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Type AMNESTY HEARINGS
Starting Date 28 July 1997
Names MDUDUZI M GUMBI
Case Number 0350/96
The first row in the hall consists of all victims. I am told by my learned, Mr van der Merwe, that the first applicant to be called or to testify will be M M Gumbi, matter no 0350/96. I will hand over to him.
CHAIRPERSON: I understand that the political parties who are involved, or rather implicated in this matter, that is the Inkatha Freedom Party and the African National Congress are both aware of the hearing today?
EXAMINATION BY MR DE KLERK: As it pleases the Commission. Mr Gumbi is it correct that you were involved in an attack in 1991 in the Richmond area on the 23rd of June in which you were convicted by Judge Therion on the 27th of November 1992?
MR DE KLERK: Is it correct that you grew up as a traditional Zulu, that's meaning that you believed in the traditional values of the Zulu nation, that you believed in your forefather's spirits and so forth?
MR GUMBI: During 1991 in Richmond violence erupted and it was somewhere around February when this started. People started fighting and violence was intensified. Somewhere during June 1991 on the 23rd there had been an attack on us at our area. People entered our area which was a low-lying area and they were coming from above and they shot at us and one person was shot and then we started running because we never expected to be attacked. However, we came back. When coming back the attackers ran away.
We stayed there and we gathered trying to find out as to how we are going to survive because we knew we are not going to be able to sleep. We sat and discussed. One of us by the name of Mbandla came with a view that we should pay revenge. However it was quickly said that we can do it voluntarily, we are not forced to join the revenge. Some people volunteered to go and attack, and I was one of them.
Myself and my fellow accused we arrived at the first home that was the Dlamini family and in front of the house there was a young boy standing there. When arriving there we suspected that the house might be one of the camps where our attackers had camped therefore we started surrounding the house and we got into the house or family or homestead. We started shooting at the person who appeared at the door.
MR GUMBI: There was one person standing outside of the door, one of us shot at the person. That person wasn't seriously wounded, he managed to run away and we managed to get into the house or the homestead. When we arrived inside the house we found it was dark, we couldn't see clearly, therefore myself I don't remember well, it looks like we were competing to fight or attack the people because we were many. However, I took part. There was one person who was injured, I don't remember well, but when I found out later it was Gogo, it was Grandma maDlamini.
We were over 60 in number and I don't remember exactly. However, we grouped into two, the others had to attack one of the homesteads nearby. We injured one of the aunts and a child and we, after attacking that house, we continued to the other houses which had the light switched on because we thought there might be people inside these houses. We were of the view that there wasn't anybody in those houses because it was rumoured that they had to leave that place. All we knew that is that if ever we find a house with lights on there must be people inside.
We continued to the next homestead, that was the Kunene family. The other group have already attacked that house so we passed that house and we went to another place called Matafene. There we found some aunties in the bushes. We met them as we were passing. One of the aunts was carrying a child, or had a child with her. We told her to run away and she ran away towards the bushes. Again we continued and we met other people on the way. And I also suspect that the one that we met was also injured by the other group.
As we started arguing with the other group that they shouldn't take women and we had to take the young child and save her, however, we differed in opinion. We took the young child together with us and continued and we left the child at the Dlamini family and told them to take the child to court the next day.
We continued to Mtolo's family. Mr Mtolo is an IFP member at that place. He is also the one who informed us as to where the other people were camping. He was referring to the ANC members. He said we are going to find them at Zwandile Mbongo's home. We also surrounded the house. While surrounding the house there was some shooting from inside the house. I suspected that they saw us and we also entered the house while shooting and I was also in possession of a 9mm, a shotgun and also a spear. There were some other people who were carrying big guns and one of them is my co-accused in the trial was also carrying a big firearm and most of us were armed.
We entered the house and we started shooting. When we got there it was this house, a rondavel, and we started shooting through the windows and we injured a lot of people there. I think there were four, but some of them survived.
After that incident we continued to the Tosi family. This Tosi man used to regard himself as an IFP leader in that particular area. We arrived at Tosi's place and we had to pass his place because we ran out of ammunition and we thought he could help us with ammunition. He gave us about eight rounds of ammunition and we continued to a place called Tshlahle. I don't know this family name but the place was known by the name of Tshlahle.
We arrived at one homestead, the lights were on, people were drinking in that family. We shot one man and he died and also some other people whom we met on the way. After attacking that particular homestead of Tshlahle people who came towards their house were also attacked by us and they died instantly.
We continued and we were going back. When passing Matafene on our way back we passed the first homestead we found women, we didn't do anything to them. However, on the second family we found women, we injured those women, I don't remember the number, there might have been four or five, so we were arguing at the time and we were not of the same view among our group. Most people survived, they knew that we were divided at the time, I mean within us, our camp, some people said we shouldn't kill women, others insisted that we should kill them. After that we went back home and that is how it ended.
MR GUMBI: We decided to go and attack them because we knew we were not going to sleep because most of our people had been killed at that time and we decided that we should do something about it to protect ourselves.
MR GUMBI: As I have decided to make an application for amnesty it is because I am not happy with what happened. It was not my intention, however, I find myself in that situation. That is why I have made an application for amnesty.
MR GUMBI: I would like to say to the victims that as I am here before the Commission I am here so that they must know as to who attacked and injured their relatives. They shall know that it's me and that I regret that I injured or killed their relatives. It was not my intention to injure or kill them and I ask for forgiveness.
MR GUMBI: The reason I insist on is that as we were many we were different in viewing things so we also had some arguments as to what should be done and what should not be done, and when we were attacking it wasn't clear whether some of the victims were male or female, however it was discovered after the attack that it was a female or male. However when we found that it was women myself personally I wasn't involved in attacking such people. As I said we couldn't clearly distinguish between male and females at that time, because when we come to a person we all rush towards an attacking and injuring the person, we were so many. This is the reason why I am here because I didn't intend to harm or injure females.
MR GUMBI: As I have explained we were not of the same conscience and we were divided. I don't know how to put it before the Commission but we have different views among our colleagues and friends. I would say we were different and we were arguing and were trying to stop each other from committing some other acts.
MR GUMBI: While we were running around trying to attack them we were not that secure. We were also afraid that they might attack us. Therefore we ran towards - I mean surrounding the houses with firearms and we will shoot when we enter the place.
MR GUMBI: As I have explained before the knowledge as to whether women were inside was not in our mind because we thought women won't be around and we won't find them and we were surprised when we found that there had been women.
MR GUMBI: I will persist and say that when we attacked we were also demoralised and we were not sure whether there were women inside those houses, we were not sure whether there will be women. We were just afraid and surprised when we found that there were women, and that's why we came here to ask for amnesty. It also surprised us that there were women.
MR GUMBI: They attacked us first. They killed a child, a grandmother and one mother. So it was so easy so when they attacked us they could injure anyone, however, when we attacked it was the first time that women were injured.
MR GUMBI: I was hurt and I couldn't foresee a good future because of the rate at which they were killing us. It looked as though there were people who were not morally conscious therefore I decided to join and fight for revenge.
MR GUMBI: I would like to explain before the Commission that I would like to give the Commission a very clear picture about our area. It was a very violent area and people were fighting each other. Some of our fellow members died and that destroyed our morale and our conscious. I am trying to give a picture that will help the Commission at the end of the hearing that there was intense fighting although there wasn't a very good reason as to why people should fight because they were ANC members and IFP members live in one place. And that's all I want to tell the Commission.
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Gumbi you have stated that the ANC people attacked you, I think they attacked you first at which attack a grandmother and a mother was killed, when was this attack, when did it take place?
MR GUMBI: I was just explaining as to how many people - when I was asked whether children were killed I was saying that the grandmothers died before. It wasn't on that particular day. On the date we were attacked only one person was injured and that's what gave us a reason to go and attack them.
MR DE KLERK: Just lastly, prior to this attack, please just explain to the Commission what happened prior to the attack, how did it come to that you decided to attack? Where did you group? Who made the decisions? Please be specific about that.
MR GUMBI: When they attacked us we used to blow a whistle so that people could come together. When we blow the whistles we normally meet because we knew people are going to attack us. We are not expecting them but after that, after the whistles were blown we guarded, Bangi came with a view that we should attack them. He too was not the only one. It was a popular feeling among us that we have to attack them but he's the one who came with the view.
MR GUMBI: I wasn't injured. I heard gunshots and I started running and I was blowing a whistle calling other people and I wasn't injured. When they came to attack they entered one part of the area where they injured a person. They were coming as people who were surrounding the place at the same time.
MR RATHMAN: Now you blew the whistle at about three o'clock and you waited until it was dark before you started your attack, during that period did you make any attempt to contact your leaders to find out what your instructions should be?
MR GUMBI: We didn't have time to think about that because we were so demoralised and that didn't come to our mind and so many things have been destroyed we didn't have time to sit down and try to contact people at their homes, different homes to help us because we knew that our leaders were not going to allow us to attack. Maybe they were going to try and cool us down so we tried to use their very same method to fight back.
MR GUMBI: Which people? There were different instances. One incident took place at Ntowelendeni and the other one at Nhlahla, I want to know specifically which people you are referring to, whether you are referring to Madoda people?
MR GUMBI: No we didn't come across cars. We made sure that we have to jump the road and enter the other side. We were not travelling along the road because we just crossed the road so we didn't meet cars on the way.
MR GUMBI: It wasn't decided, but it was an instant kind of an attack so we couldn't decide as to who we shall attack from the beginning. It just happened simultaneously or momentarily so when we were shown as to who they were we just continued to attack. If he happened to have indicated or show us another place we could have just run and attacked the place.
MR GUMBI: As I have already explained it's difficult to explain. I am saying that we are competing, each of us when we see a person we are competing to attack that particular person. Sometimes you couldn't even manage to get near the person to strike or hit and sometimes you were able to be near to be able to attack, so therefore I can't explain.
MR GUMBI: I would say it's both because as I've explained people in the ANC and IFP people were fighting in that area, they attacked us and we had to attack them again. It was a confused situation and we were fighting. The organisations were fighting and even the younger children, if you can ask them they know that we were fighting.
CHAIRPERSON: I recollect you saying a short time ago, well let me get my note, you said you didn't have time to consider contacting your leaders. You knew that your leaders were not going to attack, they would try to cool you down, is that so?
MR GUMBI: It's not the IFP policies or the intention that we should attack or fire back, it was something that happened and we see that the only thing we do is we have to fight back and we couldn't contact our leaders to tell us what to do.
MR GUMBI: I don't know that it is our policy or principle that we should pay a revenge if we are attacked, however it was up to us, the followers, to see what to do if we face such an incident. If we thought it was necessary to fight back we had to fight back but I won't say it was the organisation's policy to pay revenge. However I might not know whether it was.
MR GUMBI: Things started to intensify during 1991 as we were fighting in my area it was an IFP area, when I started getting seriously involved it was 1991 because people were fighting all over the area. I can't explain the IFP policies. All I knew is that I grew out of the IFP wing as a Zulu person and all I knew that we used to follow the Zulu traditions within the IFP.
MR GUMBI: Truly I would say I won't be able to explain as to what we wanted to achieve, but I would say that we were doing what we did as a way of paying revenge. We didn't have any specific thing that we wanted to achieve because we were just protecting ourselves as we were injured.
MR GUMBI: This particular question at the time I didn't know exactly what we are going to achieve, however, I knew that we were trying to protect ourselves at the particular time. And I knew that when fight for the struggle maybe we are going to achieve something and I don't know whether the attack was going to benefit the people or the organisation.
MR GUMBI: The reason why I made an application for amnesty it was put clear that it should be strictly clear whether we did it under political influence so I put my application as an IFP member and I knew that what I did was towards the ANC members and I knew that we were fighting at that time as a political organisations. That's why I thought there was a political motive in that way.
MR GUMBI: I don't think that when we were attacking each other we could systematically specify so and so, so much number of people should be injured when we attack because we were just attacking and we didn't have a target or a quota which we had to achieve by killing like when you kill two on the other side two must be killed on the other side. So we were just fighting.
MR GUMBI: I couldn't see the people while they were shooting because I was running. However I saw people, a group of people shooting. And I should specifically mention that this wasn't the first time. There were repeated incidents of attacks.
MR GUMBI: Yes I would say it was one, these very same people because they will attack and the situation will arise where we end up, there is a confrontation and we have to fight each other and that person was near my home.
MR GUMBI: Yes I got the question clear. I didn't report any of the cases to the police because specifically to this particular incident we didn't have much time to go and report the matter because the way to the police station you have to go and pass the very same people whom we were attacking.
MR GUMBI: I didn't report any of the incidences because I was still a child at that time. There might have been people who were old enough, the headman, who could have gone to the police to report that these people are getting attacked. I personally didn't report.
MR GUMBI: I won't give a very clear answer but I will say children were also involved but I won't be able to tell whether their ages were under 10 but they were young children and also some other people were involved too. They were mixed during the attacks.
MR GUMBI: The reason why young children were killed is something that I don't understand even now and I don't think I was of the view that children should be killed because I know that young children don't know anything about politics or what is happening in the community.
MR GUMBI: I won't know as to why women were killed. However, as I explained that we were different as to how we perceive things or the struggle. Some people wanted to kill women. I personally, I don't know why they decided to do that because I personally I couldn't do it. Even if I might have done it I would have done it against my conscience.
CHAIRPERSON: And I see from the indictment that among those killed were Thlangisile Happy Dlamini, a 20 year-old woman; Malu Els Dlamini, a 16 year-old girl and Emily Dlamini a 60 year-old woman, did you know these people?
MR GUMBI: My continued involvement in the attack was not with the aim of killing women, I didn't intend to kill women. The reason why I joined in the attack it was because I knew we had to go and kill those ANC males who were fighting against us and not women and I would like to insist that when women got attacked it was by mistake, we didn't intend to attack them. And as I have explained we didn't have the same conscience with regards to whether we should kill women or not.
CHAIRPERSON: That's precisely what I am asking you. You knew that at the very first place you had attacked women had been attacked. You knew that other people with you were engaged in attacking and killing women, I want to know why you continued to take part. You have explained in your evidence that you were told it was not compulsory. You only had to do it if you wanted to, if you were a volunteer. Why did you continue after you knew that the people with you were brutally killing women, young women and injuring old women?
MR GUMBI: At the time when we met to discuss the attack I didn't know that some of us were going to kill women. What I know from the beginning is that we are going to attack the men and if I knew that we were going to attack women from the beginning I wasn't going to be involved. This attack on women happened ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well that is what I am asking. Why when you discovered women were being attacked at the very first place you attacked did you not go home and stop, why did you, yourself, continue once you knew this was going to happen?
MR GUMBI: It was impossible for me to go back home or retreat because it was going to look like - I was thinking that if I go back it was going to be impossible, I was going to be afraid to go back alone because I have to pass most of the places which were enemy areas.
CHAIRPERSON: You know that of the 26 counts of murder and attempted murder that you faced, 13 of them involved women and children, did you know that? At your trial half the people who were killed or injured were women or children and you were there the whole time, is that so?
ADV POTGIETER: Mr Gumbi just in follow-up to what Judge Wilson has asked you, at the trial Judith Dlamini gave evidence and she had said that after the stabbing had taken place in the Dlamini home you in fact remarked to those with you that they could now leave and thereafter they left, have you got any comment on that?
MR GUMBI: I don't know that. Referring to the statement which she said before the Court I don't agree with it because in most of the statement she was lying. I don't remember that and I don't know that I ever mentioned that we can go. If we can come back to the statement which she gave to the Court she said I wasn't armed or in possession of anything but I knew I was armed.
MR GUMBI: I didn't see them, however the young children were also involved in the fightings because they were grown up. I couldn't see or recognise them because when they were shooting at us we were running and I couldn't identify them as to whether they were Dlamini family people. But I would say they were involved in some of the fighting.
MR GUMBI: That was not the reason. As I said the reason why we had to enter the Dlamini family is because we saw one young man standing outside of the Dlamini family so we thought maybe this is one of the camps where the ANC members stay and we didn't know that there were women inside, as I have explained before.
MR GUMBI: We saw this man standing outside. We thought maybe he is standing outside to see what is going on as we knew that people when they are camping they stay inside their houses. We were surprised when we got into the house only to find that there were women.
MR GUMBI: When all this happened it just happened and unfortunately I wasn't the one who was in charge of the people who were attacking. Even if I have retreated or went back home the others could have continued and attacked the people. Since they saw the person standing outside they thought there were people inside and they continue attacking. It was a continuing kind of an incident.
MR GUMBI: At the time of our court case all the evidence that was given because the court was against me, but now I am here to tell what I know, so I can't say things which I didn't see if I didn't see them. I can't say that I've seen it if I didn't see anything.
MR GUMBI: That's my view, but those who committed these acts against the women they intended to do that, but because personally myself I am against that I don't think people of a right conscience could kill women and children.
MR GUMBI: As I am explaining I am the one who got arrested in connection with all the incidences. I am saying that personally I didn't see the reason why we had to injure women. I was there, as I have explained and we were arguing and different in views from the other members.
MR GUMBI: I can't know them there were many, we were many people. However, one of them whom I knew was from the Mthembu family whose mother - he was one of the persons whose mother was killed, he was Sced Mthembu.
MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Gumbi then it would mean that the unfortunate mistake, unjustifiable deaths will relate to count 1 up to count 6, people who died therein, that you cannot justify? That is on page 39 of the pagination for the convenience of the members. Count 1 to 6 those are unjustified, those cannot be politically motivated. Would you like me to read out to you the names of the people I am talking about?
MR MPSHE: On Count 1 it is the killing of a female person, Happy Dlamini aged 20. Count 2, Malu Elsie Dlamini, aged 16, another female. Count 3, Emily Dlamini aged 60, another female. Count 5, Mildred Kunene a 51 year-old, another female. And Count 6, Patricia Ncwabe a nine year-old, another female. Those you said they are mistakes, they shouldn't have happened?
MR GUMBI: No, they were not injured on that particular day, it was another incident of attack where Bekani Nkunu was injured. However one of our family members got injured in one of the attacks before the particular one we are talking about.
MR GUMBI: That's not part of the revenge because it wasn't specifically directed to me, I mean the attack, I won't call it a family fight, it was something that was directed to the whole community, therefore as a member of the community I had to take part in the fight because there was a fight and maybe if there wasn't any fighting I wasn't going to find myself in this situation.
MR GUMBI: We did what we did as followers, there wasn't anything that we are going to do because we had to fight to protect our community, therefore we did it personally, including myself, but with a reason. I didn't just start up the fighting, attack them.
MR GUMBI: I would say, as I have just mentioned Sadamo, he also gave us instruction but however we also as a community also we were of the same view that we should attack back. However, if someone will come with a view we will follow that view if it was verified and we had to do what we had to do. In other words nobody sent me to go and do it. It was just because of the view the one person came up that we should go and fight back.
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Gumbi I think you have repeatedly stated that no one sent you to attack on this particular occasion, but you have also stated that there were repeated incidents of attack in Richmond, were these brought to the leadership of the IFP, these repeated incidents of attack?
MR GUMBI: I think we did report these issues because Vezi and Majosi also talked about these because those were people who were in contact with the offices and the courts so they should have reported the matter. The situation was in such a way that the whole issue have to be reported and known. I am saying there were people who killing IFP members which had to go to court and nothing was done to them. I would say many cases were reported to court but nothing happened.
MS KHAMPEPE: But what was the attitude of the IFP leadership regarding those attacks, during the meetings that you attended as IFP supporters where the attacks against your members were discussed, was there any particular attitude adopted by the leadership about what you had to do as members of IFP in the event of an attack by the ANC people?
MR GUMBI: At the time of the attacks the situation was so tense even if we didn't like violence but we couldn't stand it. People were killed on both sides. Their people were killed too and they were fighting back and we were fighting so it was an uncontrollable situation.
MS KHAMPEPE: You are not responding to my question. I want to know whether there was an attitude adopted by the IFP leadership regarding the repeated incidents of attack against IFP members by ANC people? You must have attended meetings where this issue was discussed by the leadership?
MR GUMBI: At meetings when we discussed the situation, I don't know exactly what they were talking about, but it became clear that people were not happy about the situation, that people were being killed, I don't know if I do understand your question very well. The situation wasn't that good and we hated it because people were getting killed.
MS KHAMPEPE: What was the advice that you got from the IFP leadership concerning these repeated incidents of attacks? Were you not advised to also take up arms against attacks by alleged members of the ANC? Were you not advised to do that by your leadership?
MR GUMBI: I can't say we were advised to do anything, however, when we had meetings we were told that we don't have to attack these people, however if they attack us we have to fight back to protect ourselves. They were just telling us that we shouldn't start the fight by attacking them. However, if they attack us we should protect ourselves by fighting back.
MR GUMBI: We were not instigated to attack or encouraged to fight back but it was to protect ourselves, the community when they attack us. We had to protect ourselves because there was nothing we could do, but we were not encouraged to start and attack.
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Gumbi what I am asking is who gave you the 9mm firearm? Do you have a name that you wish to give us, if you don't wish to disclose the name you just have to tell us that you are uncomfortable in having to disclose the name of the person.
MR GUMBI: I get you very well. I can't mention the name of a person whom I don't know. I will explain as to how I acquired the firearm. I won't say anybody has given the firearm to me, however if there's a reason where I had to mention someone's name I will have to.
MR GUMBI: During February, at the beginning of the attacks people were coming to attack and before they had a meeting at school and there were children at home who were attending the Margot High School, they went to the meeting, we didn't know anything about the meeting, when they entered at the beginning of the attack one of them by the name Scejime happened to drop the gun because he was shot and he died. I didn't say, I can't say I get it there but I don't know whether it was directly from him because he was holding a big firearm, but I found it somewhere there.
MS KHAMPEPE: And do you know how soon it took the 80 or 60 people who gathered immediately after the ANC had attacked your stronghold, do you know how they managed to get the firearms that they used during the attack in question?
MR GUMBI: I don't know how they acquired those firearms. However, we just discovered that people were armed and we didn't know where they got the firearms. I can't really say they got them from a specific place.
CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to put one thing to you in the light of what you have just said to Ms Khampepe, she asked you about what guidance you got from your leadership, did you consider that your leadership had let you down?
"We saw ourselves in trouble because of our leaders. They did not teach us, their followers, the aims and objectives of the political parties. Instead of preaching the truth they allowed us to fight. It is well-known that these organisations, i.e. the IFP and the ANC have killed a lot of people. I think each one of them says they are in the struggle. If one organisation tries to kill another that leads to many unnecessary deaths".
MR GUMBI: Only when I am referring to a leader. I don't see any reason why we had to fight because if they did sit down and talk about the problems they could have resolved the issue and were not going to fight.
CHAIRPERSON: You see when Mr Rathman asked you some questions you said you didn't have time to consider contacting the leaders because you knew your leaders were not going to attack they would try to cool you down.
MR GUMBI: That's true. However, it becomes a bit difficult for me to explain. They were not going to agree that we should go and attack. However, while I was completing the amnesty application forms I personally stated that if the political leaders were able to stop this from the beginning we shouldn't have got into the situation where we had to fight.
"Were the acts committed in the execution of an order or on behalf or with the approval of an organisation, the organisation concerned, that is the IFP?"
"He expressly denied having taken any part in what he described as 'the fight'. He admitted that he stole one chair of a lounge suite. Such theft occurred at kraal 4/8".
MR GUMBI: I won't disagree with the Judge with regard to this statement and as a first-time offender when I was arrested I wasn't told anything. When I did my confession statement I didn't know anything and I admitted that I did that because I thought if I agree that I did that this case, which involved a lot of people will be separated from the murder counts, that they found the chair from me and that I did steal the chair, it's not true.
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Gumbi when Advocate Mpshe put a question to you as to why you committed the offence for which you are applying for amnesty your response was the reason you joined the attackers was in fact to attack the people who had attacked your home, do you recall saying that?
MR GUMBI: You mean they attacked our home? I didn't say that. I said my home was just above that particular area just next to where they attacked. They were not - the attack wasn't directed to our house. I am saying that I was at home on that particular day and I saw them attacking, but it wasn't a direct attack to our family.
MR GUMBI: I couldn't specifically identify the people who were attacking us. However, the people that we attacked it was an ANC area and there were people who were sometimes involved in the attack on our side.
MR GUMBI: During a fight it's so difficult to aim specifically to attack a particular person. We were many and we intended to attack ANC members whom we knew they stay in particular areas or places. Anyone who was an ANC member who happened to be in that particular place could have been attacked.
ADV POTGIETER: She says, the translation says you knew - the question is did you assume? You didn't see the people, you didn't identify them, did you assume because there was these fighting going on that it must have been ANC members or supporters that attacked your place that particular day?
MR GUMBI: They were ANC members, they were the people who started the fight, because if we can go back and investigate we can find out that it was the people, it was the ANC people who started the attacks. It's not what I assume, it's what I knew happened because I was there.
MR GUMBI: We couldn't know because when they attacked we couldn't go and identify as to where they come from because when they attack they just come from nowhere and start attacking and we couldn't identify them in that particular time. It was going to be difficult for anyone to identify them.
MR GUMBI: We didn't know exactly who attacked us but we knew that they were ANC members involved and where we knew there were ANC members we had to enter that particular place and attack them. There were so many people whom we didn't attack, we couldn't attack those families because there was no clear sign as to whether there were people inside or not.
MR GUMBI: Well it's not necessarily because it was an ANC area, it was because the people who attacked us stayed in that particular place and we were fighting against them. We couldn't just go and attack them because they were ANC because they have a right to be ANC members.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE: With the permission of the Chairman, just one question Mr Chairman, just one. As a follow-up from what the Committee has asked you and you said you did not attack because the ANC people stayed there, you were attacking the people who had attacked you, do you remember that?
MR GUMBI: We were attacking people from that particular area, people who were also attacking us which people were ANC members. We didn't attack them because we are angry because it was an ANC area. We didn't attack because we hated the fact that they were ANC in that particular area. It is because we were fighting - it confuses me as to how to explain this.