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Human Rights Violation Hearings

Type 1 D MAY, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

Starting Date 28 August 1996

Location UITENHAGE

Day 3

Names DANILE WILBERFORCE MAY

CHAIRPERSON: We are now going to call Danile Wilberforce

May. Mr Sandi will lead you.

DANILE WILBERFORCE MAY: (sworn states)

MR SANDI: Mr May, when I look at your statement, your

complaint is in a certain year, in the past years, a certain

gentlemen whom you are going to mention later on, accused

you in Port Elizabeth, that you were a police informer or

sell out. Because of this allegation, by this person, a lot

of things happened to you. Just before we get into that, Mr

May, can we start with some of the important things.

Right now, you are no longer staying in Port ElizabEth,

where are you staying, Mr May?

MR MAY: I am staying in Gauteng.

MR SANDI: Let's make it quick Mr May, and get into details

of what you are going to talk about.

MR MAY: Thank you very much Mr Sandi. I am one of the

people who were in the forefront. The people who formed the

organisation called Zwide Residential Organisation. I was

with Mr Tozamile Botha. The aim of this organisation was to

fight that the then municipality, we mustn't pay for rates.

By that time we didn't know that people are supposed to pay

for water. We formed this organisation.

MR SANDI: What year was that?

MR MAY: That was in 1979.

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2 D MAY

MR SANDI: Can you mention again, the name of this

organisation

MR MAY: It was Zwide Residential Association. After this

organisation was formed, we sat down as members of the

executive committee, which among them where people like,

Sipho Grootbom and Tolile Mbepe and others. We took a

decision that the level of this organisation is not big

enough.

MR SANDI: Couldn't you form a bigger organisation than that

on?

MR MAY: There was another organisation for the people of

Fort Tishas called the Fort Organisation, and another one

which was called Gwasakeli for residents. With the leaders

of these organisations, we formed another one which was

called PEPCO. During this time, in Zwide, Mr Botha was

president, and I was his secretary, when we formed this

organisation. In all the meetings that we used to hold,

they used to be big at that time because most of the people

were mostly interested in this matter of rent and water. I

was always in front as a secretary of this organisation and

Tozamile Botha who was a spokesman, this was for Zwide

Residential Association. I was a secretary and Tozamile

Botha was a chairman.

He managed that in this organisation, there was a rent

boycott which was discussed by these. I was for the rent

boycott and Tozamile was against the rent boycott. The rent

boycott was successful because I was always the MC of this

organisation, and I managed. I was a leader of this rent

boycott. The people were not paying rent in Zwide, the

people were not paying for water, they were not paying for

electricity.

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3 D MAY

In September, I can't remember the date, whether it was

1979, we formed this PEPCO because we wanted this thing to

take place all over, not only in Zwide, but also in Port

Elizabeth.

After forming PEPCO, since there was fault in Zwide,

and Gwazakeli, we had to create Walmer and New Brighton

townships. During a certain year, I think it was towards

the end of 1980 or the beginning of 1981.

MR SANDI: Excuse me Mr May, without interrupting you, I

want to confirm that we are together with these events. You

are talking the formation of PEPCO. It is you and Mr

Tozamile Botha who were executive members of PEPCO?

MR MAY: Thank you. Because of the fact that there was this

rent boycott, which was taking place only in Zwide, I was no

longer of the Zwide, but I was not in the top executive of

PEPCO, so I remained being the secretary of this other

association. Being a leader of this rent boycott which took

place in 1980.

Towards the end of 1990 and the beginning of 1991,

there was a residents meeting in Walmer, it was very hot.

During that time, PEPCO was popular in the Western Cape.

During this meeting, we also had another meeting for Zwide

residents. I was left being a leader of the Randville Court

in Zwide and I was in charge of that meeting, which was held

in Kaalnets Cinema on that particular evening. During that

particular evening, the executive of Pepcore including

Chume.

MR SANDI: Mr May, can we just talk about this meeting where

you were accused.

MR MAY: I am coming bit by bit. On that particular

meeting, people like Palochimoto, Zamile Botha from Walmer,

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4 D MAY

were arrested by the police. I was in Zwide, in a meeting

there. The following day, I got the information that they

were arrested. After that, as the people who formed this

PEPCO, we took a decision that if they are arrested, we are

still facing this matter of rent boycott, we rather start

campaigning and fund raise. We fund raised in Zwide

Residential Association.

MR SANDI: Excuse me Mr May, I would request that you stick

to the incident that affected you as a person, as a person

who is complaining. While you are still there, I am going

to ask you questions.

In that meeting, where you say Mr Botha accused you,

did he tell you the reason?

MR MAY: No, he didn't explain anything to me, he may have

told the other people.

MR SANDI: Were you present at that meeting?

MR MAY: No, I was not in the first meeting, the one that

was held in front of my house, with his colleague.

MR SANDI: Who was present?

MR MAY: My wife was in the house.

MR SANDI: These two meetings that you are referring to, do

you refer to the meetings that you are inside the house, or

just the meetings that were held in an open place just like

this one?

MR MAY: When he came back from detention, he didn't come

back to the meetings because they were banned. The meeting

that he used to hold were the private meetings. On this

particular night, he had a meeting with Fort workers that's

when they decided to go to my place where they held the

meeting in front of my house and he brought these

accusations.

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5 D MAY

MR SANDI: Were you present?

MR MAY: No, my wife was in the house, I came, and it was

towards the end of the meeting.

MR SANDI: Were there other people who came to you and told

you that you are accused by Mr Botha?

MR MAY: When I arrived at this meeting, as it was held at

the front of my house, when I heard that they were talking

about me, and I told them that I was present, I wanted to

know what was happening, but there were people who told me

that Botha is saying this and that about me. I wanted the

meeting to continue, but the meeting was terminated.

MR SANDI: Did you ask Mr Botha what me meant by that?

MR MAY: About in the past 6 to 7 weeks I met him.

MR SANDI: I mean, during the time before he left the

country, did you make any efforts that a person who said all

these things about you in public, you meet that particular

person and asked for an explanation?

MR MAY: During that very same week, I called a meeting,

which was held in Countsnemmar, which was on a Sunday, as I

wanted a full explanation.

MR SANDI: Did you get any explanation, what was the

explanation?

MR MAY: The meeting was adjourned without him coming

forward to explain the accusations, instead he repeated that

I sold him out.

MR SANDI: You continue in your statement saying that Mr

Botha left the country, going to another country. How did

you get that information, did you read that information in

the newspaper, or what?

MR MAY: I was staying in no.32 Mangai Street, and he was

staying directly opposite my house.

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6 D MAY

MR SANDI: You even said in your statement, because of these

accusations, you decided to quit politics, you decided to be

a business man. Is there any specific reason, or any

motivation that lead you to do that?

MR MAY: During that time, the Pepcore was divided into two

groups. It was destroyed, and there were two groups formed,

there is Kosana and Mr Botha. I decided to step down, I was

no longer working as a person who was working in Barclays

Bank then, I discovered that if I was going to concentrate

on politics, I was not going to gain anything. I decided to

work for myself.

MR SANDI: Just before we go to the list of things that

happened to you because of these accusations, I would like

to ask a question. Are your comrades, the very comrades

that you were with in that Pepcore Organisation, did you

tell them the reasons for you to quit.

MR MAY: The majority of the Pepcore, with the majority of

the Pepcore Founders, we stepped in.

MR SANDI: Can we go now to the details, where you say as a

businessman, you started a business as a Paratics man in

1984, and you got married. What incident took place in your

life during the time you were a businessman because of these

accusations in 1980.

MR MAY: The first one that I can talk about, on a certain

day, I was on my way to a business meeting. I went past

Motherwell. My business was in Motherwell, because I was

evicted from my house. I was in front of Mr Klaasie's house

who is a brother of Mr Golo, the owner of the Themba Labanto

Supermarket. He was also a business partner, we were going

to a meeting on that particular day. I went past his house.

MR SANDI: Do you refer to this particular day in 1985,

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7 D MAY

whereby the Themba Labanto Supermarket in Veeplaas, where

you had a business.

MR MAY: Yes, I am referring to that particular day, but my

business was in Motherwell Township, but I went to another

businessman who was in Veeplaas because we were going to the

same meeting.

MR SANDI: Let us talk about that day at Themba Labanto

Supermarket. You say people came in, on that particular

day, people who called themselves comrades, or the people

that you believed were comrades, these people abducted you?

What did they say, did they give you any reasons for this

abduction?

MR MAY: They said that I sold out Mr Botha.

MR SANDI: Do you know these people who were doing this?

MR MAY: If I can go up and down, I can get one of them, but

I don't know, nobody knows who were doing these things, but

it is not very easy to point them, but they were comrades.

MR SANDI: You mentioned two gentlemen in your statement.

You say that they helped you to escape. Can you briefly

tell about how you knew the men?

MR MAY: If the two gentlemen that you are referring to are

Mr Glass and Mr Aplay, I am not sure if you are talking

about them, can you please confirm that?

MR SANDI: Yes, I wanted you to mention those names, thank

you. ...(Tape ends)...

MR MAY: Because we were going to attend a meeting together.

He is the one, that when these comrades abducted me, he

forced that he was not going to be left behind. He followed

with his car, behind my car, the one that was taken by these

comrades. Mr Glass saw where these comrades took me.

MR SANDI: You said that this Mr Glass, is late now, what

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8 D MAY

was the cause of his death, is it because of that conflict?

MR MAY: No, he died in a car accident.

MR SANDI: Before we go further, I want to ask this

question, you say that on this particular day, you survived

the necklace, they were going to necklace you?

MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.

MR SANDI: Was there any evidence that they were going to

necklace you? Did they have a tyre?

MR MAY: The petrol was drained from my car, and they were

even going to use my own spare wheel, and my petrol.

MR SANDI: On the 31 December 1991, you say that among the

businesses that you had, you say that you had a butchery, a

club house?

MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.

MR SANDI: Before we talk about that, I would like to go

back to that second gentleman, who helped you, besides Mr

Aplay. Is that Mr Sitelo Aplay who was head of the Anti

Crime?

MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.

MR SANDI: Yes, we can go on now. You say that in that Club

House on the 31 December, can you briefly tell us what

happened?

MR MAY: On the 31 December, about 7:30 in the evening,

people fought in my tavern.

MR SANDI: Who were fighting?

MR MAY: It was me, and the other comrades who were about 9.

MR SANDI: Is there anything that they said concerning the

accusations of Mr Botha?

MR MAY: There was nothing, there was no accusation which

was connected to Mr Botha, besides the fact that they were

saying that I am rich because of the money from the Boers.

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9 D MAY

Though I was telling them to go home, because I wanted to

close the Tavern.

MR SANDI: Do you say that this attack is connected to this

accusation of Mr Botha?

MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.

MR SANDI: Can you tell us the reason why you reconcile the

two, whereas they said nothing concerning that accusation?

MR MAY: These people were comrades, who abducted me, who

were going to necklace me. It was also the comrades who sat

in my house forcefully. The fact that they said that I was

rich because of the money from the Boers, as a person who

was an informer, who sold Mr Botha, that is the reason why I

connect the two.

MR SANDI: Do you say, on the 1 January 1992, when you went

to your businesses, you were told that there were combis

that are looking for you, the combis that belonged to the

comrades, did they tell you who these comrades were?

MR MAY: No, I was not told. They just said to me that the

comrades were looking for me, the comrades from Motherwell

were looking for me.

MR SANDI: But because you heard that it was a combi that

was looking for you, you decided to go and see a certain

gentleman whom you refer as Mr Mondem Ntanga, who was the

chairman of the Mother Well Civic Organisation. Did you

talk with Mr Ntanga?

MR MAY: Before I could talk to Mr Ntanga, they arrived, the

workers arrived before I could even open the business. When

I opened the business, the comrades came and told me that

they want me in there meeting but they didn't tell me the

reason. I decided to go and meet the chairman of the branch

of the Pepcore of Motherwell, which was Mr Ntanga then. I

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10 D MAY

wanted to know the agenda for that meeting.

MR SANDI: The investigation that Mr Ntanga said he was

going to make concerning this. Was there anything that you

gathered from that?

MR MAY: When I arrived there, before 10:00, I went to him

as a person, who was a chairman because I wanted to know

more about the agenda because he told me that he is not

clear about the agenda, because it is the ASEP, and Azapo.

He is not the one who called the meeting.

MR SANDI: Do you mean that you arrived in the meeting which

had it's own matters that were to be discussed?

MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.

MR SANDI: By the way, you said what happened to your

butchery?

MR MAY: In this meeting, I was requested to wait outside.

They called me at about 11:30. At about 11:30 I was told

that the decision has been taken that I must go and close

down all my businesses in Motherwell and I must leave Mother

Well before 12:00 that day.

MR SANDI: Who took over your butchery, the butcher that you

complained about?

MR MAY: First of all, I closed my butchery because it was

the 1 December 1992. I closed my butchery and everything

was rotten, especially the food. I tried to consult people

telephonically, I was writing to them, I was going to the

people personally for help, but instead of getting a

positive answer from these people, after three of four

months, I discovered that someone has taken over by the name

of Wiseman Kula, who was the co-chairman of that meeting

where he requested that I close my butchery.

MR SANDI: In order for us to reach our conclusion, you said

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11 D MAY

because of this treatment, you left Port Elizabeth, you

decided to go to Gauteng, are you a businessman there also?

MR MAY: No, I am just staying there. I am just sitting.

MR SANDI: Towards our conclusion, Mr May, what are your

wishes, what is your request to the Commission?

MR MAY: My first wish is I want to get a full explanation

and he must also tell the people of Port Elizabeth and

Uitenhage about me and he mustn't say that even when I come,

the people must not look at me and feel jealous, he must

just explain the details of these accusations.

MR SANDI: Among other things, you say you request that the

Commission must investigate about your butchery and your

Club House, the one that you lost under those conditions.

How can you regain them is that correct?

MR MAY: It is not only that, I want you to investigate, but

I want this commission to get my butchery back from the ANC.

I know that you don't have enough money, but ANC has got

some means to bring back my house and by butchery and my

family and to regain my dignity.

MR SANDI: Thank you very much Mr May, we are going to

investigate, we are going to find the truth, you can now go

back to your seat.

 
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