CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msimango, can you just give us your full names?
CHAIRPERSON: And just for the record, how does one spell your second name, Mosa, how does one spell that?
MR MSIMANGO: M-O-S-A.
CHAIRPERSON: And your surname, can you just give the spelling of your surname as well?
MR MSIMANGO: M-S-I-M-A-N-G-A.
CHAIRPERSON: Msimango?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, Msimango.
MOSA DANTON MSIMANGO: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down. Mr Sibeko?
EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Msimango, you've also applied for amnesty, is that correct?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, that's correct.
MR SIBEKO: We are now aware that the previous applicants were applying because they had a hand in the activities of the Committee of Seven, now your application, in what activity did you participate which necessitates your application for amnesty?
MR MSIMANGO: I'm applying for amnesty because I was a leader of the soldiers as a commander and I was the link between the Committee of Seven and the soldiers.
MR SIBEKO: Now you were a commander of ama ...(indistinct) or the soldier and you were the link between those soldiers and the committee, which Committee of Seven? For which area is the Committee of Seven that you are referring to?
MR MSIMANGO: The Committee of Seven was from Lusaka-Section-A.
MR SIBEKO: Now Mr Msimango, what we are talking about here is a section known Thabanzimbi and - Thabanzimbi, thank you, and you were a commander of the Self Defence Unit for which section?
MR MSIMANGO: It was called Thabanzimbi and I was commander of Thabanzimbi as well.
MR SIBEKO: As a matter of interest, how did you come about to become a commander of such a unit?
MR MSIMANGO: At the time when I was a member, before I became a commander, it has been explained that Mfinos was a commander and did not abide by the laws and a meeting was convened at a certain school, that is when I was elected to be a leader of the soldiers.
MR SIBEKO: Now are you in a position to state your role as a commander over the soldiers or ama ...(indistinct)?
MR MSIMANGO: Please repeat your question, I did not understand it quite well.
MR SIBEKO: What was your role as a commander?
MR MSIMANGO: First of all my duty was to ensure that the soldiers are safe. Secondly, was to ensure that their behaviour was appropriate. The third one, I was a link between the Committee of Seven and the soldiers. The fourth point, I was a person who would give instructions to defend the community and I had my right-hand or my assistant by the name of Sipho Mgubane(?) with whom I will discuss these matters at the time. Lastly, I was a person who was vigilant, or I was a person who was always looking after the weapons that we were using.
MR SIBEKO: Now my understanding is that you issued out instructions to the soldiers, is that right?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, that is correct.
MR SIBEKO: In return, where did you receive your instructions?
MR MSIMANGO: I received my instructions from the Committee of Seven.
MR SIBEKO: Now evidence has already been led to the effect that there was a contribution made by the members of the community and arms were purchased, it's further evidenced that the commander before you took over was removed and you were given control of those arms which were removed from him, what happened to those arms?
MR MSIMANGO: When we reached a stable situation the guns were taken to the stadium. Some of them got lost during the fight or the conflict. And there was a raid by SADF in various houses and they confiscated such weapons.
MR SIBEKO: Now my understanding is that you were a commander and that is why you are applying for amnesty. Do you have any specific ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.
MR SIBEKO: Do you have any specific instances that you would want us to look into in your application, that is where you were actually directly involved in the defence of the community as you say?
MR MSIMANGO: First of all I'd like to explain that as a commander I was part of the unit. I was not only a leader, I was always hands-on with the other soldiers. Now the application - the amnesty I'm applying for is with regard to the activities that we carried out in such areas as no-go areas and Mandela and Mazibuko Street.
MR SIBEKO: Do you want to tell us what happened in those areas which you have just referred to?
MR MSIMANGO: I'll first talk about Penduka. We were defending the community, our community at Penduka. We would launch the counter-attacks. Each time the IFP has attacked us it would push our community to a certain distance and when we get there we'll launch a counter-attack and push them backwards and stop at a particular area.
The reason behind this was that they were always pushing us first and the community would lose their property and their assets and some of the houses would be destroyed. Now that is with regards to Penduka.
Now coming to Mandela Section, as commanders there would be a time when we will convene and discuss about how we can help one another, and it came to surface one time that Bonga Nkosi, one commander, asked for assistance and we rendered assistance to him in a fight.
MR SIBEKO: Now let's go back to Penduka. You are using this word "counter-attack" and I want to understand what you actually mean because you initially state that the attackers or as you say, the IFP, used to come in your area or your section and chase you or push you further and the area where you ran away from they occupy it and then you regroup thereafter and try to push then out of your area. Is that what you mean by counter-attack?
MR MSIMANGO: I'm trying to explain that each time the IFP attacked us, they would attack us in such a way that we will vacate our area and get right deep in the residential area and that is where we will get ourselves grouped according to sections, because they will occupy the area after we have left it and then we will regroup ourselves and come back and push them as well towards their places or their residential places.
MR SIBEKO: Now a lot has been said about the Central Command Structure, what do you know about it and what was its role?
MR MSIMANGO: This central command structure, I was a member. This was a structure that would arrange commanders and other organisations as well. In actual fact what I would say is this structure, the important factor about this structure was the behaviour, it will insist on behaviour and the code of conduct as well as to how we approach our fight.
MR SIBEKO: Were there specific instructions or orders which were issued out by the Central Command Structure to anybody?
MR MSIMANGO: No, there were no such orders or instructions, I would gather my instructions from the committee.
MR SIBEKO: Now you've just stated that there were times where you exchanged fire with the IFP, are you in a position to state whether from your side or from your soldiers you killed or injured anybody? Are you in a position to pinpoint as to the identity of the people whom you were fighting with?
MR MSIMANGO: It's quite difficult for me to identify that because in a fight situation it's not easy to identify people, things would happen abruptly and it's not easy for me to state exactly as to who they are and their identity.
MR SIBEKO: Now there's also evidence to the effect that there was a serious mistrust between the community members and the ISU, if I may say, what is your perception about it?
MR MSIMANGO: I do agree with what has been said already because one time it so happened that although I don't have a clear recollection inasfar as dates are concerned, but it was New Year's Eve and I saw them personally, the members of ISU coming to off load the members of IFP in our area and each time they would get into our area there would be fights that would erupt.
MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to assume that you agree that through the actions of your soldiers there were people that might have died and there people who might have got injured in the process?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, I do agree.
MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Advocate Steenkamp?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, if you could allow me a few questions.
Mr Msimango, you referred to the Committee to the Penduka incident or the Penduka shooting incident, is that correct?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, that's correct.
ADV STEENKAMP: Now if I have it correct, Penduka is the area starting from Buthelezi Street upwards, is that correct?
MR MSIMANGO: The way I know Penduka, it begins from Mguni Street(?) and way up.
ADV STEENKAMP: Now this was an incident if I understand it correctly, and this is also my information, my question is this, certain SDU members were armed with AK47s and on your instructions they also fired with those firearms, those AKs, do you know if anybody was injured or even killed?
MR MSIMANGO: Please repeat your question.
ADV STEENKAMP: My question is purely this, at the Penduka area there was a shooting incident, do you agree with me?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, I do agree with you.
ADV STEENKAMP: Among other people there were also SDU members who were under your command with AK47s, do you agree with me?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, I do agree.
ADV STEENKAMP: Now my question is this, my information is that those members, those armed SDU members were also involved in the actual shooting incident itself, do you know anything about that?
MR MSIMANGO: I don't quite understand your question. As you are interpreting I don't hear purely.
INTERPRETER: May we have the intervention of the technician please?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry, I will try and put the question again if you will allow me.
Mr Msimango, my third question I will repeat for you again, it's this, those SDU members at the Penduka Section that were involved in the shooting incident, do you know at that stage or did they report back to you whether or not anybody was killed or not at that incident?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, I know that perfectly well because before we went there we used to use hand radios and we could communicate with other sections. And another thing was, when there is an attack we will see a group of people shouting and screaming and we will hear gunshots left right and centre and we will know very well that the attack has started.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you indicate to us who those SDU members were who were involved in this Penduka incident, do you know who they were?
MR MSIMANGO: I won't be able to mention their names but I know their codenames and I know their commanders as well because we were working together.
ADV STEENKAMP: Now do you know if they actually killed anybody or injured anybody at that incident?
MR MSIMANGO: I won't agree to that because in a fight I will not be in a position to look around and gather as to what other people are doing.
ADV STEENKAMP: You see Sir, according to my information there is at least four other applicants who will refer to you as being the commander for this specific Penduka incident. Now my question to you is this, why are you not mentioning this specific incident in your amnesty application?
MR MSIMANGO: Please repeat your question.
ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, my question is easy, why did you not refer to this incident in your amnesty application, I mean your written amnesty application?
MR MSIMANGO: You are telling the truth. I decided to approach this incident generally or this whole thing generally because some other things I don't remember. I am not in a position to recall.
ADV STEENKAMP: Is this the only incident - let's go to another incident. Do you have any knowledge of the so-called Mazibuko incident?
ADV SANDI: I'm sorry, Mr Steenkamp, maybe before we go on to the next incident, when was this incident, this Penduka incident?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry I left that out. It apparently occurred before the 1994 elections, just shortly before the elections, in the Penduka Section. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
ADV SANDI: Are you able to remember that? When was this incident?
MR MSIMANGO: I remember the year but I don't remember the dates and the month. I know for a fact it was in 1994 because I took over the position in 1994.
ADV SANDI: Was it the only incident which took place at Penduka?
MR MSIMANGO: The fight was continuous because it started in 1993 at the border.
ADV SANDI: No, I'm talking about clashes between your group and the IFP people at Penduka. Was that the only incident where the two groups had clashed?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, because that is where we would defend the community at Penduka and in Mazibuko as well, but more often than not we would be at Penduka.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, if I can proceed.
Sir, do you have any knowledge of the so-called Mazibuko incident which occurred in 1993? Do you have any knowledge of that?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, I have knowledge with regard to that. This is why I did touch on Mazibuko earlier on.
ADV STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying you also gave the orders there for the SDUs, where a shooting incident also occurred there?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: Was anybody injured or killed during that incident?
MR MSIMANGO: To be honest I won't be able to say because in a war situation you are not able to tell what the next person is doing or who has been killed or injured.
ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, you previously stated that you had even radio communication, didn't the SDUs report back to you that there was somebody killed or injured? Didn't you receive any feedback after the incident?
MR MSIMANGO: No, I was not contacted.
ADV STEENKAMP: And my question is, why was this incident also not mentioned in your written amnesty application?
MR MSIMANGO: I have already explained that there are things that I don't remember quite well, this is why my approach of amnesty is general.
ADV STEENKAMP: Do you have any knowledge of an incident which occurred at Mshayazafe? It happened on or exactly on the 19th of April 1994.
Mr Chairman, I will spell that name for you. I'm sure I did not pronounce it correctly but I will spell it for you: M-S-H-A-Y-A-Z-A-F-E, and it occurred on the 19th of April 1994.
Do you have any knowledge of this incident, Mr Msimango?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, I have knowledge, I bear knowledge to this effect.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you give us the detail, what exactly your knowledge is on this incident?
MR MSIMANGO: This is how it happened. It was on a Tuesday, Inkatha Freedom Party arrived and harassed us at our residential area. They shot indiscriminately and left immediately. I was early hours of the morning. We came back and got ourselves prepared to revenge. We went as far as the hostel and suddenly the ISU approached and started shooting at us and we had to run away and we fled the scene.
ADV STEENKAMP: Who gave the orders for this incident, of this shooting incident?
MR MSIMANGO: Please explain to me with regard to this incident, what do you mean who gave orders with regard to this incident?
ADV STEENKAMP: Well was there any planning done for this incident, who managed the SDUs? Who told them to go to this specific place or were they not under any instructions?
MR MSIMANGO: As I've already explained in the past we did not plan as such. We would react to what will be happening at the time. We will not sit down and plan the attack but we will just revenge as it happens.
ADV STEENKAMP: Was anybody killed to your knowledge or was any report given back to you about any injuries?
MR MSIMANGO: What I will say and that I know is that on that particular day one boy who was coming from the same section as me was injured on that particular day. As to others I'm not in a position to exactly say what happened to them because in a war situation as you may know, it's not easy to identify what's happening.
ADV STEENKAMP: What exactly was your role in this incident, Mr Msimango?
MR MSIMANGO: I was defending the community in this incident because the IFP had already attacked and we were trying to push them back until we got to their residential place and then we were pushed back by the ISU.
ADV STEENKAMP: Were you also involved in the actual shooting, were you armed with an AK47 or what exactly did you do?
MR MSIMANGO: I have already explained earlier on that I was a commander. I was a commander who was sort of backing the jockey and I would be right there with them and act.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Msimango, maybe I didn't understand your previous answers but I'm going to ask you again. Why is your written application so general, why is it not specific as has been asked in the application itself? It seems to me that you can clearly remember these incidents.
MR MSIMANGO: When I was filling in the application we did not think that we will be posed with questions such as what happened and recall that you did this on this particular day. We did not have diaries in our possession to record these incidents. I was not even at home, I would always be at the border to keep guard, to an extent that I cannot recall incidents as they happened and on particular days.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Msimango, - Mr Chairman, if you can bear with me for a second, I just want to ask for some information on certain other applications where people are also referring to Mr Msimango. If you would allow me that, Mr Chairman.
Mr Msimango, one of the other applicants, Mr Simphiwe Godfrey Ndlovu is applying for amnesty for cleaning firearms apparently under your instruction.
Mr Chairman, that is application number 7075/97.
Do you have any knowledge of this person being under your direct command?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, I know him.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you explain to us what exactly was his role, for what was he used?
MR MSIMANGO: I didn't hear the question, would you please repeat.
ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, my question is purely this, what exactly was the role of Mr Simphiwe Godfrey Ndlovu of whom you were the commander at that stage? What was his function as an SDU?
MR MSIMANGO: I was using him for two purposes. First of all, he was a young man who I would use to inform us in the event of police coming also. And on our way back from attacks, I would always send him around to run errands like cleaning the firearm. He was not always alone, there were others as well.
ADV STEENKAMP: Was he involved in any shooting incident or asked to retaliate or anything like that, or was he never involved in any incident, as far as you know?
MR MSIMANGO: As far as I know he was not involved in shooting.
ADV STEENKAMP: Now Mr Msimango, I have to ask you a similar question relating to Mr Tulani Richard Mbatha.
Mr Chairman, this is an applicant whose application is number 7027/97.
Now Mr Mbatha, do you know Mr Mbatha? He's also an applicant.
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, I know him.
ADV STEENKAMP: He was also an SDU member, can you just indicate to the Committee what his role was as an SDU member?
MR MSIMANGO: His role was the same as that of Simphiwe.
ADV STEENKAMP: And that of Mr Aubrey Matlema Maile?
Mr Chairman, application number 7694/97.
What was his role, was it similar to the other two as well?
ADV SANDI: What page is that, Mr Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, the application of Mr Aubrey Matlema Maile, it's application number 7694/97. I don't have the application directly in front of me but I could look it up quickly if you could bear with me for one second, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, that will appear on page 281 of the bundle.
Do you have the question, Mr Msimango? Can you answer the question please.
MR MSIMANGO: I did not hear the question quite well because the interpreter did not relay the question to me.
ADV STEENKAMP: My question is purely this, Mr Aubrey Matlema Maile, at that stage he was 12 years old, what was his function as an SDU member?
MR MSIMANGO: He too was playing the same role as the other two.
ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, is there anything else that you would like to add to your amnesty application, any specific details which you can remember today, apart from the three incidents which I related to you, which is the Penduka and the other two incidents?
MR MSIMANGO: I think that's all.
ADV STEENKAMP: Were you yourself ever physically involved in any shooting incident yourself, by handling a firearm and by shooting at people, whoever they may be?
MR MSIMANGO: I have explained earlier on that in a fighting situation one does not really concentrate on who is being shot now because we also shared these firearms.
ADV STEENKAMP: I think you misunderstood me. My question is, were you ever personally, yourself, involved in an incident where you were carrying a firearm? Do you understand my question? In other words, were you involved in a reprisal attack or whatever it may be? Yourself personally, did you handle an AK47 in an incident where the SDUs were involved in?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, I did carry an AK47.
ADV STEENKAMP: And were you involved in a shooting incident, Mr Msimango?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, I used to fire shots as well because I was leading these soldiers to war. I also used the AK47.
ADV STEENKAMP: And can you give us the details of these incidents which you can remember please?
MR MSIMANGO: As I have said earlier on, this is the Penduka incident, the Mshayazafe incident and the Mazibuko incident. Those are the incidents where I used my AK47.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I understand the process here but I have to ask this question.
Why, when you had the opportunity, why didn't you tell the Chairperson or even in your amnesty application, that you were actually yourself involved in the incident, when you were asked?
ADV GCABASHE: Can I just understand the question? Sorry, M Msimango.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, my question is purely this, why didn't the applicant when he had the opportunity to relate the detail, not tell the yourself that he was actually himself involved in the shooting incident. He never said that. Maybe I'm mistaken but that's how I understood it.
ADV SANDI: Does he not say, Mr Steenkamp, at paragraph 7(b) where it says: "State the capacity in which you served, institution, body..." and so on and so on, does he not say there he was the commander of SDUs in Lusaka? If you are a commander does it not go without saying that you would have to be there physically to oversee the process of attacks?
ADV STEENKAMP: Maybe Mr Chairman, I misunderstood his answer then because my understanding of it was that he gave the instructions. My understanding was never that he was actually physically on the scene with an AK47 during the shooting incidents because that's definitely not what the applicant has testified.
ADV GCABASHE: And yet, Mr Steenkamp, that's the sense I had from his testimony, that he went out with the guys because he was in command. ...(Zulu)
ADV STEENKAMP: I would just put the question in another way.
While you were handling the firearm, Mr Msimango, you were never aware of or you can't remember any persons being injured or killed as far as your knowledge goes?
MR MSIMANGO: I would not be in the position to remember because I did indicate that in a fighting situation one is torn between the IFP and the Stability Unit and therefore it's very difficult to tell.
ADV GCABASHE: But on the same point, would you hear reports the next day about, either in the newspaper or just by word of mouth, about the number of people, IFP people who may have been killed in the incident the night before? You know when you knew you had been retaliating. That's I think the type of thing that Mr Steenkamp would like to know.
MR MSIMANGO: I don't know how I would have got information from the IFP because we were not in good terms.
ADV GCABASHE: No, even using the example of reading in the newspapers, just that type of thing.
MR MSIMANGO: I did not have time to read the newspaper because I had left home. I was not staying at home.
ADV GCABASHE: So you are essentially saying that whatever casualties you inflicted on the other side, you haven't got a clue as to how many or what the nature of those casualties might have been, is that really what you are saying?
MR MSIMANGO: Exactly.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, my last question if you will allow me.
Sir, if I read the background of the SDUs, the code of conduct and all that, it seems to me that there was a fair amount of training being done on SDUs as well, they had a specific code of conduct, would you agree with that?
MR MSIMANGO: I don't know about that.
ADV STEENKAMP: Are you saying now that there was no code of conduct for the SDUs, as far as your knowledge goes?
MR MSIMANGO: I know the code of conduct. When you are talking about training, there are so many ways of training. I didn't know you were referring to the code of conduct, I thought you were referring to the training.
ADV STEENKAMP: So before I go to my question, were SDU members actually undergo any training with firearms or whatever, were they ever trained?
MR MSIMANGO: No, we used to learn along the way as we were shooting, as we were fighting.
ADV STEENKAMP: My real question is - my last question to you is, you see those applicants I was referring you to, Mr Simphiwe Godfrey Ndlovu, Mr Mbatha and Mr Maile, they were respectively 10 years old and 12 years and 12 years. My question is this, why did you use such young children to be involved in your warfare as you would like to put it?
MR MSIMANGO: To answer this question I would say that there was no young, there was no old, we all had to go and fight.
ADV STEENKAMP: And even the children, you made them involved in your war?
MR MSIMANGO: As I have said - you indicated that these were young boys, I would delegate them to do certain things but they would not go to war.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman for your indulgence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
ADV SANDI: Mr Msimango, should I understand you to say today that there were so many confrontations between your group, that is the SDUs and the group from the other side of the IFP, so many of these conflicts that you are not able to say how many there were, you are not able to give such details, is that correct?
MR MSIMANGO: Would you please repeat the question.
ADV SANDI: All in all, how many confrontations, physical confrontations did you have between the SDUs and the IFP group during the time in question?
MR MSIMANGO: It's difficult to say because this would happen every day.
ADV SANDI: You would not be able to say how many people perhaps died from your side? Would you be able to say how many were killed from the side of the SDUs, if any?
MR MSIMANGO: I don't know which group you are referring to, my group or the entire Thokoza group? I do not quite follow.
ADV SANDI: Your group, I'm talking about your group, the group you were commanding.
MR MSIMANGO: Nobody got injured in my group and nobody died.
ADV GCABASHE: Mr Msimango, I would just like to understand the structure of the command system. You have referred to the Central Command Structure, yes?
MR MSIMANGO: ...(no English translation)
ADV GCABASHE: I simply want to understand the command structure. You have referred to the Central Command Structure, yes?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, I did refer to that structure.
ADV GCABASHE: Now this was a separate structure to the Committee of Seven, was it not?
MR MSIMANGO: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: Now who were the people who made up this Central Command Structure? I know you were a member, who were the other people?
MR MSIMANGO: In our section, the section that is now called Lusaka, I would refer to Dumisani Mbatha, Glen Vilakazi and we also had Bonga Nkosi, the chief commander and Lucky. I don't know whether I should refer to them all.
ADV GCABASHE: Were they members of the Committee of Seven?
MR MSIMANGO: Let me explain it as follows. I'm including Dumisani and Glen Vilakazi because they were part of the two structures, the Committee of Seven and the other structure. This group was divided into half and they would serve in both committees.
ADV GCABASHE: You have also talked about your commanders, so the idea I have is you were in a sense the commander-in-chief, then you had commanders below you, is that right?
MR MSIMANGO: That is not correct. I was a commander commanding the soldiers on the ground and above me we had the Committee of Seven.
ADV GCABASHE: So when you were in command of a particular operation you never split up into sub-groups, it's this one group that would follow the IFP chaps who had been attacking you, one group?
MR MSIMANGO: It sometimes happened because we would have different sections coming together and sometimes we would split.
ADV GCABASHE: Now this is part of my problem, Mr Msimango. ...(Zulu). I was not there therefore I do not quite understand how these other sections came to be part of your section, would you please explain this.
MR MSIMANGO: Okay, let me explain it as follows. In any area where there was an attack, like Thambo Slovo and Lusaka, we are separated by streets and that is why we are different sections and if there is any attack going on we too would be victims. That is why we had to come together to be one big thing.
ADV GCABASHE: Now having explain the street sections in a sense, were all of these people then accountable to the Committee of Seven? Just to help me understand this morning's evidence and what you are saying to me now.
MR MSIMANGO: No, the Committee of Seven concentrated on our section.
ADV GCABASHE: If I can switch back to Zulu. Now what about these other sections, who was in charge in these other sections?
MR MSIMANGO: The other sections had their own commanders.
ADV GCABASHE: Then just a final aspect. Really your activities were very limited, it was 1993 to 1994, a fairly short period of time considering that the violence had really started in 1990, am I right?
MR MSIMANGO: Yes, we started operating in 1993 even though the violence started in 1990. When this started we thought it was something between the people from the hostel and Polla Park but as time went on the situation got tense in that each time the IFP attacked, on their way back they would just attack indiscriminately. That is when the committee rose to say something had to be done.
Each time we had to go to town we had to give them something along the way, that is the IFP people, to buy our passage of way.
ADV GCABASHE: Now your unit, did you at any stage assist the Polla Park people in their fight against the perpetrators?
MR MSIMANGO: No, we did not. Our unit was not yet in place at the time.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, any re-examination?
MR SIBEKO: None Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msimango, thank you very much, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Now that seems to conclude the testimony that we will be hearing today. I will under those circumstances adjourn the hearing until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
