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Amnesty Hearings

Type AMNESTY HEARINGS

Starting Date 17 May 1999

Location PIETERMARITZBURG

Day 5

Names PRINCE BHEKISISA SHANGASE

Case Number AM3825/96

MR SHANGASE: We had a problem at the prison, they were refusing to bring us here.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they tell you that theyíre not going to bring you here?

MR SHANGASE: Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they tell you that they were not going to bring you here?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Give me the name of the person who said that theyíre not going to bring you here.

MR SHANGASE: Mr Mkize.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is he?

MR SHANGASE: I know him as Mr Mkize.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say why he was not going to bring you here?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, he did say.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he say?

MR SHANGASE: He said he wonít bring us here as long as we are wearing our private clothes, unless we put on the uniform.

CHAIRPERSON: So how long does that take? If you were to change your private clothes and put on your uniforms, how long does that take?

MR SHANGASE: If Iím not mistaken, it took about two hours.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to know that you are responsible to some extent. Everybody else is here, we were due to start at half past 9. You understand?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I will telephone Mr Mkize and take the matter further with him.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you prepared to give evidence this morning?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

PRINCE BHEKISISA SHANGASE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: We are nearly an hour late and apart from the inconvenience that it is causing to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, to the legal people who are present, it also involves financial considerations. Money is wasted by delays such as this and I will see that steps are taken on behalf of the Amnesty Committee to communicate with police authorities, rather prison authorities, and complain that we are not getting the kind of co-operation from them that we ought to get and to which we are entitled.

Will Counsel place themselves on record please?

MR SAMUEL: As the Chairman pleases. My name is Raymond Samuel. I appear on behalf of the applicant in this matter.

MR WILLS: As the Committee pleases. My name is John Wills, Attorney of Pietermaritzburg. I appear on behalf of the implicated person Mr Romeo Mbambo.

MS WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman my name is Gillian Williams. I appear on behalf of MrS Ndiwe Mbuyazi, one of the implicated persons.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You are the Leader of Evidence?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson. Iím Lula Mtanga, the Evidence Leader from the Truth Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to begin?

MS MTANGA: Yes, we are Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel you will call the Applicant?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson I wonder if I could ask an indulgence in order to save time? May I be granted the indulgence of sitting with my client so that I can take instructions as the evidence goes? He is in the gallery, Iíll just sit down in the gallery with him. If I can do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may do so.

MR WILLS: Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shangase, you confirm that you are bringing an application for amnesty arising out of the death of Victor Lungiswa Zumbu?

MR SHANGASE: Will you please repeat the name.

MR SAMUEL: Victor Lungiswa Zumbu.

INTERPRETER: The speakerís microphone is not on.

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: In your application for amnesty you signed an Affidavit dated the 6th of September 1996, page 8 of the bundle, Mr Chairman. Do you confirm the contents of this Affidavit?

CHAIRPERSON: Does he have a copy before him?

MR SAMUEL: My apologies Mr Chairman.

MR SHANGASE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shangase, Iíve shown you an affidavit just now, do you confirm that that is your signature on the Affidavit?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, it is mine.

MR SAMUEL: Do you understand the contents of that Affidavit?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I do.

MR SAMUEL: Do you confirm the contents of that Affidavit?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I do.

MR SAMUEL: So do you confirm that that is the basis for your application for amnesty in this matter?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Shangase, is there anything you wish to add?

MR SHANGASE: Please repeat your question.

MR SAMUEL: Is there anything you wish to add to that Affidavit or anything you wish to take out from that Affidavit?

MR SHANGASE: I would like to add.

MR SAMUEL: Could you please proceed?

MR SHANGASE: I would like you to give me some guidance as to where to start.

CHAIRPERSON: I think letís just go about it, letís get some of his personal details without too much of the history, first. How old are you Mr Shangase?

MR SHANGASE: I am thirty-two years old.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you live before you went to prison?

MR SHANGASE: At home in Umlazi.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of work did you do before you went to prison?

MR SHANGASE: I was working for the South African Police.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in fact a policeman?

MR SHANGASE: I was a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long?

MR SHANGASE: For about three years.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you stationed?

MR SHANGASE: I was stationed at Maidenhof.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you married?

MR SHANGASE: No I am not married.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know this man Victor Zwene, the deceased rather?

MR SHANGASE: No I did not know him.

CHAIRPERSON: You had never met him before?

MR SHANGASE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You were involved in an incident which resulted in his death. Was that on the 9th of February 1995?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, that is true.

MR SAMUEL: I believe its 1993, according to the record Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 9 the typed copy, the date is 1995

MR SAMUEL: On page 15 of the record, of the Court Record, the Indictment.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 15 you say?

MR SAMUEL: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You say 9th of February 1993?

MR SAMUEL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How was Zumbu killed?

MR SHANGASE: He was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you shoot him?

MR SHANGASE: I shot him once on his head.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get the gun from?

MR SHANGASE: Point of rectification, he was shot by Ntlaganepo Mtengwa.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said that you shot him in the head?

INTERPRETER: It is a point of correction from the Interpreterís side. He had said Ntlaganepo is the one who shot but that did not come out audible enough.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you when he was shot?

MR SHANGASE: I was in the car, the very car that we were driving.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel youíll now ask him the circumstances that caused this incident.

MR SAMUEL: Could you tell the Commission as to what happened on the day in question, as to how the deceased came to be shot and what was your part in this whole matter?

MR SHANGASE: I will start from the beginning.

CHAIRPERSON: No, just answer the question. How was the deceased shot and what part did you play in the shooting?

MR SHANGASE: Well, my role, or rather the role that I played, I took these boys in the car and transported

CHAIRPERSON: When you say I took these boys, I donít know who you are talking about.

MR SHANGASE: I am referring to Ntlaganepo Mtengwa and Ben Mlambo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes do carry on.

MR SAMUEL: Now did you know that Ntlanganepo and Ben Mlambo were going to steal a motor vehicle on that night in question?

MR SHANGASE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: No, just hold on. He says he took them in a car. Now shouldnít the logical question be where did he take them and why did he take them?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson? Could you tell the Commission whose car were you all using on the night in question?

MR SHANGASE: We were using Bongnkosi Dubeís car.

MR SAMUEL: And who is Bongnkosi Dube?

MR SHANGASE: He was a policeman at Siskaweni.

MR SAMUEL: Is it not true, on the day in question you went to, is it not true that you went to visit Mr Dube on the day in question?

MR SHANGASE: Please repeat your question, I donít quite follow.

MR SAMUEL: Do you confirm that the day in question you went to visit your friend, Mr Dube?

MR SHANGASE: Yes I visited him.

MR SAMUEL: And at whose request did Mr Dube lend you his car?

MR SHANGASE: He was not requested by anyone.

MR SAMUEL: Could you tell the Commission why you were using Mr Dubeís car on the day in question?

MR SHANGASE: I requested by Ntlanganepo and Ben that I should drive them to Mrs Mbuyaziís place.

MR SAMUEL: Did you use Mr Dubeís car on that day?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, we were using Bongnkosi Dubeís car.

MR SAMUEL: And did you driveľ(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it, hold it. Did you ask Mr Dube for permission to use his car?

MR SHANGASE: No. I use the car quite often, I didnít request for it.

CHAIRPERSON: So he didnít know that you were using his car.

MR SHANGASE: He saw us leaving.

CHAIRPERSON: And he didnít object?

MR SHANGASE: No, he didnít.

MR SAMUEL: Did you tell him where you were going to?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, we told him that weíre going to Mrs Mbuyaziís place.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes carry on.

MR SAMUEL: Did you all go to Mrs Mbuyaziís place?

MR SHANGASE: I was driving, headed to Mrs Mbuyaziís place.

MR SAMUEL: Did either Ben or Ntlanganepo tell you why they were going to Mrs Mbuyaziís place?

MR SHANGASE: No, they did not make mention of that.

MR SAMUEL: Did you all get to Mrs Mbuyaziís place on the day in question?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, we got there.

MR SAMUEL: Would you tell the Commission whether you know Mrs Mbuyazi.

MR SHANGASE: I know her.

MR SAMUEL: And who is Mrs Mbuyazi.

MR SHANGASE: Sheís one leader of IFP in Eskowini.

MR SAMUEL: When you got to Mrs Mbuyaziís place what happened?

MR SHANGASE: We parked our car outside and then alighted from the car together with Hlani but I was left in the car.

MR SAMUEL: What happened thereafter?

MR SHANGASE: They got inside for a while, I would estimate about ten minutes and they got out together with Mrs Mbuyazi, coming to the car.

MR SAMUEL: Did Mrs Mbyazi come to the car thereafter?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, she came to the car.

MR SAMUEL: Does Mrs Mbyazi know you personally?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, she knows me very well.

MR SAMUEL: And did you speak to her on the day in question?

CHAIRPERSON: At that time?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, she greeted me.

CHAIRPERSON: When these three came out of the car to the house, came out of the house to the car, what happened then?

MR SHANGASE: They got inside the car, Ben and Ntlanganepo that is. Mrs Mbuyazi then told us that

CHAIRPERSON: Did all three of them get into the car or just the two companions?

MR SHANGASE: Ntlanganepo and Ben only was inside the car then Mrs Mbuyazi was left outside.

CHAIRPERSON: After they got into the car, what happened?

MR SHANGASE: Mrs Mbuyazi thereafter said she wishes us well, we should be careful.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened then?

MR SHANGASE: We left the Mbuyaziís place and joined the main road along the residential area.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you go to?

MR SHANGASE: They showed me the road leading to H2, right there at or in Eskowini.

CHAIRPERSON: I didnít catch that. They showed you the direction to where?

MR SHANGASE: To H2

CHAIRPERSON: What is H2? Is that a residential area?

MR SHANGASE: H2 is a residential area, it is one section in the location in the residential area, so to speak. In other words itís a section in Eskowini.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. They showed you the road to go to H2 and then what happened?

MR SHANGASE: They showed me until we got to the place we were going to.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you going to?

MR SHANGASE: We were going to H2.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened when you got to H2?

MR SHANGASE: When we got to H2, Ntlanganepo said I should drive slowly, reduce the speed, and suddenly I heard Ben saying "this person is not here" and Ntlanganepo asked, "how do you know that heís not here?" Ben answered and said "the car that belongs to that particular person is not parked where itís usually parked."

CHAIRPERSON: And whilst you were driving you heard this conversation?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the next thing that happened?

MR SHANGASE: We took a u turn and drove back and joined one other road down the location, or that section in Eskowini.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to pause here now. At the stage when they were talking among themselves, "this person is not here", you didnít know who they were talking about. Is that correct?

MR SHANGASE: I did not know who they were talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: So after making the u turn, where did you drive to?

MR SHANGASE: In my opinion we were going back where we resided.

CHAIRPERSON: You were going back to Mr Dubeís house, to where you borrowed the car, is that what youíre saying, is that what you thought?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Tell me what happened then.

MR SHANGASE: When we got to a stop where we were supposed to join now the main road I was referring to down the location, I then saw a silver grey Golf approaching from the main road and indicating and I heard Ben and Ntlanganepo saying together at the same time that "here is this person".

ADV BOSMAN: Did they say a name or did they just say "here is this person"?

MR SHANGASE: They said that here is the person we are looking for or we want.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened then?

MR SHANGASE: Then they told me to take a u turn immediately and follow him close. Indeed I did exactly that. I followed him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What happened then?

MR SHANGASE: We followed him until he parked his car in one house that I did not know and we drove past that house and we parked the car in front of his.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Please carry on. What happened then?

MR SHANGASE: Then we saw him alighting from his vehicle getting in this particular house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR SHANGASE: We waited for about a little more than 10 minutes and he came back, went back into his car.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he alone?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, he was alone.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he drive off?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, he drove off and we followed him still.

CHAIRPERSON: This house where he had stopped the car, did you know whose house that was?

MR SHANGASE: No, I didnít know whose house was that.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened when you followed his car?

MR SHANGASE: We followed him until we got to the main road, the very road that we saw him from.

CHAIRPERSON: For what distance did you travel about?

MR SHANGASE: I think it was one kilometre.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened then?

MR SHANGASE: As Ntlanganepo and Ben were talking in the car, they were wondering if we should stop him right there or keep following him and get the idea as to where he was going to.

CHAIRPERSON: I donít understand what you mean by that.

What were you saying?

MR SHANGASE: I am trying to explain that when we were following him from that house where we had parked our cars, Ben together with Ntlanganepo were talking in the car, discussing in the car as to what should be next and where should he be stopped or maybe should we follow him all the way until we get the idea or to the place where he was going to, the car in front, ahead of us.

ADV BOSMAN: Tell me, were you wearing your police uniform at this stage?

MR SHANGASE: No I was in my private clothes.

CHAIRPERSON: So what did they eventually decide to do?

MR SHANGASE: They then said to me I should flick some lights to him and try to stop him right away.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was it that said this to you?

MR SHANGASE: Ntlanganepo said I should stop him right then.

ADV SANDI: During all this time did you know why this person had to be followed?

MR SHANGASE: Although I did not have a clear explanation, but could tell that something was amiss and something was going to happen to him because I remembered Mrs Mbuyaziís words at that particular time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mbuyaziís words didnít mention any name of this person, she merely said look after yourselves, be careful. Thatís what she said. My question is, here you are driving a car and these companions are telling you what to do, where to go, to signal to the car to stop. The question my colleague is asking you, did you know what was going to happen? Either you did or you didnít.

MR SHANGASE: I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of the day was all of this?

MR SHANGASE: If Iím not mistaken I think it was around 10 p.m. at night.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you flick your lights?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I did. I did exactly that.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened?

MR SHANGASE: Indeed he stopped.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And then?

MR SHANGASE: And I parked right next to his car, on the right hand side of his car.

CHAIRPERSON: Alongside his car?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, on the right hand side.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What happened next?

MR SHANGASE: Ben and Ntlanganepo got out and went to him and spoke with the person.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was Ben?

MR SHANGASE: Are you referring to when he had already gotten out of the car or when he was still inside, I donít quite understand your question.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us Ntlanganepo went and spoke to this man in the car. At that stage, where was Ben? Or is he the same person? I beg your pardon. Did both of them get out of the car?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, both of them got out of the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, my mistake. Yes, they went out and they spoke to this person and you remained in the car?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I remained in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What happened then?

MR SHANGASE: When they had gotten out of the car I then moved the car to park in front of this personís car.

ADV SANDI: Why did you do that?

MR SHANGASE: My intention was to move from the road and park alongside the road because at the time I was partly parked in the main road.

ADV SANDI: You did not want to cause an accident on the road?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So now, here you are, you are in one car and the other car is behind you. What happened then?

MR SHANGASE: At that time, when I was trying to park correctly in front of his car, I then heard the gunshot.

CHAIRPERSON: You were still in your car when you heard the gunshot?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened next?

MR SHANGASE: Then I applied brakes on the car and opened the door. As I was attempting to get out I saw Ntlanganepo

pulling the driver of that vehicle, pulling him away from

the driverís seat, out.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Then you say you saw him pulling the driver out of the car. What happened then?

MR SHANGASE: He then got inside the driverís side of the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SHANGASE: Then Ben rushed to me immediately and told me to drive and run away from that scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Ben accompany you in the car?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: So what did you think was happening here?

MR SHANGASE: I donít quite understand your question.

ADV BOSMAN: What went through your mind at this moment? You didnít know exactly what was going to happen, so when all this happened, what did you think, what is happening here? Youíre a policeman.

MR SHANGASE: The words that were uttered by Mrs Mbuyazi reflected once again, then I knew exactly then ľ(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Nonsense. Youíre a policeman and you are talking nonsense. Mrs Mbuyaziís words had nothing to do with it. You just heard her say go well and be careful. That is all she had said. Now how can you talk about Mrs Mbuyaziís words? You see somebody killing. Did you know that there was going to be killing?

MR SHANGASE: No I didnít know that somebody would be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was this, you saw this person being shot, what went through your mind at that time, if anything at all?

MR SAMUEL: Before he answers the question, may I just please interrupt, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Shangase, did Mrs Mbuyazi tell you that you must be careful or did she bid you a safe operation, because in your Affidavit you stateľ(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well he hasnít said any safe operation, you know, heís uttered the words that she spoke. Put your question to him nevertheless. In his Affidavit, what did he say?

MR SAMUEL: On page 9 of the bundle you say that "she greeted me and then she bid a safe operation and that we must secure one another". What was the true position? Did she tell you be careful, or did she bid you a safe operation?

MR SHANGASE: She had said we must have a safe operation.

MR SAMUEL: Just one more question, Mr Chairman.

What did you think she meant by this, by those words, have a safe operation?

MR SHANGASE: At that time I did not quite know as to what she was referring to or rather talking about.

MR SAMUEL: Did those words mean anything to you thereafter, after you saw this incident of the shooting? Would you then answer?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, when this thing was happening now, one person being shot without anything that was said to me prior to the incident, I then thought that that operation that lady referred to is this very one that is happening now.

ADV BOSMAN: Letís take it a bit further, Mr Shangase. You donít only see a person being shot, you see a car being taken immediately after the shooting. What did you think was the operation, to take the car or to shoot a person?

MR SHANGASE: I saw a person being shot and the vehicle being taken away.

ADV BOSMAN: What did you think about this taking of the vehicle, what was happening there?

MR SHANGASE: At that very moment they had not explained to me, Ben and Ntlanganepo, that for what reason were they killing that person and why they were taking his car away.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes so the position in fact is that you didnít even know that anybody was going to be killed, or did you?

MR SHANGASE: No, I did not know that some person would be killed.

ADV SANDI: Did you ask the gentlemen who were travelling with you in the car, Ben and Ntlanganepo, did you ask them what Mrs Mbuyazi was talking about?

CHAIRPERSON: He didnít know.

MR SHANGASE: I did not know a thing at that particular time.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you in fact know that one of your companions was armed with a gun?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I knew that they were armed.

CHAIRPERSON: Both of them were armed?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: At what stage did you become aware that they were both armed?

MR SHANGASE: I got aware about that from the time we left the house we were living in.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Shangase, would it not have been logical for you, when you were bade a good operation, to ask what operation is this?

MR SHANGASE: I would like to know which time youíre referring to, from the time when we left the house, or after the person was killed?

ADV BOSMAN: Iím talking about when Mrs Shiabasi said to you.

CHAIRPERSON: No, Mrs Mbuyazi

ADV BOSMAN: Mrs Mbuyazi, when she said have a safe operation and secure one another. Was this not the time when you should have asked your companions, but what operation are we going on?

MR SHANGASE: No, I did not ask.

ADV BOSMAN: I know you did not ask. Iím asking you would one not expect a person to say, but what operation? You are a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: It didnít occur to him.

ADV BOSMAN: Didnít it occur to you at all? And I want to know why not?

MR SHANGASE: I have no reason.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you armed that night?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I was armed with a 9 mm.

ADV SANDI: Why were you armed?

MR SHANGASE: As the situation at the time was violent and the IFP, in fact the violence was rife at the time, all the time I would be armed because of the situation that prevailed at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on. We have reached the stage where you and Ben drove off. What happened after that?

MR SHANGASE: We drove off back to the house, the house we were living in.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say Ďwe were living iní are you talking about you and your two companions, were they living there as well?

MR SHANGASE: Romeo Mbambo and Bongnkosi Dube lived in that house and as well as, alright, Romeo Mbambo and Bongnkosi Dube and one other police by the name of Jabo lived in that house.

CHAIRPERSON: Its not where we lived, in other words you were not living in that house.

MR SHANGASE: No, I was not living in that house but I frequented, I visited that house.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, did you leave Mr Dubeís car there?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, we left it there.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened next?

MR SHANGASE: Then I got inside the house and took my bag with and left and went to my girlfriendís place to put up there.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the person that was shot? Did you just leave him lying there in the road?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, we left him lying there next to the road.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Samuel, do carry on.

MR SAMUEL: After Ntlanganepo had taken the motor vehicle, where did you all go to thereafter?

MR SHANGASE: When we left the scene where the person was shot, Ntlanganepo overtook us in the same car, that personís car overtook us, and we drove to the house, myself and Ben and Ntlanganepo took another off ramp headed to J1.

MR SAMUEL: Did you question Ntlanganepo as to why he had taken the motor vehicle?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean on that occasion, on that night?

MR SAMUEL: On that night, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he get a chance to talk to him?

MR SAMUEL: Sorry, on the following day when you met. Did you, sorry

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think you should just go a little more carefully.

MR SAMUEL: Did you meet that night?

CHAIRPERSON: After Ntlanganepo shot this person and drove off in the car. Did you get a chance to question Ntlanganepo as to why he shot this person, that night?

MR SHANGASE: No, I did not have any opportunity that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know where he was going to?

MR SHANGASE: No, I did not know.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you ask Ben? You were in the car with Ben, did you ask Ben whether he knew why the car was taken and why the man was shot?

MR SHANGASE: No, I didnít ask Ben as well.

MR SAMUEL: Did you have an opportunity to meet Ntlanganepo after the day of the incident?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: And did you speak to him about this incident?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, we met with him and we talked about this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MR SHANGASE: That happened when he got to Durban, driving the same vehicle, the following day.

MR SAMUEL: And what was his response when you asked him about the motor vehicle?

MR SHANGASE: When I asked him as to why he killed the person and took the car, he then said that that was according to the plan that he should kill the person and take the vehicle and go put it somewhere else far away so that it does not tie very well and evidence is destroyed somehow.

CHAIRPERSON: He said it was according to plan that the car has to be hidden.

MR SHANGASE: Yes, thatís what Ntlanganepo told me, that that is how it was planned, that this person must be killed and the car must be abandoned far away.

CHAIRPERSON: Hidden far away, or abandoned?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat your question, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You say abandoned, are you trying to say it was hidden? There is a difference between a car being hidden and being abandoned. What did he say, did he say the car was to be abandoned or it was to be hidden?

MR SHANGASE: Truly speaking, that car was supposed to be thrown away, but then he said he wanted some place to hide it for a short time and then after that it will be thrown away.

CHAIRPERSON: This conversation you had with Ntlanganepo, that took place in Durban?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Ben present at the time?

MR SHANGASE: No, Ben was not there at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the next thing that you did?

MR SHANGASE: I then took him to show him the place where he can possibly hide the car for a short while.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MR SHANGASE: At P section in Umlazi.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that your house?

MR SHANGASE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and what happened then?

MR SHANGASE: We got there at that particular house and left the car there and we came back and I took him to Siphiwe Mvuyaniís house.

ADV BOSMAN: Whose house was this at P section?

MR SHANGASE: That house belongs to Siphiwe Mvuyaniís girlfriend.

CHAIRPERSON: Spell the name please. The house of who?

MR SHANGASE: Must I spell out Siphiwe?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.

MR SHANGASE: Siphiwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he have any other names?

MR SHANGASE: His first name is Siphiwe and the surname is Mvuyani.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What was the next thing of any significance that happened?

MR SHANGASE: Another thing, Ntlanganepo told me that Mrs Mbuyazi would like to see me, if I have time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SHANGASE: Indeed I got an off from work and I went back to Eskowini. On my off day I went to, not that day when we met Ntlanganepo in Durban, days after that I got an off day from work and I went to Eskowini.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you go there?

MR SHANGASE: Its because Ntlanganepo had told me that Mrs Mbuyazi would like to see me.

CHAIRPERSON: On your off day you went to Mrs Mbuyazi?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what is the next thing of significance that happened? Is Mrs Mbuyazi present here?

MR SHANGASE: I found Mrs Mbuyazi and she asked me as to how the situation was in Durban and how the comrades are in Durban, are they notľ(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it. Is Mrs Mbuyazi represented as an implicated person by somebody?

MS WILLIAMS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I am representing Mrs Mbuyazi.

CHAIRPERSON: Is she here?

MS WILLIAMS: No Chairperson, she isnít.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway. And I donít want to hear a conversation between him and Mrs Mbuyazi. What happened as a result of your talking to Mrs Mbuyazi?

MR SHANGASE: She said to me, or she told me that sheís thankful and grateful to me although the wrong person was killed, the real person that was supposed to be killed is still alive.

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it, hold it. Yes.

MR SHANGASE: What must I say now?

CHAIRPERSON: She said to you that the right person was still alive. What happened after that?

MR SHANGASE: She said that to me and then said that Victor Zunguís brother was the person who was supposed to be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell the Court in your trial about what Mrs Mbuyazi said about the killing of these people?

MR SHANGASE: No, I did not say that to the Court.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anything of any significance happen after you talked to her?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was that?

MR SHANGASE: She asked if the car was already thrown away or abandoned.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you know what had happened to the car at that stage?

MR SHANGASE: No, I did not know then.

CHAIRPERSON: So what did you tell her?

MR SHANGASE: I told her that I think yes, it has been thrown away because I went to check on it and it was no longer there and it went without saying that it was already abandoned or thrown away.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Is that all that happened?

MR SHANGASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you arrested?

MR SHANGASE: I think after three weeks and maybe two days, three weeks two days after this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were you arrested?

MR SHANGASE: When Captain Ndlovu came he told me that I am implicated in this case of murder and the car.

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to take a short break for about 10 minutes and weíll resume again.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

PRINCE BHEKISISA SHANGASE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any further dealings with the car or any part of the car after that incident?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I saw the car when I was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: My question was whether you had anything to do further with the car or any part of the car.

MR SHANGASE: No, I never used the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Did people say that they saw you driving the car?

MR SHANGASE: No, Iíve never driven the car, Iíve never touched that car with my hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether Ben Mlambo had anything to do with the car after that incident?

MR SHANGASE: No, I donít know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Samuel are there any questions you wish to put?

MR SAMUEL: Yes, just one question Mr Chairperson. Mr Shangase at the time of this incident, did you belong to any political party?

MR SHANGASE: Yes, I was a member of IFP.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Counsel that are appearing for implicated persons, are any of your clients implicated so far?

MS WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman Iíve just got two questions to put to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: On behalf of?

MS WILLIAMS: Well, Iíd just like to clear up a few issues regarding the conversations which took place allegedly between the applicant and Mrs Mbuyazi.

CHAIRPERSON: So itís on behalf of Mrs Mbuyazi.

MS WILLIAMS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly you may put those questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WILLIAMS: Mr Shangase, when you had the alleged conversation between Ntlhanganepo and yourself regarding Mrs Mbuyazi wanting to see you, was anybody else present? Can you just confirm that there was nobody else present at that conversation.

MR SHANGASE: Yes, someone was present.

MS WILLIAMS: Who was present?

MR SHANGASE: Bosani Ndlovu.

MS WILLIAMS: And who is Mr Ndlovu?

MR SHANGASE: Heís a certain man who is staying next to my home, or he is my neighbour.

MS WILLIAMS: Mr Shangase, when you had the conversation with Mrs Mbuyazi, was anyone else present when that conversation took place?

MS WILLIAMS: No, no one.

MS WILLIAMS: Thank you. Thatís all I have.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS WILLIAMS

MR WILLS: No questions Mr Chairperson. Iím acting for Mr

Mbambo.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS MTANGA: I have no questions Chairperson on behalf of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any further evidence Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: No further evidence Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you are excused. You can go down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairman, except to state that it has been proved that the applicant is a member of the IFP, unfortunately the circumstances are, based on the evidence that was led before this Commission, I am unable to take this matter any further than what it has gone so far.

In the circumstances I leave the matter in the hands of the Honourable Commission. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You have no comment?

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson.

MS WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson may I just place on the record that Mrs Mbuyazi will not be opposing this application for amnesty, but that ľ(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just take all that please. Yes.

MS WILLIAMS: But that she has instructed me to advise the Commission that she had no involvement with the murder of Mr Zungu. That is all I have to say.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, just for the record as well. Mr Mbambo, whom I represent, confirms the contents of the Affidavit which appear at pages 60 to 61 and the handwritten version 62 to 64 of the record. Basically Mr Chairperson what that means is that whilst he was not implicated in the evidence in the bundle, he admits having given two firearms to Ntanganepo Mtengwa and it seems that these firearms were used in this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: That has nothing to do with the firearm that was in the possession of the Applicant.

MR WILLS: From the evidence it doesnít appear so, but it does appear from the Court record that the firearm was probably the one used in the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. As there is no further evidence in this matter, that brings to an end todayís hearings. The Committee will consider this application and in due course, make known its decision to all the interested parties. Ms Mtanga will you take note of the fact, will you make inquiries whether the late Mr Zungu had any dependants.

MS MTANGA: I will make such inquries Mr Chairperson. Mr Zunguís brother is here.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he hers?

MS MTANGA: Yes he is.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zungu, will you please just come forward?

What are your names Mr Zungu?

MR ZUNGU: ľ(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speakerís mike is not on.

MR ZUNGU: My name is Nkosinathi

CHAIRPERSON: Could you spell your name please?

MR ZUNGU: Nkosinathi

CHAIRPERSON: Other names?

MR ZUNGU: Zungu surname.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the deceased your brother?

MR ZUNGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Your younger brother or older brother?

MR ZUNGU: My younger brother.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he married?

MR ZUNGU: He was not married.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there anybody who was dependent on him at the time?

MR ZUNGU: He had a child and his parents to take care of.

CHAIRPERSON: How old is this child?

MR ZUNGU: 11 years old.

CHAIRPERSON: Does this child live now with whom? With his grandparents? With your parents?

MR ZUNGU: Yes, with my parents.

CHAIRPERSON: And what is the address where your parents and this child live?

MR ZUNGU: P O Box 699 Eshowe

CHAIRPERSON: If you can get any physical address, do so.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: If you can get a physical address, this is a P O Box.

MS MTANGA: Right, I will do so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Zungu. You are excused.

We have come to the end of this session of meetings of the Amnesty Committee. The Committee will rise.

HEARING ADJOURNS

 
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