MR PRIOR: Chairperson, the next applicant is number 11, Gerhardus Fourie, he is being called.
GERHARDUS D FOURIE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, the application of this applicant is on page 187 up to 205 and also 214 to 223.
Thank you Chairperson. Mr Fourie, you together with your co-applicants were prosecuted in the Supreme Court in the Witwatersrand Local Division and you were charged with murder, etc, and you were found guilty on charges of murder, attempted murder, damage of property and the possession of explosives which came about because of pipe bomb explosions in Randfontein, Westonaria and Pretoria?
MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And you have been given a prison service of 21 years effectively and this was given to you by Judge Flemming?
MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, you were called up to Ventersdorp, can you tell the Committee what was your behaviour once you have received those call up instructions?
MR FOURIE: Yes, Chairperson. We were at a meeting ...[intervention]
MR PRINSLOO: Not that part, what did you do after you received the call up instructions with regards to your family, what you took with you, etc?
MR FOURIE: After the meeting in February, I went back to my house and I informed my wife that we must now
go up to Ventersdorp, that we are going to a Volkstaat and we were also informed that the war would now start and the elections were going to be stopped, and we would not allow the elections to happen because the ANC who is the majority would not admit us or give us the right to have a Volkstaat if these elections carried on.
I emptied my house, I bought a caravan as they told us to do. I think they used the word affirmative action, and what I could put into this caravan, I did and we left.
MR PRINSLOO: Do you have children?
MR FOURIE: I have three sons who were at school. I took them out of the school, because I believed as they told us that this Volkstaat would become a reality and this is what I told my family. They trusted me.
MR PRINSLOO: And your children, would they go to school in the Volkstaat?
MR PRINSLOO: At that stage, did you have a job?
MR FOURIE: Yes, I worked as a barman.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you resign from that job or what happened?
MR FOURIE: I resigned, I worked a last shift because they told us that we already have jobs in the Volkstaat.
MR PRINSLOO: What job would you have received in the Volkstaat?
MR FOURIE: I would have been part of the Police in the area where I would have stayed, which was Klerksdorp.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, the Sunday evening the 24th of April 1994 at the game farm, can you tell the Committee how was the instruction given to you and can you just elaborate on that?
MR FOURIE: I was doing guard duty from eight o'clock that evening until twelve midnight. I returned and Commandant Du Plessis approached me. He informed me that pipe bombs were demonstrated and people were tasked to go out and explode these pipe bombs.
I received instructions from Commandant Du Plessis to accompany Steyn and with the task they were supposed to do, because he told me there is no longer time and they conveyed to me that the elections had to be stopped.
I just want to bring it to your attention that before we went there, they brought this impression home with us that this election should not continue, should not be held and therefore I trusted them, I trusted these leaders, I believed in them.
It is the leaders who told us this and I knew that there was no longer time, we were going to stop the election, that was my intention and I identified myself with that, and that is how I felt, that is what we are going to do in order to enforce the Volkstaat and to stop the election.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Tell me Mr Fourie, for about 20 years the AWB existed and they did not get a Volkstaat from the Nationalists?
MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Why wasn't there an attempt in the National Party's time to prevent the elections then or to interfere with them?
MR FOURIE: Since I've been to the Defence Force, I was 17 years old then, and that is the way we were brought up and the Army made me aware of politics. What the ANC/SACP alliance and the PAC, they told me what they were. That time we were taught that these people wanted to make the country ungovernable and to cause violence in this country.
The history of our ancestry bound me to the fact that I would give my life for the security of this country and as well as all the other nations in this country, to protect them.
MR FOURIE: This is the Defence Force. I believed and I was proud of the fact that I would protect the people of this country. Then I left the Defence Force.
I joined the HNP and then I had to deal more with politics and I knew that they broke away from the National Party because the National Party was deviating from the principles of Dr Verwoerd.
At that time we were told that with these deviations of the National Party we would loose everything that we have inherited from our ancestry and in 1985 I joined the AWB. I saw them as a resistance movement, people who would prevent the political party who was governing, to prevent them from giving our country to the ANC/SACP alliance.
I supported this and I trusted in these people because they spoke as the former Defence Force spoke. In reality we were indoctrinated, what do they call it, we were brain washed, even though I believed in this.
Then it happened in 1990, I became a Depot Manager at Transnet. I just want to tell you - yes, it is correct, it is all written there.
CHAIRPERSON: My question is really, you wanted to protect these nations as you said, but this struggle of which you are speaking, the reasons for the struggle came about a long time ago, not in 1990. You wanted a Volkstaat before 1990?
MR FOURIE: That is correct, then they already spoke about this.
CHAIRPERSON: In 1976 you say in paragraph 5, you realised that the National Party was busy selling out the volk?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that is when I was part of the HNP, then I realised this.
CHAIRPERSON: At that stage, why didn't you wage a war then?
MR FOURIE: The AWB's principles said that there would be three phases. First they would propagate things, then the government of the day would be undermined, and the third phase was that if he didn't get the Volkstaat, then they would make a guerilla war.
CHAIRPERSON: And the third phase started in 1994?
MR FOURIE: That is correct. Before that, at all their meetings and in the media of the CP, Ferdi Hartzenberg - this is what they conveyed to us, that there would be a war. With the referendum, they were still saying that two million people are not with the National Party and this two million people would not stand back and let the elections take place because the government is going to hand us over to the ANC/SACP alliance.
They are the majority and when they begin to govern, there would never be a volkstaat because they do not acknowledge us and our own land.
ADV BOSMAN: Can you tell us a little bit more about the undermining phase? When did this start and what was the nature of this undermining?
MR FOURIE: The nature of this undermining government was when these people formed an alliance, Afrikaner Volksfront, the AWB, the CP and they left CODESA together with the Inkatha Freedom Party as well as the Ciskei and the President of Bophuthatswana.
That is where the undermining of the government started.
ADV BOSMAN: Can you just describe some of the specific actions with regards to this undermining?
MR FOURIE: The undermining would be that the City Council, the right wing City Councils were in charge of the CP or the CP were in charge of them, they would have made sure that the people in these City Councils who stood together with us and when the freedom of the town were given to the AWB, that from there, there would be further action against the government of the day.
ADV BOSMAN: Can you mention any of these actions?
MR FOURIE: For example at the freedom of the towns, when we were given that, when the AWB received the freedom of the towns, they said that the commando's, the then commando's of the AWB would make sure that these elections do not continue and they would also protect these people.
Then they informed us of the planning of Gen Viljoen and the other Generals, Groenewald and they also held meetings where they said how we would protect these towns against what was going to happen.
I also believed in that, because before the elections if we look at the media and the PAC, they declared war against us when they said this country does not belong to us and we don't have any say in this country, kill the Boer, kill the farmer, one settler, one bullet.
ADV BOSMAN: What actions are you referring to? (Speaker's microphone not on)
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, after Du Plessis gave you an instruction, what happened then, what did you do?
MR FOURIE: I went inside because the people were in the hall. I walked to Commandant Abe Fourie and I said to him I am going to Pretoria together with Nel and Peet Steyn and he asked me do you want to go and I said yes, I received an instruction to accompany them, to drive with them.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you know why you were going to Pretoria?
MR FOURIE: Yes, I was told about the pipe bombs that we have to go and set off.
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not refuse to go with them?
MR FOURIE: Chairperson, the whole purpose why we moved up there was quite evident, we wanted to stop the election and we wanted to enforce a Volkstaat. I believed in this because these were the plans that were made. Gen Constand Viljoen also made the plans because he said that they planned on a violent cessation of the Volkstaat.
CHAIRPERSON: Was this during the elections?
MR FOURIE: Yes, the elections should not have taken place.
CHAIRPERSON: And that was Constand Viljoen's attitude also according to you?
MR FOURIE: Yes, and all the right wing parties and the AWB purposes were to stop the elections.
CHAIRPERSON: How old was that idea, when was this decided that you are going to stop the election?
MR FOURIE: The war talk came about a long time before that, and also Trim Park, at that meeting Brig Chris van der Heever came after the closed meeting, and told us that Gen Etzebeth addressed this meeting and he is conveying to us that the people are now moving up, now it is war and this election must be stopped. That was where this whole thing was finally decided.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, Mr Abe Fourie who you referred to, he is a co-applicant and is he your brother?
MR PRINSLOO: Jaco Nel, was he your junior in rank?
MR FOURIE: No, he was the Captain and me and Peet Steyn were two Lieutenants.
MR PRINSLOO: So you were his subordinate?
MR PRINSLOO: And the next day did you leave with Jaco Nel and Peet Steyn?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct the next morning, we left very early.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you go to Pretoria?
CHAIRPERSON: With what idea, what would have been the target?
MR FOURIE: I was told that taxi ranks would be the target.
ADV GCABASHE: Just a short question, you were told by who, just complete that, because you have now spoken to Du Plessis and Fourie. Who told you about the targets?
MR FOURIE: Commandant Du Plessis gave me the instruction, after guard duty. I only informed Abe Fourie that I was leaving with Steyn and Nel to Pretoria.
He said, do you want to go with and I said I received an instruction, and that was the way it was accepted.
ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but specifically the target, who spoke about the target?
MR FOURIE: Commandant Du Plessis told me that the target was to be taxi ranks.
MR PRINSLOO: You then went to Pretoria, and what happened there?
MR FOURIE: The targets - we did some reconnaissance, there was a lot of Police presence, we could not complete our task there. When we went to other places, I do not know Pretoria very well, I do not know it at all.
Then he told us that we were going to friends he knew and we went to this flat. He introduced us - I still do not know their names, I have forgotten it during this period - and these people told us that later that day, approximately one o'clock that afternoon, they are going to the resort. AWB people gathered there as well as the Wen Kommando for protection of the wives and children.
He then talked with them a bit more and Peet Steyn and myself drank coffee. He talked with these women or had a conversation with them. Then later that day, we went to town where we made forged number plates in order for them not to identify us. We looked at the identical car, the same colour and model. As Mr Peet Steyn gave evidence, he needed shoes and we got some food because we needed it.
We then went back to where we picked up the number plates. From there we went to the flat, I cannot really remember the time, but it did happen like that. Then they gave him the key in order for us to stay there until we had to go. The evening we drove to see if we could place this bomb or detonate this bomb somewhere.
The places were still not safe, there were a lot of Police in the streets. With this, while we were driving, he identified this building, it was a corner cafe and he said we are going to detonate the bomb here. We agreed with him because I believed that this will have the same effect as if we planted it at the taxi rank.
The purpose of this bomb, was I believed, was they had to be scared, we wanted to create fear and they had to realise that this election would not take place, they mustn't go and vote. The instruction was given to Peet Steyn by Jaco Nel to ignite the fuse and to throw the bomb.
Jaco Nel did light it, the fuse, the door was opened. When the vehicle was almost completely at a stop ...[intervention]
MR PRINSLOO: You said Jaco Nel?
MR FOURIE: I am sorry Peet Steyn, Jaco Nel gave Peet Steyn the instruction to light the fuse and then Peet Steyn did that, and threw the bomb.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you do, what was your contribution in throwing this bomb?
MR FOURIE: I agreed when the place was identified.
CHAIRPERSON: That did not help in throwing the bomb?
MR FOURIE: I identified myself with that.
CHAIRPERSON: My question is did you do anything, did you build the bomb?
MR FOURIE: No, Mr Chairperson.
MR FOURIE: No, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Nothing, you just drove with them?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that is true, but the purpose was to stop the elections.
CHAIRPERSON: But what would you have done?
MR FOURIE: If I received the instruction, I would have done it Mr Chairperson because that is what we believed in.
ADV BOSMAN: What did you foresee would be the function Mr Fourie, why did you have to go with? One person was needed to drive the vehicle and one was needed to detonate the bomb, what was your function?
MR FOURIE: The way I saw it, the purpose was to detonate the bomb, to create fear, to prevent them to go and vote. But I believe I was there because they chose three for the protection, or if we were in any situation where I believe we had to fight to get out of there, if we were caught, because you will not be caught.
ADV GCABASHE: Again, I might not have heard you, I might not have heard you properly, but what I wrote down a couple of minutes ago was in answer to why you didn't do anything, you said something like if I got the instruction, I would have done it. Did I get that wrong?
MR FOURIE: That is correct Mr Chairperson.
ADV GCABASHE: But you told us you did get the instruction, so why are you saying if I got the instruction, I would have done it? Can you just explain that to me?
MR FOURIE: That what I explained now, if Mr Jaco Nel gave me the instruction and I was in the position to do it, that is now in the back of the vehicle, I would have done it myself.
MR MALAN: You say if you had received the instruction, I thought I understood that that was after the lighting of the fuse and the throwing of the bomb, are you saying that if you got the instruction to light the fuse, you would have done it? If you got the instruction to throw the bomb, you would have done it?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct. That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, did you foresee when that bomb was thrown, that people would be killed?
MR FOURIE: I knew that people would be killed.
MR PRINSLOO: The question is did you foresaw this?
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, did you identify yourself with the instruction that was given and that Steyn will throw the bomb in the direction where people will be killed?
MR FOURIE: Yes, I did identify myself.
MR PRINSLOO: And that is also where you were found guilty, that is the murder of those people?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: And after this bomb was thrown by Peet Steyn, what did you do?
MR FOURIE: After this bomb was thrown, Mr Nel then said we have to move away and he already figured out the route, but when we drove away, this man cracked up.
Where I sat next to him, it didn't seem as he was even able to drive this motor car, it was as if he had a nervous break down, he wasn't in control of himself, he drove in a one way road.
He almost drove into a police van. He was out of himself and the way I looked at him, I saw that he isn't the person who was part of this instruction, he wasn't the same person. He was not himself. We then left there and because he mentioned the road blocks on the road or the way we had to go with the road blocks, he did not want to go there because we were scared at that stage and he agreed that we can be stopped and arrested at a road block and he will go around this holiday resort to these people.
But that afternoon I heard that he said that they will see him again. We then left and went there, we arrived there. They introduced us to the people, I cannot remember their surname, it was two blind men. One of the men's wives were with them, the children, there were two or three other women without the one blind man's wife.
We just greeted them and then Jaco Nel and I think the two women left and I also thought that it was because of the state in which he was. We had a conversation with these men, they played guitar, they sang and we discussed certain things where they said they were from the former Rhodesia and that is where they became blind because of explosions and they gathered there together with the AWB for the protection of these women and children that I talked earlier about.
I don't know how long it was, it was a few hours, I cannot really remember the time, then Jaco Nel appeared again and he said to us that we are going to drive back to the game farm. When we arrived at the game farm, it was approximately three o'clock the morning as he gave evidence, he was or Johan Smit shouted at him.
I did not involve myself because he had to give the feed back.
ADV GCABASHE: I was actually thinking about this over night, and it is a good thing you are here today, just - I was thinking about this, there is just a bit that I don't understand here, it is also from your colleagues' evidence, you left the resort at about two in the morning, three o'clock in the morning, two o'clock in the morning? Clear that up for me?
MR FOURIE: Yes, it was approximately two o'clock because we arrived at three o'clock at the game farm.
ADV GCABASHE: You arrived at three o'clock at the game farm and the impression I have is that you walked straight into a meeting. This can't be, so can you just help me with that?
MR FOURIE: No, I do not know anything about a meeting that morning. All that I know is that when we arrived there, Johan Smit as he said, he was shouted at and I do not want to use those words again, and that we will leave the next morning, but they were very angry. I then went to bed.
ADV GCABASHE: Where did the confrontation with Smit take place, that is really where I am lost?
MR FOURIE: It was when we walked into the building, Johan Smit, he did not talk, but shouted where the hell are you coming from now?
There wasn't really a confrontation, it was just the way in which he put it that he was dissatisfied because we arrived so late. I did not involve myself with that discussion because Jaco Nel was in charge of this mission, and he was the mission and I left it to him to explain what happened.
ADV GCABASHE: So Smit wasn't sleeping, he was sitting in some building at three o'clock in the morning?
MR FOURIE: Smit did not sleep, because when we walked through the doors where the people were sleeping, he stood, he was standing there.
ADV GCABASHE: Who else was in this building, I had the impression it was a public discussion or shouting at, if you want to call it that?
MR FOURIE: That is true. The people who slept there, they were all in the building, that is where we slept so it was a public discussion, or in public.
ADV GCABASHE: Okay, that has helped, thank you.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, the place that the honourable Member just asked you about, what place was this?
MR FOURIE: It was at the game farm?
MR FOURIE: Yes, it was a big hall with toilet facilities, it was an organised place.
MR PRINSLOO: So this place where Major Smit was, where was he, he was in the hall?
MR FOURIE: Yes, where the people slept, yes that is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: You now arrived at the game farm, Major Smit shouted at Jaco Nel.
MR PRINSLOO: And what happened then, did you remain there?
MR FOURIE: I went to go and sleep and they said that same morning we would leave.
MR PRINSLOO: And did you leave that same morning?
MR FOURIE: Yes, we left for the shooting range.
MR PRINSLOO: That was close to Rustenburg?
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, when you acted on that specific day during that period, did you do it for yourself or why did you do it?
MR FOURIE: This deed was done on behalf of the AWB. This was the instructions that we received, so it was on behalf of the AWB that I committed these deeds.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, after all that has happened today, how do you feel about your action where you took the lives of people and injured other people?
MR FOURIE: During that time I believed that it was right, today I see and realise that it was not right to kill innocent people and to injure them, because there are better solutions.
The way I feel now, I would like to convey my condolences and sympathy with all those victims of all the explosions, not just mine, but of all of them. I am sorry that they were victims for the purpose that we wanted to reach, but in that situation I believe you are not yourself.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, your statement as it was presented to this honourable Commission, do you confirm that?
MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO: .
CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt, have you got any questions?
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT: .
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman, have you got any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, just one or two, not many. Mr Fourie, maybe you want to put the earphones on.
Mr Fourie, amongst the AWB members that you knew from your time as a member of the AWB, did any of those members ever express a deep hatred for black people?
MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairman, with honesty I can say there was never hate that I saw. These people I could see believed the way I did, that there is a purpose to achieve. But of hatred I cannot talk.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there a specific word to describe black people in the circles of the AWB?
MR FOURIE: Yes, certain utterances were made by for example the leader of the AWB. There was certain utterances made, but there were the person asked me that question, there where we were, I could not see hatred, no I did not see hatred.
CHAIRPERSON: These utterances or expressions that were used, what was that?
MR FOURIE: At previous meeting?
MR FOURIE: They would say board were put up of kaffirs and what you heard here.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we understand each other. What type of words were used in the circle of the AWB to describe black people in general? If you referred to black people, was there a specific description that was given or words that were used?
MR FOURIE: Where they talked about the ANC and the SACP, they talked about the ANC and they talked about the NP government, that were the words as I heard it. I cannot say the other words, because then I would lie.
MR MALAN: Mr Fourie, I don't know if you do not understand the question, when you spoke about black people at certain times, amongst the people in the AWB, did they refer to them as people with dark skins or did they talk about them as black people or bantu, how were they referred to?
Were they referred to in any negative terms, did they talk nicely about them?
MR FOURIE: There was never nice talk about them, because they were the enemy. They spoke about the ANC and a lot of them spoke about kaffirs, but the discussions always centred on the ANC. That is how they expressed it.
CHAIRPERSON: And the people who belonged to the IFP, what about them?
MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie, I am not quite sure of your evidence. When the pipe bomb was placed at the cafe ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman, there was a dispute as to whether it was placed or thrown.
MR LANDMAN: Maybe I can be even more general than that, at the time that the pipe bomb exploded, was your intention to dissuade people to go and vote so that when the voting opened later that week, there would simply be no voters at the voting poll, at the polling booths?
MR FOURIE: It was to dissuade the people, to discourage them from going to vote.
MR LANDMAN: So you wanted to create a situation where everybody stayed at home, rather than went out to vote on the appointed day?
MR LANDMAN: So the effect of your bombing as I understand it, would only be felt on the first polling day when one would then see that nobody had gone to vote?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that was the purpose to disrupt these elections. That is how I understood it, there shouldn't be an election despite anything. That was how the instructions were given. The elections must not take place.
MR LANDMAN: And the election was not to take place because nobody would go to vote, is that - do I understand it correctly?
MR FOURIE: That is also the way I understood it, that is correct Chairperson.
MR LANDMAN: So the bombs did not go off in order to dissuade the government not to hold the election?
MR FOURIE: The government as well yes, the government was part of the purpose, we wanted to stop them.
MR LANDMAN: You see that is what I don't understand. If you were trying to stop people from going to the polling booths on the first day of the election, then you would only know whether or not you would succeed on the first day of polling, isn't that correct?
MR FOURIE: What happened on the first day, I don't know about that. I do not know anything about the elections. I believed it was going to be stopped, because they said that the people all over the country, would boycott this thing.
I did not really concentrate on us, I did not think it was only us, I believed what they said, the whole nation would rise up and stop this. So, how it actually went at the elections, I do not know.
MR LANDMAN: I am trying to understand your motivation, are you saying that you planted, the bombs went off in order to stop people from gong to vote or did the bombs go off in order to persuade the government to cancel the elections?
MR FOURIE: That is what I said, it was to discourage the people from voting, and to stop the government from holding the elections. They had to cancel it or postpone it.
CHAIRPERSON: And you believed that what the AWB did that day, there was a good chance to get these results?
MR FOURIE: Sorry Chairperson, could you please repeat, I took the earphones off while you were speaking.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe at that time that what the AWB did, would have positive results?
MR FOURIE: Yes, I believed that.
CHAIRPERSON: You would have caused fear amongst the people not to go to the voting polls and that the government would cancel the elections?
MR FOURIE: Yes, I believed that absolutely, that is the way I believed it. I had no doubt that it wouldn't work, because those leaders announced it like this.
It just had to happen like that, there was no doubt.
CHAIRPERSON: During that whole time, I think six bombs exploded?
MR FOURIE: Yes, I do not know the amount, but a lot of them went off.
CHAIRPERSON: Seven. The last one was at the airport? Only seven bombs in the whole country went off during that time?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that is what I learnt Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: How could that stop the elections?
MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, I was under the impression as they were talking that this was supposed to happen all over the country, in each province, this would have happened.
I did not know that it was only the seven. I believed what the people preached from that stage and what they informed us.
CHAIRPERSON: But it wouldn't have happened in Natal, because the Natalians were with you?
MR FOURIE: No, the group from Natal was only a Special Force Unit.
CHAIRPERSON: The important men from Natal are not in Natal, they are with you, so how could bombs have exploded in Natal?
MR FOURIE: No, I do not know who gave them instructions to go where we were. I believed that they were called up for a specific purpose.
CHAIRPERSON: At the time of the bomb, when you made this bomb explode, did you not see that this is not working?
CHAIRPERSON: Because nothing is happening in the rest of the country, except that the people are preparing themselves for elections?
MR FOURIE: Up until the point when the people were arrested at the shooting range, and when I was on the run, in June, I still believed that this was carry on, that these people are going to do it, because when we went to Ventersdorp, before we went back to the shooting range and we saw the people going to fetch food supplies, they still told us you will not be caught, this thing is going on.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, then I don't understand. How long were you on the run for?
CHAIRPERSON: But then the elections were over?
CHAIRPERSON: So how could you have thought that the stopping of the election is carrying on?
MR FOURIE: I believed that these people said that if the election did take place, then they are going to enforce a Volkstaat, there will be war. They will not accept it.
Ferdi Hartzenberg also said this on television, if the election do take place, they will not accept it, there will be war, and I believed them. That is why I went there in the first place, I believed what these people were telling me, with a handful of people you can't make a war.
CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that the point, you are telling us that the reason why you went to Ventersdorp, moved up there, was to create chaos in this country before the elections and you believed that the elections would be stopped or cancelled or whatever.
CHAIRPERSON: That did not work?
MR FOURIE: Yes, I must admit afterwards when I was on the run, yes, it didn't work.
CHAIRPERSON: And in June, how could you still have thought that this whole thing is still going to work?
MR FOURIE: While I was on the run, even in June, because we were in Ventersdorp that morning, and the leader of the AWB told us that we would not be caught, that the war is in progress, I still believed it at that moment when I was still there and also when I was still on the run.
While we were on the run, we ourselves, realised that we were deceived. The people whom we trusted, they lied to us. It was obvious that these people used us. It was in order for them to achieve their goals and then they misused us and they threw us away.
CHAIRPERSON: Please answer this question, can you give us a reason why you did not realise this just before the elections? You made the bombs explode according to your plans and I think by the time your bomb exploded, that was the fourth bomb, it doesn't matter how many bombs, but at that time, why did you not realise that you are being deceived and misused?
MR FOURIE: I speak for myself, I still believed. That is what I was Chairperson, I trusted in them, I believed that it was not the end, because they said they would not allow this to happen and it was going to be a war.
CHAIRPERSON: That is the point, you said and you believed that it would happen all over the country but did the fourth bomb only go off in Gauteng?
CHAIRPERSON: Did you not realise that it is not happening all over the country?
MR FOURIE: The elections took place on the 27th, that is when the people got arrested. That is the morning, we did not know about the arrests.
CHAIRPERSON: But did you not know that what is happening in Gauteng or in the Western Transvaal, did you not know that the same thing is not happening in the Eastern Cape or the Cape or Bloemfontein?
MR FOURIE: Before the people were arrested, I did not know that.
CHAIRPERSON: How did you monitor all of this to make sure that your tactics are actually bringing you some positive results?
MR FOURIE: What I am actually trying to tell you is that I cannot say that I did not know that it was not working, because I believed that there was no end to the war, the war would continue, people were going to fight.
That is why they moved up in such great numbers, and what they said about the commando's and the Defence Force. CHAIRPERSON: Right up until June ...[intervention]
MR FOURIE: No, let me just correct it. Up until when we were on the run, that man, when he told us do not get caught, the war is here, people are going to fight, I believed him that day, that was the 27th.
CHAIRPERSON: When did you stop believing him?
MR FOURIE: While I was on the run.
CHAIRPERSON: Round about which month?
MR FOURIE: May. In other words we are talking about weeks, a few weeks.
CHAIRPERSON: In between the time when you were starting to be on the run, from that time up until the time that you realised that you are being deceived, did you do anything in the furthering of this war?
MR FOURIE: No, while I was on the run, I didn't do anything.
CHAIRPERSON: Why not, because the war was on?
MR FOURIE: They told us we must run, they mustn't catch us.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see it as part of the war?
CHAIRPERSON: That is a good tactic.
MR FOURIE: And then we consulted and we decided to give ourselves up because we knew that these people were deceiving us. When we consulted with the Attorney with regards to give ourselves up, that is when they came to fetch us and we were locked up.
CHAIRPERSON: For me, were you on the run together or were you one by one, were you on your own?
MR FOURIE: We moved in groups.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know if any of the other people did something in those few weeks whilst they were still believing that the struggle is on, the war is in progress. Do you know if they did anything in the promotion of this war, in the furthering of this war?
MR FOURIE: No, that is why I feel we were deceived.
MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie, I would like you to turn to page 201 of the bundle, that is the amnesty application. That is page 9 of your ...[intervention]
MR LANDMAN: Paragraph 23 in the middle of the page, do you see it there? Major Smit told you that you and other people, that you must take food and clothing with you because you were going to protect the farmers in the area. Is that the order that was given to you?
MR FOURIE: The instruction was given in this way by Mr Smit.
MR LANDMAN: How would that order, how would protecting the farmers further your revolution that you wanted to participate in?
MR FOURIE: We had to protect the farmers because they said we would protecting the borders of the Volkstaat and at the same time, this instruction was part of the instructions given at the Trim Park and yes, this instruction was given to us.
This protection would also be part of the goals we wanted to achieve during the month of April.
MR LANDMAN: By the 24th of April, you already had the borders of your Volkstaat drawn, you knew what the borders were, or where the borders were?
MR FOURIE: I did not know exactly where the borders would be, I was only a soldier and I was willing to give my life for this volk, nation, but the borders I did not know about them. I believed the leaders knew about them, the ones that were actually dealing with that.
MR LANDMAN: In paragraph 24 in page, your page 9, page 201 of the bundle ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: In that area which you thought would be the Volkstaat, was there no voting booths there or voting polls?
MR FOURIE: Mr Chairman, where I was and the patrol I was on, I did not see any voting points. There must have been voting polls, but I didn't see any.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you drove through the wrong roads?
MR FOURIE: That must be the case, whilst we were patrolling, that must be the case.
MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie, was there not a polling booth in Ventersdorp?
MR FOURIE: I was not at Ventersdorp since we left, because we were on the game farm and we had no contact from the outside. I only did what I was told, that is to drive patrols, to protect the farmers, and that is what I saw.
Voting polls, I did not see them.
MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie, I am not asking you whether you saw them, did you not expect there to be a polling booth in Ventersdorp?
MR FOURIE: Surely there must have been one yes, I do not know, I did not think about it at that time. I did not think of those things at that time.
MR LANDMAN: If you have a look at paragraph 24 on page, your page 9, page 201 of the bundle, do you see it there?
MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie, is it not correct that nowhere in that paragraph do you say that Commandant Du Plessis gave you instructions to accompany Mr Steyn and Mr Nel on this mission?
MR FOURIE: That is correct, I did not write it down here, but I did make a note there that Du Plessis was the Commandant of Operations, and you are correct I did not write it in here.
MR LANDMAN: Is it not correct that it was your brother, Commandant Abe Fourie, who asked you to go with, who asked if you would go with Peet Steyn and Jaco Nel?
MR FOURIE: No, that is not correct. I told my brother that I, I told him that I am driving with Jaco Nel and Peet Steyn to Pretoria and he asked me, do I want to drive with them and I said yes, I've received an instruction to go with them.
MR LANDMAN: You see Mr Fourie, I want to put to you what the more important part of that evidence is, what Mr Du Plessis told you, the order that you were given, yet you don't even include this in paragraph 24.
Are you not protecting your brother?
MR FOURIE: No, it is not necessary to protect him, he was a Commandant, he was a Camp Commandant and the instructions were given by the Commandant of Operations. I do not think that he would have given such an instruction, he would have given it to everyone, but he did not give any instructions.
MR LANDMAN: When did you first see the pipe bombs?
MR FOURIE: The pipe bombs, I saw when I arrived there, people were still unloading pipe bombs out of this car, and I saw them, I saw the pipe bomb in Pretoria in the boot of the vehicle.
MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie, were you told what the target was?
MR FOURIE: As I have already testified, it was taxi ranks.
MR LANDMAN: Who told you that?
MR FOURIE: I have already answered that, Commandant Du Plessis.
MR LANDMAN: And were you told to go specifically to Pretoria?
MR FOURIE: That was my instruction, I must go with Jaco Nel and Peet Steyn to Pretoria.
MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie, did you realise at that stage that the election was a couple of days away?
MR FOURIE: That is correct yes.
MR LANDMAN: And that it was now urgent for you to ensure that these bombs went off in order that the election could be stopped?
MR FOURIE: That is correct yes.
MR LANDMAN: Yet, despite that you did all sorts of things that day and only placed the bomb, or the bomb only went off later that evening?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman, you have long exceeded your two or three questions.
MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, if I could find my second question. I can't find it ...[intervention]
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN: .
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, it just strikes me that although one can't preclude cross-examination, my understanding was because there were certain events where certain people had interests, cross-examination by those still interested in those events, would ask those questions.
I just place it on record in the interest of limiting, in saving time, we are entitled, the Committee is entitled to invoke Section 34(2) of the Act and to place reasonable limits with regard to the time allowed in respect of cross-examination.
A lot of these issues have been canvassed with the other nine applicants, it just seems to me that as ideas are coming up, questions are being asked with respect.
CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't mean that it has been canvassed with other witnesses, it can't be canvassed again. I think leave the Committee explore the application ...[intervention]
MR PRIOR: Well, I am on record. I have placed my view on record, thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kriel?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman, if I can just reply to Adv Prior, there was an objection when I partook in the cross-examination yesterday, my answer was why was I cross-examination and I said in search of the truth, and I think that is why we are all here sir.
We will limit ourselves, but that is the search, all the endeavour that we are here for.
Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Fourie, just a few aspects, you heard yesterday the evidence of Mr Jaco Nel and Mr Peet Steyn, is that correct?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.
MR KRIEL: With whose version do you identify yourself, Mr Nel or Mr Steyn's?
CHAIRPERSON: I think to be fair, it can be put to him that they are not completely opposed to each other, the two versions, there are just certain aspects.
INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone please.
MR KRIEL: ...[inaudible] Pretoria, can I put it as follows, with the events Monday in Pretoria, it was the version of Jaco Nel and the version of Peet Steyn, with which of these versions do you identify yourself with?
MR PRINSLOO: With respect Mr Chairperson, that evening in Pretoria, there were only a few differences in aspects, and he should indicate what aspects differ from Mr Fourie and Mr Nel's.
There are various aspects, especially the most important aspects.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you specifically ask the person then what the differences are? I know what you are trying, but you were now challenged to be specific.
MR KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, I wanted to limit my cross-examination, if the Committee then sees it as such.
According to Jaco Nel, he went to go and visit two blind friends in a flat in Pretoria and according to Peet Steyn, there were women present?
MR KRIEL: I accept there were women present.
MR KRIEL: Yes, that is correct and also later that day at the holiday resort.
MR FOURIE: That evening, yes, women were involved yes.
MR KRIEL: And you were at the hearing?
MR KRIEL: And there were talk about a relationship of Mr Jaco Nel?
MR KRIEL: Was it with one of the women who were there at the flat in Pretoria and also at the Hartebeespoort?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it the same women of the flat that was at the holiday resort?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.
MR KRIEL: Did it seem as it such an affair existed?
MR FOURIE: No, I cannot comment on that because you have to get the facts right, and I haven't got any facts to substantiate it. He was with her in a room when we arrived there at the holiday resort.
They left with both of the women. I don't know if there was an affair or relationship, I do not want to get involved in this.
MR KRIEL: Thank you. Early the morning you then left the holiday resort and went back to the game farm where you found Major Smit and it was obvious that this person was angry because you arrived so late?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.
MR KRIEL: The group in the hall was not the original group the way I understood it, because the people from Natal arrived?
MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson, that group was still the same. The people from Natal arrived there even before I left there that Monday.
MR KRIEL: Did you then leave for the shooting range?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.
MR KRIEL: And from the shooting range, with the approval, did you go to your wives?
MR FOURIE: Yes, and also to get food because we only had a week's food with us.
MR KRIEL: When did you realise that there is trouble, you have to flee?
MR FOURIE: The morning we went to Ventersdorp, we arrived there, the leader Mr Terreblanche said or told us that Nico Prinsloo and Leon van der Merwe were arrested.
MR KRIEL: What day was it when you arrived in Ventersdorp, and this is now with the leader?
MR FOURIE: This was the 27th of April 1994.
MR KRIEL: And did the leader give you a specific order: "Men, you must flee and you must keep on running"?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.
MR KRIEL: And those words or that instruction, you got directly from the leader himself?
MR FOURIE: The Commandant came out, Jan de Wet, yes, that is right, because he came out of the office, he had a discussion with them, he came out and shook our hands and said that the war begins only now.
MR KRIEL: What did Jan de Wet do there?
MR FOURIE: Ask the question again please?
MR KRIEL: Johan de Wet, what did he do there?
MR KRIEL: Jan de Wet, I am sorry.
MR FOURIE: How do you mean what did he do there?
MR KRIEL: What did he do there, I accept it was in Ventersdorp and I accept that he was at Head Office.
MR FOURIE: That is correct. He was with the group.
MR KRIEL: And there the leader specifically told you that you must flee, run?
MR FOURIE: That is correct, and we must not let them catch us.
MR KRIEL: You were then later arrested on whose farm?
MR FOURIE: It was a lawyer who we consulted with and to give ourselves up. It was in Britz, in the Britz area.
MR KRIEL: Did you then stay there from the end of April till the arrest, on that farm?
MR FOURIE: No, we moved around. I was even in Volksrust.
MR FOURIE: It was myself, Abe Fourie and Albie Briers.
MR KRIEL: Did you ever phone Head Office and asked them what was going on?
MR FOURIE: Albie Briers at various times made calls to find out what was going on, must we give ourselves up, what is the position.
He just gave feed back, or he said there were no problems, we were not being caught and things have not been going as it should, this is war and they said keep on saying, men, it is war, the worse is still coming.
MR KRIEL: But whom of the leadership gave you instruction to give yourself up?
MR FOURIE: That was Commandant Abie Fourie, myself and Albie Briers discussed this thing, because then we realised that these people misled us, nothing is happening.
The people deceived us. I gave everything up because you were influenced by these people and you are an adult. There is no other word, but we were deceived.
MR KRIEL: Jan de Wet, was he with you on the run?
MR FOURIE: Yes, he was also on the run and he was arrested only after us.
MR FOURIE: Koper Myburgh, I do not know when he was arrested.
MR KRIEL: Was he with you on the run?
MR KRIEL: And Cliffie Barnard?
MR FOURIE: No, not with us Mr Chairperson.
MR KRIEL: While you were together, did you at any stage decide to establish a new organisation in order to take this struggle further?
MR FOURIE: No sir, we were AWB members and in my heart I was true. I didn't have a double view, I was true and I believed in what I did and that is why I am here today.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a member?
CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a member of the AWB?
MR FOURIE: Since that time when I decided that I will give myself up, we were deceived.
CHAIRPERSON: During that time didn't you talk amongst yourselves to create or establish a new organisation?
CHAIRPERSON: Did you talk about it?
MR FOURIE: No, no, I didn't. We saw then that the people deceived us. From the CP, the Freedom Front, the AWB, everyone deceived us and used us.
That is how I feel and that is how I feel still up to this day and I have no interest in their politics.
ADV BOSMAN: When did you feel that they used you?
MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, as I said earlier on, when I went into the Defence Force and the promises they made there to us, to strive for self determination, the way that they drilled it into us, I believed the people who were there, I am honest, sincere, I believed that it was my task to ensure that the white population must be protected. That was my goal, I wanted to protect their lives.
I wanted to protect the lives of my family members, because they made it clear to us the day with the fax that Brigadier Van der Merwe intercepted, that we will be killed if the government takes over. I never saw the fax, but I accepted that these people are telling the truth.
I did not doubt any Officer, I just believed that and I will do my bit.
ADV BOSMAN: I do not think you understand my question. Did you believe in the same thing?
MR FOURIE: Yes, we did, that is the way they talked about it.
ADV BOSMAN: But how could they have used you?
MR FOURIE: What I mean is that we moved up when they gave us the instructions, we left our houses and jobs, I took my wife and children with us, out of the school, out of the home and I took them to a veld in the middle of a bush and I told them that we are walking into a Volkstaat and I believed it, and afterwards they didn't even know me.
MR MALAN: Mr Fourie, is there any reason why you can say that the people that you say misled you or deceived you, were not as convinced as you were and that they maybe at the same time realised that it is not working? Why do you say that they believed you, could they not have believed the same way you did?
MR FOURIE: They told everyone then that we are moving up. A lot of people moved up and the people who told us about it, didn't. I am talking about the leaders.
MR MALAN: The Generals in Staff, were they not there?
MR FOURIE: Yes, they were present there. But that is why I feel according to myself, I am talking now of the Generals in Staff as a whole, because they gave us instructions even before we moved up, it is war, this election must be stopped, take your family, leave your homes, move up. They don't even look after my family while I was in jail, and that is what I mean, they deceived us.
MR MALAN: But what you are saying now is that they deserted you, they did not deceive you with the purpose or with the goals, they did not deceive you with the goals?
MR FOURIE: Yes, but they just threw us away. And then you feel that what was their actual purpose with you, why?
MR MALAN: So you just feel that you were deceived and left in the lurch, that when you wanted them to assist you and look after your wife and children, they did not do anything? That is why you are angry or disappointed?
MR FOURIE: Angry, I would not say, yes, to be honest, disappointed.
MR MALAN: Because they did not help you after you were in trouble, but do you think they had other objectives in comparison to what they told you, that is now about the Volkstaat. Did you think that they would not do it?
MR FOURIE: While we were in prison, those people, if they were really leaders and if I was a leader, I would come to the front and talked about how I influenced my people, and how I gave the instructions, and where it comes from. That is how I feel.
MR MALAN: You see, why I ask you these questions, for me it is a very difficult thing to understand, I am a member of an organisation. My organisation has got leaders, I accept my leaders but I am a member of the organisation because I believe in the organisation.
My leader is also a member of the organisation, because he believes in the organisation and then to say they gave us instructions, you were part of those instructions, you thought like they did?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.
MR MALAN: Then why are you angry with them if the thing didn't work out, why are you disappointed in them that you could not reach your goals, you yourself is just as responsible?
MR FOURIE: Yes, I do not want to say that I am innocent.
MR MALAN: The point I am using and all the applicants are doing this, all the applicants are saying I was influenced by the leader. I am sure you were influenced by the leader, but at the same time I also think that the leader might have been influenced by you, because you followed him and you said, yes, we also believe in this.
MR FOURIE: That is correct. He must have seen that I also believed in this and that I was striving to obtain the same things he did.
MR MALAN: So you basically motivated each other? You cannot point your fingers to a leader?
MR FOURIE: No, I cannot point fingers, what I am saying is they deserted us, and they cannot get away with that, they have done that. They have thrown us away and they threw our families away.
MR MALAN: But that is something different, that is when the objectives were not realised, it is after that?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kriel, if you get to an appropriate time - are you still going to be a long time?
ADV GCABASHE: Can I just ask you, Mr Fourie, just arising from this discussion or your answers now to Mr Malan, you could still have held the same objectives sitting in your house, wherever that might have been. It is the leadership that got you to move from your house and go up to Ventersdorp.
The people who remained in their houses, may have had the same beliefs but they sat in their houses, so that is where the leadership issue come in, doesn't it?
MR FOURIE: That is absolutely correct.
ADV GCABASHE: So you would not be in this trouble today, had it not been for those leaders who got you out of your house, is this what you are saying?
MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR FOURIE: Thank you very much.
MR KRIEL: Thank you Chairperson, that was the aspect that I wanted to look at, so I have finished.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL: .
MR PRIOR: May I suggest that we finish the evidence of this witness and then deal with that matter in due course?
MR BRACHER: Mr Chairman, this applicant is not a person with whom my clients are concerned, I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRACHER
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I have just have two matters to canvass, possibly three. Mr Fourie, you spoke about the psychosis of fear which you wanted to sow in the minds of the people and using the bomb explosions to achieve this?
MR PRIOR: If I listen to the evidence of all the other applicants with regards to the training you received and the type of talks the leaders held, was there also a psychosis amongst the AWB members, a type of psychosis with regards to what would happen once the elections are in progress, the fact that you were so whipped up?
MR FOURIE: With regards to after the elections?
MR PRIOR: No, I am talking about before the elections and close to the elections, was there a psychosis amongst the AWB members, a fear, about what would happen with the elections?
MR FOURIE: Yes, as I have said that fax which they intercepted which said that they would kill us, they said they intercepted this fax which said that we would be killed.
MR PRIOR: I understand the military structures of the AWB and the Ystergarde, but even so you were all adult people, you were no longer young troops who received military training, wasn't there any mechanism where you could express your own opinions with regards to decisions which were taken?
MR FOURIE: The decisions were taken for you in the top structure.
MR PRIOR: As a Christian, as a law abiding citizen and now receive instruction to kill innocent people and I think it is a gruesome way to kill someone, to unexpectedly throw a bomb at someone or to plant this bomb, was this not against your own principles?
MR FOURIE: Yes, to kill innocent people, indeed, but the situation ...[intervention]
MR PRIOR: But let's forget about the situation, were there no room to question that instruction?
MR FOURIE: You could not question an instruction.
MR PRIOR: You could easily have said Mr De Wet, or your brother, wouldn't it be better to plant this bomb at a post office or a police station or an army base in order to convey the message?
MR FOURIE: No, we wouldn't have been able to do that because that person would immediately tell you, look, are you questioning my instructions?
MR PRIOR: And then what would happen then, you just would have stayed behind?
MR FOURIE: No, I do not think it would have been that easy.
MR PRIOR: Well, what would have happened to you?
MR FOURIE: You could not turn back.
MR PRIOR: What would have been the consequences?
MR PRIOR: Yes, if you questioned it?
MR FOURIE: They would definitely have shot you, you were not allowed to turn back.
MR PRIOR: How many AWB members were shot?
MR FOURIE: No, none were shot.
MR PRIOR: Were you present, this is another aspect, at the meeting of February 1997 in Ventersdorp, this is the meeting where you said in your application that a highly placed ...[intervention]
MR FOURIE: This is 1994 Chairperson.
MR PRIOR: Sorry, 1994. There were talk of 40 000 men and tanks and ratels, who was this highly placed army Official?
MR FOURIE: This highly placed Official was Brigadier Chris van der Heever, that is how I understood it. This man was in the Defence Force and he conveyed this to us and said that the ratels and tanks and everything would be provided. This was this Brigadier Chris van der Heever.
MR PRIOR: And he was a member of the standing Defence Force?
ADV BOSMAN: Do I understand you correctly, do you mean that at the time when he spoke at the Trim Park, that he was then still a member of the Defence Force?
MR FOURIE: That is how I understood it. That is what I believed at that stage.
MR PRIOR: A last question, notwithstanding the fact, we heard that Constand Viljoen stood in the elections, and he had posters up, this was a few weeks before you set off the bombs?
MR PRIOR: Were there any instructions or information from the AWB top structure that Constand Viljoen would no longer support the AWB or the Ystergarde from the Defence Force side?
MR FOURIE: No, they gave no feedback. They never said those things do no longer exist?
MR PRIOR: Are you sure about that?
MR FOURIE: I am dead sure, that is why I believed so much in this thing. I received no feedback that this was not going to go on. That is when Brigadier Chris van der Heever said in February and up until March, they were still planning all of this.
MR PRIOR: But did you not question the fact that Constand Viljoen would give support to the AWB?
MR PRIOR: Now suddenly he is in the elections now, was there no debate?
MR FOURIE: Not that I know of.
MR PRIOR: No debate amongst you members with regards to that situation?
MR FOURIE: No, there was no debate and nobody informed us look, this man is no longer with us. I understood that he registered for the elections, but I believed that the goals he wanted to achieve was still there.
MR PRIOR: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR: .
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Fourie, let me just determine whether I understand you correctly, the two blind men as you said in your evidence, were they at the flat or were they not at the flat or what was the position when you were there?
MR FOURIE: No the blind men I met at the holiday resort.
MR PRINSLOO: In other words they were not at the flat?
MR FOURIE: No, there were only females at the flat.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO: .
CHAIRPERSON: I see your birthday is the same as Paul Kruger's?
CHAIRPERSON: Did that have any significance for you in your life?
CHAIRPERSON: The blind men, when you saw them and they told you that they were involved in the then Rhodesia or Zimbabwe, did you not wonder what is happening to people who are involved in these explosions, aren't there now other blind people?
MR FOURIE: Chairperson, at that stage, I cannot describe myself, I do not know, like I have said, I think you are different. I did not talk, I did not give any comment, I knew about this war in Rhodesia.
CHAIRPERSON: But when you saw these were people who were in a bomb explosion and lost their sight, did you not think of the victims of the bomb that you have planted?
MR FOURIE: Yes, the sympathy is there, because you see what the effect is, you feel that. But I didn't comment on anything when they actually told us about this, but the feeling, you cannot describe it.
CHAIRPERSON: With regards to Mr Prior's last question, when Gen Viljoen registered as far as I can remember, he also launched an election campaign, there was a big debate about the Freedom Front and the CP with regards to participating or not.
I believed the CP and the AWB said no, do not go and vote, but the Freedom Front said yes, you must go and vote. Did you not hear that the Freedom Front said go and vote?
MR FOURIE: I know they advised him not to go and vote, they told him not to take part in the elections.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but he did take part?
MR FOURIE: That is how I understand it.
CHAIRPERSON: So you did know about the debate which was raging at that time?
MR FOURIE: Yes, I knew he made himself available for the election, but I believed that the planning, which they were part of, was still going on. I trusted that, because otherwise they must have given us some feedback.
MR MALAN: I do not want to discuss this with you, what I want to know from you is, why did you think that it is still possible that Constand Viljoen would be part of the planning to stop the elections and now he is encouraging people to go and vote?
MR FOURIE: Because that same Gen Viljoen was part of the people who indoctrinated me and who told me what to fight for, therefore I believed that he would continue with his planning to stop the elections. Because he said the violent enforcement of the Volkstaat, that was the only way to get the Volkstaat.
MR MALAN: But you say that you knew about it, that he told people to go and vote?
MR FOURIE: I said that I was aware of the fact that debate, they told him not to take part in the elections. I was not at the meeting but they told Viljoen do not take part in the elections, they do not advise it.
MR MALAN: But you also know that the Freedom Front was launching a campaign, an election campaign a few weeks before the elections?
You know that Constand Viljoen told the people that you must come and vote for the Freedom Front.
MR FOURIE: I do not know that he told us that we must go and vote for him. He said he made himself available, but the other parties were against this and they advised him not to take part.
MR MALAN: I accept that he did not tell you to go and vote, because you probably didn't see him, but he made general requests and he launched, and he was busy with campaigns and placards and he said that the Freedom Front, and you know about the Freedom Front at that time, that is the one he registered, is going to take part in the election.
MR FOURIE: Chairperson at that time, in March, when we were busy with our preparations and the time that I moved up, there were only preparations. The politics were there and the preparations were being made. I made my family prepare themselves.
I did not, was not interested in anything else, I did not watch TV any more. We were in progress.
CHAIRPERSON: Just to link up with that, did you not see the posters and the placards, the election placards in the street which said come and vote for Viljoen and the Freedom Front?
MR FOURIE: If I say that I did see a placard, I would by lying, I cannot image that I saw one, and that is my honest opinion.
MR MALAN: But if you say you didn't see it, then you might lie as well?
MR FOURIE: Maybe, but during the time of preparation, I had no regard or I did not even notice, I had no regard for people who were voting, because I was not going to vote.
MR MALAN: But now we are getting back to the same line that I have questioned you on before. This means that the leaders were no longer influencing you to stop the elections, you yourself decided to stop the elections, and you were part of that?
MR FOURIE: I was part of my people, we would stop the elections, the preparations were made. I do not know when these placards appeared.
MR MALAN: But if he made himself, if he registered himself ...[intervention]
MR FOURIE: The fact that he registered himself, yes, I agree with that.
MR MALAN: I am not going to, what I would like to know from you, it seems to me that you are saying to me you didn't need anyone more, you didn't need anybody else to influence you to stop the elections, this was your own determination to stop this election?
MR MALAN: No one was influencing you any more, you were completely committed to stopping the elections in whatever way and to get the Volkstaat and you did not want to listen to Constand Viljoen any more, or anybody else?
MR FOURIE: Yes, I was already committed, that is correct.
MR MALAN: So why ...[intervention]
MR FOURIE: I am understanding you wrongly.
MR MALAN: So why do you say that you were influenced by your leaders and you did these things because you received instructions, and let's accept for the moment that the instructions were there, but why do you hide behind the instructions if you already committed yourself as an AWB member who agreed with everything?
MR FOURIE: Now I understand you better.
MR MALAN: Can you please answer that then. Do I understand you right, you did not need those instructions any more, you were committed?
MR FOURIE: I was totally committed, yes.
ADV GCABASHE: Now you see, you have lost me again. You have just said you didn't need those instructions from the leaders to act the way you did. I am just paraphrasing it, is this what you are saying?
MR FOURIE: Let me put it this way, the instructions were already given and we were making ourselves ready and there were no further instructions. The instructions were already given and this is what I did. I followed them.
ADV GCABASHE: But if you had not been given instructions, one, to go to the game farm, you would be elsewhere, yes?
MR FOURIE: Sorry, did you say something about the game farm?
ADV GCABASHE: You were given instructions to go and join the chaps at the game farm?
MR FOURIE: No, we were already together and from there we went to the game farm. That was after the instructions, the call up instructions came, then we went to the game farm.
ADV GCABASHE: But how did you know you had to gather at the game farm? You were told to come up to Ventersdorp?
MR FOURIE: That is correct, we moved up to Ventersdorp and from there we went to Cliffie Barnard's farm and from there we went to Jan de Wet's farm and then once again we left for Ventersdorp and then we went to the game farm.
ADV GCABASHE: I am trying to understand or draw a distinction between coming up with your family and staying with them at Cliffie Barnard's farm, yes?
ADV GCABASHE: And looking after them in that environment, okay?
ADV GCABASHE: As opposed to going to the game farm and ultimately being involved in the pipe bomb incidents?
MR FOURIE: We were given instructions t gather our things together, to get food supplies, we were going to leave from there.
I did not at that stage, know that we were going to go to a game farm.
ADV GCABASHE: But you were under instruction when you went to the game farm?
ADV GCABASHE: And you were under instruction from your leaders?
ADV GCABASHE: And it is only when you got, and correct me if I am wrong, it is only when you got to the game farm that the immediate objective of setting off these bombs to derail the elections, was made clear to you?
MR FOURIE: Yes, concerning the bombs, yes.
ADV GCABASHE: When you went to the game farm, you could easily have been going there simply to protect the people there, not necessarily to get involved in offensive missions?
MR FOURIE: No, I committed myself completely with the situation and we wanted to stop the elections, and that was my objective.
ADV GCABASHE: Don't misunderstand me, I am saying when you got to the game farm, the fact that you were now going to be bombing places, so as to derail the elections, was only made clear to you at that time, not before?
MR FOURIE: Yes, the thing about bombing places, that was only conveyed to us at the game farm.
ADV GCABASHE: So in terms of your objective of coming to Ventersdorp to try and secure your Volkstaat and to help prevent the elections, you could have done all of those things by patrolling that game farm, nothing more, nothing less, you would still have achieved your objective?
MR FOURIE: No, the instruction was quite evident and I identified with them, we must cause chaos and unrest to stop the elections because this is going to be a war.
ADV GCABASHE: This is precisely the point, you needed this other instruction from this other grouping and for your purposes you said it was the AWB leadership, you needed that instruction to go out and throw bombs elsewhere as opposed to staying on the game farm and protecting that part of your territory?
MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson, I did receive the instructions there, that is how it happened.
ADV GCABASHE: So you would have been fulfilled or your objective would have been fulfilled had you simply stayed on the game farm, and patrolled as some of the others did, that is all they did? Your objective that you had in your head when you left your house and sold everything up, would have been fulfilled at that point, having just patrolled and done nothing else?
MR FOURIE: I understand what you are trying to say, but I received the instructions. If they did not want to task me with this, they would have tasked someone else, that is correct. Yes, we would have still achieved our goal, but they gave me specifically the instruction to do that.
ADV GCABASHE: Let me move on, I will leave that at that, let me move on to a related point. Again we are talking about essentially planning and the objective you were trying to achieve in that context.
Just the question now in that context is, on the night of the 26th you decided to approach Abe Fourie about going to see your families.
MR FOURIE: Yes, on the 26th, that is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: As far as you were concerned, you were in a war situation?
ADV GCABASHE: And Abe Fourie himself knew that you were in a war situation?
MR FOURIE: Yes, I believe that.
ADV GCABASHE: Did Abe Fourie or Du Plessis sit down with the men at that point, including yourself, and say right, the election is tomorrow, there are certain things we still have to achieve to ensure that this election is stopped. This is going to be our plan between today and either tomorrow or the next day, but essentially was there a structured approach to the rest of the war that they communicated to you before you went off for a break, if that is what you want to call this?
MR FOURIE: To put it briefly, we got there, the people asked if they could go and see their wives. We only had enough food for the week so we needed some more food supplies. They didn't discuss anything else with us.
Commandant Fourie went to the Brigadier and asked him if we may leave that place to go and visit the wives. He came and gave us feedback, he said yes, it is fine, you can go. But there was no talk about planning, nothing that I know of. They did not discuss anything with us.
ADV GCABASHE: So as far as you knew, your Commanders had no other missions or operations they wanted you to participate in before or on the 27th of April?
ADV GCABASHE: Didn't this strike you as strange considering that the new objective now, as you explained it, was to ensure that that election did not take place, you knew this at that point?
MR FOURIE: I am sorry, could you please put your question again, I am not sure ...[intervention]
ADV GCABASHE: I am simply asking for your own opinion now, what you might have thought at the time. Didn't you think that your release, you know the ability to go and see your families at that particular time, was strange considering that the election was going to take place the very next day and you were trying to stop this election.
It really wasn't part of a para-military organisation, this or maybe you thought otherwise, I don't know. Just your opinion?
MR FOURIE: No, it was not about going to visit. It was just to go and see the wives and to get food supplies. That is why we came back early that morning and first went around to Ventersdorp, we didn't go and visit them the whole day, we came back to the same place.
ADV GCABASHE: That is the other part of my question, I was coming to that. Why did you go to Ventersdorp, why did you not come back to the place your Commanders had released you from?
MR FOURIE: The people first wanted to go around to Head Office before we go back to the game farm. I was not in charge, I was only a Lieutenant. I drove with the people who had higher ranks and who gave the instructions. I do not know what their purpose was for them going to Ventersdorp first.
I cannot say why they did that.
ADV GCABASHE: It was not discussed in your presence?
ADV GCABASHE: Then when you got to Ventersdorp, there is talk of a fax that you heard about, there is a fax that was intercepted. I will start again, okay, when you got to Ventersdorp, there is mention of a fax that was intercepted by some General or the other.
You gave that evidence do you remember?
MR FOURIE: Sorry, I gave evidence of a fax that was intercepted during a meeting in February at the meeting in Trim Park.
ADV GCABASHE: Okay, that is where I then misunderstood you. I actually thought the fax was intercepted at that point in time, not at a previous - now the contents of that fax was shared with you at Ventersdorp on that day or did you know about it before?
MR FOURIE: No, we were told after the meeting at Trim Park, Ventersdorp February, before we started working.
ADV GCABASHE: Do you remember who they said the fax was from and where it was going to?
MR FOURIE: Brigadier Leon van der Merwe just conveyed it to us that this fax was intercepted, where and how I do not know, but it was a fax from the ANC that was intercepted saying that we will be shot and killed.
ADV GCABASHE: And do you know who it was going to?
ADV GCABASHE: Then a final question, I think I just missed this somewhere, I get the impression that you were not present when the pipe bomb demonstration took place, is that correct?
ADV GCABASHE: And is that the reason why you were therefore not tasked to operate it, I don't know, to operate the pipe bomb?
MR FOURIE: Yes, it must be like that, yes.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you Chair.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Fourie, just a few questions. From what area did you come?
ADV BOSMAN: From whom did you receive your direct call up instructions?
MR FOURIE: It came directly from Brigadier Van der Merwe.
ADV BOSMAN: I cannot remember what your brother, Mr Fourie, testified who gave him his call up instructions, but his evidence differs from yours and I wonder if you could maybe clarify that. His evidence was that his call up instructions entailed come to Ventersdorp in order for us to protect the Volkstaat borders, establish and protect.
Your evidence was that the call up instructions entailed come and let us fight in this war. You were obviously - received your instructions at different places, but why these two versions, can you comment on that?
MR FOURIE: That was during the meeting at Trim Park when Brigadier Van der Merwe addressed us. Then the people who were present there, they were the Garde and it was confirmed there that the call up, the call up instructions and the date and myself, I still said why must we go up on the 15th and not the 12th of April.
The instruction was given there already.
ADV BOSMAN: The war instruction?
MR FOURIE: Yes, and the call up instruction for the 12th of April, but the way I can clarify it is that he was the Commandant. There were people under him who were not present there and he conveyed the instruction to them.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, this pure Volkstaat that you wanted, would there be criminals in this Volkstaat or problems in this Volkstaat or did you foresee that in the future?
Let us say that you received this Volkstaat, you now live there, it is governed by the AWB or whoever, did you think there would be problems?
MR FOURIE: Yes, the problems as in an ordinary life style, the way we live now, yes, there would have been problems. I believe those elements would still exist. It is part of being human.
CHAIRPERSON: Amongst the people who live in the Volkstaat?
MR FOURIE: I believe there would have been criminal elements.
CHAIRPERSON: I get the impression that there would have been more Police than anything else, they gave you the promise that you would do the policing?
MR FOURIE: All that I heard from Commandant Abe Fourie, that he would have the work and 20 other men, and he conveyed to me that I would be one of them in Klerksdorp.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that and all of the applicants come here and say we were told, promises were made to us that we would become Policemen.
I wonder what other type of people there would be then, and who you were going to protect?
MR FOURIE: I saw it as we were named the Garde, would be part of that Police. They probably chose us or elected us for that job, and that is how I saw it.
CHAIRPERSON: Could you have seen if it would have been a Police State?
MR FOURIE: No, I saw that you have got your Police, your Defence Force, there would be certain sections in the community.
CHAIRPERSON: It would probably have been the VSP and not the Volkstaat, and not the SAP?
MR FOURIE: I do not know what it would have been called, but I believe the people had the knowledge to plan it.
CHAIRPERSON: You knew that this whole attempt to continue with this war, and whatever you wanted to obtain from this or get from this, was assisted mainly or would have been assisted mainly by a number of the South African Defence Force?
MR FOURIE: That is what they told us, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: As well as a few Policemen, members of the Police?
Let us talk about the Defence Force only. How many soldiers did you think will assist you in this attempt?
MR FOURIE: They mentioned something like 40 000 to 43 000.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it not correct that this assistance that the AWB would have received from the Defence Force, was controlled by Mr Constand Viljoen?
MR FOURIE: Yes, I believed that and also by the Generals who served under him.
CHAIRPERSON: But General Constand Viljoen was the main or chief General, is that not true?
CHAIRPERSON: If I can use this expression in Afrikaans, he played the guitar amongst the soldiers there.
MR FOURIE: Yes, and the Generals in the Defence Force.
CHAIRPERSON: And if something happened or went wrong, he would have fixed it. He was the boss?
The way I understand things, Mr Constand Viljoen when he decided to take part in the elections, did he do his work in that area which you saw as the Volkstaat, for example Ventersdorp and Rustenburg, is that not true?
MR FOURIE: Yes, it is possible, I was far from there.
CHAIRPERSON: When you went to Ventersdorp, I do not know what the date was, did you not realise in Ventersdorp that Mr Constand Viljoen is now busy to canvass votes and ask for votes, by putting up posters etc?
MR FOURIE: As I said, we moved in there, we went to Trim Park, received our instructions there and went to the farm..
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know that but I assume you must have seen, surely, a poster in the main street of Ventersdorp. I think everybody did that, because in that election there were too few lamp posts for all the posters. We who had normal cars, it was difficult for us to get through traffic, but did you not see Constand Viljoen's posters?
MR FOURIE: Honestly I cannot say, it could have been there or not.
CHAIRPERSON: This main attack, or the concept of this main attack or war, was controlled by Constand Viljoen?
CHAIRPERSON: I do not know how many soldiers the AWB had, the Defence Force had 40 000 or more.
MR FOURIE: We had more soldiers than the Defence Force at that stage. They talked of at least 60 000 men who can fight.
CHAIRPERSON: Let us accept that you believed that, but a substantial amount of your power force was under Constand Viljoen's control, the ordinary Defence Force member and if he pulled out, then it would have been a blow for the AWB and war in which they wanted to fight?
MR FOURIE: Yes, if we were aware of the fact that he withdrew.
CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you talk about it or discuss the fact that Constand is leaving us in the lurch, we are loosing 40 000 soldiers?
MR FOURIE: No, the thing is Mr Chairperson as I said earlier on, at that date when we received our call up instructions, it was still brought under our attention that the Defence Force and the South African Police is supporting us and that the vehicles that would be borrowed to us ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: That was your information?
CHAIRPERSON: And you also acted on instructions. Could you not think for yourself that the basic reason why you agreed in this war, was that 100 000 men and now 40 000 is gone. Didn't you even talk about it?
MR FOURIE: No, no one said that we lost those troops.
CHAIRPERSON: But you knew that Constand Viljoen is in control of that, did you not question the fact that or asked if the soldiers are still with us and not just that Constand Viljoen left, did he take his soldiers with?
MR FOURIE: No, I never questioned that.
MR FOURIE: I think I believed too much.
CHAIRPERSON: But you couldn't have believed this because you did not know if he would bring his soldiers with.
MR FOURIE: At that stage I still thought that things would go according to plan.
CHAIRPERSON: The plans were that Constand Viljoen would make war with you, that was the plan?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that was part of the planning.
CHAIRPERSON: Now I ask again, or tell you again, he is going to look for votes, he is looking for a place to stay in the Cape.
MR FOURIE: I did not believe that that man withdrew, even if he decided to take part in the election.
CHAIRPERSON: Let's say that you, when did you find out that he took part in the elections?
MR FOURIE: It was after the day of the elections, while we were fleeing.
CHAIRPERSON: So it doesn't matter, even if you knew beforehand that he withdrew or is taking part in the election, is that not true.
MR FOURIE: Let me put it as this, he did register at that stage. Let's say that I did accept the fact that he is taking part in the elections, I would still have believed that his plan would go ahead, because they were Generals, they know exactly how to plan.
And I believed that the plan would still continue, I did not doubt that.
CHAIRPERSON: And you cannot say why you thought that?
CHAIRPERSON: Can you say why you believed it?
MR FOURIE: Because Viljoen was part of the people who said that they will establish this Volkstaat in a violent say.
CHAIRPERSON: And now he is gone?
MR FOURIE: I did not believe that he was gone or had left.
MR FOURIE: I don't know, I didn't believe it.
CHAIRPERSON: You see, I find it strange Mr Fourie, that all the applicants in one way or another, and they do not say why, they thought that let us call it a ploy, no one knew or thought that they were really gone, that he was really gone, it was a lie that he is going to take part in the elections.
Did you discuss to decide we think it is a ploy?
MR FOURIE: I never talked to anybody about it, no one talked to me.
CHAIRPERSON: All the applicants had a similar idea.
MR FOURIE: The plan was from the Generals and these right wing leaders.
CHAIRPERSON: So everything that went through every applicant's head, is by mere change?
MR FOURIE: I do not think so, it was part of the plan. I think those people knew exactly how to plan.
CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about your thoughts.
MR FOURIE: That is my thoughts and that is how I put it.
CHAIRPERSON: You thought it was a ploy, he is not really going to take part in the election?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that was part of the planning.
CHAIRPERSON: And all the other applicants thought the same thing, even though you did not talk about it?
MR FOURIE: Yes, that is what I said earlier on.
CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you find it strange - the improbability of that idea that a man puts up posters in the street, the whole world now knows that he is going to take part in an election and then individually all the applicants you think it is a set, it is a ploy, without discussing it?
MR FOURIE: Without doubt, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You are now in this war and you accepted this war is going on and things are going right, bombs are exploding and tomorrow is the election that we want to stop.
If we question anything, we will be shot, especially the evening before the target or main target, how is it then that while you were amongst the group of people, you had the audacity to go and ask the evening before the election, to go.
Didn't you think the people would turn around and shoot you if you can ask such a question just before the election?
MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson, you see the thing was that we did not turn away from that thing. We went to them and we asked and they had to make the decision, is it possible or not possible. There wasn't an argument about it.
CHAIRPERSON: What I find strange is that the evening before the election, which is now the most important day in the AWB's life, the first democratic election that you wanted to stop for your own reasons, that you all go back home that evening?
MR FOURIE: No, it was not all of us. I think it was a group of 12 and there was a large group.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, this group then?
MR FOURIE: No, were a small group out of this large group, I think we were plus minus 12.
CHAIRPERSON: We need every man in this struggle especially the evening before the elections, how is it then that 12 people go home to go and visit their wives?
MR FOURIE: You see, what I said earlier on, when we went to go and ask to go and see the wives, we also needed food supplies, we only had food supply for a week.
We took clothes and food for a week and the supply was finished and we requested it. They could have said yes or no because the next morning we had to be back.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you go back the next morning?
MR FOURIE: We drove and then they said we are first going around to Head Office before we go to the shooting range, but we were on our way back and they just went around there.
CHAIRPERSON: Who were the 12 people who went there?
MR FOURIE: It was myself, Peet Steyn, Abe Fourie, Albie Briers, there were a Jan, I think we drove with two or three cars, there were too many people for two cars.
MR FOURIE: No, Jan de Wet went with us, yes. They had a blue Cortina, there were two big men. They went with, I cannot remember their names.
I know that the group that went ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Nel with you?
MR FOURIE: No, Jaco Nel did not go with us, he said that he would go this way with Major Smit but they went in another direction.
We were just the men whose wives were at that farm.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jannie Kruger, did he go with?
MR FOURIE: Tiaan Potgieter, yes.
MR FOURIE: I do not think so, I do not think he drove with us, no.
MR FOURIE: No. Vlok was there. Koekemoer, no. Shorty.
MR FOURIE: I knew him as Shorty. I am trying to think, there was another person with us. There was another man with us, I cannot now remember his name. The other Jan was Jan de Lange. Hanekom, I cannot remember their surnames.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it not the people who took part in the pipe bomb attacks that went home?
MR FOURIE: No the people who went there, their wives were there, that is why we could go with to this farm.
CHAIRPERSON: But those who wanted to get away from the farm, were they not the men who took part in the pipe bomb attacks?
MR FOURIE: No, not all of them as far as I know. The other men who were present, they didn't go out on missions.
If I can look at that, the groups, then I could probably help you.
CHAIRPERSON: You do not know of who were in the other groups?
MR FOURIE: What I know is that our group whose wives were on the other farm, we asked permission. The other people I do not know, I knew the rest of the groups that to stay at the shooting range and another Commander was appointed as Camp Commandant whilst Abe Fourie was not there.
CHAIRPERSON: Your wives, were they under the impression that you are still busy trying to establish this Volkstaat?
MR FOURIE: No the little time we spent with them, was very short. We told them, ensured them that the struggle is on, they knew about that, but the time with the family, we spoke about family things.
I can only speak for myself, but we are very close, me and my family, we are very close. I always believe time is precious.
CHAIRPERSON: Did they know that the bombs were exploded by the AWB?
CHAIRPERSON: How did they know?
MR FOURIE: Because that is why we moved up there, and we told them we are going to fight, it is war.
CHAIRPERSON: No, am talking about the bombs, the Bree Street bomb, did they know who was responsible for those specific bombs?
MR FOURIE: No, I did not discuss anything with the women because I always said the soldier does not discuss his instructions.
If they saw it on televisions and they made conclusions, then they kept it to themselves. They knew it was the AWB, that is the way they spoke and talked, but I did not discuss my instructions with the women.
I do not know about the other men, but I did not. My wife now knows what I did.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you planning to join the AWB again?
CHAIRPERSON: Are you finished with politics?
CHAIRPERSON: Are you finished with politics?
MR FOURIE: My honest opinion, yes, I am finished.
CHAIRPERSON: And the Volkstaat, is this still an idea that you are interested in?
MR FOURIE: A Volkstaat is a good idea. Like I see it now, the government of the day, the negotiations are there and they must be the people who take the decisions.
I identify myself with the new government.
MR FOURIE: Because everything they said before the elections, about how things would be, that did not happen. It is going well.
They told us that we would not continue existing, there would be chaos in this country once they take over. The PAC said that they were going to shoot us and even so, there are negotiations and we are alive.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you willing to live in the new South Africa?
MR FOURIE: I live well. Give them a Volkstaat and I will respect it as I respect all of them.
CHAIRPERSON: And if it does not happen?
MR FOURIE: Then we stay and we build together, because if all of us aren't going to build on this country, we will not achieve any goal.
CHAIRPERSON: So you have made peace with the country as it is currently existing?
MR FOURIE: Yes, I have made my peace.
CHAIRPERSON: Please tell me, do you know the people who were injured or the family of the people who died because of the bomb you planted or thrown or whatever?
MR FOURIE: I do not know them, the names were made known.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you make any attempt to try and talk to them and to make peace with them?
MR FOURIE: I believed that this is the day. I believed the day we come and sit here.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you willing to talk to them, to tell them what is on your heart?
MR FOURIE: Yes, I am willing to talk to them.
CHAIRPERSON: How do you think you are going to accomplish that?
MR FOURIE: I do not know. I heard that there would be some of the family members present here. If they allow me to talk to them, then we must talk, if they have nothing against me.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you can step down.
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, if it pleases the Committee, could we possibly just get clarity on the way forward from here, who is going to be called and when before we take the adjournment. I don't think it should take too long to decide that.
CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not switched on) Sorry, I decided that Olivier would be done in chambers.
We are finished with the applicants and their versions and evidence. Are you planning to call any other witness?
MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, Chairperson, I plan to call Nico Prinsloo.
MS VAN DER WALT: He is not. If I can give you the reason. I spoke to him last night for the first time. He was very unhappy, I think it was in the media or something, that he did not receive notice when they applicants started giving the evidence, but he is willing to come and testify, but it is impossible for me to have consulted with him completely, last night.
His evidence would have bearing on a wide spectrum. I did speak to the other legal representatives this morning and I discussed this aspect with them, because I felt that despite the fact that I cannot make him testify now, I have not consulted with him fully yet. Even if I had him here now, his evidence in chief would not have been finished tomorrow at one, and then he must still be cross-questioned.
It is going to be a very long evidence, I can warn you. His evidence is going to be concerned with the run up, the political run up from the beginning and there is a lot of problems dealing with that, we are talking about the Volksfront, etc, but I think it is necessary for the applicants, I think they will be disadvantaged if this evidence is not led.
CHAIRPERSON: I do not know what he is going to say, but I just want to point it out to you that we do not want the 21 years of the AWB's history, only with regards to the applicants's issues.
MS VAN DER WALT: That is the only one I am going to call.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Is the General family of yours?
CHAIRPERSON: I am just asking.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I obtained information last night and in the light of certain evidence, I consider to consult and call Johan Smit. I learnt that he does have a legal representative so I will have to speak to him first.
CHAIRPERSON: How long do you think it will take for him to give his evidence?
MR PRINSLOO: His evidence will be shorter than that of Mr Prinsloo. You know where he is involved in this case.
CHAIRPERSON: Why haven't you consulted with him yet or why haven't someone consulted with him yet?
MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, I learnt that he was notified and I also learnt that he has a legal representative, which should be present at these proceedings, but last night I obtained some information with regards to that. I was never in a position to consult with him and at that time, I also did not deem it necessary to call him, because of the applicants' own evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only person you plan on calling? Are you sure you are going to call him, or are you just going to consult?
MR PRINSLOO: I am going to call him.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you consulted with him?
CHAIRPERSON: How do you know you are going to call him?
MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, because of the information that I received, he is willing to testify, I did not speak to him personally.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Mr Landman?
MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, originally I indicated that I appeared on behalf of one applicant, Mr Buthelezi. He doesn't intend giving evidence in this hearing, however the Evidence Leader, Mr Prior has indicated that there are certain victims who may want my services.
I still have to get clarity from the Legal Aid Board as to whether or not I get instructions from them. I do understand that ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not switched on)
CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not switched on)
MR LANDMAN: I have understood from Mr Prior that at least one or two of those persons, are interested in making oral submissions, but I will obviously discuss it with him.
CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not switched on)
MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chairman, as indicated that I will be leading three families of deceased or injured persons. Mr Chairman, may I just comment on something?
When we started this application, we had a lot of confusion about who was applying for what, it took quite a while for us to sort out.
CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not switched on)
MS CAMBANIS: Now, there is at least one more witness and the possibility of another witness and we don't know after those two witnesses, if then further witnesses, and we really would, I would on behalf of my clients like to get clarity of what the case is going to be by the applicants, who they intend calling or whether if we reconvene at some future stage, more people ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not switched on) what he is going to say.
MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chairman, before, I don't know when it is anticipated that will happen, but I would, I am sure, we would like some indication of what he is going to say in order for us to prepare adequately for these witnesses.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if I can help you there, maybe you ought to make a request to the representative.
CHAIRPERSON: But you say three people at this stage?
MS CAMBANIS: That is correct, yes sir.
MR KRIEL: Mr Chairman, I have indicated in chambers that I intend handing up two affidavits.
CHAIRPERSON: Merely for the purposes of referring to the reparation?
MR KRIEL: That is so Mr Chairman, they will be short affidavits. I don't intend calling them as witnesses.
MR JORDI: Can I just put something on record, or let me first tell you about my witnesses, I have one on affidavit, I will have one brief victim/witness who just want to ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: The one on affidavit, is that merely for the purposes of reparation?
MR JORDI: Correct, and just to express the personal views, it is a typical victim statement if you like.
Mr Chairman, I just want to say something about the further conduct of this hearing.
CHAIRPERSON: But if the other witness will be testifying?
MR JORDI: Yes, but it is a sort of five, ten minute witness.
CHAIRPERSON: That is what you hope?
MR JORDI: I will try and keep it under limits. Mr Chairman, what I want to say is about the intention to call Mr Prinsloo and there are two things that follow from that.
First of all you will know that it has to be questions relevant to the subject matter of this hearing, and I think this hearing has got to a point of knowing where we are going, and as you say, to start 21 years ago, it doesn't help.
There was a point where this war went from defence to offence and I think that should be, and if Mr Prinsloo is going to come and take responsibility for that, then there are two things that I want to add.
First of all, I want to put on record now for the purposes of these applicants, that I will submit in argument that they are now getting witnesses here to talk about the principles of the AWB and it is up to them now to make their minds up.
It seems to me that the other people who should be subpoenaed or whatever, and they haven't asked for them. Prinsloo comes here and just gives vague stuff about being a man in the middle, and we are still no further to the principle, then I am going to ask for inferences to be drawn, so they must make up their minds now.
The other thing is that the first thing that will happen to Mr Prinsloo, if he takes any responsibility here, he is going to get a summons from me for reparation, and he's got R15 million on the back of him. What I want to say ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Let's not get to the threats yet.
MR JORDI: No it is not a threat. I am saying it for a very real purpose, because Section 34(4) of the Act says a person shall be informed timeously of his or her right to be represented by a legal representative.
I want Mr Prinsloo to know that and to come here on whatever day with a legal representative, if he wants to, not to get, when I start asking questions say, no I want my lawyer here.
That is the other thing I want to say.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, I hope Ms Van der Walt takes note of that too.
MR JORDI: And the same goes for Mr Smit whoever he may be.
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there are three victims throughout the last couple of days, that have been represented by the Evidence Leader.
This morning I received a fax from Cape Town that three more victims had responded and they haven't turned up as yet, but apparently indicated to the Analyst Ms Hoskins that they were going to come through.
MR PRIOR: It is unclear, but they have responded to the notices, albeit late, but indicated that they were interested. I will follow that up.
The indication by Ms Cambanis was one of the victims had brought the employer along and the employer with the victim, Mr Matsekane was interested in whether they could get, because they had actually applied for Legal Aid, nothing had happened. After discussion with the employer, I indicated to the representatives of the other victims, that the witness seemed to want representation outside of the Committee.
The indication was that the Wits Law Clinic may come to the assistance of that. Mr Patel was supposed to have come through, but that hasn't materialised. Those victims will be here tomorrow, so nothing really has taken place.
They are still being represented by the Amnesty Committee, the Evidence Leader. Obviously I never took full instructions from them, the reasons why they wanted an independent Attorney, but that was the indication that they felt they could probably be better represented, it is their choice.
And the indication also, they were very concerned about reparation and so from that side, I think they wanted to engage their own Attorney. But it is not an insurmountable problem from my side.
There are three, whether they are led by Mr Landman or myself, they will be led, also five to ten minutes, certainly no longer than that. And then possibly three others, but they haven't turned up yet.
CHAIRPERSON: We've got about 12 witnesses that we are talking about, one of which is a longish one? Is anyone ready to testify this afternoon?
I am loathe not to sit this afternoon and tomorrow morning.
MR PRIOR: I understand there is one of the witnesses who wants to address the Committee. A lady in red, she is pointing to herself.
CHAIRPERSON: I understand that there are a few witnesses whose evidence we can dispose of this afternoon and I intend to do so.
Mr Bracher, you have indicated that one of your, two of your witnesses are interested in making statements?
MR BRACHER: Yes Mr Chairman, I will lead the one witness, my colleague, Mr Sinjatsi will lead the other evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me just get something clear. Is it the making of a statement or testifying which carries with it cross-examination implications?
MR BRACHER: No, they will be testifying.
CHAIRPERSON: Testifying. Who are you calling?
MR BRACHER: The first witness will be Mr Sydney Lesley Ontong.
CHAIRPERSON: You can call him.
SYDNEY LESLEY ONTONG: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR BRACHER: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ontong, you were the father of Paul Ontong, who was killed in the Germiston bomb blast?
MR BRACHER: Can you tell us first of all about your son, and then about the circumstances, where he was at the time of his murder?
MR ONTONG: Paul was a young man of 19 years old, very happy go lucky chap. He was the one in the family who always brought joy to the family.
We had five kids, well Paul was the fifth one, and he always seemed to bring the happiness and the joy to the whole family. If there was some problem in the family, he was the one to break that down.
The day he was killed with the bomb blast, he was in the shop opposite to where the trailer was parked. He was approximately 10 to 15 metres away from that bomb blast and we thank God that he died instantaneously.
MR BRACHER: Mr Ontong, how did this event effect your personally?
MR ONTONG: Personally my health took a dip. For these four years since he died, I have been into hospital, I have been to see Doctors, my health has really taken a dip.
My wife's health has deteriorated as well and my family as a whole, they have all suffered, the other four kids that is.
MR BRACHER: Just explain something, what it has done to your family as a unit?
MR ONTONG: Well, we are, we were a very close family, we are very close now, even more so. Their health, their personalities have changed to such an extent that they cannot believe what actually happened, it is so unreal. You read about these things in the newspapers and you never realise, until it happens to you, how close it is.
I mean there has been many accounts of people being killed, not property, this is the point, it is not property, it is people that is being killed.
They never realised that it would be so close, that it could happen to anybody and naturally it happened to Paul, very close.
MR BRACHER: Mr Ontong, you sat through the evidence of the people responsible for the Germiston bomb, what is your attitude towards them and the evidence that you have heard this week?
MR ONTONG: Anger, I feel very angry about the applicants. As far as I am concerned, not one of them has shown any kind of remorse, not one of them in this past week and a day, has come forward, they have seen me outside the hall, not one of them has had the courage to come to me or to my wife, and apologised for what they had done.
I am not saying that I would have accepted his apology, I don't think so, but not one of them has come forward and to me, this is a cowardly act. They are all cowards as far as I am concerned and the anger that I feel towards these men, is tremendous. But I will not lower myself to their level.
MR BRACHER: Did you hear any kind of remorse in the evidence that they gave?
MR ONTONG: Not at all, not at all, there is no sign of remorse in the evidence they gave.
MR BRACHER: Mr Ontong, I just want to put it on record, your son was neither working for the State nor working in State property at the time of his death?
MR ONTONG: No, definitely not, it wasn't State property.
MR BRACHER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRACHER: .
MS VAN DER WALT: I've got no questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: .
MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: .
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL: .
MS CAMBANIS: No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: .
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL: .
MR PRIOR: Just one aspect. Mr Ontong, can you think of any way in which some form of reparation or some, in whatever way, could be effected in this matter, that might lead to some form of reconciliation? It is irrespective of whether amnesty is granted or not?
MR ONTONG: The only way that I can think of some kind of reparation, that these men should sit and serve their full sentence and not be granted amnesty, because to me, it was a cowardly act. They went out as was led in evidence, they are a splinter group, as far as I am concerned, they are a splinter group, they went out and placed the bombs at their own will.
They knew what they were doing, they placed the bombs at their own will, they knew what they were doing and the only way they are going to find out is by sitting in jail, and thinking about it over the years.
MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ontong, I can fully understand your anger. All I can say is that I hope with time, the hurt you feel, the anger that you experience, will dwindle and I can only hope to God, that you can come to terms with your losses.
I thank you for your interest in this hearing.
MR ONTONG: Thank you Mr Chairman.
MR BRACHER: Mr Chairman, I have an affidavit here by Mrs Ontong, she finds it too painful to give evidence. I was expecting this to be done tomorrow, so I only have one copy, I have given a copy to the Advocates for the applicants, but can I just hand that up and leave it at that? Thank you, then that will be all.
MR SINJATSI: Mr Chairman, thank you very much. For the record, I have been formally briefed today to assist Mrs Phungula, first name Mavis.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us an address?
MR SINJATSI: She comes from Katlehong, Moleleki Section. I will perhaps just get the number when I put her through the cross-examination, just to get the full details of the address. Katlehong Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Phungula, do you prefer to speak English or Afrikaans or Xhosa or whatever other language?
MRS PHUNGULA: I will speak Zulu.
MAVIS PHUNGULA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR SINJATSI: Mrs Phungula, you are a victim or you were a victim in the Germiston bombing is that correct?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, that is correct.
MR SINJATSI: Before you proceed to lead your evidence, would you just give the exact residential address, your exact residential address?
MRS PHUNGULA: I reside in number 3474, Moleleki Extension 1, Katlehong.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you repeat that, 34?
MRS PHUNGULA: 3474, Moleleki Extension 1, Katlehong.
MR SINJATSI: Do you have a phone number at home?
MR SINJATSI: May you give the Chairman your number?
MR SINJATSI: Do you have a postal address?
MRS PHUNGULA: I only use the one at work, that is where I get my mail.
MR SINJATSI: You may give that to the Chairman as well.
MRS PHUNGULA: It is number 89 Odendaal Street, the name of the shop is Fair and Quick Bulk Supermarket, in Germiston.
MR SINJATSI: I believe you are married, is that correct?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, that is correct.
MR SINJATSI: Can you give, can you tell us what happened to the blast. I mean you were injured in this incident, how did it happen?
MRS PHUNGULA: It is a little difficult for me to talk.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we will take a break until she is okay. We will adjourn.
MR SINJATSI: As you please Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Phungula, I hope you are feeling a little bit better now.
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to proceed?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, yes, I can continue.
CHAIRPERSON: If you do feel that you need to take a break or to - you want a rest, please indicate when you want to do so.
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, I will do that.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, you can proceed.
MAVIS PHUNGULA: (still under oath)
EXAMINATION BY MR SINJATSI: (cont)
I believe you were pregnant when this incident took place, is that correct?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, that is correct.
MR SINJATSI: How many months were you pregnant?
MR SINJATSI: Is it also true that this trailer which carried the bomb, was parked in front of your shop?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, that is correct.
MR SINJATSI: Are you now in a position to tell the Chairman and members of the Commission how it happened on that particular morning, just in brief?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, I will be able to do that.
MRS PHUNGULA: Let me put it this way, in April, that was on the 25th, it was around quarter to nine in the morning, two white men came and they unhooked a trailer from a car and they parked it in front of the shop.
When they came, this white lady said they should be careful because there was a brick in front of the car. They were not really looking at us, they just said thank you, removed the brick and slowly parked the trailer in front of the shop.
I asked them in Zulu why they were parking this thing in front of the shop and nobody answered. I thought they did not understand because I was talking to them in Zulu. They then got into the car and left.
I looked at the time and I realised it was quarter to nine. Then they left. This white lady with whom I was working, I actually said to her, asked her why she was not asking them why they were parking it in front of it, and I thought they may have been selling something.
The trailer was not locked, but it was just closed. I went back into the shop. It was on the Monday. You see I am working at a supermarket. I came back to the outside, I just had a feeling that there was something about this trailer, I wanted to open it because it was not locked, but I heard a knock, I feared and I did not open it.
At nine o'clock, I think it was about five to nine, I went back to the door, looked at the trailer and got back into the shop again and after a while, I heard some bang. I did not know what was happening.
I screamed in the shop, it was like the whole earth was opening up. I did not know what was happening. I realised that I was alone in the shop. As I was screaming for help, nobody was responding.
I wanted to see, I could not because shrapnels of bottles were in my eyes. As I was screaming for help, I can really say I was moving about like a blind person, feeling and touching things as I was moving about.
I jumped some of things like the mealie meel bags that were there and some people were laying in the shop, quiet. They seemed to have been laying on a wet surface.
MR SINJATSI: Did anybody from your shop lose their lives?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, many people died in the shop.
MR SINJATSI: How many, just for the record, how many people lost their lives in that shop?
MRS PHUNGULA: I would not be able to numerate them, because I could not see, but I did try. I was trying to find balance, trying to get outside.
MR SINJATSI: The white lady you were referring to, was she your employer?
MRS PHUNGULA: No. No, she too was an employee.
MR SINJATSI: What happened to her?
MRS PHUNGULA: She was in the toilet when the bomb exploded. Some people must have picked her up in the toilet where she was laying.
MR SINJATSI: Is she still alive?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, she is still alive.
MR SINJATSI: Do you know Leynette Vicky Labuschagne?
MRS PHUNGULA: I do not understand what she is all about.
MR SINJATSI: Apparently she was also injured or she died from that explosion? That is the white lady?
ADV GCABASHE: Repeat the name.
MR SINJATSI: Leynette Vicky Labuschagne.
MRS PHUNGULA: I would not say whether I know her or not, as I have indicated I could not see.
MR SINJATSI: After this explosion, you were taken to hospital?
MRS PHUNGULA: I went to the outside on my own. I was still trying to explain.
I could not actually move and get out of the shop. A certain lady helped push me out of the shop.
MR SINJATSI: What injuries did you sustain?
MRS PHUNGULA: My eardrum burst. I had a burst eardrum.
MR SINJATSI: Did you receive treatment from hospital on the same day?
MRS PHUNGULA: The treatment that I received in hospital, was reference to the baby that I was carrying in my stomach. The heart beat of the baby was not normal at the time.
That is the kind of treatment that I received. They wanted to operate on me, because they indicated that the heart beat of the baby was not normal, if was feint and after four hours, the baby's heart beat started picking up and the baby could start moving now.
MR SINJATSI: Were you eventually able to deliver the baby on its normal time, that is nine months?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, that is correct.
MR SINJATSI: In other words the baby was delivered in June?
MRS PHUNGULA: That is correct.
MR SINJATSI: Did you after this bomb blast, undergo any operation in respect of your eardrum?
MR SINJATSI: And how are you feeling now, are you completely healed?
MRS PHUNGULA: No, I have not healed completely. My right ear is not functioning.
MR SINJATSI: You listened to the applicants who led evidence for amnesty the whole of this week and last week, is that correct?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, that is correct.
MR SINJATSI: What is your attitude towards them, they now are before this Commission to ask for amnesty. Are you able to reconcile yourself with the situation?
MRS PHUNGULA: Chairperson, I would like to explain something here. I don't understand anything about these amnesty applications that they have submitted.
If I were to be given a chance to ask them, the people who were pushing the trailer in front of the shop, I don't know whether you can allow me to ask them questions.
MR SINJATSI: You are free to speak.
MRS PHUNGULA: It is a pity I don't know their names. I would like to ask you two people, who put the trailer in front of the shop, did you not feel pain or feel sorry for me, you realised that I was pregnant.
You had women and children and you did not care about a pregnant woman like myself. Did you not perhaps think about identifying another target for example, if one of your wives is pregnant and something similar is done to her, what would you say? Did you not feel sorry for me, pregnant as I was at the time, please answer me.
MR SINJATSI: I hear what your concerns are, but I just want you to assist us here. Are you able to reconcile yourself with that situation? I know your feelings, I know it is very difficult.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me help her. The applicants have come to this Committee to apply for amnesty. That means they want to ask this Committee to pardon them and that is what this whole application is about.
The question your Attorney asked you, can you live with that, or what is your attitude towards that application because if they are granted the amnesty, those who would be in jail now, would be released and those who haven't been tried and sentenced, would be exonerated.
MRS PHUNGULA: Chairperson, I understand what you are saying. What I am saying here is that I have no forgiveness for these people, because of what they did.
I would have liked that they not be granted amnesty, they should serve their sentences. We have lost, we have lost so much. Many people have lost their cars because of this, because of politics.
For example, if I were one of the AWB supporters, what would they do because I was not a member of any political organisation. They were sent for political reasons to do what they did. If that was to be the case, I just want to say here that if I listen carefully to what they were saying, they are saying they did not target people, but they wanted to derail the elections.
They would have targeted other places like banks, etc, and not the taxi ranks, that is if they were not targeting black people.
MR SINJATSI: Has this incident in any way effected your family, not particularly yourself, but your husband and perhaps your children?
MRS PHUNGULA: They were effected, very much effected, because my children were no longer the same after the shop was bombed.
They were concerned about their future, the possibility of losing their mother.
MR SINJATSI: I have got no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SINJATSI: .
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Mrs Phungula, the applicants came here because of a situation that took place in the country, and this Committee was appointed as well as the whole Truth and Reconciliation Commission, to see if there is not in a broken country, a possibility of reconciliation.
Do you also understand the workings of this Commission as such?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, I do. I understand how the Commission works, but I personally can say have come from far away with this very same people.
I have been to court during their prosecution after my operation and they gave me very disturbing glances. They were talking in their language which I could not understand.
I have been to their Supreme Court testifying. If they had been instructed to do this, and perhaps if they have any remorse for this, they should have thought about this and expressed it thus.
MS VAN DER WALT: I am not sure that anybody can understand your pain and I also would not like to say that anything you went through, is not exactly how you testified, but would you also not like there to be peace between parties and reconciliation?
MRS PHUNGULA: No, I do not have any forgiveness.
MS VAN DER WALT: So you are also not ready because it is the wishes of the applicants, to reach out their hand to you and to talk to you about this incident, are you not prepared to do that?
MRS PHUNGULA: Chairperson, I don't think that that will make any difference. I did indicate before that I want to ask them a question. They should be the ones giving me answers.
The person that I was carrying, is four years old today. Don't they feel sorry about what they did to me and therefore I am not prepared to talk to them and discuss reconciliation with them.
MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT: .
MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: .
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL: .
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: .
MR LANDMAN: No questions Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LANDMAN: .
MR PRIOR: No questions Mr Chairman.
MR MALAN: Mrs Phungula, the procedure is such here that the applicants cannot now answer you directly, they are not in a position to ask your question.
My question to you, if your lawyer could arrange with their lawyers to see them after or outside, so that they can get an opportunity to answer you, would you be prepared to work with your lawyer, would you consider that?
We don't expect it of you, I am just asking whether you feel you could perhaps consider if they would so wish, to answer the question that you have put to them. You don't even have to answer me, you can just bear that in mind. If that would be possible, it may lead to assisting you to better cope and manage yourself and it may assist them too.
I am just leaving that with you.
MRS PHUNGULA: Chairperson, I still have to think about this, but for now, I really have not decided that I should confer with my lawyer to confer with their lawyers about this.
MR MALAN: I can understand that, thank you very much.
ADV GCABASHE: Mrs Phungula, I would like to ask were there many people there on that day?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, there were many people Chairperson, such that before the elections, it was indicated that we should buy food and stock our food in bulk and taxi's were parked in front of the shop. Many of them, there were many people up and down moving there.
There were many people indeed.
ADV GCABASHE: In other words, these people, the applicants realised that there were many people moving up and down there?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, it is as I put it. They came to the place and must have identified it as a target. They came with their car, but could not find a parking because there were many taxi's and when they came for the second time, the owner of the shop had just left and there was an open parking.
They moved, unhooked the trailer, pushed it. There were many people, some of them sitting there, inside and outside the taxi, drinking tea.
Really there was an up and down movement on that day. It was on the 25th, almost month end.
ADV GCABASHE: Would you please explain were there whites apart from the one white person with whom you were working, were there other white people there?
MRS PHUNGULA: Chairperson, I would like to clarify this. That place is mostly patronaged by blacks. Yes, there were whites but these whites must have been people who were just walking passed. There is a flat nearby and some of these whites, stay there, but mostly there were black people in that area.
ADV GCABASHE: Did they indeed see that you were pregnant?
MRS PHUNGULA: They were looking at me Chairperson, my pregnancy was obvious. I spoke to them in Zulu, asking them as to why they were parking this thing in front of the shop. They were looking at me and I think that they must have concluded that I am dying today.
After parking this trailer, they went back into their car and drove away. Fortunately I was looking at them, I was looking at them, that is why I had to go as far as appearing in court to testify against them.
ADV GCABASHE: In court, would you say none among them came to you to ask for forgiveness?
MRS PHUNGULA: What they did at the end of their court case, when I walked out of the court, they had closed the lifts so that we could not go to the ground floor, and we had to use the staircase. We used the staircase and they used the lift.
I don't know where they disappeared to. That is after I had given my testimony in court.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Phungula this trailer, was it parked amongst the taxi's?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: In front of the shop?
MRS PHUNGULA: It was parked right facing the door to the shop.
CHAIRPERSON: In that vicinity, is that known as a taxi rank?
MRS PHUNGULA: Chairperson, there is a taxi rank in that area, but because there were taxi's in front of the shop, the reason being that they were loading some things, yes, there is a taxi rank nearby.
CHAIRPERSON: How near was the taxi rank from the shop?
MRS PHUNGULA: Chairperson, I would say the taxi rank is - it is in front of the shop. I don't know how to explain this. For example if you are outside of this building, the distance would be the same as that between the taxi rank and the shop, from here to the outside of the building.
CHAIRPERSON: You know, Mrs Phungula, I just want to say that I can quite understand your feelings that you have expressed this afternoon. I appreciate the fact that you have been honest enough to say how angry you are.
But you know, a lot of atrocities have occurred in this country over the past years, some justified, some not.
I can only hope that with time, your anger will diminish and that we can get on with our lives in this new country of ours. I honestly hope that you can be the mother that you want to be to your children.
We have no further questions, thank you. Oh, there is one more question.
MRS PHUNGULA: Thank you very much.
MR MALAN: Mrs Phungula, sorry that I am keeping you. The child next to you, is that your child?
MR MALAN: Is that the one she was pregnant with?
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, that is the one.
MR MALAN: Thank you, we wish he will be a treasure to you and that you will be proud of him in his life to come.
MRS PHUNGULA: Yes, very much so. Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there any other witnesses that we are able to deal with today?
We will then adjourn until half past nine tomorrow. MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, after the discussions in your chambers, I have managed to contact the witnesses that were to arrive tomorrow, and postponed it until September.
CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not switched on)
MR PRIOR: The 14th of September, is that the date?
CHAIRPERSON: This hearing will adjourn until the 14th of September 1998.