Amnesty Hearing

Type AMNESTY HEARINGS
Starting Date 02 October 1997
Location PORT ELIZABETH
Day 3
Names NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN
Case Number 4358/96
URL http://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54819&t=&tab=hearings
Original File http://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/mother4.htm

CHAIRPERSON: Today is October the 2nd, we are continuing with

the same set of applications. Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, my learned friend, Mr Cornelius will

proceed with the evidence of Mr Vermeulen.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: (Duly sworn, states).

EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr

Chairperson. Mr Vermeulen, you have completed an application in

terms of Act 34/1995 and it was handed on the 13th of December

and that is the application mentioned on page 160, 166 of the

application?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: As appears from page 169 you gave your full co-

operation to the Investigation Committee of the Truth and

Reconciliation Commission, the investigating team of the Attorney-

General's office and you also agreed to testify against your former

colleagues in the Motherwell Supreme Court trial. Is that correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And as a result of your evidence inter alia a

conviction followed.

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you received an indemnity in terms of

Section 204 of the Criminal Procedure Act?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Was an opportunity given to you to make further

representations to the honourable presiding Judge to be able to

qualify for a Section 204 indemnity?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And you haven't yet received judgment on that?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You have read or attached the documents and

records of the Supreme Court trial?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: The Chairperson pointed out that we should get

to the matter in hand very quickly. You were in the service of

Section C(1) of the South African Police special unit there?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And you served there from 1985 to 1992? Is that

correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause that in December of 1989

you were summoned to the offices of Mr Eugene de Kock, who was

the commanding officer of the C Unit, correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And yourself, Lionel Snyman, Deon Nieuwoudt

and Martiens Ras were present?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What instructions or orders did you receive

there?

MR VERMEULEN: The order which we received was to travel to

Port Elizabeth, to carry out a task.

MR CORNELIUS: What was this task?

MR VERMEULEN: The task was to in respect of members who

had defected and given information to the ANC/SACP, to eliminate

such members.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard this order as a justified one?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard it as being in the national

interest?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause that you left there with two

Vlakplaas vehicles and you drove to Port Elizabeth. You and Lionel

Snyman in the one car and Deon Nieuwoudt and Martiens Ras as

well.

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What happened when you arrived in Port

Elizabeth? Did you go to a so-called safe house and you stayed

there overnight. Is that correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: The next morning you and Deon Nieuwoudt and

the rest of your comrades travelled to a remote area outside of Port

Elizabeth. Is that correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Would you be able to identify that area again?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Why not?

MR VERMEULEN: Because I am not familiar with Port Elizabeth

and it would be difficult for me to point that area out again.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes, and it has also appeared from evidence

before the Commission that you were in fact misled in that all kinds

of circuitous routes were taken with you to mislead you.

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And that is also the reason why you gave weak

testimony in the court, you were in fact misled.

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: When you arrived in the area, as appears from

previous applications, there was a white Jetta car which had been

prepared.

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What had been done to this car?

MR VERMEULEN: Explosives had been placed in the boot and

also in the passenger cabin.

MR CORNELIUS: What type of explosives?

MR VERMEULEN: Use was made of commercial explosive and

also military type of explosive.

MR CORNELIUS: And the detonator mechanism, what was that?

MR VERMEULEN: The detonator was a radio-controlled

detonator.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you assist in the placing of the explosives?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Were you present, should you be needed?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Who actually placed the explosives in the car?

MR VERMEULEN: It was Mr Waal du Toit and Mr Kobus Kock.

MR CORNELIUS: After the vehicle had been prepared, what

happened then?

MR VERMEULEN: We then moved back to Port Elizabeth.

MR CORNELIUS: That evening, along with Snyman and Ras you

returned to the so-called Motherwell crossing, is that correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: After that, where did you go?

MR VERMEULEN: From the crossing, Motherwell crossing, we

went to the place where the Vlakplaas vehicle had been secreted and

I stayed behind there.

MR CORNELIUS: Why did you stand behind?

MR VERMEULEN: I stayed behind to look after the vehicles.

MR CORNELIUS: How far was this point from the Motherwell

crossing where the bomb actually exploded?

MR VERMEULEN: About two to three kilometres.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you tell the Committee what happened later?

MR VERMEULEN: I waited at the vehicles and about 45 minutes

later Mr Ras and Mr Snyman arrived there, and told me that the

operation had been successful. We then got back into our vehicles

and drove to Pretoria.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you hear the sound of an explosion or see a

flash?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Why not?

MR VERMEULEN: Was too far away from that area.

MR CORNELIUS: When you returned to Pretoria, did you report to

Mr De Kock, Lieut De Kock?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: What would have happened, Mr Vermeulen if

you had not carried out Eugene de Kock's orders?

MR VERMEULEN: If I hadn't carried out the orders, there is a

good chance that I would have lost my job and that perhaps I could

have been eliminated.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you fear that?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: As the honourable Judge said you found yourself

in a Catch 22 situation?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Your loyalty would have been seriously

questioned if you didn't carry out the orders?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And since you possessed extremely sensitive

information you would have posed a serious threat?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: You had been involved in many operations

before the Motherwell operation of '89?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you also operate on the need to know

strategy?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: You were not aware of the fact that there was a

ZN detonator, Soviet-origin detonator left on the scene?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: And at that stage you were not aware of the fact

that you were deliberately misled by other colleagues, so that you

couldn't make this identification?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Vermeulen, did you believe that you were

acting in the national interest?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: These acts which you committed, they are

obviously illegal acts, what was your political objective?

MR VERMEULEN: My political objective was that the members

who had given information to the ANC/SACP, they at that stage,

they were my enemy.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard these members as supporters of

the ANC?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Or associates of the ANC?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you at all times act within the normal course

and scope of your duties?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you feel that your execution of your duties

had the approval of your superiors?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that any order which you carried

out, was in direct compliance with the authority structure in the

security police?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you act in a bona fide manner?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you at all times believe that your conduct

was promoting the objectives of your employer?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And that it enjoyed the approval of your

employer?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Even though these actions were illegal?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you benefit personally from this Motherwell

incident?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you know the victims?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you entertain any personal malice against

these victims?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You are applying for amnesty, on page 179 of

the application for all common law crimes and offences which may

arise from the Motherwell incident, as well as conspiracy to commit

murder and being an accomplice to murder and any other civil

damages which may arise from this.

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr

Chairperson, Hugo on behalf of Mr De Kock. Mr Vermeulen, can

you recall whether Mr Nieuwoudt was present at Vlakplaas when Mr

De Kock gave you the order?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Can you tell us what the precise purport was of the

motive explained to you by Mr De Kock, the motive for the

operation?

MR VERMEULEN: That there were members in the PE security

branch who had been causing problems and that an operation had to

be carried out in Port Elizabeth.

MR HUGO: Did Mr De Kock at any stage indicate an Askari or

Askaris?

MR VERMEULEN: As far as I can recall there were three people

and an askari.

MR HUGO: Yes, but the question is; did Mr De Kock use the word

Askari or Askaris when he told you about the problems these people

were causing?

MR VERMEULEN: I can't answer that because I can't remember it

well. As far as I can recall, I am sure that the word Askari was

used.

MR HUGO: And are you saying that Mr De Kock told you that

these people were in the process of going over to the ANC or had

already done so?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR HUGO: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

MR BOOYSENS: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

MR JANSEN: No questions, Mr Chairman, on behalf of Snyman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR KEMP

MR JANSEN VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, maybe I should just

come on record to say on behalf of applicant Ras there is also no

questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I apologise, I overlooked you, I'm

sorry. Yes, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FORD: Thank you, Mr

Chairman, for and on behalf of Mrs Mgoduka and Mrs Faku. Mr

Vermeulen, do I understand your evidence to be that your colleagues

during the preparation stages in Port Elizabeth, deliberately

confused you or misled you with regard to the identities of those

participating, was that the effect of your evidence?

MR VERMEULEN: No, the evidence is that they misled us by not

finding the proper venue where the car was prepared.

MR FORD: I see. So you were aware at all times of all of those

involved in the preparation of the bomb in the motor vehicle, by

whom the motor vehicle was brought, et cetera?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR FORD: Was Mr Lotz at any stage present?

MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, I have never seen him at the

scene.

MR FORD: Now you have suggested in your evidence that if you

did not carry out this order, there was a real chance of you losing

your work and also that you could be eliminated?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR FORD: What brought you to that conclusion, Mr Vermeulen?

MR VERMEULEN: At that stage I was involved in lots of

operations before that, and I know about a lot of sensitive

information.

MR FORD: Now you heard Mr De Kock's evidence of the

relationship which he had with his men and which he stated quite

clearly that what his attitude would have been if one of his men had

felt unable to participate in a certain operation?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR FORD: If I understood his evidence it was that it may have led

to - certainly not a question of elimination of that person, he may

have been less readily promoted, but there is no question of him

being eliminated, just because he didn't feel capable of participating

in a special operation?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, it is not necessarily that

elimination would have come from Mr De Kock. The senior people

higher above could have decided something like that.

MR FORD: Did you ever have any reason to suspect that if you had

declined to participate in this operation, Mr De Kock wouldn't just

have appointed somebody else in your place?

MR VERMEULEN: He could have, Mr Chairman.

MR FORD: Were you - happy is not the appropriate word, but you

were ready to participate at all times? Did you have any hesitation

about this operation?

MR VERMEULEN: No, I didn't have any hesitations.

MR FORD: Why not?

MR VERMEULEN: Because when I received orders from my

seniors, I always tried to comply, Mr Chairman.

MR FORD: The point I am trying to make, Mr Vermeulen, is that

you obeyed this order, not because you were afraid of being

eliminated, but because that was the way you operated.

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR FORD: And I am putting it to you then, Mr Vermeulen, that

your suggestion that there was a real possibility of you being

eliminated in these circumstances, is just not correct.

MR VERMEULEN: No, I won't say that.

MR FORD: Just give me a moment, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr

Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORD

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Only one question,

thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Vermeulen, you obeyed the order

because you simply had no choice?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR CORNELIUS: And depending on the breach of your security

measures, that will depend what type of action will be taken against

you?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may step down, Mr Vermeulen.

MR VERMEULEN: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR CORNELIUS 420 N J VERMEULEN

PORT ELIZABETH HEARING AMNESTY/EASTERN CAPE

MR HUGO 430 N J VERMEULEN

MR FORD 433 N J VERMEULEN

MR CORNELIUS 434 N J VERMEULEN