N J VERMEULEN: (sworn states)
MR CORNELIUS: Mr Chairman, this is Mr Vermeulen.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I'm sorry.
MR CORNELIUS: I'm terribly sorry.
CHAIRPERSON: I thought you weren't calling him.
EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Mr Chairman, there's a document, a supplementary argument to the amnesty application, which was placed before the Committee at the pre-trial conference. I'll just be briefly referring to that Mr Chairman.
Mr Vermeulen, is it correct that you have prepared a proper application with regard to Section 22(a)(a) of the Act, and that you have timeously submitted it within the period of 12 months, to the TRC offices in the Cape?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it also correct that in terms of Section 22, with regard to your involvement in the Botswana attack, you have acted according to the political motives in combating the infiltration of the ANC and the PAC into the RSA?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Is it correct that at the time of this Chand incident you were stationed at Vlakplaas and you served under Section C of Eugene de Kock and you were also a Warrant Officer?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Furthermore, you have given evidence - and as we will see in the supplementary document at all times you obeyed the orders of Captain Eugene de Kock - Mr Chairman, sorry, it's the yellow document. I have two more supplementary documents here, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
At all times you executed the orders of Colonel Eugene de Kock, and you felt that if you did not obey his orders you would encounter personal jeopardy and disadvantage, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You confirm the evidence of the applicants who have already given evidence insofar as it involves your involvement and any errata which they have corrected indicates that you were not involved in the Botswana attack.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: What did you have to do with the attack?
MR VERMEULEN: I had nothing to do with the attack.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you pack any equipment for usage during the incident?
MR VERMEULEN: At the beginning of the operation yes, at Vlakplaas. What exactly the equipment was I no longer can recall, but I assume it would have been first-aid equipment, in case there were any injuries.
MR CORNELIUS: But you did not cross the border and visit the house?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: As the other applicants have testified, you did form part of a cover-group which moved down to Richards Bay, in order to create a facade that the entire group of applicants would have been there?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: In the event of you not executing your orders, is it correct as General van der Merwe gave evidence before the Committee with regard to the Cosatu bombing incident - and I quote
"If it concerns that this person would be removed, therefore I have no doubt, but no further steps would be taken against this person except for the fact that I think in general such a person would have had a difficult life in the South African Police."
Would that also have been your situation?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: At all times you acted in terms of Article 22(b), within the scope and execution of your duties, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And at all times you acted in good faith?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you receive any remuneration for the deeds that you committed?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you at any time act our of malice or vengeance towards any or the victims?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR CORNELIUS: You request amnesty before this Committee, insofar as it involves your involvement in conspiracy, whether these be statutory or common law offences, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: You have given a full disclosure of the relevant facts, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
MR HATTINGH: Hattingh on behalf of de Kock, Mr Chairman. We have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
MR LAMEY: No questions, Mr Chairman. Lamey on behalf of Nortje.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman, Knight on behalf of applicant Ras. No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KNIGHT
MR WAGENER: Jan Wagener, Mr Chairman. No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER
MR DU PLESSIS: Roelof du Plessis on behalf of Mentz. No questions.
MR BOOYENS: Booyens, Mr Chairperson. No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Ramula Patel on record, Honourable Chairperson.
Mr Vermeulen, just briefly, when you packed the equipment for this operation, did you have any idea what you were packing the equipment for, for what purpose it was going to be used?
MR VERMEULEN: I knew that there was an operation under way and the equipment lay there in bulk. It was to be packed into different bags. Exactly what the content of it was, I cannot recall.
MS PATEL: Did you have any knowledge of the nature of the operation?
MR VERMEULEN: I just knew there was an operation to be launched, otherwise I didn't know nothing. It was not my duty to know.
MS PATEL: And you say that you were part of the cover-up as well, and that you went with to Richards Bay. Did you have any idea what the cover-up was about?
MR VERMEULEN: No, I just accompanied Bosch and, I think Botha, down there and we waited there, that's all.
MS PATEL: So you can't say whether the operation in which you assisted, to the extent that you assisted in, that you knew at the time that there was a political element to it?
MR VERMEULEN: No, not that I know of.
MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
ADV SANDI: Just to get some clarity on this, Mr Vermeulen. Was it known to you that this operation was going to be about the attack and killing of people in Botswana?
MR VERMEULEN: I just knew there was an operation, the finer details I didn't know of. It wasn't my duty to know anything about that.
ADV SANDI: Ja, but was it your understanding that in this operation which you did not know about, some people were going to be attacked and killed?
MR VERMEULEN: I didn't ask, it wasn't my duty to know about it. So I just did what I was told to do, to pack the satchels, that's all.
ADV SANDI: And when you to Richards Bay, did I understand you to say that you just accompanied Mr Bosch, and you waited for him there?
MR VERMEULEN: We all went in a group. Mr Bosch, I think, did all the organising there and I that was all. I just accompanied, I didn't do anything else.
ADV SANDI: Are you able to point out any assistance that was rendered by you to hide, to conceal the fact that these gentlemen had gone to Botswana?
MR VERMEULEN: I don't understand that question.
ADV SANDI: Why are you applying for amnesty? - let me put it that way to you. Why do you apply for amnesty?
MR VERMEULEN: I applied for amnesty because I was wrongly implicated in this case.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I note it's 1 o'clock. I'm prepared to move my flight arrangements. I cannot expect the Committee to rush through the application, so I'm prepared to call the travel agency and move it till a later flight, and then I'll call Britz after the lunch adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON: He will be a somewhat longer witness, won't he?
MR CORNELIUS: I think so, Mr Chairman. I think especially the Evidence Leader might have questions. So I think I'll move the flight arrangements and I'll call him after two. And I think we adjourn at this stage.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, but if you're sure. Look if they tell you you have problems - because I can say I flew to Durban and back yesterday and there was not an empty seat on either plane.
MR CORNELIUS: Yes, I realise that.
CHAIRPERSON: If you have problems, let me know and we can perhaps try to start earlier.
MR CORNELIUS: I appreciate that, Mr Chair, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
