amntrans
AMNESTY HEARING
1999-05-20
PIETERMARITZBURG
4
CYRIL BONGANI THUSI
AM8013/97
RICHMOND MURDER
http://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53401&t=&tab=hearings
http://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99051721_pmb_990520pm.htm
CHAIRPERSON
Will all the legal representatives place themselves on record please, starting with the Applicant.
MR WILLS
Thank you Mr Chairperson. My name is John Wills, Attorney of Pietermaritzburg. I am acting for the applicant Bongani Cyril Thusi in this matter.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes.
MR COETZEE
Mr Chairman, may it please you. I have been instructed by the implicated persons, Captain Meering and the farmer Mr Mortezan.
CHAIRPERSON
Your name is?
MR COETZEE
Mr Chairman, Petrus Coetzee.
CHAIRPERSON
Mr Coetzee.
MR COETZEE
Mason Wynburg Attorneys, Pietermaritzburg.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you.
MS JELAL
Mr Chairman, I am Shireen Jelal from Shireen Jelal and Associates. I represent the victims of the Richmond Massacre.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you.
MS WILLIAMS
Mr Chairperson, my name is Gillian Williams. I am appearing on behalf of the IFP members who have been implicated by the amnesty applicant.
CHAIRPERSON
MR COETZEE
That is correct, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON
MR COETZEE
CHAIRPERSON
MR COETZEE
As you please.
MR WILLS
Mr Chairperson, if I could just come in here.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes.
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Yes.
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
No.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes. But I mean you can clear that up with him without holding up the works of this Committee.
MR WILLS
MR COETZEE
CHAIRPERSON
It certainly would assist the Committee.
MR COETZEE
CHAIRPERSON
MR COETZEE
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you very much.
MR COETZEE
As it pleases you.
CHAIRPERSON
Unless you have authority to part with that pocketbook?
MR COETZEE
I have taken instructions from here, Captain Meering has given me authority to hand this original pocketbook over to you.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes, for the purpose of the proceedings, but I think that for the purposes of final record, these books must be kept where they ought to be kept.
MR COETZEE
As you please.
CHAIRPERSON
So perhaps it will be appropriate for you not to leave us just yet. Thank you very much.
MR COETZEE
As you please.
CHAIRPERSON
Have you had a chance of looking at the names of the people who lost their lives in that attack Mr Wills?
MR WILLS
Yes, we do Mr Chairperson. Our position remains somewhat similar in that the applicant will say that he attacked an ANC area on an evening, some month in 1991, he cannot remember the names.
CHAIRPERSON
Well he would not have known the names, would he?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
This was an attack carried out at random at night.
MR WILLS
Yes indeed Mr Chairperson, but why we were concerned about the issue of the three days as opposed to what we believe is, the attack occurred in the one day, that would enable us by the other evidence, to infer that in fact, because these people died on that month in that particular location, that the applicant must have been involved in the attack that caused the death of those persons.
CHAIRPERSON
I agree with you.
MR WILLS
Thank you, Mr Chairperson. May I call the applicant?
CHAIRPERSON
Yes, please do.
CYRIL BONGANI THUSI
(sworn states)
MR WILLS
Thank you. May I proceed Mr Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON
Yes certainly.
MR WILLS
Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS
Mr Thusi, you filled out an Amnesty Application form and you attached an Affidavit thereto from where you presently are at Westville Prison on the 27th of September 1997. Is that correct?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Does he have a copy before him?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
You filled in the Annexure which is the prescribed form for Amnesty and in that you said that you referred to an Affidavit. Is that correct? And I refer to specific sections of the form from Section 8B onwards. Do you see that? You refer on the prescribed form on numerous occasions, you refer to seeing to an Affidavit. Is that right? I am referring to page 2 of the bundle, 3, 4 of the bundle, 5 of the bundle.
CHAIRPERSON
In other words, you make reference in your application from time to time to an Affidavit. Is that correct?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
And does that Affidavit appear to be dated the 27th of September 1994?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Have a look at the Affidavit. Is it sworn on the 27th of September 1994?
ADV SANDI
You must look at the very last page of it, Mr Thusi, the last page of the Affidavit.
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Mr Wills, this document appears between pages 8 and 12 of the bundle, 7 and 12.
MR WILLS
Yes indeed. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Do you confirm the contents of that Affidavit?
MR THUSI
Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON
Do you know what that means? That means that you are reaffirming that what you have said in that Affidavit is the truth.
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Yes, do carry on.
MR WILLS
Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Now, is it so that you are applying for amnesty in respect of two incidents? One, an attack in Richmond where a number of ANC people were killed, that attack we know now happened on the 23rd of June 1991.
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
And the second incident in respect of which you are applying for amnesty relates to the killing of one Paulus Zulu in Ulundi in January 1994. Is that correct?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
And then you are also applying for amnesty in respect of the possession of certain firearms, the illegal possession of certain firearms. Is that correct?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Well, in the attack in Richmond you said you were using an AK47. Is that correct?
CHAIRPERSON
MR THUSI
Yes, I was using an AK 47, but I was never caught with that AK47.
CHAIRPERSON
Does it appear from his application form?
ADV SANDI
MR WILLS
Yes on page 7 of the Application and also on page 17, of paragraph 17 on page 9 of the bundle he refers to the usage of an AK Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
In the, on page 7 of the bundle, paragraph 3.3.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you.
MR WILLS
Now, you were born in Richmond in April 1971 and you were educated up to Standard 9.
ADV SANDI
Sorry, Mr Wills, does he confirm that he is applying for unlawful possession of that, because I thought he just said he was never caught in possession of firearms and ammunition?
MR WILLS
Thank you, Mr Committee Member. Mr Thusi, is it not so that when you were involved in the attack in Richmond you had in your possession an AK47 and you used it. Is that right?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
And obviously that means you were never caught with the AK or prosecuted for the AK. Is that correct?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
You were born in Richmond in April 1971 and you left school after obtaining standard 9 in 1986. Is that right?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Your brother, Ndodi Thusi, was involved in the IFP. He, in fact, was an enthusiastic member and he became a leader of the IFP in the Richmond area. Is that right?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
He was the person who was the major influence upon you, which influenced you to become a member of the IFP. Is that right?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Whilst you received this training, what did your trainers tell you about the ANC?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
What did that mean?
MR WILLS
Sorry, Mr Chairperson, the applicant has indicated to me that he is battling to hear, if I understood his signal correctly. I wonder
CHAIRPERSON
Is the mike not working?
INTERPRETER
CHAIRPERSON
Sorry. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON
When you said that the ANC, you were told that the ANC and the Communists needed to be removed, what did that mean?
MR THUSI
The only way we would remove them was to kill them.
CHAIRPERSON
Carry on.
MR WILLS
You mention in paragraph 10 of your Affidavit that one of these leaders who said this was Brig Mzemela. Is that right?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Now when you returned to Richmond there was a lot of violence in the area. Is that right? There was, the conflict between the ANC and the IFP was quite intense.
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Highlight what you regard as important in your questions to him you see.
MR WILLS
Yes thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.
MR WILLS
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
But they returned, is that not so?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
What did you have to do about their return?
MR THUSI
When they returned from Pietermaritzburg, they started attacking us, therefore we also attacked them.
MR WILLS
Now I want to refer specifically to the incident in which you apply for amnesty, where a lot of people were killed, I think the estimates are 16 people were killed in an attack on the 23rd of June 1991 in Richmond. Do you recall that incident?
MR THUSI
Yes, I do.
MR WILLS
I want you to tell the Committee, in as much detail as you can remember, about that incident commencing from how you got involved in the incident on the day. Can you proceed?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
MR THUSI
What I remember is that a day before the attack, my brother Ndodi Thusi had a meeting with Mr Vezi and I am happy because Mr Vezi is right here inside the hall. After the meeting, when my brother came back, gathered IFP Members at home, and told us that Vezi and other IFP members were going to come at night and we were going to attack ANC members.
MR WILLS
Carry on.
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Just stop there please. When you say "they came", who is they?
MR THUSI
INTERPRETER
Can I proceed?
CHAIRPERSON
Yes please. Where did you go to when you joined them?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Yes, you said that "we joined them" and where did you go to?
MR THUSI
We went to Silhlambewu first to attack there.
CHAIRPERSON
INTERPRETER
Silhlambewu
CHAIRPERSON
Where is this?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
How many of you went there?
MR THUSI
I cannot be certain about the number but we were approximately 50.
CHAIRPERSON
And were all of them armed?
MR THUSI
When you are referring to being armed, what exactly do you mean? Do you mean guns, or
CHAIRPERSON
Any kind of arms, assegais, spears, knobkierries, guns.
MR THUSI
Yes, we were armed with assegais, spears, guns and sticks.
MR WILLS
What were you armed with?
MR THUSI
AK47.
MR WILLS
Proceed and tell us what you did.
MR THUSI
We attacked Silhlambewu first and up until to Magoda area.
CHAIRPERSON
When you say we attacked Silhlambewu, did you attack a particular house, did you attack a particular place, or did you attack people walking in the streets? What do you mean?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Do you know what political party the occupants of these areas were?
MR THUSI
Yes, I do know.
MR WILLS
Can you tell the Committee?
MR THUSI
ADV SANDI
CHAIRPERSON
No man.
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Carry on.
MR THUSI
When we finished there we went to Ndaleni. We also attacked people who were asleep.
CHAIRPERSON
Just pause there. At this first place, Silhlambewu, do you know how many people were killed?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Do you know how many people you shot at?
MR THUSI
Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON
Tell me.
MR THUSI
Six.
MR WILLS
Those people you shot at, those six people, do you know whether or not they died, or whether they were injured?
MR THUSI
I cannot be certain whether they died or they survived, but when I shot at them my aim was to kill them.
MR WILLS
Yes, you say you continued to Ndaleni. What happened there?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
How far is Ndaleni from that first place, do you know?
MR WILLS
Mr Thusi, can you tell us, how far is Ndaleni from Silhlambewu?
MR THUSI
I can estimate it to be like a kilometer, just one kilometer.
CHAIRPERSON
Carry on.
MR WILLS
This person you recall as being called Charlie, do you know if his surname was Basi?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Is he one of the victims?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Anyway, he says he only knows the name of one victim that day, that is Charlie.
MR WILLS
Now, can you recall how many people you shot at at Ndaleni?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
To your knowledge, was anybody killed at Ndaleni by the other participants in the attack?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Now I see from the Indictment that a lot, well certainly women and children were killed on that attack. Did you see women and children being killed?
MR THUSI
Yes, I saw.
MR WILLS
Now why were women and children attacked, do you know?
MR THUSI
I think the aim of attacking women and children was because we wanted to scare the ANC in that area, we wanted them to leave the area and never come back because if they knew that their children were going to die, they were not going to come back.
MR WILLS
And when you attacked Ndaleni, whereabouts, what did you do then? Just continue with your story. You got up to the point where you were busy attacking Ndaleni. Can you tell us what happened thereafter?
MR THUSI
We went to Magoda and we also attacked there and this was the last attack on that night.
CHAIRPERSON
And is Magoda also within walking distance from Ndaleni?
MR THUSI
Yes.
MR WILLS
Now, Magoda and Ndaleni, are they areas where people of a particular political persuasion reside, and if so, what is the political persuasion of the people who reside in those areas?
MR THUSI
Silhlambewu, Ndaleni, Magoda were ANC predominantly supporters.
MR WILLS
Now at Magoda, were people killed?
MR THUSI
Yes, there were.
MR WILLS
Were you involved in killings at Magoda? Yourself, personally, did you shoot anybody at Magoda?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Why not?
MR THUSI
I cannot explain why, it just happened. Only two people died at Magoda area because most people had died when Phateni attacked them. When we attacked, only two people died.
ADV SANDI
The two people you say died at Magoda, were they also women and children?
MR THUSI
I cannot remember very well, I think they were children.
MR WILLS
And after you had attacked Magoda, what did you do?
MR THUSI
We went back home and people from Phateni also went back to Phateni.
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Just hold on. How do you spell this name Phateni?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Where was your home? What was the area of your home at that stage, what was it called?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
At the time of this attack, where was your home?
MR THUSI
At Ndaleni.
ADV SANDI
Sorry Mr Wills, can we just clear up one thing here. At paragraph 14 he says they went to Ndaleni, Magoda, Silhlambemu and Smozomeni. He did not give any evidence about Smozomeni.
MR WILLS
Yes, can you look at paragraph 14 of your Affidavit, Mr Thusi. You mentioned that you also attacked an area called Smozomeni. Do you see that?
MR THUSI
It is because the following day we discovered that the people who came from Phateni also attacked Smozomeni on their way to where we were.
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
MR WILLS
What happened the next day? I see you went to the police station the next day, is that right?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Can you recall what happened there?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Now, as I understand your evidence, am I correct in saying that Mr Vezi was the leader of the IFP people from Phateni.
MR THUSI
Would you please repeat the question?
MR WILLS
As I understand your evidence you have indicated that Mr Vezi was the leader of the IFP people from Phateni. Is that right?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
And your brother was the leader of the IFP people from your area. Is that right?
MR THUSI
Yes, he was a leader at Ndaleni.
MR WILLS
Yes, and on the night of the attack, the two areas got together, the IFP people from Phateni and IFP people from your area and they both participated in this attack on the ANC areas, is that right?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Yes. It seems that your evidence is to the effect that the IFP people from Phateni and the IFP people from Ndaleni got together and they both participated in the attack.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes, he said that.
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Now why did you attack that night? What was the purpose of your attack?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
MR THUSI
No.
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Just before you get somewhere else. Was anybody else prosecuted?
MR WILLS
Do you know if other people were prosecuted, other participants in this attack were prosecuted for it?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Thank you Mr Chairperson.
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Yes, certainly.
MR WILLS
Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Where are you in your Affidavit at this stage?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you, do carry on.
MR WILLS
You were sent to have training in Ulundi during 1992. Is that right?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
And here you met Dalakolo Lithuli. Is that right?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
After that you were sent to the Germiston area where you worked with a Righteous Visimusi Mvalasi?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
And then, after an argument with this person, you returned to Ulundi sometime during 1993.
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
It was in January 1994 that you participated in the murder of a person by the name of Petrus Zulu and you are applying for amnesty for your participation in regard to that incident, is that correct?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Can you tell this Committee what your participation in this murder was? I want you to explain in as much detail as you can remember from the beginning up until the murder of this individual.
MS MTANGA
Can I come in at this stage?
CHAIRPERSON
Yes.
MS MTANGA
The agreement we had with Adv Wolmarans was that we would first lead evidence and do cross-examination on the Richmond incident.
CHAIRPERSON
I understand. He is not here to take part in these proceedings.
MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
MS JELAL
Yes, Mr Chairman, I wish to point out at this time that there would be cross-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Yes. Will you proceed?
MS JELAL
Thank you Mr Chairman.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS JELAL
Was there any provocation by the ANC immediately prior to your attack?
MR THUSI
Yes there was.
MS JELAL
What was the provocation?
MR THUSI
Because we were IFP members.
CHAIRPERSON
No the question is, what was the provocation?
MR THUSI
Yes, they used to kill IFP members.
MS JELAL
Were any IFP members killed just before this attack?
CHAIRPERSON
You mean on the day of this attack, or the day before that, or what?
MS JELAL
I mean on the day of the attack.
CHAIRPERSON
I cannot be certain that it was on that day specific. This was the day we chose to retaliate.
MS JELAL
In your examination-in-chief you said that you personally shot six people. In which areas were these six people shot?
MR THUSI
Silhlambewu.
MS JELAL
Do you recall if these six people were men only or men, women and children?
MR THUSI
Male.
MS JELAL
How long did this attack take?
CHAIRPERSON
Carry on. You were asked how long did the attack take? In other words, your attack.
MR THUSI
MS JELAL
No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS JELAL
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you.
Ms Mtanga, have you any questions to put?
MS MTANGA
Yes Chairperson, I do.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA
Mr Thusi, do you know if Mr Gumbe, that is Mr Ndodosi Gumbe and Mr Robert Zuma, who have also applied for this incident, do you know if they were part of the group that joined in the attack?
MR THUSI
It is not easy for me to know if they were there because it was at night, but I heard that there were people who applied for amnesty in respect of the Richmond killings.
MS MTANGA
In your evidence you stated that the group that carried out a spear attacked on that night came from Phateni and also from your area. Is that correct?
MR THUSI
MS MTANGA
Mr Gumbe and Mr Zuma came from Ngobeni, is it the same area as your area or is it the same area as Phateni? How would they have joined the group?
MR THUSI
If you can please repeat the name of the area you said they were from?
CHAIRPERSON
Do you know where Mr Gumbe and Mr Zuma came from?
MR THUSI
MS MTANGA
Do you know the area of Ngobeni, Mr Thusi?
CHAIRPERSON
What area?
MR THUSI
There is no such an area in Richmond. There is no Ngobeni in Richmond.
MS MTANGA
Mr Thusi, the applicant, your co-applicants, Mr Gumbe and Mr Zuma allege that they came from Ngobeni which was also in Richmond.
MR THUSI
MS MTANGA
Amongst the group that carried out the attack on the 23rd of June were there people from Umkobeni in your knowledge?
MR THUSI
MS MTANGA
was the attack carried out by the ANC on them during the day on the 23rd, so they went on to retaliate that specific attack. Do you know about this?
MR THUSI
MS MTANGA
You have testified that you carried out attacks on women and children. Was this the policy of your organisation, to kill women and children?
MR THUSI
MS MTANGA
Mr Thusi, if there is no policy in the IFP to kill people, how can you justify your killing of the people in Richmond, which you are applying for today?
MR THUSI
MS MTANGA
Are you telling this Committee that you went on and killed people knowing that you were going against the policy of the IFP, your organisation?
MR THUSI
The killing of people never came from our hearts, we did this because we were defending ourselves. They were also attacking us.
MS MTANGA
MR THUSI
MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON
I think that that is quite clear that there is no political policy saying that they must go around killing people, but we know that this conflict had been raging in the area without there being any political policy of the parties.
MS MTANGA
That is then my cross-examination Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you.
MS WILLIAMS
Mr Chairperson, as the applicant said, Mr Vezi is here. Would I have an opportunity to consult with Mr Vezi regarding the evidence-in-chief of the applicant and then take his further instruction?
CHAIRPERSON
We will take a short adjournment at this stage and afford you an opportunity to see Mr Vezi.
MS WILLIAMS
Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
We will resume in 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CYRIL BONGANI THUSI
(s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON
You may proceed.
MS JELAL
Mr Chairman at this point in time I wish to place on record the names of the deceased and those that were injured, for the different areas in which they were injured or attacked.
CHAIRPERSON
On that night?
MS JELAL
On the night of the 23rd, on that particular night that the applicant has spoken about.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes. Now then Mr Wills you are aware of this?
MR WILLS
Yes, we have had discussions, thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes, and is this by consent?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
MS JELAL
That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON
MS JELAL
Thank you Mr Chairman. I will first deal with the Townlands area.
CHAIRPERSON
What area?
MS JELAL
Townlands.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes.
MS JELAL
CHAIRPERSON
MS JELAL
Yes Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes.
MS JELAL
May I proceed?
CHAIRPERSON
Yes.
MS JELAL
The murder of Malo Elsa Dlamini. Attempted murder of Emily Dlamini. That concludes the Townlands murders and assaults.
CHAIRPERSON
What was the name of Mr Dlamini?
MS JELAL
Mr Chairman are you looking at the second Dlamini?
CHAIRPERSON
Before that, before Emily Dlamini. That was the one and the one before that?
MS JELAL
Kijema James Dlamini.
MR WILLS
Mr Chairperson, sorry to interrupt here, but just to avoid any confusion here, the applicant's evidence will be to the effect that he did not participate in the attack in this Townlands area so he is not applying for amnesty in respect those names. He surmises, due to the geographical layout of the town which has been shown to him, that these people were probably killed by the group that came earlier, but he is not applying for amnesty for that.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes alright. Well, can we then confine ourselves to the group of people that were killed by the party of which the applicant is a member?
MS JELAL
Yes, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON
Alright, please proceed.
MS JELAL
We are now looking at the Silhlambewu area for which the applicant is claiming amnesty for attacks on. It was the murder of Siabonga Duma....
CHAIRPERSON
Yes.
MS JELAL
Attempted murder of Kwandeni Duma. Attempted murder of Zandile Duma. Attempted murder of Basikile Duma. Attempted murder of Gertrude Duma. Attempted murder of Stinky Nobule Duma. Attempted murder of Ngingi Liverance Ngcobo.
CHAIRPERSON
How do you spell that surname?
MS JELAL
Ngcobo. Murder of Ntjolo Salitile Gomande Zondi. Murder of Mukushwa Nivad Msomi....
CHAIRPERSON
MS JELAL
Attempted murder.
CHAIRPERSON
Now you are dealing with murders and you mentioned the name of Zondi?
MS JELAL
Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes.
MS JELAL
Murder of Mukushwa Nivad Msomi.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes.
MS JELAL
Murder of Pickup John Poswha.
MS JELAL
Mr Chairman that concludes the list for the Silhlambewu area.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes.
MS JELAL
With regards to the Ndaleni area, the murder of Charlie Basi. Murder of Leon Sikumbuzo Thomson.
CHAIRPERSON
MS JELAL
Leon Sikumbuzo.
CHAIRPERSON
Carry on.
MS JELAL
Murder of Ntelezi Mncube.
CHAIRPERSON
How do you spell those names?
MS JELAL
Ntelezi Mncube.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes.
MS JELAL
Attempted murder of Paulus Strans Kumbula,
Attempted murder of Mpiyezwe Isaac Mbanjwa.
CHAIRPERSON
How do you spell that first name?
MS JELAL
Mpiyezwe.
CHAIRPERSON
And the surname?
MS JELAL
Mbanjwa. Attempted murder of Dumisani Mtolo.
CHAIRPERSON
Mtolo?
MS JELAL
That is correct. Attempted murder of Dumisani Ncunene. Attempted murder of Themba Mchunu.
CHAIRPERSON
Mchunu?
MS JELAL
That is correct. That concludes the list of the two areas for which the applicant is applying for amnesty for murders and assaults.
MR WILLS
Mr Chairperson, possibly I can assist my learned friend and the Committee and not be necessary to produce a list by referring to the Indictment and all of those people are included on the Indictment and if I can give you the counts in respect of those persons, I have listed them on the Indictment.
CHAIRPERSON
Where does it appear?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
This is in Section B?
MR WILLS
Yes. And these persons are listed, commencing at Count 10 on page 6, Mr Chairperson, of the Indictment, that is.
CHAIRPERSON
Count 10?
MR WILLS
Yes. The counts I read into the record now are the persons in respect of whose murders the applicant is applying for amnesty for.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes, just hold it. Right.
MR WILLS
And it is the exact same list as has been read out by my colleague.
CHAIRPERSON
Right, just give us the numbers of the counts.
MR WILLS
Count 10, Count 11,12,13,14,15,16,19,20,21,23, 24,25,26,27,28,29,30. That concludes the list, thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
I make it 18 matters.
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you. This is now beyond refute. Ms Mtanga you accept this, do you?
MS MTANGA
Yes Chairperson I do.
CHAIRPERSON
Miss Jelal, thank you for your assistance.
MR WILLS
Yes, Mr Chairman, we have established that between ourselves.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you very much.
Is there anything you want? Are you satisfied now?
ADV BOSMAN
CHAIRPERSON
Are you satisfied now?
ADV SANDI
Yes.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes please proceed.
MR WILLS
Mr Chairperson, can I proceed with the second incident at this stage?
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
As it pleases. Mr Chairperson I have obviously completed my examination-in-chief in respect of that incident.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes I think cross-examination is over but is there anything else you wish to put to this applicant, anything further?
MS JELAL
CHAIRPERSON
Ms Mtanga?
MS MTANGA
Nothing further Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Anything for you?
MS WILLIAMS
CHAIRPERSON
Just hold a minute. You say that the implicated persons are not opposing?
MS WILLIAMS
Yes, that is correct Chairperson, they are not opposing the Amnesty Application of Mr Thusi.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes.
MS WILLIAMS
And that my instructions are that they no knowledge of the allegations made by Mr Thusi to the Committee today. And that I will not be addressing any questions to Mr Thusi directly.
CHAIRPERSON
That really means that they have no knowledge of the allegations he makes concerning them.
MS WILLIAMS
That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you.
MS WILLIAMS
Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Ms Mtanga we can now proceed with the second count.
MS MTANGA
Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
MS MTANGA
Yes Chairperson, I agree with that.
CHAIRPERSON
Will that be convenient?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Alright.
MR WILLS
May I proceed?
CHAIRPERSON
Yes please.
EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS
Thank you.
involvement in the death of one Petrus Zulu who was killed in Ulundi in 1994. I want you to tell the Committee what your involvement in that incident was.
MR THUSI
Regarding the death of Mr Zulu in Ulundi A Section and my participation in his death on the day he was killed. A man called Zwelake Dlamini, who was also a police, he came to my place. He told me that it was the day when Mr Zulu was supposed to be killed. I went with him, my reasons were being that I hated anyone who was an ANC or was a supporter or sympathiser.
CHAIRPERSON
MR THUSI
We waited a while outside to see as to what was going to happen and later a certain car came. That car was being driven by a certain male who was a neighbour.
CHAIRPERSON
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
15?
MR THUSI
We were about 15 yes.
ADV SANDI
What time of the day was it? Sorry Chair.
CHAIRPERSON
Carry on.
ADV SANDI
What time of the day was it, Mr Thusi?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
At night?
MR THUSI
Yes, at night.
CHAIRPERSON
Were any of these 15 people that were there with you, dressed in any uniforms?
MR THUSI
When you are talking about uniform, which uniform are you talking about? Are you talking about an organisation uniform, or a church uniform, what uniform exactly are you talking about or are you referring here?
CHAIRPERSON
You mentioned that two of the police, two of the people that went with you were policemen, Kanyele and Dlamini. Were they policemen in uniform?
MR THUSI
When I say they were police, I mean that their job was being policemen, but on that day they were wearing their own clothes because they were not on duty.
CHAIRPERSON
So they were not in uniform.
MR THUSI
Yes.
CHAIRPERSON
And anybody else that wore any kind of uniform? Military uniform?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
MR THUSI
I cannot say that they were not armed because it was at night but I remember very well that Zwele Dlamini and this other gentleman were armed.
CHAIRPERSON
Which other gentleman?
MR THUSI
It was Zwele Dlamini and Dudusi Kanyele.
CHAIRPERSON
So, only two of them went into the house and the rest of you stayed outside.
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Was it arranged beforehand that they were going to be the two people who are going to go in and the rest of you are going to stay out. Was that all planned?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Anyway, proceed. Now you arrive at the house, two of them go in and the rest of you stand outside?
MR THUSI
They entered his house, Dudusi Dlamini and Zwele. I heard gunshots and they came back. We were still waiting outside the house, we wanted to see as to what else was going to happen. After a while we saw a car, it was a government car from Department of Health, it belonged to Mr Nyoga, a neighbour.
CHAIRPERSON
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
And what happened?
MR THUSI
After that we left. We went back home.
CHAIRPERSON
So what did this car do?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Why do you mention this car? What significance has it to this case?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
MR THUSI
Yes, it stopped.
CHAIRPERSON
Up to that stage all of you were still there?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Just please, just make our life a little more easy than you have made it so far. Two of your friends go in there, you hear gunshots, they come out and you are waiting to see what has happened. They tell you the job has been done. While you are there a car arrives.
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
You saw the car stopping.
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Did anybody get out of the car?
MR THUSI
Yes.
CHAIRPERSON
Who got out of the car?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Did you see a person get out of the car?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
How many people got out of the car?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
So after Zwele told you all to leave, did you all leave together?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
What happened next?
MR THUSI
You mean the very same night?
CHAIRPERSON
Yes, immediately after this incident, where did you go to or what did you do?
MR THUSI
I went straight back to the house where they fetched me.
ADV BOSMAN
Did you all go there on foot? Did you go on foot, did you walk back?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
MR THUSI
If you could please repeat the question for me.
CHAIRPERSON
You mention the names of two people as having gone into the house. My question is, is it possible that others also went into the house with them?
MR THUSI
No, only two people entered the house.
CHAIRPERSON
And the shooting occurred inside the house and not outside the house.
MR THUSI
That I cannot remember very well because it wasn't right in front of my eyes, whether it was right inside the house or just outside the house.
CHAIRPERSON
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
MR THUSI
ADV BOSMAN
How many shots did you hear? Can you remember?
MR THUSI
I think I heard more than 5 shots.
CHAIRPERSON
After your two colleagues emerged from the house, did you ask them how many people they shot?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
The Evidence Leader Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Do they form part of all the papers?
MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON
MS MTANGA
Chairperson, this is just information that I am receiving now and I had no knowledge of.
CHAIRPERSON
Is this material information?
MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON
I would like to place on record my disappointment that we are having these difficulties that delay our proceedings. How much time will you require?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
If there are going to be any other documents that are going to be handed in or used, please see to it that all that is done now and not during these proceedings.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CYRIL BONGANI THUSI
(s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON
Before proceeding with the evidence of this witness, we were handed in photocopies of extracts from the handbook of the police and it will go in as Exhibit 1, but is there any indication as to whose handbook it was?
MR WILLS
F.J. Steyn, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
This document will go in as Exhibit 1 in the record. Mr Thusi, you are reminded that you are still under oath. Do you understand?
MR THUSI
Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you. Mr Wills.
EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS
(cont)
Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Thusi, when you say the two assailants went into the house, what do you mean? When you say that Zwele David Dlamini and Dodosi Kanyele, they were part of your group and they were armed and they went into the house, what do you mean?
MR THUSI
I meant that they entered the gate, in other words inside the yard, not inside the house. I think there was a misunderstanding there. What I meant is inside the yard, they entered the gate, not the house or the door of the house.
MR WILLS
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Now what was the purpose of you standing outside?
CHAIRPERSON
Are you talking about him personally, or all 15 of them, all his group?
MR WILLS
MR THUSI
My job was to safeguard, so as to see whether police were coming.
MR WILLS
ADV BOSMAN
Excuse Mr Wills, can we just get that clear. Did you think your job was to safeguard or were you told that your job was to safeguard?
MR THUSI
I was told.
MR WILLS
Who told you?
MR THUSI
Zwele Dlamini.
MR WILLS
And when did he tell you this?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Now why did you go with Zwele Dlamini? When he came to your house, you said that Zwele Dlamini came and he told you that Mr Zulu was going to be killed, why did you go with him?
MR THUSI
I trusted Zwele and he was my senior and a Caprivi trainee, so I trusted everything he told me.
MR WILLS
Now, why was Mr Zulu killed?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Who did you hear that from?
MR THUSI
I would hear this in the offices, Mr Mzemela sometimes would mention this in the offices where I used to work. I would hear people saying he was an ANC supporter.
MR WILLS
When you refer to Mr Mzemela, who are you referring to? Which Mr Mzemela, in other words?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Mr Robert Mzemela?
MR THUSI
ADV SANDI
Did Mr Mzemela tell you why he thought Mr Zulu was an ANC supporter? Was he saying this to you personally when he said Mr Zulu was an ANC supporter?
MR THUSI
He was telling me personally.
ADV SANDI
Did he tell you why he thought he was an ANC supporter?
MR THUSI
ADV SANDI
Thank you. Mr Wills.
MR WILLS
MR THUSI
Yes, I do know Gideon Zulu.
MR WILLS
Who is he?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Do you know Nzwembe Sibiya?
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
As you please, Mr Chairperson. I was going to just clear up whether or not he knew the second person first.
CHAIRPERSON
Alright, do that.
MR WILLS
Thank you Mr Chairperson. Do you know Nzwembe Sibiya?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Do you know if, do you have any personal knowledge as to whether or not this order to kill Zulu came from Prince Gideon Zulu?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
MR THUSI
Yes, I do remember.
MR WILLS
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Sorry Mr Chairperson my receiver seems to be very intermittent, I wonder if I could ask for an indulgence and change it?
CHAIRPERSON
Yes certainly.
MR WILLS
Thank you. Now is it so that you told her that you were given a 9mm by Brig Mzemela?
MR THUSI
Who are you referring to, Brig Mzemela or Robert Mzemela?
MR WILLS
Well let me rather ask you Mr Thusi, it says here and possibly you can help me, she refers to, you were given a 9mm by Mzemela. Did any Mzemela give you a 9mm?
CHAIRPERSON
Just read that sentence to him, please.
MR WILLS
Thank you Mr Chairman.
I quote, "Thusi" this is the report by Stephanie Muller "Thusi carried a 9mm Parabellum which was issued to him by Mzemela as he was a bodyguard for Mvalasi and needed to be armed." Now what do you have to say about that?
MR THUSI
Yes, there were weapons or guns which were given to me by Mr Mzemela, including a 9mm.
MR WILLS
Which Mzemela was that?
MR THUSI
Robert Mzemela, I was working under him.
MR WILLS
And this report indicates that, and I quote
"at the time of the murder they were all carrying handguns" that included yourself, it implies that you were carrying a 9mm, what do you have to say about that? This is on the night of the murder of Zulu.
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
In other words you maintain your position that on that night you were unarmed, is that right?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Which document is it?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
This statement.
MR WILLS
Yes.
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
As you please, Mr Chairperson.
Just one point, there is mentioned in this statement of the two people, or of persons that were attacking Mr Zulu when he died on that night in January, that they were wearing Khaki overalls and brown overalls. Do you know anything about that?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Thank you. And in respect of this incident, you have at no stage been prosecuted or arrested. Is that correct?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
No policemen have ever questioned you about your involvement in this murder or sought any information from you whatsoever, is that correct?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
This is in fact the first time you are mentioning this in public, is that right?
CHAIRPERSON
Does it matter?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
You were worried about
INTERPRETER
MR WILLS
And you were worried that, you wanted to stop the ANC and the Communists from coming into power.
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
In conclusion, do you have anything you want to say to the victims of those people, the relatives of the victims who were involved in these acts.
MR THUSI
Yes.
MR WILLS
Carry on.
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
Yes, indeed, thank you Mr Chairperson. I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Mr Wolmarans.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WOLMARANS
Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Mr Thusi, when you were asked to give the details about the killing of Mr Zulu, you were asked at length by the Honourable Chairman, about going into the house and who went into the house, how many people went into the house. It was clear from what you were saying, and certainly the impression created with me, was that at least two people entered the house as such, the structure. Do you agree with that?
MR THUSI
Yes.
MR WOLMARANS
So then why is it that you have changed your version, as it were, to now the position that nobody in fact
entered the house, but that they only entered the yard and not the house as such?
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
MR THUSI
Would you please repeat that question?
MR WOLMARANS
When you made the affidavit which forms part of your application, you must have realised the importance of the documents being accurate, is that not so?
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
Well if that is so then why, in your application, do you refer to the house when you knew that it was the yard?
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
Mr Thusi, was this in the front part of the house or the back part of the house that the shootings took place?
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
But Mr Thusi, you were the person who was there, you saw them entering, you saw where the shooting took place, only you can tell us whether it was the front or the back of the house.
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
There are these two gentlemen who entered the gate. Is the gate in the front of the house, or at the back of the house?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
You stood outside the gate, in front of the house?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Now would that playground be in front of the gate outside the yard, or was it somewhere else, this playground?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Now you want to know whether the shooting came from the front or from the back of the house, meaning the yard. Is that what you want to know?
Now you have given us a picture. You were standing outside the gate in the playground. The playground is in front. There is a gate that leads into the yard. Now the questions is, was the shooting in the front yard of the house, or was the shooting in the back yard of the house?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Could you not see from where you were?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
MR WOLMARANS
Chairperson, I think it must go to his credibility
CHAIRPERSON
MR WOLMARANS
Yes, I intend to do that now Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes.
MR WOLMARANS
Mr Thusi, I intend to lead evidence to state that the shooting in fact took place outside of the house at the back of the house, at the back door. Would you like to comment on that?
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
Mr Thusi, in your application at paragraph 27, you mention the persons that accompanied you on this mission. Is that correct?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
The question is, why did you not mention that there were 15 people, why do you only mention 4?
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
MR THUSI
I explain that we were quite a number and then I mentioned only the names of the people whom I remembered.
MR WOLMARANS
Can we just now turn to the interview conducted with Stephanie Muller at the Westville Prison with you, this was on the 27th August 1997. Do you recall that interview.
MR THUSI
Yes, I do remember.
MR WOLMARANS
Stephanie Muller recalls that you told her "at the time of the murder they were all carrying handguns." Do you recall that?
MR THUSI
When I made this statement with this lady, whatever I said, I said it in Zulu and the prison worker interpreted to the lady on my behalf. Probably some of the facts were misled.
MR WOLMARANS
MR THUSI
What exactly do you want me to explain?
MR WOLMARANS
Why is it that you told Stephanie Muller that all the participants or persons in the group were carrying handguns?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
You are given another chance. Think again. There is a sentence here in the last paragraph which says "at the time of the murder they were all carrying handguns."
Do you recall saying that?
MR THUSI
CHAIRPERSON
Carry on.
MR WOLMARANS
Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Mr Thusi, I want to suggest to you that the context in which this is given and the fact that it is recorded here that you were carrying a 9mm Parabellum, is not something which Stephanie Muller would have or could have made a mistake about. That information could only have come from you. Would you like to comment on that?
MR THUSI
As I have already explained that, I had a 9mm which was given to me by Mr Mzemela but on the day in question I had no weapon with me.
MR WOLMARANS
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
Mr Thusi, I want to suggest to you that that was your evidence.
CHAIRPERSON
That was part of the evidence. The rest of the evidence was he was told they were going to kill Zulu and they wanted him to join and he joined them.
MR WOLMARANS
That is so Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
MR WOLMARANS
CHAIRPERSON
MR WOLMARANS
As you please, Mr Chairperson.
ADV BOSMAN
For the record perhaps I could indicate here that at the, initially at the start of his evidence, he said, Dlamini, who came to my place was telling me it was the day for Zulu to be killed. That was his evidence.
CHAIRPERSON
Now you have got what on the face of it appears to be a difference.
MR WOLMARANS
Yes.
CHAIRPERSON
But when you look at the overall picture, the fact of the matter is that he accompanied them because he knew that he was going to be killed.
MR WOLMARANS
Yes Mr Chairperson. Now, Mr Thusi you also told the Committee in reply to a question by Mr Wills, that you had heard that Zulu was an ANC supporter. Can we infer from that that at the time you yourself were not sure that he was in fact an ANC supporter?
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
Would you have accompanied this group of persons regardless of whether he was an ANC supporter or not?
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
Mr Thusi, my question is, regardless of whether he was an ANC supporter or not, would you have still gone with to kill him?
CHAIRPERSON
MR WOLMARANS
No, Mr Chairperson, it goes to whether this was really a politically motivated murder or not.
CHAIRPERSON
MR WOLMARANS
That would be the effect of the question, I withdraw the question.
CHAIRPERSON
MR THUSI
ADV SANDI
Mr Wolmarans, just one thing on this.
Mr Thusi, did you know who they were talking about when they mentioned this name, Mr Zulu? Mr Zulu, was he someone you had seen before?
MR THUSI
Yes, I knew Mr Zulu. He was a man with a beard.
ADV SANDI
Besides his beard, what else did you know about him?
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
Mr Thusi did you at any time witness or overhear Mr Mzemela and Prince Gideon Zulu in conversation about anything?
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
CHAIRPERSON
MR WOLMARANS
CHAIRPERSON
Were you present at any private conversations between Mzemela and Gideon Zulu?
MR THUSI
MR WOLMARANS
Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WOLMARANS
CHAIRPERSON
you an opportunity, if there are questions you wish to put. They do not impact on your case, I know.
MS JELAL
No, Mr Chairman, no questions.
CHAIRPERSON
Have you anything to ask?
MS WILLIAMS
No, Mr Chairman, Thank you.
MS MTANGA
None, Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON
Any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS
Just one issue, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Thusi, you had the interview with Stephanie Muller, that was interpreted. You spoke in Zulu, through an interpreter, who is a prison warder, and she made certain records, is that correct?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
At any stage did Ms Muller or anybody, for that matter, come back and ask you, and show you the written document and say to you, ask you to read through that document and say is this a correct transcript of what we spoke about?
MR THUSI
MR WILLS
Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
ADV SANDI
Mr Wills, I notice that the applicant is in prison uniform and it has transpired from his evidence that he was never tried and convicted for these offences. That would be for something else I take it?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Are there any questions you wish to put to him? Anything further?
MR WILLS
That is the case for the applicant.
CHAIRPERSON
Mr Thusi, thank you very much. You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON
Mr Wills.
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
MS WILLIAMS
No, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
MS MTANGA
No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Are you on behalf of the dependents of the
Richmond case, leading any evidence?
MS JELAL
No, Mr Chairman.
MR WOLMARANS
CHAIRPERSON
MR WOLMARANS
Yes Mr Chairperson. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MR WOLMARANS
the house at the time, a Nomuso Zulu also sustained gunshot wounds.
CHAIRPERSON
Any relative of the deceased?
MR WOLMARANS
CHAIRPERSON
Was she injured?
MR WOLMARANS
She was also injured. She sustained a gunshot wound.
CHAIRPERSON
Has she recovered?
MR WOLMARANS
Yes, Mr Chairperson, she has recovered. Both have recovered from their injuries.
CHAIRPERSON
MR WOLMARANS
That is the impression I have gained. He may not have been aware of the fact that there were other persons who may have been injured during the attack.
CHAIRPERSON
MR WOLMARANS
Then that concludes any further submissions.
CHAIRPERSON
Ms Mtanga is there any difficulty in the notion that Mrs Zulu and Namuso Zulu would be described as people who were victims of this attack and if there is any chance or prospect of reparation, that they might be entitled to some reparation?
MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON
Yes, my question to you is there any difficulty in that regard?
MS MTANGA
No Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you. Yes, Mr Wills.
MR WILLS
Thank you Mr Chairperson. May I commence with argument?
CHAIRPERSON
Yes please.
MR WILLS
Thank you.
MR WILLS IN ARGUMENT
Mr Chairperson I submit that the applicant has made out a case for amnesty. I submit that both acts were politically motivated and that he has, to the best of his ability, made full disclosure in relation to the facts surrounding those incidents.
Again, the issue of the yard, whether it is inside the house or outside the house, Mr Chairman I submit
CHAIRPERSON
One can understand that is a matter of terminology sometimes in the African languages.
MR WILLS
Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson, but again the same argument is that there'd be no reason for him to lie on this point, if he was applying for amnesty in the first instance.
I submit that in the above regards, that political motive has been clearly established and that the Applicant has done his best to fully disclose. The incidents, particularly the Richmond incident, occurred sometime ago, 1991, some eight years ago almost, therefore one cannot expect his memory to be as sharp as it might have been.
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
Thank you Mr Chairperson.
ADV BOSMAN
Mr Wills, could you perhaps make submissions on the attempted murder of the two other persons? Do we not perhaps have a difficulty in that your client testified that he went there because he was going to kill Mr Zulu. How would one come to some sort of common purpose conclusion there?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
Mr Wolmarans.
MR WOLMARANS IN ARGUMENT
Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, my learned colleague has alluded to the contradictions which have been highlighted. How the Committee deals with those in deciding whether a full disclosure has been made is up to the Committee. If the Committee regards that as being of a material nature, then the Committee may have some difficulty in deciding whether a full disclosure has been made.
One of the aspects which was not properly dealt with, I would submit, is the question of the number of people who took part in the attack on the Zulu household. In his application the Applicant mentions four people, and creates the impression, certainly in my mind, that it was a very small group of persons who took part in this murderous attack. And yet in his evidence he talks about 15 people who took part in the attack. There is ..(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON
MR WOLMARANS
Yes, perhaps it is Chairperson, but they were part of the group who certainly, had the need arisen, would have then taken part in defending those who were actually conducting the killing itself.
CHAIRPERSON
He certainly had made common purpose because he was serving a purpose there.
MR WOLMARANS
That is so Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON
He was on guard duty to alert his friend in the event of the police arriving, it would seem. He was as much part of the scene as the other two who were inside the house,
MR WOLMARANS
Certainly.
CHAIRPERSON
Who did the shooting.
MR WOLMARANS
My submission is only that there seems to be a discrepancy as to how many people were involved and how many people went there. Other than what I have said, save to say that on the face of it, it certainly appears that this was a politically motivated murder. I leave the decision as to whether the Applicant should be granted amnesty in respect of the offences for which he has applied, in the hands of the Committee. Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you. Have you, on behalf of the dependents of the Richmond killing, anything to say?
MS JELAL IN ARGUMENT
However the question of proportionality with regard to the offences committed and whether it was the modus operandi of the IFP to kill people and to behave in that fashion, is still questionable. Mr Chairman, in the circumstances, the victims leave the ultimate decision to be made by the Commission.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you. Ms Mtanga, have you anything to say?
MS MTANGA
I am not opposing the application Chairperson and I am also not making any submission. I leave the matter to the hands of the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON
Ms Williams, you had a very lengthy speech which you wrote out last night to deliver today. You can start.
MS WILLIAMS
Thank you Mr Chairperson. We are not opposing the amnesty application, we leave it in the hands of the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you very much. Thank you for your assistance and co-operation. It is unfortunate that sometimes hiccups occur in the course of hearings that tend to delay hearings and one must endeavour to try and avoid these hiccups.
The Committee will consider the evidence in this matter and in due course notify the dependents of the victims and the Applicant of the outcome of this application.
The Committee will now adjourn till tomorrow morning. Before doing so, Ms Mtanga are you in a position us what is on the menu for tomorrow?
MS MTANGA
Chairperson, tomorrow we will be hearing the amnesty application of Mr Shangase. He is the only applicant in the matter.
CHAIRPERSON
And what time do you propose that we start?
MS MTANGA
Half past Nine Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Have Counsel been notified? Are you appearing, Mr Wills, in that matter?
MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON
MR WILLS
One particular person, a Mr Romeo Mbamba.
CHAIRPERSON
MS WILLIAMS
CHAIRPERSON
And do you know whether the Dependents are being represented?
MS MTANGA
Chairperson I think they are. I have just forgotten the name of their representative.
CHAIRPERSON
MS MTANGA
Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Very well, I will adjourn now and resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS