CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon again. We'll hear the applications of Kombumini Ngobeni, Muhlavha Muhlavha and Stranger Jabulani Mbhalati. The Panel, it's myself would be chairing, Motata, I'll request my colleagues to place themselves on record.
ADV BOSMAN: Francis Bosman Amnesty Committee Member.
CHAIRPERSON: I would request the legal representatives.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. My name is Brian Koopedi. I appear on behalf of the three named applicants.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi.
MS VILAKAZI: I'm Adv Linda Vilakazi. I appear on behalf of Richard Bustin, who's involved in the Rita Township attack and on behalf of the next of kin of the deceased, Const Shingange. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell the surname of Richard?
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Vilakazi.
MS COLERIDGE: Lyn Coleridge appearing on behalf of the TRC. Chairperson, I just want to place on record the factors in connection with the other victims. In the attack on the SANDF members travelling in a patrol vehicle on the 16th of June in the Rita township, the following persons were also identified as victims. Mr Samuel Sepatake, Mr Mothoka Sebela.
CHAIRPERSON: I think as you proceed just to have the correct spelling, you should spell the surnames for us, start with Samuel.
MS COLERIDGE: Samuel Sepatake, S-E-P-A-T-A-K-E and then the next victim, Mothoka, M-O-T-H-O-K-A Sebela, S-E-B-E-L-A, then the next victim Manyana Moagi, M-O-A-G-I and then Mr M A Rasebotse, R-A-S-E-B-O-T-S-E. We advertised in the newspapers regarding this incident, Chairperson, on the 19th of April 2000 and then we also advertised, we were trying to locate the implicated person in this matter, Mr Sililo Makwala. I'll spell Makwala, M-A-K-W-A-L-A.
Then the next incident Chairperson, this is the attack on SANDF members on the 12th of April 1990 at Ritavi District at the stadium, the following were also victims in this incident. Mr Daniel Ludeke, L-U-D-E-K-E, Deon van der Merwe, Nicholas Swartz, S-W-A-R-T-Z, Mr W N P Snyman, Mr P Malherbe and Mr Ndlovu. And then just in relation to the other victims in the Shingange matter, well Lily Mthembo is here today Chairperson and Jack Mthembo as well. Mr Isaac Ngobeni, he has been informed of this incident Chairperson, he is aware of the hearing as well and that concludes the list of the victims, Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Ms Coleridge. Mr Koopedi, are you in a position to proceed and if you are, in what language or languages would the applicants testify?
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson we are in a position to proceed. The applicants will use the English language. You might note that we tried to supply you with statements which are in English, but we have arranged with the interpreter that should there be a problem, the interpreter will assist us with the Tsisonga language, but for now we would want to say we think we could proceed in English.
Perhaps before anyone is sworn in, I would like to firstly apply for condonation of the fact that all the application forms have not been attested, that is for the three applicants. And then perhaps also to find out from my learned friend if this application is opposed, because at the moment I do not know if we have opposition and if the application is opposed, it would assist if one knows the basis of the opposition so that we can cover the areas. Thank you Chairperson. I'll start with you Ms Coleridge, in respect of the non attestation. Do you have any objection?
MS COLERIDGE: No Chairperson, I have no objection.
CHAIRPERSON: Miss Vilakazi are you objecting?
MS VILAKAZI: No objection Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Your application is successful.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I'll start with you. Mr Koopedi wants to know whether you are opposing and if so, just briefly what would be your opposition to the applications.
MS VILAKAZI: My instructions from Richard Bustin is not to oppose the application in respect of the Rita Township incident and in respect of the Shingange murder, my instructions from the widow Florence Shingange are not to oppose the application as well, but to present her evidence with regard to the effects of the killing of her husband on herself and on her family, as well as to present the evidence of Lily Mthembo Shingange who is the sister to the deceased and who was present at the time when Mr Shingange was attacked and killed. Thank you Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Coleridge. ...(inaudible - no microphone) ... you have mentioned to us opposing?
MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson no, we have informed the SANDF of these applications, that's General Slabbert. We've had no indication from any of the other victims that I've mentioned, Chairperson, neither from the SANDF to oppose the applications, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: I won't repeat that, Mr Koopedi. You are right here, you heard what they said.
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, Chairperson, I did, thanks.
CHAIRPERSON: With whom are you going to start first?
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson the appearance or the tendering of evidence will be in the order as prepared in the bundle of documents and the first applicant will be Mr Ngobeni and may I indicate Chairperson, that Mr Ngobeni will prefer to make an affirmation as opposed to the oath. Thank you Chairperson. Mr Ngobeni, would I be pronouncing your second name Kombumini correct?
CHAIRPERSON: Firstly give us your full names for the record.
JOHN KOMBUMELE NGOBENI: (affirmed states)
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members.
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Mr Ngobeni is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter?
MR KOOPEDI: Now I am showing to you page 1 of the bundle of documents, Chairperson. I am showing you a document. Is this your application form?
MR KOOPEDI: And on page 6 of the same bundle of documents, there's a signature appearing at the bottom. Is that your signature?
MR KOOPEDI: Now Mr Ngobeni, would you briefly tell this Honourable Committee what happened and why you're making this application?
"I joined the ANC in 1977 in Mozambique. I then went to complete O levels for two years at Sierra Leone. I then went to ...(indistinct) Tanzania, where I stayed until March 1980. I then went to Cuba to study Chemical Engineering. I returned in 1986 and went to Dakawa, Tanzania. In 1987 I was sent to Angola to do military training. Thereafter I went to Zambia to await infiltration into the country.
In 1989 I was infiltrated into the country and I came through via Swaziland. I was sent to Tzaneen area to operate there. My mission was to reconnoitre and establish an MK presence in the area. I had orders to establish underground units which I commanded. I also trained and recruited MK cadres in the area. One of my units consisted of myself as Commander, James, I do not know his real name, but he was from ...(indistinct) in the Northern Province and he passed away in 1997/98, Sililo, I do not know his real name but I think he might still be alive, Mathousan, I do not know his real name, but I believe he was from Johannesburg and Muhlava Muhlava. These youth was responsible for the attack on the SADF members at Nkuakua stadium on the 12th April 1990. During this period there was a lot of political activity in the area and the SADF were deployed in the area to suppress political activity. The SADF were, in the first place, a legitimate target and secondly, by attacking them, we were ...(indistinct) the matters showing them that the soldiers were also vulnerable. The soldiers were based at Nkuakua stadium.
On the 12th April 1990, at about 18h00 we all went to the stadium. Muhlava was driving us. We parked two streets away from the stadium. Muhlava remained in the car. The four of us went to the stadium. We were armed with two AK47 rifles, two pistols and about twelve hand grenades, F1's and RGD 5's. James Sililo and Mathousan took positions and threw the hand grenades. About five or six exploded and thereafter the three retreated and I covered their retreat by firing to the soldiers using the AK47. We then all got to the car and Muhlava drove us away.
The second incident which occurred on the 15th June 1990 was carried out by myself, Sililo and co-applicant Stranger Mbhalati. Shingange was a well-known Security Policeman who was very notorious for harassing political activists. My unit had decided that Singange should be eliminated to show the other black policeman that it is not safe to follow the footsteps of Shingange.
On the day in question we went to Nkuakua stadium, to Nkuakua township next to a police, the place where there was to be a funeral of a relative of Shingange. We expected Shingange to be in the area. We took up different positions, planning to ambush him when he appeared.
Shingange apparently appeared on Sililo's side, who shot at him. Apparently Shingange had passengers in the car. We were armed with hand grenades and two AK47s. After the shooting we retreated. Sililo told me that he only shot at the driver. He told me further that soldiers appeared almost as from nowhere and he threw a hand grenade which did not explode.
The third incident involves me, Sililo and Stranger. Our target was Rasebotse, the then Station Commander, ...(indistinct) police station. Our unit had decided that by hitting a person as senior as him, we would be bolstering the courage of the political activists in the area. The idea was to ambush him. We went to Rita, the village where he stays. It was at about 22h00 when his vehicle approached. There was an SADF armoured van in front of it. The occupants of the van must have spotted us as they turned and shone the lights on us. We then shot at them. We were having two AK47s and hand grenades. The Aks were held by Sililo and myself. We then retreated in different directions to rendezvous. On the route to the rendezvous, I had to jump the fence of Maake Technical School and in the process I dropped a hand grenade. I tried to look for it but could not find it. I then left. Two days thereafter I went to look for the hand grenade. I did not find it because of the tall grass. I then went away. After a week or two when I went to the area, the place was filled with soldiers and people were saying someone had picked up a bomb and it had killed him. I suspect this is the hand grenade that I lost."
MR KOOPEDI: Now Mr Ngobeni, would you say that the incidents, the three incidents you have referred this Honourable Committee to, had a political motive?
MR NGOBENI: Definitely yes. All these instances had a political motive.
MR KOOPEDI: Would you tell the Honourable Committee, what would the motive be, the political motive?
MR NGOBENI: The political motive is that as we all know, maybe as we could say is that the Security Forces in the past were there to defend the apartheid government, which was not a good government for everybody but just for the minority people in the country, namely the whites, so the idea behind it, eliminating members of the Security Forces was to make it a point that looking at the government so as to come nearer to achieving liberation. That was the real motive behind the whole process.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now, did you get any personal gain for having involved yourself in these incidents? Was there any personal gain that you got, monetary value or anything of the sort?
MR NGOBENI: To be honest, when we joined the struggle, there was no promise for money for material benefits or anything like that. The whole idea was just to make it a point that you make you minor contribution to push this country to a situation whereby you can help a democratic establishment.
MR KOOPEDI: So the answer is no, you got now personal ...? ...(speaking simultaneously)
MR NGOBENI: No, no personal ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously)
MR KOOPEDI: Now, in as far as your memory can assist you, have you given full disclosure of all the relevant facts in these three incidents?
MR NGOBENI: As far as I remember this is exactly what happened.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. That will be the evidence-in-chief for this witness thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Vilakazi.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI: With regard to the shooting of Shingange, you have said on page two of your statement, you say that, in the last paragraph, the fifth line from the bottom, you said: "Shingange apparently appeared on Sililo's side, who shot at him." Now from the statement that you have made, you are not the one who killed Shingange, is that correct?
MS VILAKAZI: Now on what basis are you applying for amnesty for his death?
MR NGOBENI: In the army we have got people who take decisions and in that case I was commanding the unit. I'm the one who issued the order that Shingange must be eliminated, so I must apply for it.
MS VILAKAZI: And after Shingange was killed, my instructions are that the family was harassed and even the funeral arrangements were - even the funeral had people coming in and people who came in as "monas" were harassed, do you know anything about that? What information can you share about that?
MR NGOBENI: I am a soldier, as far as I know that had to do with the family arrangements and unless if they come and say that I was involved, I was never involved in the funeral, the only thing that I know of is that I was involved in the operation, but as far as the funeral was concerned, I don't know anything about it.
MS VILAKAZI: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Vilakazi. Ms Coleridge, anything?
MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE: I just want to refer to page one of your statement that you handed in. You stated at paragraph 2, the third line
"I had orders to establish underground units, which I commanded."
MR NGOBENI: I was a member of MK by then. Our Senior Commander was Jo Modise, but then I had other people were commanding me. In between Jo Modise and myself, there were other Commanders like the person I only knew as Thabo or Timen.
MS COLERIDGE: And were you Commanders aware of these operations that you were planning? I'm talking about these three operations we're dealing with?
MR NGOBENI: It will be very much difficult to explain these things, but let me simplify it in this way. When you are trained militarily, you are taught what is called- you are taught to identify the enemy, then on that basis you know who to target and who not to target. Under certain circumstances, you can get orders to say that: "Deal with this person", but under certain circumstances, you as a Commander on the ground, you choose which person to deal with, based on the information that you have.
CHAIRPERSON: But the question is that did you report back?
MR NGOBENI: Each action that I participated in, no matter how minor it could have been, a report was sent back to my Commanders.
MS COLERIDGE: What kind of report was that? A written report or a verbal report, can you elaborate on that?
MR NGOBENI: When you have to use a courier it was not always possible to send a written report, you could only send some sort of a verbal report to say: "This is what happened", but sometimes when you jump the border to go and make a report on what happened, then the Commander had ample time to draft a report on what happened, after you have given him a minor briefing.
MS COLERIDGE: Did you report personally, or did you send someone else to do the reporting on your behalf?
MS COLERIDGE: Did you report back personally, or did you send someone else to report back on your behalf?
MR NGOBENI: For some instances I had to go and report personally, but for others, I had to send couriers.
MS COLERIDGE: And in these instances, the three?
MR NGOBENI: The three, I remember in the first one, because at one stage we had to retreat, so I had to give a full personal report when I reached outside.
CHAIRPERSON: By saying when you reached outside, are you implying that you went back?
MR NGOBENI: I had to go back to Swaziland to report the matter.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ma'am.
MS COLERIDGE: I see that Sililo was involved in some of these instances with you. You mention him in the second incident, that's the 15th of June incident and in the third incident. Is this Sililo the same person, is it Sililo Makwala?
MR NGOBENI: I do not know Sililo Makwala, I don't know that other person. The one that I'm talking about is only known as Sililo and this is a name that we were using. In our operational activities we never used to get used to people's real names because it was dangerous, so we had a name to use for him.
MS COLERIDGE: Why I'm asking you, just on page 48 of the bundle there's a statement by Christopher Sililo Makwala and he was the person that you asked to identify Mr Rasebotse and I just wondered whether it was the same person.
MR NGOBENI: Alright. I think, I'm not very much sure because I don't know this - ja, I know this person. This person was there when we attacked, when we shot at the SADF at Rita Village, he was there, this one.
MS COLERIDGE: That's it. Is it the same Sililo, or is a different person?
MR NGOBENI: No it's not the same Sililo, there's another Sililo I'm talking about.
MS COLERIDGE: Okay, that clarifies that for me. Just on the second incident on the 15th of June, that's on page 2, it was stated that
"Sililo told me,"
that's the last paragraph, third line from the bottom,
"he only shot at the driver."
Do you know how many shots were fired?
MR NGOBENI: I did not get the number of shots fired but what I know is that it's very much difficult to cope with the number of shots when you are under an operational situation.
MS COLERIDGE: Was Sililo the only one firing shots?
MR NGOBENI: He's the only who fired.
MS COLERIDGE: Just for your information that Lily was also injured in this incident, Lily Mthembo Shingange.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Coleridge, are you saying that she was one of the occupants of the car?
MS COLERIDGE: That's correct, Chairperson, she was in the vehicle as well. And there's just one last aspect. On page twenty-nine of the bundle, I just want to clarify in the Daniel Leduke incident, he states, that is the 12th of April, the attack on the SADF members at the stadium, he states that, at paragraph four, that he'd seen about five persons that were with you and I just want to clarify. how many people were with you involved in that incident?
MR NGOBENI: Can I be honest with you on one thing? When we attacked the SADF, the people who actually staged the attack, we were four. The other person who was driving, was about two streets from the place we were attacking and the attack took a very, very short space of time. I'm sure it was about less than five minutes, I would say and it was a surprise attack, so it's difficult that any person could have said that he or she managed to spot certain people, because we had very good information about the situation there.
CHAIRPERSON: Just to put it in perspective, Daniel Leduke says that he saw about five people and he could see half of their bodies, but his estimating is not precise, do you follow what I'm saying?
MS COLERIDGE: That's correct, Chairperson, thank you. And then a question regarding your weapons. Who supplied you with your arms and ammunition?
MR NGOBENI: My Commander supplied me.
MS COLERIDGE: Which Commanders?
MS COLERIDGE: And then just for the first incident, how long did it take for you to plan this operation on the 12th of April 1990 at the stadium?
MR NGOBENI: Could you repeat the question?
MS COLERIDGE: The 12th of April 1990, the attack on the SANDF members at the stadium, how long did it take for you to plan this operation?
MR NGOBENI: I don't know what you'll be referring to specifically because what happens is that for over two weeks or three weeks, we were busy collecting information about the activities of the SADF at the Nkuakua stadium. We were studying their movements and so on and so on and as far as I'm concerned, ...(indistinct), that constituted part of the planning so in such a way that at the end of the day the actual execution was finalising the plans.
MS COLERIDGE: And the other matter, the Shingange matter, how long did it take for you to plan that operation?
MR NGOBENI: As far as Shingange is concerned, we knew long ago about his activities and the other thing is that we had a very good understanding of what the Security Branch was all about and what danger they were presenting to us as MK members and people in the community, so it was an issue of simply monitoring him and checking his movements and doing away with him.
MS COLERIDGE: And the third incident?
MR NGOBENI: The third incident is that at one stage round about June in 1990, there was a march around Lenyenye whereby activists ended up being shambokked and some of them were even beaten up, so that was the culmination, that was something that somehow compelled us to react, because we knew that the person in the name of Rasebotse, or Rakgabe as we used to call him, was very much troublesome and he was the Station Commander there at Lenyenye, so what we did, we knew he was moving between the police station and his home every now and then. We had to go and sit and wait for him in between the two places and unfortunately that day the SADF was escorting him, that's how we managed to clash with them, they were not the intended targets on that day, they simply took over something that did not have anything to do with them.
CHAIRPERSON: If I may interpose, how was it troublesome?
MR NGOBENI: To start with, like the Security Branch Members, Rasebotse was notorius for harassing activists, he issued instructions that they should be detained and assaulted. He was responsible for working very much closely also with the Security Branch officers in Tzaneen whereby, as far as we were concerned, they were busy exchanging information that was working against the committees and the activists of us, as members of MK. So on that basis we felt that was a legitimate target so we had to eliminate him, but then like you know, the end result did not take our own turn, it happened the other way around.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he with the uniformed police, that is him?
CHAIRPERSON: With the uniformed police, because you say he was colluding with the Security Branch?
MR NGOBENI: The situation in the Bantustans was that all people in senior positions were ex-members of the Security Branch and they were working very much closely with the Security Branch and they were taking instructions from them, that is the reason why we had to deal with him at that level.
CHAIRPERSON: These activists you are talking about in the area, were they of any political organisation, or what activities were they involved in?
MR NGOBENI: They were members of what I would call the mass democratic movement. You had members of the local structures or maybe the local - the youth organisation, that used to be called South ...(indistinct), so we had local versions in the area like MYCRO and other structures and in the different villages we had all those people, but on top of that, putting aside all those ones, we had known underground members of the ANC who were active in the area, who were constantly harassed by this type of people, that's why we had to act.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry about that. You may continue Ms Coleridge.
MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson. Just one last question. Were any of you granted indemnity for any of these activities?
MR NGOBENI: It's difficult to tell because I was also involved in the application for indemnity, but to date I don't know whether I've been granted that indemnity or not. I do not know.
MS COLERIDGE: I'm just asking that in relation to a statement I have seen of Mrs Shingange, that's the wife of the deceased and her impression was that they were granted indemnity, so I was just wanting to check as well.
MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson. I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-exam thank you Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, any questions?
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Ngobeni, at the time of the incidents, except perhaps for the first one, I'm not sure of my dates, the former President Nelson Mandela had already been released.
MR NGOBENI: I do not want to commit myself, but I know that at some stages, Mr Mandela was released, but I don't want to commit myself, I'm not very much sure here.
ADV BOSMAN: Yes, I'm not quite sure about the first incident, but the release of President Mandela, didn't that have any influence on your decision-making at all?
MR NGOBENI: I am actually a soldier, I must be honest. I was a soldier at that time. I didn't take instructions from newspaper statements, whatever they published there, or what the TV was saying. I had to get instructions from my Commander. If I were to get an instruction saying you stop attacking, I could have stopped, but I never got such and as such I had to continue.
ADV BOSMAN: But according to your statement and your evidence, your orders were to establish underground units. Did that also entail an order for attacks?
MR NGOBENI: The underground units that were established, had two issues to accomplish. There were military and political objectives, so as far as those missions, or those objectives are concerned, I think they accomplished them.
ADV BOSMAN: At what time did the information that President Mandela had been released and that the political process was taking shape, reach you as soldiers in that area?
MR NGOBENI: Like any person who was inside South Africa, even the day on which President Mandela was released, I knew about it. What you must understand, or what we need to understand maybe is like I'm saying, I was a soldier, I had specific objectives to do and I could not simply get it from the radio or the newspaper to say no I must stop things I was supposed to do. That I could not do. Just as much as the other side, or my opponents did not stop harassing us on the basis of Mandela being released, on the basis of the announcement that was made by F W de Klerk, it did not make change on what I was doing because it had got to filter down in a proper way.
ADV BOSMAN: The reason why I'm asking you these questions is that you did mention that it was not your intention to attack the SADF in the one incident and does it not have something to do with the fact that these incidents took place in the erstwhile Bantustan areas, didn't that have something to do with it?
MR NGOBENI: Can I clarify that one?
MR NGOBENI: Why I was saying would not ...(indistinct) we mean that according to the information that we had, we were not going to have contact with the SADF there at Rita. The person we targeted was Rakgabe, or Rasebotse, so what happened is that because he knew that maybe we were also only following him, he came in the company of members of the SADF who, on seeing us that we are along the road and we look suspicious, maybe for them, then they turned the car and shone the lights on us and then we had to respond because we could not simply run away, we had to respond, but when we say they were not our intended targets, we mean to say that according to our plans, that day it was not their day, but it belonged to Rasebotse.
ADV BOSMAN: Are you saying then that the SADF could have been a legitimate target had the circumstances been different? During that time, would you have regarded the SADF as a legitimate target, had the circumstances...?
MR NGOBENI: Definitely yes, they were a legitimate target.
ADV BOSMAN: At what time did you stop regarding the SADF as a legitimate target? Did you get any particular instructions or was it only after the armed struggle was formally suspended?
MR NGOBENI: I do not know how to put it because I was arrested in August 1990, so I don't know what happened thereafter. When I came out of jail in May 1991, then there was no longer military activities being carried out, so I don't answer for those who remained outside.
ADV BOSMAN: Because you were in prison, I understand.
MR NGOBENI: Yes. I was arrested.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you. Thank you Chairperson.
ADV SIGODI: No questions, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngobeni, these weapons you say were supplied to you by your Commander Timen. When did he supply them to you?
MR NGOBENI: Let me say to be on the safe side, they were supplied as from February 1990, but I cannot be in a position to give specific days on which they were supplied.
CHAIRPERSON: When they were now supplied, it's after you had already established these underground units?
MR NGOBENI: Yes, Mr Chairperson. What happened is that I had a mission to establish myself and establish a unit in the area, after which I had to go back and report and say no, the situation is okay, everything is in place, then they would give me the necessary tools to work with, that's when I was supplied with these weapons.
CHAIRPERSON: Had you informed your Commander what operations you had identified by then before these weapons were supplied to you?
MR NGOBENI: I had to give a full briefing to my Commander about the situation in my operational area when I went to report to him before I got these weapons. I told him the situation, the type of oppressive activities which were being carried out by members of the Security Forces, I told him about the measure of harassment that we were objected to, I told him about all those things which were happening and on the basis of that I got the weapons and I even told him that my information allows that I can carry a number of activities, but as he was that side and I was inside, I was the Commander on the ground and I had to identify operations which then I carried out and then I reported to him.
CHAIRPERSON: Now members of the unit, you were the only one trained outside, the rest you trained inside the country, that is the same Mathousan, Sililo, Muhlava, would I be correct that you were the only one trained from outside?
MR NGOBENI: No, the people who were trained outside were four in my unit. Only Muhlava then was not trained outside at that time, Sir and Stranger Mbhalati, the two of them were not people who were trained outside.
CHAIRPERSON: Who trained them, that is Mbhalati and Muhlava.
MR NGOBENI: Muhlava - without pre-empting what maybe could be his presentation, I also had a hand in assisting in his training.
CHAIRPERSON: How long, if you put in a hand, how long did you hand stretch in training them?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Let's take Mbhalati for instance, Mr Mbhalati for instance, how long?
MR NGOBENI: Ja, Mr Chairperson, we didn't keep records of how long a person is trained, but we looked t whether a person was grasping what we were teaching him or her, then on the basis of that it would be a longer process or a shorter process and what basically we were doing was to deal with the issue of political mobilisation and to also show these people how to operate firearms. We are talking about pistols, we are talking about AK47s, we are talking about giving them briefings on how to used hand grenades, we are talking about giving them briefings on how to go about maintaining security, or gathering intelligence which was necessary for us to carry out our activities.
CHAIRPERSON: And what about the hand grenades. Did they get any teaching about the hand grenades, for instance the F1's and the RGD5's?
MR NGOBENI: Basically what we were teaching them about those hand grenades is that to know basic things about what we call operational characteristics or combat characteristics of those hand grenades, to know that an F1 is mainly used for defensive purposes and that is the splinters are dangerous in this way or that way and that the RGD 5 is an offensive hand grenade. Basically it works on shocks and so on and so on. Those were things we were giving them and to know that this things are very much dangerous while they are armed and teach them all the ...(indistinct) measures which were necessary.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you say on page two of the statement you read out that Shingange was notorious for harassing political activists, what was he doing? Was he following in the footsteps of Rasebotse?
CHAIRPERSON: Following in the footsteps of Rasebotse, or what was he doing?
MR NGOBENI: It's difficult maybe to explain but if we were to be in an area like Tzaneen where I was operating, it will be very much difficult to find one political activist who did not hate Shingange at that moment. Not simply because they hated him but because of what he was doing to them. It would be very much difficult.
CHAIRPERSON: I just want an instance to have an idea what this harassment entailed because you know it merely becomes a word like probably using the three saying notorious for harassing political activists, who was that?
MR NGOBENI: Can I try to explain it maybe in this way? what used to happen in the area, I don't know about other places, but people used to be detained and be interrogated or maybe even hit. What would happen is that in all those incidents, Shingange would be involved and he was working very much closely, like you know with these people who were stationed at Tzaneen, whereas he was staying in Nkuakua at that moment.
CHAIRPERSON: Now I just want to understand this in context. You say that would be from line three, paragraph 3 on page two
"My unit had decided that Shingange should be eliminated to show the other black policemen that it is not safe to follow the footsteps of Shingange."
MR NGOBENI: Can I explain something? Can I explain - give you an answer to what you are saying and then elaborate a little bit?
MR NGOBENI: What happens is that if you say that they should stop following in his footsteps, we had this thing of saying that it is not right for people who are all oppressed to also side with the side that is carrying on with that operation and so on that basis we thought that he was ...(indistinct), we could eliminate him, but let me go deeper and explain because it might look very much superficial and something like a grudge between me or my unit and the person who is deceased.
CHAIRPERSON: At first blush it creates that impression.
MR NGOBENI: The basic point of departure here is that the whole might of the Security Forces in the past depended mainly on these members of the Security Branch who were black, because they know where we're playing, where we're praying, where we go for drinks, this or that, they were the only people who could identify us as targets for the might of the Security Forces in the past. The white people who were stationed in these urban areas, they never ventured into these black areas so they did not know who is John Ngobeni, they had never met him in their lives, so the only people who were useful to the Security Forces to identify and eliminate or detain people who were called terrorists, were these black people, that's why they were very much dangerous militarily, they were the real targets. It's not an issue of saying that maybe you have some sort of adventures with that person. No, no, no, militarily they were playing a very important role for the armed forces and for the Security Forces in general, so if you were to remove the Security Branch in the past, maybe the black members, it would have been very much difficult for the Security Forces to deal or maybe to identify and eliminate those people that tempt their enemies or the terrorists. It could have been very much difficult, so that's why these people were actually very legitimate as far as activities are concerned. For the record I could say that if it was just an issue of simply killing, we could have killed a lot of these members of the so-called Gazankulu Police, Lebowa Police, they were very innocent, they didn't even know what was happening as far as I'm concerned. We would sit and spend some time with them at different places, share same transport means with them, but they would not even smell that something is wrong, but not these members of the Security Branch, these were the most dangerous ones, so militarily you have to identify the weaknesses and the strengths of the enemy and he was on the stronger part, he was making the enemy to be more strong because of what he was doing and what he knew about us as black people involved in these weapons.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you say that there was a funeral of a relative of him, that is Shingange, did you know when he was going to arrive at the funeral?
MR NGOBENI: As far as I know, when you have a relative who has passed away, it might not be known exactly what time you are going to arrive there, but at the end of the day you arrive there, so we had time on our side, we had to stage what I say a stationary observation there to see what's happening.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you know in whose company he would be attending the funeral with?
MR NGOBENI: We did not know the people who would be accompanying him, but we knew that he was moving in a specific van that belonged to the Security Branch.
CHAIRPERSON: In a situation like this that we know somebody would attend a funeral and let me firstly speak to you as a black man, that if you have a vehicle, you would give other people lifts because motor vehicular transport is scarce when it comes to blacks. Did you foresee that Mr Shingange would come with other people in his company in that van?
MR NGOBENI: Mr Chairperson, the situation that I'm trying to indicate here, if you look at the report about what exactly happened on the day in question, if the execution did not take into consideration the fact that black people do share transport means, then we could not be talking about one person who is late now, we could be talking about a number of people who are dead, because what would have happened, you could have put this AK47 at the automatic level and then simply spray everybody who is there, but there was some sort of consideration of the people who were there and on the basis of that instruction that the Commander gave and what the operator did on the ground, so that's why at the end of the day, the only person who was affected as far as passing away is concerned, is the person that we wanted to eliminate.
CHAIRPERSON: Even when you had put these automatic weapons into singular firing line, but we know that for instance an AK47 is a heavy calibre weapon, don't we?
CHAIRPERSON: That in shooting it might even injure people next to such persons, that we should know, don't we?
CHAIRPERSON: So why I'm asking you this, I want to say to you, I'm asking you if you made other contingency plans that if Shingange comes with other people, how would their lives be avoided because we've just heard from Ms Coleridge that Lily Nthembo got injured in the process?
MR NGOBENI: The plan that we had was that it was an open bakkie, the plan that we had was that if it comes loaded with people on the back part of it, it would be very much difficult to single out a driver from the other people, then the mission should be dropped. That was the only contingency plan that we had.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Ngobeni. Mr Koopedi anything arising from what the Panel asked?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing arises Chairperson and that would conclude the application for Mr Ngobeni. I would ask leave to proceed with the next applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone) ...this case?
MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so. We're closing his application.