CHAIRPERSON: I would like now to call the second witness who is actually Sullivan Molokoane, Sullivan Molokoane who is going to tell us about the case involving his brother Barney Molokoane who, in fact, was killed together with two other people, Vincent Siketi and Victor Kayana and we have with us today together with Sullivan, the grandmother of Victor Kayana who has travelled all the way from the Transkei to be with us today. Mr Molokoane would you like to put on the earphones? Okay, can you hear through the earphones?
MR MOLOKOANE: Yes sir.
CHAIRPERSON: It is clear.
MR MOLOKOANE: Yes sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. Can you tell us who is with you please. Just, you do not need to stand yet, just sit, yes. If you could just tell us who is with you.
MR MOLOKOANE: On my right-hand I have got my mum who is Barney's mother. On my left I have the old lady, I will just, a mother to Victor Kayana, she is from Transkei.
CHAIRPERSON: Fine, thank you very much. We would like to welcome you here.
MR MOLOKOANE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Is it alright if we continue so long?
MR MOLOKOANE: Yes sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Before I ask Joyce Seroke to lead your evidence could you please stand.
SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: (Duly sworn in, states).
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I would like to ask Joyce Seroke, please, to lead you. Thank you.
MS SEROKE: I will ask Hugh to also ask Mama Kayana to stand up. I know she has not made a statement yet, but if she could also make the oath and after this we will ask her to submit a statement to our statement takers.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MS SEROKE: She is ready.
MRS KAYANA: (Duly sworn in, states).
MS SEROKE: Sullivan, we welcome you. Would you rather speak in English or Sotho or Zulu.
MR MOLOKOANE: I prefer English.
MS SEROKE: You prefer English, okay. You have come to tell us about what happened to your brother, Barney Molokoane, and, according to my calculations, he must have been 19 years old when he disappeared in 1976, because you say he was born in 1985.
MR MOLOKOANE: Yes.
MS SEROKE: On the 27th of August. Could you tell me what was he doing before he disappeared.
MR MOLOKOANE: Barney was attending school at one of the local schools, a technical school.
MS SEROKE: Where? Where?
MR MOLOKOANE: In Soweto, yes, in vocational training centre He was a builder there.
MS SEROKE: And was he an active member of the ANC?
MR MOLOKOANE: Just to tell the honest truth, we were not aware of that. All I can say is that during the upheavals of 1976 that is how, that is when we missed Barney mysteriously.
MS SEROKE: Before he disappeared he did not give you any indication that he was going to skip the country?
MR MOLOKOANE: Could I make a request. You know, I am getting interrupted, I wish the lady can stop then I can speak. I cannot hear.
MS SEROKE: Which. I think you should remove your earphones.
MR MOLOKOANE: Okay.
MS SEROKE: Then you will not get the translation.
MR MOLOKOANE: Okay, thanks.
MS SEROKE: Just to go back to my question.
MR MOLOKOANE: Yes.
MS SEROKE: Before he left the country did he give any indication to you or your mum that he was going to skip the country?
MR MOLOKOANE: That evening when he disappeared he said nothing to us. There was a call opposite, a house opposite our house where we were staying, you know, his acquaintance, regular guys that use to call him, like, going out to soccer to go and have some practises in the evening. So, these guys, you know, this guy called him by the name Barney, Barney, it was like seven o' clock in the evening and then off he left, because he was a soccer right and as usual he would attend his, you know, his practises and then that very evening he never came back home in the evening till the next morning. Then when he could not turn up, then I said to my mum, you know, what Barney is doing I do not like, maybe he thinks he is a bull in this house, I will deal with him. What we did now the next day, that was on Monday, we went to this guys home who was calling him.
When we arrived there and then we found out from the younger brother to this guy who was calling Barney, we found him and then we asked him where is Barney, I will not quote the guys name because there no mention to this. I said where is Barney and so and so. Then they said, this young chap said I, me, I do not know, all I heard, I heard them, you know, saying they were like talking and then I heard them saying they were going to skip the country. Then it became obvious to us that Barney had left though we never knew where he had left to. Then all what followed, I will go through my statement, in fact, if I may. Since he disappeared what followed thereafter was unending visits by a convoy of police who would search for Barney and they impounded his reference book at John Vorster Square and they pleaded with us, if we see Barney we must inform them, the police. We just made empty promises to that effect and we never told them anything about Barney.
Then in 1986, that is now after his disappearance. In 1986, can I say, yes 1986, there was a telegram from Lusaka.
MRS KAYANA: 85.
MR MOLOKOANE: Yes, so you are now cutting now from the disappearance now. We got a telegram from Lusaka informing us that Barney was no more and I have got a copy of it here. Now after the receipt of that telegram from Lusaka a painstaking consultation process began with Priscilla Jana who is an attorney and she was assisted by Richard Spoor. I use to frequent their office almost daily during lunch times. After some times a breakthrough was achieved in Middleburg. Priscilla Jana referred us to an attorney in Middleburg who in turn was to present us to a Colonel Visser and when we arrived there Mr Visser tried his utmost to be difficult and rude to us, trying hard to persuade us that the corpses we were to identify were not those we were looking for. When we insisted to Mr Visser that Priscilla Jana said the corpses were there. So eventually Mr Visser spread three photos on the table. All the three different families, I was I think, Mandisa, which is, I was with Mandisa representing Kayana from Swaziland there and then and the Meadowlands family were also there. All three of us identified photos that were strewn in front of us.
I saw Barney's face and same with the other families. Unfortunately, the only difference with the photos, what accompanied the photos, the names were different names, strange names that we did not know. Then Mr Visser told us to go back to our attorney, Priscilla Jana, who would inform us where the bodies were buried. After some brief spell three Comrades, graves were traced in Piet Retief. I have got a document here. As the attached document indicates at the cemetery of a small location called Tandabokaya, grave numbers 1070, 1071, 1072 respectively. The alleged deceased were Barney Molokoane, Victor Kayana and Vincent Siketi. The curtain has fallen on them. This reminds of an old Swana adage that says it is next to the road.
The lease we did, as Barney's parents, we organised a bus and family members slaughtered an ox and visited the graves. We also invited Vincent Siketi's family to join us. I have got the photos that show, that depict us at those graveyards, I mean at those grave sites. My concern to the TRC now is based on the surviving Comrades that were travelling in another vehicle with Barney, with Barney and company. I am told by Mathew Simelane and coincidentally Mathew Simelane was here just before me, he is my uncle. He told me, I am told by my uncle Mathew Simelane of 17 Zinoni Township, Bethal that before Sasol at Secunda was sabotaged by Barney and his six Comrades and Barney was in command of that operation.
Two vehicles were used. Each vehicle ferried three occupants and amongst those who survived there is this guy called Vaku Sezankakona. He is now a Colonel in the South African National Defence Force. This Vaku van, I am made to understand had been provided with hospitality by Mathew at Bethal and Swaziland many times during their most dangerous operations with Barney and to this day Vaku has not even made a brotherly gesture of ubuntu to thank my uncle Mathew Simelane or just to see Barney's family face to face and tell a story, what went wrong in that botched operation. Incidentally, Mathew Simelane's daughter, Nokuthula Simelane disappeared in South Africa during 1983 from Swaziland. To date we do not know what happened to her.
Barney Molokoena's family and Simelane's have been crippled by a double tragedy. After the unbanning of the ANC we entertain hope from Vaku to help trace Nokuthula, but all in vain. In my closing may I attach a copy of a report that details events of that fateful day. That is now the report that we got from Middleburg, you know, when we went there to, referred by Priscilla Jana, I got that report and this report, it, you know, it outlines five names here, that is now the Security Police names. We have got Cornelius J Botha, Theo J Victor, Willem W Badenhorst, Frederick J Pienaar and Hendrick F Weppenaar. I presume these are the security officers who could tell the TRC and us more. Why Barney's vehicle was overtaken and forced to stop by the Security Police, was there any tip-off. Those are the questions we are raising. Was there any tip-off from some collaborators, was Barney's unit infiltrated.
Whilst I was reading through a City Press newspaper in 1996, September, my eye caught something of interest which might help TRC with their investigations. There is this name again, Frederick Pienaar. He features in Barney's report. This Pienaar man, I read about him in some of the cases where something like nine or eight children were murdered there in Piet Retief. So I think that can also give us a clue as to what happened about the day when Barney and them died. I am hoping that the remains of Barney and his Comrades will also be exhumed in consultation with family members for a decent reburial.
During the unbanning of MK at Orlando Stadium some along ladies in their regalia approached us with a message from their colleague who could not make it to the ceremony as she was in Zambia. These ladies informed us their friend has a child with Barney. We made follow ups in a bid to trace the child as far as Ermelo. The grandmother of the boy, that is of Barney's son, the grandmother said to us, yes, the child is there, the child, yes, is there, however, she warned us that that child was having problems. There was no care on that child. Staying from one family to another. I appeal to those who could shed light about Barney's child to telephone this number, 9806920 with Johannesburg code 011.
Barney, we are told, was a member of a special operation unit which, I believe, was an elite wing of MK and this unit reported directly to Joe Slovo and Oliver Tambo respectively and the following missions are but a few Barney Molokoane is credited with. A sabotage of Sasol One in 1980, Voortrekkers Hoogte in 1981 which avenged the attack of Matolo by South African Defence Force in Maputo. Sabotage of Secunda for the third time resulting in his death. A skirmish in Zeerust in which he was shot in the leg, he struggled back to Botswana pulling his leg and many more missions according to some of the magazines that the ANC is selling. May their shattered remains get an undisturbed rest after their exhumation. Thank you very much.
MS SEROKE: Thank you Mr Molokoane. I would like to commend you for taw wonderful research that you have made regarding your brother's death and we are grateful for the number of attachments that, you know, followed your statement. The copy of the inquest and the paper clippings of the City Press and a copy of the telegram and a copy of the post mortem. We have noted your requests that you would like the pension money that was owed to your brother to be handed over to the family and that you want the remains of your brother so that you could bury him in Soweto. In as far as your other allegations are concerned regarding Vaku Sezankakona we will merely communicate with the ANC about that, but I would like to find out from you did the family on its own ever try to meet with Vaku Sezankakona to find out more details about what happened?
MR MOLOKOANE: In 1986, soon after these guys had met their fateful death Vaku's mum use to frequent my home at Laki, but the way she was doing it, she was overdoing it and it was a sensitive period then and she use to like crowd us, I would put it that way up until a certain stage whereby my mum said, you know, I think you better stop coming here, because we were not happy with the account of events that she was presenting to us. I mean her son survived, her son survived and our sons are dead, but she kept coming, but we could not really understand why was she coming. My mum could just pick up something that she does not like the old lady, but now in terms of mam asking me whether we have initiated a meeting with Vaku now of late, we have not. However, what I can say next to our home there is a youngster who is also at Walmasdal. He once informed us he was with Vaku. Vaku was coming to deliver him at his home with the other soldiers and then he said to Vaku Comrade Barney stays next door. That is where Comrade Barney use to say. I mean, really, really if we are to exercise our ubuntu this guy should have either went to my home, to my mum's place, knocked and said, hi mama, here I am. Since we last parted with Barney, parted our ways during that botched up operation at Piet Retief. I mean, it does not mean Vaku does not know where we stay, but, mam, we have not tried to try and look for Vaku, because we are very sceptical that we will ever get a fair account of events on his side. That is my suspicion. I do not know what my, the old lady has to say, because we are also in the same boat.
MS SEROKE: In this Sowetan clipping here, this article by Sharon Chetty, I think it is, it came about just in 1996. She mentions that the ANC at the advice of Nelson Mandela formed a committee for the bereaved and the task of this committee was to inform the families of cadres who had died in exile. Have you ever been in touch with such a committee in Shell House to find out more about what happened?
MR MOLOKOANE: Mam Seroke, that committee, I will put it blunt, it is a laughing stock to me, a laughing stock. My brother died in 1985. It does not mean that they do not know, it does not mean that they do not know, it does not mean they do not know where does Barney stay. It was easy for them in exile to locate Barney's home by sending a telegram, it landed at home. Now of late when they are now free of any restrictions in South Africa they can hardly come there. To be honest with you mam, to answer you in 1996, 1996 it was the first time we saw two gentlemen of the Bereavement Committee, I will not mention their names. We saw those two gentlemen coming to my home the 20th of June 1996, 1995, yes, 1995 the 20th of June. I am saying the 20th because I am working for the bank, I am getting paid the 20th. I said I will memorise that day, that date, I will memorise that date. It is the first time they dared to come to my home and I know the reason why. It was because I was waging, I was waging a fierce battle against Nokuthula, trying to help my uncle to locate Nokuthula, to look around for Nokuthula. As a matter of fact, I am the one who revealed where Nokuthula is by helping this uncle of mine. It was, the things that, my comments are the ones that made this gentlemen to come to my home, but what they came there for I do not know, but it had nothing to do with any help so far that we really need, absolutely.
MS SEROKE: The same article goes on to say Barney Molokoane, Victor Kayana and Vincent Siketi were killed in a fire-fight with security forces when they tried to enter Swaziland at the Houtkop Border posts and, as I said, all we can do in terms of your other questions relating to Vaku, we could refer those to the ANC and, as you know, the ANC has made submissions as a party to the TRC and we will also find out and refer your questions to them. In terms of the child you say you have, you believe there was a child and you talk about a grandmother, but at the end of your statement you still say if anybody knows of that child. So I am a bit confused now, because I thought you knew the whereabouts of the child.
MR MOLOKOANE: Okay, I will clarify. I will clarify by saying we have been sent on a hell of a, I beg your pardon, we have been sent on a wild goose chase in search of that very little boy. There was a young lady, she was working somewhere at Natalspruit, she was working at Natalspruit. The way they purported this lady to be, they purported that lady as Barney's girlfriend so by the information we got from Ermelo, that is now from the grandmother's place, she said there is a lady who can help you, go to Natalspruit. So we went to this industrial area where she is working. So we parked there and waited for them to come out lunchtime. Then we accosted this lady and then we said to her, no, we are Barney's family, blah, blah. So we are looking for Barney's child thinking that this lady was Barney's girlfriend. You know, that lady she cried and she was, you know, she was just confused, but she was not of any help to us. Now it turnout at the end of the day this lady was a younger sister, a younger sister, yes, she was a younger sister to Barney's girlfriend, the mother of this boy.
Now we went back, we phoned back the old lady in Ermelo and said how we managed to go to the industrial area, we managed to get this lady and then she was not of any help to us. Now, the old lady said to us I find it strange, why is this lady behaving that way. Now, you know, it was a hell of a confusion, but now at the end of the day it turned out that this girl at the industrial area at Natalspruit. She was the one who was entrusted with Barney's child, to look after that boy. Now she got married, somewhere she got married, somewhere in Natalspruit. Now the boy, Barney's boy was now out of her control again. So, of late I believe that boy was somewhere in Piet Retief in some of the shacks there. It is a pathetic story to listen to. That is why I am putting this number that whoever is there, because it seems the old lady still, the child is out of her bounds now.
MS SEROKE: Well, we have a very strong committee of Mpumulanga made up of priests from different churches and I am sure we will ask them to pursue this on our behalf if they happen to get any links from you. Just to wind up now, you talked about Barney's pension.
MR MOLOKOANE: Yes mam.
MS SEROKE: And I wonder if you are aware that the ANC now has started a pension fund for all the people who died in exile and I wonder if you could not go to Shell House in terms of this request that you are making.
MR MOLOKOANE: I frequent Shell House because I happen to work in Kloof Street and I am rallying through not only on my behalf, but even on behalf of the old lady from Transkei and the Meadowlands families. I have made submissions on behalf of all these families to the Shell House and I can say the pensions I was told of late, before I came here I did consult with them so that I can report to the families here where are we now. Now they said to me everything is at an advanced stage to get those pensions. So that is what I was going to tell them. So I am aware of that and there is yet another which I call, they call it demobilisation package which is also, I have also made their submissions, put their names on the application forms. So that is one is still also a subject for debate, yes.
MS SEROKE: Thank you.
MR MOLOKOANE: Yes.
MS SEROKE: Now, lastly you have asked for the remains of Barney.
MR MOLOKOANE: Yes.
MS SEROKE: And, like our Chairperson said earlier on, we have that scheme of reburial and in your case it is easier than the previous case of the Simelanes'. We know where there graves are and they have been identified as 1070, 71 and 72. That will be referred to the TRC and we hope your request will be attended to.
MR MOLOKOANE: Okay.
MS SEROKE: Thank you very much. I do not know whether Mama Kayana has anything to say, because I think you have covered everything, maybe on her side.
MRS KAYANA: In 1979, January, Victor Kayana got lost, disappeared. After his disappearance he left his children behind. He came back to collect his children. Thereafter I was ill-treated by the police security, humiliated by securities. I was being harassed, clapped. I am asking, underestimating if I can say I saw some glasses such that I have difficulty in seeing now. I have been treated, but I still have difficulty in seeing. Thereafter in 1985, November I received a letter from Ermelo Education Department. As I am working as a teacher that letter stated that I should go to Ermelo to collect my UIF. Then I understood that that was just a sort of a snare. That when I left Ermelo, where I was staying in Devon I was running away from the harassment of the police.
We were raided daily, day and night and we use to have so many visitors, police or soldiers and my disabled child was being beaten by dogs. When we reported the matter to the police we were not, our statements were not taken. In 1985 after receiving the letter that I should report at Ermelo I just understood that it was just a snare that I should go to Ermelo. I then received the telephone from Swaziland that Victor is late. Then I went to Swaziland trying to connect the death of Victor and Barney's and Victor's death. Then we met, I met Mr Simelane. Then he took me to Barney's place. What I am trying to say is that the statement that was given by Pepu coincides exactly with my statement, because we have been working together trying to trace our kids where they have been buried. We even tried, we even connected, consulted with Priscilla Jana who assisted us. Unfortunately, we could not get hold of our children's corpses. We tried to make memorial services at, I did the memorial service at Flagstaff, because I was in Transkei, because having failed to get the clear statement I stayed.
They went to Middleburg. Unfortunately I was at school, because I received the information, message late. So I could not go. Then Mandiswa went there. After partying with them then I could not anything clear. I got clarification from Lusaka that I should visit Lusaka. Then I visited Lusaka as well to see Victor's children. After I saw Victor's children after the death of Sipho Kayana on the 16th of September 1986. Victor also died whilst working for ANC. I tried to look for, I would like to have the death certificate of Sipho, because what I would like to have Sipho's death certificate, because he is, because my police stated that after, the policies had said that we are going to benefit from his policy. After some time I received the paper that says that soldiers will never die, but fade away.
In 1985 when everything was quiet I wrote a letter to the President, the President of Transkei. Unfortunately, the President was not available when the letter reached his office. Then the secretary answered the letter and said that the matter has been referred to Shell House. Thereafter I have never received anything from Shell House. My request is more or less the same as what Mr Pepu has requested. Everything was just the same. We have been working in co-operation with the Simelane, the Pepu and the Kayana families trying to trace our kids. My request is that Victor, I have never, my request is that I have never seen Victor's grave. So my request is that he should be reburied, they should be exhumed and be buried.
There is another child whom is said, as it is said that, there is another child that was buried in Swaziland who died whilst fighting for freedom which is now being enjoyed by everybody, but today people that have suffered a lot about their kids and having tears rolling down their cheeks, but we do not see anything, everything is just quiet. I would request that that person, that child should also be exhumed from Swaziland and be buried where he comes from. His father died in Bethal, somewhere in Bethal so he should be exhumed from Swaziland to be buried in, he should be exhumed from Swaziland and be buried in Bethal. His family should be collected from Transkei to come and attend that reburial.
My other request is that as Victor is having kids, his kids should be given something. It should not be just as he said about Vaku. As we had gone to Lusaka we were promised the bursaries for the kids, but those bursaries were never made available. So we would request that something should be done so that we should feel that, should feel for the kids that died for, in freedom as it.
MS SEROKE: Thanks very much Mrs Kayana about the explanation that you have given to us. As we have indicated that your statement is more or less the same as that of Mr Molokoane, as you have not written your statement you should not, okay, you should be accompanied by the briefer to the statement takers and please put that statement exactly as you put it here, because if you do not have your statement you will not be able to put your, we will not be able to make follow-ups to your requests. We have heard your story and we understand them. We would like to thank you for the efforts that you have taken by travelling all the way from Transkei to come and give a statement here. So what we would like to know from you is how many kids did Victor take to Lusaka.
MRS KAYANA: Victor's kids were four that he took along. It was, Sipho was the third one who was left here. Sipho was left in Lusaka, the other three came back. There were other two that were left again.
MS SEROKE: Who is staying with them?
MRS KAYANA: They are staying here at Bethal with their mother in a shack.
MS SEROKE: We will take up all the statements to the ANC's offices including the bursary issues and regarding the grave issues you must have heard what was being said about the grave numbers and so on.
MRS KAYANA: My request is that even Donald Kayana's grave should also be included when they are being exhumed. Donald Kayana is also having three kids that grew up in Swaziland.
MS SEROKE: So you will have to write that statement down. I will hand over the Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Joyce, Wynand.
MR MALAN: Just a piece of information to Mr Molokoane. Mrs Seroke referred to the programme that we have in terms of exhumations and reburials, but that is a very limited programme. That only relates at the moment to our own activities on investigations where we find out through amnesty applications, mainly, that people have disappeared, were killed and buried and we exhume the remains in order to identify the victim. So we do not yet have a programme simply of reburials where the people who have died are known and especially in marked graves. I do not want you to be under a misunderstanding of that. That may be part of a policy that we may recommend to the Government for reparations and rehabilitation. So just as, for you to know about that, if there is no immediate follow-up on your requests on that and then secondly I just have, I mean you really gave us a very comprehensive statement with all the documents as Mrs Seroke has observed, it is very well researched. The one thing that is outstanding in my mind is simply the knowledge about the incident, the fact that you say there were two cars, the feats credited to your late brother in terms of Sasol, Voortrekker Hoogte and others. You have only one source in terms of your statement which is Mr Simelane.
MR MOLOKOANE: Yes.
MR MALAN: Is it possible and maybe I should address myself to Mr Simelane, but while you are here at the moment, that we get more information on his sources, because all the statements of the police that you have also copied us with refer only to the single car. They do not refer even to a second car in the operations. So if we can pursue this with the statement taker just after the hearing it will help us a lot if we are to investigate anything further. That also goes then specifically for Mr Vaku Sezankakona which you referred to who clearly in terms of the evidence was perceived to be a member of MK ...
MR MOLOKOANE: Yes.
MR MALAN: ... in fact is now a Colonel in the SANDF according to your statement, but all this information comes only from your statement and you quote as your sole source your uncle.
MR MOLOKOANE: Yes.
MR MALAN: So if we can pursue that we will be appreciative of it.
MR MOLOKOANE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Tom.
MR MANTHATA: Can I just recap Molokoane. Are we saying that these people died in a skirmish with the SADF as compared to what happened to Nokuthula who was detained, tortured and, you know, died in the manner she did.
MR MOLOKOANE: I do not understand the question. Can you rephrase it?
MR MANTHATA: My question is did these three die in a semi-combat with the police or were they detained, ...
MR MOLOKOANE: I see.
MR MANTHATA: ... tortured ...
MR MOLOKOANE: Okay.
MR MANTHATA: You know.
MR MOLOKOANE: Okay. No, they apparently, from what read from the newspaper, you see, we are getting a different version from time to time, but it is for you to, you know, to deduce which way, you know, you find it sensible. I will start from the beginning when they sabotaged Secunda. Barney, Mathew Simelane being the uncle happened to know Barney, because Mathew Simelane was raised by my mum. So now Barney being in exile happened to know Bethal as his uncle's place. From time to time when he would jump the border, come this side for whatever mission he would always worry my uncle. There I want to put it clearly. It does not mean my uncle was then a terrorist, whatever, he was merely harbouring his nephew who just pounced on him with these six guys driving those vans of theirs. Now he would harbour them there, Mishane, but he would also caution Mishane, you are putting me into a hell of a quandary, you are putting me into a dilemma. So he would harbour them in that way. So hence he happened to know these guys, how many they were. That is why now and I am coming to this thing that these guys were travelling in two cars. I believe that they were travelling in two cars. That is what he told me. So where I have a problem is when the other vehicle could make it from, all the way from Bethal and then it goes straight into Swaziland with Vaku inside, being a soldier. I do not know the all the nitty grittys of being a soldier when other soldiers are fighting, can you run away. I do not know about that. How he broke away I do not know, but what I cannot really, really rest until I get an explanation is how did he break away from Barney. That is why I am saying maybe ANC can clarify that to us, but we are asking questions.
Now, in the report that I got from Middleburg the people that, as Priscilla Jana was probing this case, there is a report where the first security man, a certain Mr Botha, says I saw this bakkie and then I overtook this bakkie and then I flagged that bakkie must stop. Then whilst I was a couple, I was in few metres away he slowed down, this bakkie where Barney was. Then they shot at him. Just there Barney's vehicle just decided to turn backward. I do not know either going back from the way it came from. Then it fell into a ditch and these guys got out and tried to walk. Then the police, I do not know, he rallied around for support from the, some of, a farmer there. So then they came now in, they phone all different regiments or Alice there in the neighbourhood to come and pounce on Barney and them. So what I am saying is it is either these guys. They knew that Barney would be coming, because cops, this man is a dangerous man. They were really, really looking for him. I have a suspicion that there is foul play in my brother's death up until I get clarification.
MR MANTHATA: If I understand you well, because all what I wanted to know is were they detained.
MR MOLOKOANE: No, they were never detained, they were never arrested.
MR MANTHATA: Fine.
MR MOLOKOANE: They just died on that spot.
MR MANTHATA: That is all I wanted.
MR MOLOKOANE: Yes.
MR MANTHATA: Yes. Mrs, yes, what do we know about the family of Vincent?
MR MOLOKOANE: Okay, alright fine, okay. Vincent, okay, because, you know, since they died everything that I was pursuing with Priscilla Jana, I did it on the basis of three.
MR MANTHATA: Okay.
MR MOLOKOANE: That is why now I ...
MR MANTHATA: Can I just arrest you there. What I want to know is are you saying that Vincent's family, ...
MR MOLOKOANE: Yes.
MR MANTHATA: ... all members of his family are dead?
MR MOLOKOANE: No, the father is no more, the mother is no more. So it is only the uncles and the aunts who are surviving now, yes.
MR MANTHATA: And he had not married at the time?
MR MOLOKOANE: No.
MR MANTHATA: He was not married at the time?
MR MOLOKOANE: Absolutely not.
MR MANTHATA: So in short nobody, nobody has survived except, you know, those uncles and so on, who have survived him.
MR MOLOKOANE: I am not so much familiar with that family really, really to be honest with you.
MR MANTHATA: No, fine.
MR MOLOKOANE: Except just to know a little bit of background about them from their, the other, one sister that we have been running around with. That is who was now, like, representing Skittis. I think it is Skittis mother's sister.
MR MANTHATA: Okay.
MR MOLOKOANE: That is right, yes.
MR MANTHATA: Then, Mrs Kayana, what is the position of your daughter-in-law, that is the mother to the children of Victor?
MRS KAYANA: She stays in a shack.
MR MANTHATA: And she was not willing or even able to give a statement to the TRC?
MRS KAYANA: It is as if she did make a statement to TRC.
MR MANTHATA: I see.
MRS KAYANA: It is just that she requested that seeing that I know far much better about this matter here, I should come and give the statement and give evidence.
MR MANTHATA: Then you talk about Donald. Donald was a MK too in exile.
MRS KAYANA: Donald was an ANC member in exile.
MR MANTHATA: And he died in exile?
MRS KAYANA: Yes, he died in exile.
MR MANTHATA: I see.
MRS KAYANA: It seems as if he had a wound at the back whilst he was in Swaziland.
MR MANTHATA: Okay.
MRS KAYANA: He had a bullet wound.
MR MANTHATA: I think for that Shell House should be able to shed more light, because it seems to have, as it has been pointed out, they have a committee much as it may be ineffective, but there are people who are fulltime on the members of MK who died both in exile and inside. Would you say, Mrs Kayana, that the children of Victor, are they still of school going age?
MRS KAYANA: There are two who are still of school going age. They are still in school, but only two still in school. Others are old now.
MR MANTHATA: Thank you. No further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Ma Molokoane, Mr Molokoane and Ma Kayana I would like to just end off by thanking you very much for coming here for telling us these full stories. I think they fall into two parts really, because on the one hand there is the part which involved all their activities while the struggle was on and there is now the second part which is your understandable anger and frustration and possibly even bitterness which comes from not being able to find out more about the details that you need. I think that is the situation as I see it and this is all the more bitter in the sense that from a, from one point of view one can say that what these people were doing makes them very much heroes of the struggle. So you are seeking recognition for that, you are seeking for an acknowledgement and what we will do is to see what we can do in terms of following up to get more details, but I think what I would like to do is to support your appeal to these people who are still around, who were involved and who can possibly come forward with more information. I would add our appeal to them to come forward and assist you with more information and I would like to thank you very much for coming. Thank you.
MR MOLOKOANE: Thank you. Thank you very much sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and gentlemen I think what we will do now is take a short break. We will not take a full half a hour break, but it is a very cold day and we do need to move around. We will come back as soon after five past 12 as possible and please look after your headsets.
