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Human Rights Violation Hearings

Type 1 T JORDAN, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

Starting Date 18 April 1996

Location EAST LONDON

Day 4

Names JOE THETHINENE JORDAN

DR BORAINE: Mr Chairperson I have one comment to make and one request to ask from yourself. First I would like to express all of our appreciation to Ms Tiny Maya who has been ill for two days and despite that with remarkable efficiency and skill has helped the Commission enormously in its task and I would like to just pay that tribute to her.

Secondly, Mr Chairperson I'd like your permission not to adjourn at this time. We only have one last witness to hear and I want to propose that we continue and have tea at the conclusion.

REVEREND TUTU: I think that is very sensible coming from a Methodist, yes.

DR BORAINE: With your permission Mr Chairperson I invite Joe Thethinene Jordan to come to the stand. Good afternoon Mr Jordan.

MR JORDAN: Good afternoon.

DR BORAINE: You are making a little bit of history by being the last witness we are hearing in the historic opening hearings in the Eastern Cape of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and we welcome you.

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: (sworn states)

DR BORAINE: Mr Jordan I am not going to talk about your present office, but I am going to say that it's in very strong contradiction and very different from the time when

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you suffered a great deal for your political beliefs. You were harassed and assaulted and tortured continuously and it's a remarkable thing that you are alive to tell the story and we are delighted and we are very pleased that you are here and Mr Ntsiki Sandi is going to lead you as you tell your story. Thank you very much.

MR JORDAN: Thank you.

MR SANDI: Thank you very much. Mr Jordan when we were talking you said your history is a long one. If you could talk especially about the statement that you have given to us, is that so?

MR JORDAN: Yes it is so.

MR SANDI: Mr Jordan you stay here at East London?

MR JORDAN: Yes it is so.

MR SANDI: How long have you been here?

MR JORDAN: It is over 20 years.

MR SANDI: What are you doing presently?

MR JORDAN: I am a member of the legislature in Bisho Eastern Cape Province.

MR SANDI: I am certain that there was no reason for you to ask for permission to be here because you share the Parliament.

MR JORDAN: Yes it is so.

MR SANDI: I can see that even the speaker of the Parliament Linda is also here.

MR JORDAN: Yes it is.

MR SANDI: There in the legislature is there a committee?

MR JORDAN: Yes it is local government Chairperson. I am also in the Agricultural Standing Committee.

MR SANDI: The evidence that you are going to give us today, as I understand it, it is in connection with on the

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2nd of September 1985 when you were arrested. Can you tell us what happened during the day when you were arrested?

MR JORDAN: When I went to summarise this long story of that day because I said we can take three hours giving the history if I have to give details, but presently I would just like to state that on this second day of August the time was after one. I was from home. I was staying at Pembelele at the time. I was going to the garage to take the car which was at service. Coming back from there my friend Vuyisile Mabeka joined me, he was staying at Tsolo at the time. He was also going to town so I gave him a lift. On our way when we were joining the highway we discovered that there are police, there were soldiers, forces in camouflage uniform, when we got there along the road there was the other one who came to me and was followed by two others. When he came nearer to me he said here is this one who drives the green Cortina who is the one who takes the people and transports them.

MR SANDI: What problem was he referring to at Duncan Village?

MR JORDAN: At that time it was not stable. The conditions were not stable. It was riots.

MR SANDI: Is that the time when the massacre at Duncan Village took place?

MR JORDAN: I think the previous day it was a mass funeral for the people who were killed at Duncan Village. Well I asked him which car. He accused me, he said keep quiet you know the car, even yesterday you were driving that car to fetch Suwisa and you transported Steve Tshwete as well.

Well I wanted to - I didn't want to show him that I have information. I was forced to talk to them because of

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the firearms they were having. I was assaulted on that day, and I was made to lie on my stomach very close to the Hippo, joining others who were already arrested.

MR SANDI: Now among the people who you transported as the soldiers arrested you, you said Mr Steve Tshwete was also there, is he the Minister of Sport today?

MR JORDAN: Yes.

MR SANDI: Did you transport him as well to the funeral?

MR JORDAN: Yes I fetched him from Mdantsane to go to the funeral. Because of the bad conditions we had to change cars because mine was already known.

MR SANDI: Well after having been arrested for transportation of people ...(intervention)

MR JORDAN: Yes I was arrested to transport Mr Steve Tshwete and other people, especially the people whom I used to transport to the hospital when they were shot.

MR SANDI: What happened after you had been made to lie down on your stomachs?

MR JORDAN: Three police vans came and we were all put in and we were sent to Duncan Village Police station. That is where a guard of honour was already in order. They had sjamboks and every kind of weapon assaulting us.

MR SANDI: Can I take you back a little while. You said you were made to lie on the floor on your stomachs, how did you feel when you were made to lie on the floor?

MR JORDAN: It's not a very nice thing to be instructed to lie on your stomach by another man. You know the onlookers were there having a look.

MR SANDI: And from there you were taken to a police station?

MR JORDAN: Yes.

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MR SANDI: Which police station?

MR JORDAN: It was Duncan Village police station. We were welcomed by sjamboks and everything that they were using to hit us, but when we entered into the rooms three of them were first - they were put right at the corner and they were boxed, they were assaulted. They were asked where did they meet me. They said no he arrived as we were already at the proceeding, we didn't even see him. At that time Captain van Wyk arrived.

MR SANDI: What did they use to assault you?

MR JORDAN: It was the gun pipes and the sjamboks.

MR SANDI: Were they beating you all over the body?

MR JORDAN: It's not very easy if you hit a man and then he jumps over the fence but you know there was blood.

MR SANDI: You said van Wyk arrived, what happened then?

MR JORDAN: Well I was put aside, my turn was also coming. Van Wyk came in, he was from Cambridge, he was together with Mahlewu(?) and Radie, they were three in number. Van Wyk was wearing shorts, wearing a vest with a towel, wearing takkies as if he was from a gym. He entered and he saw me, he said Joe, today I've got you. He instructed the police that were there, he said don't touch that one, you cannot touch him he's an executive you don't have right to touch him.

MR SANDI: You say Van Wyk, Radie and Mahlewu arrived, are they the three policemen?

MR JORDAN: Yes.

MR SANDI: Were they the security?

MR JORDAN: Yes they were the security.

MR SANDI: Where is Mahlewuas we are talking now?

MR JORDAN: He passed away.

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MR SANDI: What killed him?

MR JORDAN: No I don't know, he just died, I don't know what killed him really.

MR SANDI: You said they were instructed to put you aside then they will deal with you in a separate case? The Commission is listening Mr Jordan you can carry on.

MR JORDAN: Statements were taken from all of them, I was the last. When it was my turn they said we don't know whether to take a statement from you because we were told that there are people who can be in a very good position to handle me. Well we were taken with others, we were put into the cell without any statement having been taken. You know I wasn't told why was I charged. No fingerprints were taken. I only was taken to a prison cell.

MR SANDI: The statement says there is a special man who has to deal with you, did you understand what that meant?

MR JORDAN: No I only knew when I met those guys that I was told they would attend to me.

MR SANDI: You said you were put aside?

MR JORDAN: Yes I was together with other people who I found there and we were put into the cell.

MR SANDI: What happened in the afternoon after eight o'clock?

MR JORDAN: The first one was called in. It was the police who called him, he was wearing a uniform. He was together with a Black man who was wearing private clothes. They stepped in. They called the first one by his name and he answered, and they said we should follow.

It wasn't long after we have left with him we heard a cry from the offices close to the cells that we were in. This cry carried on for 30 to 35 minutes. As I was worried

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the second one was now being called. The second one was called, the second thing happened, I think it was Zola. The first one I can't remember. It was Zola Mtensilana the second one. He took what was awaiting him as well. After 25 minutes the screaming went off. Then the second - the screaming was so loud, but after some time it went down.

MR SANDI: Do you think the screaming was from a person who has been beaten?

MR JORDAN: No it doesn't seem as if he was beaten, he was actually being beaten. No he couldn't be audible because he was next door and what we could only hear it was the scream because one can hear that clearly from a prison cell. I was the third one to be called in. This policeman first entered and I was to follow him. My name was called and I stood up. They asked me why don't you shout, why don't you scream when we call your name. They said you have to say "Thank you Mkosi", and I said no I don't have any chief here in the cells. They said oh well you will follow us.

Well I went on after them, entering the door. There was a white chief standing there. He was wearing boots. He was wearing khaki shorts from the railway. He had a butt. He was having a mop in his hands as if he was mopping the blood on the floor. Everything was being mopped to the door and they said stop here so that we can finish. Well they finished mopping the floor and I was told to enter the room. While I was in the room this policeman in uniform never entered the room but the private one came in. There was another one who was mopping the floor and the other one was sitting around the table and the other one was opposite. He was wearing a sweat band normally worn by rugby players. He had a beer in his hands. He was drinking, sitting around

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the table. When I entered the room he said to me - and I said to him I am fine. He said are you alright? I said yes. He said can you now take off the clothes that you are wearing. I looked at the condition and I said to resist here is going to be a problem, can I just take my clothes off. Well I took off my clothes and I was only left in my underwear. The one drinking beer said to me come and - if you go to bed with your girlfriend do you leave underwear on. He went on to say I say to you if you go to bed with your girlfriend do you leave underwear on your person. I said no. He said can you now take your underwear off. Oh well I took it off.

There was a bench at the corner. This bench had handcuffs that were hanging and something like ropes and belts. There are electric cables there and something that looked like a battery charger. It was at the corner. It was connected to that cable. They said to me I must lie. I said well let me go and lie. Lying down they used bandages at the wrists and at the feet, at the ankles and they said we are now giving your girlfriend. They said can you please squat. Oh well I squatted. Now my feet were taken underneath the bench, I was handcuffed at the ankles on top of those bandages and these belts were taken, I was fastened onto this bench, the whole body, the only thing left was the head. It was up to the shoulders. After that the guy with a can in his hand stood up and he said to me do you know me? I said no I don't. He said don't you want to know me? I said, no. He said I am Dr Labuschagne. Now the reason I am here is to come and to help you. I want to treat you about this communism disease you have.

Sergeant Malunga said - well they took something from

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the button and he said can you check that whether it is working. The other one took it and came towards my direction and they said switch it on. It was switched on right at that thing that I referred to as a battery charger. They said can you please test it, we want to see whether it works. While he was coming straight to me the other man stood up. There was water in the bucket. Just before they could start with the button on me they said wait we should first apply water and test whether it's working. Well they poured me with water then they put the button on me. You could understand yourself, imagine electric on water.

He said there are two things that we are supposed to have done, seeing that you are a very stubborn person and you are not prepared to come and speak the truth it's either you speak the truth or either you give us the whole information about the questions that we ask you. I said you can carry on, ask me questions, ask me what you want to know. You said before I asked you, you said from school you were together with your teacher, you said he was teaching politics. I said no, he is Rine Mapisa. I said no I don't know but I am used to him. He said he taught you these politics. You know he was making a joke and he said that person is now epileptic. I think you are going to end up there as well.

Well I kept quiet. You know I was really waiting for the question, the real question. He said yesterday Mugabela sent you to - he said to you go, I am giving you an order to go to Zipuzana, you were supposed to have started at eight. Nine has already past and now where is Steve? He talked everything that he knew and I said yes that is right. He mentioned that to me. He asked whether I went to fetch

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Steve, I said yes. He asked me where did I fetch him. I told him that I fetched him from the office at the highway. They asked with whom was he, and then I stated that it was Geoff Siwisa and Tangana. Did you bring them here? I said, yes. He asked why didn't you come together with them there through the gate? I said no I reported that I changed them to another car because I knew that you know this car that I am driving, so we had to change cars. So they were in front of me so I was just following behind. So it was clear that they had gone past. So I was told that that was my first offence to make them run away.

Secondly I was asked to tell after the mass funeral and everything that he was investigating people because everybody was being instigated by him, would like to know where Steve Tshwete was because he was a great instigator. I told them that the commander said to me I must go and fetch him, so I do not know who gave him the information that he should go elsewhere. So that is where that problem started. All hell broke loose and they said they can see that I am resisting to tell the truth. They said they are going to say everything and they said they are going to do everything at their best.

There was a bucket next to the bench. There was a small plastic which is like a car tube of the tyre, but it's tinier than that one. It was taken off from this water and then it was put on my head. This person checked my tongue, removed the plastic again and asked me why do I take my tongue outside. He asked me if I want to stop breathing. He also tested my teeth and asked me why don't I have canine teeth. I was unable to state but I just told him that my teeth decayed. He said to me so you are the one who uses

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grenades because the handgrenades destroy the teeth. They took again the plastic and put it over my head. You can imagine that how can you breathe if you have a plastic over your head. The water was then thrown over my body and they connected these and I was electrocuted. The weights were on the bench were so strong and heavy that you were unable to do anything even if you have a heavy weight you had to stay stable in the bench. I tried to struggle but I was unable to do anything about this. The electrocution continued for a long time. I was screaming all the time and I realised that I was losing consciousness.

The man who was there drinking beer, if I can estimate his weight he was between 80 and 90 kilograms. He stood on my body with his boots and jumped over my body. He jumped, he's the person who injured me greatly. He was jumping up and down over my back. I think it was about three occasions. I felt that even if the weights were holding me I could feel that something was going wrong. They asked me if I want to tell the truth, I said I do not know Steve Tshwete. I do not know where he went after he left these grounds. You may go to Mgabela and find out from him what happened to Steve but you won't get any further truth from me, this is the truth that I know. They said okay let us untie you so that we can plead with you, so that you can give us the information that we want.

It was very difficult for me to sit on the bench. I sat on the floor. They took me again to the table on which they were having beer. There was a small blanket, brown blanket, now I could feel that my body was giving way. They took a briefcase and it was put next to the bench. I was told to open it and I refused.

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MR SANDI: Can I just disturb you. During all this period who was the person who was available, is it Dr Labuschagne who was doing this?

MR JORDAN: Yes.

MR SANDI: Who is the other one?

MR JORDAN: Yes it was Dr Labuschagne, and the other one was a Black person and the third one I do not know him.

MR SANDI: Thank you.

MR JORDAN: But Labuschagne, Sergeant Nefling, something like that, he was at court, but Labuschagne didn't appear in court. They pleaded with me to open the briefcase again and I still refused because I didn't know whose briefcase was this and I didn't know what was inside it. They pleaded with me for a long time, and said as I am giving problems they told me that this is the estate. I said even if it is an estate you are the people who know about this estate and I am not interested in it.

One man opened it, and the minute he opened it he said to me, there were bundles and bundles of R50,00 notes, and they said if you tell us where Steve is we buy you a car, you buy you a car and a house and we give you all this money, if only you can tell us where Steve Tshwete is, we want him. You just involve yourself in something, we don't want you, we want Steve Tshwete. I said you can take your money. What I said before I told you that I do not know him. They dragged me with my feet and they fastened me again. Dr Labuschagne jumped again. He said he is treating me and he told me that I am Dr Labuschagne, I am here to treat you. They continued with the electrocution. Even in my genitals they did this. They did all that they can do, even through my anus they did this. They electrocuted me

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through every hole that they could find in my body. And on my head there was this tube, I was suffocated, I couldn't cry, I couldn't do anything.

At the end they removed the tube. They took a stick and somebody fetched a stick, they brought it along. I was beaten on the sole of my feet because my feet were just hanging. I could not count how many times I was beaten until I was numb. They were just carrying on and I didn't feel anything at the time.

They came back again and took these charges. They electrocuted me again. I do not know what ended. The only thing that I can remember is that I passed out and I was revived in the cells. My belongings were just next to me. There was my next door neighbour who was also staying in the same vicinity where I stayed, I was shocked again to feel somebody kicking me on the ribs. When I turned my head I was told to stand up. When I was standing up I could see that it's only the head that could, the arms, all my limbs were unable to move. There was some pain on the spine and I couldn't move.

Major de Villiers was the one who was also, he was the one who was kicking me. He was a major at Fleet Street and the Duncan Village Police station you know it was at Fleet Street at that day. Major de Villiers said I must stand up. I told him that ...(tape ends) ... the police station, I was dragged along. Imagine, I was naked. I was dragged along. You know it was not the lawn, starting from the stairs I was dragged along. It was only the arms now which had regained the strength. When I was just before the police station there was one man, Mr Ngwane who was the owner of the garage. He was moving out of the police

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station, when he saw me he was shocked and he even put his hand on the mouth. I was unable to get into the police station because the steps were very high. They kicked me and they couldn't do anything because I was really unable to move. So they picked me up, put me in one of the cells. The bandits were there were taken and were ordered to dress me up. The bandits would not consider the condition in which I was. They didn't even think and consider what I was suffering from. They were not aware that my back was injured. They dragged me along and put clothes on me. Whilst they were dressing me I was told that there was a statement that I was supposed to give.

I was asked what had happened. I said the only thing that I can say is that ask from the commanders of this police station, the only thing that I can say is that I was arrested in a certain point and then I was brought in here. That is all that I could say to them. I refused to give them the information of what happened in the cells and I said that one, I will give as evidence at court. Then after that they took the fingerprints. As they didn't take fingerprints before it was the first time that they were taking these fingerprints.

We were told that we would be taken to court. When we got there we were alighting from this, Zola was the one who was transporting me. There were three others. When we were going to underground at the cells there were policemen. Mostly it was the Black policemen and most of them I didn't know.

MR SANDI: Are there any lawyers who went to the cells?

MR JORDAN: No, no, there was nobody who came to visit me at the time. Zola is the person who was carrying me because EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE

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I was unable to walk. Zola was in front and the others were at the back. When he was carrying me the arm was removed. After that I was dropped down and then the others ran away. At this stage a doctor came in and he came to take me. They said they are going to test my blood pressure and give me treatment. The doctor said the condition of the person is beyond attention of this prison so I was supposed to get medical treatment. Then we went to the magistrate's court later on. There was a blanket, I had to lie on the ground because I was paralysed.

During the time when we were giving evidence the magistrate was unable to see me because I was on the floor. He asked who is the fourteenth man, and then I was pointed. He asked what was happening. I explained what happened and then the case was postponed. There were children who are less than 15 years old who were assaulted so he said those two boys and myself should be sent to the doctor otherwise we should be taken to the hospital otherwise we are not supposed to go back to the cells, together with the one whose arm was broken. We were packed into the van and we were taken to the cells and not to the hospital. The problem that I was having is that I was unable to urinate. That was very painful. I know I was feeling pain all over the body but that one was crucial.

The lawyers came and they came when I was at court and it was said I was sent to the hospital. The lawyers came again after quarter past five the same day when I was from court and I was taken to the lawyers and I gave my statement, then they said they want me to be taken to the hospital. I was not taken to hospital. They agreed that they will but they never did until the following day the

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lawyers came again on a Wednesday and ordered them. Again they said they will take me to the hospital. At the end they took me to hospital.

There was also a conflict there because the doctor said I must be admitted, then it was said I should be admitted to the hospital. When I was at casualty Major de Villiers at Fleet Street, he pulled the trolley and asked where am I going to. He was told that no I was being admitted. He said no this is my prisoner, and the doctor said this is my patient, so there was an argument, a strong argument, and the lawyers said this side, this is my client and everybody was claiming me. The doctor saying my patient, the police said my prisoner and the lawyers saying my client until the lawyer arrived and he had to take the responsibility he intervened and hit De Villiers with his elbow and then he was moved back. Immediately I was rushed through the ward and I couldn't go to the casualty because of the chaos which was taking place. One of the policemen was instructed here to, I've forgotten the others, and then they instructed them to prevent this and then I was admitted. I was hospitalised for months. I received care and everybody was trying to do his best to restore my health to its normal position. But I can remember that I stayed about nine months. I was discharged from hospital.

Before I was discharged the doctor came and said the police at Cambridge said the doctor should phone them when I am being discharged, so I was supposed to be discharged, to go earlier before the day in which I was supposed to be discharged to protect me from the brutality.

Naude came also before I was discharged. I was still in bed when I thought that I should escape from hospital.

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When he came here he spoke Xhosa. He took the glass and was drinking some water and said to me, he rubbed me and said, no you are not thin as we expected and he took the glass and threw me with water and everybody who was in the ward was shocked. So when I discovered that I was still wanted by these people I decided to escape from hospital before the day which I was supposed to be discharged.

I realised that the youth which was arrested and also brought to hospital they were also still here and they could not be discharged before I could attend the case. I had to go to court because some of the children who were still detained could not be released before I can give evidence so I had to go for their sake. When I went there I was still on crutches and when I went to court I was detained again and I went to Westbank. I stayed there. It was difficult for me. During all this period, about three years from '86 to 1989, March, I was in detention. I got a visit only once, nobody was allowed to visit me. I was always in the single cells because I was regarded as poisonous.

When I complained about the fact that I was not receiving enough treatment, medical treatment, Captain Hageman(?) came in. I was from Kimberley at the time because at some stage I was referred to Kimberley, but later on I was transferred to Frere Hospital. From there Radie and Naude took me and then they said no your mother is working here at Frere Hospital so we are taking you from here because your mother is looking after you, so let us take you to another hospital which is at the prison. I went to Westbank and the following day, I think it was 4 a.m. I was taken again and transported at the back so the chairs were removed from this combi at the back, so there were

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mattresses there and I was sitting on them. I was unable to walk so I had to lie on these mattresses. We went to Kimberley and I was detained in the single cells. I think I stayed for about seven to nine months in the single cell, then I was supposed to come.

The other thing that affected me, which made me very bitter and resentful is.....

MR SANDI: Can I ask, is that the SAD Hospital in Kimberley?

MR JORDAN: No it was jail, it was just a sarcasm that I was being taken to hospital. Then I was detained here in this Kimberley. When I was complaining for medical treatment I would be taken to the prison's hospital and then I was told that they were saying they were going to order the prisoners to slash my face with razor blades.

Naude came during this period, Mala was also together with him. They took me in 1987, between 1987 and 1988, I think it was during the time when there was (...indistinct). We came back on that road. In this Sierra the people were entertaining themselves. There was a rifle here with three magazines. The first thing that came to my mind was that I am going to be assaulted, so I wanted to grab one of them and take one of the rifles but I realised that this might be the trap because maybe they wanted me to take these so that they can assault me. We overtook two buses on our way. There were people on the road. During their discussion because it was another police car which was here all the policemen who were there went out next to the car. I was taken out. I was a little bit better now and my back I think you can see my back is bent now it is the consequences of the assault. When we were there along the road beers and some meat was taken out. Naude asked me do I know the taste EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE

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of the beer. I said no. He said do I remember, he asked me if I remember what this reminds me of. I said no. The only thing that they were doing they were torturing me, harassing me, pointing fingers at me. The dumpies were then taken and they would take the R5 and shoot at these bottles. They will always do this and take the bottle, put it on the boot and then they would shoot it as a target, and when they shoot it as a target, this bottle, they would make it the bullets would pass next to my head. I kept quiet because I was asking myself what was their intention of doing this. They tried to give me the meat but I refused. They forced me, they said I am going to eat the meat. I said I won't. I asked them when they said they were taking me along did they want to give me meat. So they had already taken their share and I told them that they should have called me to be part of them so that I can take part in this braai. The others said to me we have just removed the rubble which was done by your friends.

We travelled again along, and then we went straight to East London. They were under the influence of alcohol at the time. I think the car was driven at a speed of 200 kilometres per hour. When we were next to Grahamstown we were at the curve and we nearly missed the corner but in the end we arrived at our destination in East London and it was during the night.

Hageman was brought along and they were told that this person is the most dangerous, and they were also told that if they are taken to a communal cell they should make sure that there should be somebody to monitor his movements because we know how influential he is. I knew Hageman from Kimberley Prison and that he was going - we knew each other

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very well, and I think that he was informed already about the fact that I was coming also.

On the second week I requested that I should be given medical treatment. Hageman told me that you will never get any treatment, you must wait for your death. He went away and went to (...indistinct). He looked at my (...indistinct) and asked what is the problem with your (...indistinct) because it looks like a pigsty and he aliked me to a pig and I retaliated by saying the same thing about him. It was said that I was supposed to go to the hospital again. I went to Fort Glamorgan which is a prison. Hageman was already there and Sergeant Kitchen and some few policemen. There was a major or a captain. The captain said to me, and the cells are very dark here, the people who were witnessing during the Songelwe case know what I am talking about, I was informed that I was going to get lectures on the area in which I am going to stay. I was told that from cell no.1 to cell no.40 something I was told all the people who were imprisoned, Qosa Miliqweta, all the activists that I know of, I was told about Joe Mati and all others, Mapetla was also mentioned, and I was told that people who were detained in these cells seldom survive either mentally or physically. I was advised to behave myself so that I can survive. It was about 30 minutes for each cell I was given the history, and then I was told that the cell in which I was detained it was occupied by Mgabele because they said our minds were alike. So I could remember that there is a link between Mgabele and the jail because they asked me about him previously.

It was on a Thursday when I first came here. During the day when Songelwe was here knocking at the door saying

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that he is asthmatic, they were kicking the doors trying to ask for help, I was next to that cell because they were at the communal cell. All these efforts which were done to save the life of Msongelwe nobody, the policemen were around, but no one took heed of his cries. The policemen were always peeping through. They knew that there was somebody who was in trouble but they didn't do anything to save his life.

MR SANDI: Without going any further, except that you have anything to say ...(intervention)

MR JORDAN: I thought you were carrying on.

MR SANDI: Mr Jordan there is nothing that I can ask, I may give the Commission a chance.

MR JORDAN: Well this case took place. I was really shocked, I was amazed at my assault. The police on their report they said I was at C section and I was already beaten up. But in this all misery they lost the case. All of them really lost the case and I was given a chance to lodge a civil claim. That civil claim has its own story. I don't really want to explain it here because it's already in my statement. Even this day I haven't received my civil claim. I don't want to get into that point because our own comrades who are lawyers really deceived us.

The problems that I have in all these things in December I didn't work for about 11 days because I have a problem with my back and I went to have X-rays. They told me that in the results they received before with the problem L1, L2 and L3 this is the locality on my back, that is where the cartilage was damaged between the bones. The lumbar region 4 was the most severely injured. They said to me as time goes on this is going to be very dangerous. They said

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I will need very strong medical treatment. I am saying I am very lucky because I am working at this moment. I can afford treatment. But in future or even now I cannot drive more than 300 kilometres, I have to get someone to assist me. Every time I travel I have to get somebody. If I want to be active in that meeting somebody must drive me so that I can be comfortable up to a place where the meeting would take place. I cannot even take 30 minutes standing on my feet to address the people. I am really concerned about the medical treatment that I will receive in future because I am catching up with the age. I doubt that if I am 45 I will still be in this conditions. In the whole torture that I received one of the problems that I encountered there is a problem with my stomach. I cannot use even one single purgative that has phenolthalein drug because the minute I use that my tongue comes out of the mouth. These are some of the problems that I don't know how are they going to handle me in the future. Then I have the kids to take care of their future.

The last thing maybe the Truth Commission has maybe an indication, the men have appeared, I don't know one of them, maybe the Truth Commission has an idea or it has a wish is there maybe a plan to rehabilitate them or whatever? Well that is something I want to have part, I want to get rehabilitation that will be conducted on those guys. I want this thing between me and him. I want to know the problem between me and him. Most of my colleagues, most of the people van Wyk was also involved, those people are mentally disturbed, they have brain haemorrhages and I have a problem with my head, and we heard that van Wyk is still a major even now. I would like to talk to him. If there is any

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possibility of them repenting I want to be part of that process. It's then that I think I will be in a position to reconcile through the bitterness..... I am not going to talk about what happened to my family who couldn't see me for a period of over three years. ....they will never until the apply from the minister. Who was Vlok to give permission to a person. I got only 40 minutes in three years to see my family.

REVEREND TUTU: Thank you very much.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Minister I maintain that for the period that you have been under all that treatment you would have welcomed the presence of your church, chaplain or your church minister.

MR JORDAN: That's right.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Certainly I would have loved to know who led evidence against you which led to your conviction for the five years' suspended sentence. Were these your friends, your comrades?

MR JORDAN: There is not one amongst my comrades who gave evidence about this. They were fortunate it was fortunate for them that I got the order. There were many people in the stadium and I think we were not careful enough. Some of the spies managed to get information through talking to their friends.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Couldn't your defence make use of your hospital records, records from the doctors to use them in your case, in your defence? Were they available in short, that is what I want to know?

MR JORDAN: Let me answer you and say if you talk about the records when it comes to information about medical files at that particular time the man who was employed to look after

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our files while we were in hospital one of the doctors in Frere who examined me and the following day he said he didn't examine me, and unfortunately every time some of my files after we have noticed that (no interpretation).... it was being confronted that he has committed some crimes he denied that. That Frere Hospital where one of the security forces, his brother or his cousin was a Superintendent at the hospital, the information was linking every time.

REVEREND TUTU: Mr Jordan your story is very painful. We know that during the struggle there are always casualties. We are very thankful and grateful that you could come here and ...(tape ends) ... be able to meet those you say you would like to see. Thank you very much. Thank you Mrs Jordan for coming.

We have reached the end of our hearing session. I want first of all to pay tribute or perhaps to thank the Premier, the government and the people of the Eastern Province for their welcome. The Mayor, the Council and the people of East London for - could you please be quiet. We want to thank the churches and all who were involved in Sunday's service and members of the different faith communities for supporting us with their prayers. We thank those who have been catering for us. Thank you to the police for providing security here, and the traffic police. It's unusual for us to have been led by flashing lights. In the past when you were in South Africa and you heard flashing police lights you knew you were in trouble. We thank all those who have been able to be interpreters. Thank you to the Media, members of the Media, electronic and print Media for helping to tell the world the stories that you have heard here.

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Thank you too to Commissioner Finca and all of his staff for the very, very hard work that they put in which has made this first historic hearing go as smoothly as it has done. Thank you also to all the Commissioners and members of the various committees who have been part of the proceedings on different days. Thank you to Tiny and Dumisa and Ntsiki for leading evidence. Thank you too to the Briefers who have been wonderful in giving support to those who were witnesses. But perhaps we want to say a very big thank you especially to the witnesses, their families and friends and although I have not allowed this to happen before I would say that I am going to break the solemnity of this place and suggest that we give all of those people I have mentioned, but especially the witnesses and their families, the people who have been so courageous in coming here a very warm hand.

Thank you.

I think that every one of us must say that we have encountered some extraordinary people and I have said in the course of listening to the evidence that the oppressive system of apartheid did not stand a chance. The people who have come forward here are people of some quite extraordinary character. Thank you very much for your hospitality. .... as it hears the harrowing stories that you have been telling that there can be this willingness to forgive, this humaneness. On the one side you have a Mrs Savage saying the traumatic experience she has had has enriched her life and she wants to meet the person who did this in a spirit of forgiveness that she should forgive him and that he should forgive her. Extraordinary. And then the people from Cradock saying now something like a heavy burden has been removed from them.

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We give thanks to God for all of you. All of your stories, stories that are going to inspire us and inspire our people for many a long day. We believe that on the basis of what has happened here that this is probably the one way on which our land will be healed. We have been deeply touched by your stories and I think the world and our country has been deeply touched.

We will be going forward to another round of hearing in the Western Cape, in Cape Town starting next week. We pray that you will pray for all of us and for all who will be appearing that this process that has begun here will continue, that indeed we will all in this land experience this true freedom that embraces everyone, Black and White. Thank you.

REV FINCA: Your Grace on behalf of the East London office can I reciprocate and thank you and the deputy chairperson of the Commission and thank the fellow Commissioners who do not come from this area for your presence in our hearings. You have presided over our hearings with grace and with dignity and I believe that that grace and that dignity would not be possible if you did not dedicate yourself to doing so on these last four days.

May I also say a word of thanks to your Lady, Mrs Tutu for joining you for these hearings. Also a word of thanks to the Speaker of the Legislature and to his wife for the time that they have spent in this room in the last four days. It's amazing and extraordinary that a person of his busy schedule should be able to set aside the time to do this.

I wish to join you Chairperson in thanking the Mayor, the deputy Mayor and the City Council of East London for

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giving us this facility which proved to be an ideal facility for this hearing.

Lastly I thank all the people who have participated in this hearing and who have attended these hearings which I believe have been a resounding success. Without your support, without your presence, without your participation it would have been a failure. Thank you very much.

I wish to announce that the next hearing for the Eastern Cape Province will be in Port Elizabeth on the 21st to the 23rd of May 1996.

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