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Human Rights Violation Hearings

Type HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

Starting Date 07 February 1997

Location DUDUZA

Day 2

Names LILLIAN MAMPURA

Case Number JBO2128/01 VOSLOORUS

CHAIRPERSON: Lillian welcome and thanks for coming, before I hand you over to Dr Randera who will assist you with your statement do you want to introduce the person you have brought with you.

MRS MAMPURA: It's my uncle.

CHAIRPERSON: Your uncle, welcome to him as well, I'm going to now hand you over to Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: Lillian good afternoon. It's much cooler now thank goodness for the rain. Can you please stand to take the oath?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: (sworn states)

DR RANDERA: Thank you Lillian. You have come this afternoon to talk about your brother Lucky who was killed in Tokoza in 1993, but you also want to tell us about what happened to you on several occasions as police were looking for Lucky and that you became the victim as a result. Can you take your time and just tell us what happened?

MRS MAMPURA: In May 1992 I was six months expectant and the police arrived at my place during a Wednesday night and they said that they were looking for Lucky. We told them that Lucky was not in the house and they asked us where he had gone to. We stay at my grand mother's place so we told them that Luck had gone to my mother's place. The following day they came back and three black people were driving in a combi and they were members of Khumalo's gang, Bishop Khumalo from Tokoza. The police would come to our place and assault us looking for Lucky and they would tell us that Lucky is a comrade and that Lucky did not want to let other people lead their lives normally. We told them that Lucky was not there and he was quite scared to come back to the grandmother's place because Khumalo would come day in and day out and on this particular day Lucky was coming from Everest and he was walking through Khaki Street in June when I was seven months expectant at the time, when a white car that passed by and they shot him whilst driving by. His friend from Khaki Street took him and brought him to our home and we took him to hospital.

When we asked as to who shot him they did not know the answer and at the time it was discovered that Khumalo's gang had gone to the Natalspruit Hospital to check as to whether Lucky had died or not. He was discharged so that he could run away from the gang. He stayed at home and the police came looking for him once more and my grand mother told them that Lucky is a student and he was getting disturbed by all this rigmarole and was in standard 10 at the time. They kept on looking for him until they got him when he was asleep on this particular night. They asked him what his name was to which he replied Lucky Sibusiso and the said they were looking for Lucky Puna and he said he was Lucky Sibusiso and had dreadlocks on his head before then but he had undone them so they could not identify him. They went to ask what he looked like without dreadlocks and told him that he wore an earring on his left ear and he had been shot on the foot. They came into the house saying that they were looking for a person who had been shot on the foot and we asked them as to how they knew this, and they said that they had been told.

They took Lucky, this particular boer was Joshua and I told them to leave Lucky alone as he was a student and Joshua assaulted me and pushed me aside. They did not want Lucky who was in his pyjamas to get dressed and they took him away by force for about five days to Tokoza Police station where they wanted to enquire as to why he was arrested but the police couldn't give a satisfactory answer, they took him to Vereeneging, they gave him electric shocks and tortured him quite a number of times and when he came back his right toe was very swollen and he could not put on any shoes.

His life had become unstable now because he had to keep on running away. They would come early in the morning, Peter, Matiftif, Jabulani as well as another two men and they would come and kick the doors, break everything and demand to see Lucky. I asked Khumalo whether they were policemen, why were they looking for Lucky. They said they were police also and they were looking for Lucky and we asked what is it that makes them look for Lucky. They said Lucky had gone to Lusaka and he could use a gun so he was a threat to them.

Then on the 30th of July the boers came kicking all the doors of the three back rooms, they broke my mother's back door to search the house, they broke the ceiling in search of Lucky and got into my grand mother's bedroom and stole some money. During that same night they went to my mother's place at Everest where they did the very same thing that they did at my grand mother's place because they kept on saying that Lucky was probably a Sotsi and that is why his home was so beautiful and luxurious probably earning a living as a sotsi. We told them that Lucky a student and was also the president of the SRC but they did not seem to believe that he was a student and Khumalo would come together with the police and the boers not caring what damage they caused there. My younger sister had to run away from home because they were also assaulted during all those raids. I stayed with my grand mother and they kept on coming until December, and it had become a usual occurrence for them to come and assault us and kick down the doors and do all sorts of funny things.

Then on the 3rd of January my child was five months old and as we were still sitting there we heard some gun shots from Nkake Street, I was with my baby and I saw about 15 boers and four black people who got into the house saying they were looking for Lucky and they told me that he had shot seven people at Nkake Street, they assaulted me while I was holding the baby and they kicked me and hit me with the but of a gun. Amongst those boers there were one called Russel, and they continued hitting me with the butts of the guns and slapped me across the face until my feet were swollen. Lucky didn't stay at our house then because he was scared of the boers coming to raid from time to time.

On the 20th of January Lucky was coming back from Everest, his life had become very unstable because he was now afraid of Khumalo and his gang and most of the youngsters had to abandon their homes and seek some cover in order to run away from Khumalo and Lucky came home and said that he wanted to sleep peacefully because he could not sleep. H went away and returned at about two. He used to like jewellery and that day he came and washed his tackies, he took his chains and necklaces and cleaned them and said that he was tired of running around looking for cover and just wanted his life to be back to normal. And he said he wanted to come back home and if they wanted to kill him they would have to do so because they used to tell my grand mother that wherever they find him they would shoot him and kill him.

They went outside with my youngest brother and another friend. As they were standing there he said he wanted to go and see his other friend at the third house my place when a red combi appeared, I do have a photo of it, and inside the combi was Peter who pointed at him and said that this was the man they were looking for.

When Peter pointed at him he tried to run and he ran towards another house No 1616, when he tried to jump the fence the boer shot him and he fell and he was still alive. Another lady tended to him and lifted his head up and asked him what had happened and he said he had been shot. When we tried to get closer all the boers surrounded his body and they said that we should not get closer. Another boy came to take photos and they also shot him. They refused to let us come closer when we said that he was alive and we wanted to take him to hospital and at that time our phone lines were cut off so that we couldn't communicate with the outside world.

We heard over the radio that they had killed a robber and my brother was neither a robber or a thug. He stayed there for about two hours lying there and died when my father approached. When he died they would not allow us to come next to him and did not want us to touch him. He had R500 in his pockets as well as some rings on his fingers and they flatly refused us permission to come closer and take those things from him. We opened up a case later on but nothing ever happened about it. One gentleman told us that you cannot report a policeman to another policeman.

I cried so much ever since that I have been diagnosed as having depression and Lucky left a six month pregnant girl friend who now has a child.

DR RANDERA: Thank you Boyisiwa. If I can just ask a few questions. You have clearly and very explicitly described how the police behaved towards you, your family and this included Lucky of course but I'm a little confused, on the day that Lucky was killed, was he killed by the police or was he killed by the Khumalo Gang?

MRS MAMPURA: Lucky was shot by a boer but in the combi there was Khumalo's body guard. The boers didn't know Lucky and the boer who shot Lucky did not know him but he was pointed out by Peter who was inside the combi, because they were together at school with Peter. And the other boers were not stationed at the police station, they were staying at Khumalo's place. At the time that he was lying on ground another boer by the name of Wessels came to shake their hands well done.

MRS MAMPURA: So what you are saying is that there was a combi and there were police officers, what you refer to as the boers, in that vehicle but also included were these two people that you refer to as the body guards to Khumalo, is that what you're telling me?

MRS MAMPURA: That is correct.

DR RANDERA: And they pointed your brother out and then the police shot him without any warning?

MRS MAMPURA: NO they never fired any warning shot, they just aimed at him and they shot him from the back and their bullet went through his forehead.

MRS MAMPURA: But you said your brother was running away?

MRS MAMPURA: Yes at that point he was trying to run away.

DR RANDERA: You say he was running away because he saw these people in this vehicle.

MRS MAMPURA: Yes I think it's because he saw the boers because they used to come looking for him, so he knew that they were coming to look for him now, and the people who were standing with him are the ones who later told us that there was Peter inside the combi and Peter was always with Matiftif and Khumalo.

DR RANDERA: Now over the last few days, and I'm aware that we've just started listening to stories about Tokoza, we've heard about the police and we've heard about the Internal Stability Unit, we've heard about the self defence units, we've heard about hostel dwellers and the IFP, but this is the first time we're hearing about the Khumalo Gang, can you please tell us a little more about it?

MRS MAMPURA: We knew Khumalo as a Zionist Church reverend. As to how he got involved with the police we do not know, but the first time we heard of him was that Khumalo was looking for Mugabe because Mugabe had raped Khumalo's daughter, and as time went on we heard that Khumalo wanted to be supported by the students in order to look for Mugabe who had earlier assaulted his daughter. And at that time Lucky was the SRC president and he wanted to call Lucky in order to mobilise other students and Khumalo told Lucky that they were going to the police if we want to look for Mugabe. Lucky asked him as to why he wanted to involve the police in looking for Mugabe, then Lucky refused and said that he was not going to help Khumalo in that manner, and ever since then it seems as if Lucky and Khumalo became enemies. That's when police started looking for Lucky and branding him a criminal as well as a terrorist who had gone to Lusaka.

DR RANDERA: The Reverend Khumalo, Mr Khumalo, lived in Tokoza as well?

MRS MAMPURA: Yes he stayed at Mtagani Section in Tokoza.

DR RANDERA: And the Mugabe you are refer to, he was a young comrade in the area?

MRS MAMPURA: Mugabe was just a common thug, just a common criminal who used to murder people.

DR RANDERA: Buyisewe you were there in the house when the policeman shot your brother.

MRS MAMPURA: Yes I was present. At the time that they shot him my younger brother is the one who directly saw the whole thing taking place. When we heard the gunshot it's only then that we went outside and we saw those combis, and when we ran towards my brother we found that he was still moving, he was still alive and that's when the boers closed in on us telling us not to come close to his body.

DR RANDERA: And your younger brother, has he made a statement to this effect?

MRS MAMPURA: No he hasn't.

DR RANDERA: We'll be able to get a statement from him will we?

MRS MAMPURA: I don't know whether he will be willing to make the statement.

DR RANDERA: But he told you everything, you didn't see everything as you've told us?

MRS MAMPURA: Yes he's the one who related the story to us.

DR RANDERA: Then there's Nhlanlha Zondi, who you say took photographs at the time and he died a year later, or did he die on the same day?

MRS MAMPURA: Nhlanlha took the photos on the 20th of that month then he died on the 24th of that same month. That is even before we buried Lucky. And according to the story we heard was that Nlhanlha was with Sam and the very same combis, that is Khumalo's Gang's combis were travelling through Skonyela Street and that is where he was shot.

DR RANDERA: And you say that Nlhanlha's parents actually have the photographs still is that right?

MRS MAMPURA: Yes they brought the photos yesterday. I have them.

DR RANDERA: You have them? Will you be able to give them to us so that we can make copies and then give you back the originals?

MRS MAMPURA: Yes I will. Even the cassettes of the funeral, because from the 23rd the boers used to come to our place, they would disturb the people who were trying to conduct a night vigil as well as the people who had come to pay their condolences. There is another gentleman who said that I should not mention his name, he also had a video camera, we do have the cassettes.

DR RANDERA: Thank you. On one of the occasions when the police came to your house, you said earlier on they said that Lucky was dangerous because he went to Lusaka. So had he left the country?

MRS MAMPURA: Lucky had never left the country.

DR RANDERA: So that was just an accusation that they made?

MRS MAMPURA: Yes it was just a bare accusation.

DR RANDERA: And my last two questions, how old was Lucky when he died?

MRS MAMPURA: He was 20 years old.

DR RANDERA: Now you say in your statement that Lucky died or he was killed because he was a COSAS member but also somewhere else in the statement you mention that he was an active ANC member.

MRS MAMPURA: That is true. He was an active member of the ANC as from 1989. At secondary school he was a member of COSAS, then when he proceeded with his education he became...(intervention)

DR RANDERA: And I'm sure you'd agree that the conflict at that time in 1993, 1992 was more between the ANC and other groupings. Was he a member of the self defence unit?

MRS MAMPURA: Yes that is correct.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

MS SEROKI: Is Bishop Khumalo still alive and is he still staying at the very same place.

MRS MAMPURA: Yes he is still staying there, he's still alive and I think he's at Penduka but I'm not very sure because some of the people were evicted from their houses and they ran to where we were because we are at Ntansimbi, we used to see them before because we used to see his son, Matiftif.

MS SEROKI: What about Peter, is he still alive?

MRS MAMPURA: Yes he's still alive and we do see him when it's time for pensions, that is old age pensions because we would like to get in touch with him, he's known by Khumalo.

MS SEROKI: Do you know where Khumalo is?

MRS MAMPURA: They all stay at Penduka. He is staying at Ndagane Street.

CHAIRPERSON: If I could just ask you a few questions just to be absolutely clear on some of the statements that you have just made now. You speak about Reverend Khumalo and his gang coming to your house. Now these are things that happened in your presence? You were at home when Khumalo came?

MRS MAMPURA: Yes that is true, I was always at home because I had a small baby. The others were running away because the police were harassing them.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was Khumalo himself who came, not just people who were associated with him?

MRS MAMPURA: Yes that is true, he used to come personally together with his people. It would be himself, at times it would be Peter or another relative of theirs, I don't know what his name is.

CHAIRPERSON: And the two other people whom you mentioned, Joshua and Russel, do you have any knowledge of their whereabouts? Are they still in the township?

MRS MAMPURA: They were boers, I don't know where they stayed. I only saw them by their name tags because the other one, when I tried to read the name tag, he hid it with his hand. They were always driving in a combi or a casper.

CHAIRPERSON: Lillian thank you very much for coming to make this statement. One of the tasks, a very important task of the Truth Commission is to make findings as to whether people are victims of gross human rights violations or not, and one of the things we do do, is when we try to establish the truthfulness in their statements, is anybody in their statement as a perpetrator, they mention a name or if they mention an organisation or an institution. Before we can actually make a finding we are obliged those people and to ask them to comment on the charges or the allegations which have been made against them that they have to be given an opportunity to present their side of the story. so we will certainly be making every effort to contact the people who you mention in your statement, in particular Bishop Khumalo, and we will present to him the allegations which

have been made against him and we will ask him to indicate what his views are, his side of these events and we will certainly be in contact with you. One of the more important jobs which the Human Rights Violations Committee in particular does which is to say to those who are named as alleged perpetrators, do you have anything to say, do you contradict this statement, how do you respond to these charges? So we certainly will be following that up and we will keep in contact with you. Thank you for coming.

And we also...(next tape)...as perpetrators that they will be given every opportunity to answer allegations. At this point in the life of the Commission these are allegations, they still have to be tested and people have to be given an opportunity to present their sides, so I want to make an appeal to anybody who is named as an alleged perpetrator not to take the law into his or her own hands, that an opportunity will be given to those people to clear their names if they think they've been wrongfully accused or to answer specific charges or allegations made against them, so that's an appeal to people who have been named. They will get their chance. Thank you.

 
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