Amnesty Hearing

Starting Date 09 December 1998
Day 12
Case Number AM 7373/97
Original File

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, who is next?

MR SIBEKO: The next applicant is Mr Oscar Msibi. His application is on page 96, Lusaka B.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msibi, can you hear?

MR MSIBI: Yes, I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you please stand and then give your full names for the record?

MR MSIBI: My name is Oscar Msibi.

OSCAR MSIBI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Msibi, you have also made an application for amnesty, is that correct?

MR MSIBI: That is correct sir.

MR SIBEKO: Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka B in Thokoza?

MR MSIBI: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the Unit?

MR MSIBI: During 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your Commander?

MR MSIBI: It was Makasonke Mhlope.

MR SIBEKO: Were you ever involved in any incidents where barricades and patrols were made prior to 1993?


MR SIBEKO: Your active involvement in the defence of the community started in 1993, is that correct?

MR MSIBI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: From 1993, do you have specific incidents where you were involved in the defence of the community?

MR MSIBI: Yes, there are certain occurrences that took place, or an occurrence.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about that?

MR MSIBI: I don't remember the year specifically, I don't remember the date, but I do remember that it was during 1993, I was living at Mdambo Street and at my neighbour's place there was a member of Inkatha, who went by the name of Ben Skakane, who was residing at my neighbour's place.

On this particular day, my Commander Makasonke Mhlope, came to my place. Because I knew where this man stayed, we proceeded to his shack and Makasonke at that time, had an AK47 in his possession. We proceeded to the particular shack where this man stayed.

We attacked the shack and fled thereafter.

MR SIBEKO: What time of the day did this incident occur?

MR MSIBI: It was at night, but I am not sure as to the exact time. But Makasonke woke me up from my sleep, so it was quite late.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that you are not in a position to tell us whether Mr Skakane's shack was occupied or there was anybody in the shack when you fired shots towards it?

MR MSIBI: No, I have no clarity because we did not check.

MR SIBEKO: It is possible that there were people inside the shack?

MR MSIBI: No, I do not think that there is anyone who got injured, because we could have heard it the following day. But he came the following day or the day after, to pick up his belongings. I don't know where he went to.

MR SIBEKO: Before we jump to the next day, I want us to clear this up. Okay, was Mr Skakane staying alone in the shack or did he have a family?

MR MSIBI: He lived alone.

MR SIBEKO: But at the time you fired shots, you say you don't know whether he was there or not?

MR MSIBI: Yes, that is what I was saying.

MR SIBEKO: So you believed that he was not there or he was not hurt if he was there, because you saw him the following morning when he came to fetch his belongings?

MR MSIBI: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: I am under the impression that there were a number of shacks in the yard, so that you were the one who identified Mr Skakane's shack, is that correct?

MR MSIBI: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: So you are applying for amnesty for your participation in the attack on Mr Skakane's property?

MR MSIBI: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident where you were involved in as a member of the Unit?

MR MSIBI: Yes, there is.

MR SIBEKO: When did the incident occur and what happened?

MR MSIBI: This is not something that happened, but before I used that gun, I am the one who was collecting the money for the purchase of this particular gun. I don't know whether this is an offence, but I think I will include it in my amnesty application.

MR SIBEKO: You knew that this AK47 that you say you were responsible for collecting money, you knew that it was unlawful to buy and possess it, is that correct?

MR MSIBI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.


CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibeko. Adv Steenkamp, any questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you sir, no questions.


CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Panel?

ADV GCABASHE: Just clarify for me, so the AK47 that Makasonke brought, is the one that you used to shoot at Ben Skakane's shack?

MR MSIBI: It was used by Makasonke himself.

ADV GCABASHE: You see the reason I am asking, is now with the second incident, you say before I used that gun, I collected money for the purchase of that gun.

What are you talking about, which gun did you use and where did you use it?

MR MSIBI: That is the very same gun that was used by Makasonke.

ADV GCABASHE: So in saying before you used it, you are just associating yourself with what Makasonke did because he is the one who physically shot?

MR MSIBI: Yes, I am just associating myself with the deed.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko, any re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, thank you Mr Chairman.


CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msibi, thank you very much, you are excused.


ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, there is some additional information on this incident, if I may just add that to the record.

Mr Chairman and Honourable members, I was informed that Mr Ben Skakane was actually the inhabitant of the shack and at the time of the incident, this informal settlement was uninhabited, there was nobody present at the time of the attack.

Mr Skakane recently left this area, he is now staying somewhere in Khumalo Street, we were however, unable to trace his current address in Khumalo Street.

Thank you Mr Chairman.