Please tell us, where did you live prior to this?

MR KHWELA: ...(indistinct)

MS LOONAT: And why did you have to move?

Please explain to the Committee why you had to move.

MR KHWELA: The violence which was there.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela, please be more specific. What violence are you talking about and where did it exist?

MR KHWELA: There was violence at Empusheni and people from there came to Efoluweni to spread the violence.

MS LOONAT: Who are these people that you are referring to?

MR KHWELA: There was violence between ANC and IFP.

MS LOONAT: Are you an ANC member Mr Khwela?

MR KHWELA: I was an ANC supporter.

MS LOONAT: So in fact youíre saying that you had to move because the IFP were attacking you and your people? Is that correct?

MR KHWELA: Yes, thatís correct.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela, how old are you now?

MR KHWELA: 29 years.

MS LOONAT: Please tell the Committee, what is your present level of education?

MR KHWELA: I am doing Standard 9 right now in prison.

MS LOONAT: Before you were in prison, your level of education was up to Standard 6, is that correct?

MR KHWELA: Yes, thatís correct.

MS LOONAT: How old were you then?

MR KHWELA: I think I was 19 years.

MS LOONAT: How did you come to join the ranks of the ANC?

MR KHWELA: There was a certain guy at Umlazi who recruited me. His name was Mandla Gwele.

MS LOONAT: Please tell us what he actually told you, how did he actually recruit you?

MR KHWELA: He invited me to a certain meeting which was held at Sidwenga.

MS LOONAT: Can you remember in what year this was?

MR KHWELA: In 1992.

MS LOONAT: At that time, how fully-fledged a member were you of the ANC?

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence says that he is merely a support of the ANC, I donít know whether that means that he was a member of the ANC, perhaps you can clear that up.

MR KHWELA: Yes I was just a supporter, not a full-fledged member.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela please explain to the Committee if you have become a registered member of the ANC and when did that take place?

MR KHWELA: In 1993 I registered for ANC in Sikingwo.

MS LOONAT: Have you brought any proof of your registration as a member?

MR KHWELA: I waited for the card until I was arrested, I couldnít get hold of the card.

MS LOONAT: What is your present political philosophy Mr Khwela? Do you still belong to the ANC?

MR KHWELA: I am still a supporter and a member of ANC.

MS LOONAT: In spite of being in prison for so many years, you still are an ANC supporter?

MR KHWELA: Yes, thatís correct.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela you say that you had to move addresses because the IFP party was attacking the areas in which you lived with your family? Please can you expand on what actually happened when you were attacked by the IFP members.

MR KHWELA: People who were not residents of Mapusheni used to come and shoot at people or residents Empusheni.

MS MTANGA: The speakerís mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: According to my understanding of the interpreters I have been given the name Efoluweni and now I hear that there was another place called Empusheni and he has now mentioned a third name. Is that correct? He previously lived in Efoluweni.

MR KHWELA: These areas are close to each other. Thereís one Empusheni and the other Efoluweni.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Carry on.

MR KHWELA: I can say itís just one area, the only division is the main road.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela what did you do when you were being attacked by the IFP members? Did you fight back or did you hide, what did you do?

MR KHWELA: Firstly I tried to hide. Thatís when a certain guy was shot and I was staying at that guyís place.

MS LOONAT: What area was this?

MR KHWELA: At Efoluweni.

MS LOONAT: So this explains why you moved from Efoluweni to Umlazi, is that correct?

MR KHWELA: What made me move from Efoluweni is another incident, second one, where a certain guy was killed who was also a resident of Efoluweni. His name is Mkhize.

MS LOONAT: Please tell us what happened on that occasion.

MR KHWELA: People from Empusheni came by vehicles, some of them they were walking and there was a meeting and they attacked the people who were at the meeting. Thatís when I also ran away and I left the area. And someone who was a chief, or whom people trusted, left the area as well and went to Isipingo Beach.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just come in here, what sort of a meeting was this, who called the meeting?

MR KHWELA: It was sort of a reconciliation. Mkhize told people to come to this meeting so that they could talk and try to resolve matters or conflicts between themselves.

ADV BOSMAN: But who were these people? Was it ANC and IFP people? Can you just explain that?

MR KHWELA: It was everyone, ANC, IFP and people who were not affiliated with any organisation. It was a meeting for reconciliation or for peace.

MS LOONAT: How do you know that it was IFP members who attacked you at that meeting?

MR KHWELA: At Empusheni the predominant party was IFP, so they were from Empusheni.

MS LOONAT: How many times have you participated in attacks on the IFP in return?

MR KHWELA: Only one.

MS LOONAT: Was this in the company of others or were you alone?

MR KHWELA: I was with others.

MS LOONAT: Why did you attack the IFP? Please explain in your own words.

MR KHWELA: They were the people who used to attack the Efoluweni residents.

MS LOONAT: So you are in fact saying that your attacks were to avenge the death of your friend and your family? Is that correct?

MR KHWELA: Yes, thatís correct.

ADV BOSMAN: They were therefore politically motivated at all times?

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela.

MR KHWELA: Yes.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela, a little bit more on your background. Are your family members, members of the same party as yourself?

MR KHWELA: They are ANC supporters.

MS LOONAT: How did you decide that you wanted to join the ANC party?

CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter how he decided because he has already said that he was a member?

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairman, the point I was trying to make is that he was influenced from a very young age to become an ANC member, it was not just something that he undertook when he was much older and unemployed. It was from the days when he was at school, because of his family background. I think that....

CHAIRPERSON: Members of his family were all ANC people and you want to know whether that influenced him in becoming a member of the ANC. Is that what youíre trying to get?

MS LOONAT: Iíll continue.

Mr Khwela have you ever owned a firearm in your life?

MR KHWELA: No.

MS LOONAT: Do you know how to use a firearm?

MR KHWELA: No.

MS LOONAT: Do you have any previous convictions prior to the present one that youíre serving now?

MR KHWELA: No.

MS LOONAT: So this attack on the IFP is your first offence, is that correct?

MR KHWELA: Yes it was the very first.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela, please tell the Committee Members what happened on the 18th August 1992, the day when a massacre had taken place in which you were involved.

MR KHWELA: On the 18th August we left Umlazi, the three of us. It was myself, Mbhasobhi and Ngcgcina.

CHAIRPERSON: Just stop there please, Iíd like these names to be spelled. Will the interpreter kindly spell the names?

MR KHWELA: Mzw.

CHAIRPERSON: Iíd like the interpreter to interpret these names please, spell them.

MR KHWELA: Myself, second one itís Ngcgcina and the surname is Cele, the second one Mbhasobhi Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes now you can tell us where the three of you went.

MR KHWELA: We went to Sidweni.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR KHWELA: We arrived at a certain house where there were supporters of ANC. It looked like they were waiting for us and they were ready to go and attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that you were going to this house to go and join people in an attack?

MR KHWELA: Yes, I was told so the previous day. Mzwamandla Cele told me.

When we arrived there, we realised that these people were ready to go and attack. Myself, Kolane, Ngcgcina Cele, we went together with the group.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR KHWELA: Kolane, Ngcgcina Cele, and Mbhasobhi they went to Isipingo to fetch a car and they came back. Thatís when people were chosen to go and attack.

CHAIRPERSON: When they went to fetch the car, where were you?

MR KHWELA: I was left in that house, the same house I said there were ANC people.

CHAIRPERSON: So when they arrived with the car, what happened?

MR KHWELA: People who were going to launch the attack, were chosen there. A certain guy by the name of Baba Mashelela Khwela chose the people and there were fifteen.

CHAIRPERSON: Now letís just stop there because whenever you give a name, Iíd like that name to be properly spelt so that we can write it down.

Baba, what were his other names?

MR KHWELA: Mashelela.

CHAIRPERSON: What was his other names?

MR KHWELA: Khwela.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes so what did Baba Mashelela Khwela, what did he decide, or what did he do?

MR KHWELA: He is the one who chose those who were supposed to go and launch the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he choose the people who were going to attack or did he choose and point out the target of your attack?

MR KHWELA: He chose the people who were supposed to go and launch the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR KHWELA: Among the fifteen who were chosen by Baba was Bong Nkosi and Ngcgcina Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR KHWELA: Maseven Khuzwayo.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to carry on, donít take too long.

MR KHWELA: Okay. Myself, I was also one of the fifteen.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the names of the others?

MR KHWELA: There are many which I do not remember because, one of the reasons is that some of them, I met them for the first time there.

CHAIRPERSON: And you do not know their names?

MR KHWELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela, if you do not remember the names of the other occupants, would you be able to identify them if they were shown to you?

MR KHWELA: Yes, I think I can remember them if I can see them.

MS LOONAT: You must remember that you have been in prison for seven years since this attack. You still say you can assist if necessary, is that correct?

MR KHWELA: Yes, thatís correct.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela please tell the Committee Members what happened once the fifteen of you were chosen.

MR KHWELA: We got in the car and we left. We alighted at Chibini, thatís where we alighted the car. We went straight to Empusheni and we started firing guns. I had a gun myself, it was a homemade gun and it only had one bullet.

CHAIRPERSON: You start talking about your gun, what were you firing at or who were you firing at?

MR KHWELA: We started shooting at Chibini and the people who were residents of Chibini were shooting as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this an attack to people in an area, or is this an attack at a particular residence, people who had been identified as the targets beforehand, or was this just random? What is the position, can you tell me?

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairman, according to my understanding my client was very naÔve at the time. He was told to go to this place, Esildeni, where the kombi was and when fifteen of them were chosen, they got into the kombi and were pointed in the direction of Chibini, which is, I believe the kraal of the war lord Mr Khuzwayo.

CHAIRPERSON: Why donít you lead that evidence, why donít you ask him to whose house did they go? Did he know before then that they were going to a particular house? Thatís what I want.

MS LOONAT: Yes, Mr Chairman, I should.

Mr Khwela, when you were chosen, the fifteen of you were chosen, and you got into the kombi, what were your instructions and who gave you those instructions?

MR KHWELA: Baba Mashilela Khwela is the one who gave us the instructions, he told us to go and attack Empusheni.

MS LOONAT: Was Baba Khwela in the kombi as well?

MR KHWELA: No, he wasnít.

MS LOONAT: Who is Baba Khwela?

CHAIRPERSON: Heís mentioned the name already.

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairman, I just wanted to establish that he was an ANC very senior person who gave the instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes perhaps we can get that up but letís clear, you see heís given instructions to go and attack Empusheni. Empusheni is an area. We are concerned with whether now they were going to attack an area or a particular residence, or a particular individual, that is what I want.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela, when you were given the instructions to go and attack, please explain to the Committee Members why ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

MS LOONAT: Why were you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, who were you going to attack?

MR KHWELA: We were told to go and attack Mr A1 Khuzwayo.

MS LOONAT: And who was Mr A1 Khuzwayo to you?

MR KHWELA: He was a Mayor at Empusheni.

MS LOONAT: I take it he was an IFP supporter, is that correct?

MR KHWELA: Yes, thatís correct.

MS LOONAT: Your instructions were to go and attack Mr Khuzwayo himself. Please explain to the Committee, what else were you told, what area was he living in and who was living with him at the time.

MR KHWELA: We were told to go and attack Mr A1 Khuzwayo but we didnít first go and attack his house, we attacked the area as a whole. We started shooting in that area before we could go in Mr A1 Khuzwayoís place.

MS LOONAT: Why were you attacking the area?

MR KHWELA: The people I was with started shooting before we could reach Mr A1ís house.

MS LOONAT: I understand that, but who were you shooting at when you started shooting?

MR KHWELA: People were shot before we could arrive at Mr A1ís house. I ran away before we could reach Mr A1ís house and I went back.

CHAIRPERSON: Stop there please, just stop there.

Your friends started shooting the people in the area. How many of your friends had firearms?

MR KHWELA: All of us, we had firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Who supplied the firearms?

MR KHWELA: When we arrived in that house we found that the people, or the group of people we found there, had guns.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the name of the person that handed out the firearms?

MR KHWELA: When we arrived there the group had already guns in their possession, so when we arrived we were given guns by Mashelela, but the other group which we found there, they had already had guns.

CHAIRPERSON: The gun that you had, was that given to you by the man Mashelela?

MR KHWELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And your companions, the guns they had, the same person, Mashelela?

MR KHWELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And who told you where the house of Mr Khuzwayo was going to be?

MR KHWELA: We knew where Mr A1ís house was.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you personally know as well?

MR KHWELA: Yes, I knew his house.

CHAIRPERSON: After the attack on the people in the area, and before Mr Khuzwayoís house could be attacked, what did you do?

MR KHWELA: I didnít continue, I ran away, I didnít go to Mr A1ís house.

MS LOONAT: What did you actually do, Mr Khwela, at the time?

MR KHWELA: I went back to the place where we came from.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela, the question is, when you were there you had a firearm in your hand, did you use it?

MR KHWELA: Yes I used it. Only once.

MS LOONAT: What did you shoot with it?

MR KHWELA: I shot and I am not sure whether I shot someone or the person I shot at died or not.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just come in here please, Ms Loonat. Mr Khwela, where were the people you were shooting at, were they in the street, where they in a house, were you in this kombi or had you gotten out of the kombi? Can you explain that please?

MR KHWELA: We already alighted the kombi. We were shooting at people who were running away.

ADV BOSMAN: Where were they running from? Were they at a shop? Were they at their house? Were they just walking in the street? Can you explain that please?

MR KHWELA: They were running away from their houses. We started firing, after we alighted the kombi, we started firing guns in the air and the people ran away. Thatís when we started shooting at people.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MS LOONAT: Were you instructed to start shooting at the people as soon as you alighted from the kombi, is that correct?

MR KHWELA: No, we were only told to go and attack Mr A1ís house.

MS LOONAT: So in fact you did not get to Mr A1ís house, but you started shooting people before you got to Mrs A1ís house. Why is that?

MR KHWELA: The people I was with started shooting and then I also shot because I thought everyone was shooting. Thatís how I basically shot.

MS LOONAT: So in fact youíre saying that you werenít fully informed of what was to happen on that day, is that correct?

MR KHWELA: Yes thatís correct.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khuzwayo was an IFP warlord, is that correct?

MR KHWELA: Yes.

MS LOONAT: How exactly did he affect your life that you felt you had to attack him in this manner?

MR KHWELA: The area where I was staying was his most target area.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela, please expand, what do you mean this was his most target area? What did he actually do?

MR KHWELA: It is the area which he used to attack a lot.

MS LOONAT: Please explain to the Committee, how did he attack this area? With guns? How?

MR KHWELA: People would come to the houses armed with guns and they would fire at the residents in my area. Some of them used to come by cars and theyíd just attack the area randomly.

MS LOONAT: How does it implicate Mr Khuzwayo?

MR KHWELA: These were the people who were under him, thatís why we perceived this as people who were sent by him.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela, when you started firing and you shot the first shot with your homemade firearm, what happened thereafter?

MR KHWELA: Yes, I had a homemade gun, thatís the one which I used in this attack.

MS LOONAT: You say you shot at somebody but youíre not sure whether you hurt them. Why is that?

MR KHWELA: I aimed at someone who was a distance from where I was, thatís why Iím saying I donít know whether I actually injured the person, or I killed the person, or if at all I shot at him.

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairman, the point Iím making here was that during sentencing it was brought about that the gun had actually malfunctioned, it did not even work. Thank you.

Mr Khwela, you then panicked and you ran away. Is that correct?

MR KHWELA: Yes, thatís correct.

MS LOONAT: Why did you panic? This was something that you had planned to do, was to attack and kill people that day. Why did you not carry on? Why did you panic?

MR KHWELA: Mr A1 Khuzwayo used to keep people in his house, people who were IFP members and attackers and I was scared, and I got scared, I realised we were few and we canít face the people who were at Mr A1ís house.

MS LOONAT: Is there anything else you want to say about that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps you can clear up where did he go to when he left.

MR KHWELA: I went back to the house where we left earlier.

MS LOONAT: What happened when you got there?

MR KHWELA: I stayed in that house until the next day and I went back home the following day.

ADV BOSMAN: Where was Baba at the time when you got there, do you know?

MR KHWELA: He wasnít there when I arrived in that house, there was no one.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of the day was this attack launched by you and your friends?

MR KHWELA: It was during the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KHWELA: It is difficult for me to remember the time but it was during the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it morning, noon, afternoon, evening?

MR KHWELA: I can only say it was afternoon.

MS LOONAT: What is the distance from the place of the attack, to the place where you ran from the attack?

MR KHWELA: It is quite a distance, if youíre walking, but I can only estimate, I can say if youíre walking it will take you 15 minutes.

ADV SANDI: Mr Khwela, did you give a report to this Baba Khwela, did you give a report to him?

MR KHWELA: He arrived in the morning and he found that the other group had already come back. He didnít stay that long, he just came and then he left. The group which I was with when we launched the attack, when they came back, I was already ready to go home.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but was any report given to Baba about what had happened? He had given instruction to go and carry out an attack.

MR KHWELA: I told him how I went. When he arrived I told him about the attack, as to what happened.

ADV SANDI: What did he say?

MR KHWELA: He asked me about the other group and I told him that I left them behind and they were going to Mr A1ís house when I left them, this is what I told him.

MS LOONAT: What was his reaction to that?

MR KHWELA: He said he will wait for the others to come and give him the full report.

MS LOONAT: Was he not annoyed that you had run away from the attack?

MR KHWELA: No, he wasnít.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when the others arrived, or returned?

MR KHWELA: Yes, when they arrived I was still there.

CHAIRPERSON: When they made their report to Baba, were you present when they made their report to Baba?

MR KHWELA: Yes, I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you hear for the first time that people were killed?

MR KHWELA: The group told us.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it mentioned at that stage as to how many people were shot, how many killed or injured?

MR KHWELA: Among our group two people were shot at and they didnít come back.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they die?

MR KHWELA: Yes, they died.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they known to you?

MR KHWELA: I only knew Kolane Ngcgcina Cele. The other one ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the person whose name you gave us earlier, Ngcgcina Cele?

MR KHWELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And who was the other that died?

MR KHWELA: Bong Nkosi Khwela.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you know how many people died as a result of the attack by this group?

MR KHWELA: I came to find out how many people were killed when I was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: The names of all the people that were murdered were given, there were 9 of them, did you know any of them?

MR KHWELA: The names were said in Court but they were names of the people I didnít know.

CHAIRPERSON: There were three people who formed part of the charge of attempted murder and you didnít even know them as well.

MR KHWELA: Yes I didnít know them either.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to Mr A1 Khuzwayo?

MR KHWELA: He is still alive.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you the only person that was arrested in connection with this event?

MR KHWELA: We were arrested, the three of us. It was myself, Mzwamandla Cele and Mbhasobhi Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you three were arrested.

MR KHWELA: Yes. Mzwamandla Cele was released from the Police Station, or maybe even bail or something.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you the only one that was tried?

MR KHWELA: Yes, I was the only one.

CHAIRPERSON: It is strange, isnít is Ms Loonat, that the one whose participation was the minimal, was the one who was tried and convicted and none of the others.

MS LOONAT: Yes, Mr Chairman, I quite agree with you and I find Justice Magid might have also found that and this is why it was extenuation circumstances at the time of sentencing. He really didnít know very much at the time and still claims not to know more than what he was told. It was his first offence of his whole life.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) and whose participation in this entire event was minimal, lands up in Court and is sentenced and the others are not even charged.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Loonat, perhaps you can just inquire from your client how it came about that he was arrested, if he would give some evidence in that regard.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela the Committee is trying to ascertain, there were 15 of you in the kombi on that day, the two people that you knew were arrested and released. You are the only person who was arrested, tried found guilty and sentenced. Please can you explain to us why it is that youíre the only one and how it came about that you were the only one that was arrested for the horrific offence.

ADV BOSMAN: No, he said that three of them were arrested, so what we want to know is when were they arrested, were they all arrested the same time and what led to their arrest.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela, do you understand the question?

MR KHWELA: If you could please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Letís just get this clear.

When were you arrested?

MR KHWELA: Weeks after the incident. It can be a month, Iím not sure, but just weeks, or a month after the incident, I was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you arrested?

MR KHWELA: At Umlazi.

CHAIRPERSON: When was Cele arrested?

MR KHWELA: The fetched him from his work at night.

CHAIRPERSON: When? Before or after your arrest?

MR KHWELA: Myself and Mbhasobhi were arrested first and then Mzwamandla was taken from his work while he was working at night.

CHAIRPERSON: How long after you were arrested?

MR KHWELA: After a day we were arrested. On the same day, on the very same day we were arrested he was also taken from his work.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened to the firearms that everybody had?

MR KHWELA: We left the gun in that house where we met as a group where we were given the guns, thatís where we left them after the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Weíll take a short adjournment and resume in 15 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

PRINCE KHONI KHWELA (s.u.o.)

EXAMINATION BY MS LOONAT: (cont)

Mr Khwela please can you expand the part of when you were actually in the kombi and you started firing randomly at people. Who were you firing at and why?

MR KHWELA: We started firing because we were at the IFP area.

MS LOONAT: Carry on please.

MR KHWELA: Shooting, moving towards the direction of Mr Khuzwayoís place. At that particular point in time, before we even reached the area, I ran away.

MS LOONAT: When you started shooting, what was in your mind, who were you shooting at exactly?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about him personally or his group?

MS LOONAT: Iím talking about him personally, what was actually in his mind at that time?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you shoot?

MR KHWELA: I was firing because I realised that I was supposed to shoot, because I realised that there was somebody in front of me.

MS LOONAT: The question Iím asking is, you started to shoot at IFP members.

CHAIRPERSON: They started to shoot at people living in that area whom they all regarded as IFP, you know. I donít think they had individual target in mind at that time. Anybody who lived in that area was a target, simply because that was an IFP area. Isnít this the picture you get?

MS LOONAT: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thatís the picture I get.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela what do you have to say about how you feel since this attack, in which so many people lost their lives, including your friends?

MR KHWELA: I regret what I have done because whether I did it, because when the people of Efoluweni were attacked, when I realised that they were attacked actually that made me to attack, so I regret what I have done.

MS LOONAT: What in fact you have done is actually attacked IFP members because they used to attack ANC members in all your areas, is that correct?

MR KHWELA: Yes, thatís correct.

MS LOONAT: So this was a revenge attack and the first time that you have ever taken part in such, is that correct?

MR KHWELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long before you joined in this attack, for how many months before that, were these attacks taking place between the two groups, or do you not know?

MR KHWELA: It was for a long time.

MS LOONAT: May I assist the applicant, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khwela, you said that these attacks were taking place from, as far as you can remember, when you were in Standard 6. Is that correct?

MR KHWELA: What was actually happening there at Efoluweni it was long as back in round about 1990, the area was severely attacked by the ZPís and in 1991 it was actually the beginning of Mr Khuzwayoís incident.

MS LOONAT: So you were witnessing these attacks long before you participated a revenge attack yourself? Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Iím waiting for the interpreter.

INTERPRETER: The speakerís mike was not on, Iím trying to find

MR KHWELA: Yes it is the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS LOONAT: When Baba Khwela gave you the instruction, chose you particularly for that one attack that you were involved in, besides that you were and ANC member, how well acquainted are you with him?

MR KHWELA: I know him from the Umbumbulu area where he was a resident. He was the person who was residing there at Umbumbulu in the area of Chibini when I was residing at Emadundube.

MS LOONAT: He has the same surname as yourself, are you related to him?

MR KHWELA: No we are not, itís just the same surname, similar surname.

MS LOONAT: Your relationship with him is a political one only?

MR KHWELA: Yes itís the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know him to be one of the political leaders in your area?

MR KHWELA: Initially I only knew him as a person who was doing Zulu Traditional Ceremonies where they will do the traditional attire, so thatís how I knew him initially.

MS LOONAT: Your first personal encounter with him was when he chose you to go and attack an IFP stronghold?

MR KHWELA: Yes, itís the truth.

MS LOONAT: Is there anything that you would like to tell the Committee members about how you feel about, besides the remorse that you are showing, how you feel about your political ambition? Are you still a member of the ANC and do you still continue to participate in their activities?

CHAIRPERSON: Well if heís in prison, he wonít be able to do very much, can he.

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairman, I was hoping that if he were released, has he changed his political affiliation as a result of being imprisoned as a result.

ADV BOSMAN: Is that very relevant? Are we not concerned with what he did at the time and why he did it?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you asked him earlier, does he still believe in the ANC and I think he said yes.

Thatís as far as you can take it, isnít it?

MS LOONAT: Yes, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOONAT

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Williams are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MS WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Bearing in mind that he wasnít involved in the attack of all the people who lost their lives and so on and about which he seems to have had no knowledge, youíll bear that in mind when you question him.

MS WILLIAMS: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, Iíd like just to address the Committee. The family of the victims and the survivors are here today. I have asked Mr Khuzwayo who was the person against whom the attack was to be made, he is here today. He is the Mayor of that area

and he would like to address the Committee. He will be able to give insight as to the events as they took place on the 18th of August 1992 and heíll be able to advise the Committee as to the general attitude of the family and his particular attitude towards the Amnesty Applicantís application today.

I must advise the Committee that Mr Khuzwayoís evidence will, to some degree, be hearsay in that when the attack did starts, he did actually flee the area but he can advise you as to the carnage which took place as a result of the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, weíll hear Mr Khuzwayo when the time comes, but are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MS WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson just quickly.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WILLIAMS: Mr Khwela you said that you arrived at the home of Baba. Now who was the person who asked you to come to Babaís house before?

MR KHWELA: Mzwamandla Cele.

MS WILLIAMS: Mr Khwela, where did you meet this gentleman and how did you know him? Was he a member of the ANC? Did you not question him as to why you had to report at Babaís house the following day? Did you just go without asking any questions?

MR KHWELA: He said there will be a meeting in the area of Esudwini.

MS WILLIAMS: Did he advise you as to the nature of that meeting?

MR KHWELA: Well, he didnít explain in full.

MS WILLIAMS: You didnít feel it necessary to ask him why you were being called to a meeting? Did you know it was going to be an ANC meeting?

MR KHWELA: Yes, I didnít ask him.

MS WILLIAMS: When you arrived at the home of Baba what exactly were the instructions that you were given?

MR KHWELA: When I arrived there the conversation was about the attack at Khuzwayoís place.

MS WILLIAMS: Were any reasons given as to why you had to particularly attack that house and was it in respect of any other attack that had occurred prior to this in your area?

MR KHWELA: What I discovered is that it was the person who had surely been bothering a lot, who had been troublesome for a long time now, Mashelela.

MS WILLIAMS: Sorry, Iím confused. Who was the troublesome person?

MR KHWELA: Mr Khuzwayo. As a result he actually had to be attacked on that day.

MS WILLIAMS: Was it in response to an attack that had occurred previously?

CHAIRPERSON: This must have been attacks and counter attacks carried out over a period of time.

MS WILLIAMS: The allegation has been made that Mr Khuzwayo was a warlord in the area. Could Mr Khwela respond to that please? Did he know he was a warlord? Why had he specifically been chosen?

CHAIRPERSON: I thought he said that Khuzwayo was regarded and accepted as a troublesome person, a troublemaker in that area.

MS WILLIAMS: Okay.

So your instruction was to go to Mr Khuzwayoís house and to attack his house? Is that correct?

MR KHWELA: Yes thatís the truth.

MS WILLIAMS: Was any other instruction given to you to shoot at random at any persons who would pose any threat to yourself, whilst you attacked Mr Khuzwayoís house?

MR KHWELA: The instruction was that we are going to A1 Khuzwayo, however, on our arrival we realised that we were on the IFPís stronghold and then that is how we actually started shooting, but the targeted area was actually Khuzwayoís residence or area. Thatís the IFP area.

MS WILLIAMS: Mr Khwela what weapons did you have in your possession? I know you had a homemade gun, what other weapons did you have with you.

MR KHWELA: Is that you in singular or you in plural?

MS WILLIAMS: As a whole. What weapons did the group have as a whole?

Did you have R4ís, AK 47ís, did you have pistols, revolvers? What kind of weapons did you have in your possession?

MR KHWELA: Others had AKís and others also had their homemade guns.

MS WILLIAMS: When you arrived at the place where the incident took place, what was the scene like there? Was it an area where there were homesteads there? Did you anticipate there were going to be people there who might be armed? What was the scene like when you arrived there?

MR KHWELA: It was a residence area.

CHAIRPERSON: Were your friends shooting into peopleís houses, or were they shooting into the air to scare people, or were they shooting at people walking in the street?

MR KHWELA: People were actually running away from their houses when we arrive at that area in Empusheni.

CHAIRPERSON: They were being shot at?

MR KHWELA: Yes.

MS WILLIAMS: Did any of the people who were being shot at have any arms or weapons with them? Did they pose a threat to you?

MR KHWELA: Because it was already the IFPís stronghold, we were actually on our way to Mr Khuzwayoís place.

MS WILLIAMS: But when they attacked the persons, when they arrived there, those people were unarmed, they were residents in the area, most of the people who were attacked were women and children. It was highly unlikely that they would have been armed and would have posed a threat to 15 armed men.

CHAIRPERSON: No I donít think it was suggested that they were attacked because they posed a threat.

These cohorts just opened fire when they found themselves landing in the enemy territory.

MS WILLIAMS: Do you remember him saying that the reason why he fled after the gun didnít work was because he was afraid that he might be attacked by the people in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: No he felt that there were people who were going to be armed when they got Mr Khuzwayoís house. There were bound to be people that were armed with guns there and he didnít want to be involved in that, that is why he fled.

MS WILLIAMS: Mr Khwela, I donít know if you know this, but one of the victims was a 5 year old girl. Do you know that?

MR KHWELA: No.

MS WILLIAMS: That, as far as I am instructed, the grandmother and three children were in a home which was then attacked by members of the gang which you associated yourself with whereby they killed the 5 year old daughter and seriously injured 2 of the young boys in that kraal. Those 2 boys are here today, both of them sustained serious injuries to their arms and are unable to use their arms as proficiently as they should be able to. Do you have anything to say to that family?

MR KHWELA: To the family I would actually like to apologise because what happened, it was directed to Mr Khuzwayo who was the troublesome person.

MS WILLIAMS: If your instruction was to attack Mr Khuzwayoís stronghold, surely you would have been attacking the people who were at that particular kraal not the people on the way there?

MR KHWELA: Because we were at the IFP area, that is actually why the people started shooting, that is how the shooting started, because as the person who used to attack, he would actually shoot randomly.

MS WILLIAMS: Were any shots fired at you by the residents of that area? Do you remember?

MR KHWELA: That actually happened when it was at Khuzwayoís place.

MS WILLIAMS: Approximately how far is Mr Khuzwayoís house from the road? How far would you say?

CHAIRPERSON: From where he ran away?

MS WILLIAMS: Did you actually get to Mr Khuzwayoís house? You say you knew where it was. Was it some distance?

MR KHWELA: I didnít reach the area. However, it was just across.

MS WILLIAMS: So could you see it from the road?

MR KHWELA: Yes I could see.

MS WILLIAMS: Now Mr Khwela you have told the Commission that you know of none others who were involved in the incident apart from the names which you had named, is that correct?

MR KHWELA: Yes, thatís correct.

MS WILLIAMS: I put it to you that you were a supporter of the ANC, you lived in a specific area, when you went to that meeting, you would have been to countless meetings before that, you would have been able to identify those people on sight, and now you are telling the Committee today that you cannot identify any of the other 15, or approximately 9 people, whose names are not here today, you cannot tell the Commission those names. You lived in a specific area, when you went to that meeting, you would have been to countless meetings before that, you would have been able to identify those people on sight, and now you are telling the Committee today that you cannot identify any of the other 15, or approximately 9 people whose names are not here today, you cannot tell the Commission those names?

MR KHWELA: It was for the first time that I attended the meeting there. It was for the first time. The meeting that I would attend, it was the meeting at Efoluweni.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS WILLIAMS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: I have one question, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khwela, the person you have admitted to having shot at, did you actually shoot the person, or did you injure the person?

MR KHWELA: The person didnít even fall down.

MS MTANGA: My question is, did you actually shoot at him and injure him?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether the shot you fired struck the person you were aiming at, or whether it didnít strike

him, do you even know that?

MR KHWELA: I wouldnít be sure whether the person was, I actually shot somebody and there was nobody who fell or whether there was a person who was shot at all. Iím not sure.

MS MTANGA: Are you able to tell this Committee what exactly you are applying for?

MR KHWELA: I am asking for amnesty because I want to review the evil deed that I did and actually apologise to people who actually I caused damage to, there at Empusheni.

MS MTANGA: When you say evil deed, what evil deed are you referring to?

MR KHWELA: That of associating myself with the people who were actually going to kill there.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

Are you proposing to call any other witness?

MS LOONAT: No, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Williams.

MS WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

May I please call Mr Robert Khuzwayo?

WITNESS EXCUSED

BABA ROBERT KHUZWAYO (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Williams.

MS WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MS WILLIAMS: Mr Khuzwayo, please could you tell the Committee why you are here today?

MR KHUZWAYO: I was asked by the TRC to come here and listen to what Mr Khwela has to say when he is asking for Amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: You can lead him, you know. Ask him personal questions, just to establish who he is.

MS WILLIAMS: Iím going to. Mr Khuzwayo, what is your position in the Empusheni area where you live at the moment?

MR KHUZWAYO: At the moment I am the Councilor.

MS WILLIAMS: For the Empusheni area?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes.

MS WILLIAMS: And how long have you been resident in that area?

MR KHUZWAYO: I was born there.

MS WILLIAMS: Mr Khuzwayo, you have heard the evidence of Mr Khwela today.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you by occupation, Mr Khuzwayo? What kind of work have you been doing?

MR KHUZWAYO: You mean now or at that particular point in time?

CHAIRPERSON: Generally, what work have you been doing?

MR KHUZWAYO: Taxi owner.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of education have you had?

MR KHUZWAYO: I went as far as Standard 6.

CHAIRPERSON: How old are you, Mr Khuzwayo?

MR KHUZWAYO: I am 63 years old.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you at present still a taxi owner, or are you now retired?

MR KHUZWAYO: I have retired.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.

MS WILLIAMS: Mr Khuzwayo, you have heard the testimony of Mr Khwela today?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes.

MS WILLIAMS: How do you respond to that testimony? What would you like to say to the Commission with regards to the Amnesty Application of Mr Khwela?

MR KHUZWAYO: What I have heard, what he said, it wasnít the truth, he wasnít telling the truth. I am saying that because he said that I used to attack people at Efoluweni because of organisations, hence I am saying that itís not the truth.

What I know was happening at Efoluweni, it was the violence between the taxi people and the community, not political violence. Secondly, that actually passed, that is the incident that was relating to the taxis and the community.

It is a mistake for him to say that I was attacked because I was troublesome. What I know is that in that area, there was a misunderstanding between the Khwela family, it was a quarrel between the Khwela and the Msomi people and then the violence started. It was just a distance from where I stay. That violence occurred.

Msomi was my friend because I was the person in charge of the taxis at Efoluweni, then Msomi was in charge at Guamakuta. What I actually think is that probably I was actually partaking when there was the violence. I have never attacked, I did not actually attack the area of Fugunyamini where Khwela was residing under the kingship of Cele. The violence that I saw was actually across.

When Khwela is saying that it was the political violence or they were attacking because of political reasons, Khwela when he arrived here, he said he is coming here to tell the truth, now I canít understand why he doesnít tell the truth and he doesnít explain to us. We are scared of him because he canít tell the truth, what is it that we did. What he is telling the Commission is not the truth. I actually regard Khwela as a person that I should be afraid of, because Khwela, he still has aims that if he is released, he will still attack us.

Furthermore, Khwela must know very well, that us there at Empusheni, we were attacked by Khwela and them. However, after their arrest, nothing happened and that was the only incident that actually occurred and that is evidence enough for me to say that, if he is released, then the attacks will continue and weíll be killed. So the community is afraid now that if he is released, he will come back and kill us.

MS WILLIAMS: What you are saying to the Commission today is that the act which took place on the 18th of August 1992 was not motivated by political objectives, it was as a result of the taxi violence in the area, is that your evidence?

MR KHUZWAYO: Please explain to me, are you referring to Efoluweni or Emgunyameni?

MS WILLIAMS: Wherever you stayed, Mr Khuzwayo. He attacked you in your area. He said that he attacked you because there was a political motive behind the attack. He was an attacking an IFP stronghold. He was a member of the ANC. You have told the Committee that the attack was as a result of taxi violence. Is that your evidence to the Commission today?

MR KHUZWAYO: Let me explain again. What I am saying is that Khwelaís attack, Iím not sure what it was all about, but what I know is that Efoluweni there was the violence which was regarding the taxis because of the increase of the fare, so I wouldnít say why then they attacked us.

MS WILLIAMS: Mr Khuzwayo, because Mr Khwela was not actually present when the attack took place, would you be able to inform the Committee as to what actually took place when the members of the gang that attacked you, do you recall the events as they took place on that day, as far as you can remember?

MR KHUZWAYO: Iíve heard Khwela speaking, saying that when I was attacked, he was there and he said he had the homemade gun and he only shot once and ran away. He also said that he ran away just before he would actually reach my area and he say it wasnít that far and what I indicate is that he was very far from my place and actually he wasnít nearby.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we want him to explain what actually happened at his house. Forget what Khwela said, your Counsel is asking you to tell us what happened as far as you are concerned, at your house that day. What happened?

MR KHUZWAYO: I was at home in the house. There was a committee meeting for the taxis when we actually heard the gunshots and then we went outside and we realised that people were running away. Everybody tried to run away. That is what I saw.

MS WILLIAMS: Now where did you go when the shooting started. Did you stay or did you escape?

MR KHUZWAYO: I left the house. Then I told the Committee members that they should go into the taxi and they actually took off with that taxi. Then I ran away on foot because my children were there, and they were trying to run away, going into the bushes. I followed them until we actually were across that bush. When the attack was launched at my house, I was aware, I was there and everybody else was running away and other people actually wanted to see what is actually happening, until the police were called and then on their arrival, the people who were attacking then ran away. Then we went back home.

MS WILLIAMS: Could you identify any of the attackers or did you flee before they actually arrived at your home?

MR KHUZWAYO: I actually fled before even seeing them but thereafter I gathered the information that Khwela was there, thatís how I knew. But, in actual fact, I did not see them because I actually ran away while they were still at a distance from my area.

MS WILLIAMS: You say that you knew it was Khwela. Did you know Khwela before this incident?

MR KHUZWAYO: Baba Khwela was actually a taxi owner at Guamakhuta and this Khoni Khwela was actually the conductor there at that taxi rank, but on that particular day I did not see him. But I know him and Baba, I also know him.

MS WILLIAMS: Was Mr Khwela known to the people in that area? You mentioned that, from the information you heard after coming back to the area, his name was mentioned. Did the people in that area know him?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes I did hear that the people who were attacking, that it was Khoni Khwela, Baba Khwela and I didnít know the others.

MS WILLIAMS: You say that it was Baba Khwela and that it was Prince Khoni Khwela whose names you heard after the attack?

MR KHUZWAYO: Thatís the information, yes, these are the only two names that I actually heard.

MS WILLIAMS: And was Baba Khwela a rival taxi owner to yourself? Did he operate a rival taxi?

MR KHUZWAYO: No, he wasnít the driver because he was in the committee, he was the executive committee member at Guamakhuta and I was the committee member at Efoluweni so we were not drivers. However, what I know is that Baba Khwela had a quarrel with Msomi who was in the committee at that Guamakhuta, so we at Emfoluweni had nothing to do with that.

MS WILLIAMS: The persons who are in your area are here today. They have asked that you speak on their behalf. What would you like to say on their behalf to the Committee about the act which took place?

MR KHUZWAYO: The people of the area, the residents, asked me to speak on their behalf. What they are saying is that they are actually afraid of forgiving Khwela because after Khwelaís incident of killing people, there was no other such incident. Now they are afraid that if he is released the attacks, or the same attacks will actually recur, thatís what they are afraid of, if heís released.

MS WILLIAMS: What is your attitude towards the applicant receiving amnesty, should it be granted to him?

MR KHUZWAYO: I myself I am actually afraid that heís actually granted amnesty because at the moment we are residing peacefully at Emfoluweni and at Empusheni we are staying there peacefully. The last time we were attacked was when Khoni and them attacked us and there was nothing else thereafter. Everything is quiet, no problems. However, we are afraid that if they are released, then we are afraid that something will happen. We do not trust them at all.

MS WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions to put to this witness? Iím talking to you Ms Loonat.

MS LOONAT: Yes Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOONAT: Mr Khuzwayo, Iím a bit confused. You talk about Baba Khwela and my client who is also Khwela. From what I gather you say this whole massacre took place because of the taxi feud, not a political feud, is that correct?

MR KHUZWAYO: Itís not the truth that it is because of the taxis. I had nothing to do with the Guamakhuta taxis. If Khoni is saying that that was related to the taxis, that would be a mistake, that what Khoni is saying.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that you better understand here there was a conflict between the taxi owners. You heard his evidence and his evidence is, that there was ongoing conflict between the supporters of Inkatha on the one hand and the supporters of the ANC on the other hand. That is what he is saying. He didnít say that there was a dispute between taxi operators.

MR KHUZWAYO: Iím saying this because what is within the people about the politics, I donít know anything about it. What I

know is that I was in charge of the Efoluweni taxis. What actually was the violence at Efoluweni, or it was due to the increase of fare, then there was the misunderstanding, but I donít know any political motives or violence.

ADV SANDI: Just to clarify this. Do you know of any violence that was taking place between the ANC and the IFP in this area we are talking about?

MR KHUZWAYO: I wouldnít say that there is anything that I know because organisations had violence all over the country. However, I have never arrived in a meeting whereby there was the political violence.

ADV SANDI: Explain this Mr Khuzwayo. We are not talking about you arriving at a meeting, but do you personally know whether there was violence between the ANC and the IFP supporters, attacking and killing each other?

MR KHUZWAYO: No.

ADV SANDI: What was said by the Applicant was that you were a member of the IFP, do you agree with that?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, I do agree.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long have you been a member of the IFP?

MR KHUZWAYO: Ever since the beginning of the IFP I have been a member, although I do not remember the year exactly, but it has been a long time that I have been an IFP member.

CHAIRPERSON: And your friends, did you persuade your friends and all to join the IFP as well?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, I actually campaigned for people to join IFP. Yes a lot of people actually have joined the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned that Mr Msomi was your friend. Did you recruit him to become a member of the IFP?

MR KHUZWAYO: I said he was my friend because he was the taxi owner at Guamakhuta and I was the taxi owner at Efoluweni, thatís how he became my friend, thatís what I said.

ADV SANDI: This committee of taxi owners you were referring to, did you have a number of people, did you have a lot of people there who were members of the IFP?

MR KHUZWAYO: I would say that when we are in taxis we actually donít consider whether the others are ANC or IFP. In taxis we actually do not use any political affiliation, even there at Efoluweni we just call ourselves taxi owners, but we actually donít consider any political affiliation.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khuzwayo, the question put to you was, is Mr Msomi and IFP member?

MR KHUZWAYO: I wouldnít say whether he is or not, I only know him as a taxi owner.

MS LOONAT: I find that strange because you do say that he is a very good friend of yours, however, you claim that this attack was purely a taxi warfare and nothing else. You also said that at the time that Khwela attacked, he was on his way to attack your house. On that particular day you had left before you could see who actually arrived to fight? Is that correct?

MR KHUZWAYO: No, that is not correct. I said we had a meeting of committee taxi and then we heard gunshot, when we actually went outside people were being shot at and people were running away and thatís when I started to run away myself.

MS LOONAT: When you ran away, did you see who was attacking you? Before you ran away, or as you ran away, did you see who your attackers were?

MR KHUZWAYO: Maybe, well I did explain initially that they were still at a distance, I couldnít see who they were, however, thereafter I did get the information that it was Khoni and Baba Khwela. On that particular day when they were shooting, on that day I did not actually see them. I saw people but I couldnít realise or couldnít see who they were, couldnít recognise them.

MS LOONAT: So in fact your evidence here is hearsay. You assume it was Baba Khwela and Khoni Khwela, correct?

CHAIRPERSON: He doesnít assume that, he was told by somebody else, who probably was told by somebody else.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khuzwayo, please tell me, you mentioned Khwela, are you referring to Baba Khwela and Khoni Khwela, or to one of them, Iím not sure.

MR KHUZWAYO: Iím referring to both the Khwelaís. Iíve said Baba Khwela, I know him from the Makhuta taxis and Khoni Khwela, I know him as a conductor at Efoluweni taxis. Thatís what I said.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Loonat, just one detail.

You say Khoni Khwela was a conductor. Do you know who he was employed by, who was he working for?

MR KHUZWAYO: I canít quite remember because there are so many taxis, however I do know him as a conductor at Efoluweni.

MS LOONAT: So in fact, Mr Khuzwayo, you are afraid of both Baba Khwela and Khoni Khwela. Is that correct?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, thatís the truth that Iím afraid of them because it was revealed that they were actually on their way to kill me. And then if a person is actually trying to kill you, you cannot actually trust such a person. If this person was not successful in the attack of killing you, then you wouldnít actually trust such a person.

CHAIRPERSON: What if such a person changes his mind and runs away and doesnít come to kill you, then what is the position?

MR KHUZWAYO: I find it difficult to actually see that a person has changed because even when the person was attacking me, I actually didnít see that person. So even now I actually canít even see, and I will always not trust such a person.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now I want to tell you that amongst the papers we have is a case in the Supreme Court where the applicant was charged with a number of counts of murder and attempted murder. The court found him guilty, not because he shot or killed anybody, but because he joined a group of people, some of whom may have done the shooting and the killing.

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, I do hear that. However, the Court actually doesnít have evidence whether he shot and killed people. The Court doesnít have that idea, so he said he actually shot and he was not aware whether the person died or not.

CHAIRPERSON: And there was not evidence that he shot or killed anybody else besides the one shot and the Court found that he was guilty because he associated himself with the others. Do you understand?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, I do hear that. What I am actually saying is that what is seen by the Court, I would actually deny it, but

CHAIRPERSON: Yes are going to deny something when you know nothing about it?

MR KHUZWAYO: I disagree because the Court has asked me what is it that I am actually saying and indeed the Court actually has a right to say whatever it has to say, and I actually wouldnít disagree with what the Court has to say.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to ask you, did you know a man called Ngcgcina Cele?

MR KHUZWAYO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know a man called Bongi Nkosi Khwela?

MR KHUZWAYO: No, I also do not know such a person.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that on the day of the attack that was aimed at you, amongst the attackers were two people who were killed and those are the two people whose names I have mentioned?

MR KHUZWAYO: When the police came I actually heard this mentioned, the names of such people were actually mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: They were in fact dead.

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, indeed they said they were already dead.

CHAIRPERSON: In your area, near your house.

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, itís in my area but it wasnít nearby my house, it was a distance from my house. The only person who died nearby my house, it was a small boy, when we were actually running away.í He was surely killed. He is the only one who actually died nearby my house, not anyone else.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, so these two people whose names I mentioned were part of the attackers and they were killed in your area during that attack.

Do you know how they were killed, or who killed them?

MR KHUZWAYO: I only knew that there were people who were killed, it was when the police came thatís when I actually knew. I actually didnít see anything, I only saw people running away and others were shooting and I actually wouldnít say who was actually being shot except for the young, for A small boy that was surely shot nearby my house.

CHAIRPERSON: If the information is placed before you, you were not there, but if the information is now placed before you that two of the people that were involved in the attack were themselves killed, are you surprised?

MR KHUZWAYO: No, it doesnít surprise me because the police told me that some of the people actually died.

CHAIRPERSON: And you have no idea as to who could have killed them when they were among the attackers?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, I actually didnít know who actually killed them.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just come in here with a question please?

Mr Khuzwayo, is Mr Baba Khwela still living in the area?

MR KHUZWAYO: Well, Iím not sure whether heís still there. However, what I hear is that he actually ran away from the Police to an unknown area.

ADV BOSMAN: When last did you see him?

MR KHUZWAYO: It was before the attack. After the attack actually I didnít see him at all. It was before the attack.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Ms Loonat.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khuzwayo, so the attack took place in 1991, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: 1992.

MS LOONAT: I beg your pardon, 1992, is that correct?

MR KHUZWAYO: I can say that itís the truth but I donít have anything written that can remind me. However, if there is somebody who has something written, I would agree with such a person, but I donít have any written evidence for that.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khuzwayo, I beg your pardon. The point I was trying to make is that in actual fact the last time you say you saw Baba Khwela was in 1992. Is that correct? You have not heard or seen from/of him since then?

MR KHUZWAYO: I would say that if you heard actually properly, I didnít say that the last time I say him was in 1992, I didnít say in 1992, I only said it was before the attack, but if you are saying that it was in 1992 I would agree with you because you have written documents, I donít have any written documentation in front of me, but what Iím actually saying is, it was before the attack.

MS LOONAT: So Mr Khuzwayo in fact what you are saying is that you have been not living in fear of Mashilela Baba Khwela but you came here today especially to inform the Committee that you are and would be living in fear of my client should he be released today and that in fact my client is a more dangerous person to you as far as taxi violation concerned, than Baba Khwela who is actually the owner of taxis. Is that correct?

MR KHUZWAYO: Thatís not the truth. I wouldnít actually leave at home and come to tell the Commission that Iím actually scared or Iím afraid. I was at home afraid and even now I am still afraid.

I am still afraid, however, the Commission wouldnít assist me at all.

MS LOONAT: So what are you afraid of and how is the Commission not assisting you?

MR KHUZWAYO: I am saying that I didnít come here to tell the Commission that I am afraid because I knew that.....

MS LOONAT: Sorry I donít understand.

MR KHUZWAYO: I couldnít actually come to the Commission to tell the Commission that Iím afraid. Iíve been living in fear with my family all along.

MS LOONAT: What I think I heard you say, Mr Khuzwayo, is that should my client be granted political amnesty today, you would be living in constant fear of him. What has been happening with Baba Khwela meanwhile, arenít you living in constant fear of him, and he is at large?

MR KHUZWAYO: Iím actually afraid of both of them.

CHAIRPERSON: If the evidence was that this man, the applicant left the scene before the others attacked your house because he didnít want to get involved in the attack on your house, why should you be afraid of him?

MR KHUZWAYO: What he said is that he actually ran away before actually attacking my house. Itís a hearsay, he says that but I wouldnít trust a hearsay.

However, he left for a long distance and then coming to attack me and now he is telling the Commission that he ran away. However, I do actually disagree with the Commission if they grant him amnesty, but what Iím saying is what is in me and what I feel.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khuzwayo you are under oath. Please tell me, as a member of the IFP have you ever been involved in any attacks in the area on ANC members?

MR KHUZWAYO: Well I donít remember that there is any incident where I am involved. What I can say is that, if there is somebody who is saying that actually, I wouldnít know where that person could get such an information. What I know is that if a person attacks, such a person gets arrested. If I was involved in an attack, why wasnít I arrested?

MS LOONAT: Mr Khuzwayo, you are then denying that you are a warlord for the IFP as has been described?

MR KHUZWAYO: I am saying that the warlords are actually arrested. You wouldnít be a warlord and not be arrested. Iím saying that

CHAIRPERSON: There may be some lucky warlords who are still walking about.

MR KHUZWAYO: Well, I deny that.

CHAIRPERSON: Especially bearing in mind that you admit to having recruited members for the IFP.

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, I recruited people to join IFP.

MS LOONAT: Mr Khuzwayo, one final question. Are you afraid of my client because heís a rival in the taxi warfare or are you afraid of him because he is an ANC member who has categorically stated that IFP members have been attacking his ...(indistinct) for several years now and heís been actually living in fear of you, of your reprisals? What exactly are you afraid of in my client?

MR KHUZWAYO: Heís not involved in the taxi violence, however, heís involved in attacking me. I wouldnít say whether he was attacking me as an ANC member, or what. However, what I know is that he was actually involved in attacking me.

MS LOONAT: Finally, you know that that was hearsay evidence. Thank you.

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, I do know that.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOONAT

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: A few questions, thank you Chairperson.

Mr Khuzwayo, what position did you hold in the IFP?

MR KHUZWAYO: The Chairperson of IFP.

MS MTANGA: Would you agree with the evidence that the people in your area were predominantly IFP members?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, people who were in that area, it was only the IFP people, probably it could be few people who were ANC.

MS MTANGA: Did you give any evidence in Court or were you a State witness in the trial of Mr Khwela?

MR KHUZWAYO: I was in Court on that day. Yes I did.

MS MTANGA: Did you give any statements?

MR KHUZWAYO: I think so, however, whatever I said, it was written.

MS MTANGA: Are you aware that Mr Khwela gave evidence in Court and his evidence was that the attacks on your area and on your family were politically motivated? Are you aware of that information?

MR KHUZWAYO: What was actually said by Khwela I wouldnít deny or disagree, and I agree, and I donít disagree. What Iím actually saying is that I do not remember any attack related to ANC and IFP. I said what I remember was the taxi violence at Efoluweni because of the increase in fare, that is what I said. He can actually say whatever he wants to say, I actually canít say anything. He can actually say the way he knows things because that would be the way he knows the situation.

MS MTANGA: The taxi violence that you referred to was in fact between the taxi owners and the community. Am I right?

MR KHUZWAYO: It was because of the increase in fare, that was where the actual disagreement started, the conflict started.

MS MTANGA: ...(indistinct) that taxi violence, was it the community fighting the taxi owners, or the taxi owners fighting the community?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, it was the conflict of increase of fare. What I actually mean is that the community was not happy because of the increase in the taxi fare, that was what the conflict was all about.

MS MTANGA: If, as is stated here, that the only violence that was going on in the area was the taxi violence, what would have made people from Efoluweni to move into your area at Empusheni and kill the residents who were not taxi owners, and you are a taxi owner, if the motive for the attack was mainly the taxi violence?

MR KHUZWAYO: Well, I myself, I didnít actually see people from Efoluweni attacking people at Empusheni. The only information that I have is that the people from Esudweni, not Efoluweni.

CHAIRPERSON: How far is Esudweni from Efoluweni?

MR KHUZWAYO: If I may explain, Empusheni is the name of a school, but when we say Iím referring to Efoluweni, I myself I am from Efoluweni, Efoluweni it is the induna area and then there would be the names of the schools. When people talk about Empusheni they are actually referring to the name of the school. I myself I am from Efoluweni.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did the attackers come from?

MR KHUZWAYO: What I heard is that they were from Esudweni.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khuzwayo, in the taxi violence that you have told us about, was it a normal occurrence that when this taxi violence took place, if you are a taxi owner in the area, were the people who live in your area being killed because of your taxi involvement?

MR KHUZWAYO: Well it was for the first time that there was a misunderstanding. It wasnít something that used to occur. It occurred at that particular point in time and it didnít happen again and actually people sat down and discussed it and came up with the reasons that might have caused the conflict.

ADV SANDI: Ms Mtanga, I hear that you keep on referring to a taxi violence. My understanding is that there was, according to the witness here, there was a misunderstanding between taxi owners and the community. I donít think it developed, it became an actual violence. Was there actual violence Mr Khuzwayo as a result of this misunderstanding between taxi owners and the community?

MR KHUZWAYO: I would say that it was a misunderstanding between the community and the taxi owners, if I say there was taxi violence, we actually mean that the taxi owners were in conflict, or were fighting. So it wasnít like that. It was the misunderstanding or the conflict between the community and the taxi owners.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. I must clarify the reason for my questioning, itís that Mr Khuzwayo testified that the only misunderstanding which he thought could have led to his attack, was that he was involved in this taxi misunderstanding and he knew of no political motive for his attack and mainly Mr Khwela was involved in the taxi misunderstanding and therefore there couldnít have been political motives for the attack on him. Thatís what Iím trying to clarify with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Thank you.

MR KHUZWAYO: I actually wish to emphasise that what actually happened at Efoluweni, that was something of the past, the misunderstanding between the community and taxi owners, it was something of the past. My attack was actually after a long time.

MS MTANGA: The point I want to make with you is that it was not a normal occurrence for people, that is for residents in the area, to be attacked or to suffer because a person who lives amongst them is a taxi owner and is involved in a taxi rivalry only. Do you agree with me?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, I do agree.

MS MTANGA: Would you therefore agree that there could have been another motive behind the attacks on the people and yourself, other than the taxi misunderstanding that you have told us about?

MR KHUZWAYO: I wouldnít agree to something that I do not know. I must agree to something that I know. If in actual fact, that is actually an analogue that you are making, it would be a big mistake for me to agree to that. I must actually only agree to something that I know and if itís something that I do not know, I must actually spell it out to you and tell you that I do not know that.

CHAIRPERSON: 9 people died and three were wounded as a result of this attack on that day, thatís 12. Two people whose names I gave you were also killed in the process on that day and if somebody were to ask you, do you think that those women and children and others were killed because of a dispute about taxi fares, between the community and the taxi operators?

MR KHUZWAYO: If I listen carefully, is that I find somebody who agrees with me. However, I did say that initially the taxis had nothing to do with that and then I only find it from the speaker that this attack had nothing to do with the taxis. If this was in connection with the taxis, is that there wouldnít be such an attack because the Empusheni community doesnít have the taxis, so Iím the only one who had the taxis, so I wouldnít be sure actually who were the actual attackers.

CHAIRPERSON: You wouldnít be sure, but you are sure that the attack was not related to the taxi fare dispute?

MR KHUZWAYO: Iím saying that the attack wasnít regarding the taxis. If it was in connection with the taxis, I am the one who was actually supposed to be attacked and then I actually didnít be in conflict, or become in conflict with any taxi owner, so Iím the one who is supposed to be attacked rather, and then I wasnít attacked for being a taxi owner.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khuzwayo, do you know what was the particular affiliation of Mr Baba Khwela?

MR KHUZWAYO: No I do not know. I only know him involved in taxis.

MS MTANGA: Would you say to this Committee that it came as a shock to you that you were attacked because of your IFP involvement?

MR KHUZWAYO: That actually frightens me because Iíve never attacked in any place. If there was such a place that Iíve actually attacked, it would be a person such as Khoni who actually know that Iím an attacker, and that didnít even reach the police, yes, that Iím an attacker. But Iíve heard what the judge said that I could be lucky enough not to be arrested but then I still maintain that I know no such.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MS LOONAT: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Weíll adjourn now and resume at 2 oíclock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MS LOONAT IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairman, on behalf of the Applicant, I just have the following to say.

Since 1992, and a little bit before that, there was a great deal of political intolerance and intolerance of oneís political opponents was of vital to the future wellbeing of my client and to the wellbeing of this country. The accused, since 1991, was living in terror of his life and that of his immediate family whenever he heard about the unprovoked attacks by IFP supporters on ANC members, this was a fact of life that my client was living with daily, in his immediate vicinity, wherever that was, since his youth.

For the record, he left school at an early age, Standard 6. His father abandoned him in the care of his mother, a woman who earned at that time a meager income of a lowly tea lady. I hasten to add that she too was a firm supporter of the ANC party together with the others living in the same neighbourhood as the Accused and this did impact on his political inclinations without any doubt.

Mr Chairman, admittedly on that fateful day, 18th August 1992, he participated in a well-planned attack, but on a political opponent. Well planned by others more experienced than my client, in such matters. My client was a tool in their hands so to speak, obeying orders issued by Baba Khwela, a man not related to him in spite of the name, but was a most respected senior member of the ANC.

The attack on Robert L. Khuzwayo, who, as we gathered, was the Chairman of the IFP, a warlord, in Empusheni reserve, the attack on that kraal that day resulted in loss of life on both sides, for which my client, it would appear, bears the full brunt. It was a common purpose, an attack which was a politically motivated attack on the IFP, a fact accepted by Justice Magid and expressed in his Judgment.

Lives of both supporters as well as the victims, were lost that day. My clientís part, as was explained, was minimal. His firearm discharged only one shot, if at all and as we gather, it seems like nobody was hurt. He was petrified to find himself in the midst of a faction fight with people dying around him. His terror was obvious and his inexperience caused him to panic and he simply ran away.

At the age of 23 this was his first criminal offence. In his mind this was supposed to be an act of self-preservation, not what actually unfolded in front of his very eyes that day. He realises now that that is not the way to resolve any of the political problems he is experiencing. Time spent in prison has endorsed this resolve. His remorse is very profound. He lost his own friends in that attack and has made full disclosure of those people whom he knew that accompanied him on that day. He is even prepared, should he subjected to an I.D. parade, to assist further with providing the names of co-passengers. He wishes he could do more to assist the authorities in their search for the other attackers, thereby assisting the family of the victims to identify the murderers.

Why indeed should he be the only one to pay a debt to society, when close on 15 others were involved? His explanation, I repeat, is that he met the others for a short period of time and for the very first time on that day. It was not a social gathering that day, 18th August 1992. However, as I said, he has made full disclosure and it was common purpose.

Meanwhile in prison he has continued with his education, which he left in Standard 6, heís up to his matric, I gather. His solemn prayer, should the honourable members of this Committee, decide to grant him amnesty today, is to complete his studies and to make his mother proud of him after all the grief his trial has caused her. As a member of the ANC he wishes to do more for his people but in a civilised manner. An education is what he feels it hinges on. Not only a formal education, but an education in party politics. He feels, having spent 6 years in prison of the 17 years, he has paid his debt to society, albeit partially. Perhaps he should be given an opportunity to put into practice his resolve to associate with the educated in party matters instead of what he has been exposed to in his youth, that is taking his rural background in adolescence coupled with his lack of parental guidance. Nobody took notice of his political affiliation and he was misguided. His remorse is indeed deep seated.

Mr Chairman, Committee members, there is an Affidavit on page 43, I believe, in which a victimís relative has stated in point 3 that she indeed agreed that this was a politically motivated attack and that she does forgive my client for the killing. That is in point 4. She is after Mashelela, whom she wishes to come forward and apologise and my client said he would do all he can to assist in so doing. Thank you.

MS WILLIAMS IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chairman. Honourable Committee.

I do concede that the Applicantís involvement in the massacre, which took place on the 18th of August 1992, was minimal. However, the Applicant did willfully aligned himself to a common purpose, which was to attack the home of Mr A1 Khuzwayo. Although his involvement was minimal, and I do believe that his involvement would have been far greater had his weapon malfunctioned and not discharged, it is my contention that he ran away, not because he was afraid but because he no longer had a weapon in his possession, which he could use to continue the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: What evidence is there for that?

MS WILLIAMS: Itís my submission Mr Chairman. Itís a feeling.

Regarding the political objective, I would argue that there is a divergence between the instruction and the actual act that was carried out on that day. The instruction was a precise instruction which was to go to the home of Mr A1 Khuzwayo and to kill him. When the Applicant and his co-perpetrators arrived at the area where they committed the offence, they shot randomly

into the area attacking the residents, who by virtue of the fact that they fled from the area, the conclusion which can be drawn is that they werenít armed. I believe that what is contended that if it was their intention to simply attack Mr A1 Khuzwayo, which was the instruction which they were given, they would never have attacked the residents in the area, which was not the direct instruction which they had been given. They were acting on their own and with their own volition attacked those people who were unarmed.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is why?

MS WILLIAMS: I believe they were bloodthirsty and that they were seeking vengeance for whatever reason, whether it be political or not political. I think they saw them, the people in the area, as being aligned to Mr Khuzwayo for whatever reason and as an act of violence and to further an objective or whatever that might have been, they attacked those people who were innocent and helpless and harmless.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand you making that submission but look at page 27 of the Judgment. The second paragraph from the top says

"It must not be forgotten that this was a well-planned attack on a political opponent. So much so that we have evidence that the attackers, or most of them, were wearing either defence force or police camouflage uniforms."

Now doesnít that very clearly indicate that politics had a great deal to do with what was happening? The Judge found that at the trial. He said earlier on, in fact he says that, page 26 -

"While it appears that there was a political or party political motive for the attack on the kraal of Robert Khuzwayo, nevertheless, the impi of which the Accused is a member, committed unprovoked attacks on residents of the neighbouring kraals as a result of which several people were killed."

Now the Judge says in passing sentence that the fact that this was political is not an extenuating circumstance, itís not a mitigating factor. In fact he implied that this was clearly political and it didnít excuse him for what he did.

MS WILLIAMS: Yes, Mr Chairperson. Even if the Committee accepts that it was political, what I am saying is that the political objective was to kill Mr Khuzwayo, that was a direct instruction. These people arrived at that area and they then shot randomly into or at the residents of that area who were unarmed. Surely if youíre going to act on a political instruction, you would then act in accordance with that instruction, not decide on your own free will, of your own volition, to go ahead and attack innocent people in that area. They were given a direct instruction.

ADV BOSMAN: But, Ms Williams, need it be on an order? If what they did was done in furtherance of the aims and objectives of the ANC, would the Applicant not, in terms of that, qualify for Amnesty?

MS WILLIAMS: Yes, Committee Member, that leads me on to the issue of proportionality in the sense that was there proportionality between the instruction and the actual act that took place.

ADV BOSMAN: But are you conceding then that if they acted outside their formal order at that time that it was in furtherance of a political objective, on the evidence before us?

MS WILLIAMS: I would have to concede that point, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, you get a picture where first of all the Applicant must have been quite surprised when he was selected as one of the people that were going to be joined in the attack, he didnít know he was going to be one of them. They were hand-picked. He happened to be one of them and he was surprised.

He is given a gun and he goes, and the idea is that they must go to attack the area and particularly Khuzwayo. Everybody in that area was IFP. Now we have no evidence about who the leader of this expedition was, or whether there was any leader or not, but what happens is, as soon as they enter, he said: "We fired because we were in an IFP area, that is why we fired." In other words they were attacking, not individuals, they were attacking people who they regarded as IFP people because IFP people attack ANC people without regard to who the individuals are or may be. Thatís the picture one seems to get, and if that is, so then the argument that they went beyond their instructions, the instructions being merely to go and eliminate Khuzwayo, and because they went and did something more than Khuzwayo, therefore their offence is not political.

MS WILLIAMS: No, Mr Chairman, itís not that I am saying it wasnít political. What Iím saying is that there was a specific instruction that was given and in the light of the objective that was sought to be achieved, that objective in conjunction with the proportionality requirement, I would argue that there are grounds for not granting the Applicant amnesty

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that.

MS WILLIAMS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to address us?

MS MTANGA: I leave it in the hands of the Committee, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Loonat, is there anything you wish to say that you havenít said already?

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairman, all I have to say is that in my clientís mind the attack on Khuzwayo, the instruction to kill Khuzwayo, in his little mind was translated to be the end of all faction fighting which emanated from Khuzwayo himself, it wasnít a personal grudge against Mr Khuzwayo, it was his idea of reducing all the political havoc that he was creating in their area. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Just one thing, Ms Loonat. In regard to the submission that has been made by Ms Williams, proportionality and all that, specific instruction was given to the applicant, his group, to go and attack Mr Khuzwayo. On the way they indiscriminately shoot people in the area. Do you want to make any submissions specifically in regard to that? A five year old child is killed in the process. Do you have anything to say on that?

CHAIRPERSON: Isnít there a possibility that the five year old child was killed, not because the gun was aimed specifically at a five year old child? This is firing at random. One of the victims happened to be a five year old child.

MS WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, that particular person was killed in a kraal, there were four of them in that kraal and the gunman stood at the door and actually shot into the kraal.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, without regard to who was in it.

MS WILLIAMS: Correct.

MS LOONAT: In regard to Ms Williamsí submission about the proportionality and the objective, indeed my client was given instructions to attack Mr A1 Khuzwayo, as I say who, in his mind and as he mentions in his statement, that an attack on him would end Apartheid and he thought that, in his little mind, that this was the way to address it. He has, as I said, subsequently found that this is not the way to do it.

CHAIRPERSON: Iím not so sure whether in his mind he thought that if he was going to attack Khuzwayo it will end Apartheid, it might end Inkatha, it might weaken Inkatha, IFP as against the ANC at that stage, rather than being able to end Apartheid. Isnít it a bit too high to think that if they killed Khuzwayo it might end Apartheid?

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairman, I felt that as well but when I put it to him, his understanding of Apartheid was not the same as ours, to him it was an end to all kinds of political fighting and as far as the attack where the five year old child was hurt and others were seriously maimed, my client was also subjected to this kind of attacks in his area from the IFP members and in the same manner, unarmed women, children, whoever was there, were attacked while they were sitting in their kraals and so it was his way of a revenge thing and trying to resolve matters.

ADV BOSMAN: Do we have evidence in that regard Ms Loonat? I do not recall, can you refer us to any particular evidence that unarmed women and children were attacked? Is that not just an inference that you are making against the general background of the violence at the time?

MS LOONAT: When I consulted with my client

ADV BOSMAN: But you did not lead that evidence, I donít want to be too technical about it, but I think in your argument you should perhaps confine yourself to what we have before us. Your client did testify that friends and close relatives of his had been killed but there was no evidence as to unarmed women and children. I think thatís taking it just a bit far.

CHAIRPERSON: But it would have been so, except that thereís no evidence on which one can say that on this evidence, this is in fact so.

MS LOONAT: I withdraw my statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

This brings to a conclusion this particular hearing. This Committee will consider the application in due course and in due course will make known its decision. Thank you very much the Committee will adjourn now, and before I adjourn may I enquire whether it is possible for us to make an earlier beginning tomorrow than we did this morning.

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, I would say that if we could start at half past 9.

CHAIRPERSON: And with what matter will we be dealing with tomorrow?

MS MTANGA: We will be dealing with the application of Gumede.

CHAIRPERSON: And are Counsel involved in that matter?

MS MTANGA: Yes, weíve Mr Raymond Samuel appearing for the Applicant and I will be assisting the victim.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Will you arrange with Counsel and note to remind him that we are going to start at 9.30 tomorrow morning?

MS MTANGA: I will do so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Ms Williams for your assistance in this matter and Ms Loonat, thank you.

This meeting will now rise and resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

 
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