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Amnesty Hearings

Type AMNESTY HEARINGS

Starting Date 28 July 1997

Location PIETERMARITZBURG

Day 1

Names MDUDUZI M GUMBI

Case Number 0350/96

CHAIRPERSON: This is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee in the Pietermaritzburg Town Hall on Monday 28 July 1997 to hear the application of M M Gumbi and R V Zuma.

I, Andrew Wilson, am presiding, and sitting with me is Ms Sisi Khampepe and Mr Denzil Potgieter.

Would counsel please notify their presences.

MR DE KLERK: As it pleases the Commission, I appear on behalf of both applicants. My name is Lourens de Klerk, attorney firm, Nel, Kotze and Van Dyk Attorneys, in Durban.

MR RATHMAN: May it please the Commission. I appear on behalf of the relatives of the victims. My name is Attorney Hugh Rathman from Richmond.

MR MPSHE: As it pleases the Committee I am Advocate J Mpshe representing the Amnesty Committee.

Mr Chairman and members of the Committee all parties are herein present including the victims. As indicated already Mr Rathman is representing all the victims who are herein present.

The first row in the hall consists of all victims. I am told by my learned, Mr van der Merwe, that the first applicant to be called or to testify will be M M Gumbi, matter no 0350/96. I will hand over to him.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that the political parties who are involved, or rather implicated in this matter, that is the Inkatha Freedom Party and the African National Congress are both aware of the hearing today?

MR DE KLERK: That is correct Mr Chairman. The IFP have been notified. They are quite well aware of this application.

Mr Chairman if I can just enquire regarding the process, will I go ahead to lead the evidence. Thank you.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR DE KLERK: As it pleases the Commission. Mr Gumbi is it correct that you were involved in an attack in 1991 in the Richmond area on the 23rd of June in which you were convicted by Judge Therion on the 27th of November 1992?

MR GUMBI: That is correct.

MR DE KLERK: Before we start with that specific incident, where were you born and where did you....?

MR GUMBI: I was born in Richmond at Mkobeni.

MR DE KLERK: Did you go to school?

MR GUMBI: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: What grade or standard did you reach at school?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you repeat the previous, we didn't hear the answer.

MR DE KLERK: I will Mr Chairman?

MR GUMBI: Up to Standard 8.

MR DE KLERK: Why did you leave school?

MR GUMBI: It was because there was fighting in Richmond and the schools were closed so therefore I couldn't go to school.

MR DE KLERK: How old were you approximately when you left school?

MR GUMBI: I was 19 years-old.

MR DE KLERK: What did you do then after you left school?

MR GUMBI: I would say that I started getting involved in the violence as there was violence in the area.

MR DE KLERK: Is it correct that you grew up as a traditional Zulu, that's meaning that you believed in the traditional values of the Zulu nation, that you believed in your forefather's spirits and so forth?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: Is it further correct that this was taught to you from a very early age?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: Can you quickly, in short, explain to the Commission what the general position was in Richmond during 1991 regarding the violence and so forth?

MR GUMBI: Yes I can explain.

MR DE KLERK: Go ahead.

MR GUMBI: During 1991 in Richmond violence erupted and it was somewhere around February when this started. People started fighting and violence was intensified. Somewhere during June 1991 on the 23rd there had been an attack on us at our area. People entered our area which was a low-lying area and they were coming from above and they shot at us and one person was shot and then we started running because we never expected to be attacked. However, we came back. When coming back the attackers ran away.

We stayed there and we gathered trying to find out as to how we are going to survive because we knew we are not going to be able to sleep. We sat and discussed. One of us by the name of Mbandla came with a view that we should pay revenge. However it was quickly said that we can do it voluntarily, we are not forced to join the revenge. Some people volunteered to go and attack, and I was one of them.

Myself and my fellow accused we arrived at the first home that was the Dlamini family and in front of the house there was a young boy standing there. When arriving there we suspected that the house might be one of the camps where our attackers had camped therefore we started surrounding the house and we got into the house or family or homestead. We started shooting at the person who appeared at the door.

MS KHAMPEPE: We would like to ask you to slow down because there are people who are trying to interpret for you therefore you should give them time to explain in full everything that you have to say.

MR GUMBI: Thanks, I will try. Can I continue?

MS KHAMPEPE: Yes you can continue.

MR GUMBI: There was one person standing outside of the door, one of us shot at the person. That person wasn't seriously wounded, he managed to run away and we managed to get into the house or the homestead. When we arrived inside the house we found it was dark, we couldn't see clearly, therefore myself I don't remember well, it looks like we were competing to fight or attack the people because we were many. However, I took part. There was one person who was injured, I don't remember well, but when I found out later it was Gogo, it was Grandma maDlamini.

We were over 60 in number and I don't remember exactly. However, we grouped into two, the others had to attack one of the homesteads nearby. We injured one of the aunts and a child and we, after attacking that house, we continued to the other houses which had the light switched on because we thought there might be people inside these houses. We were of the view that there wasn't anybody in those houses because it was rumoured that they had to leave that place. All we knew that is that if ever we find a house with lights on there must be people inside.

We continued to the next homestead, that was the Kunene family. The other group have already attacked that house so we passed that house and we went to another place called Matafene. There we found some aunties in the bushes. We met them as we were passing. One of the aunts was carrying a child, or had a child with her. We told her to run away and she ran away towards the bushes. Again we continued and we met other people on the way. And I also suspect that the one that we met was also injured by the other group.

As we started arguing with the other group that they shouldn't take women and we had to take the young child and save her, however, we differed in opinion. We took the young child together with us and continued and we left the child at the Dlamini family and told them to take the child to court the next day.

We continued to Mtolo's family. Mr Mtolo is an IFP member at that place. He is also the one who informed us as to where the other people were camping. He was referring to the ANC members. He said we are going to find them at Zwandile Mbongo's home. We also surrounded the house. While surrounding the house there was some shooting from inside the house. I suspected that they saw us and we also entered the house while shooting and I was also in possession of a 9mm, a shotgun and also a spear. There were some other people who were carrying big guns and one of them is my co-accused in the trial was also carrying a big firearm and most of us were armed.

We entered the house and we started shooting. When we got there it was this house, a rondavel, and we started shooting through the windows and we injured a lot of people there. I think there were four, but some of them survived.

After that incident we continued to the Tosi family. This Tosi man used to regard himself as an IFP leader in that particular area. We arrived at Tosi's place and we had to pass his place because we ran out of ammunition and we thought he could help us with ammunition. He gave us about eight rounds of ammunition and we continued to a place called Tshlahle. I don't know this family name but the place was known by the name of Tshlahle.

We arrived at one homestead, the lights were on, people were drinking in that family. We shot one man and he died and also some other people whom we met on the way. After attacking that particular homestead of Tshlahle people who came towards their house were also attacked by us and they died instantly.

We continued and we were going back. When passing Matafene on our way back we passed the first homestead we found women, we didn't do anything to them. However, on the second family we found women, we injured those women, I don't remember the number, there might have been four or five, so we were arguing at the time and we were not of the same view among our group. Most people survived, they knew that we were divided at the time, I mean within us, our camp, some people said we shouldn't kill women, others insisted that we should kill them. After that we went back home and that is how it ended.

MR DE KLERK: Would you just explain to the Commission in what area were you staying in Richmond?

MR GUMBI: I was staying at Mkobeni.

MR DE KLERK: Was that an IFP stronghold?

MR GUMBI: That's correct, an IFP stronghold.

MR DE KLERK: Is it correct that the ANC area bordered on that area?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: Which area is that, the ANC area?

MR GUMBI: It was Magoda which stretches up to Ndalene and Thabalendeni and also Thlahle, all those names I have mentioned. At Ndalene there were also a few IFP members.

MR DE KLERK: Who was the ANC leader during 1991 of the Richmond area?

MR GUMBI: It was Sifiso Nkabinde.

MR DE KLERK: Who was the IFP leader of that area?

MR GUMBI: It was Vezi, Paulus Vezi.

MR DE KLERK: Were you ever instructed by any of your political leaders to attack these people and kill them?

MR GUMBI: We were not given instructions by the leaders, it was our own view as the person Mfas Bangi(?) was just a normal person in the community, he was not our leader.

MR DE KLERK: Why did you 60 people decide to go and attack what you perceived as your enemy?

MR GUMBI: May you please repeat your question.

MR DE KLERK: Why did you 60 people, on that day, the 23rd of June 1991, why did you decide to go and attack the people?

MR GUMBI: We decided to go and attack them because we knew we were not going to sleep because most of our people had been killed at that time and we decided that we should do something about it to protect ourselves.

MR DE KLERK: So Mr Gumbi, if I understand you correctly, there were attacks on yourself and your community prior to the attack that you took part in?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: During your trial there were several accused, is that correct?

MR GUMBI: That is correct.

MR DE KLERK: And six of those accused were convicted?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: Do you know what happened to them?

MR GUMBI: I don't know. However, it was said that our evidence was not in correlation with each other.

MR DE KLERK: No, no, I accept that. Let me put it to you like this. Mr Jabulani Mbanjo, do you know where he is now?

MR GUMBI: He is at Ncomi Prison.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Sitembisho Mcunu do you know where he is now?

MR GUMBI: He is in Pietermaritzburg in prison.

MR DE KLERK: Sithole Zanile Mkhize?

MR GUMBI: At Ncomi Prison.

MR DE KLERK: Mafika Dlamini?

MR GUMBI: Westville Prison.

MR DE KLERK: Do you know of any of these prisoners that will be released or go on parole in the near future?

MR GUMBI: I don't know and I can't explain. All I know is that they received different sentences. I don't know.

MR DE KLERK: Is it correct that you have been in prison from when you were arrested and convicted in 1992 until now?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: How long of your sentence do you still have to serve?

MR GUMBI: I think it's nine years and I will be completing my fifth year on November this year, it means I am left with four years.

MR DE KLERK: How do you feel about this act that you were involved in? Do you think it was the right thing to do today?

MR GUMBI: As I have decided to make an application for amnesty it is because I am not happy with what happened. It was not my intention, however, I find myself in that situation. That is why I have made an application for amnesty.

MR DE KLERK: How old were you at the stage when this attack took place?

MR GUMBI: I was 19.

MR DE KLERK: Is there anything that you want to say to the victims of that attack today?

MR GUMBI: Yes I do.

MR DE KLERK: You can go ahead.

MR GUMBI: I would like to say to the victims that as I am here before the Commission I am here so that they must know as to who attacked and injured their relatives. They shall know that it's me and that I regret that I injured or killed their relatives. It was not my intention to injure or kill them and I ask for forgiveness.

MR DE KLERK: Why, during this attack, were there women and children injured and killed?

MR GUMBI: Please repeat the question.

MR DE KLERK: During this attack there were women and children injured and killed, why did that happen?

MR GUMBI: The reason I insist on is that as we were many we were different in viewing things so we also had some arguments as to what should be done and what should not be done, and when we were attacking it wasn't clear whether some of the victims were male or female, however it was discovered after the attack that it was a female or male. However when we found that it was women myself personally I wasn't involved in attacking such people. As I said we couldn't clearly distinguish between male and females at that time, because when we come to a person we all rush towards an attacking and injuring the person, we were so many. This is the reason why I am here because I didn't intend to harm or injure females.

CHAIRPERSON: One of the persons killed was a three year-old child, do you seriously say you couldn't distinguish between babies like that and grown men?

MR GUMBI: As I have explained we were not of the same conscience and we were divided. I don't know how to put it before the Commission but we have different views among our colleagues and friends. I would say we were different and we were arguing and were trying to stop each other from committing some other acts.

MR DE KLERK: Did this attack take place at night?

MR GUMBI: Yes it was from half past six until one.

MR DE KLERK: As the group that you were in attacked the houses, was it easy to identify targets or did you sometimes merely shoot indiscriminately at the houses?

MR GUMBI: While we were running around trying to attack them we were not that secure. We were also afraid that they might attack us. Therefore we ran towards - I mean surrounding the houses with firearms and we will shoot when we enter the place.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Gumbi when you did that didn't you foresee the possibility of children and women being present at the houses you were attacking?

MR GUMBI: As I have explained before the knowledge as to whether women were inside was not in our mind because we thought women won't be around and we won't find them and we were surprised when we found that there had been women.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew people lived in these houses, these were their homes.

MR GUMBI: Yes we knew, however, even the camps were around the homesteads, some homesteads were used as camps.

MS KHAMPEPE: Used as camps for what, to house women at half past six in the evening?

MR GUMBI: I mean camps of ANC members, they used to camp in some of the homesteads.

MS KHAMPEPE: But why were you not expecting to find women at half past six when you launched your attack? That is the question that I want to know.

MR GUMBI: Please repeat the question.

MS KHAMPEPE: Why did you not expect to find women at the houses which were attacked at half past six in the evening?

MR GUMBI: I will persist and say that when we attacked we were also demoralised and we were not sure whether there were women inside those houses, we were not sure whether there will be women. We were just afraid and surprised when we found that there were women, and that's why we came here to ask for amnesty. It also surprised us that there were women.

MR DE KLERK: During the attacks on your own people of your area, were there ever women injured or killed, children injured or killed at any stage?

MR GUMBI: Yes there were.

MR DE KLERK: Did this happen regularly during the attacks on each group on the other?

MR GUMBI: They attacked us first. They killed a child, a grandmother and one mother. So it was so easy so when they attacked us they could injure anyone, however, when we attacked it was the first time that women were injured.

MR DE KLERK: How did you feel after these people were attacked, your people have been attacked, how did you feel about that?

MR GUMBI: I was hurt and I couldn't foresee a good future because of the rate at which they were killing us. It looked as though there were people who were not morally conscious therefore I decided to join and fight for revenge.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of your people had been killed, can you give us an estimate?

MR GUMBI: There are many and I would say even now so many people were killed I can't explain how many but there were many, more than 200 people were killed.

MR DE KLERK: Is there anything else Mr Gumbi that you want to tell the Commission?

MR GUMBI: Yes I would like to explain a few things.

MR DE KLERK: Go ahead.

MR GUMBI: I would like to explain before the Commission that I would like to give the Commission a very clear picture about our area. It was a very violent area and people were fighting each other. Some of our fellow members died and that destroyed our morale and our conscious. I am trying to give a picture that will help the Commission at the end of the hearing that there was intense fighting although there wasn't a very good reason as to why people should fight because they were ANC members and IFP members live in one place. And that's all I want to tell the Commission.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Gumbi you have stated that the ANC people attacked you, I think they attacked you first at which attack a grandmother and a mother was killed, when was this attack, when did it take place?

MR GUMBI: There were two fights. As I've said it started during February. This happened during April. At that time where we had to open a case no one was killed, only one person was injured.

MS KHAMPEPE: I actually have it in my notes that when the attack took place for the first time a grandmother and a mother was killed, is that incorrect?

MR GUMBI: I was just explaining as to how many people - when I was asked whether children were killed I was saying that the grandmothers died before. It wasn't on that particular day. On the date we were attacked only one person was injured and that's what gave us a reason to go and attack them.

MS KHAMPEPE: But now when did this grandmother and the mother get killed, was it in April or February 1991?

MR GUMBI: It was somewhere February or March I am not sure as to which month.

MS KHAMPEPE: Was this your own grandmother?

MR GUMBI: No I will be lying.

MS KHAMPEPE: Is it a relative?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR DE KLERK: Just lastly, prior to this attack, please just explain to the Commission what happened prior to the attack, how did it come to that you decided to attack? Where did you group? Who made the decisions? Please be specific about that.

MR GUMBI: When they attacked us we used to blow a whistle so that people could come together. When we blow the whistles we normally meet because we knew people are going to attack us. We are not expecting them but after that, after the whistles were blown we guarded, Bangi came with a view that we should attack them. He too was not the only one. It was a popular feeling among us that we have to attack them but he's the one who came with the view.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is he, what does he do?

MR GUMBI: You mean Bangi?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR GUMBI: He's one of our brothers staying in our area. He wasn't doing anything. He passed away.

MR DE KLERK: Was he any leader figure of any sort?

MR GUMBI: He wasn't a leader he was just an ordinary citizen and he was a follower. He wasn't a leader. As I said Vezi was the leader, the induna or headman was Fanana Nzimande.

MR DE KLERK: Approximately how late were you attacked on that specific day the 23rd of June 1991?

MS KHAMPEPE: I think he - did you say how late or how long?

MR DE KLERK: At what time were you attacked when the whistles were blown, how late was it then?

MR GUMBI: I would say it was about three o'clock, between three and four, or half-past three.

MR DE KLERK: Is it correct that after this attack all the men stayed together there where you were called together by the whistles until the evening?

MR GUMBI: That's correct. We waited until it was dark so that we could enter.

MR DE KLERK: So if I understand you correctly your retaliation or revenge attack was a few hours after you and your group was attacked?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he attacked? He told us, as far as I understand him to say, he heard a whistle blowing so he went and gathered with the others. He had made no mention at all of an attack on him.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Gumbi will you please just explain to the Commission how the attack took place on your group, were you personally involved in that attack, who was involved?

MR GUMBI: I took part in the attack. I was one of the attackers as I am here before the Commission. Maybe I don't understand the question. As I am here I was one of the attackers.

MR DE KLERK: No that - at three o'clock the IFP were attacked, your group were attacked is that correct?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: Were you personally involved in that or how did you know about that attack?

MS KHAMPEPE: Can I interpose Mr de Klerk. When you were getting attacked by the ANC members in your area where were you at that time when you were being attacked by the ANC members?

MR GUMBI: I would say our home is at the border and I was at home. There are homesteads above and the other ones are the other side downwards and I was just at home.

MS KHAMPEPE: Were you there when the attack took place or were you injured or someone had seen you been injured?

MR GUMBI: I wasn't injured. I heard gunshots and I started running and I was blowing a whistle calling other people and I wasn't injured. When they came to attack they entered one part of the area where they injured a person. They were coming as people who were surrounding the place at the same time.

MS KHAMPEPE: You may proceed Mr de Klerk.

MR DE KLERK: Do you know of anybody from the IFP that was injured on that specific day?

MR GUMBI: There is one person who got injured.

MR DE KLERK: Did anybody die?

MR GUMBI: No, one person got injured, nobody died on that particular day.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE KLERK

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RATHMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman. The person who was injured when you were attacked, do you know the name of that person?

MR GUMBI: Yes I do.

MR RATHMAN: Who?

MR GUMBI: It was Bekani Mkhunu.

MR RATHMAN: Now you blew the whistle at about three o'clock and you waited until it was dark before you started your attack, during that period did you make any attempt to contact your leaders to find out what your instructions should be?

MR GUMBI: We couldn't contact our leaders because it was us we were fighting the war and the leaders were not involved.

MR RATHMAN: Did you not think that perhaps it would be wise to try and contact your leaders before doing anything?

MR GUMBI: We didn't have time to think about that because we were so demoralised and that didn't come to our mind and so many things have been destroyed we didn't have time to sit down and try to contact people at their homes, different homes to help us because we knew that our leaders were not going to allow us to attack. Maybe they were going to try and cool us down so we tried to use their very same method to fight back.

MR RATHMAN: Now this attack took place at Ncobeni is that right, which borders Magoda?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: Did you attack any houses in Magoda at all?

MR GUMBI: Please repeat the question.

MR RATHMAN: Did you attack any houses in Magoda?

MR GUMBI: I know the place as Towlendeni, that is the place that we attacked. We stretched to Ndaleni and Nthlahla.

MR RATHMAN: How did you travel on that night, did you go on foot or by vehicle?

MR GUMBI: We were on foot, we were getting to the houses through the passages until, we went through until Towlendeni.

MR RATHMAN: Did you not use any vehicles at all?

MR GUMBI: We didn't use cars if I have to say the truth.

MR RATHMAN: Approximately how far was it from Ncobeni to the place where the people were killed, or the places where people were killed?

MR GUMBI: I will say it's approximately three kilometres but I am not sure.

MR RATHMAN: Did you say the name of the man who suggested you get revenge was Umbanthlwa, is that correct?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: And he is now dead?

MR GUMBI: Yes he passed away. We heard he died some few months ago.

MR RATHMAN: A few months ago or some years ago?

MR GUMBI: Months.

MR RATHMAN: Do you know Ndaleni well, Ndaleni and Magoda?

MR GUMBI: I know Magoda very well. I know Ndaleni but not that much, but I know the place. It's a place which is about 30 minutes from Ncobeni on foot.

MR RATHMAN: And do you know many of the people at Ndaleni?

MR GUMBI: I don't know many people, I just know a few people there.

MR RATHMAN: I see in your application you say that you didn't know the names of the people, the victims of the attack, is that correct?

MR GUMBI: The people whom we attacked were not known to me. However, when we were in court I discovered there was Tembi Mcqunu who was one of the persons I knew.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you also know Judith Dlamini?

MR GUMBI: Yes.

MR RATHMAN: ... to me that you knew these people and where they lived.

MR GUMBI: Which people? There were different instances. One incident took place at Ntowelendeni and the other one at Nhlahla, I want to know specifically which people you are referring to, whether you are referring to Madoda people?

MR RATHMAN: The first attack, I think, the first people you attacked you said were at the Dlamini home.

MR GUMBI: Yes. Yes I knew them very well. We used to play soccer nearby, near their place, and they also knew me.

MR RATHMAN: And you attacked that home?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: And you went on to the home of a Mr Mtolo, is that correct?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: An IFP member?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: Did he then give you directions as to which places you should go to?

MR GUMBI: As I explained he is the person who directed us that there were people at the Ncbongwa house.

MR RATHMAN: This Mtolo man what was his other name?

MR GUMBI: Sadam Mtolo.

MR RATHMAN: Is he still alive?

MR GUMBI: I think so, but I am not sure because I met him long ago.

MR RATHMAN: Why did you go to his house?

MR GUMBI: You mean his house?

MR RATHMAN: Yes.

MR GUMBI: I went there as a person whom I knew and we knew that he was inside that house and he was one of our members.

MR RATHMAN: Was he a senior member in the IFP?

MR GUMBI: He was just an ordinary member, he didn't occupy any position.

MR RATHMAN: Did he accompany you at all?

MR GUMBI: He didn't.

MR RATHMAN: How far from his house was Zwandile Mbongwe's house?

MR GUMBI: It's near. I would say it is approximately a kilometre but it's just near. I can't give an exact explanation. They were neighbours.

MR RATHMAN: Did you go on foot from Mtolo's to Zwandile Mbongwe's place?

MR GUMBI: We went there on foot because it's near.

MR RATHMAN: Were there any vehicles driving around that you hear that night?

MR GUMBI: You mean driven by Mr Mtolo?

MR RATHMAN: By anybody, on those roads there. Did you see any vehicles?

MR GUMBI: No we didn't come across cars. We made sure that we have to jump the road and enter the other side. We were not travelling along the road because we just crossed the road so we didn't meet cars on the way.

MR RATHMAN: How big was the group of you that went from Mtolo's to Mbongwe's house?

MR GUMBI: We were over 60 in number, we were many.

MR RATHMAN: Had it been decided to kill any particular people on that night?

MR GUMBI: It wasn't decided, but it was an instant kind of an attack so we couldn't decide as to who we shall attack from the beginning. It just happened simultaneously or momentarily so when we were shown as to who they were we just continued to attack. If he happened to have indicated or show us another place we could have just run and attacked the place.

MR RATHMAN: You weren't directed or you didn't perhaps agree to kill any particular people, aim for any particular people?

MR GUMBI: People we wanted to kill were ANC members, people we were fighting against, the people who were attacking us, and those were male members of the ANC.

MR RATHMAN: You see one of the victims had, I believe, something like 30 stab wounds in him. Could you explain how such a thing could happen in your attack?

MR GUMBI: As I have already explained it's difficult to explain. I am saying that we are competing, each of us when we see a person we are competing to attack that particular person. Sometimes you couldn't even manage to get near the person to strike or hit and sometimes you were able to be near to be able to attack, so therefore I can't explain.

MR RATHMAN: Mr Chairman I think it's about quarter past 11, I don't know if it will be a convenient time to adjourn?

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct)

MR RATHMAN: The house of Mzwandile Bongwa that you attacked, can you describe this house? Was it a block house or mud house, thatched, whatever?

MR GUMBI: It looks like a flat.

MR RATHMAN: Was it made of blocks or of mud?

MR GUMBI: I won't know because I didn't get a chance to be near the house.

MR RATHMAN: Did you not go into that house?

MR GUMBI: We entered the house because there were people inside.

MR RATHMAN: Now you say that none of your leaders were present on that day, how far was the place where you met after the whistle blew from the house of your Chief Nzimande?

MR GUMBI: Which Chief.

MR RATHMAN: What was the name of your Chief, sorry, could you tell me, your Chief?

MR GUMBI: It was Dlamini.

MR RATHMAN: From Chief Dlamini, sorry.

MR GUMBI: Can I just briefly explain. The Chief in charge at the moment is Dlamini. At that time it was Chief Nzwandile Majosi. I think this will explain the whole....

MR RATHMAN: Chief Majosi from Ndaleni, is that right?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: Now you say the attack went on until one o'clock, do you mean one o'clock in the morning, that very late at night?

MR GUMBI: I am not sure exactly if it was one. I am just think, or suspect it was one, but it was after 12, I didn't say it was exactly one, I said it was somewhere about one o'clock.

MR RATHMAN: Now was that when you got home or when you stopped attacking people?

MR GUMBI: As we went to different places, we went to different places, that's what I am trying to say.

MR RATHMAN: And what I want to know is how long did this whole operation take, this whole attack in which you were involved?

MR GUMBI: I will not know the exact time because we were not writing anything down as to the particulars concerning time.

MR RATHMAN: Now you say that none of your political leaders were involved in this?

MR GUMBI: Yes I do repeat it's true. There wasn't any leader who was involved at the time.

MR RATHMAN: And yet you are applying for amnesty because you say this was a political matter?

MR GUMBI: Yes, I think so.

MR RATHMAN: Was it perhaps not just a case of personal revenge then?

MR GUMBI: I would say it's both because as I've explained people in the ANC and IFP people were fighting in that area, they attacked us and we had to attack them again. It was a confused situation and we were fighting. The organisations were fighting and even the younger children, if you can ask them they know that we were fighting.

MR RATHMAN: Thank you Sir.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RATHMAN

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE: Mr Gumbi as you have already testified that there were no instructions given to you by the leaders, can you now tell as to whether you acted on behalf of the IFP?

MR GUMBI: This question confuses me. I would say I did it because I was an IFP member.

CHAIRPERSON: I recollect you saying a short time ago, well let me get my note, you said you didn't have time to consider contacting your leaders. You knew that your leaders were not going to attack, they would try to cool you down, is that so?

MR GUMBI: Yes I think so. They were not going to just say go and attack. Our leader wasn't going to give us such an instruction.

MR MPSHE: So that would mean that you did what you did out of your own volition and not to represent or to further the interests of IFP?

MR GUMBI: It's not the IFP policies or the intention that we should attack or fire back, it was something that happened and we see that the only thing we do is we have to fight back and we couldn't contact our leaders to tell us what to do.

MR MPSHE: Are you saying that it is not the policy of IFP to fight back?

MR GUMBI: I don't know that it is our policy or principle that we should pay a revenge if we are attacked, however it was up to us, the followers, to see what to do if we face such an incident. If we thought it was necessary to fight back we had to fight back but I won't say it was the organisation's policy to pay revenge. However I might not know whether it was.

MR MPSHE: How long had you been a member of the IFP, on the day of the incident?

MR GUMBI: Things started to intensify during 1991 as we were fighting in my area it was an IFP area, when I started getting seriously involved it was 1991 because people were fighting all over the area. I can't explain the IFP policies. All I knew is that I grew out of the IFP wing as a Zulu person and all I knew that we used to follow the Zulu traditions within the IFP.

MR MPSHE: Mr Gumbi I will repeat my question. On the day of the attack how long had you been a member of the IFP, that's all that I want to know?

MR GUMBI: I was already an IFP member. I can't remember the exact date. Even before things started our parents were IFP members. I started in 1991.

MR MPSHE: Did you in the past attend any meeting or gathering of the IFP?

MR GUMBI: Yes during 1991.

MR MPSHE: Did you hold any position in the leadership?

MR GUMBI: No I didn't hold any position, I was just a follower.

MR MPSHE: Now when you joined in the attack and killed the people that were killed and injured, what actually did you seek to achieve?

MR GUMBI: Truly I would say I won't be able to explain as to what we wanted to achieve, but I would say that we were doing what we did as a way of paying revenge. We didn't have any specific thing that we wanted to achieve because we were just protecting ourselves as we were injured.

MR MPSHE: So if I understand you well by saying that you didn't seek to achieve anything but to protect yourself. There was no political change that you envisaged in your attack, am I correct?

MR GUMBI: I don't think we are going to achieve anything politically by killing ANC members, that's my view.

MR MPSHE: And taking your view further, when you decided and took arms and went to attack and you did attack you didn't seem to achieve anything political?

MR GUMBI: This particular question at the time I didn't know exactly what we are going to achieve, however, I knew that we were trying to protect ourselves at the particular time. And I knew that when fight for the struggle maybe we are going to achieve something and I don't know whether the attack was going to benefit the people or the organisation.

MR MPSHE: Now from - as you have said, what makes you say that the acts committed by yourself were politically motivated?

MR GUMBI: The reason why I made an application for amnesty it was put clear that it should be strictly clear whether we did it under political influence so I put my application as an IFP member and I knew that what I did was towards the ANC members and I knew that we were fighting at that time as a political organisations. That's why I thought there was a political motive in that way.

MR MPSHE: Will I be correct Mr Gumbi if I said to you that the issue of the acts being politically motivated came into your mind after the attacks were made?

MR GUMBI: I won't agree with that.

MR MPSHE: On the day of the incident how many of your people were killed?

MR GUMBI: On that particular day I said one person in our camp was injured, he didn't die.

MR MPSHE: I see. One person was injured and you went out and killed close to 12 people, as against one injured, do you find that to be fair?

MR GUMBI: I don't think that when we were attacking each other we could systematically specify so and so, so much number of people should be injured when we attack because we were just attacking and we didn't have a target or a quota which we had to achieve by killing like when you kill two on the other side two must be killed on the other side. So we were just fighting.

MR MPSHE: You testified that on this day your attackers, the people who started attacking you first attacked you at about three and four p.m. am I right?

MR GUMBI: Yes I said so.

MR MPSHE: And you saw these people?

MR GUMBI: I couldn't see the people while they were shooting because I was running. However I saw people, a group of people shooting. And I should specifically mention that this wasn't the first time. There were repeated incidents of attacks.

MR MPSHE: Was it repeated incidents of attacks by the same people?

MR GUMBI: Yes I would say it was one, these very same people because they will attack and the situation will arise where we end up, there is a confrontation and we have to fight each other and that person was near my home.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you report any of these attacks to the Police Force?

MR GUMBI: People who were involved in such incidents did report the matter to the Police because the Police knew about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well were you involved in any of these incidents? Did you report them?

MR GUMBI: Can you repeat the question please?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you involved in any of these incidents and did you report them?

MR GUMBI: To report where, where to report such incidents?

CHAIRPERSON: You have just said that the people involved reported them to the police, I am now asking you if you were a person involved and whether you reported to the police?

MR GUMBI: Yes I got the question clear. I didn't report any of the cases to the police because specifically to this particular incident we didn't have much time to go and report the matter because the way to the police station you have to go and pass the very same people whom we were attacking.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not asking you about the day in question, I am asking you about what you have said in evidence that this was not the first time, there were repeated incidents of attacks.

MR GUMBI: I didn't report any of the incidences because I was still a child at that time. There might have been people who were old enough, the headman, who could have gone to the police to report that these people are getting attacked. I personally didn't report.

MR MPSHE: Amongst your attackers were there children?

MR GUMBI: Yes there were youth.

MR MPSHE: Were there children of age below 10?

MR GUMBI: I won't give a very clear answer but I will say children were also involved but I won't be able to tell whether their ages were under 10 but they were young children and also some other people were involved too. They were mixed during the attacks.

MR MPSHE: Is it possible for you to give us an estimate age-wise of children who were involved with your attackers?

MR GUMBI: You mean just to give an estimation?

MR MPSHE: Yes.

MR GUMBI: I will say from nine years upwards.

MR MPSHE: And you would not be able to give a reason why even a three year-old was killed, not so?

MR GUMBI: The reason why young children were killed is something that I don't understand even now and I don't think I was of the view that children should be killed because I know that young children don't know anything about politics or what is happening in the community.

MR MPSHE: Now in the group that attacked you were there women?

MR GUMBI: Are you referring to women who support them?

MR MPSHE: No, a group who was attacking you, did you see women amongst the group, people who were attacking you were they women?

MR GUMBI: I will be lying, I didn't see women.

MR MPSHE: Why were women killed then?

MR GUMBI: I won't know as to why women were killed. However, as I explained that we were different as to how we perceive things or the struggle. Some people wanted to kill women. I personally, I don't know why they decided to do that because I personally I couldn't do it. Even if I might have done it I would have done it against my conscience.

CHAIRPERSON: The first place you attacked, as I understand you, was the Dlamini's house, that was a place you knew well, you used to play football near there, is that correct?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I see from the indictment that among those killed were Thlangisile Happy Dlamini, a 20 year-old woman; Malu Els Dlamini, a 16 year-old girl and Emily Dlamini a 60 year-old woman, did you know these people?

MR GUMBI: Yes I knew Thlangisile because we attended the same school.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they live in this home that was the first one you attacked?

MR GUMBI: Yes, I think they were inside the house because those were people we discovered to be injured in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Two young girls killed and the old woman, an attempt made to kill her. The very first place you attacked at about 6:30, is that correct?

MR GUMBI: I am not sure about the time but it was becoming dark.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it was the first place you attacked, is that so?

MR GUMBI: Yes it was the Dlamini family.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if you didn't want to kill women, if you were opposed to it, why didn't you go home then, why did you go on taking part in these attacks for six or more hours?

MR GUMBI: My continued involvement in the attack was not with the aim of killing women, I didn't intend to kill women. The reason why I joined in the attack it was because I knew we had to go and kill those ANC males who were fighting against us and not women and I would like to insist that when women got attacked it was by mistake, we didn't intend to attack them. And as I have explained we didn't have the same conscience with regards to whether we should kill women or not.

CHAIRPERSON: That's precisely what I am asking you. You knew that at the very first place you had attacked women had been attacked. You knew that other people with you were engaged in attacking and killing women, I want to know why you continued to take part. You have explained in your evidence that you were told it was not compulsory. You only had to do it if you wanted to, if you were a volunteer. Why did you continue after you knew that the people with you were brutally killing women, young women and injuring old women?

MR GUMBI: At the time when we met to discuss the attack I didn't know that some of us were going to kill women. What I know from the beginning is that we are going to attack the men and if I knew that we were going to attack women from the beginning I wasn't going to be involved. This attack on women happened ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well that is what I am asking. Why when you discovered women were being attacked at the very first place you attacked did you not go home and stop, why did you, yourself, continue once you knew this was going to happen?

MR GUMBI: It was impossible for me to go back home or retreat because it was going to look like - I was thinking that if I go back it was going to be impossible, I was going to be afraid to go back alone because I have to pass most of the places which were enemy areas.

CHAIRPERSON: You know that of the 26 counts of murder and attempted murder that you faced, 13 of them involved women and children, did you know that? At your trial half the people who were killed or injured were women or children and you were there the whole time, is that so?

MR GUMBI: Yes with regard to the counts of which I was charged, that's what I know.

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Gumbi just in follow-up to what Judge Wilson has asked you, at the trial Judith Dlamini gave evidence and she had said that after the stabbing had taken place in the Dlamini home you in fact remarked to those with you that they could now leave and thereafter they left, have you got any comment on that?

MR GUMBI: I don't know that. Referring to the statement which she said before the Court I don't agree with it because in most of the statement she was lying. I don't remember that and I don't know that I ever mentioned that we can go. If we can come back to the statement which she gave to the Court she said I wasn't armed or in possession of anything but I knew I was armed.

ADV POTGIETER: The suggestion is here that you were playing a leading role.

MR GUMBI: I don't know, they might have perceived me as a leader but I wasn't a leader, I was just an ordinary follower, the same rank with the others.

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to correct something. She did not say you were unarmed, she said you were armed with an assegai.

MR GUMBI: She also stated that I didn't do anything during the attack.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you see any of the Dlamini's amongst the attackers that attacked you on that day?

MR GUMBI: I didn't see them, however the young children were also involved in the fightings because they were grown up. I couldn't see or recognise them because when they were shooting at us we were running and I couldn't identify them as to whether they were Dlamini family people. But I would say they were involved in some of the fighting.

ADV POTGIETER: So is that the reason why you entered the Dlamini home, because you were under the impression that they were involved in some of the fighting?

MR GUMBI: That was not the reason. As I said the reason why we had to enter the Dlamini family is because we saw one young man standing outside of the Dlamini family so we thought maybe this is one of the camps where the ANC members stay and we didn't know that there were women inside, as I have explained before.

ADV POTGIETER: You thought it was one of the camps but inside were four women, the boy who was standing at the door, you told us, ran away and you shot at him.

MR GUMBI: We saw this man standing outside. We thought maybe he is standing outside to see what is going on as we knew that people when they are camping they stay inside their houses. We were surprised when we got into the house only to find that there were women.

ADV POTGIETER: So you were surprised to find that there was only women but yet your group proceeded and you killed three of them, or two of them and attempted to kill another one?

MR GUMBI: When all this happened it just happened and unfortunately I wasn't the one who was in charge of the people who were attacking. Even if I have retreated or went back home the others could have continued and attacked the people. Since they saw the person standing outside they thought there were people inside and they continue attacking. It was a continuing kind of an incident.

ADV POTGIETER: Now just in conclusion you met no resistance at all at the Dlamini home, is that correct?

MR GUMBI: May you please repeat your question.

ADV POTGIETER: You met no resistance at the Dlamini home. The people did nothing to you, inside?

MR GUMBI: They didn't fight back. I didn't see anyone personally, fighting back.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And there was a fire going on in the fireplace and a candle burning in the room.

MR GUMBI: I didn't see any fire and any candle burning.

CHAIRPERSON: That was apparently the evidence led at your trial.

MR GUMBI: At the time of our court case all the evidence that was given because the court was against me, but now I am here to tell what I know, so I can't say things which I didn't see if I didn't see them. I can't say that I've seen it if I didn't see anything.

MR MPSHE: Mr Gumbi you told this Committee that the killing of the children and the women was a mistake, do I quote you correctly?

MR GUMBI: That's my view, but those who committed these acts against the women they intended to do that, but because personally myself I am against that I don't think people of a right conscience could kill women and children.

MR MPSHE: Can I then safely conclude that according to your conscience they shouldn't have been killed, it means that their deaths cannot be justified by yourself?

MR GUMBI: As I am explaining I am the one who got arrested in connection with all the incidences. I am saying that personally I didn't see the reason why we had to injure women. I was there, as I have explained and we were arguing and different in views from the other members.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please tell me the names of the members who found it necessary to kill women and children, with whom you were arguing?

MR GUMBI: I can't know them there were many, we were many people. However, one of them whom I knew was from the Mthembu family whose mother - he was one of the persons whose mother was killed, he was Sced Mthembu.

CHAIRPERSON: And where is he now?

MR GUMBI: I don't know. I last saw him in 1991 after the arrest I don't know what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Gumbi then it would mean that the unfortunate mistake, unjustifiable deaths will relate to count 1 up to count 6, people who died therein, that you cannot justify? That is on page 39 of the pagination for the convenience of the members. Count 1 to 6 those are unjustified, those cannot be politically motivated. Would you like me to read out to you the names of the people I am talking about?

MR GUMBI: Yes you can read them.

MR MPSHE: On Count 1 it is the killing of a female person, Happy Dlamini aged 20. Count 2, Malu Elsie Dlamini, aged 16, another female. Count 3, Emily Dlamini aged 60, another female. Count 5, Mildred Kunene a 51 year-old, another female. And Count 6, Patricia Ncwabe a nine year-old, another female. Those you said they are mistakes, they shouldn't have happened?

MR GUMBI: Yes, I will agree with you because they were not fighting they were women.

MR MPSHE: Was any of your family members, your immediate family members injured on the day when you were attacked?

MR GUMBI: No, they were not injured on that particular day, it was another incident of attack where Bekani Nkunu was injured. However one of our family members got injured in one of the attacks before the particular one we are talking about.

MR MPSHE: Now before the particular one you are talking about who is your family member who got injured?

MR GUMBI: It's my elder brother, can I mention his name?

MR MPSHE: Who?

MR GUMBI: His name it's Khosi.

MR MPSHE: Is he Khosi Gumbi?

MR GUMBI: Ja, that's correct.

MR MPSHE: So you say you were revenging on his behalf on this day?

MR GUMBI: That's not part of the revenge because it wasn't specifically directed to me, I mean the attack, I won't call it a family fight, it was something that was directed to the whole community, therefore as a member of the community I had to take part in the fight because there was a fight and maybe if there wasn't any fighting I wasn't going to find myself in this situation.

MR MPSHE: In response to a question put to you by Mr Rathman at a certain stage your answer was, "it is us who were fighting the war and the leaders were not involved", do you remember that?

MR GUMBI: That's correct.

MR MPSHE: Does it mean that by leaders, are you referring to the leadership of the IFP?

MR GUMBI: I am referring to the leader in our area that he didn't take part, I am not referring to the whole leaders of the IFP, I am referring to the specific leader at Richmond.

MR MPSHE: He was the IFP leader?

MR GUMBI: That's correct, he didn't take part in any of those incidents.

MR MPSHE: Did he know that this incident was going to take place?

MR GUMBI: I don't think he knew that this was going to happen because he didn't even know that we were going to be attacked and also that we are going to attack back, so I can't say that he knew.

MR MPSHE: Which means then that whatever you people did from that afternoon up till the early hours of the morning you did without the knowledge nor consent of the IFP leadership?

MR GUMBI: We did what we did as followers, there wasn't anything that we are going to do because we had to fight to protect our community, therefore we did it personally, including myself, but with a reason. I didn't just start up the fighting, attack them.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did any other IFP leaders, if not the IFP leader in Richmond, tell you to take part in the war, to take part in the attacks?

MR GUMBI: I would say, as I have just mentioned Sadamo, he also gave us instruction but however we also as a community also we were of the same view that we should attack back. However, if someone will come with a view we will follow that view if it was verified and we had to do what we had to do. In other words nobody sent me to go and do it. It was just because of the view the one person came up that we should go and fight back.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Gumbi I think you have repeatedly stated that no one sent you to attack on this particular occasion, but you have also stated that there were repeated incidents of attack in Richmond, were these brought to the leadership of the IFP, these repeated incidents of attack?

MR GUMBI: I think we did report these issues because Vezi and Majosi also talked about these because those were people who were in contact with the offices and the courts so they should have reported the matter. The situation was in such a way that the whole issue have to be reported and known. I am saying there were people who killing IFP members which had to go to court and nothing was done to them. I would say many cases were reported to court but nothing happened.

MS KHAMPEPE: But what was the attitude of the IFP leadership regarding those attacks, during the meetings that you attended as IFP supporters where the attacks against your members were discussed, was there any particular attitude adopted by the leadership about what you had to do as members of IFP in the event of an attack by the ANC people?

MR GUMBI: At the time of the attacks the situation was so tense even if we didn't like violence but we couldn't stand it. People were killed on both sides. Their people were killed too and they were fighting back and we were fighting so it was an uncontrollable situation.

MS KHAMPEPE: You are not responding to my question. I want to know whether there was an attitude adopted by the IFP leadership regarding the repeated incidents of attack against IFP members by ANC people? You must have attended meetings where this issue was discussed by the leadership?

MR GUMBI: At meetings when we discussed the situation, I don't know exactly what they were talking about, but it became clear that people were not happy about the situation, that people were being killed, I don't know if I do understand your question very well. The situation wasn't that good and we hated it because people were getting killed.

MS KHAMPEPE: What was the advice that you got from the IFP leadership concerning these repeated incidents of attacks? Were you not advised to also take up arms against attacks by alleged members of the ANC? Were you not advised to do that by your leadership?

MR GUMBI: I can't say we were advised to do anything, however, when we had meetings we were told that we don't have to attack these people, however if they attack us we have to fight back to protect ourselves. They were just telling us that we shouldn't start the fight by attacking them. However, if they attack us we should protect ourselves by fighting back.

MS KHAMPEPE: So you were encouraged to launch retaliatory attacks whenever you were attacked by ANC people?

MR GUMBI: We were not instigated to attack or encouraged to fight back but it was to protect ourselves, the community when they attack us. We had to protect ourselves because there was nothing we could do, but we were not encouraged to start and attack.

MS KHAMPEPE: That's what I said. Where did you obtain the firearm that you used on this occasion, the 9mm firearm?

MR GUMBI: I found it at the first fight.

MS KHAMPEPE: What do you mean by saying you found it at your first fight? Who gave you the 9mm pistol that you used on this occasion?

MR GUMBI: At the beginning I didn't have a firearm, we were using assegais and spears when the war started.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Gumbi what I am asking is who gave you the 9mm firearm? Do you have a name that you wish to give us, if you don't wish to disclose the name you just have to tell us that you are uncomfortable in having to disclose the name of the person.

MR GUMBI: I get you very well. I can't mention the name of a person whom I don't know. I will explain as to how I acquired the firearm. I won't say anybody has given the firearm to me, however if there's a reason where I had to mention someone's name I will have to.

MS KHAMPEPE: How did you obtain this firearm?

MR GUMBI: During February, at the beginning of the attacks people were coming to attack and before they had a meeting at school and there were children at home who were attending the Margot High School, they went to the meeting, we didn't know anything about the meeting, when they entered at the beginning of the attack one of them by the name Scejime happened to drop the gun because he was shot and he died. I didn't say, I can't say I get it there but I don't know whether it was directly from him because he was holding a big firearm, but I found it somewhere there.

MS KHAMPEPE: And do you know how soon it took the 80 or 60 people who gathered immediately after the ANC had attacked your stronghold, do you know how they managed to get the firearms that they used during the attack in question?

MR GUMBI: I don't know how they acquired those firearms. However, we just discovered that people were armed and we didn't know where they got the firearms. I can't really say they got them from a specific place.

CHAIRPERSON: Do they walk around armed the whole time?

MR GUMBI: At the time of violence people used to be armed in most cases and if a person who is in possession of a firearm will always be carrying the firearm around the place.

MS KHAMPEPE: Would you estimate how many people were armed on this occasion, is it possible to do that?

MR GUMBI: I would say there were over ten. Some were holding home-made guns because there were so many home-made guns at the time.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to put one thing to you in the light of what you have just said to Ms Khampepe, she asked you about what guidance you got from your leadership, did you consider that your leadership had let you down?

MR GUMBI: You mean - "letting down", can you clarify the question, I don't get it very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me read and see if you agree.

"We saw ourselves in trouble because of our leaders. They did not teach us, their followers, the aims and objectives of the political parties. Instead of preaching the truth they allowed us to fight. It is well-known that these organisations, i.e. the IFP and the ANC have killed a lot of people. I think each one of them says they are in the struggle. If one organisation tries to kill another that leads to many unnecessary deaths".

Do you agree with that?

MR GUMBI: Yes I do agree with that. That's my own personal view.

CHAIRPERSON: So you say that instead of preaching the truth the IFP allowed you to fight, is that your view?

MR GUMBI: Only when I am referring to a leader. I don't see any reason why we had to fight because if they did sit down and talk about the problems they could have resolved the issue and were not going to fight.

CHAIRPERSON: You see when Mr Rathman asked you some questions you said you didn't have time to consider contacting the leaders because you knew your leaders were not going to attack they would try to cool you down.

MR GUMBI: That's true. However, it becomes a bit difficult for me to explain. They were not going to agree that we should go and attack. However, while I was completing the amnesty application forms I personally stated that if the political leaders were able to stop this from the beginning we shouldn't have got into the situation where we had to fight.

CHAIRPERSON: And the final thing on this matter was when you were asked in your application,

"Were the acts committed in the execution of an order or on behalf or with the approval of an organisation, the organisation concerned, that is the IFP?"

You said,

"It was a revenge".

Do you remember saying that in your application?

MR GUMBI: I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 11A. Why did you steal the chair?

MR GUMBI: May you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you steal the chair?

MR GUMBI: As I have explained I don't know anything about the chair, however I was told in court that I did steal a chair. I explained that I didn't know about the chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the judgment says at page 72 of the bundle, dealing with your evidence,

"He expressly denied having taken any part in what he described as 'the fight'. He admitted that he stole one chair of a lounge suite. Such theft occurred at kraal 4/8".

which is one of the kraals on a map. Do you remember having given evidence to that effect, or was the Judge incorrect?

MR GUMBI: I won't disagree with the Judge with regard to this statement and as a first-time offender when I was arrested I wasn't told anything. When I did my confession statement I didn't know anything and I admitted that I did that because I thought if I agree that I did that this case, which involved a lot of people will be separated from the murder counts, that they found the chair from me and that I did steal the chair, it's not true.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Gumbi when Advocate Mpshe put a question to you as to why you committed the offence for which you are applying for amnesty your response was the reason you joined the attackers was in fact to attack the people who had attacked your home, do you recall saying that?

MR GUMBI: You mean they attacked our home? I didn't say that. I said my home was just above that particular area just next to where they attacked. They were not - the attack wasn't directed to our house. I am saying that I was at home on that particular day and I saw them attacking, but it wasn't a direct attack to our family.

MS KHAMPEPE: Okay. But the whole object of you joining in the attack was to revenge against the people who had attacked the vicinity around your home?

MR GUMBI: That's correct. People who were killing our members I had to pay revenge.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now was your attack aimed specifically at the people who had attacked that vicinity or was your attack aimed at any person who was an ANC member?

MR GUMBI: I couldn't specifically identify the people who were attacking us. However, the people that we attacked it was an ANC area and there were people who were sometimes involved in the attack on our side.

MS KHAMPEPE: So your intention was to attack any person who was in that stronghold which was considered to be an ANC stronghold and it was not directed at any particular person?

MR GUMBI: During a fight it's so difficult to aim specifically to attack a particular person. We were many and we intended to attack ANC members whom we knew they stay in particular areas or places. Anyone who was an ANC member who happened to be in that particular place could have been attacked.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: Can I just follow that up. Mr Gumbi you said you didn't identify the attackers, but did you assume that the attackers were ANC members or supporters?

MR GUMBI: I didn't see them with my naked eyes but I knew that they were ANC because those were the people we were fighting against.

ADV POTGIETER: She says, the translation says you knew - the question is did you assume? You didn't see the people, you didn't identify them, did you assume because there was these fighting going on that it must have been ANC members or supporters that attacked your place that particular day?

MR GUMBI: They were ANC members, they were the people who started the fight, because if we can go back and investigate we can find out that it was the people, it was the ANC people who started the attacks. It's not what I assume, it's what I knew happened because I was there.

ADV POTGIETER: And you can't say whether any of those attackers came from this particular area where you launched your own attack?

MR GUMBI: We couldn't know because when they attacked we couldn't go and identify as to where they come from because when they attack they just come from nowhere and start attacking and we couldn't identify them in that particular time. It was going to be difficult for anyone to identify them.

ADV POTGIETER: So did you then decide as a group you will attack a particular area which was an ANC stronghold, whether the earlier attackers came from there or not?

MR GUMBI: We didn't know exactly who attacked us but we knew that they were ANC members involved and where we knew there were ANC members we had to enter that particular place and attack them. There were so many people whom we didn't attack, we couldn't attack those families because there was no clear sign as to whether there were people inside or not.

ADV POTGIETER: No but before you launched the attack did you, you said that you had a meeting, you had a discussion, that you decided during that discussion that you will attack this particular area?

MR GUMBI: Yes we came with a view that we have to fight back or pay revenge, to employ whatever way possible to pay revenge.

ADV POTGIETER: Yes and you decided to attack this particular area, is that correct?

MR GUMBI: Yes we agreed that we are going to attack that area.

ADV POTGIETER: And the only reason for that was because this particular area was an ANC stronghold?

MR GUMBI: Well it's not necessarily because it was an ANC area, it was because the people who attacked us stayed in that particular place and we were fighting against them. We couldn't just go and attack them because they were ANC because they have a right to be ANC members.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

NO FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DE KLERK

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE: With the permission of the Chairman, just one question Mr Chairman, just one. As a follow-up from what the Committee has asked you and you said you did not attack because the ANC people stayed there, you were attacking the people who had attacked you, do you remember that?

MR GUMBI: We were attacking people from that particular area, people who were also attacking us which people were ANC members. We didn't attack them because we are angry because it was an ANC area. We didn't attack because we hated the fact that they were ANC in that particular area. It is because we were fighting - it confuses me as to how to explain this.

MR MPSHE: Alright, perhaps I may help you. In your attack were you attacking, was your attack directed at the ANC or directed at ordinary attackers?

MR GUMBI: We couldn't directly attack those who attacked us because we didn't know, however we knew that they belonged to a particular political organisation, that is the ANC.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe I think that has been covered quite extensively by him, you can take it no further.

MR MPSHE: I stand corrected. Thank you very much. No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

WITNESS EXCUSED

 
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