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Amnesty Hearings

Type AMNESTY HEARINGS

Starting Date 06 May 1999

Location VANDERBIJLPARK

Day 4

Names ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA

Case Number AM2778/96

Matter BOIPATONG MASSACRE

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ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should try and expedite your cross-examination. Can you tell this man on the witness stand definitely, yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Lowies?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LOWIES: (cont)

Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nosenga, on your version, why was it that Mr Keswa, Victor Keswa managed to be released every time he was arrested?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know what to say, I did indicate to you that he did not spend a long time in prison.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, you must please answer the question. The question is what is your opinion why did he manage ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, I think his opinion is irrelevant. Why is his opinion relevant? Because all he told us that as far as he knows, he didn't spend much time in jail.

MR LOWIES: I will rephrase that. Is it your version that he was in collusion with the government and that that is the reason why he was able to be released every time?

MR NOSENGA: I said he was working with the Police here with the Vaal, I don't know what to say any more.

MR LOWIES: So according to you if he worked together with the Police, they will be able to help you to be released, instead of going to jail for long periods of time?

MR NOSENGA: I am saying the Police did not release me, I was sentenced for the Sebokeng offence, I am still in prison but Victor Keswa, (indistinct) did not spend a long time in prison. I am still in prison.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, isn't it true that you handed yourself over to the Police voluntarily?

MR NOSENGA: I did indicate that yesterday, I did not volunteer myself to the Police, I was arrested by the Police at Parys and they took me to Vereeniging.

MR LOWIES: And you, Mr Nosenga, had a reason to confess to the drive-by shootings, the reason being you were afraid of your life?

MR NOSENGA: I was beaten up, I was being beaten up by the Police, they applied some electric shocks on me.

MR LOWIES: Is it correct that you could not return to your place of birth because you had problems with the comrades?

MR NOSENGA: I did say that I could not have gone back to Everton. I had a quarrel with the ANC members.

MR LOWIES: Now, Hunter Ndlovu, is he still alive?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know, I am in prison, I have no idea whether he is still alive or not.

MR LOWIES: At the time when you handed yourself over, was he still alive?

CHAIRPERSON: He has repeatedly said he didn't hand himself over to the Police.

MR LOWIES: I rephrase.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: At the time when you were arrested, was he still alive?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, he was still alive.

MR LOWIES: Did he participate in any drive-by shootings that you know of?

MR NOSENGA: I did say he participated in the drive-by shootings.

MR LOWIES: Sorry Chair, I don't have a signal, I don't hear the translation. Can I maybe get another ...

MR LAX: This little box right here up on the stand, is the transmitter, so if you could point these two glass or crystal things towards it, that will give you a better signal.

MR LOWIES: I am indebted. Could that answer be repeated please Chair?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I was with Hunter Ndlovu when people were shot at Sebokeng.

MR LOWIES: Do you know whether Darkie Chonco had any part in the drive-by shootings?

MR NOSENGA: Darkie was not present when people were shot in Sebokeng. Darkie Chonco was not there.

MR LOWIES: Jack Mbhele, do you know whether he had any part in the drive-by shootings whether it be with you or with anybody else? Do you know Mr Mbhele? Jack Mbhele?

MR NOSENGA: No, I did not get him quite well, I don't know him. Maybe I have forgotten him.

MR LOWIES: Do you know Dondo Mbhele?

MR NOSENGA: I know Dondo, but he was not there. He was at Boipatong at the time.

MR LOWIES: Do you know of your knowledge if he was part of a drive-by shooting? Did he take part in a drive-by shooting with anybody else where you were not present?

MR NOSENGA: I am saying Dondo was not present when we shot people at Sebokeng. I don't know what to say any more.

MR LOWIES: Now when you were at the kwaMadala hostel, there was an aluminium wall, or there is still today an aluminium or an iron wall around the whole hostel, do you know of this wall?

MR NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall, I don't want to tell a lie. No, I don't want to tell a lie.

MR LOWIES: But you have been residing there since 1991 and you do not know about this wall?

MR NOSENGA: I was not there for looking precisely at the walls, I don't know what you are trying to say. Are you trying to say that I should know the wall?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

MR NOSENGA: I am saying I do not recall the wall. I did not go to the hostel to look at each and every corner of the hostel. I had fled from the township, I was not there for the walls. I had fled from the township.

MR LOWIES: Would you be able to show us the room which you occupied in the kwaMadala hostel?

MR NOSENGA: I said I occupied several rooms at the hostel. I don't know how I can show you the rooms, but if you can take me there, definitely I will.

MR LOWIES: So you will be able to show us the rooms that you occupied, all of them?

MR NOSENGA: If I still remember, yes. If I don't, I will not be in the position.

MR LOWIES: Now regarding the allegations against you that you were a spy, who made these allegations against you at the hostel?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know about that. That is news to me, I only heard about it here at the TRC. They have been talking about this spy thing, I don't know anything about it. These people did not give you a correct statement.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, I would like you to think clearly. Was there never ever in your life, allegations against you that you were spying on the people of kwaMadala, never, ever?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know anything about that. They are saying I was an ANC spy. If that is the case, I would not have survived my stay at the hostel. I would have done something myself to kill them too, if I was a spy of the ANC, so that is nonsense.

MR LOWIES: According to you, you have no knowledge of any accusations levelled against you by the IFP for being a spy, you only heard it here at the hearing?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is nonsense. I only heard about it here at the hearing and Buthelezi denied.

CHAIRPERSON: Just listen to the question and just answer the question. This hearings will go much faster if you listen to the question and just answer the question. What you are being asked is has anyone ever accused you of being a spy?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything.

MR LOWIES: Were the people not suspicious of you because of your ANC background?

MR NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: Didn't it take some doing and some assistance by Mtwana Zulu before you were fully accepted in the hostel?

MR NOSENGA: No. I don't know about that.

MR LOWIES: Because your statement on page 18, Exhibit R, paragraph 2, the third sentence reads as follows, I maybe should start at the second sentence with your permission Chair

"... I was told that ANC killed IFP members, so we needed to defend ourselves. At first they were suspicious of me because of my ANC background, but later they accepted me."

You were referring here to the people in the hostel. So you say this is completely untrue?

MR NOSENGA: I said I arrived at the hostel in 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not the question that you are being asked. What you are being asked, you are being asked about the statement which appears in this affidavit, in this sworn statement which says this is now when you are describing your arrival at the hostel, do you understand that, in 1991 as you told us? You say

"... at first they were suspicious of me because of my ANC background, but later accepted me ...",

do you understand that?

MR NOSENGA: I said ...

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand what I have just read back to you?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I do understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your answer, what do you say to that, is it true?

MR NOSENGA: That is not true, I did explain how I came to be at the hostel from the township. They did not trust me at the beginning, but later on they did. When I went to the hostel, they did not trust me at first, but later on they accepted me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they tell you why they didn't trust you?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, they did. They said some people come to the hostel for information, so they wanted to make sure, they wanted to be certain of the person before the person could be accepted.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they tell you that they suspect that you are there to look for information?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that. They just told me that they did not trust me.

CHAIRPERSON: But they did not specifically accuse you of being there to look for information?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all they said is simply that they don't trust people who come there, because sometimes they come to look for information?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LOWIES: There was nothing said that you had an ANC background?

MR NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: What did you have to do to convince them of your good faith, that you are not a spy or that you can be accepted by them? How did it change?

MR NOSENGA: I did explain. I wore an Inkatha T-shirt and went to Vereeniging. People from the township do their shopping in town.

MR LOWIES: That all that you did, to gain, to get their trust?

MR NOSENGA: And the shooting of the people of Everton as well as Sebokeng.

MR LOWIES: So do you say that your participation in the shooting of the people at Everton and Sebokeng, made them realise that you can be trusted?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, because I managed to go and shoot people from my own township where I was born. I am from Everton and I went there to shoot these people.

MR LOWIES: But sir, you were only involved in shootings in 1992, two days prior to Boipatong? So did they not trust you from 1991 when you joined there up until two days before the Boipatong massacre?

MR NOSENGA: I did indicate that to be trusted, you had to put on an IFP T-shirt so that the people around the Vaal should know that you are an IFP member, these people were doing their shopping in town.

MR LOWIES: I am talking about your version that one of the aspects that made them comfortable with you, which made them trust you, was the fact that you shot people. Now that only occurred two days prior to the Boipatong massacre?

MR NOSENGA: I shot people when I arrived, or should I say when I was at the hostel, on the 15th, that is at Sebokeng as well as at Everton, that was in 1992.

MR LOWIES: When you arrived at the hostel, I don't understand? What did you say?

MR LAX: He corrected, he used the word "arrive", but it wasn't translated because he corrected what he was saying, so what he actually said was that he shot people on the 15th.

MR LOWIES: So you did not shoot people when you arrived at the hostel for the first time?

MR NOSENGA: No, I did not shoot people, I do not want to commit myself to that.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, regarding the going of you to Ulundi, did you do so out of your own free will?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Did you go, we have heard that you went with Vanana Zulu?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, and Gatchene too.

MR LOWIES: How long after the Boipatong shooting was this meeting in Ulundi?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know. I don't want to tell a lie.

MR LOWIES: Would you agree with a month more or less after this?

MR NOSENGA: I said I don't know sir.

MR LOWIES: Were you always in the company of Vanana Zulu and Chonco there at the - Darkie - there at Ulundi?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, and other induna's.

MR LOWIES: Was it not said there at the meeting Mr Nosenga, that you were a spy and that you came there to get the information for the ANC?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: I want to put the following to you Mr Nosenga, we are in the process of obtaining the records of that meeting and the following happened there according to my instructions: Vanana Zulu informed the whole meeting when they had to give feedbacks regarding their regions, that you were a planted ANC spy?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know about that.

MR LOWIES: That you were requested inter alia to obtain registration numbers of vehicles of IFP members at kwaMadala hostel, of leaders there?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know about that. I am not educated, how could I have taken down registration numbers of vehicles?

MR LOWIES: And that you were threatened to do so, if you did not do so in other words, you would have been sjamboked?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know that.

MR LOWIES: That was said at a public meeting and it was recorded. Do you deny any knowledge of anything similar to that happening?

MR NOSENGA: I am saying I don't know that.

MR LOWIES: It was also recorded Mr Nosenga, that you only arrived at the hostel approximately two days prior, the Tuesday before the meeting, which was in July, more or less if I work it out, the 14th of July, but I will get the precise date later, the fact is definitely after the Boipatong massacre? That was recorded?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know what they are saying.

MR LOWIES: It was also recorded Mr Nosenga, that you arrived there out of your own free will, at the meeting.

MR NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: And if it happened, you would have known about it of course?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: That is why I put it to you Mr Nosenga, you have been planted in this hearing, you were not an inhabitant in the kwaMadala hostel at the time of the Boipatong massacre.

MR NOSENGA: I do not know what you are talking about.

MR LOWIES: I put it to you that that is why initially you did not also, in the first application which you say Mkhize completed, refer to the Boipatong massacre, you only referred to incidents happening pertaining to drive-by shootings in the application itself.

MR NOSENGA: I do not know what you are talking about sir.

MR LOWIES: That being the case Mr Nosenga, my instructions are to put to you that the unsigned affidavit has been laundered through the TRC system.

MR NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: You are a plot.

MR NOSENGA: Please reveal your source to me, who told you that?

MR LOWIES: What is your answer, these are serious allegations, what is your answer?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, would you describe yourself as somebody who was under the protection of Prince Vanana Zulu?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: Do you deny that he looked after you, that he protected you?

MR NOSENGA: I am saying that I do not know about it, nobody looked after me at kwaMadala, I looked after myself.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say he looked after him, does it mean, does it also include supporting him by providing food?

MR LOWIES: Yes, but I hope it is seen as a question and not a statement. It is a question not a statement of fact.

CHAIRPERSON: It may not - you are now referring to the time when he was at the hostel?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, whilst you were at the hostel, were you provided with food on some occasions by Mr Zulu?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, as part of the induna, they would provide us with food, even Darkie Chonco did so.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something here, Mr Lowies. You put the question to him originally in this form, you said do you deny - that is not a question, that is putting it to him if you put it in that way.

MR LOWIES: It is as a result of what he said, what he testified earlier, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Are you saying, just refer us to the section where this is what he says in his statement. Maybe you can look for it later and just refer us to it at some point, because the way it came across to me was that you were putting it to him that that is what Vanana Zulu will say and does he deny that this is what actually happened. This is why I was a bit surprised when you said to the Chair well, this is just a question, it is not a statement of fact.

MR LOWIES: I hear what you say. I think I will have to rephrase that, to clarify my stance regarding that and I also have to check my consultation notes regarding that aspect, if you could just bear with me, I apologise to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Move on to the next question.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, how did you survive at the hostel, on your version? You did not work?

CHAIRPERSON: He has just told us that his induna used to provide them with food on some occasions, Darkie Chonco is one of the persons he mentioned.

MR LOWIES: Was that the only way how you were able to survive in that the induna's were looking after you?

MR NOSENGA: I did state before that in other instances, we did steal vehicles and break into shops in town.

MR LOWIES: Now did Prince Vanana Zulu look after you in a similar manner that Darkie Chonco did?

MR NOSENGA: Sir, we were all treated the same way. The way Prince Zulu treated me, did not differ from the way that I was treated by Darkie Chonco.

MR LOWIES: So he also looked after you?

MR LAX: Mr Lowies, his answer to the original question was in the plural, he said the induna's looked after us, like Darkie and then he mentioned, I think he might have mentioned Prince Zulu as well.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, from the documents which we will hand in later, it will appear that you had close contact with Prince Vanana Zulu?

MS TANZER: I object to this line of questioning. Until these documents are produced before this Committee, I mean how can you refer to these documents, it is unknown?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we will accept the assurance of Counsel that he will produce those documents, is that right Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: We are trying to get hold of the original, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MR LOWIES: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What document is that?

MR LOWIES: The minutes of the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Which indicates that he had close contact with ...

MR LOWIES: From the contents thereof yes, it doesn't say we had close contact, but from the contents thereof, you could infer that. What is your answer?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know about that. I regarded him as one of the induna's. I was close to the induna's.

MR LOWIES: Now didn't you travel to - no, I rephrase, did you travel to Ulundi in a stolen vehicle?

MR NOSENGA: Sir, I do not know. We were travelling in Damara Chonco's kombi, I do not know if it was stolen or not.

MR LOWIES: So it was not Darkie's kombi, it was Damara's?

MR NOSENGA: I stated that it was Damara Chonco’s vehicle, but it was driven by Darkie Chonco when we travelled to Ulundi.

MR LOWIES: Damara is deceased but Darkie is still alive, not so?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know about that, I am incarcerated in prison. I cannot tell you anything about it.

MR LOWIES: But when your other applicants gave evidence, when you were here, did you not hear that they say that Damara has passed away?

MR NOSENGA: Sir, all I am saying to you is that I don't know that he passed away.

MR LOWIES: I want to put it to you the reason why you are implicating Darkie where everybody else is implicating Damara, is because you want to get at Darkie as well.

MR NOSENGA: That is not true. They are implicating Damara because he is deceased. I am not implicating anyone.

MR LOWIES: You testified earlier sir, regarding Mr Peens, there was no way if you bumped into Peens, that you would not be, in other words meaning that if he arrested you, that you would not be assaulted by him?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know what you are talking about. I said Peens assaulted me when I was still living in the township and I was arrested for a stolen vehicle, I do not know what you are referring to. The threats that happened in Vereeniging were different, at that time I was just threatened, I was not assaulted. That is different from the fact that he assaulted me earlier on when I was still living in the township.

MR LOWIES: Do you know whether he assaulted any other members of kwaMadala from what you have seen or heard?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know about that.

MR LOWIES: Where did you learn how to use an AK47? Who taught you?

MR NOSENGA: I first learnt in the township as well as in the hostel later on, so I cannot name just one person who taught me.

MR LOWIES: Who taught you in the township how to use a firearm such as an AK47?

MR NOSENGA: No one taught me, I taught myself. I would watch other people who would be carrying such firearms and I would watch how they unload or load them or how they assembled or dissembled them.

MR LOWIES: So can we take it then that before you arrival at kwaMadala, you already knew how to use a firearm such as an AK47?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know how to respond to your question because I have already stated that even in the hostel, I still had to learn, when I arrived at the hostel, I was not very good at it, but I perfected my skill there.

MR LOWIES: The point is, before you arrived at the hostel, you could already use a firearm, yes or no?

CHAIRPERSON: No, Mr Lowies, please let's just not go over one and the same thing, the man says he taught himself to use the AK47 whilst he was at the township and when he arrived at the hostel, he continued to improve his skills on how to use the AK47, that is a fact.

MR LOWIES: I will proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: When you attacked Boipatong that night sir, was everything done calmly or were you in a hurry, I am talking about the attackers?

MR NOSENGA: We took our time, because we were in the company of the Police. Maybe we would have been in a haste if we had been alone, but we were with the Police.

MR LOWIES: How long would you say were you in the company of the Police and were you in Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot tell a lie, I do not know.

MR LOWIES: You have no idea?

MR NOSENGA: I am saying I do not know. As I said before, I am uneducated so I did not check the time, I do not know anything about the time.

MR LOWIES: Sir, you were not scared at all that night?

MR NOSENGA: What was there to be afraid of, I was with the Police, they were leading us in front when we went to Boipatong, there was nothing to be afraid of.

MR LOWIES: Were they leading the attack?

MR NOSENGA: When we entered the township, we were with them. They were in front, riding in casspirs.

MR LOWIES: When you were in the hostel, did you have to make any contributions towards the purchasing of firearms and weapons?

MR NOSENGA: No, I did not contribute anything because I was unemployed.

MR LOWIES: Did you ever have a fall-out with Mr Victor Keswa?

MR NOSENGA: No, I do not remember.

MR LOWIES: Did you ever have trouble with Mr Hunter Ndlovu?

MR NOSENGA: No, I do not remember.

MR LOWIES: I would like you to turn to page 18 of Exhibit R please. This Exhibit, after it was taken from you, was it read back to you?

MR NOSENGA: No one ever read anything to me, they just took statements and left.

MR LOWIES: So you were never shown the statement and asked whether you agreed with the contents of the declaration and whether you understand the contents of the statement?

MR NOSENGA: No, I do not remember.

MR LOWIES: If you don't remember, can you remember whether it was read back to you, or do you know for a fact that it was not?

MS TANZER: Chair, in fairness to this applicant, as he says, he is illiterate, he's got no education, to ask him whether this was read back to him, he is not going to be able to identify that. He needs to know the contents to understand whether it has been read back to him or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you just let him answer the question if you can.

MR LOWIES: Would you answer please?

MR NOSENGA: What I started to say that I don't remember anybody reading it back to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember when you were in Groenpunt Prison in Vereeniging?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I do remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember when someone came to take a statement from you in December last year when your legal representative was also present?

MR NOSENGA: I is possible that I remember because my legal representative came to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember that occasion or don't you remember that occasion?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember very well.

MR LOWIES: Now, according to you you never had an ANC background, you were never a member of the ANC?

MR NOSENGA: That is true, I was never a member of the ANC.

MR LOWIES: Do you know an incident shortly before that Boipatong massacre, where a lady was necklaced for having had contact with kwaMadala hostel members? Her name is Nomvula.

MR NOSENGA: I remember the name.

MR LOWIES: Did you know her?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot say that I knew her, but I do remember the name. I knew the person but I cannot say that I was close to her or I knew her well.

MR LOWIES: Do you know about her murder?

MR NOSENGA: She was alleged to have been killed by people of Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: On the 18th, the day just after the Boipatong attack, what did you do? Maybe I should start off with the following. Did you go to sleep that night of the 17th at the hostel itself?

MR NOSENGA: I returned to the hostel and that is where I slept.

MR LOWIES: Did you attend any meeting there or did you go straight to bed after the attack?

MR NOSENGA: We went back to the stadium after the attack and we had to leave our weapons at the stadium, and we also received ntelezi to cleanse ourselves.

MR LOWIES: Yes, and then you went to sleep?

MR NOSENGA: Yes. I went to my room to sleep.

MR LOWIES: The next morning, what happened? What time did you wake up?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot recall the time. I cannot recall the time at which I woke up on the 18th.

MR LOWIES: And then, what did you do?

MR NOSENGA: I went to take a shower and then I went back to my room.

MR LOWIES: Did you stay in the room for the rest of the day?

MR NOSENGA: No, I did go out of my room and walked around the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Did you ever leave the premises of the hostel?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember.

MR LOWIES: The next day, were you still at the hostel, that is now the 19th?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Did anything significant happen on that day, pertaining to the attack at Boipatong? I am talking about the 19th?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, something did happen.

MR LOWIES: Yes, what happened?

MR NOSENGA: If I am not mistaken, I saw a large number of Police around the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Was that the first time you saw them, or did you already see them on the 18th, that is now the day after Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: If I am not mistaken, I cannot be certain if they had already been there from the 18th, but I saw them on the 19th.

MR LOWIES: Did they at any stage search the hostel in your presence?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember if they did, but at some point they did get into the hostel and searched the rooms after the Boipatong massacre.

MR LOWIES: Was Themba Khosa there?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot tell a lie, I do not know. I last saw Themba Khosa on the 18th when he came to collect the weapons. There were many Police around the hostel, some were in their private vehicles.

MR LOWIES: The Police that were around the hostel - sorry let me rephrase - you say there were Police around the hostel, do you mean they were there when Themba Khosa came to collect the firearms or are you now referring back to the 19th again?

MR NOSENGA: I am saying I only saw Themba Khosa for the last time on the 18th when he came to fetch the firearms, and I saw the Police on the 19th outside the hostel.

MR LOWIES: So you never saw Themba Khosa in the presence or in the company of any Police?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't want to tell a lie, I did not see him. There were many Police there.

MR LOWIES: You did not see Themba Khosa talking to the people whilst the Police were present on the premises after Boipatong, it doesn't matter whether it is the first, second or third day?

MR NOSENGA: No, I do not recall. I know that the Police came to search the hostel at night.

MR LOWIES: Did you do anything specifically on the 18th at the hostel premises pertaining to Boipatong, anything of note?

MR NOSENGA: You did ask me sir as to what I did on the 18th, I told you that I woke up and went to take a shower and went back to my room. I also walked around on the hostel premises.

MR LOWIES: That's all?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Are you sure? And on the 19th you didn't do anything specific either?

MR NOSENGA: I do not recall sir, I did indicate that to you.

MR LOWIES: You see if you were on the premises, surely you would have known about exhibits that were burnt, exhibits that were taken from Boipatong, loot?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, the loot was burnt. They said the stolen goods from Boipatong should be put on fire because that would be used as evidence, so to cover up, these things had to be burnt.

MR LOWIES: Why didn't you mention it? Were you not part of that?

MR NOSENGA: It is the induna's who ordered that these things should be burnt, I handed over what I had so that they could be burnt, so I did not personally participate in the actual burning.

MR LOWIES: Who did you hand your items to?

MR NOSENGA: I gave them to Darkie Chonco.

MR LOWIES: What did you give to Darkie Chonco?

MR NOSENGA: (No translation)

MR LOWIES: It was not translated, I didn't - a TV and a video? CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, don't swallow your last words. What was the last thing you said, was it that you don't remember? The others?

MR NOSENGA: I said I gave him a video as well as a TV set, those are the things.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR NOSENGA: I gave Darkie Chonco.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, didn't you say (indistinct), you didn't say that?

MR NOSENGA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Please speak up and slowly so that we can hear. Don't swallow your last words.

MR LOWIES: Was that the only loot that you took on the night of the attack?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LOWIES: I am not asking what was burnt, I am talking about what you took, do you understand the difference?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I am saying yes, those are the only things that I stole from Boipatong, the video and the TV set.

MR LOWIES: You didn't steal money?

MR NOSENGA: I did take money, yes, I did take money.

MR LOWIES: So why didn't you tell us initially about that as well, I asked you specifically was that all and you said yes. Now you say you did take money, what is the truth?

MR NOSENGA: I did not get you well, I did not take the money to be burnt as well, I only submitted the video and the TV set to be burnt, not the money.

MR LOWIES: Why are you implicating Darkie Chonco, have you got a quarrel with him?

CHAIRPERSON: Just wait a minute. Just repeat the answer that you have just given slowly. You had been asked why didn't you mention that you also stole money, what was your response, slowly?

MR NOSENGA: He asked me what things I handed over to be burnt at the hostel, things that I took from the hostel, from Boipatong, I said I took the video, a video and a TV. He did not ask me about money. Had he asked me about that, I would have indicated that I could not have taken the money to be burnt, I had used that for, that was to be used for buying ...

CHAIRPERSON: So you say that he only asked you about things that were burnt?

MR NOSENGA: He asked me what goods I had stolen from Boipatong and I said I took a video as well as a TV set, and he asked me to whom I gave these goods to be burnt and I indicated that I gave them to Darkie Chonco to be burnt. He did not ask me about money, yes, I did take the money of course.

CHAIRPERSON: He asked you what did you give to Chonco and you said it was a TV and a video?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Then he asked you were these the only things that you stole from Boipatong.

MR NOSENGA: Yes, he did ask me that.

CHAIRPERSON: And your answer was "yes."

MR NOSENGA: Yes, but yes, I also took money actually. That is how I answered, but I also took money.

MR SIBANYONI: Can I ask you a question, why didn't you mention the money as well?

MR NOSENGA: I did not get him well, I did not get him well, sometimes I have a problem with the headset. I could not have burnt the money, the only things that I gave to Darkie was the TV and the video to be burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, if you have a problem with the headset, let us know. Do you want that to be replaced, does it give you a problem?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I did indicate that I don't receive well, my reception is not quite good.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, good we please have another headset?

MR LAX: If you just put that in the front, further forward, that should do it. It is not really comfortable ...

MS TANZER: No, the headset is broken.

MR LAX: Can you hear?

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Lowies, I don't remember your question, was it saying what loot did you steal at Boipatong, or what goods did you steal in Boipatong?

MR LOWIES: I think I said goods.

MR SIBANYONI: Goods?

MR LOWIES: Yes. I don't know, I can't ...

MR LAX: I have written the word items here, that is what it was translated.

MR LOWIES: It is more my style. Mr Nosenga, then I specifically asked you, I am not just asking about items that were supposed to be burnt and I said to you, do you understand the difference between items that were supposed to be burnt and anything else and you said yes. I specifically asked you whether you understood what I am asking you. I drew a difference, a distinction, why did you answer "yes"?

MR NOSENGA: I did not get your question very well. Will you please distinguish between your questions.

MR LOWIES: I don't follow your problem, what do you want me to do?

MR NOSENGA: The question that you are asking me.

MR LOWIES: I specifically asked you and I stated to you Mr Nosenga, I am not just talking about items that were supposed to be burnt, I am talking about everything else, was that all that you took, and you said yes. I asked you did you understand the distinction and you said yes. That was the nature of my question. Where could the confusion come in?

CHAIRPERSON: But he has told us that he didn't understand the question, his headphones were not clear, he couldn't hear the Interpreter.

MR LOWIES: Regarding your headphones that were not clear, I specifically heard you saying that you already complained about the headset that was not working, when did you complain about that because nobody heard you doing that?

MR NOSENGA: I indicated just now that my reception is poor and it is difficult to get the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the situation now, can you hear him, can you hear the Interpreter?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it clear?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, isn't the truth the following, whenever you are in a corner, you blame either the Interpreter or the headset or whatever, but you do not want to admit that you are telling lies?

MR NOSENGA: No, that is not correct. If I don't understand, that is it, I don't understand.

MR LOWIES: Well, I want you to reflect on your answers pertaining to your knowledge of the Sotho language, because we are going to call Detective Sergeant Kuni who would be giving evidence that he translated a whole confession that you made, from Sotho to Afrikaans, in other words that he was speaking Sotho to you and that you responded in Sotho to him, in other words you can speak Sotho quite well.

MR NOSENGA: I don't know anything about that, I also speak Zulu at home.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, listen to the question. If you don't understand it, let me know so that I can repeat the question. What Counsel is saying to you is that he is going to call a Police Officer who translated a confession that you made, from Afrikaans into Sotho to you. Do you understand that?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I do understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you replied, you spoke to him in Sotho as well?

MR NOSENGA: I do understand that, he can call that person. I don't know what he is talking about, my father is Zulu and I too speak the language.

CHAIRPERSON: So you deny that the confession was translated to you in Sotho?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I deny that. I don't know where he gets that from. I speak Zulu even in jail, they can go to Leeukop and ask the authorities there what language I speak, I don't know where it comes from. They should go to my home as well and ask what language I speak, my mother is Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and you also deny that you spoke back to this Sergeant Kuni in Sotho?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I deny that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR LOWIES: Now regarding Mr Keswa, I have already put to you that Keswa was in custody physically on the 17th of June 1992.

MR NOSENGA: I did say to you that I only saw Victor Keswa for the last time during the day of the 17th.

MR LOWIES: I want you to reflect, are you hundred percent sure on your version, Keswa was there on the 17th, you saw him, not necessarily going into Boipatong, but you saw him at the hostel, there is no ...

CHAIRPERSON: What other assurance do you really want? The man has said repeatedly that he last saw Mr Keswa on the 17th, during the day. He didn't see him the evening.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair. I would like to put it to you sir, that you have implicated Mr Keswa in the past for offences which he also did not commit, because he was in custody.

MR NOSENGA: I don't know anything about that. I said he was there on the 15th in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he implicate Mr Keswa, in these proceedings or in other proceedings?

MR LOWIES: No, in a confession he made to the Police. Do you agree with that?

ADV SIGODI: Mr Lowies, I think in fairness to the applicant, you should try to be more specific as to when he implicated Mr Keswa in offences, which in fact he did not do.

MR LOWIES: May I just ask an indulgence, I just want to get some documents with your permission Chairman. There are so many, I can't have them all in front of me. Mr Nosenga, according to the Police docket in the case where you were convicted, you mentioned an incident where you, Hunter Ndlovu, Victor Keswa, Papie, Mzwake and Sipho left from kwaMadala hostel to Sebokeng, you were driving a 3 litre Ford Cortina, Hunter was the driver, the purpose was to shoot at comrades, members of the comrades. Do you know anything about this?

MR NOSENGA: I said I don't know anything about that, I said Tswi was the driver, not Hunter Ndlovu. Hunter Ndlovu was present as well as Tswi and Ndlandla Xindi. I don't know anything about Sipho, Papie and Mzwake. I only mentioned them after I was beaten up. I don't know anything about ...

CHAIRPERSON: Is that a confession you are reading?

MR LOWIES: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What Counsel is reading to you is a confession which you are supposed to have made to the Police, do you understand that?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I do sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember making a confession?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I understand that. Yes, I do remember sir, but I did not include Sipho.

CHAIRPERSON: In the confession itself?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I did not implicate Sipho.

MR LAX: Did you at the time you were being interrogated and tortured, did you tell them anything about Sipho that might have been written down somewhere?

MR NOSENGA: No, I do not recall, but people whose names I mentioned to avoid being beaten up was Papie and Mzwake, not Sipho.

MR LOWIES: What about Hunter Ndlovu, did you mention his name?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, Hunter was present. I did mention that here at the Committee as well.

MR LOWIES: Did you mention Victor Keswa?

MR NOSENGA: I mentioned it here that Gatiza was present, I did not mention it to the Police and I gave you the reason why I did not mention his name, he was as a result not arrested. If I had mentioned his name, he would also have been arrested.

MR LOWIES: In this document I find something funny, you describe the charge for which you are convicted, but you mention the date as being early in December 1992, can you give us an explanation why this happened?

MR NOSENGA: That must be a mistake, I was not arrested in December.

MR LOWIES: No, but that is not the question, the question is you said ...

MR NOSENGA: The incident happened in 1992 and I was arrested in 1993. I was sentenced in 1995.

MR LOWIES: Is it your version sir, that you were tortured to admit this specific offence of which the Police already had knowledge? In other words they already knew somebody was murdered and they wanted you to admit that it was you and others?

MR NOSENGA: That is so. They knew that I resided at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Did they at that stage know that you were involved in the shooting, the drive-by shooting and just wanted you to admit this so that they could use it in court, or what was the situation?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, because they assaulted me.

MR LOWIES: What did they want from you in your words, to admit?

MR NOSENGA: The offences that occurred at Sebokeng, the shooting of people.

MR LOWIES: You see, why I am asking you this, if necessary we will lead evidence regarding this, the Police did not know at that stage when you confessed, when the offences were committed, where they were committed and your complicity. That is why we also see here they thought the offence was committed in December 1992, because you told them that?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, what is the value of a document which admits of coercion and torture?

MR LOWIES: It is denied that it was as a result of torture, as a matter of fact, it is very relevant to the applicant's ...

CHAIRPERSON: The man says I was tortured to make that confession.

MR LOWIES: Chair, I am not trying to prove that he committed the offences, that is common cause. What I submit is the following, I submit that from this evidence we will be able to see that he handed himself over voluntarily to the Police and there is a reason for that. That reason has to be explored further.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you see, if a person says in these hearings that what you are reading from, is a document which was obtained as a result of torture, what value is that document to this Commission?

MR LOWIES: I would say it is relevant regarding the contents thereof firstly, because it shows his knowledge thereof. Secondly, whether the language that is spoke because this is also relevant, whether he indeed submitted that evidence in Sotho and thirdly, I would say that if there is a motive for making this document and for implicating people, it goes further.

CHAIRPERSON: He does not deny that he made the confession as I understand his evidence. What is in issue is whether he made that confession voluntarily. You are free to canvass who interpreted the confession to him, that is another issue, but when you begin to deal with the contents and when you tax him on what is contained in that document, what value is that in the light of his direct evidence before us as to what happened and when it happened?

MR LOWIES: But may I not be able to rebut it if it is not the truth?

CHAIRPERSON: Then you will call evidence, you lay a proper foundation for its (indistinct).

MR LOWIES: But Chair, it may not be necessary if he admits it, it may not be necessary if he admits that the situation is as such, and then I don't have to call extra witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, you will bear in mind that this is not a court of law, this is an administrative, these are administrative proceedings, this is an enquiry, this is not a criminal trial. This man is not accused before us of the Sebokeng shootings. Your cross-examination on matters which are not directly relevant to these issues, is limited. You should know better.

MR LOWIES: I agree with you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not going to allow you to keep on cross-examining this man on issues which he has made it clear that he denies, because this is a document which he denies. If a man says I was tortured to make this document, you know, there's got to be some limits on the extent to which one can rely on that document, even if to raise issues of credibility, do you understand what I am saying?

MR LOWIES: Yes, I do Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. It is one thing to find out whether a particular statement is the truth or not, but to suggest to him how the Police would have obtained that information, where would that take us to?

MR LOWIES: I agree with you Chair, I will rephrase.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Were you involved in any other shootings after June 1992?

MS TANZER: With respect, I object Chair. We have dealt with this before, and besides the Boipatong, he is not here to incriminate himself in any other manner.

MR LOWIES: I would submit that it is relevant. The relevance is the following, it is my instructions that he was fleeing from the law and from everybody else at the time, and that is relevant, because it shows a motive why he is applying for amnesty. I don't want to go too deep into that, but that is the crux of the matter, there is relevance and it is very pertinent to this matter. I would not ...

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat ...

MR LOWIES: I am sorry Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat your answer.

MR LOWIES: Chair, I hear that whenever I put something like that to him, it must be relevant. It is relevant to a motive. I don't want to say too much, because that will inhibit my cross-examination, but it is relevant to a motive. This man was on the run, this is my instructions, and one of the reasons why he acted as he did, then and now, is as a result of that. That I would like to explore, otherwise I would not be able to get to the motive. That I would submit is very relevant.

CHAIRPERSON: A motive for applying for amnesty in this matter?

MR LOWIES: And for falsely incriminating my clients and others.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR LOWIES: Thank you.

MS TANZER: I didn't get that.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your response?

MS TANZER: Well to ask him to confess or to admit to other offences, is asking him to incriminate himself with regard to information that is not before any court of law on which in fact, it is his constitutional right and his right in terms of the Criminal Procedure Act, not to incriminate himself. He has the right to remain silent and now he is being asked to come forward and confess to crimes which allegedly, it is almost, it is a fishing expedition. It is not crimes that are known to my learned colleague, but he is trying to find out if there is any crimes that he has committed, and I think it is an infringement of his rights.

CHAIRPERSON: I will allow the question.

MR LOWIES: I December 1992, did you commit any crimes such as drive-by shootings?

MR NOSENGA: No. I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: I would like to put it to you sir, that the confession that you made, is almost two and a half pages and you give a lot of detail, and you would not have been able to give that detail to the Police, if you were not able to understand the Sotho Interpreter.

MS TANZER: In fairness once again to the applicant, it has not been put to him whether he actually signed this confession. If one looks at the signature, it actually differs from every other signature I have seen. I mean that question at least should be put first, whether he even signed such a document.

MR NOSENGA: That is not my signature. That is not how I sign. It must have been the Police who wrote this.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, are you denying that you had any conversation with the Police so that they could get sufficient information to charge you and convict you?

MR NOSENGA: I stated before sir, that I was arrested in Parys, thereafter transferred to Vereeniging where I was assaulted and that is how I got to confess.

MR LOWIES: And what you said, was it produced to writing?

MR NOSENGA: What I am saying is that a statement was taken from me and I was assaulted by Mr Havenga and others in the process of taking the statement. I don't know what else you want me to say now.

MR LOWIES: If you say a statement was taken, does that mean it was taken down, it was produced to writing?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, they did write it down when they were carrying on with their assaults.

MR LOWIES: And is it your version sir, do you deny that you were taken to Lieutenant Heinrich Kalp?

MR NOSENGA: Please repeat the name?

MR LOWIES: Heinrich Kalp.

MR NOSENGA: I don't remember that person. It is possible that I may have been taken before him, but everything that happened, was as a result of my assault, of those assaults on me. Everything then was under the white government, and I had not (indistinct) to confess to those crimes.

MR LOWIES: The point is taken that you were assaulted. Were you also assaulted to put your signature on the documents?

MR NOSENGA: That is not my signature.

MR LOWIES: Were you assaulted to put your signature on any document, not necessarily this one? Don't look at documentation, just listen to the question first.

MR LAX: Mr Nosenga, did you sign any documents while you were with the Police as a result of any assaults or tortures? Yes or no or you can't remember, it is up to you?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember well.

MR LOWIES: A certain document was shown to you by your legal advisor, was that one signed by you and I am referring to a document which is marked A6, Mr Chairman.

INTERPRETER: The current speaker was off line, we could not hear.

MR LOWIES: Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that document before us?

MR LOWIES: No Chair, I wanted to do it during the tea adjournment, which I think is an appropriate time because ...

CHAIRPERSON: Just go on and finish this point.

MR LOWIES: Chair, may I enquire what time are we going to take the tea adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you are referring to?

MR LOWIES: I was referring him to Annexure A6, fourth and fifth pages. Is that your signature?

MR NOSENGA: No, that is not how I sign.

CHAIRPERSON: Speak out Mr Nosenga.

MR NOSENGA: I am saying that I did not sign this way, this is illegible.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that it is not clear whether it is your signature or whether - what are you saying?

MR NOSENGA: It is not legible, I do not remember well if I did sign this document. It is possible that I may have signed it.

CHAIRPERSON: Look at that signature at the bottom, tell us whether is this your signature or whether it isn't your signature.

MR NOSENGA: That is not how I sign.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: May the document be handed in as Exhibit U Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on) Would somebody continue counting those pages and ..

MR LOWIES: If you want me, I will let my Attorney paginate it for you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, did you see any place there on these documents where you signed?

CHAIRPERSON: Has he gone ...

MR LOWIES: I think his representative has gone through the documents with him, is that true?

MR NOSENGA: That is not my signature.

MR LOWIES: You are referring to the second last ... Chair, I think the best would be if the documents are paginated.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed and let him have some ...

MR LOWIES: May I enquire when we are going to take the tea adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, perhaps during the break, he should just go over the document and then let us know which ones are his.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any other questions?

MR LOWIES: I think it will be best now to take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MR LOWIES: I think it will be appropriate to take the adjournment now.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we will come back at 20 past 11.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (s.u.o)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LOWIES: (cont)

Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nosenga, you had the opportunity of going through the whole of Exhibit U with your Attorney, with your legal representative, is it correct during the adjournment? I am talking about signatures appearing thereon?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I am sorry just for the record, my learned friend said Exhibit T, is it not Exhibit U?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, would you please stop confusing us?

MR LOWIES: I think my learned friend is confused, but I thought I said U, but I apologise to everybody, let's go on.

CHAIRPERSON: Those who are listening are better judges of what you are saying.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, your signature, does it appear on any of these documents?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Where does it appear?

MR NOSENGA: This is my name, Matanzima.

MR LOWIES: Which document are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Tanzer, did you go through this document with the applicant?

MS TANZER: I did do that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, would you indicate to us what signatures are being admitted as being that of his if any?

MS TANZER: He admits to having signed a document numbered U.

CHAIRPERSON: That whole bundle is U, but unfortunately it is not paginated.

MS TANZER: Okay, right, exactly, page 4. The statement we were dealing with previously, prior to the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Did someone number this document?

MR LOWIES: Unfortunately yours was not available to be numbered.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, just give us the number, this is U4?

MR LOWIES: I have one ready for you which is numbered, Chair, if that will assist you?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Shall I keep this? Thank you very much. So it is U4?

MS TANZER: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: What about U5?

MS TANZER: Yes, he confirmed that that is his signature as well on U5. The document from page 26 onwards, 27, 28 - yes the document from page 26 until page 31, the applicant denies having signed, that is not his signature he says.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not from U27?

MS TANZER: Yes, I have just numbered it differently, yes, U27.

MR LOWIES: No, it is U26.

MS TANZER: Well, on our - on their bundle is 27.

MR LOWIES: I think, yes, there are 37 pages in my bundle, 38 some of the other bundles.

MS TANZER: The document that starts "vir gebruik deur offisiere alleen".

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MS TANZER: That document.

MR LAX: It is marked A22.

MS TANZER: A22, yes. That is not his signature, he also notes that there is a "P" instead of an "N", so definitely ...

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, just so that there is no confusion to the extent that this document may have some relevance, just re-check the two bundles at some point, to just make sure that we have the same documents. Unfortunately we don't deal with arithmetic every day, I can understand the problem.

MR LOWIES: That is why I am a lawyer Chairperson. Mr Nosenga, there you admit your signature, the statement was taken by Van der Mescht, a Police Officer?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is where the name Matanzima appears.

MR LOWIES: Do you know the name of this chap, Van der Mescht?

MR NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: Can't recall him at all?

MR NOSENGA: No, I do not recall him.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, you testified earlier on that you handed your items to be burnt to Darkie Chonco, but that cannot be the situation because in your statement to Mr Kjellberg from the TRC ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, for our benefit, when you go to another document, let us know.

MR LOWIES: I will do so Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Because at the moment I have U in front of me. Have you finished with U?

MR LOWIES: I would like to turn to R now, I am finished with U.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't come back to it. All right, so you are onto R?

MR LOWIES: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: right?

MR LAX: Just to assist you Mr Lowies, just to assist you Mr Lowies, the pronunciation of that man is Kjellberg as if it was an "Sh".

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair. On page 22 of Exhibit R you indicated to Mr Kjellberg "I destroyed the TV and threw it away on a rubbish dump."

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MR LOWIES: That is under paragraph 22, the last sentence thereof, page 22, paragraph 22. What is the true situation?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know. I said I gave the TV and the video to Darkie Chonco. I did not throw this into a rubbish dump.

MR LOWIES: So what is said here is then patently wrong on your version?

MR NOSENGA: I am saying I don't know anything about that which is written there. I have been asked several times as to what I did with the TV and the video, and I indicated that I handed these over to Darkie Chonco, not that I took this to a rubbish dump.

MR LOWIES: It appears to me that you have a bone to pick with Darkie, is that not so?

MR NOSENGA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the situation that the statement which says "I destroyed the TV and threw it away on a rubbish dump", that is not correct?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I am saying I gave the TV to Darkie Chonco, the TV and the video at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: You will recall that this issue came about as a result of questioning pertaining to the happenings on the 18th, the day after the Boipatong massacre? I am asking you again, besides the burning of the loot, did anything of significance happen that day pertaining to Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: No, I do not recall. I indicated that on the 18th, I went for a shower and came back to my room to change my clothes.

MR LOWIES: How long have you showered if you have to give us an estimation?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot know.

MR LOWIES: Do you know anything of a pending attack or a threatening attack on kwaMadala hostel by anybody on that specific day?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just hold on a second? Just before you go on, the paragraph to which Counsel has just referred you to, that is paragraph 22, it doesn't talk about the video does it?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know sir, but I took the TV and the video.

CHAIRPERSON: And money?

MR NOSENGA: Yes sir, money too.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give the money to Darkie as well?

MR NOSENGA: No, I did not give him the money. I gave him the TV as well as the video.

MR LOWIES: Are you sure you took the video, because there is nothing in the statement indicating that you also took the video?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, he has just said that.

MR LOWIES: Sorry Chair, to proceed then, the question is it appears to me that this is something that you had sucked out of your thumb, because you didn't mention it to Kjellberg?

MR NOSENGA: No, I did take the video and the TV, I am not sucking this from my thumb.

MR LOWIES: Where did you, or how did you manage to get these items to Boipatong, to kwaMadala from Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: They were transported in the casspir. We came back on foot, and the induna's and the Police were travelling back to the hostel in this casspir.

MR LOWIES: But I am going to put it to you that there were passengers in this casspir, it would have been impossible to put the loot in the casspir, plus passengers?

MR NOSENGA: The casspir was not transporting people any more, we came back on foot.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Lowies - yes.

MR LOWIES: But what about the Policemen?

MR NOSENGA: I am saying the Police were also involved in the Boipatong incident.

MR LOWIES: No, but were they not transported in the casspir?

MR NOSENGA: The Police are the ones who delivered these stolen goods at kwaMadala hostel, they were accompanied by the induna's.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Counsel wants to find out from you is if the items that were stolen from Boipatong on the night of the attack, were transported back to kwaMadala in the casspirs, how did the Police then travel because there would have been no space for them in the casspirs?

MR NOSENGA: Maybe you did not get me well, there were four casspirs, not one casspir. There were four of these casspirs.

MR LOWIES: But if everybody took loot from Boipatong, then all the casspirs in any event, would have been full?

CHAIRPERSON: No one has suggested as far as we know, that everyone stole items.

MR LOWIES: Let's check this then, is it not so that all the casspirs on your version, were full with stolen loot?

MR NOSENGA: I did not say that. I said yes, there were stolen items in the casspirs.

MR LOWIES: Is it your version that the induna's also returned to kwaMadala inside the casspirs?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, some of them.

MR LOWIES: Who were they, the ones who were in the casspirs that you know?

MR NOSENGA: I remember Gatchene and Darkie Chonco. I cannot remember the others very well.

MR LOWIES: But Darkie is not even an induna?

MR NOSENGA: But he had a leadership position, I don't know what position he held, but he had a position at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: And what that was, is unknown to you and you are serious? I want to put it to you that you are telling lies regarding Darkie.

MR NOSENGA: I am telling the truth.

MR LOWIES: The two weeks preceding the Boipatong massacre, your evidence was that there was a meeting held at the hostel, where was this meeting held? That was where the decision to attack, was taken, on your version.

MR NOSENGA: No sir, I said that a meeting was held two weeks prior, a meeting where it was resolved that Boipatong should be attacked, but the date was not mentioned.

MR LOWIES: Yes, the question is where was that meeting held?

MR NOSENGA: The meeting was held at the stadium at the hostel, that is where Themba Khosa was present.

MR LOWIES: But your statement, paragraph 5 on page 19 reads that it was in a big hall.

MS TANZER: With respect, I did clarify that in my examination in chief, when he said the hall he actually meant the stadium, that was one of the issues we clarified.

MR LOWIES: But still, I think the witness should answer.

CHAIRPERSON: But it is traversed, we have traversed that.

MR LOWIES: Not in cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was covered at some point.

MR LOWIES: Chair, I will leave it at that then.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: And on your version, who was present? Could everybody attend or just the induna's or what?

MR NOSENGA: Themba Khosa was present as well, that is the meeting that was held two weeks prior to the attack. He was accompanied by a Policeman called Peens, he was in the company of a Police called Peens.

MR LOWIES: Women and children, were they allowed at the meeting?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, every hostel resident was summoned to the meeting.

MR LOWIES: And here in the open, Peens is also there, standing next to Khosa, is that what you are trying to say?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is what I am saying.

MR LOWIES: Now was Peens just part of the audience, or did he also take part in the meeting?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot recall quite well, but he was present at the meeting, he was accompanied by Themba Khosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, I was under the impression that the issue in regard to the hall and the stadium, was canvassed at the beginning of your cross-examination, but it would appear that it is a matter which was only canvassed during the evidence in chief, so in cross-examination, it has not.

MR LOWIES: If I then am allowed, I will return to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Just after this matter. Yes Mr Nosenga, what is your answer?

MR NOSENGA: Will you please repeat the question.

MR LOWIES: Did Peens take part in the meeting or was he just a member of the audience?

MR NOSENGA: I am saying he was standing with Themba Khosa, but yes, he was present at the meeting and other induna's and residents of the hostel, kwaMadala hostel.

MR LOWIES: Now we have heard your evidence that Mtwana Zulu was not present on the day, you can't say whether he was present on the day of the attack on Boipatong. Do you know whether he was present on this specific day, that is now when Peens and Themba Khosa had a meeting which is denied?

MR NOSENGA: I said I did not see him, there were many induna's at the meeting.

MR LOWIES: And you are now talking, remember, about the meeting where Themba Khosa and Peens was, you did not see Mtwana, correct?

MR NOSENGA: I say I did not see him, there were many people at the meeting.

MR LOWIES: Who made speeches there, just Themba Khosa or not?

MR NOSENGA: Speeches were delivered by people like Gatchene and Themba Khosa agreed with him that Boipatong should be attacked. The residents agreed as well.

MR LOWIES: The Police Officers that were there, Peens, he did not say anything? He did not hold a speech?

MR NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall quite well.

MR LOWIES: Was there any other member of the Police there, but Peens?

MR NOSENGA: I am saying Themba Khosa came in the company of Peens. I only knew many other Police on the day, the evening of the attack on Boipatong. I only saw Peens at the hostel on the day of the meeting.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, I have to put it to you that you are telling lies. Firstly, in your statement to Mr Kjellberg you specifically mentioned that Darkie, a member of Murder and Robbery Unit in Everton, was also present. Now you say it was only Peens, what is the situation?

MR NOSENGA: Which other Police are you saying, was present?

MR LOWIES: Danie?

MR NOSENGA: I said Peens not Danie, Peens.

MR LOWIES: But in your statement you say Danie was also, and I repeat also, present, do you deny this now?

MR NOSENGA: Danie was present on the evening of the attack on Boipatong, yes, I agree he was present on the day of the attack on Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: You also state in this paragraph 5 that the other people who held speeches there when Themba Khosa and Peens was there, was Mtwana Zulu. Now you say he wasn't there?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that. I said Gatchene delivered a speech. It is Gatchene who delivered a speech.

MR LOWIES: Did Darkie hold a speech?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot recall. I cannot recall quite well.

MR LOWIES: What was the reason for the attack as conveyed on this meeting, this is now two weeks before the massacre?

MR NOSENGA: I was not told, they just said Boipatong should be attacked and they did not tell me why.

MR LOWIES: Did Mr Khosa hold a speech or did he just confirm what was said by Darkie, by Gatchene, my mistake, by Gatchene?

MR NOSENGA: He said, Gatchene said Boipatong should be attacked and Themba Khosa agreed with him. That is what I heard him say, I actually heard him agreeing with him.

MR LOWIES: How did he agree, how do you know he agreed?

MR NOSENGA: He was speaking Zulu. Gatchene said Boipatong should be attacked and he agreed with him, he said it in Zulu. He was not speaking English or Afrikaans.

MR LOWIES: Can you recall any specific words that Khosa said?

MR NOSENGA: No, I remember him agreeing with the suggestion that Boipatong should be attacked.

MR LOWIES: In the same paragraph you make mention of the fact that the meeting was held in a big hall and everybody attended the meeting in a hall.

MR NOSENGA: No, I did not say at the hall, I mentioned the stadium, not at a hall. There is no hall at the hostel. The hall is in Zone 14 in Mphatlalatsane.

MR LOWIES: What?

MR NOSENGA: There is a stadium right inside the hostel. The hall is at Mphatlalatsane in Zone 14. There is no hall at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: What are you trying to say, were there also speeches made at that hall?

CHAIRPERSON: He is telling you that there is no hall at the hostel, it is just a stadium, the hall is in Mphatlalatsane.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair. Mr Nosenga, with respect, I want to put it to you that when you initially made statements implicating the Police Officers, you did so because of a motive, and that is why you can't recall everything that you told Mr Kjellberg, because now you deny a lot of things which was said to him pertaining to the involvement of Police Officers.

MR NOSENGA: No, the Police were involved, I am saying the Police were involved. Those are the ones who were leading us on our way to Boipatong. I don't know what you are trying to say. Are you trying to exonerate the Police and leaders of Inkatha? They were present on the evening of the attack.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, why would Mr Kjellberg make mistakes like these, let me list them for you. Just in one paragraph, and it pertains to a paragraph where you implicate the Police. Firstly according to what you told him, it was a big hall. You say no, it was a stadium. Secondly according to you Mtwana, that is what you told Kjellberg, Mtwana Zulu held a speech - would you just bear with me - now you deny it. Thirdly, according to you a certain Danie was there, that is when you made the statement to Mr Kjellberg, today you deny it. And Danie was not only there, he also made a speech, today you deny it. It appears to me that you had a motive previously to implicate as many people as possible and that you have forgotten which facts you conveyed to the Investigating Unit, not so?

MR NOSENGA: No, that is not true, there were Police. Peens was present at the stadium not in the hall.

MR LOWIES: Was a reason given, I know that they said Boipatong must be attack, was a reason given by Themba Khosa for the attack?

MR NOSENGA: I did say that I only heard him agreeing with the suggestion by Gatchene and the induna's that Boipatong should be attacked.

MR LOWIES: Did anybody say that the dogs or the insects should be killed?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Who said so?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot recall very well, but he said dogs should be killed. He said everybody who was residing at Boipatong should be killed.

MR LOWIES: Who said this?

MR NOSENGA: I do not recall quite well.

MR LOWIES: I still want to know what was the reason for the attack? Was that conveyed to you, yes or no?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, he has repeatedly told us that he was not told the reason for the attack.

MR LOWIES: Did Themba Khosa not say that many members of Inkatha were killed in the location, and that that was the reason for the attack?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know anything about that. I don't.

MR LOWIES: Did Themba Khosa refer to the residents as dogs?

MR NOSENGA: I said I don't know exactly who said dogs should be killed, but I cannot recall who exactly.

MR LOWIES: Did anybody say that the residents of Boipatong are not human beings?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know. I just know that somebody said dogs should be killed.

MR LOWIES: Because in your statement in paragraph 6 you say

"... Themba Khosa also told us to kill the dogs, again referring to Boipatong residents, because they were not human beings ...",

now you say you don't know about that?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: And according to you Mr Peens did not speak on that occasion?

MR NOSENGA: I said I don't know quite well, I cannot remember.

MR LOWIES: Because on Monday when led by your Counsel, you said that Peens spoke in Afrikaans which was translated? It is also in the statement of Kjellberg? It is not true?

MR NOSENGA: I do not recall quite well.

MR LOWIES: So if I put it to you as a fact Mr Peens did not speak there, you cannot deny it?

MR NOSENGA: I am saying I do not recall, but Peens was present at the meeting at the stadium at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: You cannot recall anything that he said?

MR NOSENGA: I am saying I cannot recall.

MR LOWIES: Now according to this statement, according to your statement Peens and Danie both said there that they would supply weapons. You deny that Danie was there at all?

MR NOSENGA: I am saying the one person that I saw was Peens.

MR LOWIES: Was anything said about Chief Buthelezi at the meeting?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I beg your pardon, did you see Danie at that meeting?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I did.

MR LOWIES: Chair, may I enquire, Danie or Darkie?

CHAIRPERSON: Danie.

MR LOWIES: But Mr Nosenga, you have just said on two previous occasions, you did not see him there, now to the Chairman you say he was there, what is the situation?

MR NOSENGA: I did not get you quite well, I did not understand him quite well, Peens was present. Peens was present, not Danie.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you this, Danie and Darkie, are these two different people?

MR NOSENGA: Darkie is a black person, Peens and Danie are white people and Darkie is Darkie Chonco and then there is Danie and Peens. Peens and Danie are working for the Murder and Robbery Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: And Darkie, this is Darkie Chonco?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Was Danie present at the meeting, did you see him at the meeting?

MR NOSENGA: No, Peens. Peens was present.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR LOWIES: Now in another paragraph you still said, you still say the following

"... Peens and Danie also said that they would supply Rooikop with weapons ...",

so both of them spoke according to the statement made to Mr Kjellberg?

MR NOSENGA: No, I reject that. Peens was present at the meeting.

MR LOWIES: So must I then take it that nothing was said regarding Peens and weapons, whether he would supply weapons?

MR NOSENGA: Sir, I still maintain that I did not hear Peens talking. There are people who spoke to the effect that dogs should be killed, but I cannot recall who.

MR LOWIES: But we are moving on now sir, you must listen to the question. Is it your version that nothing was said regarding the supply of weapons by Peens? In other words that Peens would supply weapons?

MR NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall very well, but Peens was at the meeting.

MR LOWIES: So to summarise, you would not know what Peens was doing there as you sit here today, you just saw him there, am I correct? If not, please indicate sir.

MR NOSENGA: I just saw him standing there with Themba Khosa.

MR LOWIES: In this statement to Mr Kjellberg you state that

"... I know that Themba Khosa used to deliver guns to the hostel ...",

do you agree with this portion of your statement?

MR NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: So, Themba Khosa never used to deliver guns to the hostel?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know sir, I would not say he did or not. He used to come to the hostel even though not every day.

MR LOWIES: Your statement is quite clear and I quote

"... I know that Themba Khosa used to deliver guns to the hostel ...",

you deny the correctness of your knowledge?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: Then you go on, these guns, we used to keep them in the ceiling.

MR LAX: Sorry, just stop for a second please. You guys are not pressing the button correctly, we are getting the Zulu translation on the English channel, if you can just be aware of that please.

MR LOWIES: Thank you, that will assist. What do you say about this statement

"... we used to keep them in the ceiling ..."?

MR NOSENGA: The guns used to be hidden in the ceiling, it is a rotten ceiling near the showers at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Did anybody say at that stage that the Police would be assisting or not? Assisting in the attack?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot remember, but I remember it being said that the Police were going to be part of the attack on Boipatong, they were going to support us with their casspirs.

MR LOWIES: Who said this?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot remember very well, there were many people there, the induna's. I was also there, listening as a member of the IFP. There is nothing much I can say, I am just a follower and if a decision has been taken, I just do as instructed.

MR LOWIES: Now did Peens say that he would supply casspirs, according to you, in other words, Peens say he would, very important?

MR NOSENGA: I am saying I cannot recall because we did find casspirs at the veld near Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: Now was there any other meeting held after this, before the attack?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, there was a meeting held on the 14th, three days before the attack.

MR LOWIES: How do you recall this day, the date? Is there any specific reason why you can remember the date?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, it was on the 14th of June 1992, that is when the meeting was held at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Who Chaired this meeting?

MR NOSENGA: It was a meeting called by the induna's.

MR LOWIES: Who Chaired the meeting?

MR NOSENGA: I do not recall, the siren was sounded and there were many people present at the meeting so I cannot say who Chaired the meeting.

MR LOWIES: Can you recall anybody that spoke on the meeting, held a speech or whatever?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot commit myself to things I do not remember properly.

MR LOWIES: Can you recall what was said at the meeting, specifics?

MR NOSENGA: The issue of the attack on Boipatong was discussed, although I do not remember about other matters.

MR LOWIES: Was there no planning as to how it would proceed, what would be done, who would be assaulted or killed?

MR NOSENGA: As I stated before, they said dogs should be killed in Boipatong and I regarded that to mean that the entire township should be attacked. It was not specified that certain individuals in the township should be attacked.

MR LOWIES: Wasn't it said that women and children should also be attacked?

MR NOSENGA: They were attacked and killed, they said everyone should be attacked, including women, children, the aged.

MR LOWIES: So they didn't just say the dogs should be attacked, they specifically mentioned women, children, the aged?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, you know, we have been through this thing before, he has told us that he understood that to mean everyone in the township must be killed. That is how he understood it.

MR LOWIES: I will rephrase that. Was it mentioned when the attack would take place or was it only left until the 17th, at this specific meeting now on the 14th?

MR NOSENGA: No, the date was not specified, I myself did not know the date. We did not know when the attack would be launched.

MR LOWIES: Were you at that stage already told that after the attack, you must bring back the weapons and that they would be hidden again in the ceiling or was that only discussed on the 17th?

MR NOSENGA: At that time, that had not been discussed, we did not even know the date at that time. We just heard the siren sounded on the 17th.

MR LOWIES: Was anything said that you would be going to Ulundi afterwards? I am talking still on the 14th?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember, probably.

MR LOWIES: At this stage, was there any Police Officers?

MR NOSENGA: Sir, I last saw the Police at that meeting that was held two weeks prior to the attack, where the induna's and hostel dwellers were also present.

MR LOWIES: What time of the day did this take place, in the morning or in the afternoon, I am talking about the meeting on the 14th?

MR NOSENGA: It was held during the day.

MR LOWIES: In the afternoon or in the morning?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot remember the time, but it was during the day.

MR LOWIES: Did you not finish in the evening?

MR NOSENGA: No, it did not end in the evening, but in the afternoon.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, I have to put this to you and that is this meeting that you are talking about, never occurred. This is something that you have sucked out of your thumb?

MR NOSENGA: There was a meeting held on the 14th. There was a meeting held on the 14th, I don't know what you mean if you say I am sucking it out of my thumb. A meeting was held two weeks prior to the attack and another one was held on the 14th of June.

MR LOWIES: You see in the statement to Mr Kjellberg, and that is why I am also asking you this, to Kjellberg you said that it was there and then on the 14th already decided that the attack would be on the 17th, under cross-examination now you denied that such a decision was taken.

MR NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: But both can't be true?

MR NOSENGA: What I am saying is that I don't know about that, on the 14th I did not know what the date of the attack would be, the same applies to the meeting that was held two weeks prior.

MR LOWIES: Because the statement to Mr Kjellberg reads as follows

"... at this meeting it was decided that the attack should take place on the 17th of June 1992 ..."

MR NOSENGA: I do not know about that.

MR LOWIES: I put it to you the reason for this discrepancy is because the meeting never took place and you are sucking this out of your thumb again.

MR NOSENGA: There was a meeting held on the 14th of June.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Lowies, are these your instructions that there was no meeting on the 14th?

MR LOWIES: From my clients. And according to you in this statement to Mr Kjellberg, you said that

"... we were given instructions to bring back the weapons which we would be supplied with, to the hostel, after the attack. We were told to hide them in the ceiling at the hostel after the attack ..."

You deny now that something like that was said.

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the last part of that?

MR LOWIES: Are you denying now, or you have denied now, that this was discussed?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that. At that meeting on the 14th, we were informed that Boipatong should be attacked, but the date was not specified. I do not know anything about the guns.

MR LOWIES: And there was no discussion ...

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Lowies, I just want to get some clarity, are your instructions that there was no meeting on the 14th specifically, or there was no meeting which took place just shortly before the Boipatong attack?

MR LOWIES: As far as I understand from my clients, there were no meeting to that effect on the 14th.

ADV SIGODI: On the 14th?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: But they don't deny that there was a meeting shortly before the Boipatong attack?

MR LOWIES: Not on the 14th. Mr Nosenga, still what I would like to know from you, is the following. Do you deny now that on the 14th, that there was a discussion that you would be hiding, that you were to hide the weapons in the ceiling and that you would have to bring them back, etc, that was not discussed then?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that. I have already stated that Boipatong was discussed and that it should be attacked. With regards to weapons and that they should be hidden in the ceiling, I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: You see you also state in this paragraph that the meeting was headed by the induna's and took place approximately between half past five and eight o'clock in the evening. I specifically asked you whether it didn't end at eight o'clock in the evening, and you said no, it did not, it was held in the day?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: So this is also not correct?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: Therefore it is not correct?

MR LAX: Please Mr Lowies, we don't have to belabour the point every single time, you put this is not correct? It is patently obvious it is not correct if he says he doesn't know it.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair. On the day of the attack, how did you know that this is now going to be the date, this is now the day for the attack?

MR NOSENGA: The alarm was sounded on the 17th and people were called to a meeting. That alarm was sounded on the 17th, the evening.

MR LOWIES: And who Chaired this meeting?

MR NOSENGA: People like Darkie Chonco and others, including Gatchene and some people from Natal whom I did not know. We all went to that meeting.

MR LOWIES: Was Peens there at this specific meeting?

MR NOSENGA: Sir I said I last saw Peens at the meeting held two weeks prior to the attack and we later met him near Boipatong where they had been waiting for us.

MR LOWIES: Was Themba Khosa at this meeting?

MR NOSENGA: No, he was not present. It was just induna's who were present.

MR LOWIES: Did you see Themba Khosa at all on this specific day prior to the attack?

MR NOSENGA: No, I did not see him on the 17th.

MR LOWIES: Because in your statement to Mr Kjellberg you say that the trumpets gave a signal and we gathered at the stadium, at the hostel area. When Themba Khosa arrived at the hostel, he gave certain commands to the induna's who informed us that Khosa had obtained the guns and some of them were from Peens? This is not true?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: The only time that you saw Peens on that day, was at the time of the attack?

MR NOSENGA: That is true.

MR LOWIES: Because in paragraph 10 of your statement you say to Mr Kjellberg

"... I also saw Peens coming to the hostel on the day of the attack, together with his colleague Chaka ...",

so this is not correct?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: "... they came in Peens' private car ...",

not correct?

MR NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: You even described the car as a white Opel Monza, not correct?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: To Kjellberg you also said

"... I saw him hand over money to Victor Keswa ...",

not correct?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I did say that during the day of the 17th, he did hand over money to Victor Keswa.

MR LOWIES: No, but I understand from you - sorry, when did he do this, was this after the attack that Peens handed the money, because this is in conflict with what you said earlier? Can you explain?

MR NOSENGA: Sir, I said during the day of the 17th, he did hand over money to Victor, they were at a parking lot, the Iscor parking lot.

MR LOWIES: Not at the hostel?

MR LAX: Sorry, please just explain this for us. Why did you say you didn't see him at all, the last time you saw him you said, was two weeks prior? Those were your specific words?

MR NOSENGA: I must have misunderstood. The question was not very clear.

CHAIRPERSON: You see your evidence was that and you were emphatic, you had last seen Peens at a meeting two weeks prior to the attack and the next time you saw him, was when you met them to go for the attack?

MR NOSENGA: That is so, but the question was not very clear. I last saw Curtis on the 17th, during the day when he was standing together with Peens.

CHAIRPERSON: We are not talking about Curtis, we are talking about Peens. Okay, let's get this thing straight now. Did you see Peens on the 17th?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I did see him during the day and I was with Curtis.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how he arrived at the hostel?

MR NOSENGA: They were outside the hostel at the Iscor parking lot, that is where he was parked.

CHAIRPERSON: So they did not come inside, into the hostel?

MR NOSENGA: No, they were just standing at the parking lot.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Yes?

MR LAX: Just one thing, sorry, you said he was parked there, so did you see his car?

MR NOSENGA: It was not his car, it was his service vehicle.

MR LAX: Yes, but what kind of car was it if you saw it?

MR NOSENGA: It was a white vehicle.

MR LAX: Yes, what kind?

MR NOSENGA: A Monza.

MR LAX: When you were just asked a few minutes ago whether you saw his white car, an Opel Monza, you said no, no, you don't know anything about that?

MR NOSENGA: I must have misunderstood, but it was a white Monza that he arrived in.

MR LOWIES: Was Peens alone?

MR NOSENGA: I saw him alone.

MR LOWIES: So he did not arrive with Chaka?

MR NOSENGA: No. I don't remember that.

MR LOWIES: Because your statement says that he arrived together with his colleague, Chaka?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know about that. I only saw Chaka during the night of the 17th.

MR LOWIES: Was this the first time for you to see that money was handed by Peens to Victor Keswa?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Do you know whether in the past as a result of what you had been told for instance, that Victor had been getting money from Peens?

MR NOSENGA: No, I do not. I saw it happening for the first time on the 17th at that Iscor parking lot.

MR LOWIES: Do you have any suspicion that Peens may have been giving Victor money before, before this specific day?

MR NOSENGA: No, I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: Because to Mr Kjellberg you said the following

"... Victor confirmed to me later that same day that he was given money by Peens on the day of the attack. I often saw Peens meeting Victor Keswa and I am sure that he got money from Peens."

MR NOSENGA: No, all I am saying is that I saw him giving him money on the 17th, and I do not know how much it was.

MR LOWIES: Did Victor Keswa confirm to you at any stage that Peens had given him money, whether on that day or any other day?

MR NOSENGA: No, I saw him on the 17th being given money by Peens.

MR LOWIES: Because your statement says that Victor confirmed that money was given, that you deny?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: At the stadium, who gave you muti to drink?

MR NOSENGA: Every person was free to drink that muti at the stadium.

MR LOWIES: The question is who gave it to you sir, who handed you the muti?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember. There was ntelezi at the stadium.

MR LOWIES: Did anybody hand the gun over to you?

MR NOSENGA: No, I picked it up from the ground, no one handed it to me.

MR LOWIES: How many guns would you say, were there, AK47's?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot estimate, but there were.

MR LOWIES: Did you see any other rifles or guns?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, small guns.

MR LOWIES: Such as?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot say, I do not know what type of guns they were, but there were shotguns as well.

MR LOWIES: Do you know what a 38 Special Revolver is?

CHAIRPERSON: We can't hear you, what is - speak up please.

MR NOSENGA: No, I do not.

MR LOWIES: Because your statement reads as follows

"... I was given an AK47 but I know that 38 Special Revolver and shotguns were used?

MR LAX: It is in brackets Mr Lowies, it is explaining what a 38 Special is.

MR LOWIES: Do you know what a 38 Special is?

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't he just told us that he doesn't know what it is?

MR LOWIES: Where do you get this information from, did you supply this to Mr Kjellberg or do you say that he wrote it out of his own?

MR NOSENGA: What I am saying is that small guns were also present, they were there, but I cannot explain just what type they were.

MR LOWIES: You would never have supplied the name 38 Special to him, or 38 Special?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, it must follow mustn't it, if the man says I don't know what a 38 Special is?

MR LOWIES: I withdraw the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, you've got to be able to distinguish between matters that are for argument and matters that you can canvass with the witness. Because otherwise if you are going to begin to argue with the witness, you are going to take a lot of time. You can only canvass facts with the witness, once a man has said I don't know what a 38 Special is, that is the end of the matter.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair, I take cognisance. Mr Nosenga, at that stage, were there already traditional weapons in the stadium or not, or did the people have to go and fetch them after that?

MR NOSENGA: The people who had spears, brought them into the stadium when the siren was sounded. The people did bring traditional weapons into the stadium, it was only firearms that were put in a pile and people were asked to choose from that pile.

MR LOWIES: But how would they know to bring their weapons with when there was only a signal at six o'clock? I mean how did they know that this was going to be the time to bring weapons?

MR NOSENGA: As I said before, we went into the stadium and we were told that the day had arrived to attack Boipatong. Darkie Chonco brought the firearms and the other residents of the hostel brought their own traditional weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: When the siren went off, did people on their own, go to the stadium?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, when the siren was sounded.

CHAIRPERSON: Has this been interpreted to you, what I have just said? Has this been interpreted to you, what I have just said?

MR NOSENGA: I heard what you have just said.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear the interpretation of what I have just said?

MR NOSENGA: No. He is asking me on how people knew that they should bring their weapons to the stadium, and I am explaining that when the siren was sounded, people went into the stadium and they were told that the day had arrived and then they went to fetch their weapons from their rooms.

CHAIRPERSON: So people first went to the stadium and that is where they were told that the day has arrived for the attack on Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then they went back to fetch their spears?

MR NOSENGA: Yes. Weapons like spears and axes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, during the tea adjournment, you were in the presence of your legal representative here at the back and she was reading the statement to you in English, without assistance of an Interpreter.

MR NOSENGA: That is not true. How can she read English to me, because I am uneducated.

MR LOWIES: Well in Afrikaans, the question is there is no Interpreter, do you agree with that? She read a statement to you, whether it is Afrikaans or English, but in the absence of an Interpreter?

MS TANZER: Chairman, if I may, he barely understood what I was reading, I barely understood what I was reading, it was all in Afrikaans.

MR LAX: Sorry, I don't understand what is going on here. Who said anything about Afrikaans, I haven't heard anything on the record about Afrikaans at all. What is going on?

MR LOWIES: Chair, no I just want to make a point, this witness understands Afrikaans and English because I saw that his legal representative read stuff to him in Afrikaans or English, one of the languages.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if you are adamant you can take the oath and come and give evidence to that effect.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair. Do you deny that you understand Afrikaans?

MR NOSENGA: I do not understand it well. There were some parts where I did not understand her.

MR LOWIES: So if she reads a statement to you in Afrikaans, you would understand certain portions of it?

MR NOSENGA: As I said before, I don't understand that language, but she was reading the statement and there were parts that I did not understand.

MR LOWIES: Were there parts that you did understand?

CHAIRPERSON: If there were parts that he could not understand, does it not necessarily follow that there were parts that he could have understood?

MR LOWIES: I retract the question. Do you understand English?

MR NOSENGA: No, I do not.

MR LOWIES: When she consults with you, does she consult with you in English?

MR NOSENGA: She does speak in English and sometimes Afrikaans, but I do not understand her.

MR LOWIES: But sir, she went through Exhibit U with you, she asked you regarding Exhibit U, without the assistance of an Interpreter, whether your signature appears on certain pages of Exhibit U, correct or not?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, she did ask me in Afrikaans, and she was showing me the pages and the signature.

MR LOWIES: And you need to respond to her yes, this is my signature, no, this is not my signature, you could do that? Have you got an answer?

CHAIRPERSON: ... if you don't have any other questions which are relevant to these issues, hand it over to your other colleagues. The point has been made. We know that he has pointed out the signature. Whether he understood or didn't understand, we have not been told that.

MR LOWIES: I will proceed Chairman. When you left for Boipatong on the night of the attack, did you see at that stage any Policemen?

MR NOSENGA: I only saw those who were in the casspir, the Police who accompanied us on the attack.

MR LOWIES: According to you, who were the Policemen who accompanied you?

MR NOSENGA: The Police Officers that I knew were Peens, Danie, Rooikop, Chaka and some other big Police Officer who was driving, but I did not know the rest.

MR LOWIES: How would you have been able to recognise each other during the attack?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, we could. We did have identifying marks that we used to recognise each other.

MR LOWIES: What were these marks?

MR NOSENGA: We all wore red headbands and the Police were wearing copper hats when they entered Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: They were wearing, what were the Police wearing?

MR LAX: He said copper hats, that is a word for a balaclava.

MR LOWIES: Oh. What was the colour of these headbands, only red?

MR NOSENGA: We were wearing red headbands.

MR LAX: The question was were you wearing only red headbands?

MR NOSENGA: I only saw the red headbands and we were in our private clothes.

MR LOWIES: Can you describe these headbands besides the fact that they were red?

MR NOSENGA: I know that they were red and we wore them around our heads.

MR LOWIES: Have you seen red headbands like these, before?

MR NOSENGA: Please repeat that question.

MR LOWIES: Have you seen red headbands like this before? Before the attack?

MR NOSENGA: I saw them when we were issued with them on the night of the attack.

MR LOWIES: So it was issued to you? By whom?

MR NOSENGA: We were given by Darkie Chonco, so that we could identify one another. We would use those headbands to identify one another, so that we don't shoot one another.

MR LOWIES: You do not know where he got hold of them? Did you see?

MR NOSENGA: I would not know. I just saw him carrying them in his possession, I do not know where he got them from.

MR LOWIES: When was the decision taken to have these headbands, to wear them?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember correctly.

MR LOWIES: Did everybody wear red headbands?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, the hostel residents. The Police were clad in balaclavas.

MR LOWIES: What was the colour of the Police casspirs?

MR NOSENGA: They were the same colour as the small SAP vans, they were yellow.

MR LOWIES: All of them?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, all of them.

MR LOWIES: Not one was camouflaged?

MR NOSENGA: No, I just saw the four yellow casspirs.

MR LOWIES: Were there not six, is it not possible that there were six, six casspirs?

MR NOSENGA: Sir, I saw four casspirs, not six.

MR LOWIES: Because in your statement you say

"... I saw four to six casspirs parked in the field ..."?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that number, six, I only saw four.

MR LOWIES: Did you enter actually into one of those casspirs, or were you one of the ones that walked next to it, beside it?

CHAIRPERSON: But isn't his evidence that he was in the Police casspir? He has repeatedly said this and you have canvassed this.

MR LOWIES: I withdraw the question. Can you recall who was in the casspir with you?

CHAIRPERSON: You have asked him these questions, have you not Mr Lowies? I cannot locate the specific area in my notes, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, Mr Lowies and allow you to ask the question.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair. Who were in the casspir with you, on your way to Boipatong?

MS CAMBANIS: After lunch on Monday, Chair, a few pages after lunch.

MR LOWIES: I did not ask anything on Monday, he was still in chief. I started on Tuesday morning as you can recall.

CHAIRPERSON: He was only cross-examining as from Tuesday. Cross-examine him.

MR LOWIES: Could I get the names please of the ones with you in the casspir?

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, the time now is about five past one.

MR LOWIES: It a convenient time to take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Could I maybe just request from you Chair, to get the answer before we adjourn or would that be inconvenient to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, get the answer.

MR LOWIES: I am indebted to you.

MR NOSENGA: I was with Gatchene, Lucky Stikenauw as well as Dondo and Themba and other Police Officers, Peens amongst them, Rooikop as well and Chaka and some other fat Officer who was driving the casspir.

MR LAX: Could you just repeat, not the Policemen but the other people that were with you, I didn't catch all the names, I am afraid.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned Gatchene, Lucky, Dondo, Themba who ...

MR NOSENGA: And myself.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, so there were five of you?

MR NOSENGA: Yes. Gatchene was an induna.

CHAIRPERSON: Lucky, Dondo, Themba, yourself and then Chaka, Peens, Rooikop and the driver?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We will come back at two o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (s.u.o)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LOWIES: (cont)

Thank you. Mr Nosenga, do you know a person by the name of Tsamo?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I know Tsamo.

MR LOWIES: Was he also in the casspir?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't remember. No, I don't remember.

MR LOWIES: Do you know a chap by the name of Makuka?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I know Makuka.

MR LOWIES: Was he in the casspir?

MR NOSENGA: No, not in the casspir in which I was travelling.

MR LOWIES: Do you know a chap by the name of Makeze?

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

MR LOWIES: Makeze.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you spell it for us please.

MR LOWIES: Makeze.

MR NOSENGA: I don't quite understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Speak up Mr Nosenga.

MR NOSENGA: I am saying I don't know the person he is talking about. Maybe if you can write the name differently I can know.

MR LOWIES: Mkhize?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I know Mkhize.

MR LOWIES: Was he in the casspir?

MR NOSENGA: I don't remember him present in the casspir.

MR LOWIES: In the attack on Boipatong, was there anybody from Natal who took part in this attack?

MR NOSENGA: Even though I don't know them personally, they were present. There were many people from Natal during the attack. I don't know them.

MR LOWIES: How can you say they are from Natal?

MR NOSENGA: They are men from Natal, they speak Zulu, they are not from around the Vaal, that is why I am saying they are from Natal. They speak Zulu.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, can I just clarify this with the applicant. When you say there were many people from Natal, were these people from the hostel who came from Natal, or were these people who had arrived from Natal to the hostel, specifically for the attack?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: No, which one? Do you understand the difference?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I understand the difference.

ADV SIGODI: Let me say it again, it can either be people who stayed in the hostel, but were from Natal, or it can be people who were from Natal, but who had arrived at the hostel specifically to assist maybe specifically for the attack? Which is which?

MR NOSENGA: They were residents at the hostel, many of them were originally from Natal.

MR LOWIES: Have you ever been to Masinga?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know Masinga.

MR LOWIES: Did you know anybody from Masinga at the hostel?

MR NOSENGA: There were people from Masinga, yes, but there is no one particular person that I can point out as having come from Masinga.

MR LOWIES: Did Chaka say anything to you on the way to Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: I don't remember sir. Yes, they were talking, but I cannot remember.

MR LOWIES: Did Chaka say anything that he has something against the people in the township?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, what are you looking at? Look up so that you can hear what the question is.

MR NOSENGA: May the question please be repeated?

MR LAX: Just one second, are you having a problem with your headphones again, you seem to be touching them and rolling your eyes?

MR NOSENGA: I hear, but I do not understand quite well.

MR LAX: If you put that thing again facing this thing on the end of the pole here, you will hear a better signal. Can you hear properly now? Put it flat, can you hear?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I can hear.

MR LAX: Clearly?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you. Sorry Mr Lowies, let's just make sure it doesn't happen again.

MR LOWIES: I understand, thank you Chair. Did Chaka say anything regarding this attitude towards the people in Boipatong on your way to Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember.

MR LOWIES: Do you know of your own accord whether Chaka, or do you know from any knowledge, whether Chaka had problems with the people in Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: Sir, I said I don't know but then I don't think he could have had a problem with the people of Boipatong, because his house was burnt down at Zone 6.

MR LOWIES: How do you know this?

MR NOSENGA: People of Boipatong did not harass him in any way. I am saying that I cannot know as to why he attacked Boipatong, because the people of Boipatong did not harass him, because his house was burnt in Zone 6, Sebokeng.

MR LOWIES: Did Chaka say that he had to kill the dogs because his house had been burnt down by the ANC?

MR NOSENGA: I don't remember sir.

MR LOWIES: Mr Chairman, I had been bribed by my colleagues to stop my cross-examination, no, in all seriousness, I have no further questions. The further aspects fall better within the ambit of knowledge of my other colleagues and at this stage then, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I have even forgotten that you said you were going to ask two questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOWIES

CHAIRPERSON: Who is next in line? Thank you Mr Lowies. I think I am next in line, Mr Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS: Mr Nosenga, you said this morning you don't know a Special 38 revolver at all, is that correct?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I don't know.

MS PRETORIUS: On the 15th of June 1992, when you went out to Sebokeng for the drive-by shootings, what kind of weapons did you use on that day?

MR NOSENGA: I did mention that I was using an AK47.

MS PRETORIUS: That is on the 15th of June, not the attack on Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, at Sebokeng, that is right.

MS PRETORIUS: You see, why I am asking you that is because I have the court file here, I have copies for everybody Mr Chairperson, it will be

Exhibit V: I think. I have paginated some of them, some of the Exhibits. On page 13 Mr Nosenga, it is unfortunately in Afrikaans, it will be Exhibit V, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you able to sort out the number of pages in Exhibit U?

MR LOWIES: I have requested Mr Hanro Fredrech to have a look at it, I don't know how far he has gone with it.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well. All right. Which page?

MS PRETORIUS: Page 13. There is a plea that you gave to the Court on the day that you pleaded guilty to the nine charges of murder, six of attempted murder and then also for the weapon and ammunition which you had. I would like to refer you to page 14, paragraph 3.3. There you pleaded

"... I had a .38 revolver and shot with it through the window as I was sitting on the right hand back seat. I did not fire any shots on the minibus taxi."

According to this plea that you gave in court, in the Supreme Court, you used a .38 revolver. Can you give an explanation for that?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know where they got that .38 revolver from.

MS PRETORIUS: Did you sign the plea on page 15?

MR NOSENGA: No, no. This is my name yes, but this is not, yes it is me who signed here, that is my name, Matanzima.

MS PRETORIUS: Matanzima, that is your signature. So you did sign that this is correct in court on that day?

MR NOSENGA: But they did not find me in possession of a 38.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Nosenga, I will leave it at that. I think it is quite clear what you are saying here.

CHAIRPERSON: You see the - you have stated that you have signed the document that Counsel has just drawn your attention to, right?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, what you are being asked is at page 14, paragraph 3.3 in which you say you were in possession of a .38 revolver.

MR LAX: He handled?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he handled, yes?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know that, I was not arrested in possession of the 38.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you say in that statement, did you tell anyone at any stage that you handled a .38 revolver?

MR NOSENGA: It is possible I said that, but I know that I had an AK. There were others with revolvers or pistols.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but did you tell anyone that you handled a .38 revolver during the Sebokeng or the Everton attack?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't remember sir.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something, have you ever handled a revolver? Do you know what a revolver is as opposed to a pistol?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't. I cannot compare the two, I don't know which is which.

MR LAX: Well, why did you plead guilty to be using a 38 revolver when you used an AK47?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know how this came to be included in the document here.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Nosenga, you told the Committee that many people came to see you whilst you were in prison. Can you remember whether a Miss Nichols came to see you?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't remember very well.

MS PRETORIUS: Did any lady, a white lady come and see you in prison and this is quite some time ago, in 1995 or in 1996?

MR NOSENGA: Not in 1995, I cannot remember very well.

MS PRETORIUS: In 1996?

MR NOSENGA: I said I don't remember very well.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you know whether Ms Cambanis visited you in prison?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know Cambanis.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis is the lady who is sitting there.

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't remember very well.

MS PRETORIUS: Because why I am asking you, on this court file, there is a sticker that Nichols Cambanis and Associates asked for the typing of the record of this matter on the 26th of February 1996. I thought maybe they came to see you before they asked for the typing of the record, that is on page 1.

MR NOSENGA: I don't remember very well.

MS PRETORIUS: When Brian and Mr Berger went to see you, can you tell the Committee what did they say, why did they go and see you, can you remember that?

MR NOSENGA: They said they had come to see me concerning the Boipatong matter, I mentioned this yesterday as well.

MS PRETORIUS: No, I realise that but I want to know were they the first people who came to see you in connection with Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: No, the first people to come to Leeukop prison, was Mongezi.

MS PRETORIUS: Yes, but in the statement that he had completed for you, there is not mention of Boipatong, so that is why I am asking you.

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know. They asked me about the Boipatong as well as Sebokeng issues.

MS PRETORIUS: Brian, can you give us any idea who Brian is? Was he an Attorney or a person from the ANC, a person from the TRC?

MR NOSENGA: He was an Attorney, he was not coming from the ANC or the TRC.

MS PRETORIUS: How do you know he was an Attorney?

MR NOSENGA: He told me that he is an Advocate from Johannesburg, that he had been sent to me by Mongezi.

MS PRETORIUS: Is that what Brian said to you?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, when I was in Stofberg.

MS PRETORIUS: No, I realise that but you said that Brian and Mr Berger came to see you, so I just want to get it clear. Brian said to you he was an Advocate from Johannesburg who had been sent by Mongezi?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, he had come in the company of Mr Berger.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you know when that was?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot remember.

MS PRETORIUS: Can you remember which year, whether it was last year, the year before that?

MR NOSENGA: No, I cannot remember.

MS PRETORIUS: Can I ask you this, can you remember how long after you had made the statement to Mongezi, did they come to see you?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot remember. A long time expired before he came.

MS PRETORIUS: A long time expired after you had made the statement, before they came?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, it has been a long time after the statement was made.

MS PRETORIUS: Is it possible that they came after you heard Victor Mthembu talking on the TV?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know. I cannot tell a lie.

MS PRETORIUS: Did you give a written statement to them, or did they only take notes or what happened on that day?

MR NOSENGA: They had a paper like this, I don't know whether they were taking notes or what. They said to me they wanted a statement about what happened at Boipatong.

MS PRETORIUS: And you told them what had happened according to you?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I did.

MS PRETORIUS: You see, because it is so strange that the first document that you admit to signing, doesn't mention Boipatong at all, and the next document that you admit to signing, is the document taken in this year, 1999 that refers to Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: You are referring to pages 18 to 23?

MS PRETORIUS: That is correct, I am sorry, I didn't refer to that. That is correct Mr Chairman. That is the document that Mr Lowies today has been asking you about, that is the first document that is in front of the Committee, that you admit to, speaking about Boipatong because the unsigned document is not, you didn't sign the unsigned document? The second document, the application form, the second application form, you did not admit to and then also the letter that you wrote, let me just say the second application form is the document on pages 11, 12 and 13, that is the other one you did not admit to and then this document that is for indemnity, you also said it is not your signature, the next letter is a letter written by you, but there Boipatong is not mentioned, so the first document that you admit to about Boipatong, is the one that was taken this year, is that correct?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know.

MS PRETORIUS: Because I want to put it to you that when this Committee started, there was no application of you in front of this Committee and it was only in January, the 19th of January that any statement was put before this Committee that you admit to, that was in connection with the Boipatong incident?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know how it happened, I don't know.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Da Silva, do you also need a month?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, you ruled on Monday afternoon that I wouldn't ask questions, so ...

CHAIRPERSON: You have a version that you have to put and you are fully entitled to have that denied or ...

MR DA SILVA: Well, the witness doesn't implicate my client. There is only one aspect that I wish to canvass if I am allowed to do so Mr Chairman, a very short aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, before we come to you, because you are an implicated person, why don't we finish with the applicants first, and that will be Mr Strydom.

MR DA SILVA: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That is if he has any questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: I've got a few.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Just as an introduction Mr Nosenga, I just want to put to you three things that has been put to you again, but on behalf of the applicants that I appear for, I just want to put it to you. Firstly I want to put it to you that you were not staying in the hostel during June 1992?

MR NOSENGA: That is not correct.

MR STRYDOM: Secondly I want to put it to you that you were not part of the attackers that attacked Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992.

MR NOSENGA: I was present at the time of the arrest on Boipatong on the 17th.

MR STRYDOM: Thirdly Mr Nosenga, I want to put to you therefore your implication of the Police in this attack, is false.

MR NOSENGA: No, it is not false.

MR STRYDOM: You told us that you grew up in Everton?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go to Boipatong from time to time?

MR NOSENGA: It was for the first time in 1991 that I was fleeing from the ANC comrades of Everton, that is when I went to kwaMadala hostel. I only went there for the first time in 1991.

MR STRYDOM: No Mr Nosenga, I am asking about Boipatong. When did you go to Boipatong for the first time in your life?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot recall, but yes, I used to go to Boipatong before I went to stay at the hostel of kwaMadala.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give any reasons why you went to Boipatong from time to time?

MR NOSENGA: I had relatives who had been killed there, I had relatives, I was visiting my relatives.

MR STRYDOM: You also said that they were killed. Were they killed during the Boipatong attack?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give any names of any of your relatives that were killed during the Boipatong attack?

MR NOSENGA: No, not now, maybe if you could go to my family they will give you names, because we have Nosenga's as our relatives in Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: But why did you say that relatives of yours were killed, do you have specific knowledge in that regard, or is it only speculation or why did you mention that?

MR NOSENGA: No, I am not speculating. My family came to tell me that I also participated in killing my relatives in Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: You were asked Mr Nosenga, why did you go to Boipatong before the attack?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said that you used to go there because you had relatives that you were visiting?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct and friends as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Friends?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that your relatives were killed during the attack?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but you did not know the names of these relatives?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know them.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something please, the people you don't know, are the people who were killed in the attack, have I understood you correctly?

MR NOSENGA: At the time we were attacking Boipatong sir.

MR LAX: What I would like to ask you is what about those who were killed before the attack, who were the reason why you went to visit your relatives there, who were those people? Do you understand, you are looking puzzled?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't understand.

MR LAX: You have just told us this, you were asked had you been to Boipatong before the attack and you said yes, you went there to visit relatives and friends who had been killed there. This was before the attack, you then went on to say that there were also relatives killed during the attack. What I want to know is which of your relatives did you go and visit before the attack in Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: I said I don't know their names, but yes, we have our relatives bearing the same surname in Boipatong.

MR LAX: And do you know how they were killed and why they were killed, these people whose families you went to visit?

MR NOSENGA: It is at the time when we went out on this Boipatong massacre, they too were killed because they were also residents.

MR LAX: No, you are misunderstanding me. We are talking about people whom you visited before the attack, do you understand that?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I understand.

MR LAX: Now, what we are trying to understand is those people killed before the attack, how were they killed and what was it over and was it in violence perhaps or was it just natural causes, we don't know so we are just trying to get a picture of why you went to Boipatong and what it was about. Do you understand?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I understand.

MR LAX: Can you help us?

MR NOSENGA: They were killed during the times of violence at Boipatong.

MR LAX: Can you recall approximately how many times people were killed from your family who were living there?

MR NOSENGA: No, I do not remember.

MR LAX: Can you recall by whom they would have been killed, if they were killed in the violence, it would have been by one or other of the sides or the people involved in the violence?

MR NOSENGA: No, I don't know really.

MR LAX: So you don't know to which political grouping or supporters they may have belonged, the people who were killed?

MR NOSENGA: I can explain shortly about my family. Most members of my family are not involved in politics, they just go to church.

MR LAX: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I then understand you to say some of your relatives were killed during the unrest in Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And others were killed during the attack on Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: No, I heard that my relatives had been killed, when we launched that attack on Boipatong. That is what I heard. I am not sure whether any relative of mine died before that attack.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I am lost now. When my colleague asked you a moment ago, I understood you to say that there were relatives, some of your relatives were killed in Boipatong during the unrest?

MR NOSENGA: No, I must have misunderstood that question. My relatives were killed during the attack on Boipatong, when the hostel residents went on that attack on Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, so when you went on to say - you did not know who killed those relatives? I see. Your relatives were only killed during the attack on Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And these are the relatives you used to go and visit prior to the attack?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, and these are the relatives that you don't know their names?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct, I have forgotten their names.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg yours?

MR NOSENGA: I have forgotten their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Surnames?

MR NOSENGA: They are Nosenga's.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

ADV SIGODI: Where did they stay in Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: Some stayed in Slovo Park and some stayed in the township, but I do not remember now because I have spent some time in prison.

ADV SIGODI: Can you remember the Zone in the township, in Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know, but they stayed in the township, I will just take a taxi, but I don't know which Zone they stayed in.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know the street?

MR NOSENGA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, let me ask you Mr Nosenga, if you don't understand a question, say so, so that we can repeat the question or explain the question to you. Yes?

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Nosenga, who are your friends whom you visited in Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: As I said before sir, I have forgotten their names, but I did have relatives that I used to visit in Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you are not being asked about your relatives, you are being asked about the friends, your friends that you visited in Boipatong, do you understand the difference?

MR NOSENGA: Yes. The one person that I remember is Vusi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What is his surname?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know the surname.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR STRYDOM: How many of your relatives were killed during the attack?

MR NOSENGA: I don't remember how many they were.

MR STRYDOM: According to you, were some of your friends also killed during the attack?

MR NOSENGA: I do not have knowledge in that regard, but I did have friends in Boipatong. I am not in a position to tell you whether they did die or not during that attack.

MR STRYDOM: So this person you mentioned, Vusi, was he killed or injured according to you during the attack?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember.

MR STRYDOM: How can you say you do not remember, do you know if he was injured or don't you know?

MR NOSENGA: Sir I do not know whether he was injured or killed.

MR STRYDOM: You testified that your relatives that were killed, have the same surname and you also said Nosenga. I want to put to you that I've got the list here of all the people that were killed during the attack, and there is not a Nosenga amongst them, do you have any comment?

MR NOSENGA: I was told that my relatives had been killed in that attack. My family told me so. It is not something that I have just made up.

MR STRYDOM: Who told you that, which family member of you told you that?

MR NOSENGA: My sister, Nomvula.

MR STRYDOM: Now that you have testified that you had been in Boipatong prior to the attack, I want to know how well do you know the township itself? I will start off by asking you do you know the name of any street in that township?

MR NOSENGA: No, as I stated before, I do not know the street names.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know the factories on the northern side of Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: No, I will be telling a lie.

MR STRYDOM: Do you a company by the name of Metal Box?

MR NOSENGA: No, I only know of the factories near Tserelo, close to the BP garage.

MR STRYDOM: Are you sure it is a BP garage near Tserelo that you are referring to?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, it is a BP garage. It is close to the robots, it is close to the robots and there are factories near by.

CHAIRPERSON: But do you know the Metal Box, is it Metal Box, yes, the Metal Box firm?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know, it could be one of those.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know this BP garage has got the yellow and green colours that is connected to these garages, do you know that?

MR NOSENGA: No, I do not.

CHAIRPERSON: What he is saying to you is that BP garages have a yellow and a green colour. Do you know that?

MR NOSENGA: It is possible, but I cannot tell a lie. I know that it is painted, but I do not know the colours.

MR STRYDOM: The garage that you are referring to, can you state which colour is painted at that garage?

MR NOSENGA: No, I cannot.

MR STRYDOM: You see, I want to put to you that the garage on the corner, close to Tserelo is actually a Trek garage, will you agree to that?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know about that. As I stated before, the garage I know is next to the robots, and there are factories close by, on your way to Sebokeng.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How often, prior to the attack, how often did you go to Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: I used to visit, but not regularly. I would go there once and go there again after a while, it was not an everyday occurrence. I would go there once and go there again after a couple of days.

CHAIRPERSON: How would you get there, would you use a taxi?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I used to board Taxi's to Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: During these visits, did you also go to Slovo Park?

MR NOSENGA: I used to go to the township, but I did have a relative in Slovo Park. I used to visit those people who resided in the township.

MR STRYDOM: I want to know did you visit relatives or any other people for that matter, in Slovo Park?

MR NOSENGA: As I said before, I had relatives at Slovo Park as well as at Boipatong, the township, but I used to visit the township.

MR LAX: You still haven't answered the question. Just listen carefully to the question and we will all finish a lot quicker. The question was a simple one, have you visited anybody, let's put it as plainly as that, at Slovo Park, yes or no?

MR NOSENGA: No.

MR STRYDOM: So the first time you ever set foot in Slovo Park, was the night that you went there to attack according to you?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct. That was the first time I went to Slovo Park.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't visit your relative who is at Slovo Park?

MR NOSENGA: No, I used to visit the township. I would go to the township, not to the shack area.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give any indication in relation to the township, where will you find Slovo Park? Can you state the Slovo Park section, in relation to the township Boipatong, where would you find that?

MR NOSENGA: When you enter Boipatong and you go down the street, there is a mixed hostel. Further down there is a clump of trees and further down you will find Slovo Park, that is after you have left the township, on your way towards Sharpeville.

MR STRYDOM: If you come from kwaMadala hostel, will you first get the township, that is now Boipatong, and then Slovo Park, or will you first get Slovo Park and then Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: Please repeat that question.

MR STRYDOM: When you come from the kwaMadala hostel side going towards the township, will you first get Slovo Park and then Boipatong township, or the other way around, that is to say first Boipatong township and then Slovo Park?

MR NOSENGA: You pass the township first.

MR STRYDOM: This hostel you are referring to, does it have a name?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know the name of the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: This hostel, is it situated amongst houses in the Boipatong township or is it on the side?

MR NOSENGA: It is close to the houses, this is not far from the houses. It is also next to a big shop. From the taxi rank, the hostel is just some distance away.

MR STRYDOM: So on the occasions you went to Boipatong prior to the attack, and you used taxi's, you could see this hostel?

MR NOSENGA: When you board a taxi from Everton, as you enter Boipatong, you enter by the garage and go down the main street and the hostel is close to the taxi rank.

MR STRYDOM: The question is if you use a taxi and you want to go to Boipatong, the taxi, you get out of the taxi, will you see the hostel?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: So on previous occasions when you went there, you saw that there is a hostel?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I could see the hostel. It is a mixed hostel.

MR STRYDOM: What do you mean a mixed hostel, is it for women and men, is that what you are saying?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, it is a mixed hostel, men and women and children live in there.

MR STRYDOM: I want you to have a look at Exhibit M1 and 2, but I will show you M2, that is the colour photograph, M1 is the other photograph, it is not a coloured photograph. M2 is the colour photograph, I am going to refer you to M2, the coloured picture. Before I ask you questions about this Exhibit, I want you to orientate yourself, have a proper look, see if you understand it. I will point out to you where the kwaMadala hostel is situated. It is just out of sight, but on this side. The kwaMadala hostel is this side, I will also show you the factories, do you see the factories? That is an aerial photo, do you see the Boipatong township?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Can you point out Slovo Park on this photograph?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot see properly, there are many houses here.

MR STRYDOM: What I want to show you further, let me ask you first, Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, do you know the name of that street, do you know the street?

MR NOSENGA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the address of the relatives that you visited in Boipatong? What street did they live in?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know the street name.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not asking you about Frikkie Boulevard, I am asking you about the name of the street, be very careful, the name of the street where your relatives lived in Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: I do not know. I do not know the street name.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say you don't know the name of the street, because of (indistinct) - did you say (indistinct)

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I am not educated therefore I cannot know which name is which.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the house number?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember it well.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, in regard to any of your relatives who were in Boipatong, you don't know the street names or the house numbers?

MR NOSENGA: No, I just know the physical houses.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, yes.

MR STRYDOM: You know the road that runs from Vanderbijlpark to Sebokeng, the tar road, do you know the road? I want to show it on this picture, and I will also show you the garage on the corner and the tar road that turns across this picture. Do you know that road?

MR NOSENGA: No, I cannot say I do know the road, I just see a lot of houses in the picture.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but forget about the picture now, when you come from kwaMadala hostel and you want to go to Boipatong, you will cross a tarred road, is that correct?

MR NOSENGA: Are you referring to the road from Vanderbijl to Sebokeng, because there is a road from Vanderbijl to Sebokeng and there is also another one that goes into the township itself. You can also use the roads that goes via a bush or forest.

MR STRYDOM: I am referring to the road that will take you from Vanderbijl to Sebokeng, the tar road you will cross if you come from kwaMadala hostel and you want to go to Boipatong. That is Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, do you know that road?

MR NOSENGA: No, I do not know it.

MR STRYDOM: You testified already that there is an intersection there at the garage, is that correct?

MR NOSENGA: Please repeat that.

MR STRYDOM: At the garage, there is an intersection, is that correct?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now, which two roads intersect there?

MR NOSENGA: There is a road that goes under the bridge from the hostel, there is also a garage and factories. There is one road that takes you to the hostel, to the township and there is another one that takes you towards Sebokeng and the garage is just there.

MR STRYDOM: And there is a robot there at the intersection, is that right?

MR NOSENGA: True.

MR STRYDOM: The night of the attack, when you left the hostel with the other attackers, which route did you follow towards Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: We left the main gate of the hostel and we went along the tar road and went under the bridge. We did not take the tar road towards Boipatong, but there is a forest near the hostel and that is the route which we took. From that spot, the garage is a distance away. That is where we stopped and found the casspirs waiting for us.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat again.

MR NOSENGA: We went under the bridge from the hostel, there is a clump of trees near the robots, we did not take the street, the tarred roads towards Boipatong township, but there is a route towards that forest, it was a forest in Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Is a road or just a path?

MR NOSENGA: It is a footpath.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NOSENGA: Before you reach the township itself.

MR STRYDOM: On your way to Boipatong that night, did you go passed that robots at the garage?

MR NOSENGA: No, we did not take that route, we took the other one that moved towards the veld.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were the casspirs?

MR NOSENGA: They parked at the veld, just before you get into the township.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that in your evidence in chief, you said that the group went to the robots at the garage.

MR NOSENGA: I mentioned that on our way back, that is where we went, not on our way to the township. I mentioned that route when I was questioned on the route we took on our way back from Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: I can refer you to my note, in fact it says ...

"... we took the main road and we went to the BP ...",

in fact you said the BP, not the robot, the BP, referring to the garage?

MR NOSENGA: Please repeat that.

MR STRYDOM: In your evidence in chief, you testified that we took the main road and my note is then went to the BP garage.

MR NOSENGA: No, I was questioned on the route we took on our return. I explained the route we took and where the casspirs were parked. When we came back, we went via that route near the BP garage. I don't know whether you misunderstood me or what.

MR STRYDOM: I just want to put to you the record will speak for itself, so you say on your way back, you went passed, on foot, passed the BP garage, is that what you are saying?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct. That is what I stated.

CHAIRPERSON: The note which I took down just before lunch on Monday, it says

"... we were told we would meet the Police outside the hostel, near the BP garage ..."

They said that we must attack on 17th June. This is a report that he was giving in relation to the 14th of June, where he says we were told we had to attack.

ADV SIGODI: They said the day has come, let us prepare ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: They said we were to attack on 17th June, we were told, this is now at this meeting of the 14th, we would meet the Police outside the hostel, near the BP garage.

MR LAX: There is another portion just before that.

MR STRYDOM: There is a portion, I can just read my note Chairperson. Were you divided into groups, that was the question ...

CHAIRPERSON: Was that before this one?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, "no one group cross bridge", I've got telegram style notes here, "came across casspirs. We took main road, went to BP" and then I've got "open veld" after that.

MR LAX: If I could just say my notes says "we went towards the BP garage", but I've got here "we took the main road to leave the hostel via the gate, went towards BP garage, down towards bridge, came across the casspirs."

MR BERGER: Chairperson, if I can assist, my note reads "left the hostel in one group, crossed the bridge and came across the casspirs. We took the main road towards BP, crossed open veld to the bridge, where we came across the casspirs."

MR LAX: Yes, more or less ...

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I accept that, I've got a telegram style, "went towards BP", I haven't got "towards" here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, was it before the portion that I have just read?

MR LAX: Yes.

MR BERGER: Apparently it is after.

CHAIRPERSON: It is after that, oh, okay. Let me just get it. Yes, okay very well.

MR BERGER: I don't take everything, but it comes after the question were there any women at the stadium, which is before they left the stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: All right. Yes, "went through the main gate, we proceeded towards the BP garage, at the open space we met the casspirs." Is that ...

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I will take it from there. The place where you met the casspirs, was that on the Boipatong side of the main road, or still on the kwaMadala side of that road?

MR NOSENGA: On the Boipatong side, that is where we met the casspirs in the veld.

MR STRYDOM: Okay, now I want you to look at Exhibit M2 again and if you accept that the garage is where I pointed point (d) on that paragraph, I also want to point out an open veld on this side, on the Boipatong side of the tar road, is that the veld where you got the casspirs, or found the casspirs?

MR NOSENGA: That is the garage near the robots. This is the spot where we met the casspirs, this is the veld. There is a main road.

MR STRYDOM: Just for record purposes, the witness points to that piece of veld between the main road and Boipatong, it seems to be many footpaths running through that area there.

MR LAX: Perhaps Mr Strydom, you could point out to him that were the tree actually is, that is point (a)?

MR STRYDOM: You referred to a tree, I want you to have a look at this sketch, do you see any tree on that photo?

MR NOSENGA: Here the tree is and here is the veld, and there is the BP garage. I can see although it is not very clear. Here is the veld where we met the casspirs.

MR STRYDOM: The trees you are pointing out, is in front of the factories, if you accept those are the factories, point (e). Just point the trees again.

MR NOSENGA: There - at the Boipatong robots, there are trees around there, but I cannot see properly on that map.

MR STRYDOM: Sorry, I didn't get an interpretation.

MR LAX: What was the last part of what he said, he said something about Boipatong, etc. It wasn't translated to us.

INTERPRETER: He said there was a clump of trees near the robot, the robots at Boipatong and he was repeating that there is a route that goes towards Boipatong and another one that goes towards Sebokeng.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. Did the group follow the tar road up to the robots or not?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, but we did not proceed to the robots directly, but we took another route towards Boipatong. The route that we took, went towards the veld, we did not go directly to the robots.

MR STRYDOM: Can you explain how did the group get to that area where you found the casspirs?

MR NOSENGA: We were one big group when we left the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, and when you eventually got to the tar road and you have to cross the tar road now to get to the Boipatong side, how did you get from there, to the casspirs?

MR NOSENGA: We were one group when we left the hostel, and as we approached the robots, we turned towards the route that goes towards the veld, and the route that we took, was not very far from the robots. As we proceeded along that route, we found those casspirs, that was just before you enter the township.

MR STRYDOM: Can you walk across this tar road and walk onto the open veld area between the tar road and Boipatong, without any problems?

MR NOSENGA: Please repeat that.

MR STRYDOM: As the group went over the tarred road towards Boipatong, did you have any problems getting onto the veld area, or did you have to follow a specific route to get there?

MR NOSENGA: As I mentioned before, we were one group and we did not go towards the robots, but branched off towards that veld. That is where we met the casspirs. As we left the hostel, we were just one group, until we reached that veld.

MR STRYDOM: I want to show you Exhibit M2 again.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Strydom, you know M2 is so vague with regard to that part of the world, M1 is very clear with regard to the departure from the hostel and crossing the roads and all that stuff.

MR STRYDOM: I just want to make sure that I have the same M1. Is M1 ...

MR LAX: M1 has e, f, g, h at the top of it. Unfortunately mine is in black and white but it is much clearer.

MR STRYDOM: Sorry, yes, I should have referred the witness to this photograph. I am going to show you, this is M2, just orientate yourself, see if you can understand that sketch.

MR LAX: Sorry that is M1 as we've got it recorded.

MR STRYDOM: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that M1? All right.

MR STRYDOM: Just to make it easier, do you see the kwaMadala hostel depicted where I point it to you now?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you see the factories that I show to you now?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you see the main road from Vereeniging to Vanderbijl, or Sebokeng/Vanderbijl?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And do you see the Boipatong township that I point to you now?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you see the main road running in front of the factories?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you also see the intersection between these two roads there?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And I point to you now where the garage is, do you see where the garage is?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Now let's start with the position of the casspirs, can you indicate on this Exhibit M1 now the position of the casspirs, where you found them?

MR NOSENGA: There. That is where we found the casspirs.

MR STRYDOM: Just make a cross where you say the casspirs were, if you can make a cross.

MR NOSENGA: Yes, near that forest.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the cross I will point out ...

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct)

MR STRYDOM: There are other crosses, the one cross, I will encircle that cross.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we put his initials next to that cross?

MR STRYDOM: I will do so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: AMN. Did you say you encircled it?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I circled it because there are other crosses as well, so I just marked that cross with a circle to indicate which one the applicant marked.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay, very well. That is the cross which is more or less towards the corner of the, the intersection of the roads, between (e) and (f)?

MR STRYDOM: I can see now, but in the veld. That is the one Chairperson.

MR LAX: Yes, I've got it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson. I want you to indicate now how the group got to that position where the casspirs were - the route.

CHAIRPERSON: From the hostel?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, from the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand what is being required of you?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I do sir.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR STRYDOM: Just point out the route that was followed towards that - I am going to give you a marker pen, pink marker pen, can you draw a line to show ...

MR LAX: Mr Strydom, it might be easier if he just uses his finger, he is not familiar with it.

MR NOSENGA: I cannot see this road quite well. There are several roads here. It is a garage here and factories here, this is the route along here, along Vanderbijlpark, this is the road that we took.

MR STRYDOM: If I point to you the main gate of kwaMadala hostel, I want you to confirm that. It is near that green roofs there, just on the one side of kwaMadala hostel. Was that the position of the main gate?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct sir, that is where the main gate is.

MR STRYDOM: Do you see a parking area in front of the main gate? That is that grey area.

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I can see that.

MR STRYDOM: Do you see the road that comes from Iscor towards the robots and towards the BP garage?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I can see it sir.

MR STRYDOM: The question is, after you left the main gate, you got onto the tar road, is that correct?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, the main road, the one that goes under the bridge.

MR STRYDOM: You walked along underneath the bridge, is that correct?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And you were following the route now towards the BP, is that right?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, now do you see the intersection between Frikkie Meyer and the other road, there at the robots, although you cannot see the robot, but do you see the intersection?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot even see the garage.

MR STRYDOM: But if I point out to you the intersection and I put to you the intersection is at that point I am showing to you now, do you see it, the intersection of that road and that road, do you see that?

MR NOSENGA: Yes. Yes, I can see that intersection.

MR STRYDOM: In relation to the intersection and in relation to the casspirs, can you say how did you get to the casspirs?

MR NOSENGA: We took this road sir, and when we got to the robots near the Boipatong garage, we took this route. This is where we arrived as a group, this is where we met the casspirs.

MR STRYDOM: So what you are pointing out is that you crossed over to the open veld towards the casspirs, very close to the robots, is that correct?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct, yes, we crossed the road.

MR STRYDOM: And at that stage the group was still intact, it was one group of people moving towards the casspirs?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: I want to show you certain trees, I want to put to you that those trees is the fence of a nursery, do you know a nursery close to kwaMadala hostel?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is possible, it could be the trees that we spoke about, yes, that is possible, that is when you go towards the veld on your way to Boipatong, you leave the garage behind a little bit.

MR STRYDOM: As you pointed out, the route you followed, was not a route that will take you behind the nursery towards the tar road, I am going to point it out to you, it is from the tar road, behind the nursery, that will say in between kwaMadala hostel and the nursery, to the right of the nursery, you did not follow that route? I am going to point it out for you, from the tar, behind the nursery towards the tar?

MR NOSENGA: I did indicate that is not the route that we took. I said when we left the robots, we took this direction. I did not say we took that road. I did say that we left the garage behind and the firms, and we took this route towards the veld.

MR STRYDOM: So you did not go behind the nursery, is that correct?

MR NOSENGA: I did say no. We went towards the robots, but we had to take the route through the veld towards the casspirs.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify here, I am hearing you say subtly different things and I am a bit puzzled now. I want you to be clear, this area of trees that is now being pointed out to you, which way did you pass in relation to those trees that is being pointed out to you? I want you to think carefully, show us on that map, which way you went in relation to those trees, because that wasn't pointed out to you before. Just show us carefully.

MR NOSENGA: Sir, this is the route from kwaMadala and this is the tar road towards Boipatong and here is the garage. We went towards the garage, but then we had long walked passed the trees towards Boipatong because the trees are on the side of kwaMadala hostel. We took this road and we went towards the veld. We did not take this route.

MR LAX: Thank you. So in fact you went to the left of those trees as one looks at this picture, to your left hand side, towards the robots and then you cut down into the veld, is that right?

MR NOSENGA: From the robots, we took this route through the veld and you can actually see here the tar road to Vanderbiljpark and you can see the one that is going to Boipatong and the one that is going to the hostel as well. We had left the main road behind or on the side.

MR LAX: The one, if you are looking at that main road, the one that runs from right to left across the photograph, or from left to right whichever way, it would be the one you would have had to cross to get to Boipatong, is that right?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, that is the route that we took.

MR LAX: Listen to my question now. On the left of that photograph, what direction is that, towards which place?

MR NOSENGA: There is one route here that takes me to Sebokeng and another one leads me to Vanderbijl, another one leads me to Boipatong. Here are the firms here.

MR LAX: I can see where the firms are. On the right hand side of the photograph, what direction is that?

MR NOSENGA: It takes me towards Vanderbiljpark.

MR LAX: Thank you Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you. Now at the point you went into the veld, you did not have to cross a bridge, is that correct? Close to the robots where you went into the veld, you did not have to cross a bridge, is that correct or not?

MR NOSENGA: As I have explained, when we left, we took the direction towards the garage, that is towards the Boipatong area, and we then went through this veld.

MR STRYDOM: Let's make it easier, are you aware of a footbridge that is situated lower down, towards Vanderbijl and I am going to point out to you a position of a footbridge, that is lower down towards Vanderbijl, I am pointing out point (h) on Exhibit M1?

MR NOSENGA: Where is this bridge, where is it headed?

MR STRYDOM: You can't see it on the photograph, do you know if there is a bridge or not in that area? A footbridge where I show you point (h)? This area, do you know a footbridge or not?

MR NOSENGA: I cannot recall, no, I do not see it here. But I am saying we took the route, I do not remember. I cannot remember very well, I cannot remember the bridge very well.

MR STRYDOM: To get to the veld, you did not cross a footbridge, is that correct?

MR NOSENGA: No, we went through the veld off the tar road, I don't know which bridge you are talking about. We crossed the road towards Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst we have the map here, on your way back, did you follow the same route from the veld back to the kwaMadala hostel as you have just described to us, or a different route?

MR NOSENGA: We took the main road that leads towards kwaMadala hostel and it goes next to the BP and the firms, the BP garage and the firms.

MR STRYDOM: So, is it then correct to say that on your way back, the group of people you were at that stage, followed the route on the tar towards the BP and then across the main road, towards kwaMadala hostel?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct sir.

MR STRYDOM: On your way back, how many people were in your group on their way back now to the kwaMadala hostel?

MR NOSENGA: There were many of us, I cannot say how many.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, why don't you tell us this, when you were going back, were you still one big group?

MR NOSENGA: On our way back, we only became one group when we met at the hostel, the one that is in Boipatong, or at Boipatong, that is where we grouped together into one group.

CHAIRPERSON: At the hostel you all came together and formed one big group?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, from there to kwaMadala hostel, did you walk as one big group?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct, until we crossed the robots.

CHAIRPERSON: And until you eventually arrived at the hostel?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: So that group on your way back, passed the garage, as you were walking, just on your right hand side?

MR NOSENGA: Some of them were walking on the side of the veld, and others yes, were walking on the tar road itself.

MR STRYDOM: So people positioned at the garage at that stage, would have been able to see this group moving towards the robots to cross the main road, to go back to kwaMadala hostel?

MR NOSENGA: I don't know, but yes, we walked passed the garage.

MR STRYDOM: And whilst walking, you didn't try to hide yourself, you were openly walking towards the robots and then on your way to kwaMadala hostel?

MR NOSENGA: No, we were walking freely in the company of the Police.

MR STRYDOM: If you say that at that stage you were in the company of the Police, what do you mean by that?

MR NOSENGA: Sir, I am saying the Police went back to the hostel in casspirs to deliver the stolen goods, but we were not walking at the same time as the Police casspirs were driving back to the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but if that is the case, why did you say in the company of the Police? The Police already passed and went on their way to kwaMadala hostel, you were walking, why did you say that we were now in the company of the Police?

MR NOSENGA: I am not saying we were in the company of the Police, the Police drove back to the hostel with induna's first and we came back later, we followed later rather.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I see it is four o'clock, will it be an appropriate stage to take the adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: How far are you from ...

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I hope to finish, it is difficult to say it depends on how long it is going to take obviously to get certain answers, but I envisage that I may finish by lunch tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think in that event, we may just have to go on so as to save time.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn at half past four.

MR STRYDOM: As you please Mr Chairman. When you got to the casspirs, on your way now, again I am going to take you back, on your way to attack Boipatong, you said there were four casspirs, they were standing in the veld, did they have their lights on?

MR NOSENGA: No, the lights were off.

MR STRYDOM: You have already told us who was driving the casspir you got into and the other occupants, did you see who were driving and other occupants, apart from the attackers, of the other casspirs?

INTERPRETER: May the question please be repeated?

MR STRYDOM: You said there were four casspirs. I am not referring to the casspir where you eventually got into, I am referring to the other three casspirs, could you see who the drivers were and who the other passengers were?

MR NOSENGA: No sir, I did not see. I did not see that, I don't know the people who were driving those casspirs.

MR LAX: Did you see who the other passengers were?

MR NOSENGA: There were many of us, people were just getting into the casspirs as it was possible, and I got into this one particular casspir.

MR STRYDOM: Who made the decision which person must get into which casspir?

MR NOSENGA: I had indicated that it was Gatchene who indicated.

MR STRYDOM: Did Gatchene ...

MR BERGER: I am sorry to interrupt Chairperson, we have arranged consultations, could Ms Malindi and I please be excused? Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: The question is did Mr Gatchene also tell the other attackers to get into certain casspirs, so he divided them up, saying this group will go to this casspir and this group with that casspir?

MR NOSENGA: Sir, he said people should get into the casspirs because some of them went to Boipatong on foot. A casspir is not so big, some of them were walking. I only heard him saying "gentlemen, here are the casspirs, get inside."

MR STRYDOM: Was it out of your own free will that you got into the casspir, nobody told you to do so?

MR NOSENGA: No, it was of my own free will that I got into the casspir in which Peens and others were travelling.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you get into the casspir with Peens if he was the person that was responsible to torture you on various occasions?

MR NOSENGA: This person tortured me when I was still in the township, will you please repeat the question.

MR STRYDOM: There are four casspirs, Gatchene told the people that they could get into the casspirs. You wanted to get into a casspir, now you choose the casspir of Peens, the person that has been responsible to torture you on previous occasions, that is what I am asking you an explanation, why didn't you choose one of the other casspirs?

MR NOSENGA: I just chose that one, it was out of my choice. I cannot say exactly what reason I had, I just chose to get into that casspir.

MR STRYDOM: I have reached a stage where the people got into the casspirs, did the four casspirs move more or less at the same time, in the same direction with the people walking next to the casspirs?

MR NOSENGA: Please repeat that question.

MR STRYDOM: All the people got into the casspir, not all the people, some of the people got into the casspirs, some were still outside, and now did you start moving towards the township?

MR NOSENGA: The casspirs were driving in convoy.

MR STRYDOM: So in convoy, you mean the one behind the other one, one in front and then one after that, in convoy, is that right?

MR NOSENGA: Yes. Some people walked on foot as we entered Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: So when the casspirs entered Boipatong, they were still in convoy?

MR NOSENGA: When they entered the township, they separated, they went to different streets in the township.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. If I show you Exhibit M1 again, can you just indicate where the convoy entered Boipatong just before they split up? I want you to do it with reference to the position the casspirs were initially. Can you just indicate which route did they follow to the township?

MR NOSENGA: They took that direction, that is the route that they took and when they entered the township, they went to different streets, but I cannot see the streets on this picture.

MR STRYDOM: The witness is pointing out more or less in the middle of the township, on the kwaMadala side of the township, the casspirs entered Boipatong, is that right?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct. There is a big street somewhere around there, but I don't see it on the picture.

MR STRYDOM: I want to show you Exhibit J, I see you are shaking your head, I will try to explain this map to you. The open veld you have just indicated on the photograph, is to the left of this plan.

CHAIRPERSON: What Exhibit is this?

MR STRYDOM: Exhibit J.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit J, yes?

MR STRYDOM: The open veld is somewhere here, to the left, the factories are on this side, and this map depicts, indicates or shows the various streets in Boipatong with all the houses, do you see it?

MR NOSENGA: I do see, but I do not understand a thing.

MR STRYDOM: I want you to try to understand it, because you start shaking your head before even I try to explain it to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you seen that map before?

MR NOSENGA: No. I see it for the first time. This is the first time that I see it. I do not think I am in a position to read it.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. I want to put to you that you indicated that the casspirs entered more or less in the middle of the township and that will be somewhere close to Bapedi Street or Majola Street or Imzimbubu Street in Boipatong, that one is Imzimbubu, that one is Bapedi and that is Majola Street. You indicated that the casspirs entered from this side, is that correct?

MR NOSENGA: I did say so. At the beginning of the township, at the entrance of the township.

MR STRYDOM: Immediately after the casspir you were with, entered the township, what happened?

MR NOSENGA: We got off the casspir, took cover and went into the first house. Some people broke windows, we went into the house and I partook in the shooting of people in that house. I went to the dining room and I did not see anyone there.

MR STRYDOM: Was that at the stage before you reached - do you know where the shops are in Boipatong?

MR NOSENGA: I only know the one that is close to the hostel in Boipatong, near the taxi rank. That is the shop that I know. It is near the main road on the taxi route.

MR STRYDOM: When you entered the first house, was that before you reached the shops that you know?

MR NOSENGA: That is so.

MR STRYDOM: After you entered Boipatong, can you give an indication, how many houses did you pass before you went into the first house, roughly if you can estimate?

MR NOSENGA: I said there is one house at the entrance, and that is the first house in which we went into.

MR STRYDOM: That is the house that you said was painted white? You said a white house, is that right?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Shortly after you entered, you went into that house. Did you kill any person in that house, that white house?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, there is a person that I killed.

MR STRYDOM: You had an AK47 with you, was the weapon set on automatic or did you fire single shots?

MR NOSENGA: I used that interchangeably, sometimes I would use single shots and sometimes put it on automatic.

MR STRYDOM: When you fired shots at the first person, did you use it on automatic or singular shots?

MR NOSENGA: I don't remember.

MR STRYDOM: The person that you killed, at the stage when you fired shots, how far was that person from you?

MR NOSENGA: The person was close because he was inside a house. I shot at that person at close range.

MR STRYDOM: Can you say if it was a man, a woman or a child?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember. I don't remember whether it was a man or a woman.

MR STRYDOM: Did you fire more than one shot towards this person, or not?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember, but the person fell.

MR STRYDOM: After the white house, you entered the second house, is that correct?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: In the second house, let me first ask you, this second house, how far was that from the first house, from the white house?

MR NOSENGA: The houses were like this, they were on both sides of the road. But it wasn't much of a distance between the two houses.

MR STRYDOM: But was it still close to the place where you entered the township from the veld?

MR NOSENGA: Yes. It was close because it was just on one street, although I do not remember the street name, but there were houses on both sides of the street.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from you, did some other attackers also enter the second house?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, if I remember correctly, there were people who entered the second house, people like Dondo. Some were on the street, shooting from there.

MR STRYDOM: Not somewhere from the streets, I am asking you, you said you entered the second house, did any other attacker enter the second house?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, because I was in a group, there were five of us. There were people who entered the house while others remained in the street.

MR STRYDOM: Were you the only person with an AK47 that entered that house?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember.

MR STRYDOM: Did you kill people in the second house?

MR NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Did you shoot the people at close range?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, because the house is not very big, it is a four roomed house. They were not far.

MR STRYDOM: How many people did you kill in the second house?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember.

MR STRYDOM: Did you kill more than one person, or can't you say, that is in the second house?

MR NOSENGA: I said I do not remember just how many there were, but they did die.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Nosenga, you enter a house, you've got an AK47, you see people, you fire shots at them. Did you see any person that fell down because of a shot that you fired?

MR NOSENGA: Yes sir, I said I did see some people falling, but I do not know how many were killed.

MR STRYDOM: The question was in the second house, the person or people that you fired shots to, were they adults or children?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember whether it was adults or children.

MR STRYDOM: So don't you remember seeing children in that house or not? Let me ask you this - did you see children in that house?

MR NOSENGA: I do not remember well. I do not remember whether there were children present.

MR STRYDOM: Because I see in your evidence in chief you said "we went to the second house, and we killed children and adults", why did you say that?

MR NOSENGA: I said I did kill people, but I do not know who they were.

CHAIRPERSON: He is asking you about what you said in your evidence in chief.

MR NOSENGA: I said I do not know how many people I killed.

CHAIRPERSON: You said now you don't know whether you killed children or adults at the second house, what he is putting to you is that in your evidence in chief, you said you went into the second house, you killed children - did he say women as well?

MR STRYDOM: My note reads children and adults, women and children. The question is why did you say that in the second house children were killed?

MR NOSENGA: It is possible that I said so, but when I went into that house, there were people. I said there were people in the second house and I shot at them. I do not know whether children were present there.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but what he is asking you is why did you say in your evidence in chief that you went into the second house, you killed women and children when you now tell is that you don't know whether there were children or whether there adults in the second house?

MR NOSENGA: It is possible that I did kill them.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand what he wants you to explain?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: He just wants you to explain why do you tell us now that you do not know whether you killed adults or children in the second house, whereas earlier on you had told us in your evidence in chief, that in the second house you killed women and children? Do you have any explanation for that?

MR NOSENGA: I understand you. It is possible that I could have killed the woman because there were men and women in that house.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand that question?

MR NOSENGA: You say I give evidence to the effect that I killed women and children in that house.

CHAIRPERSON: Counsel says that when you gave your evidence in chief, you said you went into the second house and shot at women and children, but as he asks you a question now as to whether you remember who you killed in that house, you say you do not remember whether there were women or children. Do you see the difference?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What he wants to know is why do you give these two versions, two different versions?

MR NOSENGA: It may be that I am forgetful. Ever since I have been assaulted by the Police, I have this problem of being forgetful. Also it is possible that I did kill the adults and children in that house.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you've got a memory problem because you had been assaulted by the Police?

MR NOSENGA: After the assaults I suffered at the hands of the Police.

CHAIRPERSON: With your memory?

MR NOSENGA: Yes, I have a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: With your memory?

MR NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When you are moving to the other aspect, let us know so that we can take an adjournment.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I want to move now to the third house, so this will be an appropriate stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will adjourn and resume at nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

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