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Amnesty Hearings

Type AMNESTY HEARINGS

Starting Date 07 June 1999

Location PIETERMARITZBURG

Day 1

Names ANILRAJ SINGH

Case Number 6326/?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Loonat?

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairperson, do I call Mr Singh now, the next applicant, to give evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a five minute break and then if you could start with the applicant.

COURT ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Singh, what are your full names?

MR SINGH: First name Anilraj, surname Singh.

ANILRAJ SINGH: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS LOONAT: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, may I please bring to the attention of the Committee Members at the outset that my client is a man who stammers. He has got an asthmatic problem, and coupled with all that he is very, very tense. So, please would you bear with him. Thank you. Mr Singh, please tell the Committee Members how old you are?

MR SINGH: 32.

MS LOONAT: When did you join the Police Force?

MR SINGH: 1990.

MS LOONAT: What is the level of your education?

MR SINGH: Std 10.

MS LOONAT: Is this the Std 10 of normal school, or police Std 10?

MR SINGH: Normal school.

MS LOONAT: What is your qualifications or your rank at the Police Force?

MR SINGH: Constable.

MS LOONAT: Are you a member of the IFP party.

MR SINGH: That's true.

MS LOONAT: Have you got proof of membership?

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

MS LOONAT: Does the Committee need to see proof of it?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if he can show it, show it to us, yes.

MR MALAN: When did he join?

MS LOONAT: When did you join the IFP Party?

MR SINGH: 1993, formally.

MS LOONAT: Why do you say formally?

MR SINGH: Paperwork of mine came through in '93.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. The document that's been handed to us, just for record purposes, is a letter with Inkatha Freedom Party letterhead, saying that there were consultations with political prisoners on the list and then, is your name one of the names on this long list?

MR SINGH: That's true.

CHAIRPERSON: We can have a copy, we'll have a copy made of that and we'll call that letter Exhibit A.

MS LOONAT: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Singh, you know Mr Ramdas from the Police Force. Is that correct?

MR SINGH: That's true.

MS LOONAT: How long have you been associated on the Police Force?

MR SINGH: Three years.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you meet Mr Ramdas as a policeman or did you know him before you became a constable?

MR SINGH: 1990 is the time I actually met him in the Force.

MS LOONAT: Both of you live in Pietermaritzburg. Is that correct?

MR SINGH: That's true.

MS LOONAT: But you met for the first time in the Force?

MR SINGH: That's true.

MS LOONAT: Mr Singh, what would you like to tell the Committee Members about how you became a member of this hit squad? Very briefly, please, your part.

JUDGE PILLAY: No, let me put it this way. Mr Singh, you know all the applications or the incidents for which you make application is related to hit squad activities. Is that correct?

MR SINGH: Yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: And you were a member of this hit squad?

MR SINGH: That's right.

JUDGE PILLAY: You have heard the evidence of the previous witness as to how that came about.

MR SINGH: That's right.

JUDGE PILLAY: Is that correct?

MR SINGH: A part of mine, sir, was a senior man of mine, passed on instructions to me. And shootings followed that, basically.

JUDGE PILLAY: But basically, how this hit squad was formed, do you agree with how he explained it?

MR SINGH: That's true, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And as also contained in your motivation which is attached to your application, where you talk about going for training, etc. You confirm all that? That you've said there?

MR SINGH: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS LOONAT: Mr Singh, you took instructions from Mr Ramdas. Is that correct?

MR SINGH: That's true.

MS LOONAT: Was this after, after you came through the SWAT Course, or was it prior to that?

MR SINGH: After the course, basically, this was. Six months service had in the force itself.

MS LOONAT: The SWAT Course, how long did it take?

MR SINGH: Six days, basically.

MS LOONAT: Were you on the SWAT Course at the same time as Mr Ramdas?

MR SINGH: No, ma'am.

MS LOONAT: Would you like to tell us briefly what was, what, what happened at the course? What kind of training did you receive?

MR SINGH: Anti-terrorism course this was. Debussing was shown to us. House penetration and R5 rifle briefly, on the course itself. Video tapes as well showed to us. Policemen shot on the tape they had about 40-odd cops shot. Heads blown off, chest wounds and things. And senior personnel, Captain O'Connell, and Warrant Officer Prinsloo said that MK soldiers and members of ANC shot them. And he says that they are terrorists.

MS LOONAT: During the video footage, did you actually, what did you actually see? Them being attacked, or did you see bodies?

MR SINGH: Bodies, basically.

MS LOONAT: And was it Captain O'Connell and Warrant Officer Prinsloo who confirmed that these were colleagues that were actually murdered?

MR SINGH: That's true, ma'am.

MS LOONAT: And that they were being murdered by whom?

MR SINGH: MK soldiers, basically and supporters of ANC.

MS LOONAT: You say in your statement that policemen were being murdered at the rate of about 337 ...(intervention)

MR SINGH: 237.

MS LOONAT: Sorry, 237 per year.

MR SINGH: Per year.

MS LOONAT: How did that affect you?

MR SINGH: Frightened me, basically. I was scared of this.

MS LOONAT: Frightened you into doing what?

MR SINGH: Siding with Mr Ramdas, in the cause of his fighting these people.

MS LOONAT: Please expand on that. How was he fighting these people?

MR SINGH: By shooting them, basically.

MS LOONAT: You say Mr Ramdas was shooting people?

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

MS LOONAT: Is this part of the hit squad that you're talking about?

MR SINGH: That's true, ma'am.

MS LOONAT: What was his explanation of the hit squad?

MR SINGH: All terrorist and people from ANC, is targets of his, basically. He says that he's got to find them, seek them out, shoot them.

MS LOONAT: Was this not part of your SWAT training course as well?

MR SINGH: True, ma'am.

MS LOONAT: So how did it differ from the hit squad?

MR SINGH: Same thing, basically, this. With attacks and our targets as well. Is same people.

MS LOONAT: But the hit squad was a private venture of Mr Ramdas? Or was it instructions from the SWAT Course?

MR SINGH: SWAT Course basically says that MK soldiers, find them, and shoot them, basically. ...(indistinct) that's what the people say. They say that it's going to take a force beyond a force and the senior man of mine says that he's a forceful way of stating it.

MS LOONAT: Please give us the names of the people when you say, the senior man, and whoever you're referring to.

MR SINGH: Captain O'Connell, Warrant Officer Prinsloo as well.

MS LOONAT: What did you understand from the SWAT Course when you left it? What was your duties?

MR SINGH: Go seek out MK, shoot them.

MS LOONAT: How were you going to find these MKs?

MR SINGH: Go senior man ...(indistinct) knew how. The senior man, Warrant Officer Ramdas. Senior man says knows how. He's going to seek them out.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you, did you regard yourself within, as a member of this hit squad as being one of the foot soldiers?

MR SINGH: I'd say that's right. As a pawn, basically. The balance of the four of us, we were simply pawns. The senior man say shoot, and people at the bottom shoot.

JUDGE PILLAY: Tell me something, I just want to get something clear. I don't know if I misheard what you said. Did you say you were forced into being party to this force?

MR SINGH: No, sir.

JUDGE PILLAY: What were you forced into?

MR SINGH: I was never forced.

MS LOONAT: Judge Pillay, I think what my client was trying to say that this was a force within the force. The SWAT was the force and the hit squad was the force within the force. Is that correct?

MR MALAN: Or beyond the force.

MR SINGH: Force beyond the force. It's a part thereof, but ...

MS LOONAT: Was the hit squad a legal body?

MR SINGH: No, ma'am.

MS LOONAT: You were aware of that?

MR SINGH: Yes.

MS LOONAT: But you volunteered to go on. Please explain why.

MR SINGH: Fear, basically, ma'am. Because that SWAT Course told us that policemen now are targets and MK soldiers basically going to shoot us. The second thing they say that ANC members in the force, take over police jobs and stuff like that, ma'am.

MS LOONAT: When you say, "they're going to shoot us" who did you mean? Black, white, police?

MR SINGH: ANC blacks, basically.

MS LOONAT: Now, Mr Singh, you said that you were taught at the SWAT Course that the MK soldiers were going to shoot us.

MR SINGH: That's policemen.

MS LOONAT: The policemen and so on.

MR SINGH: That's right.

MS LOONAT: So, you were afraid of losing your and I ...(intervention)

MR SINGH: Job and my life.

MS LOONAT: On page 8, towards the end of the first paragraph. My client was afraid of losing his housing subsidy, his medical aid, together with the affirmative action rationalisation of the force, of the MK soldiers, etc. Which is why he felt that he had to assist his senior in this private hit squad. Is that correct?

MR SINGH: True, ma'am.

MS LOONAT: Mr Singh, please address your questions to the Chairperson and the Committee. What would you like to tell the Committee about an incident which is at the last, which is the last paragraph at page 8 concerning Constable Blom?

JUDGE PILLAY: Sorry, Ms Loonat, we have read the full statement. And we have evidence about the Blom incident, so you can ask him directly whatever follow-up question you want to.

MS LOONAT: Mr Singh, what, can you tell us in your own words what happened at Constable Blom's funeral. It was his personal view as opposed to what Mr Ramdas had to say.

MR MALAN: Sorry, just for the sake of the procedure and not to be too repetitive. He has given us this in this last paragraph, on page 8, that you've referred him to. So he does not have to repeat that. If there's anything in addition to what he has given us in this statement, lead that, or highlight, but please let us not go word by word through the statement again.

MS LOONAT: With respect, it's just that I'm not au fait with this, because of the time factor I had in which to give this. And my client is not able to expand, so I wanted just his personal input without going into the details of the circumstances of that day. How did it affect him personally.

JUDGE PILLAY: What did you feel about Constable Blom's funeral?

MR SINGH: Oh, it scared me, sir. That shooting itself. It scared me totally.

MS LOONAT: Are you saying that Constable Blom's death was something that you had, that the SWAT Course had foreseen and you had actually now witnessed?

MR SINGH: It's true, sir.

MS LOONAT: Mr Singh, do you know what happened to the video footage, the videos that you saw at the course? Do you know where they are now?

MR SINGH: Missing, I heard last. The tapes are gone missing.

MS LOONAT: Who told you that they're missing?

MR SINGH: Oh, Ashka told me that?

MS LOONAT: And who is Ashka?

MR SINGH: TRC investigator.

MS LOONAT: And did your counsel look for this, for these tapes as well?

MR SINGH: True.

MS LOONAT: And he wasn't able to trace them?

MR SINGH: No.

MS LOONAT: Mr Singh, you did not testify at your trial. Is that correct?

MR SINGH: That's true.

MS LOONAT: What are your reasons?

MR SINGH: Oh, biased judge. The judge sitting was an ANC judge, Andrew Wilson, and the style of his in court, I've seen it, and at the point in time, I say no. If he's the judge I can't go there.

MS LOONAT: So you weren't influenced not to give, not to testify that day?

MR SINGH: No.

MS LOONAT: Do you confirm most of what you heard of Mr Ramdas' testimony earlier on?

MR SINGH: It's true.

MS LOONAT: Is there any aspect that you would like us, that you would differ from that you would like us to hear?

MR SINGH: What I differ from?

MS LOONAT: Yes. Or is there anything in addition that you'd like us to, like the Committee Members to hear, that was not mentioned then?

MR SINGH: Yes, during the account of Solomon Dlamini. The State says that Solomon charged me sometime. The version of the 24th.

MS LOONAT: You're referring to page 15.

MR SINGH: 15.

CHAIRPERSON: One five.

MR SINGH: One five. (inaudible).

MS LOONAT: Solomon Dlamini was a taxi driver. Is that correct? He was ...(intervention)

MR SINGH: That's true.

MS LOONAT: Sorry. He was an ANC member.

MR SINGH: That's true.

MS LOONAT: When did you make a decision to kill Solomon Dlamini?

MR SINGH: Solomon Dlamini at a second march, I think the date there was 26th June 1992.

MS LOONAT: Who made that decision?

MR SINGH: With Mr Ramdas.

MS LOONAT: And why?

MR SINGH: He says that the man was a threat to him and the cause that he is fighting. He's a national threat this man.

MS LOONAT: It says in the second paragraph at page 15, that charges were brought against a colleague of yours. Did that in any way influence?

MR SINGH: No.

MS LOONAT: Did that influence neither you nor Mr Ramdas' decision that this man had to be eliminated? Is that correct?

MR SINGH: No.

MS LOONAT: Why then, was he eliminated?

MR SINGH: When Mr Ramdas passed on instruction of his he was saying that the man must be shot. Because of his words basically, this man was shot. On command of his.

MS LOONAT: Who, who was this?

MR SINGH: Oh, of Mr Ramdas. The instruction came from him to shoot this man and this man was shot.

MS LOONAT: What were your feelings about shooting this man, under his instructions?

MR SINGH: It, it seemed harsh, but the senior man say shoot, and the man was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why Constable Maistry was involved in that incident? Why Constable Maistry was present at the killing of Solomon Dlamini, seeing that he was not, at the time, a member of your hit squad?

MR SINGH: A summons of his came on 19/11/92. Our senior man, Warrant Officer Ramdas, he was there, and led out Solomon, the summons, I think he actually ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I, we know that, we know that from what Mr Ramdas told us that, I think it was the 26th or 27th November, he came with the summons about the damage to the taxi, but do you personally, if you don't know, you must just say so, but I'm asking you. Do you personally know how it came about that Constable Maistry was present at the killing of Dlamini, seeing that, according to what you say, the summons wasn't the reason for the killing, it was some other reason, and seeing that Maistry wasn't a member of the hit squad. Now why would he have ended up being there? It's, it's, one would imagine that a hit squad who was killing somebody and it's a secret hit squad, would like to keep it as secret as possible and not let in outsiders. So this is what I'm trying to find out.

MR SINGH: Senior man Warrant Officer Ramdas brought him home. I don't know why, but Constable Maistry, Constable Williams and Warrant Officer Ramdas came home. How and why, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that Constable Williams was a member of the hit squad.

MR SINGH: Yes, sure.

CHAIRPERSON: So his presence is understandable and also Indaba and Nkono and yourself, because you were a member of the hit squad, but Maistry wasn't.

MR SINGH: No, I don't know why.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, I think would be the best way, Ms Loonat, just deal with each of the incidents and ask if your client wishes to say anything about them. Perhaps take them in the order that Mr Ramdas dealt with them, starting with Sipho Ndlovu and then Jesmondene.

MS LOONAT: Yes, Mr Chairperson, because I see we've jumped onto - to assist you, Mr Singh, we'll go back to the first incident. What can you tell us about the killing of Sipho Ndlovu. I think that was the first man on your hit list. Is that correct?

MR SINGH: The killing of him? No, he was still alive.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the attack.

MS LOONAT: The attack.

MR SINGH: The attack. On the first count, senior man Warrant Officer Ramdas says that this person needs to be shot. On the same night, Constable Norman, Constable Mandla Nkosi went to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Norman you mean Nkono and Mandla Nkosi you mean Indaba.

MS LOONAT: What was the, sorry, Mr Singh. Please tell us what was the reason for attacking Mr Zulu.

MR SINGH: Zulu?

MS LOONAT: Sipho Zulu. Sipho Zulu. We are discussing ...

CHAIRPERSON: Ndlovu.

MS LOONAT: Sipho, oh, I beg your pardon. Sipho Ndlovu.

MR SINGH: Warrant Officer Ramdas says that on the same night we must go and this person will be shot. On the instruction of his basically, this man was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Ramdas tell you why he must be shot?

MR SINGH: Oh, ANC member only he says, this man was. And he says that the squad must shoot and the squad went out and the squad shot.

MS LOONAT: Did you have no questions to put to Mr Ramdas?

MR SINGH: No. Junior man I am and the senior man is him.

JUDGE PILLAY: As I understand it, you're saying that you did all this because you were ordered to this. And I can well understand, I can well understand where legal activities are involved that a policeman or a soldier must do as ordered.

MR SINGH: That's true.

JUDGE PILLAY: What about illegal activities? Is he bound to follow orders in illegal activities?

MR SINGH: Oh, legal activities?

JUDGE PILLAY: Illegal.

MR SINGH: Hey, oh, like, SWAT Course told me that shooting MK, shooting ANC is right and at this time I was six months service I had, and a senior man of mine says that this person the ANC is, so on the same grounds, people were shot.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Judge Pillay is getting at, Mr Singh, is if one's in the Police Force, you've got your hierarchy, right. You've got your officers and others and an order from an officer has got to be obeyed, and if you don't obey it, you get into trouble.

MR SINGH: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, here we're dealing with a hit squad, which you yourself have testified saying you realised its activities were not legal. It was acting unlawfully. So that police hierarchy, although you were a policeman involved with special constables, it was without the structure of the formal Police Force. So, what Judge Pillay is asking is, was it in those circumstances necessary for you to just mindlessly obey the order given to you, but rather because it was an illegal activity and you had something to ask a question about, you could ask the question about it.

MR SINGH: Like in the force itself over there. The system is that junior officers can't question seniors. You can't.

JUDGE PILLAY: But, this was a private hit squad. It wasn't one that was sanctioned by your superiors.

MR SINGH: Captain O'Connell said so that MK soldiers must be shot. The people from the ANC, a senior person to me.

JUDGE PILLAY: I, assuming I accept that. Mr Ramdas has come to us and told us, look, he had no orders to establish this hit squad, he did it on his own.

MR SINGH: That's right.

JUDGE PILLAY: It was, it could just have well have been people who were party to this hit squad were not policemen.

MR SINGH: That's right.

JUDGE PILLAY: Now, the question I want to put to him, or want your comments on, is how did you feel about it, in the sense that it was a private hit squad, embarking on illegal activities.

MR SINGH: That's right.

JUDGE PILLAY: Why do you think you can rely on the fact that you were ordered to do so by Ramdas, or whoever, when in fact it was a private Robin Hood and his Merry Men?

MR SINGH: Police courses like SWAT Course itself say so. That if they're shot, it is right. The Course said so.

CHAIRPERSON: So you, you personally regarded it as he being your senior officer within the hit squad, so you just obeyed orders.

MR SINGH: That's right.

MS LOONAT: What happened to Sipho Ndlovu?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you go on. Were you present at the house, there?

MR SINGH: At the house, that's right. In the small bush, I was present there. At the house itself, no.

MS LOONAT: Your, when you plotted to kill Sipho Ndlovu, what was your part in it?

MR SINGH: Stop group, basically.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just repeat?

MR SINGH: Stop up group, back-up unit.

MS LOONAT: And where was this supposed to take place?

MR SINGH: To take place?

MS LOONAT: Where were you stationed as a back-up unit? When you were attacking Sipho Ndlovu? Were you at the scene?

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

MS LOONAT: How far away were you?

MR SINGH: I say about 50, 70 metres.

MS LOONAT: And what were you supposed to do?

MR SINGH: If shooters of mine fail, then that man onus is me.

MS LOONAT: And your reasons for taking part in shooting, in attacking Sipho Ndlovu, what were they now?

MR SINGH: Senior man Warrant Officer Ramdas he say so that this person has to be shot. And basically the squad went down, including me.

MS LOONAT: We'll go on to the Jesmondene squatter camp attack.

MR MALAN: Just, just before you proceed. Referring to page 11. You give us the information there but you give much more information simply an order. You talk about Indaba, Zuma ordering the hit. When did you get this information?

MR SINGH: On 1991, 11th month, plus minus. Around there. 11th, 12th month.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when Indaba said that Zuma had indicated that Ndlovu should be killed?

MR SINGH: No.

MR MALAN: Did Indaba not report to you?

MR SINGH: No.

MR MALAN: At no stage?

MR SINGH: No.

MR MALAN: Were you not responsible for him? Who was his immediate superior?

MR SINGH: Warrant Officer Ramdas.

MR MALAN: Warrant Officer Ramdas?

MR SINGH: Yes, sir, his senior, his senior man. Second in charge was me, but ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Yes, but I mean, then, you were in charge of them. Of the specials, were you not?

MR SINGH: Field work, basically.

MR MALAN: Sorry?

MR SINGH: The field work, is me. Like, patrol duties and stuff like that. The station work itself.

MR MALAN: You said you listened to Ramdas' evidence here. He made us understand that the specials were your people, that you were in charge of the special constables.

MR SINGH: Totally, no.

MR MALAN: Not totally?

MR SINGH: No. I was a driver for them, yes. The casspir and the squad sits inside. For the vehicle and the squads and the firearms and things like that.

MR MALAN: No, who gave them their orders daily? Who was in charge of the specials?

MR SINGH: Oh, Warrant Officer Ramdas.

MR MALAN: Did he meet with them daily? Did he give them orders?

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue.

MS LOONAT: 9 Timlas Road, whose address is that Mr Singh?

MR SINGH: ; That's mine.

MS LOONAT: You say, on page 11, about the seventh line, "Indaba came back with word from Zuma telling us that Zuma ordered the hits on Ndlovu that night."

MR SINGH: That's right.

MS LOONAT: And you arranged a meeting.

MR SINGH: Where? At?

MS LOONAT: Yes, at your house.

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

MS LOONAT: So, you still say you still took instructions from Mr Ramdas, that you just reported all this to him?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who stayed at 9 Timlas Road?

MR SINGH: That's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Who stayed there at that time?

MR SINGH: Constable Norman, Constable Mandla Nkosi, I think there was a Constable Zlazla, I'm not sure at the time whether he was still there, or he moved out.

CHAIRPERSON: And Williams?

MR SINGH: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So, of the hit squad, it was Nkono, Indaba and yourself who actually lived at 9 Timlas Road.

MR SINGH: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS LOONAT: May I proceed, Mr Chairperson? The squatter camp attack. Mr Singh, the second hit was at the Jesmondene squatter camp.

MR SINGH: That's right.

MS LOONAT: This camp had, what was the political affiliation of the people living in this camp?

MR SINGH: ANC.

MS LOONAT: Were there only ANCs there? To the best of your knowledge were there any neutral people there?

MR SINGH: Neutral people, possibly. Some of them, but ...

MS LOONAT: IFP members?

MR SINGH: No.

MS LOONAT: Why do you say that?

MR SINGH: ANC stronghold this is basically. So if the people that stay inside there decide they'll fall on ANC or none.

MS LOONAT: Why did you attack the squatter camp?

MR SINGH: Warrant Officer say so.

MS LOONAT: Besides that, you had a mind of your own, you must have known what led up to it? What were the circumstances?

MR SINGH: The circumstances there is that Joe and Isaac, members of IFP basically and in this camp, the people from here, they came with sticks and stones and bushknives and things and attacked them.

MS LOONAT: So you wanted to assist two IFP members. Is that right? Joe and Isaac?

MR SINGH: Yes, yes, that's right.

MS LOONAT: Who actually, who was present at that squatter camp attack? That night?

MR SINGH: The shooters, you mean? Okay, it was Constable Norman, Constable Mandla Nkosi, Joe, Isaac, Constable Williams, it was ...(intervention)

MS LOONAT: And your part in it?

MR SINGH: Stopper group as well. We were standing on the side, if the shooters fail, then the people on the sides would shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Ramdas? Was he there?

MR SINGH: Yes. That's right. Stopper group as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Singh. Joe and Isaac, were they also special constables?

MR SINGH: No, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they just civilians?

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they friends of yours?

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

MS LOONAT: Were you successful in your attack that night? Did you kill, maim anybody?

MR SINGH: I'm not sure of that now, if the people were shot, if they were injured or people even died. We can't be sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Who fired shots? Do you know? Or how many shots, can you just give an indication?

MR SINGH: Okay, the shots I think, four maybe five shots, and the people went in armed, it was Constable Norman, Constable Mandla Nkosi. The both of them went in armed, with a 9 mm and a 765.

MS LOONAT: How many shots were fired?

MR SINGH: Four, maybe five, plus minus.

MS LOONAT: Who fired the shots?

CHAIRPERSON: He said it's the people who went up. Are you saying it could either have been Indaba or Nkono, or both, or one of them.

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

MS LOONAT: Is there any record that anybody was shot, to your knowledge?

MR SINGH: I'm not sure, ma'am.

MS LOONAT: You say, however, in the second paragraph that an Isaac Mbanjwa can give details.

MR SINGH: That's right.

MS LOONAT: Of people that were shot there.

MR SINGH: That's right.

MS LOONAT: But you're not sure if anybody was shot.

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

MR MALAN: Can you, the second paragraph of page 12, the last sentence, or second last. You refer to Constable Afsal Mohammed.

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

MR MALAN: Who is that?

MR SINGH: A neighbour of mine.

MR MALAN: Was he also present at the Jesmondene shooting?

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

MR MALAN: You didn't mention that earlier? Except in your statement now. Or did you mention his name, did I simply miss it?

INAUDIBLE ANSWER

MR MALAN: Now, why would he know about who might have been shot?

MR SINGH: No, Isaac.

MR MALAN: No, Mohammed? You say we can get more information from Mohammed, he may know who got shot?

MR SINGH: Because at the time of the shooting, he was standing, I can say, 50, 60 metres away. The closest man was him.

MR MALAN: But you've said earlier that you were about 50 metres away?

MR SINGH: Yes. You see that ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: So, he stood next to you?

MR SINGH: No, no. On this camp itself, okay, we'll say that the camp is here. The first side is here, there's a road, and the first side where the shooters went in from here, on the far end there's a stream. So the shooters went in from here, the first group stood there, two of them, and the two of us stood on the far end.

MR MALAN: Now, what was, what was the role of Mohammed? And how was he involved?

MR SINGH: Stopper group he was.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but, we, was he a member of the hit squad?

MR SINGH: No, he wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: So then why was he involved in a hit squad operation, if he wasn't a member?

MR SINGH: Oh, Warrant Officer Ramdas used him basically. He was a junior man as well. He says on this hit he must come, and he has to come and he must stand there.

MR MALAN: What he tell, what did he tell him? What was the nature of the operation?

MR SINGH: I'm not sure of dialogue between them. But at the time of the shooting he was present.

MR MALAN: In the first paragraph, you said that you observed the attack on Joe and Isaac.

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

MR MALAN: And the reason you went to the shooting at Jesmondene was simply because you were ordered.

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

MR MALAN: Not to revenge them?

MR SINGH: Partially, yes. But ...(intervention)

JUDGE PILLAY: What do you mean, partially? Had it not been for that attack on Joe and the other person, this incident would not have taken place, is that what you're saying?

MR SINGH: No, possibly not.

JUDGE PILLAY: Well, you were there, and you saw ...(intervention)

MR SINGH: We were standing from this, the final order came from Ramdas.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you think that order was made?

MR SINGH: Constable Norman, Constable Mandla Nkosi and me went to Warrant Officer Ramdas and informed him that the people in the camp are the people that struck these friends of mine, Joe and Isaac. Stemming from that, the senior man says that we must go inside there and we must shoot them.

CHAIRPERSON: So the only reason for the order was the attack on Joe and Isaac.

MR SINGH: Yes.

MS LOONAT: There's been some discussion that this matter has not been recorded and you say in the last paragraph that the charges in this respect were withdrawn.

MR SINGH: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there ever charges? You say the charges were withdrawn?

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Which implies that there were charges.

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was charged?

MR SINGH: Warrant Officer Ramdas, Constable Williams, Constable Maistry, it was me.

JUDGE PILLAY: On page 12, the last paragraph. You say "I was not charged for this count. We're talking about the Jesmondene Camp, isn't it?

MR SINGH: Yes, but prior to Jesmondene. At the trial itself, but the judgement states that the shooting happened here.

MR MALAN: That same statement is to be found on page 11 with regard to the Sipho Ndlovu, that the charges were withdrawn.

MR SINGH: Withdrawn.

MR MALAN: Did you receive, were you charged initially?

MR SINGH: Yes. On the first ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: On Sipho Ndlovu?

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right. That's the first.

MR MALAN: Well, if you were indeed charged, then why would the families not have known? Then surely there must have been a body if there was a charge on Ndlovu?

CHAIRPERSON: If not a body, a complaint.

MR MALAN: Some information. A complainant.

CHAIRPERSON: If a person killed.

MR SINGH: Oh, on the first two counts, the State judges ...(indistinct)

MR MALAN: Excuse me?

MR SINGH: On the first count and second count, the State charged us attempted murder. On the sheet itself it gave bail.

JUDGE PILLAY: Of who? You must have got the summons, isn't it? You must have read the summons?

MR SINGH: The summons?

JUDGE PILLAY: Yes, where you were charged with, or the charge sheet as it were?

MR SINGH: Right.

JUDGE PILLAY: Where it is alleged that you are guilty of attempted murder.

MR SINGH: Right.

JUDGE PILLAY: Usually the name of the victim is mentioned in the charge sheet.

MR SINGH: Okay.

JUDGE PILLAY: In respect of the first incident, who was it alleged that you attempted to murder?

MR SINGH: I'm not sure now.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, let's just get this, we don't to confuse you, we just want to find out what happened, Mr Singh. Was there actually a charge sheet? Did you appear in court?

MR SINGH: In court, yes, we did.

CHAIRPERSON: You were actually warned, etc, and you appeared in court on attempted murder charges, for the Jesmondene incident?

DISCUSSION BETWEEN MR SINGH AND MS LOONAT

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Loonat, what is the ...?

MS LOONAT: I can't seem to follow either. I believe there was bail applications so the charges were brought to them and at the point of the bail application, I can't fathom what followed.

CHAIRPERSON: But there, in fact, was ...

MS LOONAT: Formal charges

CHAIRPERSON: A process followed, a legal process followed, arising out of the Jesmondene incident.

MR SINGH: Of the shooting. That's right.

MS LOONAT: And Sipho Ndlovu?

MR SINGH: Yes, that's right.

MS LOONAT: And Sipho Ndlovu.

CHAIRPERSON: And Sipho Ndlovu. Both of them, both attempted murder.

MS LOONAT: And in the High Court, it was high charges in the High Court, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But it never reached the Court.

MR SINGH: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And you got to the bail application and then before you, anybody had to appear in the Court, it died a natural death, so the charges were withdrawn.

MR SINGH: That's right.

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairperson, I just asking, on the charge of arson that he's requiring amnesty, should we even go into that? I'm sorry, he's not requesting amnesty on that, so I ...

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOONAT

CHAIRPERSON: If he's not requesting amnesty, then, then we've got no interest at all in it.

MS LOONAT: Shall we proceed on Solomon Dlamini, the third one. I don't think we've done a thorough one of that.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to find out about what the situation is with the people. I see it's almost 5 o'clock. I don't know if the present people have a problem getting back late with this ... the interpreters. I think it might be a convenient time to adjourn. The interpreters have to talk all day. What would be a convenient time for tomorrow? Would 9 o'clock be a convenient time to start tomorrow morning. From the members of the Correctional Services, would it be possible to have the people who are in prison here by half-past eight so we can start at nine? Is dit moontlik? Asseblief. Thank you.

We'll then carry on with this matter tomorrow, that is the 8th of June in the Marion Hall here and we will adjourn to start at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning when we'll continue with the evidence of Mr Singh. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

 
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