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Human Rights Violation Hearings


Starting Date 09 June 1997

Location CAPE TOWN

Day 1


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MS BURTON: Mr Finye, are you happy to speak English or do you want to hear Xhosa on the translation?

MR FINYE: Xhosa.

MS BURTON: Can you hear me well now in the Xhosa translation? I am going to ask you please to swear the oath.

JOHN FINYE: (Duly sworn, states).

MS BURTON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Finye, you have somebody who has accompanied you here. Is that person going to speak, is it a member of your family? You can keep them on and then you wait, then you will just hear the translation. The person who is with you, is it a friend or a member of your family?

MR FINYE: This person who is here with me is a witness, an eye witness. She was also present and I would also be speaking about her.

MS BURTON: And will she be speaking as well?

MR FINYE: If it becomes necessary, because some of the things she knows more than I do.

MS BURTON: Perhaps then we will ask her now to swear the oath, so that we don't waste time later on. She will have to put the ear-phones on and have the microphone in front of her. Can you hear me well now in Xhosa?

She will be speaking in Xhosa. Please will you stand then to take the oath?

RUTH KEBISELA: (Duly sworn, states).

MS BURTON: Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Mary. Glenda Wildschut will now be leading the questions.

MS WILDSCHUT: Afternoon, Mr Finye. Are you comfortable, can you hear me through your ear-phones, the translation through your ear-phones?

MR FINYE: I can hear, yes.

MS WILDSCHUT: Mr Finye, you will be talking about your son and an incident that happened in 1985, when he was 17. Please go ahead and tell us about ...

MR FINYE: 1986.

MS WILDSCHUT: 1986, quite right.

MR FINYE: Ja. It was on a Saturday. On the 24th in May 1986. My son and his friends went to Khayelitsha in a motor vehicle. They left Guguletu and went to Khayelitsha. In that motor vehicle. There were six people, three were men and three were women. They were all together in this vehicle. It was on a Saturday night, on the 24th of May 1986. On their way to Khayelitsha, it was in the evening, when they got to Crossroads. Near the Cold Storage factory, when they got there, they saw a group of people who had blockaded the road near the factory. That is where the problem started, at that particular road block. Their vehicle was stopped. They stopped. When they stopped, this group of young men and old men got them out of the vehicle. My son was in the front of the vehicle and his friend, who was also young. His name was, his friend's name was Vuyani, his friend's name was Vuyani Thobosa. They were in the front seats of the vehicle. They were both taken out of the vehicle. They were hurriedly taken out of the vehicle. They were taken immediately from the other four people. When that happened they left with these men and disappeared, into a forest which wasn't far from Noxolo School. Not far from the school is a forest. At that time, I don't know now. They were taken in that vicinity.

The rest of the crowd took the other four people, because they were all out of the vehicle. They all witnessed this. When this happened, the people who had been left behind were taken by these men, a crowd of men. The four people were taken. They followed behind the first group that had left, but they were unable to see them, because they were far ahead. They were taken to Noxolo School. When they were taken, there was a man who had remained behind with the girls. So this boy joined these old men and they didn't recognise them because it was dark. They didn't realise that there were now three people, his young boy was amongst them. The young boy got a chance to get away and escape from that crowd. He ran away and he came back to his home.

At that point the three girls who remained, were taken and locked up in Crossroads, at that same school, Noxolo School. After that, when the kids relayed, they said they were very badly treated by those old gentlemen, hitting them and doing all sorts of things to them that night. Until they took them to this house where they locked them up. They were told that they would be released the next day and their parents should bring R50,00 to release them the next morning.

At that point, if I may continue with my story, the following morning on Sunday, because this happened on Saturday evening, we were not aware of anything as parents all the time, because we were not there. We got the information the next day, on Sunday. A young man came to our house at about mid-day, between 12 and one. This young man, we know this young man, he was not staying far from us, a street which is in front of our street, which is NY69, opposite our house. That's how we knew this man, he was staying at NY69. On Sunday, about mid-day, and we have been trying to find out from the other young boys if they had not seen our son. Because he didn't come back the previous night until that morning. We didn't have any information as to where he was.

We got information about him for the first time when this boy from NY69 came. Because they knew us, he came because we knew the parents of him. He was from Crossroads, he came to our house at half past 12 because he was no longer at 69, he was staying with his father at Crossroads.

It so happened that when all this was happening, he was that side. That is why he quickly came to give us the information and gave us a picture of what happened the previous night. He told us that our sons and girls have been detained and they have been locked up at Crossroads. He didn't know what had happened to them, whilst during their detention. But he told us that he got information, he heard that they were taken in Saturday evening.

So as parents we began to take some steps, when we got this information, and this young boy was also telling us we couldn't get into Crossroads at all. Why, we asked. He said no one is allowed to go into Crossroads, we can also not go. Even if you can take your car, there is no way you can get into Crossroads. My wife and I took a car, drove to the police station at Guguletu for help, about this information we got that our son is one of the victims that have been detained at Crossroads the previous evening, the Saturday evening.

The police at Guguletu station told us that they could not, they themselves could not enter Crossroads. They said only Casspirs could go into Crossroads. They told us that they couldn't go into Crossroads, because of the extent of how bad the situation was. So we asked for advice as to our next step, and we were told that we had to pay R50,00 to release them. So even there the police had no advice to give us with regard as to how we could enter Crossroads. They only told us that it could only be Casspirs. So we gave up on Sunday at Guguletu police station.

We went back home. At home we discussed this problem as to how we could get out of it and solve it, because we heard that it is R50,00 to be paid, and we had R50,00; how were we going to deliver it under those circumstances. They demanded money but they couldn't let people in. This was a problem to us. So whilst we were debating this, the sun set and Sunday, the 25th.

After sunset, at about early evening, towards eight o'clock or so, we heard a knock on the door, and these kids came in. They were the two girls, who had come to report to us as parents about the previous night's trip. So we wondered how they themselves could get away. Whilst we were listening to them, we said how do you manage to be here, where are your friends, how did you escape, and how did the other parents - your parents go into Crossroads, because we heard that we couldn't go into Crossroads. The kids told us that they were released by comrades and their parents didn't go.

So they were released by the comrades who collected money from their homes. Unfortunately the comrades didn't know us, they just knew our kids and not us. So I asked the girls how, what happened, how did it go, just explain to us so that we could know.

They informed us that we left here and went to Nyanga and we met up with a road block, and then we were arrested and the two boys were taken and were taken towards the forest. We don't know what happened to them. But we thought we should inform you that they never returned. We were arrested and worried. We asked these men what happened to the young man that you left with. There was no answer. They couldn't answer us. They couldn't answer directly. Then the children kept on asking where our friends were. They asked these men where the two men were, the ones who had taken him to the forest. It was apparent that one man tried to get closer to us; when he got closer he asked us what our clan names were. We gave him our clan names. Then he said listen here, children, don't cry. Don't you dare show that you have now changed, I am now going to whisper something into your ears. He said to them these people that you are talking about and you are asking questions about them, and you are not giving answers, they have been finished, something has been done. He reiterated that they shouldn't try and change their attitude and that they should try and keep matters quiet, because he was scared that he was going to be killed, should this information leak out. He told them that they were killed the previous evening. The two girls were released with the R50,00 bail that had been collected. I am not sure whether it was bails or fine. They were released and they went home, and they informed us on Sunday evening, on the 25th.

We were a bit confused. My wife and I were a bit confused. The following morning, on Monday, the 26th of May 1986, I asked my wife what should we do today. I was thinking that you should go and work. Go and teach as the principal of the school. I will go to the mortuary. I will take one man who lives in the same street to go and check for the bodies. Because we are hearing rumours that there are people who have been sent to the mortuary on Sunday evening, Sunday morning. We have heard rumours that there were people who had been sent to the mortuary on the 25th of May 1986.

We left to the mortuary on Monday. When we got to the mortuary we explained that we are parents and we have come to look for our children, because they disappeared on Saturday and we haven't heard anything from them. We were wondering if they were not at the mortuary. We got the permission to get in at the mortuary to see whether we could get these two children. We went in to the mortuary to try and see if the bodies were there. When we got into the first room - this man and I were very shocked. The drawers were opened, right around the room. It was full of bodies in the mortuary in this room. This was only the first room at the mortuary. We couldn't get them at that particular room. Underneath - it looked as if we were in a butchery. It was full of blood. The bodies were lying on the blood. The shelves were full of bodies. We couldn't get him in the first room.

We went to the second room. When we got to the second room, even there it was the same situation as the first room. The bodies were from the ground floor. It was impossible to walk. In some cases we had to walk over the bodies. All the bodies were in the shelves. The shelves were full of bodies, from the first shelf right up to the fifth shelf. All the drawers were full of bodies. We were surprised.

What was more shocking was the blood on the floor that we were treading on and jumping over the bodies. When we also looked at the other bodies, they looked like bodies of people that had been burnt. These bodies were also on the floor. They looked like wood. They looked like burnt wood. These bodies were charred and resembled burnt blocks. It was the first scene I had ever experienced in my life. We didn't get my child in that particular room.

We went to the third room, and the same situation was there. All these rooms were full from the mortuary, all three rooms were full. We went through all the drawers and we couldn't get him. We also looked on the floor. There were bodies there on their backs, and they were also lying on the blood which resembled water. Notice that this was people's blood. There was not a single room which didn't have blood, all three had blood.

In the third room, I believe it was the last room, we finished all the shelves. When we went to another corner in the room, in the shelving, we looked on the floor and we saw my son lying in one corner.

I want to say this business - that is one thing that has troubled me for the rest of my life, to find my son in that position, having done nothing, killed innocently.

When I got him lying there we were given our rights and cars. We were returned home with the bad news and the situation was worse when we got home. Especially the child's mother. I still feel bad that when I come to this Commission, I have this bad luck. If you look at me, you will find that on my chest I am black and blue. I am black and blue on my chest. I have these colours that I got at the door and that colour from home. Unfortunately, or fortunately, my wife died a month ago. A month ago my wife passed away.

Now I want to say that I feel glad that she was unable to be with us today, because one of the wounds that was one of the worst wounds, is that she had a heart attack. In two hours time, in the early hours of the day - apparently she had a heart attack two hours before at about four o'clock in the morning and she passed away at six o'clock the same day. We called for ambulances, but they never came. From quarter past four and five o'clock they never turned up. All right.

Time went by, and it went to half past six. I am sorry that I am getting away from the topic, something is bothering me. Something is bothering me.

At quarter to six, the ambulance didn't arrive then. Her last words - her last words were "when they come, tell them I have been waiting too long, I am now leaving".


... she has been waiting long for you and you didn't come, so I am leaving.

I want to say I am trying to get rid of this pain, because of the pains that hurt, about her son, her only son. The only son we had.

Now I would like to go further. When we came back from the mortuary and we had seen his body and we went home to report this matter, the news was received badly. We made preparations for the funeral on the 31st of May which was a Saturday. We prepared for the funeral. On Friday before the funeral, young men came to the house, that are known as the comrades from the United Democratic Front. They came on Friday when we were at - they told us that they were with us. Because he was our friend. So therefore, they said that they would also take part in the funeral, and that we shouldn't try about paying for the expenses of the undertakers. We informed them that we had already made arrangements, considering the fact that you are now telling us on Friday. On Saturday the funeral took place on the 31st. When the funeral was on at home, during the service of the funeral, a young man came. This happened before the grace. A crowd came of comrades, and they told us that we shouldn't worry about the hearse, they are going to carry his coffin on their shoulders. He was going to be taken to NY153, the corner of NY53 and 78, there is another church, a Methodist Church. They said that they were going to take his body there straight from home at the Methodist Church, to meet up with others, his other friends, who were also being buried on the same day.

When we had finished at home, they took his coffin and placed it on their shoulders and went to 53. When we got to 53 it was full, the service was full of people. When we got there the stage was full of preachers, ministers that were present. The service was conducted. It was conducted by the organisation, the UDF. The service went smoothly. Towards the end of the service there was a lot of commotion. We didn't know what was going on. When we got out after church, the bodies, the coffins were carried on the shoulders and they were carried to the graveyard. As we were entering 78, not far from the church, going to the graveyard, we didn't know what was happening. We heard gunshots. There were many gun shots and people dispersed. Tear-gas was also sprayed and people dispersed. It was a funeral of dispersal. People were being choked by this smoke of these things, what do you call them? If you could call them these tear-gases. The coffins were dropped on the road and the people ran away. These coffins were sprawled on NY78. I see that the journalists made it news in Cape Town about this funeral. My child was amongst those people when the bullets were being fired. We met up with him at the graveyard. There wasn't a procession to the graveyard. That is how the funeral happened.

After the funeral what happened. After the funeral, after we had buried my son, the following week, an investigation officer came to my house. He invited us to attend a court case in Athlone. We were informed that we had to go to court in Athlone. We were a bit surprised. We are going to court in Athlone? About a child that had been killed? Now when we get to court what are we going to say, because we never witnessed anything. When that is so, we went to Athlone, the Athlone court with my wife. In

Athlone at the court, we realised that there were five men that we met at the court. We were informed that they came from Crossroads. The court case proceeded and we looked like observers, because we couldn't understand why we had been called. The court case continued at the Athlone court and it was adjourned. We were informed that it was going to be transferred to the Wynberg court and the date was put for the court hearing. It was the following week.

We then went to Wynberg court, and even there, when we got to Wynberg, it was clear that the magistrate in Wynberg - the case wasn't very clear. There wasn't enough evidence. In other words, there was no case. So that was the last time we were ever called in court. We were never called to any other court, concerning this case. Except that it became clear in Wynberg that there was not enough evidence. What was surprising, was that after that whilst we were at work, where we were working, a detective came one day and this officer came, he found my wife. I was out at school. My wife was the principal of the school. We are at the school, I am the caretaker at the school. So came this investigating officer in my absence. He had with him a sport coat, the one that was worn by my son at the time he was being taken away from the car to be murdered. This investigating officer had this sport coat. He said he has come to show us that to find out if we knew, we could recognise it. My wife said yes, this is his sports coat, this is my son's sports coat, he was wearing this, this is the one. So the officer said no, I just wanted to come and check if you could recognise it. Then he took it back. We never saw it. The same investigating officer we never saw him. He never had to follow the sports coat. What I mean, is in those words, I am sorry, I was meant to be brief, but I didn't really plan to take so long. Especially because I have this young lady next to me, whom I would wish to give a chance to say a few words about this whole issue, because she is the one who was there. She saw it, she saw it with her own eyes, this young lady next to me.

MS WILDSCHUT: Thanks, Mr Finye, thank you. I think it is important that we give Ruth a chance to tell us what happened, because she was there. But thank you very much for telling us your side of the story. After Ruth has spoken, I would like to make some comments about your testimony as well. Could we pass the microphone on to Ruth, please. Ruth, are you going to speak in Xhosa or in English?


MS WILDSCHUT: So maybe you should put on the ear-phones so you can hear my translation. Maybe, Ruth, if you could - could you move just a little bit closer to the microphone. Can you tell us what happened on the day that you were together with your friends and you were taken by people when you were in the car?

MS KEBISELA: Yes, I can tell you.

MS WILDSCHUT: Please go ahead.

MS KEBISELA: In 1986, May, the date was the 24th, it was myself and the late Vuyani, late Lukhanyiso, (indistinct) in my car, there were six of us. We were on our way to Khayelitsha. It was about eight, eight pm. We were going to Khayelitsha. We were going to a party and the six of us were going to a party in Vuyani's car. On our way, on the main road straight to Khayelitsha. We went past Table Top, near Table Top we found that the road was blocked. There was a pile of tyres piled up across the road. The stones were thrown at our car. Then we got shocked, what's happening, what's happening here, why are they throwing stones, and there is an old gentleman hiding behind this pile of tyres. He said stop, stop, stop, Miss, stop your car, and then the car was stopped. When the car stopped we asked what's happening. Then he said get off, get off, we want the driver. We want your driver, get out. It was the driver and I was inside and late Lukhanyiso was on this side at the back, it was Maweto, Tom Lakaya, it was three, three. He said get out, get off, driver. The driver went. Then late Lukhanyiso was also pulled out. They said open the door, and then they opened the doors. And then we asked what is happening. He said yes, you are comrades, you are the Guguletu comrades, what do you want here. We said no, we are going to Khayelitsha, that we are not comrades, we don't know what is happening. Then they said that the late Lukhanyiso and the late Vuyani and another crowd and we were still next to the car, and the two are taken by one group of this old gentlemen, took them away. We were watching them. We were standing next to the car as they were taking them away.

Whilst we were looking where were these old gentlemen taking our friends. Then another group of old gentlemen came and then they took us. They took us away. We asked where are we going. We couldn't see one another. One group had gone and we ourselves were going with these old gentlemen. They took us. Possibly on the way as we were walking, which wasn't easy, we were being beaten. We didn't know what we had done. They were pricking us with sharp instruments and hitting us with axes and the three of us were all girls, and we asked what have we done, where are you taking us to. They said yes, you kids of prostitutes, we have got you now. We are going to show you what you want. And we don't see the other two, because they have been taken by another group. They were hitting us, and with sjamboks as well.

Then they said to us, let's take them to a nice place, let's take them to Mbongwani, that is what these old men are saying, let's take them to Mbongwani. Then the others are saying let's take them to Pollsmoor. All this time they were hitting us. They were hitting us. They were pricking us with this sharp instruments. So they clapped us with open hands, if they wanted to, they kicked us if they wanted to. So we moved, and they were debating, saying let's go and kill them. The others were saying no, don't kill them, let's take them to Pollsmoor first. We thought they were talking about the real Pollsmoor, the boer place and that would be safe, because this couldn't happen to Pollsmoor, because we felt it would be better to be taken to the boers in Pollsmoor. So they took us. When we - and then others said no, they must not go to Pollsmoor, let's take them to the Red Sea. So we said where is the Red Sea.

Then we decided no, when we ask questions they start hitting us even more. So we take them to the Red Sea, take them. One would pull you this way, the other one would approach you that way. Then we were traversing Crossroads and the night was falling and through this passages, and then they said you are going to tell the truth. We said what truth, because we don't know, we haven't done anything. So they went round Crossroads and then we came to some big sea and one of these men, one man said do you see this Red Sea. So I said yes, here is the Red Sea. Then they said come, come close to the Red Sea. Then we were crying because we could see the Red Sea. We stood next to the Red Sea.

Then when we looked we saw a head floating in the water and the lower part of the body. We were standing next to this Red Sea. Then they said you are going to go through that experience here. Then we started crying because we could see now what the Red Sea was and we could see some human heads floating and headless bodies floating. We asked, we apologised, and what have we done. Then they said you will see.

Then they said and then they are arguing. They were arguing. One said this deserves a tyre, this deserves a tyre. Then they hit us. What size do you wear? What size do you wear, tell the truth, what size of tyre do you take. Then we said no, we don't know sizes of tyres. Then they hit us. They said you are going to tell the truth, what size of tyres do you take. So we didn't know what sizes of tyres we could put on. Then they brought three tyres. And so it happened all the other time. The third boy they didn't see. He was amongst these men. They didn't see him and he was listening to everything they were saying. Apparently he ran away when they were telling us we were going to the Red Sea and he disappeared and they didn't see him. As he told us later, he hid underneath the car and three tyres were brought. They were put next to us. Then they were put around our necks, three of us. Then came with a big tin of paraffin, which was this big. Then there was some argument. Others say no, then they disagreed on what to do with us. We said well, God is on our side because there they are fighting, they don't know what to do with us.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Sorry. Please just give her a chance to listen. We know what she is saying is very touching, but please let's just be patient and keep quiet.

MS KEBISELA: So we had these tyres around our necks and there is a paraffin tin and there is one old man who apparently was sympathetic. He said people, we are going to fight with Khayelitsha, because these people are not from Guguletu. They say they are going to Khayelitsha. So if you kill these kids, there are problems with Khayelitsha people. So they were debating against one another. Then another one agreed with this man and said no, if these kids are really going to Khayelitsha, let's take them to jail instead. And they argued for a long time and then there was a Hippo which passed. It was written B6. Whilst these old gentlemen were doing this to us, there was this B6 Hippo with some boers in it. They took us. They said they are taking us to prison. We thought they were taking us to some cells in Pollsmoor. They put us into this very, very big shack in Crossroads. This big shack where we were put in, the three of us, we found inside it, it is well-prepared. It looks very nicely. They said go and sit there in the cells, there is a surprise that is going to happen to us. They opened big, it is a big shack, but it is partitioned into different rooms. So we were put into our own room and then they said someone is going to come and get you, we are still going to kill you, we are still going to kill you. Someone is going to fetch you to kill you. So we sat there wondering what to do. Wondering where the others were, our three friends, our three male friends. Even this one was, the third one that had also disappeared. After a while we heard some groaning in the next room, someone is groaning, someone is groaning. It so happened that it was the third one, the one who ran away. Apparently he ran away and then they caught up with him and then they hurt him on his head and then they put him into this room, bleeding like that. Then we shouted who are you and said who are you. Then he said I am Momone. Then we felt relieved. So we thought maybe the others are there. He said I am dying from pain. We said what happened. He said no, these old men have hurt me with an axe on my head. Then we cried. Then he said please don't scream, these old men will come and then he asked - we asked where is Lukhanyiso and Vuyani. He said no, I don't know, I haven't seen them. He said no, let's keep quiet and we will see what happens the next day.

Somewhere towards dawn the door was opened. Then we were called by our names, one by one. Then we were taken for a hearing in court. They said you are going to a court hearing. Thambakaya was called. He was the first to be called out. (Indistinct) and I were still locked in the cell. Thambakaya was taken out. Whilst we were waiting we heard Thambakaya screaming and he was being beaten. She was screaming. It was clear that she was being beaten. She was oh, yoi, yoi. And then they came, called me, number two, they called me, number two. So I went. When I got in there, one gentleman is a magistrate and there is a policeman, there is a prosecutor, there is a detectives, amongst these old gentlemen. So I was taken on a lifted platform. I was made to stand on this platform, like a witness box. They say have you been sent by Guguletu comrades. I said no, we don't know, we are going to Khayelitsha. Oh, you are still telling the same lies, and then they started hitting us. They would kick you or prick you with a sharp instrument, clap you with an open hand. You look at this one, this one is pricking you, this one is hitting you with an axe, couldn't speak. They said okay, we will see you tomorrow morning. Okay, next one. So they put me back to the cell, called Nombiweto, who was number three. She was also being interrogated. The same questions, the same experience. She was being hit. Then she was brought back. Then Momo, the boy next door was called. So we shouted at him and told that we were coming from that place that was called the court. So we said don't say anything different from what we said, and Momo said ja, I did hear what you said, I will stick to it. So they call him, bleeding like that, and they interrogated him. He said the same thing that we said. He didn't say anything different, and then they brought him back.

So we sat in the cell. It was towards dawn now. Then they would come in one by one and then they would just hit with whatever they had in their hands. Clap you with an open hand, leave you, another one comes, and then do what he would like and leave and we stayed there at dawn. They said are there any people that you know at Crossroads. Then we said yes, there is someone we know at Crossroads, yes. They said who. We said Didji's father. Then they said oh so-and-so, the one who is a Venda here. So we said yes. They said if we call this man, if he comes and he says he doesn't know you, we will kill you. We prayed that this man, if he could only remember us, if he had forgotten us we would be killed. So he came in. Then we looked at him and we called at him, and said Didji's father. He said oh, is it you? We said yes. He said where were you going. So we explained we were going to Khayelitsha and here we are being killed. So we are under arrest, that's what we were told, and we were told that we will either die here or pay a bail of R50,00 and we don't have money, we have nothing. We can't get out of here, couldn't you please help us. Didji's father said does Didji know your homes? We said yes. And then they said Didji should be fetched and Didji came. He talked to us, he said is it you. He said what happened. We said no we were on our way to Khayelitsha and then we - now we don't see Lukhanyiso, we don't see Vuyani and we are not all here. We said so please help us. He said okay, where do I start. So he said I will go to explain this news and I will also go and report to the comrades. So he left and then he came back again with the moneys from our homes, apparently, to release us. So we left. We were released by these old gentlemen. They said we could fend for ourselves. So we walked and we were crying, because before we were released there was one old man who came and he said yes, you girls, is that you I met yesterday. We said yes. He said what's your clan name? I gave him my clan name. He went to Thombakaya and asked for her clan name. Thombakaya answered. The next one said, so we told him our clans. So he said aren't you the one who got married in the Transkei to someone, and Thombakaya said yes, but it was not true, but that was her sister, but she thought that would save her. She said yes, that's me. He said no, I know your husband. He said where is your husband? He is still in the Transkei. He said don't cry. She said some of us are not here, but whilst you are going home, others are not here, we don't know where the other two are. This old man said don't bother, don't cry, just thank God that you are safe, the other ones, the other two, they have been sorted out, they have been hacked to death, I was there. I said oh, is that true? He said yes. He said let's go to Nyanga East. We decided to go to Nyanga East and tell to the comrades and we cried. We said please, comrades, come with us, we don't know how we are going to explain this to our parents. We are scared because these kids were with us, please go and speak for us to their parents. Because we don't know what has happened to their sons. The comrades took us - the comrades from Nyanga East took us. So we said please help us, take us to the parents of our comrades. Then the comrades took us with their friend, who was Tshonge and explained to Tshonge, explained to them that Vuyani and Lukhanyiso have been hacked to death. We don't know how to explain this to Mr Finye. Vuyani's mother, we didn't know what to say about her son, please come with us and speak for us. So indeed they took us to our friends' parents. Then they explained to the parents that we were going to Khayelitsha and this is what happened to us. Fine. Then we were taken to our homes and then we stayed at our homes. When we thought our friends have died, what are we going to do, what are we going to do. Whilst we were staying, whilst we were still with our parents, the time for the funeral came. That was a Saturday. Then on the day of the funeral ... (intervention).

MS WILDSCHUT: Sorry, I am sorry to interrupt you. Before you go on to the funeral, can I just ask you about the shack. Do you know where the big shack, where you were interrogated and where you were kept, do you know where that shack is?

MS KEBISELA: Yes, it is a big one at Nxolo, at Crossroads.

MS WILDSCHUT: Is the shack still there, can it be identified?

MS KEBISELA: I don't know, I have never been to Crossroads since then. I don't know if it is still there or not.

MS WILDSCHUT: And did it look like a warehouse, like a big factory shack or was it a shack built by people, maybe looked like a big house or something?

MS KEBISELA: It is a big shack, it is partitioned into a different number of rooms inside, it is a very big shack.

MS WILDSCHUT: Like a factory warehouse?

MS KEBISELA: Yes, like maybe this church, but partitioned into rooms, into different rooms.

MS WILDSCHUT: So the rooms were the same rooms in the shack where it was also like a court?

MS KEBISELA: Yes, it looked like cells in court, but then there were shack, not brick made.

MS WILDSCHUT: Okay. Now the people who were interrogating you, the people who were asking you the questions and ill treating you while they were asking the questions, are they the same people who stopped you at the road block?

MS KEBISELA: Yes, the same people, but the one was not at the road block is the one who was called the magistrate. We found him there.

MS WILDSCHUT: Okay. So each person had a different role. The one person acted like a magistrate, the other person acted like police persons and so on?

MS KEBISELA: Yes, that is so.

MS WILDSCHUT: I just need to know a little bit more. The man who asked you about your clan names, and who told you about the death of Vuyani and his friend, was that man also amongst the people who arrested you at the road block?

MS KEBISELA: Yes, he was also there.

MS WILDSCHUT: Why do you think that he told you that, why did he first ask you for your clan name and then tell you about the death of Vuyani?

MS KEBISELA: I think his reason was that he was also there and I think he was touched by the fact that he knew this man whom he was Thombakaya's husband, whom he knew from the rural areas.

MS WILDSCHUT: So in a sense he recognised Thombakaya and felt that because he knew - because he knew her he wanted to give you that information and help you?

MS KEBISELA: I think so, yes, that is the reason.

MS WILDSCHUT: Were you very hurt, did you have lots of injuries on your body and did you receive any treatment for that, at the time?

MS KEBISELA: Yes, I did have a mark here where I was pricked by this sharp instrument.

MS WILDSCHUT: Okay. Thank you. I don't have any more questions for Ruth nor Mr Finye. I hand over to the chairperson and maybe my colleagues will ask some questions.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Glenda.

MS WILDSCHUT: It just leaves for me to say to both Ruth and Mr Finye, that you both have told us a very heart-rending story. It was impossible for us to sit here and listen to the story without our hearts bleeding as well, as you told us what had happened to you. Thank you very much for coming and thank you very much for sharing with us what had happened to you then. We hope that in some way this process of telling your story will help to heal a little bit the wounds that you have. Thank you very much.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Glenda. I just forgot one question. You say Pollsmoor was in fact, what was Red Sea?

MS KEBISELA: It is this, Red Sea is the sea. It is a big dam, this Red Sea is a big dam that is in Crossroads.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Finye, and thank you to you, Ruth.

I just want to remind people here that we should try and keep our voices very, very low, because they are also disturbed by the noise. Please let's give respect to all the witnesses.

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