CASE NO: CT/00438
VICTIM: RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN
NATURE OF VIOLENCE: SHOT & KILLED
TESTIMONY BY: RICHARD CAROLLISEN [brother]
SANDRA MESSIAS [girlfriend]
DR ORR
[indistinct] then I will ask both of you to take the oath, Mr Carollisen would you stand first.
RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN Duly sworn states
SANDRA MESSIAS Duly sworn states
DR ORR
I’ll now hand you over to Adv Denzil Potgieter who will facilitate your evidence.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you very much Wendy, good morning Mr Carollisen.
MR CAROLLISEN
Good morning
ADV POTGIETER
And you to Ms Messias - is it Messeas or Messias.
MS MESSIAS
It’s Messias.
ADV POTGIETER
Good morning Miss, welcome. We are going to start with you Mr Carollisen and as soon as you’ve finished we will proceed with Ms Messias. Your case goes back to 1976, twenty years ago and it deals with an shooting incident where your late brother Ronald Charles Carollisen was shot dead by the police, is the correct?
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes, that’s right.
ADV POTGIETER
Would you like to tell us what happened on this particular day, perhaps you would give us the specific date as well on which it happened.
MR CAROLLISEN
It was on the 8th of September 1976, on that day - as in the days prior to that - there was unrest in the aria Cloetesville where we lived in Stellenbosch.
At that stage approximately a week prior to that we have moved to a new home and as a result of that the house we had occupied previously was unoccupied and we used to keep a watchful eye on that house. And as usual my brother and I would go and check on the old house and walk up to our new house because we used to have supper at 6 o’clock and no later.
On this particular day, as I said there was a lot of unrest in the area - periodic unrest in the area - and I remember a specific incident that day - I’m merely mentioning it because it influenced my line of thought. And I remember a policemen in camouflage who kept hitting a 4-to-5-year-old with shambocks so much so that she wet herself. And just before that another man in the community, Mr Kammies, was shot dead by the Riot Police.
Seron, as we knew him, had come from work that evening and I waited for him at our old house and we walked up together. The police shot and I said to him Ron we better get away from here because these people aren’t playing. He wasn’t aware of what had happened that day and I had advised him that should get out of the line of fire and we moved towards a block of flats.
I went into the first block of flats and he went into the next block. And misfortune would have it, he made the wrong choice and he went into the direction of the policemen. Accordingly I couldn’t see the - according to eye witnesses, because I didn’t see it myself, a certain Fuad Arnold - I saw him standing on the steps, so he had a much better view of what happened.
He said Ron was in the bathroom, they shouted for him to come out whereupon he responded yes sir I’m coming out and he put his hands up in the air. And while his hands were in the air, according to the eye witness, a certain Constable van Zyl shot him at close range with a shotgun. And the impacted was great that his heart, longs and liver were penetrated by the bullets.
When I came to the bathroom - this is the bathroom next door, when I came out of the bathroom next door - they were dragging him out like an animal. And another policeman in camouflage shouted to me - quite a few of the other policemen were congratulating him oh that was an excellent shot and congratulations.
For me it’s extremely difficult to relive these events but to a certain extent one lives with feeling of guilt. You say to yourself that if I had made the right choice, you know, then this wouldn’t have happened. And you constantly doubt your own judgment. And you live in doubt thinking shouldn’t I have gone the other way instead. It’s very difficult to judge yourself with hand sight because the matter was heard at the court in Stellenbosch.
The Magistrate’s verdict then was that it was a very difficult situation and that no one is to blame - that the policemen acted in accordance with his duty and hence no one was to blame for the incident.
For us it was a very difficult time because my father - he and my father - were breadwinners at home at that stage and just before his shooting my father was declared terminally ill due to cancer. My father also passed away not to long thereafter and I was a student at that stage and it was probably a difficult time for all of us in South Africa and one doesn’t want to sort of eventuate your own situation but it just wasn’t easy. I has to sacrifice my bursary money to educate my younger brother.
The most difficult part is probably that we were a big family and when my mother set the table in the evening she would sub-continuously prepare Ron’s place at the table and when somebody said to her but Ron is not with us any longer she would shed these silent tears.
And we always teased her very gently because we were always very fair in our community and Ron was also - always as dark as my father and we always teased her very lightheartedly about her favoring Ron, because he looked like my father.
And she did not live much longer thereafter and she also passed away and fortunately I was working at the time and could take care of my younger brothers and sisters, but I don’t think that my mother could handle the constant harassment and detention of my younger brothers and I don’t know if it’s due to a feeling of guild but we were always terrorized by the safety - the security police and they would come to our house at any part of the night and lock up any one of us at random.
And in that regard we got a lot of support from the Reverent, Dr Allen Boesak, and the community at large and they kept us going and we were privileged in that the incident drew us closer together as a family. But suppose the vacuum will always be there and I’ll always ask myself did I make the right chose, shouldn’t we have waited a bit longer instead, and so on.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you very much, Mr Carollisen that you - for having told us this apparently painful story. Could I just ask - put a few questions to you just for the sake of clarity on the situation. Your brother was working at that stage, is that right?
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes.
ADV POTGIETER
Where was he working?
MR CAROLLISEN
He was a carpenter by trade, he was actually in his finale year of apprenticeship as a carpenter, so he was going to take employment in Cape Town.
ADV POTGIETER
So on that day he was from work and he was on his way home, from work when the shooting incident took place?
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes.
ADV POTGIETER
How old was he when the incident took place in 1976?
MR CAROLLISEN
He was 23 years old.
ADV POTGIETER
23 years old and were there any - apart from yourself you had two more brothers. Are you then four brothers all together?
MR CAROLLISEN
As I said we were a large family. There was one older brother who was married already and then there were two younger brothers at home and a sister.
ADV POTGIETER
So was Ron the oldest child who was still at home?
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes.
ADV POTGIETER
And you say that at the time he was - he was the breadwinner in the family?
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes, mainly because as I said my father had been declared terminally ill and he could not work anymore. And my mother had a heart problem and hence it was very difficult. Ron - I owe a lot of thank to Ron because he made it possible for me to study to a certain extent.
ADV POTGIETER
What do you do today?
MR CAROLLISEN
I am a teacher, that is my profession.
ADV POTGIETER
And what about the other children, are they also more or less on - in a good way?
MR CAROLLISEN
I thank the Lord that they can take care of themselves today because they had so much potential - they could have done so much more but as I said Ron’s death affected their lives permanently. Instead of concentrating on their academic lives they were drawn to the - to the struggle. Without reserve, so much so that they would even be locked up - taken out of there classrooms and detained and they couldn’t sleep at home because as I said. Afterwards there was no point in even locking the door.
We would give the police free access because all they would do was they would come and bang down our doors and knock on our windows and we just decided that it - there was no point.
ADV POTGIETER
And that was the situation with your other brothers, how involved was Ron in politics?
MR CAROLLISEN
It’s difficult to say that he was not involved because I - the Bible probably teaches you - as I said we come from a very religious family and we learned to always speak out against injustice and if it was wrong then it was probably - that was probably just the case.
ADV POTGIETER
With regards to the incident itself - the shooting incident, I - do I understand you correctly in saying that you and Ron were looking for shelter from the shooting?
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes, at the time there was a lot of shooting going on and I said to Ron:
My brother these people are not playing games here today. They are shooting for real. Let us - let us get out of the way.
And at that stage the shooting was taking between 25 and 50 meters ahead of us in the direction in which we were going. And I still said to him:
Come let us go threw the flats.
ADV POTGIETER
And you went in to one flat and he went in to another, but the flat into which he went belonged to a policeman?
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes, that was his unfortunate chose.
ADV POTGIETER
And the person in that flat then called another policeman?
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes
ADV POTGIETER
And he was then shot dead in that house in the bathroom?
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes, that’s correct.
ADV POTGIETER
And if I understand your evidence correctly you were on your way home. You were not involve in any illegal activity at the time?
MR CAROLLISEN
As I said we were people who - who’s father was very strict with regards to discipline. We would eat strictly at 6 o’clock - not a minute later and we were on our way home to have supper, but unfortunately we couldn’t get threw. As I said his train would arrive at Stellenbosch at approximately 6 o’clock and I think - I’m not to sure but I think on that day - his train arrived just before 6 o’clock or it could have been a bit later.
And the shooting was - was taking place there. I had - it’s very difficult to understand, in my opinion there was so many ways of getting him out of that bathroom. I mean at that time I felt - it felt as though tear gas was never going to stop in South Africa, you know they could have thrown tear gas into the bathroom for all we know. Because according to Fuad Arnold’s evidence he said:
Yes sir, I am coming out please do not shoot.
And still he shot and you know what brakes my heart was the joy - the joy and the congratulations that the police were giving each other - giving the policeman that shot him. It’s not human to behave in such a fashion, then appears if he had locked himself up in the bathroom and when the policeman spoke to him, he open the bathroom again. And that was when he was shot.
ADV POTGIETER
So one can assume that he was unarmed, he did not have any knifes or any weapons on him at the time?
MR CAROLLISEN
No, as I said Ron … END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B… [indistinct] our old house because he said why should I have to carry this heavy bag all the way up, I’m passing here tomorrow morning anyway I might just well come and fetch it on my way.
ADV POTGIETER
And on - at the time of the [indistinct] what explanation did this Van Zyl give for the shooting, why did say why did he shoot him?
MR CAROLLISEN
His evidence was to the effect that Ron struggled with him and tried to overpower him and Ron was to strong for him. And that was impossible because Ron was tinier than I - he was smaller than I am and he was a big person - he was far bigger than ...[intervention]
ADV POTGIETER
So he alleged that he was doing it in self defense?
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes, he said that he was - he shot out of necessity.
ADV POTGIETER
And the court found that he could not be held responsible for the death of Ron?
MR CAROLLISEN
The court found that no one is responsible - no one can be blamed for Ron’s death.
ADV POTGIETER
Did the family try and institute a civil claim or try and consult with an attorney?
MR CAROLLISEN
No, as I said my father was terminally ill at that stage and it - our funds dried up so to speak. I was a student and I think that the illness effected my father, it drained him of all his energy. He did not have the willpower or the energy to go forth with this.
ADV POTGIETER
Mr Carollisen just lastly in conclusion. There are certain requests that you would like to put to this Commission.
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes, one I don’t know if it’s such a bid question but I would like a tombstone on his grave and next to me is Sandy Messias who was pregnant with Ron’s child at that stage and she had a son. If the Commission could assist in any way with either his studies or anything else it would mean a lot to me, mainly because I still bear the guilt because Ron’s son is there but we don’t have the funds to take care of him.
It’s impossible to forget Ron’s son because Ron was a very lovable person and just a way of letting him know that his father did not die in vain. That we can sit here today and search for the truth.
ADV POTGIETER
Are there any other requests?
MR CAROLLISEN
No.
ADV POTGIETER
What is the situation with regards to the media?
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes, this is still one of the things that hurts me the most. We have the most influential media which you can think of and it was applied wrongly back then. I think that there was one particular newspaper that own us a the Carollisen family an explanation and - or an apology and that is the Burger which named my brother a trouble maker and I cannot see how the Burger could have had the audacity to call my brother a trouble maker.
ADV POTGIETER
In which context was that put because they never called the actual trouble makers here in South Africa such, they actually praised those people so the Burger published a report after the incident where the labeled your brother a trouble maker?
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes, that’s correct.
ADV POTGIETER
And was that given as the explanation as to why he was shot?
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes, and I feel that if we would like a healthy South Africa, then we should have a healthy media. A media which firmly searches for the truth and not gives its own interpretation of what it believes the truth to be. And I feel that the Burger owes our family an apology.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you very much Mr Carollisen. I am going to ask you to move the microphone over to Ms Messias and then we will hear what she has to say, if she would like to add anything.
We have listened to these circumstances to what have happened. We’ve also listened and heard that you were pregnant when all this had happened, this - you were with Ron’s child. Would you like to tell us how this incident effected you and the child.
MS MESSIAS
During this incident I was in my last month of pregnancy and Ronny were going to come to us that evening. At that specific stage he said I’ll see you between 7 and half past 7. Unfortunately my father answered the telephone and they said they wanted to talk to him and I said it’s strange why do they want to speak to my father. And my mother said she’ll take the telephone and they said no they specifically want to talk to my father.
And they said Ronny have been shot and I can’t tell you how it felt at that stage. You just suddenly feel that he had to be here now, I was so shocked. The baby was to be born that same month, I had to take tablets, I had to take medicine. Some times you felt I didn’t want to live any more and then I thought think about this child.
Ronny was killed on the 8th , he was buried on the 14th and on the 13th the child was born. After the child’s birth I had to leave the hospital the day right after the birth. This child grew up with my mother and my father’s assistance.
Also I wanted to thank Ronny and for the brothers and some times he came from school and said why don’t I have a father and the children would ask where’s your father and he said no my father had been shot. And I said one day you will understand, not now but one day. And everybody said that he - something - all this is going to influence him a lot. He is slow at learning at school and - but it is important for me to keep him in the right way, but he stayed at school in he is in Std 8.
ADV POTGIETER
What is his name?
MS MESSIAS
His name is also Ronald.
ADV POTGIETER
Is there anything else you which to add, is that all you want to say? Thank you very much, thank you very much Mr Carollisen, I have no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you very much, Rev Xundu, thank ...[intervention]
REV XUNDU
[indistinct] Richard, if you remember the name of the Magistrate who was presiding.
MR CAROLLISEN
I can’t remember now but I do have it on file somewhere.
REV XUNDU
Also do you know who owned the flat into which your brother [indistinct]
MR CAROLLISEN
It was a municipal - the flat belonged to the municipality but ...[intervention]
REV XUNDU
Do you know who rented the flat?
MR CAROLLISEN
It was a Constable Isaacks.
REV XUNDU
Who actually called the police, was it the wife of - who called the police?
MR CAROLLISEN
His mother, in fact that his - his wife left him afterwards because of the incident. I think it was because of the incident and she was willing to testify here and give us the whole story because she knew what happened -exactly what happened, but unfortunately she’s under psychiatric treatment - psychiatric treatment.
REV XUNDU
Where is Van Zyl now, do you know?
MR CAROLLISEN
Sorry.
REV XUNDU
Where is Van Zyl now?
MR CAROLLISEN
I don’t know where Mr Van Zyl is - Constable Van Zyl is.
CHAIRPERSON
Pumla Gobodo
MS GOBODO
Thank you Chairperson, Sandra and Richard it’s been about 20 years. It must have been very difficult for both of you to go threw the trauma of the death of your boyfriend and your brother.
And I want to address my questions to Richard, on the day that your brother died you were with him?
MR CAROLLISEN
Yes.
MS GOBODO
Were you often with your brother in the evening?
MR CAROLLISEN
Ja, it - for me - maybe it was more difficult for me because he was like a for - many people I can still remember some incidents were shopkeepers would call us in and tell us, give us some sweets because they thought we were twins. In actual fact it was a nice gave for us to play because people believed that we were twins.
MS GOBODO
So you were also friends with your brother?
MR CAROLLISEN
Ja, we were - we were inseparable, we were always together.
MS GOBODO
Richard, I just want you to tell us a little bit about how you remember the death of your brother.
MR CAROLLISEN
It’s difficult to - it’s so hard to explain but we used to share a room, we played
rugby, he was - we were both - we played center together. Now suddenly I had - I gave up rugby because we - we had such good understanding.
There’s nobody to share with in actual fact we - we had such big plans. I would study Comma’s and he would go into the building industry and then we would start our own business. All those dreams were shattered and as I’ve said before what hurts most I somehow I could manage the pain but to see my mom suffer was - she was a wonderful women and to see her suffer was pain all the way.
MS GOBODO
And what you’ve told us also is how much your - your own guilt has affected you and I just want to say that that has been seen to happen when people observe the death of someone they’re very close too.
A sense of holding yourself responsible for it when you are not responsible for it, in fact, but it’s just a struggle to deal with the trauma yourself. I just want to mention that to you that you obviously are struggling and you have been struggling for all this 20 years to deal with being at the spot where your brother died.
MR CAROLLISEN
Ja, I don’t think people will realize how - how difficult it was for me to think maybe I’ve made the wrong dissuasion, maybe we should have walked into the line of fire and maybe it would have worked out better. Why did I - why didn’t I pull him with into the flat I was going into. Why did - there’s so many why’s, it difficult to answer.
MS GOBODO
It’s very difficult in - and I think it’s shows how hard it still is for you to deal with the loss of your brother, thank you Richard.
MR CAROLLISEN
Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you very much. It is very difficult to find words to comfort you because in English to says, but it seems as if it is so simple. It’s easy to say we shall comfort you and you think oh it’s just hollow words because it’s not something you feel, but I hope that while you were telling your story, you have realized that you are in the midst of a audience who are very sympathetic and they feel for what you have suffered.
The story is to a grate deal unbelievable. When you say there he was in the bathroom, he came out, his hands were in the air and then still he was shot. There are many people who will say it cannot be the truth and we will have to establish what had happened exactly. And to establish why - now why would you come here and tell lie and we wish to say to you that we feel with you.
We are very sorry for that incident and we will try our utmost best to see how we can for fill your requests. And when you think about your mother and your father and now also a young son and especially when they ask him where - what had happened to his father. You must know that we will try our utmost best to see what we can do.
We will see what we can do to commemorate your brother - to provide a tombstone and we hope that the newspaper will hear what you have said - they have ears - and we will see and wait to see what they will do. And we hope, I mean , that the fact that you have come here and spoken in this forum can be a thing that helps a little bit in lightning this burden which Pumla has spoken about. That you have spoken now in the open, thank you.
