amntrans
AMNESTY HEARINGS
1999-09-21
PIETERMARITZBURG
2
LARRY JOHN HANTON
AM4076/96
http://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53699&t=&tab=hearings
http://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99092021_pmb_990921pm.htm
MR CORNELIUS
Thank you Chair, I understand we are going to call Larry Hanton now.
MR NEL
Mr Chairman, yes, Mr Larry Hanton is my client. I have placed before you an affidavit which I am going to ask you sir, may this be marked, I think it is Exhibit D and Mr Hanton will be testifying in English and his application is found on page 78 and onwards, of Bundle 1. He will be, sorry, did I say Afrikaans, he will be testifying in English?
CHAIRPERSON
What you put before me, is not an affidavit?
MR NEL
I beg your pardon Mr Chairman. I will ask him just to confirm that under oath, thank you Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY
Thank you, Mr Hanton, your full names for the record please?
LARRY JOHN HANTON
(sworn states)
MR LAX
Please be seated, sworn in Chairperson.
EXAMINATION BY MR NEL
Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Hanton, you are an applicant for amnesty before this Committee and you apply for amnesty for the murder of Goodwill Colleen Sikhakane and other offences which might have flown from that
murder, is that correct?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR NEL
Your application is found on page 78 and onwards of the Bundle in front of you, you have once again read your application, do you confirm the correctness thereof?
MR HANTON
I do Mr Chairperson.
MR NEL
You have also had sight and you have read a document which serves before this Committee, which is marked Exhibit A, and do you confirm the correctness of that document and do you ask this Committee to incorporate that as part of your amnesty application?
MR HANTON
I do Mr Chairperson.
MR NEL
Also found in your amnesty application, is your political objective and do you confirm that as correct?
MR HANTON
I do Mr Chairperson.
MR NEL
I have drafted a statement which is marked Exhibit D, you have a copy of that in front of you, as pointed out by the Chairperson, it is not an affidavit, do you confirm this under oath as to be made by yourself?
MR HANTON
I do Mr Chairperson.
MR NEL
Mr Hanton, I want to refer you to that document and could you then for the Committee read as from paragraph 1, relating to the facts of the incident relating Goodwill Sikhakane?
MR HANTON: "During 1991 I was a member of the South African Police in the Security Branch, stationed at Camperdown under the command of the late Col Andrew Taylor. I was informed by Col Taylor that Sikhakane was a double-agent who worked for both the Durban Security Branch as well as the ANC. I was instructed by Col Taylor that Gen Steyn had authorised the elimination of Goodwill Sikhakane and I was told by Taylor that certain members from Vlakplaas would carry out the operation and that I was to assist them. On a certain day the date of which I cannot remember, I met Willie Nortje, Dawid Britz and Johannes Swart together with Col Taylor at Mooi Rivier. From Mooi Rivier we went to the Lion Park Lodge where the mentioned members were to reside. I at that stage, had already made contact with Goodwill Sikhakane and had arranged to meet him on the road near Greytown in order for me to hand over some money and his firearm to him. This was just an excuse that I used in order for Sikhakane to believe that it was important to meet with me. At that stage Col Taylor was in possession of Goodwill Sikhakane's firearm because he had taken the firearm away from Sikhakane on a previous occasion. On a particular day Nortje, Swart, Britz and myself left for Greytown. Swart was driving the kombi and I left Nortje and Britz at a small village outside Greytown and proceeded to meet Sikhakane. We met with Sikhakane and I then arranged with him to meet him again that evening. At the pre-arranged time Britz and Nortje who were hiding in the back of the kombi, Swart and myself left to meet Sikhakane, it was night and dark. Sikhakane got into the vehicle and Swart drove along the road towards Greytown. At a certain point Nortje and Britz overpowered Sikhakane. After driving a further small distance, Swart stopped the motor vehicle, Britz and Nortje removed Sikhakane from the kombi and took him up an embankment alongside the road. I also alighted form the vehicle and joined them. On top of the embankment, Willie Nortje shot Sikhakane with an AK47 assault rifle. As far as I can recall Sikhakane was shot twice. The three of us got back into the kombi and we left the scene. The following day I reported what happened, to Col Andrew Taylor. In doing what I did, I executed my duties as a policeman, the way I saw it as my obligation during a time of conflict and political violence. My political objective was to ensure that the then government remained in power and be able to effectively govern the RSA. I did not participate in the event for any personal gain or driven by personal spite or malice. I received no reward. I therefore humbly request that the Amnesty Committee will grant me amnesty as prayed for."
MR NEL
Mr Hanton, just one last thing, is it correct that you are a patient of a Counselling Psychiatrist, namely Ms Christine Camitsis and that you have been a patient of hers since the 20th of March 1998?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR NEL
Is it also so that she has diagnosed that you suffer from the symptom of Major Depressive Disorder which she explains is severe and Post-traumatic Stress Disorder, which she says is chronic and that you were medically boarded from the South African Police in 1995?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR NEL
Is it also so that it at times, it is very difficult for you to remember certain things relating to certain incidents?
MR HANTON
It is Mr Chairperson.
MR NEL
Thank you Mr Chairperson, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL
MR HATTINGH
Hattingh on record, Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS
Mr Hanton, when you found that Col Taylor received instructions from Gen Steyn, you had full trust in this order that was given to you by Col Taylor?
MR HANTON
I had the utmost trust in Col Taylor's judgement, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS
Yes, and obviously when you committed this deed, you did it bona fide with the object of countering the said struggle?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson, I did.
MR CORNELIUS
If Goodwill Sikhakane disclosed the names and addresses of Security Policemen of the Durban Security Branch, would that have endangered the lives of people if that was disclosed to the so-called enemy at that time?
MR HANTON
It would have been a calamity Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS
Was there any discussion of the possibility of the disclosure of information relating to Operation Vula or Charles Ndaba?
MR HANTON
I cannot remember Mr Chairman, I was not involved with Operation Vula at all.
MR CORNELIUS
I see. Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY
Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Hanton, were you present when Mr Nortje shot Goodwill Sikhakane?
MR HANTON
I was present Mr Chairperson.
MR LAMEY
You state here as far as I can recall, Sikhakane was shot twice, is it possible that he could have been shot three times, as Mr Nortje has testified?
MR HANTON
It is possible Mr Chairperson.
MR LAMEY
Was it an important aspect of the planning of the operation that his body should be found, what is your recollection about that?
MR HANTON
It was Col Taylor's orders that the body be found, Mr Chairperson, that is also one of the reasons that the cartridges were left on the scene.
CHAIRPERSON
So they would be identified as AK47 cartridges?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR LAMEY
So the picture would then be that he had been killed by presumably somebody from the ANC?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR LAMEY
Do you know how long after the incident, his body was found?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson, I do not, I know it was a long time afterwards.
MR LAMEY
So his body was not found as soon as what was anticipated?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson.
MR LAMEY
Isn't it a very secluded place where he was shot?
MR HANTON
It is Mr Chairperson.
MR LAMEY
You have heard Mr Nortje's evidence in this regard and do you agree with him relating to the place that was picked, where he had to be killed? In fact you pointed it out, is it correct that you went with him prior to the meeting with Sikhakane to pick the spot?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR LAMEY
Col Taylor, was he more than you, closely involved with Sikhakane and his movements and the - yes?
MR HANTON
Sorry Mr Chairperson, could you please repeat that?
MR LAMEY
Can I just repeat that, yes. Were Col Taylor more than you closely involved with Sikhakane and his movements prior to the decision to eliminate him?
MR HANTON
Col Taylor was closely involved with him, Mr Chairperson.
MR LAMEY
Is it possible that he threatened the disclosure of the people who were killed after the revelation of Operation Vula by the Natal Security Branch?
MR HANTON
It is possible Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY
Is it also possible that he had aspirations to become a permanent member, but as a result of his conduct, Col Taylor did not deem it fit that he receive permanent appointment and that he was unhappy about that?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember anything as to that.
MR LAMEY
Okay. Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER
Visser on record, Mr Chairman. Mr Hanton, were you working directly under Col Taylor, Col Andy Taylor?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
Were you involved also with the askaris who worked under Taylor in Durban?
MR HANTON
I was Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
As far as one can piece the evidence together, it seems that Mr Sikhakane was probably recruited as an informer who later became an askari during approximately 1988 and this happened, this must have happened prior to, perhaps you know about that, the abduction and the elimination of Mr Dion Cele, do you know anything about that?
MR HANTON
I do not Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
All right, well I am just leading up to the following, it would appear that Sikhakane was first of all stationed, placed, in Pietermaritzburg under Col Kobus Vorster and that he was later apparently transferred to Durban, do I have that right?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
According to Ms Celeste Pieterse, in terms of her evidence given at the de Kock trial, it appears that herself, together with her children and Sikhakane were brought out of Swaziland by the police. Do you know anything about that, were you involved in that?
MR HANTON
I was not involved in that Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
But do you have knowledge that that happened?
MR HANTON
I do have knowledge that that happened, yes Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
All right, and apparently according to her, they first, that is herself, her children, one or two of them, I am not sure what their ages were, but let's refer to the children and Mr Sikhakane first of all lived with Mr Sikhakane's mother. Were you, do you have any knowledge of that?
MR HANTON
I do not Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
And apparently thereafter, they moved into either a house or a flat and she then gave evidence that Mr Sikhakane then stayed at the farm. If that evidence is correct, to which farm would that refer?
MR HANTON
That would refer to the farm at Camperdown, Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
And this was referred to in previous applications as an operational base where Mr Taylor and the askaris and apparently yourself, worked from?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
Was there such an operational base in Greytown?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
You see, because the reason why I ask you this question is unless I misunderstand the evidence given by Ms Pieterse, she says that prior to Sikhakane's death for three weeks prior to that, he was instructed to work in Greytown and that he was picked up every Monday morning and dropped off on Friday afternoons at their flat, from and at their flat, where he would then stay for the weekend only to be picked up the next Monday morning. This continued for three weeks, do you have any personal knowledge of that, of that period of Sikhakane's life?
MR HANTON
Yes, I do Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
And would that evidence be correct, that he was taken by Mngadi and by Ninela and perhaps others, I heard mention of a David Myeza, Spyker Myeza and that he was then taken to Greytown for the week and brought back over the weekend.
MR HANTON
Mr Chairperson, he was taken to Greytown, but when and where, the times when he was picked up and taken home for a rest period, I cannot say, I cannot remember.
MR VISSER
All right, now the question which I think the Committee might be interested in is did all of these persons that was mentioned, did they at that stage just prior to the death of Sikhakane all work in Greytown or was it a situation where only he was taken and he was left at Greytown to do whatever he had to do or can't you remember?
MR HANTON
I cannot remember, Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
You see, the reference to Sikhakane staying or living on the farm, appears to me and please stop me if I am wrong, that would only have referred to Camperdown and not to anywhere else?
MR HANTON
Yes, Camperdown Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
Where, do you know perhaps where he would have stayed in Greytown or where was he supposed to sleep over in Greytown while he was working there?
MR HANTON
I cannot remember Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
Did you know anything about relationships which he had with a Beauty and a Sitombi or I am not sure that I've got the name right, but with two ladies in Greytown where he might have slept over? Do you know anything about that?
MR HANTON
I learnt of this after his death Mr Chairperson, I learnt that he had relationships in Greytown.
MR VISSER
Now the real point is this Mr Hanton, according to Col Taylor, if one has regard to page 143 of Bundle 1, and according to the evidence of Gen Steyn of what Col Taylor had told him, it appeared that Sikhakane was absent without leave from time to time and that during one or more of these absences, I think Steyn referred to two or three of them, there was information that Sikhakane had visited Swaziland without having been authorised to do so. Do you personally have knowledge of that ever occurring?
MR HANTON
I do not have personal knowledge of that Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
If Taylor says, I know that you said a little earlier that Taylor was more intimately involved with Sikhakane, if Taylor says so, would you have any reason to doubt that that was in fact so?
MR HANTON
I would have no reason to doubt him, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER
As far as you can recall, at the end of the day when the order came or the instruction came that Sikhakane had to be eliminated, what stands out in your recollection today is the fact that he was a double-agent?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
Who did you personally work more intimately with, you say it wasn't Sikhakane, was it some of the other or one of the ...
MR HANTON
I worked with them all at various times Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
But would it have depended on any particular, on what particular operation you would be busy with, which would have indicated with whom you would be working together with at a certain point in time?
MR HANTON
It would have depended on Col Taylor, how he posted the teams to go out and work Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
At the time, and I am referring to the latter part of 1990 and the early part of 1991, what was the security situation like in Natal and if one can include Pietermaritzburg, the Midlands, Greytown, what was the situation like?
MR HANTON
There was a lot of violence at that time, Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
Did you handle any informers?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
Did Col Taylor handle any informers?
MR HANTON
Yes Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
I understand he handled quite a number of informers?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson, he had been in Natal for a very long time.
MR VISSER
Would it be fair to say that what you chaps in Natal were really concerned with, was the attack which emanated particularly from the Natal machinery in Swaziland?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
This was particularly so from 1988 onwards until 1990, 1991?
MR HANTON
That would be correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER
Would it be correct to say that even in 1991 the attack against the government, etc, as it was in 1988 from Swaziland, had remained more or less the same intensity?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
Or even worse?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
I think the question has been put to you, but just to tie up this line of questioning, at the time in 1991, would there have been any lesser motivation to - perhaps I should put this in a different way, was it still necessary to protect informers in 1991, the same as it had been before 1990?
MR HANTON
It was still necessary Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER
And according to your information and what you were aware of, was there quite a formidable network of information informers in Swaziland, which served the Security Branch in Durban with information?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER
Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON
Before we go on, can I try to clarify something. Ms Pietersen at the de Kock trial apparently said that he stayed on the farm for about three months and that after that, he returned and they started living together?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson, in the beginning when the farm started, they all lived on the farm for a long period.
CHAIRPERSON
But then he stopped that, he went and stayed with his father at Bishopstow which is in Pietermaritzburg and they then hired a flat in Pietermaritzburg.
MR HANTON
I know of the flat, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Which he lived in with Ms Pietersen?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
And she went on to say in her evidence that he was sometimes called away for a day, sometimes for a week at a time, would that be when he was sent out on a mission?
MR HANTON
Sometimes even longer, Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
If I could just follow up, so clearly at this time, they weren't living permanently and exclusively on the operational base?
MR HANTON
No, no Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Most of the askaris by the sounds of things, had found other places to live?
MR HANTON
After the initial period that they lived on the farm?
MR LAX
Yes.
MR HANTON
They all went and found other houses, a place to stay. I think one or two of them remained on the farm.
MR LAX
The initial period was at least a year prior to this incident?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR LAX
Just one other thing on this issue, I understand that Sikhakane was debriefed for a period of time, after his return to the country?
MR HANTON
That was before my time, Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Yes, Vorster alluded to that and Ms Pietersen alludes to that on another farm, she thought it was in Richmond somewhere?
MR HANTON
As I said Mr Chairperson, that was before my time.
MR LAX
You don't know about that other farm?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
You don't know for example about the Elandskop?
MR HANTON
No, I cannot remember anything like that Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Or the Thornville farm?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson.
MR WAGENER
Jan Wagener, Mr Chairman, I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SCHOLTZ
Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Hanton did you arrive at the Special Branch in Natal before Sikhakane, in other words were you here for a while before he was brought in?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson, I met Sikhakane on the farm, when the farm started up.
MR SCHOLTZ
What did his duties entail on the farm? Did they only work on the farm or were they sent out on operations from the farm?
MR HANTON
The farm was the base from where the operations were worked from, it was a place where the vehicles were kept, camping equipment was stored and from where we launched our operations.
MR SCHOLTZ
Was he ever sent out on his own for operational purposes?
MR HANTON
I cannot remember Mr Chairperson.
MR SCHOLTZ
What was the policy, would that have been permitted?
MR HANTON
The policy was that they worked in teams with a regular policeman, a senior policeman would drive the bus that they worked from.
MR SCHOLTZ
So he would have been under supervision of a regular policeman at most of the relevant times?
MR HANTON
At the times he was under his direct control, yes Mr Chairperson.
MR SCHOLTZ
Was this the position in Greytown as well?
MR HANTON
Greytown was, he had infiltrated into Greytown and it was also, he was being set up for his elimination Mr Chairperson.
MR SCHOLTZ
Did he also work under supervision there?
MR HANTON
He worked, the Branch at Greytown kept him under supervision, Mr Chairperson, yes. I cannot remember which members it was.
CHAIRPERSON
Did you say it was set up for his elimination?
MR HANTON
That was the reason why he was sent to Greytown, yes Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
And would the people at Greytown have known this?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson.
MR SCHOLTZ
Why would they have kept him under surveillance?
MR HANTON
I wouldn't say under surveillance, but they would have looked after him as far as money was concerned, and met him every day to make sure he was all right.
MR SCHOLTZ
Yes, except that was the term you used, kept him under surveillance? It has a very specific meaning, doesn't it?
MR HANTON
Yes, I must have just mis-spoken myself, Mr Chairperson.
MR SCHOLTZ
Is the evidence of Ms Pietersen correct that he was sent to Greytown approximately three to four weeks before he was eliminated?
MR HANTON
I cannot remember how long before the time it was, Mr Chairperson.
MR SCHOLTZ
Well, he was not sent there immediately before he was eliminated?
MR HANTON
I cannot remember, Mr Chairperson.
MR SCHOLTZ
Do you recall that you went to the flat where they lived shortly, the night or two nights before he was actually eliminated, to tell him that he should make himself ready to go to Greytown the next day?
MR HANTON
I do not recall something like that Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Was it that or was it something rather unusual, my recollection is that he was told he would be picked up on the Tuesday?
MR NEL
Chairperson on the evidence of Ms Pietersen, Mr Hanton arrived on the Sunday evening to tell him that he would be picked up on the Monday, but he was eventually only picked up on the Tuesday.
MR LAX
Just for the record, we are referring to page 217, paragraph 23.
CHAIRPERSON
No one picked him up on the Monday?
MR SCHOLTZ
So you do not recall this incident that you actually went to his flat to tell him to get ready?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairman, I do not recall that.
MR SCHOLTZ
Mr Hanton is it then your evidence that when he was sent to Greytown, you already knew that he had to be eliminated, because he was suspected of being a double-agent and of having been to Swaziland?
MR HANTON
Mr Chairman, I didn't know at that point of his being seen in Swaziland, but I knew that he had been, I knew of the order for his elimination.
MR SCHOLTZ
At that stage, he must already have been sitting on an information time-bomb as far as you were concerned?
MR HANTON
That would be correct Mr Chairperson, but that was Col Taylor's judgement.
MR SCHOLTZ
Yet if the evidence of Ms Pietersen is correct, he was allowed to roam the streets of Greytown for a period of three weeks before he was eliminated?
MR HANTON
As I said before Mr Chairman, I don't recall the period that he worked in Greytown.
MR SCHOLTZ
How did you contact him in order to arrange to meet him, where you did meet him?
MR HANTON
I cannot remember Mr Chairperson, I can only imagine that it would have been through members of Greytown Security Branch who were looking after him.
MR SCHOLTZ
Is the evidence correct that you first met him at a rubbish dump earlier on that day and then arranged to meet him again later on?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR SCHOLTZ
The reason for the meeting was to hand over money and his firearm to him?
MR HANTON
The reason was to make sure that he would attend the meeting at night, where we would pick him up and then take him and kill him, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Wouldn't it have seemed very odd to him that you come and contact him during the course of the day and now arrange to meet him, some kilometres out of Greytown at nine or ten o'clock at night, to hand over his firearm to him?
MR HANTON
It may seem so Mr Chairman, but that was the way I organised it.
CHAIRPERSON
I would have thought it would have aroused suspicion in his mind immediately?
MR HANTON
I don't think, I don't know Mr Chairman, he made the meeting point that night.
CHAIRPERSON
And he would have also told anybody he knew, people he was staying in Greytown where he was going and why he was going, to meet you?
MR HANTON
I don't know Mr Chairperson, that is the chance I took.
CHAIRPERSON
We have been told it was so important that nobody should know that you were involved that you had to get Vlakplaas down to do the job, now you say you went and told him and arranged to meet him later that night in some lonely spot?
MR HANTON
That was the decision I made on the ground, to put it that way, Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
... Mr Scholtz, if you would allow me. Which dump did you meet him at in Greytown?
MR HANTON
It wasn't a dump, it was a road going to a quarry, just outside Greytown Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Yes, but where outside Greytown, I know Greytown quite well, I am just interested?
MR HANTON
It is a road leading to the quarry.
MR LAX
The one that goes passed the township?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
On the other side of Greytown?
MR HANTON
The other side.
MR LAX
There is another township on that side as well?
MR HANTON
I cannot remember Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
It is just that if it is a dump as we have been told it is, people hang around dumps, they scavenge from dumps, it would be the most obvious place to be noticed meeting him?
MR HANTON
I cannot remember it being a dump Mr Chairperson, I remember it was a road to the quarry.
MR LAX
Well, everyone said it was a dump until now? Everyone said it was a refuse place?
MR HANTON
I cannot remember that Mr Chairperson, I remember it is a road to the quarry.
MR LAX
So are your colleagues all mistaken then?
MR HANTON
I won't say they are mistaken Mr Chairperson, but my memory, I just know it as a road to the quarry.
MR LAX
Yes. You see if we accept what they say and they say it was a dump, that was a place where people would scavenge on a regular basis, you may not realise this but scavenging is one of the most highly economic activities in this country, certainly from people on low income groups.
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson, as I say I know it was the road to the quarry, I don't know recalling it as a dump, that the dump was there.
MR LAX
Yes, anyway, there was no one there when you met him?
MR HANTON
There was no one there when we met him, no Mr Chairperson.
MR SCHOLTZ
Did you choose this place where you first met him, because it was secluded and you would not be seen there?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR SCHOLTZ
Why then was it necessary to take him to some other place, why couldn't he just be eliminated there at that spot?
MR HANTON
As I said Mr Chairperson, these were decisions made on the ground. It was just decided to take him just outside, the other side of Greytown and leave his body there.
MR SCHOLTZ
Did you drive the kombi to this first meeting?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairman, to the best of my recollection Swart drove the kombi.
MR SCHOLTZ
Did you at any stage drive a kombi?
MR HANTON
I cannot recall driving the kombi Mr Chairperson.
MR SCHOLTZ
Did you assist in any way to overpower Sikhakane when he got into the kombi?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson, I was sitting in the front, Britz and Nortje overpowered him.
MR SCHOLTZ
Did you assist to remove him from the kombi to where he was shot?
MR HANTON
I cannot remember assisting him out of the kombi Mr Chairperson.
MR SCHOLTZ
Is it correct that the driver of the kombi left the scene and returned later?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR SCHOLTZ
Did you accompany him?
MR HANTON
No, Mr Chairperson, I stayed up at the top with Britz and Nortje.
MR SCHOLTZ
Did you remain with them until the kombi returned?
MR HANTON
I remained with them until the kombi returned, Mr Chairperson.
MR SCHOLTZ
Did anybody go to stop the kombi on its return?
MR HANTON
Not to the best of my recollection Mr Chairperson, no.
MR SCHOLTZ
Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SCHOLTZ
ADV STEENKAMP
No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP
MR LAX
Thank you Chairperson. We have heard evidence from Mr Nortje yesterday that he knew about this man because you had come up to Pretoria with his documentation and there were problems with his wife's citizenship, we heard that whole story, you were sitting at the back, you heard that?
MR HANTON
I heard that Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
He seems to have a very clear recollection of that incident having taken place, because it formed the basis of how he knew Sikhakane, he knew about the problems with Sikhakane's appointment as a police officer?
MR HANTON
I do not remember that incident at all Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Did you know Sikhakane was having problems getting his appointment as a police officer?
MR HANTON
I did Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Were you involved in processing that application in any way?
MR HANTON
I was involved with the documentation, with the paper work, Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
So it is quite conceivable that you did actually go to Pretoria then?
MR HANTON
It is possible I accompanied Col Taylor to Pretoria with paper work, Mr Chairperson, I often accompanied him to Pretoria, accompanied Col Taylor.
MR LAX
And you are just saying that you cannot remember that?
MR HANTON
I cannot remember Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
So you won't deny that it actually happened?
MR HANTON
I cannot remember Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Did you regularly go to the flat in Halston Road, in Pietermaritzburg?
MR HANTON
I did go to the flat once or twice Mr Chairperson, yes.
MR LAX
So if Ms Pietersen says you came there on the Sunday, that would probably be correct, you wouldn't be able to deny that?
MR HANTON
I would not deny it Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Why would you have gone there on the Sunday?
MR HANTON
I don't know Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember going there.
MR LAX
You see she says that was the first time you had ever been to their home?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson, I had been there before.
MR LAX
She says that normally Mngadi and Spyker Myeza used to pick up Goodwill?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson, I have definitely been there before that.
MR LAX
Did you normally pick him up?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson, Mngadi used to pick him up.
MR LAX
Yes, so you normally did not pick him up?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson, I did not.
MR LAX
And you weren't working with him in Greytown at that time?
MR HANTON
No, the Greytown Branch were looking after him, Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Yes, but you weren't one of the handlers who were working in the Greytown operation?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Because clearly more than one person was working in Greytown according to this?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
You have told us that he infiltrated Greytown, what do you mean by that, what exactly did he do?
MR HANTON
He established himself in Greytown and become known not as an askari or a policeman, thus he was in a position to gain information.
MR LAX
And all of this was a front to kill him?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Now, when did you know that he was going to be killed?
MR HANTON
I cannot remember the time, how long before Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Was it weeks, was it months?
MR HANTON
It could have been weeks Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
And so you hatched this elaborate plot to have him transferred to Greytown?
MR HANTON
These were Col Taylor's orders, Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
The Greytown Security Branch didn't know that there was any plot to kill him?
MR HANTON
They had no knowledge of that Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
And yet they were handling him?
MR HANTON
That is correct.
MR LAX
In his undercover work?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Well, don't you think they would have missed him immediately?
MR HANTON
Well, they didn't Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Why not? This I find incredibly hard to believe, they didn't know there was anything underhand about it, they have somebody transferred for a special purpose to Greytown and he suddenly disappears, so they do nothing?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson, they launched a massive investigation into the search for him.
CHAIRPERSON
Oh, they did.
MR LAX
And then his body is subsequently discovered?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson, his body was discovered much, much - I don't think his body was discovered, he was missing, he just went missing.
MR LAX
Yes.
MR HANTON
His body wasn't found. It was found much later when Nortje brought it out.
MR LAX
What did you chaps do about it? I mean he was one of your men, you would have been the first people they would have asked about it?
MR HANTON
Mr Chairperson, Col Taylor gave Greytown Branch instructions to put out a search for him.
MR LAX
But they would have known he was missing themselves?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson, but he then gave an extra, orders above that to put out a special search for him.
MR LAX
Yes, but what did you tell them?
MR HANTON
I don't know what he told them, Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
I am wanting to know what you told them, surely you must have been questioned by them, they must have contacted you?
MR HANTON
I just said, I just denied any knowledge of what happened to him Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
But Ms Pietersen would have told them that you arrived at the flat two days before he disappeared?
MR HANTON
I do not know Mr Chairperson, what she told them, if she had told them.
MR LAX
Well you see, either they must have colluded with you and they must have realised something was wrong and they should just avoid going too deep into this matter, or they really had a proper investigation. On your version, they had a proper investigation and yet they never really spoke to you, and you were one of the people who was in command of him, one of the last people to see him alive?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson, I was one of the last to see him alive. Col Taylor put out orders for the investigation into his disappearance and then told me to keep out of it.
MR LAX
You see, on your initial version as you have just - when I started this questioning, you knew nothing about what Greytown did about the matter, suddenly you remember that they had a huge investigation?
MR HANTON
That was after his death Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Precisely. Now, all this leads to the next issue which is, you say your orders were to make sure that the body was found, that is why you left the "doppies" on the scene?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Yet, some of your colleagues who were involved in this matter, gave a very different version of that. They said the body was to be left on the top, it couldn't be seen from the top, and in fact they had an expectation that wild animals would eat the body so that it might not be found?
MR HANTON
No Chairperson, Col Taylor's orders were that the body must be found.
MR LAX
Well the point is how do you marry these two completely different versions?
MR HANTON
I do not know how to, Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
You see if those were your orders, why didn't you just shoot him somewhere close to Greytown, closer to where the violence was actually happening, because there wasn't violence happening out at Kranskop on the Kranskop road, the violence was in Greytown, in Nhlagahli and places like that, you would know that very well. Isn't it so?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
So why didn't you just dump him on the outskirts of Nhlagahli where anyone would find him and know that he was part of the violence?
MR HANTON
As I said Mr Chairperson, we just decided on groundlevel that this was what we would do.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes, but we have heard you went and looked carefully for a place to do it?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
And you found a place where the body was never found, yet your direct orders were that the body should be found?
MR HANTON
That is just how it happened Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
The two are completely and utterly irreconcilable? You concede that?
MR HANTON
That is what happened.
MR LAX
You must concede that at least?
MR HANTON
Yes Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
I am just asking you this, is it not possible that you fetched him from Greytown or from the flat, and just disposed of him in your own way?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Thank you Chairperson.
MR SIBANYONI
I've got no questions Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
We have heard evidence about how important it was that the local Security Branch should not be involved, and that is why you had to get Vlakplaas, but on your version now and Ms Pietersen, you personally go for some unknown reason on the Sunday, to visit the deceased at his flat in the presence of his wife?
MR HANTON
As I said Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember going to see him at his flat.
CHAIRPERSON
Well, she gave that evidence. You go and see him on the morning or sometime during the day to arrange yet another meeting?
MR HANTON
That was done at Greytown Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes, where he is in contact with other policemen, he is in contact with other people, he has gone there to infiltrate and yet you arrange yet another meeting with yourself later that night?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
It would appear that you were trying to make it known if anybody made enquiries, that you were the person who had made the arrangements for the deceased?
MR HANTON
That was not my object Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Why did you do it?
MR HANTON
As I said it was just a decision I made on the ground, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
As my colleague has put, you could have just gone and picked him up, taken him away, shot him somewhere and left the body if it was to be found, if that was the whole purpose?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson, but it is just not the way it was done.
CHAIRPERSON
Was Mr Taylor annoyed?
MR HANTON
He was annoyed when the body was not found.
CHAIRPERSON
Did he suggest that anything should be done to disclose where it was?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson, he said to just leave it alone.
MR LAX
Just one last thing Mr Hanton, just a follow up from the point the Chairperson raised. We heard from Gen Steyn that the whole idea of bringing Vlakplaas people in, was to keep the distance between local operatives who had things to do with Sikhakane and his elimination?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Why did you then play such a central role in this whole thing?
MR HANTON
I had no choice in that Mr Chairperson, Col Taylor gave me the orders to assist them and how to do it. I don't know what his reasoning was.
MR LAX
But all you could have done was shown them the place and then made sure you got the hell out of there, so that nobody could trace you to it?
MR HANTON
It could have been done that way Mr Chairperson, but I did not.
MR LAX
So you in fact went against the whole rational of the operation?
MR HANTON
It could be put like that Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL
Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Hanton, you obviously knew the people from Vlakplaas, this is Britz, Swart and Nortje who came down?
MR HANTON
I did Mr Chairperson, I do.
MR NEL
Did they know the area of Greytown at all?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson.
MR NEL
So you would have shown them the way?
MR HANTON
I would have shown them the way Mr Chairperson.
MR NEL
Are you aware of any problems that Mr Sikhakane had with Ms Pietersen and which she might have reported to Col Taylor?
MR HANTON
I can seem to remember that there were problems between her and him Mr Chairperson.
MR NEL
What sort of problems if you can recall?
MR HANTON
I think he was, it was drunkenness, he was abusing alcohol.
MR NEL
Did you ever get an order from Col Taylor to go and investigate that while he was still alive, possibly at the flat?
MR HANTON
It is possible I did go to the flat once or twice to do that, Mr Chairperson. I cannot remember though.
MR NEL
One last question, Mr Sikhakane did not become a policeman because he was killed, but a little bit of your involvement to try and make him a policeman, what was that all about?
MR HANTON
Mr Chairperson, he just never brought his documentation in, to the best of my recollection. The others all brought their documentation in, their school certificates, etc. He never brought in any documentation.
MR NEL
Without those documents, you could not make him a policeman?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR NEL
Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL
CHAIRPERSON
The people who had been Umkhonto trained overseas, who had come back, who had been turned and become askaris, they wouldn't have had school certificates or things of that nature, would they?
MR HANTON
Mr Chairperson, the others all brought their certificates and identity books, etc.
CHAIRPERSON
The people who had been out of the country for some time, you say they all brought ...
MR HANTON
Those that we made policemen, yes Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
Just one thing Chair, on this point. You confirmed earlier that the problem with Sikhakane wasn't anything to do with his documents, the problem was his wife's citizenship, as I put it to you, that was the Nortje story?
MR HANTON
Yes, I remember nothing of that Mr Chairperson, of her documents.
MR LAX
You see, Sikhakane got his South African citizenship, that was initially a problem, he then got his certificate, his citizenship, what Nortje told us was that Ms Pietersen couldn't get hers sorted out. He distinctly remembers that is why you were in Pretoria?
MR HANTON
As I say, I cannot remember any meeting, talking to him about anything like that Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX
But now you can remember that the problem with his application, was that he couldn't get his documents in order and things like school certificates?
MR HANTON
I can remember that Mr Chairperson, yes.
MR LAX
Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON
Just call Mr Hanton for a moment.
MR LAX
He is just outside, at the back here.
CHAIRPERSON
Mr Hanton you said that it was intended that this should look like an ANC killing and that is why the cartridges weren't picked up?
MR HANTON
That is correct Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
We have heard evidence at a previous hearing where it was intended that the killing should look like an ANC killing, and the entire magazine was fired of an AK47 because we were told that was the ANC method of committing such killings.
MR HANTON
I don't know Mr Chairperson. It was Nortje's, it was his decision to only shoot him twice or three times, as mentioned.
CHAIRPERSON
You hadn't made any enquiries to find out what was the practice the ANC used?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson, I hadn't.
CHAIRPERSON
You had no knowledge of it?
MR HANTON
No Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON
Is Mr Nortje here?
W.A. NORTJE
(s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON
I think you will remember the previous application where there was a shooting that was supposed to look like an ANC and the whole magazine was used?
MR NORTJE
That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
And I think, were you the person who after that, fired a few more shots into the body?
MR NORTJE
No, not with Brian Ngqulunga, I was not present during the shooting. However, the case of what took place here, I don't believe that I had it in mind to fire an entire magazine. At the moment I decided that it would be enough, I did not do it with the idea, at that moment I did not think that the idea was to make it look like an ANC attack. The person investigating the matter would have to draw his own inference, the fact that we used the AK and the shells, yes, the fact that we left the shells there and used the AK, that contributed to the idea.
CHAIRPERSON
But as far, are you telling us you did not, you were not told and did not do anything to make it look like a typical ANC killing, that wasn't your plan?
MR NORTJE
No, not in my mind.
CHAIRPERSON
You were the man who did the shooting?
MR NORTJE
Yes.
CHAIRPERSON
Nobody told you to, they left it to you to do the killing?
MR NORTJE
Yes, yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON
Did you think that it was the purpose that the body should be found?
MR NORTJE
I have listened to what Mr Hanton has said, I would recall that something was mentioned to that effect, but I cannot say. Well, if we didn't want the body to be found, we would for example have taken him into the bushes, we would have buried him or something, so basically that had to be the idea that at some or other time, he would have to be found.
CHAIRPERSON
Was it you, I am sorry, I cannot, I haven't had a chance to have a look at my notes, was it you who said that the body might be eaten up by wild animals?
MR NORTJE
Yes.
CHAIRPERSON
And that is one of the things you thought if you left it there, it might be taken away and destroyed by wild animals?
MR NORTJE
Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you. Any questions? Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED