MR MOHLABA: May I now call on Alfred Kgase. Thank you, Chair. Mr Kgase wants to give his testimony in Sotho.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that also Northern Sotho, Mr Kgase.
MR KGASE: Northern Sotho.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kgase, do you have any objection to taking the oath?
ALFRED KGASE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chair.
Mr Kgase, on the 4th of June 1988, there was an attack on a residence of Mr Mveke, did you take part in that attack?
MR KGASE: Yes, I did.
MR MOHLABA: And during this period, did you belong to any political organisation?
MR KGASE: I was a member of the ANC and then again a member of the MK.
MR MOHLABA: Do you remember when you joined the ANC and its military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe?
MR KGASE: Yes, I do.
MR MOHLABA: Tell the Committee.
MR KGASE: It was in 1987.
MR MOHLABA: Can you explain with full details how you came to join this organisation and its military wing?
MR KGASE: I joined the ANC and MK in 1987. It was after my brother's funeral. I met my commander, Rodney Toka.
MR MOHLABA: And he is the one who recruited you into the movement?
MR KGASE: Yes, he was the one who recruited me.
MR MOHLABA: Who is your brother and can you tell the Commission how he was killed or how he died?
MR KGASE: My brother is Moses Kgase. He died in a roadblock in Sandton. He was a member of MK.
MR MOHLABA: Do you - can you explain to the Commission what was the role you played at Mveke's residence?
MR KGASE: I went with my commander, Reuben Kgotsa and he told me that there was a policeman at Mamelodi West and his name was Mveke. He went there and he showed me the house where he was staying. I told him that I was going to do the reconnaissance before we could come and attack. I wanted to do so, so that we were safe after the attack.
MR MOHLABA: Yes, proceed and explain what happened until the attack was carried out.
MR KGASE: After I've done my reconnaissance and I've told him that I've already done so, he said we were ready to proceed.
MR MOHLABA: Yes, proceed.
MR KGASE: When we went there on our way he said to me before we could proceed we should meet our commander so that he gives us the weapons or the hand-grenade. He went and saw the commander and afterwards he came and fetched me so that we could proceed.
When we arrived there he told me that I should wait somewhere at a distance so that I make sure that he's being covered or protected. I looked for a cover and I waited there, protecting him. He was the one who had the hand-grenade. We made sure that we were safe after he threw the hand-grenade at Mveke's house.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you armed?
MR KGASE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: With what?
MR KGASE: A hand-grenade.
MR MOHLABA: So the hand-grenade you had in your possession was never used at the attack at Mveke's residence?
MR KGASE: No, it wasn't used.
MR MOHLABA: Were you arrested for having taken part in this attack?
MR KGASE: Yes, I was.
MR MOHLABA: And did you stand trial and what was the outcome thereof?
MR KGASE: No, I wasn't sentenced but I was arrested.
MR MOHLABA: How did you get out of prison, did you escape?
MR KGASE: I escaped.
MR MOHLABA: And after escaping, where did you go to?
MR KGASE: I went to exile.
MR MOHLABA: Where?
MR KGASE: I went to Lusaka.
MR MOHLABA: So are you also applying for amnesty for escaping from lawful custody and leaving the country unlawfully?
MR KGASE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, I notice also like the previous applicant, the copy of which we have in our bundle of the application has not been signed before a Commissioner of Oaths.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chair.
You have lodged an application in a prescribed form for amnesty, is that correct? Is this the form which you have completed, is it a copy thereof?
MR KGASE: Yes.
MR MOHLABA: The signature appearing at the foot of the form, is that your signature?
MR KGASE: Yes.
MR MOHLABA: Do you confirm that the contents of these application forms are the truth and that they are binding on your conscience?
MR KGASE: Yes.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chair, that will conclude the evidence of the applicant.
ADV DE JAGER: Before we continue, you've just confirmed that the contents of this application is the truth, now you're applying in this application for amnesty for murder, who did you murder?
MR KGASE: I didn't murder anyone.
ADV DE JAGER: So that's a mistake, it's not the truth?
MR KGASE: Yes, it's a mistake.
MR MOHLABA: When you were arrested after this attack at Mveke's residence, did you also face a charge of murder or several charges of murder?
MR KGASE: No.
MR MOHLABA: Were you not co-accused of Rodney Toka, Francis Pitsi and the others?
MR KGASE: No.
MR MOHLABA: When you were arrested, where were you kept or tell us the prison from which you escaped, which prison was that?
MR KGASE: Modderbee Prison.
MR MOHLABA: You were not arrested together with Legodi and Kgotsa?
MR KGASE: We were arrested together.
MR MOHLABA: Do you know whether they also escaped from Modderbee Prison?
MR KGASE: Yes, we escaped together.
MR MOHLABA: In completing your application form for amnesty, who was assisting you?
ADV DE JAGER: Were you accused number 12?
MR KGASE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: It would seem here from the papers, page 56, he says that he was charged with murder, attempted murder and malicious damage to property in case number CC349/89, which case is the same as the other applicants' cases, and it's apparent from the indictment that appears at page 66 etc., that there were a number of murder charges there as well. Obviously the basis for the, including all the accused and the charges, they were going to try for common purpose or something like that I'm sure.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chair, that will conclude the evidence of the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Molefe, do you have any questions to ask the applicant?
MR MOLEFE: None, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokone?
MR MOKONE: None, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MOKONE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Monyane?
MS MONYANE: No questions, Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MONYANE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Joubert is not there, Mr Dreyer is not there. I'm sure they wouldn't have questions, they had no interest in this matter. Ms Mtanga?
MS MTANGA: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Jager, do you have any questions?
ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) for what purpose? Why did you carry a hand-grenade on that specific evening?
MR KGASE: The reason was we wanted to protect ourselves and at that time in Mamelodi there were too many soldiers' vehicles and we wanted to be safe and to protect ourselves, to defend ourselves.
ADV DE JAGER: So what would have happened if 10 passed by? What would you do?
MR KGASE: I wasn't going to do anything because they were not going to arrest me.
ADV DE JAGER: Was this only in case of you being threatened with an arrest, then you would use this hand-grenade?
MR KGASE: Yes, that was my only reason, to protect myself from the police.
ADV DE JAGER: So it was for self-protection?
MR KGASE: Yes, it was.
ADV DE JAGER: And you said that you kept a watch on this house, did you see people entering the house or playing in the yard or standing in the yard?
MR KGASE: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: Were there children?
MR KGASE: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: Did they sleep in the house?
MR KGASE: That's where I don't know because in that house there was a garage and outside rooms.
ADV DE JAGER: But didn't you keep a watch that night to see whether the target would come home and whether he'll sleep there?
MR KGASE: I didn't check that.
ADV DE JAGER: Did you check whether he was involved in any police activities or acted against the community?
MR KGASE: He was a policeman.
CHAIRPERSON: Well we've heard at the time of the attack he was retired.
MR KGASE: We didn't know that at the time, we only knew him as a policeman.
ADV DE JAGER: Were you sent to kill him?
MR KGASE: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: Was anything said about his family?
MR KGASE: No, the only person we were targeting was him.
ADV DE JAGER: Now if you throw a hand-grenade into a house you are aware that other people present could be killed?
MR KGASE: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: You've been trained and told that, isn't that so?
MR KGASE: In our training we were never told about that.
ADV DE JAGER: Weren't you trained and told this is a deadly weapon, be careful it could kill the people around when it explodes?
MR KGASE: Yes, we were told.
ADV DE JAGER: So you knew it could other people in the house?
MR KGASE: Yes, I knew.
ADV DE JAGER: But you didn't worry about it?
MR KGASE: I worried about that.
ADV DE JAGER: And what did you do to prevent it?
MR KGASE: That hand-grenade didn't go inside the house.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you think it was thrown purposely not to go into the house for that reason, so other people wouldn't be injured?
MR KGASE: It hit the wall, that's why it didn't go inside the house.
CHAIRPERSON: But if it went inside the house as it was meant to have gone in the house it may have killed innocent children. You see I can't understand how anyone can say that care was taken not to injure other people by hurling a hand-grenade at a house, unless before you throw it you go, you look in the window and you see that the only person in the room in which you're throwing the hand-grenade is the target and there is no-one else. That would be the only circumstance. But just to throw it blindly at a house, how can anyone even begin to think that any steps were taken to prevent injury to other people, it's just irrational to think so, would you agree?
MR KGASE: I wasn't there, I was just protecting him.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes? Mr Sandi, do you have any questions?
ADV SANDI: Yes, Chair.
Mr Kgase, I noticed that in your application form at page 52 of the bundle, in reply to the question where you are asked to state the nature and the particulars of the offences in respect of which you are applying, you make mention of AK47s. Was there any incident in which you had to use an AK47?
MR KGASE: No, I was just trained on how to use an AK47.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are these any questions arising from questions put by Members of the Panel? Mr Mohlaba?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: Yes, just one aspect.
You mention that after you were, after a target was identified your comrade went to collect the weapons from your commander, ...(indistinct), is that correct?
MR KGASE: That's correct.
MR MOHLABA: And other than knowing that the target is Mveke's residence, were you told how the operation is going to be carried out, that is who was going to throw the hand-grenade and so forth?
MR KGASE: That's correct.
MR MOHLABA: What were you told?
MR KGASE: We were told that we were supposed to attack Mr Mveke's house and Reuben was going to be responsible on throwing the hand-grenade there. I was going to be responsible on protecting him so that he could go ahead.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chair, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Kgase, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
