CHAIRPERSON: Anybody care to tell us why we're starting late? Anybody want to venture? No. It's probably an act of God, seeing that we're sitting in the church.
Where are we now?
MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairman, may I assist?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR VAN DER MERWE: At the last stage when we adjourned this hearing, my client, Mr Hoffman, had finished his evidence and his re-examination and I think the Committee was in the process of asking one or two questions. As you will notice in the transcript, pages 157, I think it finished at 1567. The transcript, not the ...
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that number.
MR VAN DER MERWE: The transcript indicates that at the stage when we adjourned, Mr Chairman, yourself and Judge Khampepe were asking certain questions in clearing up certain issues with my client and at that stage it transpired that there was a victim that wasn't notified, but everybody, all the attorneys present had already cross-examined Mr Hoffman.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I think I had exhausted my questioning.
ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions to put to Mr Hoffman, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I can't even remember if I had. He's excused.
MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairman, that concludes my clients for this hearing.
CHAIRPERSON: Who's next?
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair, Cornelius for the record. I call N J Vermeulen.
NICHOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I've been given to understand that I might be brief in this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me?
MR CORNELIUS: He's one of the footsoldiers, so I'll be pretty brief in leading his evidence. Thank you, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Normally they haven't got much to say.
EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Quite correct.
You prepared your application according to Section 18 of the Act, and you gave your cooperation to the Investigative Team of the TRC, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: You were an employee of the South African Police, as defined in Section 29(2)(b) and (2)(f) of the Act, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is.
MR CORNELIUS: You were seconded to the C-Section of which de Kock was in charge.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, yes.
MR CORNELIUS: You confirm your amnesty application as it appears in the bundle, concerning the general background and the political motives thereof.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, yes.
MR CORNELIUS: You followed the instructions of de Kock and worked on a need-to-know basis.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, yes.
MR CORNELIUS: And you acted at all times within the service of the police.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You are an explosives expert, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You manufactured an explosive device, which was used in this specific incident in Botswana, is that correct? ...(transcriber's interpretation)
CHAIRPERSON: Could I ask the following question? I do not want to be funny, but we all know what happened in the country in the past, the knowledge that you had about explosives, was it to manufacture bombs, to identify bombs or to defuse bombs that were found?
MR VERMEULEN: Chairperson, I was an Inspector of Explosives.
CHAIRPERSON: What I would like to know is, what did your tasks entail, was it to manufacture bombs for the purpose, for example, in this case or was it for when they find bombs, to then inspect and identify them, or to say what they were? And thirdly, that if they found something, for example, in a shop, that you would then diffuse this bomb?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, the last two that you mentioned is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And the manufacturing of bombs was just a later aspect of your tasks, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair. You mention in your application that you carried a "platter", could you explain to the Committee what a "platter' is.
MR VERMEULEN: Mr Chairperson, it consists of a plastic pipe, the cover which I can estimate would be about 20cm, the length would be approximately 30cm, and I would say at the front of this pipe it had a round piece of metal that fitted into the pipe and then at the back the pipe was full of explosives and then it was detonated mechanically or electrically from the back.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. And this specific device, did it have an electrical detonator?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: And what was the length of the cord?
MR VERMEULEN: The platter itself was taken to the target, it was mounted with a detonating device, in order to give it a safe distance and at the end of the detonator device we would then add a spring charge and then detonate it from there.
CHAIRPERSON: What type of problems could this bomb cause? If I could put it as such.
MR VERMEULEN: It can result in major damage. The platter or the metal in the front is quite heavy and it will then forced out at a high speed.
CHAIRPERSON: You describe the bomb that was used to damage or destroy this house
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You saw this house?
MR VERMEULEN: The night that we went there, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: It could have been described to you before you made this bomb.
MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: How did you then know how big this bomb had to be then to create the necessary damage?
MR VERMEULEN: Quite a while before that - we were not specifically tasked to partake in this operation, at the last moment I was involved, or I became involved. I experimented with the explosive devices, because you can use different devices for example, for a car bomb.
CHAIRPERSON: So you prepared this beforehand and you could then just take what you needed for an operation.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: So you did not manufacture a bomb specifically for an operation.
MR VERMEULEN: No, this bomb was not made specifically for that operation.
CHAIRPERSON: How can I say, did you place it in a cupboard and then use it when necessary?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Just to clarify it for the Committee, I understand in consultation you said that you tested this bomb at the mines.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And that you then found that it was sufficient.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Can you just explain to the Committee in short. You went to the scene, what happened then?
MR VERMEULEN: We crossed the border in the evening. It was quite a distance from the building. We came together there. I think Mr Ras carried the bomb up to the house. We took out the cortex. There was a problem with the electrical wiring, it was in a crow's nest and we could not place it at a safe distance. The bomb was then quickly detonated.
MR CORNELIUS: You are now talking in general, can you give more specifics. Did you try to lay the wire down and then it became entangled.
CHAIRPERSON: And you knew what the operation was about, you received your instructions "bring a bomb along, we are going to do something"? ...(transcriber's interpretation)
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And when you arrived there you realised what you had to do.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And you agreed with it.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: You knew that this bomb could kill somebody.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, I did.
MR CORNELIUS: And you also knew that this was a transit house and it was for purposes of the ANC, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: When you couldn't get the wiring set out, what did you do then?
MR VERMEULEN: I took the open ends of the wiring, I connected the battery and an explosion occurred.
MR CORNELIUS: You were quite close to it and you were then covered with dust and gravel.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: What happened then? We understood from the evidence that the walls of the house collapsed. ...(transcriber's interpretation)
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And after the bomb was detonated, what did you do then?
MR VERMEULEN: We then moved back to the house, I moved around the house. I did not see anyone. I heard shots being fired ...(intervention)
MR CORNELIUS: Can I just assist you. You submitted evidence to the Committee, that behind the ANC facility there was a round rondawel with a thatched roof, was that the lapa that you are referring to in your application?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You set it alight.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Did it have walls? Did it have reeds or clay?
MR VERMEULEN: As far as I know it had a very low wall around it, but it was not up to the ceiling.
MR CORNELIUS: It was mentioned that it could have been a cooking place.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, I assumed it was a cooking facility.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you see anybody in this rondawel?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR CORNELIUS: How did you set the thatched roof alight?
MR VERMEULEN: There was a candle there, I kept it up to the ceiling and it caught alight.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you then take part in the shooting afterwards?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: You did not ...(intervention)
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I interpose, Mr Vermeulen.
Why was it necessary for you to set this lapa on fire, you've just testified that there was no-one inside this lapa.
MR VERMEULEN: The only reason why I did it was because it was the ANC transit facility and I decided that while we're destroying it, I can destroy the rest of the buildings as well.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was it part of the instruction that you had received from Mr de Kock, that you should destroy any property?
MR VERMEULEN: Nobody gave me an instruction to destroy the rondawel, I did it on my own.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was it not against the instruction that you, the general instruction that you had been given?
MR VERMEULEN: Not as far as I am concerned, no.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Why not, because your instructions were to destroy the main building with a detonator?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And your instruction was not to destroy any property using ...(indistinct)
MR VERMEULEN: Well I felt - as I said, I took it on my own to destroy the rondawel, because it was used as a transit facility to make food, so that's why I destroyed it. I didn't get any instruction to do it, I did it on my own.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: What about the other building that was left standing? That was not destroyed.
MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, I didn't even - to tell you the truth, I didn't even know there was another building, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you. Mr Cornelius.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Judge.
There were no disciplinary actions taken against you because of the fact that you destroyed this rondawel, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: You believed that you acted in accordance with the country's interest, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: And to prevent any further infiltration of ANC members.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: After you detonated the bomb, did you then leave the scene and go back to South Africa?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Except for the salary that you received, did you receive any other bonuses or any incentives to do this work?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: You did not get any personal gain?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: You had no personal feelings of hate against the victims?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you make a full disclosure of all the facts, according to your knowledge?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And you then ask for amnesty on two incidents of murder and all offences under the Act on Explosives, and whatever may result out of it, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: The blowing up of the house, would that not be arson?
MR CORNELIUS: It will be arson as well. I've actually included it in the malicious damage to property, but arson would be quite correct, to include arson. Thank you, Mr Chair.
MR NEL: I've got no questions for Mr Vermeulen. Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL
MR JANSEN: No questions, Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
MR VAN DER MERWE: Van der Merwe on record, Mr Chairman. No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE
MR LAMEY: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO(?): Thank you, Mr Chairman, just two aspects.
Mr Vermeulen, evidence was given that after this operation occurred, you received merit certificates, did you receive such a certificate?
MR VERMEULEN: I cannot remember, Mr Chairperson, certificates were handed out but it was given out within a wide spectrum. I cannot remember if it was for that specific operation.
MR HUGO: Those were the certificates that were signed by Gen van der Merwe, and were handed out to the members.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, it could have been. I did receive some of them, but I cannot remember if it was concerning this specific incident.
MR HUGO: And then just the last aspect. Evidence was given that this operation was mainly handed over to Mr Ras, that he did the planning, the preparation etcetera, and that Mr de Kock came in at a later stage, on an operational level. Is that also how you experienced it?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maribana.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARIBANA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. J C Maribana on behalf of the victims.
Mr Vermeulen, I've got just a few questions for you. Firstly, I just want to find out how far the charge was put from structure Y.
MR VERMEULEN: Mr Chairman, that I won't be able to answer because I didn't place the charge itself, I was just the person that ignited the electric detonator.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr Vermeulen, you are free to respond in your language. You can use Afrikaans in your response.
MR VERMEULEN: Thank you, Mr Chair.
MR MARIBANA: Okay, the other aspect I would like clarity from you on, I just want to find out from you Mr Vermeulen, would you be able maybe to tell this Committee as to - if you can remember, when you detonated the charge, did someone order you to do that or you just did it on your own?
MR VERMEULEN: At that stage somebody would have said to me that the detonator is set, because I wouldn't have been able to detonate it with the electric wiring if somebody was close to the main detonating device, I had to get the instructions to go ahead.
CHAIRPERSON: Or some kind of sign?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, yes.
MR MARIBANA: And the other thing - okay, as you have just indicated that you remember setting the rondawel alight, will you be able maybe to remember as to how did it come that structure X, that is the family house, how did it catch alight?
MR VERMEULEN: Mr Chairperson, I cannot say. When I set he rondawel alight I just saw that the flame started burning properly in the rondawel itself and that then we withdrew from the scene. I was about 500m away and when I looked back I saw the roof of the rondawel itself burning. I did not see that the big family house was burning at that stage.
MR MARIBANA: Okay Mr Vermeulen, there's evidence before this Committee, I can't remember exactly whether it was from Mr Ras or from Mr Hoffman, that at a certain stage when you looked back you could see that the family house was on fire. Do you remember maybe seeing the family house on fire on that day in question?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson, all that I can remember is that I saw the rondawel alight.
MR MARIBANA: And now just one question more. About the structure Y, when you detonated the bomb, did that charge destroy this structure completely, or how was it destroyed actually by that bomb?
MR VERMEULEN: As far as I can recall, the wall - I would say it was number E, that wall was completely destroyed, the roof or the ceiling fell in at that side. I did not enter the house itself, so I cannot say what it looked like inside, but I know that the wall E was completely destroyed and the ceiling was, or the roof was completely collapsed in.
MR MARIBANA: And what about the other part of the structure where it was written ANC and then it was B1 next to it? Did it fall or what happened actually?
MR VERMEULEN: That I don't know, Mr Chair. It was dark and I didn't check there. As I said, the only thing that I know for sure was that the roof and the wall marked E, that was completely destroyed.
MR MARIBANA: And did you - as you about that other structure where it was written B, when you got near the structure, or you'd been proceeding towards the rondawel, was that structure still intact?
MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, Mr Chair, I can't say because I didn't look at that structure.
MR MARIBANA: Mr Vermeulen, I've got instructions that even structure B was completely destroyed on the day in question, what is your comment on that?
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Structure B?
MR MARIBANA: I mean this one - excuse me, Madam Chair, structure Y. On that other part the witness has just indicated that he can't remember ...
MR VERMEULEN: I won't deny that, but as far as my memory can allow me I can say the first structure, that is number 2, that was destroyed, the rest I don't know, I didn't look, I didn't enter that building at all.
MR MARIBANA: Okay.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: By that you mean you don't know whether structure X was destroyed or not?
MR CORNELIUS: Judge, sorry to interrupt. He's referring to structure B, that is the ANC facility. Judge, do you have a copy?
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I don't have a copy, but I do recall the structure. It's just that it's a little bit confusing because we've got two structures, structure X and structure Y, but he's referring to the side on structure X.
MR CORNELIUS: He's referring to these two over here.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes.
MR MARIBANA: Madam Chair, if I can just put the Chairman in a better light. Mr Vermeulen has just indicated that on structure Y, what he can remember is that that part which is marked E, it was completely destroyed. I just wanted to find out from him about this other part, not about structure X.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, it was a little bit confusing because he referred to that side as a structure and not the wall or the side in structure Y.
MR MARIBANA: Thank you, Madam Chair.
And then lastly, did that charger maybe have an effect on structure X?
MR VERMEULEN: Just repeat that question.
MR MARIBANA: Okay. The detonating of the charger, did it have any effect on structure X?
MR VERMEULEN: I won't be able to comment on that because I didn't see that building, Mr Chair.
MR MARIBANA: And I've got instructions that the walls of that structure, for structure X, were destroyed as well. What is your comment on that?
CHAIRPERSON: Is that possible?
MR VERMEULEN: Not from the detonation or the detonating of that explosive, it would not have been able to destroy X.
CHAIRPERSON: But I think you wouldn't have said that it was because of the explosion. Do you have knowledge, of the fact that maybe that building was damaged?
MR VERMEULEN: No, I did not even see that building.
CHAIRPERSON: No. So you cannot say?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR MARIBANA: If I may just ask you, do you remember any weapon, except the charger, which could be able to destroy the wall of that other building?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chair.
MR MARIBANA: As it pleases. I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARIBANA
MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chair, I have no questions for the witness.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
MR CORNELIUS: I've no re-examination, thank you Mr Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I have not questions for Mr Vermeulen.
ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you're excused.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vermeulen, you can be seated. You said that you were applying for two murders, offences pertaining to the Explosives Act, as well as arson.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: In that building which was blown up, I understand from previous evidence that there were two persons who were at least injured, and it appeared that they were dead at that time. What about them?
MR CORNELIUS: If I may interrupt. That will obviously include two attempted murder charges then as well.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I just want to ask all the legal representatives to, even now, consider what they're going to ask amnesty for at the end of the day, just to list it even if your client has already testified. I just want clarity on that before we finish with this matter.
MR CORNELIUS: As the Chair pleases.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, the next applicant is Nortje. I just beg leave to call him.
