amntrans
AMNESTY HEARING
1997-07-28
PIETERMARITZBURG
1
MR ROBERT V O ZUMA
0433/96
http://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54854&t=&tab=hearings
http://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pmb/zuma.htm
MR DE KLERK</B>
Thank you Mr Zuma. If he might just be sworn in please Mr Chairman.
ROBERT V O ZUMA</B>
(sworn states)
INTERPRETER</B>
You have to press the button on your mike when speaking.
EXAMINATION BY MR DE KLERK</B>
Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Zuma, is it correct that you hail from the Richmond area and that you also stayed there during June 1991?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR DE KLERK</B>
In what area did you specifically stay in Richmond during 1991?
MR ZUMA</B>
At Nkobeni, just above Nkobeni.
MR DE KLERK</B>
During 1991, what was your age?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR DE KLERK</B>
Where you a member of the IFP at that stage?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR DE KLERK</B>
Is it correct that you were brought up in the traditional Zulu way - that means that you believed in a traditional Zulu values and that you further believed in the culture in a sense of your forefathers and muti and so forth?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR DE KLERK</B>
Did you go to school?
MR ZUMA</B>
Yes, up to standard five.
MR DE KLERK</B>
Why did you leave the school at standard five?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR DE KLERK</B>
Were your parents, were they also IFP supporters?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR DE KLERK</B>
You have listened to all the evidence that was given by your co-applicant in this matter, can you tell this Commission in your own words, what happened on the 23rd of June 1991.
MR ZUMA</B>
It was on the 23rd of June 1991 - ANC members attacked our place. As a person who was standing about the place, I could soon have a feeling and I had my whistle which we had to blow when we got attacked.
ADV POTGIETER</B>
I will just ask you to go a little bit slower so we can write down what you say so just give a pause after each sentence please.
MR ZUMA</B>
As I was staying on the high area I could see them coming, they were shouting. I knew most of them because I grew up with them and we used to pass their place. They were shouting at me saying Vusi we were coming there therefore I had to blow the whistle because I knew they were coming in and they were armed and there were many. I told the other young boys to blow the whistles and we blew the whistles.
ADV POTGIETER</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
Bangi instructed us that or suggested that we should fight back and we all agreed with him. We used to be armed in most cases. We waited for some time and at about 5, because it looked as if it was going to rain and it was winter, we decided to cross and go towards their direction Tabudeni.
When we arrived at Tabudeni at the grounds we sat there because we knew that most people who were staying in that particular place - because most of the people who were staying next to area on the downhill have already vacated the place and they were running away. We were about seventeen. While we were still hiding somewhere there, one boy from the Dlamini family came out of the house - we could see because there was some moonlight and we could see that there was someone standing there and we started running towards that Dlamini place and we surrounded the house. The boy ran away after one shot was fired.
MR MPSHE</B>
MR DE KLERK</B>
I thought of one thing Mr Chairman, the witness is busy with the story and it is a quite intricate following of what happened there and I would wish it to be possible that he could just finish with his ...(inaudible)
MR MPSHE</B>
Mr Chairman, may I make this further request that the linguist must try to reduce the speed, we cannot cope. If my learned friend can just take control of him please.
MR DE KLERK</B>
Thank you. If you could just pause each now and then to try and give us chance to try understand what you are saying. Go ahead.
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Can you explain to us as to what kinds of ammunition you got from Mtusi?
MR ZUMA</B>
As we were using the homemade guns and big guns, we got ammunition for 9mm and R1 ammunitions and R4 rifles ammunition. We had different types of homemade guns. One of the guns that we had was an AK47.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
You can continue slowly.
MR ZUMA</B>
No sound.
CHAIRPERSON</B>
...(inaudible)
MR DE KLERK</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
...(inaudible)
MR DE KLERK</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
Yes, I would like to say something.
MR DE KLERK</B>
Go ahead please.
MR ZUMA</B>
MR DE KLERK</B>
Thank you Mr Chairman.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RATHMAN</B>
Thank you Sir. On this day when this incident took place, had a peace meeting between the IFP and ANC been arranged?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
Yes, it was the first time after I was arrested.
MR RATHMAN</B>
To mount this attack, did you use any vehicles at all?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
Did you see any vehicles while the attack was in progress?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
Do you know that in the course of the attack, various items of furniture were stolen, stoves and big chairs and things like that?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
furniture or equipment at all?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
When you launched the attack, did you try to disguise your appearance in any way by wearing balaclavas or any other type of disguise?
MR ZUMA</B>
We had hats but not hats that covered our faces because we wanted them to see us when they happened to see us.
MR RATHMAN</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
Well at the meeting which you had after your area had been attacked, they whistles has blown and you all met at a place, were there any of the local IFP leaders present there?
MR ZUMA</B>
They were not there, it was only the youth and some elders.
MR RATHMAN</B>
The elders, who were the elders who were there?
MR ZUMA</B>
I mean those who were older than us who were involved in the fight.
MR RATHMAN</B>
Did you make, did you or anybody else that you know of make any attempt to contact Paulas Vezi or your chief or anybody like that?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
You say that the chief stayed at the far place, is that chief Majosi?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
How far is your area from Pateni?
MR ZUMA</B>
From where? Can you repeat the question?
MR RATHMAN</B>
Koweni where you lived to Pateni?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
And others - Mr Vezi also live at Pateni?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
I thought you said a moment ago that it was a short distance from where you lived to Pateni.
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
If your IFP leaders were at Pateni surely you should have asked, sent somebody to get help from them to deal in this, with this crisis you had?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
It was because we intended to attack the ANC members because they terrorized us. They came to our place, shot us and burnt people ...(inaudible).
MR RATHMAN</B>
Did you recognise any of the people who shot you, shot at you?
MR ZUMA</B>
I knew most of them especially those from Magoda. Some of them are in prison now. These were people who were shooting police and I knew that when we arrived they might injure us.
CHAIRPERSON</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Why? Do you think the chief would have allowed you to be injured and maimed and killed by the ANC without giving you an alternative to such attacks?
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
What about the leader of the IFP in your area, was that his attitude too that you should not fight back?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
INTERPRETER</B>
May you please repeat your question.
MR RATHMAN</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
Yes, I heard in 1991 or 1992 that he died and chief Majosi died.
MR RATHMAN</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RATHMAN
CROSS-EXAMINATION MR MPSHE</B>
Honourable members, I want to make it clear that nobody ordered me to attack the deceased but I was revenging the death of my brother.
Did you hear that?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Are you saying you did not write the letter?
MR ZUMA</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
Yes, I made an application for amnesty. Yes, I would say I did write this letter. I accept the letter as written by me.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
I think in fairness to you Mr Zuma, the translation is incorrect as it stands, if you pass. You are saying and I quote
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
At the time when you launched the attack, had anything happened to your brother?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
No.
MR MPSHE</B>
Now when you say ... no English translation how can you say you revenge because your brother was injured when nothing had happened to him at the time you launched the attack?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Now if that is the position, on whose behalf were you revenging when you launched this attack?
MR ZUMA</B>
Many family members and neighbours were killed. One of the girl mother died and some other family members were injured and they were attacking the Inkatha families therefore as an Inkatha we had to pay revenge because when those others were attacked and injured, I thought I could be injured at any time.
MR MPSHE</B>
I thought I heard you say that the attack was not sanctioned or ordered or commanded by the IFP, did I hear you correctly?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Will I then be correct to state that when you went there to launch that attack, it had nothing to do with IFP as an organisation?
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
Yes.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Mr Zuma, you testified that you could see the people who were attacking you and you knew most of them, do you remember that?
MR ZUMA</B>
May you please repeat the question?
MR MPSHE</B>
In your evidence you said you could see the people who attacked you and you knew most of them.
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Do you remember saying that?
MR ZUMA</B>
I would like you to please repeat for me what I said.
MR MPSHE</B>
I could see them - that is the attackers - I could see them come, I knew most of them - the them is the attackers.
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Now of the people that you attacked, maimed and killed, are any of them some of those that you saw attack you?
MR ZUMA</B>
I would say it was the ANC members from Ndaleni because one of the persons Dumisani Ntolo. I saw him as a person whom I knew and I could recognise him.
MR MPSHE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
All right.
CHAIRPERSON</B>
You told us you saw and you recognised most of the people who attacked you, is that true or not?
MR ZUMA</B>
I put it in this way, I knew most members of the ANC in that area, not that I saw them, I knew them.
CHAIRPERSON</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
So the statement, the evidence from yourself that - I could see them come, I knew them - is incorrect?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
Did you see someone Ndaseni Ntolo?
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
But you mentioned his name earlier as someone you saw amongst the attackers, why did you do that if it was not true?
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
As having ...(inaudible) on the day in question.
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
I presume that it was not too dark when an attack was launched in your stronghold and if ...(intervention)
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
And in your evidence you actually painted quite a beautiful picture by saying you were in a strategic place, you were higher up and you could see what was going on from down there, you could vividly see the people who were coming up to attack you.
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
INTERPRETER</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
I presume you must have consulted with your lawyer?
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
Yes, I will come back to that point.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Mr Mpshe?
MR MPSHE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Now why did you kill three young boys?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
No, but it comes from - it is your evidence, you said you saw three young boys and these three young boys were killed. The word boys comes from you and you also gave evidence that your target was actually young men so it means if you could differentiate between boys and men you saw these people.
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
What you told us or told this Committee when you said you saw three young boys and you killed the three young boys, is not true?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Let us be careful Mr Zuma, you say in that house you found three young children, is that your evidence?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Three young children. You are at liberty to change, are you changing? You are liberty to do that.
CHAIRPERSON</B>
Mr Mpshe, were any young boys killed?
MR MPSHE</B>
Yes, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON</B>
Apart from the baby of three.
MR MPSHE</B>
Yes, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON</B>
Where, what count?
MR MPSHE</B>
If my young ...(inaudible) below the age of twenty one.
CHAIRPERSON</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Do you deny that you said you found three young children?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Were you armed on this day, the launching of the attack?
MR ZUMA</B>
Yes, I was armed with three, two spears and two ...(inaudible).
MR MPSHE</B>
Two spears and two what?
INTERPRETER</B>
...(inaudible)
MR ZUMA</B>
Those were knopkierries with some ...(inaudible) on top of them.
MR MPSHE</B>
Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
ADV POTGIETER</B>
Mr Zuma, in the light of your more recent version that you did not identify any of the attackers, can you explain to us why you decided to attack these particular people that victim to you and your group on the 23rd of June 1991.
MR ZUMA</B>
May you please repeat the question for me?
ADV POTGIETER</B>
Accepting your version that you did not identify any of the attackers, for what reason did you decide to attack these particular
people who fell victim to you and your group on the 23rd of June 1991?
MR ZUMA</B>
ADV POTGIETER</B>
Are you suggesting that you attacked these particular people because you were taking revenge for things that they have done prior to the 23rd of June 1991?
MR ZUMA</B>
ADV POTGIETER</B>
So your revenge had nothing to do with what happened in your area earlier on that particular day?
MR ZUMA</B>
ADV POTGIETER</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
ADV POTGIETER</B>
Yes, but now on the 23rd during this attack that you referred to in our own area, we believe from the testimony that was presented here that one person was injured, is that correct?
MR ZUMA</B>
ADV POTGIETER</B>
And your attack, your attack later that evening or that night had nothing to do with that incident - you were taking revenge for things that happened before that day?
MR ZUMA</B>
ADV POTGIETER</B>
Now during your own attacks, did the people that you attacked defend themselves or counter-attack you, was there fighting between yourselves and the people that you were attacking?
MR ZUMA</B>
ADV POTGIETER</B>
In the letter that you wrote and you were referred to earlier on page 34, point 2 of our papers, you say the following in the last paragraph, - the very last sentence or perhaps I should read the entire paragraph for you just to get the context. You say
Do you confirm that?
MR ZUMA</B>
Yes, I do. I do accept that.
ADV POTGIETER</B>
What do you mean by - it was like terrorizing the community?
MR ZUMA</B>
ADV POTGIETER</B>
Which community are you referring to in your letter that was being terrorized?
MR ZUMA</B>
ADV POTGIETER</B>
Regarding the attack of your group as terrorizing that particular community that you were attacking or what were you trying to say here?
MR ZUMA</B>
ADV POTGIETER</B>
Now we know that a number of women were killed, some very seriously injured and at least one child as well - in fact it was put to co- Applicant Mr Gumbi earlier, that after one person was injured in the early attack in your area, about twelve people were killed in the attack of your own group. Are you saying that the action, the conduct of members of your group including women and children - that was terrorizing the community?
INTERPRETER</B>
May you please the last part of your question.
ADV POTGIETER</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Now in the application which I have, is this your handwriting?
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Did you in fact engage in a fight against the people who came to launch an attack at the people in your area?
INTERPRETER</B>
Could you please repeat the question?
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Did you and your colleagues, other IFP members engage in any fight with the people who came to your area to launch an attack on the 23rd of June because this is what appears in your application. Do you want me to read the portion?
MR ZUMA</B>
Yes, read for me.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
I will read it.
The IFP and Inkatha people were fighting at Ndaleni. ANC members arrived in the evening at Nkobeni to attack - we fought. After that we attacked them at their place. We fought at that night.
I will not succeed with the rest of that further. What I wanted to know is, did you at any stage engage in a fight with the people who came to launch an attack in your area?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
You are saying that when you were attacked, you did not in fact fight back, you ran away for cover and later re-grouped to launch a retaliatory attack?
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
And during those attacks against your area, did you suffer serious casualties, did many people in your area die?
MR ZUMA</B>
Yes, many people died.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
How many approximately?
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Now when did this conflict start, when did the fighting start between you and the ANC in your area?
MR ZUMA</B>
If I remember well it started in January 1991. I would say on the 1st of January 1991.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
And before then, was there peace and tranquillity in your area?
MR ZUMA</B>
There was nothing. There had been some few fights at some other places but we were not involved. I would say from Kobeni to Makota there had been peace and tranquillity in that area.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
Yes, that is correct because it is the very same war that started in 1991, January.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Now were these attacks discussed with the leadership of the IFP?
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Was there any meeting of the IFP in your area?
MR ZUMA</B>
There were no meetings held in that area -people were fighting and we were just protecting people.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
Mtusi.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Mr Mtusi - thank you. You had to get ammunition from Mr Mtusi, how did you know that you could get ammunition from Mr Mtusi?
MR ZUMA</B>
We had to pass Magoda on our way to Ndaleni and we knew that there IFP members in that area.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
How did you know that Mtusi could give you the kind of ammunition that you wanted, you had a variety of firearms that you had to load with those ammunitions you got from Mr Mtusi.
MR ZUMA</B>
Yes.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Was he the person who was customarily supplying such ammunition to IFP members in the area?
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR ZUMA</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
"We ran out of ammunition and we went to Mr Mtusi to get ammunition - not we were passing by - we went there to get it".
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
MR DE KLERK</B>
Mr Chairman, maybe I can assist the Chair. I do have my consultation notes with me that was taken long before this hearing and in my consultation notes it is as the witness I testifying - that it was on the way. If that could assist the Chair in any way.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
...(inaudible)
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
You did not correct him and you were leading him.
MR DE KLERK</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
I understand Mr de Klerk. Do you know Mr Zuma, where Mr Mtusi obtained the ammunition he was able to give you on that night?
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Do you know where the members of, the people that were with you, where they obtained the firearms they were using that night?
MR ZUMA</B>
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Thank you Mr Zuma.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DE KLERK</B>
One question Mr Chairman maybe two. Was it the position during that time that most of the people actually had weapons, either manufactured weapons or homemade weapons - most of the people in that area of Richmond were walking around with weapons because of this war?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR DE KLERK</B>
And most of the people in that area also had ammunition for those weapons?
MR ZUMA</B>
MR DE KLERK</B>
Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE KLERK
MR DE KLERK</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
...(inaudible)
MR RATHMAN</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
...(inaudible)
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Can you give us your full names? Can you hear me? Can you hear me?
MRS DLAMINI</B>
Yes, I can.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Can you please give us your full names?
MR DLAMINI</B>
My names are Recoria Judith Dlamini.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Are you prepared to take an oath?
MRS DLAMINI</B>
Yes.
MRS KHAMPEPE</B>
Can you please stand to take the oath?
RECORIA JUDITH DLAMINI</B>
(sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR RATHMAN</B>
On the 23rd of June 1991 when it got dark in the evening, were you at home with your family?
MRS DLAMINI</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
And who was with you in the house at the time?
MRS DLAMINI</B>
It was my mother Emily Dlamini, Elsie Dlamini and Happy Dlamini and also Richard Dlamini.
MR RATHMAN</B>
Now your home was attacked that night.
MRS DLAMINI</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
Can you tell us what happened in that attack?
MRS DLAMINI</B>
Yes, I can explain.
MR RATHMAN</B>
Please tell us.
MRS DLAMINI</B>
It was on the 23rd of June 1991 on Sunday. We were from a meeting at Ndahwa. It was Richard, Elsie, Happy and myself, we were going back home. We arrived at home, we found my mother. Elsie and Happy wanted to go back to school. We were from a meeting for peace between IFP and ANC.
When we arrived at home, my mother gave us food. We sat down and ate the food. Later two young men arrived, they asked for Richard and they took him with them. After some few minutes after they left, the two boys - two young men and Richard, one of his friends came by the name of Mbekeni Mkhize and he asked the whereabouts of Richard. I told him that Richard had been taken away by two young men who were his friends however he said that when you arrived you must wait for him.
CHAIRPERSON</B>
Could you ask the ...(inaudible) to slow down a little.
MRS DLAMINI</B>
After that the young man, after he ran away I hid behind the door. The people arrived. One of them was in front of them holding a gun and he put the gun through the door and I moved back. He pulled out the gun and he pointed it at the two young ladies who were standing at the end of the door, he shot the first shot and killed the first one, then shot the second one.
MR RATHMAN</B>
Will you continue?
MRS DLAMINI</B>
Yes. After that this half door which was supported by two iron bars - one of them said get inside and stab them with spears. They took off this half door and got into the house. Whilst in the house - and we could see that they were going to, the other is going to stab with the spears. They ran towards where my mother was lying under the skins and they took off the skins. My mother said ...(inaudible) to write and they started stabbing at my mother and the children, the two ladies started crying, saying why are you shooting at us, why are you killing us because we are not fighting and the old woman asked - why are you killing us but nobody answered.
MR RATHMAN</B>
Could you continue? You said the children said - why are they attacking you?
MRS DLAMINI</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
MRS DLAMINI</B>
I saw the car before going to the Kunene family, it was a van which ...(inaudible) the people who were inside - this was the van that we usually see which was used by the riot squad. Those were the people dressed in camouflage clothes. When we came out from the Kunene house, I asked one young man to come and help us to take my mother and my younger sister to hospital because one of them, Elsie, has already passed away. I put clothes over him and put a pillow below the head and I asked him to help me to take those who managed to survive.
After some time the police came to tell us that they came and one young man from Dwalane lighted the candle. And the ANC leader Sebiso Kabinda came and he asked who did this and I explained to him that there was one man who was an IFP member was together with these people who attacked us.
MR RATHMAN</B>
Was that man one of the Applicants today, Gumbi?
MRS DLAMINI</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
At the time of the attack, how was Gumbi armed?
MRS DLAMINI</B>
May you please repeat the question?
MR RATHMAN</B>
MRS DLAMINI</B>
MR RATHMAN</B>
Right, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON</B>
...(inaudible)
MR DE KLERK</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
...(inaudible)
MR DE KLERK</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
...(inaudible)
MR DE KLERK</B>
No, no, it seems that there is a suggestion that there was a vehicle ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON</B>
...(inaudible)
MR DE KLERK</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
...(inaudible)
MR MPSHE</B>
Mr Chairman, I know of no typed copy. What we normally request is a Judgement and ... sentence only.
MR DE KLERK</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
MR DE KLERK</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
Shall we do it that way, do as much as we can today. Are you all available tomorrow morning?
MR DE KLERK</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
Tomorrow will be too quickly for you to get any ...(intervention).
MR DE KLERK</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
...(inaudible) ... the basis for questioning.
MR MPSHE</B>
MR DE KLERK</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
The problem is if you can find it.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE</B>
That is another issue. Mr
MRS DLAMINI</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
And the Applicants amongst others are before this Committee for amnesty.
INTERPRETER</B>
Could you please repeat your questions?
MR MPSHE</B>
The Applicants are before this Committee for amnesty.
MRS DLAMINI</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
MRS DLAMINI</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Now what is your feeling, how do you feel about them asking for amnesty for what they did?
MRS DLAMINI</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
CHAIRPERSON</B>
...(inaudible)
INTERPRETER</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
I think Wednesday might be a bad choice in that we are on Wednesday I think, having the other side.
MR DE KLERK</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
Thursday or Friday.
MR DE KLERK</B>
Thursday is a very good day for me because I will be in Maritzburg or I would have been in Maritzburg anyway.
CHAIRPERSON</B>
Thursday ...(inaudible)
MR DE KLERK</B>
The 31st.
CHAIRPERSON</B>
All right. This case will not be finished today, we are going to adjourn it to Thursday if that arrangement can be made, if Mrs Dlamini can be available here on Thursday. Is it possible for her to ...(intervention)
MRS DLAMINI</B>
Yes, I will be available.
CHAIRPERSON</B>
You will be here Mr Mpshe?
MR MPSHE</B>
Yes certainly Mr Chairman, I will be here Mr Chairman but I wanted to ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON</B>
I would suggest that if after listening to the tape tomorrow, you do discover something that you should get in touch with the other representatives and inform them to what it is so if they want to go and verify or check they can do so.
MR DE KLERK</B>
Only with pleasure Mr Chairman.
MR MPSHE</B>
Mr Chairman?
CHAIRPERSON</B>
What?
MR MPSHE</B>
CHAIRPERSON</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Half past 8, Mr Chairman ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON</B>
MR MPSHE</B>
Yes, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON</B>
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS