ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: For the record, it is Thursday, 17th of June 1999, we are continuing with the amnesty applications of N.R. Nkwenkwe and 16 others. Mr Obose, who is the next witness?
MR OBOSE: Mr Chairman, it is Mr P.A. Loni, number 2 on the index. The application appears at page 9 to 15, thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Loni, please rise and switch on your microphone by pressing the red button. Can you give your full names for the record?
MR LONI: I am Pumulela Archibol Loni.
PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Obose?
EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: Thank you, Your Worship. Mr Loni, you are attached to the South African Police Services, is that correct?
MR LONI: Yes, that is correct.
MR OBOSE: What rank do you hold and where are you stationed?
MR LONI: I am an Inspector.
MR OBOSE: Where are you stationed?
MR LONI: I am at Stutterheim, Stock Theft Unit.
MR OBOSE: During March 1994, where were you stationed?
MR LONI: I was in Zwelitsha in the Murder and Robbery Unit.
MR OBOSE: What rank did you hold during March 1994?
MR LONI: I was a Warrant Officer.
MR OBOSE: Did you attend the meeting of the 22nd of March 1994 at Bisho College, Police College?
MR LONI: Yes, I attended the meeting.
MR OBOSE: Is it correct that that meeting was called by the then Commissioner of Police, Gen Nqoya?
MR LONI: I heard that there was a meeting, but I never attended a meeting that was held in the morning, the one that was called by Gen Nqoya, I only came late, at about four in the afternoon.
MR OBOSE: What did you find happening at the meeting when you got there?
MR LONI: The hall was full, there was no space for me to get in and the people were singing the freedom songs.
MR OBOSE: Could you manage to get inside the hall?
MR LONI: No, I did not, I could not get inside the hall because the hall was so full.
MR OBOSE: Did you participate in the singing or not?
MR LONI: Yes, I participated outside, singing.
MR OBOSE: And the sloganeering that was going on?
MR LONI: Yes.
MR OBOSE: Were there any slogans regarding Brigadier Gqozo that were shouted there?
MR LONI: Yes, there were some.
MR OBOSE: What slogans?
MR LONI: They were saying "down with Gqozo", or "away with Gqozo."
MR OBOSE: Did you in any other way participate in this meeting, do something, be sent to do something, etc?
MR LONI: Yes.
MR OBOSE: What did you do?
MR LONI: An instruction was issued to go and fetch the senior Policemen to bring them to the hall. I also participated in fetching some of them.
MR OBOSE: Who gave this instruction, that is Officers being collected?
MR LONI: What I heard from the loudspeaker, I heard Inspector Mfene's voice through the loudspeaker.
MR OBOSE: Who did you fetch?
MR LONI: I went to fetch Gen Nqoya.
MR OBOSE: Who else?
MR LONI: And Captain Hlela.
MR OBOSE: The one who became the Commissioner at some stage or not?
MR LONI: No, not the one, that is his younger brother.
MR OBOSE: Who else did you fetch?
MR LONI: Those are the only people, and Gen Nqoya's wife.
MR OBOSE: Just tell us a little bit more about your fetching Gen Nqoya.
MR LONI: When they were announcing, they said if we do not find the person there in his house, we should take his wife or child so that we can cause panic to that particular person, and then that particular person would end up coming to the hall. When we got to Gen Nqoya's house, he was not there and the wife told us that she knew nothing about his whereabouts and then we took the wife and the child, we took them to the College.
MR OBOSE: Why was Gen Nqoya needed in the meeting, what you can recall?
MR LONI: He was the main person in the Police Force in Ciskei and he was very close to Gqozo.
MR OBOSE: What was he to do in the meeting?
MR LONI: What was more important there, as I heard, they wanted all the Police to be there, including Gen Nqoya so that Gqozo should feel isolated and he should step down, that is what we wanted. We wanted him to be able to call the other Police, because he was the one who had a final say when it comes to Police.
MR OBOSE: Did you, yourself, agree with this idea that Gqozo step down?
MR LONI: Yes, I was for that that Gqozo should step down.
MR OBOSE: Did Gen Nqoya eventually get to the hall where the meeting was held?
MR LONI: Yes, he came to the hall.
MR OBOSE: Did you bring him to the hall?
MR LONI: Yes, we brought him to the hall.
MR OBOSE: Where did you find him?
MR LONI: We found him in the ministerial complex, he was kept there by soldiers and Police. We took him to the hall.
MR OBOSE: With whom were you?
MR LONI: The people whose names I can remember were Inspector Mzigeliso, Inspector Kolele. The people who were there were the members of the Murder and Robbery Unit, those are the people that I can still remember.
MR OBOSE: Where exactly in the ministerial complex did you find him?
MR LONI: He was kept in the guard post, the one next to the gate.
MR OBOSE: Did the soldiers tell you why he was there, I mean at the guard post, not in his house or in one of the ministerial houses there?
MR LONI: No, the soldiers told us that he was coming from the State house where Brigadier Gqozo was, but I don't know how did he get to the guard post.
MR OBOSE: Did it seem to you that the soldiers knew that the Police were looking for Gen Nqoya or not?
MR LONI: Yes, that is correct.
MR OBOSE: When you took him from the guard post, did you tell him why you wanted him at the meeting?
MR LONI: Yes, he was told that all the Police were in the hall and it was said that he is the one who called the Police and he left saying he would come back and he never came back.
MR OBOSE: Who told him this? Who told him that, who spoke to him at the guard post? Was it yourself or somebody else within your group?
MR LONI: It was not myself, but I cannot remember who exactly told him, because everyone at that time was talking, we were all talking all at once. I cannot remember exactly who uttered those words, but something like that was mentioned that he was the one who called the people to the hall and then he just disappeared and the people were waiting for him there.
MR OBOSE: Did he resist?
MR LONI: No, he never resisted.
MR OBOSE: Okay. Roughly what time was this when you found him at the guard post?
MR LONI: It was late in the evening, I think it was about ten o'clock, approximately ten, but I think it was very late.
MR OBOSE: Okay, in the hall, was he questioned or what happened? Did he just get seated and everybody ignored him?
MR LONI: In the hall, he got inside with his bodyguards, those who were with him and the other Police, but I did not get into the hall, but I know that he got into the hall.
MR OBOSE: Did you find him with his bodyguards at the guard post?
MR LONI: Yes, he was together with his bodyguards and soldiers and some Policemen.
MR OBOSE: Were his bodyguards armed?
MR LONI: I won't know, but at least each and every Policeman has got at least one gun or firearm.
MR OBOSE: Okay. Was he assaulted in any way?
MR LONI: During my presence, he was never assaulted.
MR OBOSE: Did you participate in any other way in the meeting, except for Gen Nqoya's fetching?
MR LONI: No.
MR OBOSE: This Captain Hlela, you also fetched him that particular evening?
MR LONI: Yes, we met with him in the streets of Zwelitsha, he was walking up and down. We told him that all the senior Policemen were in the hall, we took him to the hall.
MR OBOSE: These two Officers that you brought to the hall, did they remain in the hall until the early hours of the next morning, the next day?
MR LONI: Yes, that is correct, they remained in the hall until the next morning.
MR OBOSE: Thank you, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Obose. Mr Nompozolo any questions?
MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Collett, any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT: Thank you, yes. What was the purpose for wanting the senior Officers to go to the hall?
MR LONI: We wanted Gqozo to feel isolated because those were the people who he regarded as his pillars.
MS COLLETT: But isn't it true that Nqoya was suspected as being with Gqozo at that time?
MR LONI: I do not understand the question.
MS COLLETT: At the time that you people were at the hall, isn't it true that you believed that Nqoya was with Brigadier Gqozo or had been with Brigadier Gqozo?
MR LONI: We were not aware of his whereabouts, that is why we had to go to look for him at his house and we got that information from the soldiers, they told us where he was.
MS COLLETT: How would Gqozo feel isolated if people like the High Commanding Officers were held against their will?
MR LONI: Those people were very close to him and he would use those people whenever he wanted to issue some instructions, he would use those people.
MS COLLETT: So basically the reason that you wanted the senior Officers, was so that no instructions could be issued against you?
INTERPRETER: Will you please repeat the question, Ma'am?
MS COLLETT: The reason you wanted the senior Officers was so that no instructions could be issued against you?
MR LONI: We wanted Gqozo to be left alone where he was, and we wanted him to get the message that he should step down.
MS COLLETT: If that was the case, why weren't key people in the Army taken hostage?
MR LONI: We wanted Gqozo to be all alone and we wanted him to be all alone and it is difficult for any human being to be left all alone, to be isolated.
MS COLLETT: You are not answering my question. My question is if you wanted Gqozo to be alone, why didn't you take key people in the military, take them hostage as well?
MR LONI: We had heard that even the soldiers on the side, were united, they were together.
MS COLLETT: Did you attempt to take Gqozo's bodyguards?
MR LONI: No, we never attempted to do that.
MS COLLETT: What time did you take Colonel Nqoya's wife and child?
MR LONI: I think it was about six o'clock.
MS COLLETT: Did they go voluntarily?
MR LONI: No, they did not go there voluntarily.
MS COLLETT: Were they distressed?
INTERPRETER: Will you please repeat the question, Ma'am?
MS COLLETT: Were they distressed?
MR LONI: They looked that way.
MS COLLETT: When they got to the College hall, what happened to them?
MR LONI: When they got in the hall, we handed them over to the Police who were next to the door, to take them in.
MS COLLETT: How long after taking the wife and child, was it that Nqoya was taken to the hall?
MR LONI: Nqoya was found late in the night, I think it was hours after they were brought into the hall, the wife and the child that is.
MS COLLETT: In other words this wife and child were there at the hall for a long period of time without Colonel Nqoya, sorry Gen Nqoya?
MR LONI: Yes, that is correct.
MS COLLETT: How did it come about that they went home?
MR LONI: When Gen Nqoya came, an instruction was issued to take them home.
MS COLLETT: Were you part of that taking them home?
MR LONI: I cannot remember, but I was not present when they were being taken home, but I remember when it was said that they should be taken home.
MS COLLETT: If what you say is correct, and Nqoya was found at the guard house by Gqozo's premises, were you not of the opinion that he was being protected by Gqozo at that stage?
MR LONI: I did not take it that way because if he was protecting, there would be no need for the soldiers to phone the Police and tell the Police that he was there. Therefore the soldiers knew that he was wanted by the Police, that is why immediately when they saw him, they phoned the Police to come and fetch him there.
MS COLLETT: Did the Police still want Nqoya in connection with the things that they wanted him for that morning?
MR LONI: I don't think they were looking for him for what was happening the morning, I think they wanted him concerning this Gqozo issue because what was more important in that meeting, the people were singing freedom songs and they wanted to do away with Gqozo.
MS COLLETT: Isn't it correct that about eight o'clock that evening, Gqozo had actually stepped down?
MR LONI: I do not remember that. I did not get it that way.
MS COLLETT: What do you mean by saying you did not get it that way?
MR LONI: I did not hear people saying that at about eight o'clock Gqozo had stepped down.
MS COLLETT: Do you recall the Interim Administration in the form of Mr Goosen, Adv Jurgens and Rev Finca coming to the hall that evening?
MR LONI: I never saw them.
MS COLLETT: You see, I want to put it to you that Brigadier Gqozo stepped down that evening at approximately eight o'clock.
MR LONI: I don't know that.
MS COLLETT: I want to put it to you that the Interim Administration visited the Police College thereafter, having taken over the reigns of Gqozo and asked you people to disperse.
MR LONI: Maybe I couldn't identify them because I did not know them and there were a lot of people coming in, coming out, I don't even know the other people who were there.
MS COLLETT: I want to put it to you further that the reason that you wanted Nqoya, could have had nothing to do with the stepping down of Gqozo because he had already stepped down.
MR LONI: The fact that Gqozo did step down, I got those news in the morning after we had found Gen Nqoya, that is when I got the news.
MS COLLETT: I want to put it to you further that when Nqoya was brought to the Police College, he also informed you that Gqozo had stepped down earlier that evening.
MR LONI: I don't know how that happened because we were still looking for him at that time, there were no news about Gqozo stepping down at that moment.
MS COLLETT: According to Nkwenkwe, he had already told the Police at that stage that Gqozo had stepped down.
MR LONI: I did not hear them saying that.
MS COLLETT: You see, I want to put it to you that the reason you wanted Nqoya had nothing whatsoever to do with the stepping down of Gqozo, it had to do with the fact that you people were conducting a kangaroo court there.
MR LONI: When I heard that, I was told that they were looking for all the Officers, all the Policemen to gather at the hall. Officers, non-commissioned Officers, everyone was wanted in the hall and there were senior Officers like Nqoya, because those were the people who were very close to him, Gqozo that is, and they were also told that they should go to the hall.
MS COLLETT: I also want to put it to you that you didn't find Nqoya at the guard house, you found him and his bodyguards en route to the Police College.
MR LONI: No, we found him in the guard post, the one that leads to the ministerial complex.
MS COLLETT: Because my instructions are that him and his bodyguards inter alia Luwana were en route to the Police College because they found out that the wife and child were there at the Police College?
MR LONI: No, they did not tell you the truth, because I was present when we got in there. When we arrived in that guard post, they were sitting inside with soldiers and Police and his bodyguards, three of his bodyguards.
MS COLLETT: Did you disarm the bodyguards?
MR LONI: Yes, that is correct. I remember because we had to take their firearms.
MS COLLETT: Why?
MR LONI: We did not want anyone to be aggressive on that particular day.
MS COLLETT: You did not regard yourselves as being aggressive, forcing people to go where they didn't want to be?
MR LONI: We just wanted everyone to get a message, to know where we were, so that there should be no bloodshed, everything should go according to a plan.
MS COLLETT: Is it not correct that statements were released to the media by the Police at the hall on that evening?
INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat the question, Ma'am?
MS COLLETT: Is it not correct that statements were released by the Police, the role players at the hall that evening, to the media?
MR LONI: I was not inside the hall, so I don't know what was happening inside.
MS COLLETT: You see, I want to put it to you that there were such statements released to the media and that if any Policeman who didn't know about the meeting, wanted to know about it or wanted to go there, they could have gone there voluntarily and associated themselves with you people.
MR LONI: I don't know anything about these statements.
MS COLLETT: If the Commission would bear with me. Is it correct that you didn't know about the plan for Gqozo to stand down?
MR LONI: I heard that when I arrived at the College.
MS COLLETT: But prior to that you had no knowledge about that?
MR LONI: No, I didn't have any knowledge about that before I arrived at the College.
MS COLLETT: Okay. Who gave you the information when you got to the College?
MR LONI: It was Inspector Mfene and Peteni, Inspector Peteni.
MS COLLETT: What did they say to you?
MR LONI: They said that that meeting was concerned or it was, there was a meeting because they wanted Gqozo to be removed so that we can have free elections in the Ciskei.
MS COLLETT: Were you concerned about your pension payout at all?
MR LONI: No, I wasn't concerned about the pensions.
MS COLLETT: Were you concerned about your future deployment in the South African Police Force?
MR LONI: I am still even concerned today about my future at the Police Force.
MS COLLETT: Because you see I put it to you that those were the reasons that Nqoya was allegedly sent to Gqozo to go and get answers to earlier that morning.
MR LONI: I don't know about that, that is news to me. What I know is that we wanted Gqozo to resign from his position.
MS COLLETT: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLLETT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Collett. Mr Mapoma, any questions?
MR MAPOMA: No questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Does the Panel have any questions?
ADV BOSMAN: No questions, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination?
MR OBOSE: None, thank you Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loni, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
