ON RESUMPTION
MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman. I am now calling no.2724/96, that of John Masithulela.
May I also indicate inasfar as this applicant is concerned just finalising the affidavits in respect of all of them so we will be able to submit some of them.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean you are going to submit some of them if they are all being finalised? Wouldn't you submit all of them?
MR NDOU: Yes. They will all be ready.
CHAIRPERSON: Who is this applicant?
MR NDOU: Masithulela, John. Page 52.
JOHN MASITHULELA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Masithulela I see that in your application that you brought before the Committee is that you indicate that you are here to seek amnesty in respect of offences for which you were convicted during November 1992, it being public violence, murder and arson. Were you convicted of all these three offences?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes.
MR NDOU: And for that you were in prison for a period of 12 years, is that correct?
MR MASITHULELA: That is correct.
MR NDOU: Now we have evidence here, and I want you to explain to the Committee ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Wait before you carry on, public violence in respect of what?
MR MASITHULELA: It's in connection with being involved in a group which were making violence at Hamavonga.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja on whose house or on who or what?
MR MASITHULELA: It is in the house of Mr Edward Mahvunga and Petrus Mahvunga.
CHAIRPERSON: And murder? Mr Ndou do you know in respect of what crimes he's making application?
MR NDOU: Yes I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Please tell us.
MR NDOU: Now you also indicate that you ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No you tell us what you got instructions ...(intervention)
MR NDOU: It is in the murder of her daughter, ...(indistinct) government ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: And arson?
MR NDOU: It's also in respect of the burning ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: And the public violence?
MR NDOU: I think the public violence was generalised in a sense it pertained to the violence that took as an alternative charge to the charge of arson that took place at Petrus' house.
CHAIRPERSON: Petrus.
MR VAN RENSBURG: With respect Mr Chairman I don't think that is so. I think the accused was convicted of arson as an alternative count to count 3 which actually happened on the 28th of February at the house of the deceased. That is how I understand it.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you people are confusing me.
MR NDOU: Are you talking about the arson or the public violence?
ADV DE JAGER: He was accused no.4. He was sentenced for public violence - four years imprisonment. That's on page 213. Counts three and seven taken together to 12 years imprisonment. Three was the arson and seven was the murder of Edward. And three was the burning of the house. So it was public violence, according to the judgment on page 213.
CHAIRPERSON: He was found guilty of public violence in the alternative on count 2, which was the arson charge in respect of the deceased's house on the 28th of February. He was also convicted of murder of the deceased and arson in respect of the deceased's house that occurred on the 6th.
MR NDOU: Now Mr Masithulela I want you to explain to the Committee as to how it came about that this whole incident took place, slowly and very clearly.
MR MASITHULELA: This violence started in 1990. It was during the time when the Venda government was not ruling properly. Myself as a youth I found it fit that I participated in overthrowing the power of the past government so that it can be totally abolished.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay we accept that now. You know you are here before us seeking amnesty in respect of the death and arson on the deceased. The death of the deceased and arson on his house and also public violence in respect of a gathering outside his brother's house. Correct?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes it's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Now what did you do in respect of Petrus' house there?
MR MASITHULELA: In connection with Petrus' house I burnt - let me say I started by attempting to burn the house of Mr Petrus Mahvunga and then I went and burnt the house of Petrus Mahvunga and it burnt, that one.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you together with people or?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I was together with other youth.
CHAIRPERSON: So did the house burn?
MR MASITHULELA: Initially the fire burnt and it went down and it wasn't burnt - the first time. And for the second time we burnt it.
CHAIRPERSON: On the same day?
MR MASITHULELA: Now it was not on the same day.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. And you were generally in a group whose actions were regarded as violent at that time, when you tried to burn?
MR MASITHULELA: The government of that day took us as if we were doing violence.
CHAIRPERSON: I am not talking about the government, I am asking what you did.
MR MASITHULELA: Could you please repeat your question.
CHAIRPERSON: You tried to burn Petrus' house on a particular day. You failed. When you did so you were in a group of people whose actions were violent, or intended to be violent.
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I can agree.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Now then you left his place, Petrus?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes we left that place.
CHAIRPERSON: And that occurred before the deceased died?
MR MASITHULELA: Could you repeat your question.
CHAIRPERSON: You know the deceased, Edward, the attack on Petrus' house occurred before Edward died.
MR MASITHULELA: Before the killing of Edward we first burnt the house.
CHAIRPERSON: Of Petrus?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes of Petrus.
CHAIRPERSON: But when you tried to burn Petrus' house it happened before the day Edward died, am I correct?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes he was not yet killed.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Now let's get on to the attack on Edward's house. What did you do there?
MR MASITHULELA: In Petrus Mahvunga's house I found myself in a group of youths who went there to burn ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Not Petrus, Edward.
MR MASITHULELA: Edward, okay, I didn't get you clear then. In the house of Edward Mahvunga I was in a group of youths who went to Edward Mahvunga to evict him to leave Mahvunga Village. As it has been already explained that he was given a "trek pass" and he was refusing to leave the village.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe that there was a "trek pass" for him?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I agree but being told it was there, by the people who told me.
CHAIRPERSON: Who told you?
MR MASITHULELA: I was told by the youth, I was with them in the meeting.
CHAIRPERSON: Who?
MR MASITHULELA: I can't remember the name because in the meeting people were just speaking collectively or at the same time.
CHAIRPERSON: Whose meeting or what kind of meeting was it?
MR MASITHULELA: It was the youth meeting in connection with arranging the formation of the youth congress.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Then what happened?
MR MASITHULELA: The youth on arriving at Edward Mahvunga's house they tried to talk to him so that he can leave Mahvunga Village. The negotiations with Edward Mahvunga and the youth was such that they were not agreeing with each other because he was refusing to leave the country because he's having the house and the kids.
It happened that while they were exchanging different words where he was refusing to go they started a fight of throwing stones. People were throwing stones to the deceased, at the deceased and in the deceased's house to get that to the kids who were in the yard. The deceased was also throwing stones and the kids were doing likewise towards us.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr van Rensburg as far as what happened at the house, the stone throwing, the setting alight, the killing, the leaving of the women, are we having any disputes about that or can we accept what in broad happened there - there was a stone throwing and the deceased was killed?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes I think that can be accepted. I think there's only about three differences and that's minor differences. One is already on record I think, is if the family, the rest of the family were allowed to leave or escape. And the other one was this fight, was it actually started by the deceased or started by the mob. And I almost can't think of a third one. So regarding the broad events, ja, there is no ...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: Well I think it's common they've been killed.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: What's not common cause is the reason for the killing.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: Isn't that the real dispute in the whole thing?
MR VAN RENSBURG: That is true.
ADV DE JAGER: And you've heard the evidence of the other people about the killing. In broad would he agree with that?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I agree.
ADV DE JAGER: Is there anything you want to add to what they've already told us about the facts of the killing?
MR MASITHULELA: I don't have something which I want to add but I can just say or explain what I did on the very same day.
CHAIRPERSON: You don't want to add anything to what they say, not yet? Can you think of anything you want to add?
MR MASITHULELA: Ja, there is something new which I can add, but it is something which I heard about it. What I want to add is when the previous speaker, Nemakhavani, saying that he doesn't know the executive members of Myco, that is Mahvunga Youth Congress, I was told about them and they were known in the whole nation who they were.
CHAIRPERSON: He didn't, but that's what you want to add, that you knew the identities of those people?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I know them.
CHAIRPERSON: Right. Now tell us what you did there at Edward's house.
MR MASITHULELA: The executive members - myself on the killing of the deceased I got into the house on the ...(indistinct) side using - getting into the yard of the deceased. I reached the garage of the car. I saw a car which was burning on the other side of it. I took a tyre which was close by. I made it catch fire and then go and burn the car which was already burning.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes, that's all.
CHAIRPERSON: You saw the stone throwing?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I saw them.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you with it, do you associate with it?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I associate myself with that.
CHAIRPERSON: You knew that the deceased was going to die?
MR MASITHULELA: Could you please repeat your question.
CHAIRPERSON: You were aware that the deceased was going to die?
MR MASITHULELA: No I wasn't aware.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see them burning?
MR MASITHULELA: Of the house?
CHAIRPERSON: Of the deceased.
MR MASITHULELA: No I didn't see him burning.
CHAIRPERSON: But you knew that there was going to be an attack on him?
MR MASITHULELA: No I was not aware that he is going to be attacked. I only know that they were going to talk with the deceased so that the deceased could leave the Mahvunga Village.
CHAIRPERSON: You saw the stone throwing?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I saw them.
CHAIRPERSON: So who were the stones being directed at?
MR MASITHULELA: The stones were, most of them were directed to the deceased.
CHAIRPERSON: By a lot of people, not so?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes, by many people.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you throw stones?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I did.
CHAIRPERSON: And you also directed it at the deceased?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I directed them.
CHAIRPERSON: At that time you must have realised that he would die as a result of being thrown by the - that he would die as a result of the stone throwing, not so?
MR MASITHULELA: Ja it's quite clear that if one is being stoned at by stones could possibly die.
CHAIRPERSON: You associated yourself because you also threw stones at him?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And then the house was also burning?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes that's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how it got burnt, how it started burning?
MR MASITHULELA: I cannot explain that clearly because where I was, the direction I was in there was fire which was burning in the car, but later I saw heavy smoke of fire on the other side of the house. I don't know how the fire started.
CHAIRPERSON: When you saw that smoke coming from the house did you associate yourself with that burning?
MR MASITHULELA: No I don't associate myself.
CHAIRPERSON: But did you agree with the others who had started that fire in that house?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I agreed that others have started that fire, because if I was with them then I associated myself with them.
CHAIRPERSON: That's what I am getting at. Is that correct?
MR MASITHULELA: Could you please repeat your question.
ADV DE JAGER: You in fact helped burning the car and you would have helped burning the house if you had the opportunity. You helped burning the car, you assisted in burning the car, and you would have helped them burning the house if you had the opportunity, is that right?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I burnt the car and assisted in the burning of the house simply because I was a member of people who were burning. Then I was supporting what they were doing.
CHAIRPERSON: Why was Petrus and Edward targeted in this way?
MR MASITHULELA: As far as I am concerned ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Let's deal with Petrus first - okay, nevermind deal with it as you want.
MR MASITHULELA: As I was growing there at Mahvunga Village I heard rumours that Petrus Mahvunga is also a witch. On the part of the deceased as I was growing I heard people saying that the deceased is also participating in witchcraft.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe that?
MR MASITHULELA: That they are witches?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, those rumours, you believed that?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I believed that those people are witches.
CHAIRPERSON: Good. Now you told us in the beginning of your testimony that you wanted a political change in Venda. Venda must go back to Pretoria. Did I understand you correctly?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes it's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Now how did what you did to Petrus and to Edward, how was that connected with your political wish that Venda should be reincorporated with South Africa?
MR MASITHULELA: The link is in this way. The leaders of those days of the previous government of the independence of Venda they were people who were leading this country in unacceptable way because there was violences here, there were no more schools; workers were no longer going to work. As I looked I found that that person, because he's participating in witchcraft I say that because the leaders of the past were linked with the medical doctors and witches to find medicine so that they could have power or protect their powers by then.
CHAIRPERSON: You say medical doctors, what medical doctors?
MR MASITHULELA: Traditional doctors or healers.
CHAIRPERSON: Now we've had evidence which linked traditional healers with traditional murders etc, is that what you are referring to?
MR MASITHULELA: Could you please repeat your question.
CHAIRPERSON: You referred to certain people as traditional healers. Earlier in this hearing we've heard that traditional healers were directly responsible for ritual murders.
MR MASITHULELA: Yes that's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Are the traditional healers the same people that you are referring to that was described as having been the cause of ritual murders? That's what I am trying to - are you talking about the same people?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes but I think they are the people who are causing the root of this matter, because in various countries when they find the people who are committing ritual murders they first go to the traditional doctors to find out who was the witch.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that your belief was that the people leading this country in such a bad way were linked to the witches and traditional healers in order to sustain their power in the country? Did I understand you correctly?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I said it like that.
CHAIRPERSON: Good. Carry on.
MR NDOU: Thank you, I am indebted to you Chairperson.
Mr Masithulela you see the victims are before the Committee here, how do you feel now?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes for now at this point of democracy I find it very hurting to see the youth who are sitting in front of me without parents, because it was caused by the previous government. If it was not because of the previous government I think by now their parents will be still alive. As such I feel that I must humble myself before the children of the deceased and tell them that what happened then it happened. So for now I have to cry or sympathise with them.
CHAIRPERSON: You say it wasn't personal, it was just a political circumstance that had to occur?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes it's true.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you happy to go to them privately perhaps and make your peace with them?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I will be very happy.
CHAIRPERSON: ... attitude would be but I would ask the respective representatives to investigate that possibility.
MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU
ADV SIGODI: What was Edward Mahvunga's position in the community?
MR MASITHULELA: I know that he was the younger brother to the headmen, Adam Roksane Mahvunga.
MS PATEL: ...said to have used witchcraft to protect his power, what power - Edward Mahvunga, in the community.
MR MASITHULELA: It's ....
CHAIRPERSON: Answer?
MR MASITHULELA: I am asking that you repeat your question.
CHAIRPERSON: How was Edward's alleged ability as a witch, how did that help those who were in authority?
MR MASITHULELA: The power of Mr Edward or witch powers? Whose power?
CHAIRPERSON: You said that you believed that Edward was a witch.
MR MASITHULELA: Yes it's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Whose powers were used and helped to sustain the power of the authorities, for example his brother. That's how I understood your evidence.
MR MASITHULELA: Yes it's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Our colleague here has asked you, how did Edward use his power to assist maybe his brother, let's say for example?
MR MASITHULELA: I don't have the powers which I can tell this house that was having this powers of assisting his brother.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain it?
MR MASITHULELA: Maybe I cannot understand the powers which people are wanting to know about.
CHAIRPERSON: Because it is witchcraft?
MR MASITHULELA: No I am asking that you ask your question clearly, I don't hear you well.
CHAIRPERSON: ... that witches have - I am not asking you to give me a scientific explanation of those kind of powers. Are you able to describe to us how Edward, if he was in fact a witch or wizard, and had these powers, strange powers, how would he use it to assist someone in authority? Do you know, if you do know can you tell us?
MR MASITHULELA: In connection with Mr Edward I don't know, but in general because of the violence which was happening in Venda witches were assisting in helping the government of the past. With Mr Edward I cannot explain that because I don't know that he was having witch powers which can assist maybe the headman.
CHAIRPERSON: ... in general. How would these witches assist the government of the day then to retain what they had, to entrench apartheid maybe?
MR MASITHULELA: Witches assisted the previous government in this way. They went to extent where they were used. Let me put it this way, the government was comprised by chiefs or headmen or the government of the past was composed of headmen, chiefs, indunas and the like.
CHAIRPERSON: You say chiefs, headmen, indunas and?
MR MASITHULELA: Those are the people.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you say the government was comprised of these kind of people?
MR MASITHULELA: Ja, and others, ordinary people.
CHAIRPERSON: So how would a witch assist these people with their strange powers?
MR MASITHULELA: The chiefs used to consult people at the grassroots level and consult the traditional doctors so that they could assist them by mutis or medicine through which they can prevent or protect the power of their government and these witches were used to destroy the youth who were having politics which were with them by then. Some of the youths were made to be zombis. Some were being killed. Some were being made to become mad. Something like that, and so on.
ADV SIGODI: I just want to get some clarity on the position of Edward Mahvunga. Is it your case that Edward was evicted because he himself was a witch, was practising witchcraft? Or is it your case that Edward was evicted because he was making use of muti to sustain his position in the society?
MR MASITHULELA: What I can say, what I know is that the deceased was killed because he was being suspected in witchcraft, and because I know that witches co-operated with the rulers of the time I realised that it is fit for them to be killed, because they are assisting the people who are ruling at the time so that they can continue with the ruling while oppressing us, the community.
ADV SIGODI: ....in your area at the time was Adam Mahvunga.
CHAIRPERSON: He was the father.
MR MASITHULELA: Yes it's true.
ADV SIGODI: So was there suspicion that Edward was perhaps assisting Adam to sustain or to protect his power in the area?
MR MASITHULELA: I cannot say it's like that because Adam Mahvunga I think by the way he reacted when he wrote a "trek pass" he wrote it due to pressure. I think he was not co-operating with the headman.
ADV SIGODI: Another point which I want to clarify, if you then wanted to have freedom or to have some political change why didn't you get rid of the traditional leaders themselves?
MR MASITHULELA: Well I personally in my view will say not only were witches killed but traditional leaders were killed too.
CHAIRPERSON: Your explanations in respect of Edward and why he was attacked, would that apply to Petrus also?
MR MASITHULELA: Could you just repeat again.
CHAIRPERSON: ....know why Edward was attacked, on what political basis? Would the same apply to Petrus?
MR MASITHULELA: Well it's the same because he too was suspected of the same act because it appeared that they were co-operating with the government.
ADV DE JAGER: One thing I want to clear up. The chief Adam was on the Reef, he was in Johannesburg or somewhere, working there, is that right?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes, true.
ADV DE JAGER: Is that right, it's true, he was working in Johannesburg?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes it is true.
ADV DE JAGER: As I understand it that while he was away Edward sort-of assumed power and pretended to be a chief, is that right or not?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes - well in my view it was perceived that way.
CHAIRPERSON: In your view it was perceived that way you say?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: So was he loyal to the chief or did he undermine the chief?
MR MASITHULELA: Well I would say the late who was doing whatever people were doing but he will also disagree with other issues. For example as the previous witness has said, according to the traditional set-up, if the chief had said each house had to contribute one rand for a particular event he will have contributed or he won't contribute.
ADV DE JAGER: So if he was a witch this witch didn't support the traditional leader. He didn't listen to him, he didn't support him.
MR MASITHULELA: Well I won't say he wouldn't support. I don't know whether there was any other underground movement or activities. It could have been true that he was co-operating with the government from above downwards as the whole country in Venda was a little ungovernable or mixed up.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. I will proceed with the cross-examination.
Mr Masithulela you testified that as far as your knowledge goes there was a "trek pass" ...(intervention)
MR MASITHULELA: Sorry are you speaking above the mike, I can't hear clearly.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Pardon, I will repeat the question. You testified that as far as your knowledge goes there was a "trek pass" issued for the deceased. What I want to know is was that also the situation for Petrus, his brother?
MR MASITHULELA: Mr Petrus Mahvunga wasn't issued with a "trek pass".
MR VAN RENSBURG: Just repeat that, was not? I didn't hear, just repeat your answer please.
CHAIRPERSON: As far as he knows ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: As far as he is concerned he was not issued with a "trek pass".
MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now if Petrus was not issued with a "trek pass" why did you participate in trying to burn down his house?
MR MASITHULELA: Well I was involved in the arson case based on the fact that he was suspected of the act.
MR VAN RENSBURG: The act?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes the act of witchcraft.
MR VAN RENSBURG: I was under the impression from the evidence led by the previous witnesses that they tried everything in their power, they went through all the channels, got the police, got the "trek passer" to persuade the deceased ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: Excuse me I do have a technical problem.
PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONE
MR MASITHULELA: Yes it's true.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Interpreter are you okay now?
INTERPRETER: It's not me with the technical problem, I seem to be okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay whatever is the technical problem sorted out?
INTERPRETER: It seems so yes, thank you.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. From the previous witnesses I got the impression that they went a long way, and they were very patient to execute all possible measures to persuade the deceased to leave the area. They got a "trek pass" for him; they went to the police, they went to the chief...(tape ends)
MR MASITHULELA: It was not the same as with Mr Petrus.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Then you've got to explain to me what was the difference between these two cases? Why would the one be expected as a witch and all the procedures according to your other colleagues were followed, but in his instance it was not followed, what was the difference?
MR MASITHULELA: The difference was on the fact that Petrus Mahvunga had his house burnt down and he was under pressure and he left Mahvunga Village. The deceased could not leave automatically or voluntarily.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes I'm talking up to the situation where before his house was burnt, because we accept that when his house was burnt he fled. But before that, why was there a difference. Why was his position handled differently? I'm referring to Petrus.
MR MASITHULELA: The difference was that Petrus Mahvunga was not really in dispute with the political activities in Mahvunga Village.
With regard to the deceased he was really disputing that he didn't like that to happen.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Now if Petrus was not disputing that why did you want to evict him?
MR MASITHULELA: Well when I say he disputed I'm saying he never obstructed us in any way.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes we've heard you saying that. The question is why did you still evict him or want to evict him?
MR MASITHULELA: Well Petrus, well it was necessary for him to be evicted because he was suspected of witchcraft.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only reason?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes, with regard to Petrus Mahvunga.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you at the time have evidence that Petrus, specifically, used his powers as a witch to support the system?
MR MASITHULELA: Well I personally don't have evidence, but what I know is that with regard to the then situation when the Venda government was still in control of the - everybody was saying the traditional healers and witches were in co-operation so that the government should not really be targeted or ended.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes but we are talking about Petrus now. You confirmed that you had no such specific information regarding Petrus.
CHAIRPERSON: What, what specific information?
MR VAN RENSBURG: That he specifically used his powers to uphold the system.
CHAIRPERSON: I think he's already testified that in both cases he did not have any specific knowledge but believed that witches were doing that, and that's as far as he could link both deceased and Petrus to the government, sustaining the government's status quo.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes perhaps I may have missed that point regarding Petrus. Thank you Mr Chairman. I will continue.
You say that you have information for us about this Mavangwe Youth Congress. Can you for instance tell us who the chairman was?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I can.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Please do.
MR MASITHULELA: The chairperson was Mr Muladi Ntsundeni. The other person I heard of as being treasurer was Nthangeni Calvin Phungo.
MR VAN RENSBURG: I see. And this chairman, let's talk about the chairman first, Muladi Ntsundeni. Was he present on the 6th of April when the deceased was murdered?
MR MASITHULELA: Well I will ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: That can be a dangerous question, because he may implicate that person.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes I do understand that.
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to know what the purpose of your question is.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Well the purpose of my question Mr Chairman also relates of course to the question of full disclosure. I believe that it is obviously one of the functions of this hearing that persons who did not make application for amnesty should be identified through this process.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, that's not one of our jobs. If it so happens so be it, but we are not here to make that enquiry.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Well in that instance I will not press the situation further. If the Chairman will just allow me to get an answer to this question, if he was present. I think it is necessary to know. I think the witness already testified that he was present. Can I just confirm that?
Can you just say if he was present or not?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I was present.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Not you, the leader that you have referred to, the Chairman, was he present on the 6th of April?
MR MASITHULELA: I can't tell whether he was there or not because there were a lot of people. One could not really identify particular people.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you. I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Chairperson. Perhaps just to clear my confusion as to the evidence you've led about Petrus, my understanding is that this applicant was convicted of the public violence case in respect of Edward Mahvunga, not in respect of Petrus Mahvunga and that in fact is an incident that took place on the 28th of February as well.
Perhaps before I pose any questions to the applicant Mr Ndou can clear up ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: Sorry I again have that particular problem. Will the technicians come to my assistance please. Carry on Ma'am.
MS PATEL: If you refer to page 190 of the judgement ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: You are quite right.
MS PATEL: He says Count 2, the alternative to count 2.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think we've all overlooked it and I want Mr Ndou to pay particular attention. He was convicted and I thought everybody who appears for all the applicants would have known this. He was convicted of count 2 in the alternative, being public violence. Count 2 was a count in respect of an unlawful attack on the property of the deceased on the 28th of February.
He's also convicted on count 3 which was an attack on the same house on the 6th of April.
And he was also convicted on count 7 during this attack at that house on the 6th of April the deceased was killed. So Petrus doesn't feature in this application.
Come on Mr Ndou, you should be aware of this. Proceed Ms Patel.
MS PATEL: Okay, thank you. Given that oversight then Sir, could you just briefly explain to us what your role was at Mr Mahvunga's house on the 28th of February, sorry, Edward yes, the deceased, on the 28th of February. Not on the 6th, not on the day when he was killed, what was your role in that public violence incident?
MR MASITHULELA: Well on the 28th of February at Edward Mahvunga's place I was in the midst of the youth who went to put the house on fire so that he could be evicted from Mahvunga Village. I was one of those people who burned one of the rooms in Edward Mahvunga's house.
CHAIRPERSON: On the first attempt?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes, if I am not mistaken it was on the day when Petrus Mahvunga's house was burned down. I might be mixing the date.
MS PATEL: Maybe I can help you. The public violence matter for which you were convicted occurred on the same day that Petrus Mahvunga's house was burnt down. Does that help you?
MR MASITHULELA: Could you repeat the statement.
MS PATEL: I am saying the public violence charge for which you were convicted, the burning of the house of Mr, or burning of the property of Edward Mahvunga occurred on the same day that the house of Petrus Mahvunga was burnt down.
MR MASITHULELA: Well that is why I in my answer said I could not remember exactly whether it happened on the same day.
CHAIRPERSON: Anyway look what did you do there at the deceased's house on the first attack? That's what we want to know.
MR MASITHULELA: On the first day of the attack we were so many. We found Boshoff Mahvunga, Mtengeni Mahvunga, they were the ones who were in the yard. When we saw the group of the youth coming towards the house they ran away, jumped the fence. When they left the youth who were there started destroying or breaking the windows. I was also involved in doing that. I was also involved in the arson case ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: How did they start ...(intervention)
MR MASITHULELA: Well they were just throwing stones.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And that was an attack on the deceased's house on the 28th. Was it burnt that day or not?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes it was burned on the same day.
CHAIRPERSON: But not at that attack - or when? When they started throwing the stones was it that same incident where the house was burnt?
MR MASITHULELA: Just when the stones were being thrown the other ones were burning.
CHAIRPERSON: The other incident is when the house was burnt on the 6th of April.
MR MASITHULELA: Could you repeat that please.
CHAIRPERSON: There were two incidents of attack on the deceased's house, correct?
MR MASITHULELA: Are you referring to Edward Mahvunga's house?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he's the deceased.
MR MASITHULELA: Yes it is true.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. The one occurred for the purposes of this application on the 28th of February.
MR MASITHULELA: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And the other one occurred on the 6th of April when Edward was killed.
MR MASITHULELA: What I did was to throw stones ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No wait we are coming - I am just trying to identify the incidents. Do you agree?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I agree with that.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Now on the 6th of April you were convicted and you make application for amnesty in respect of arson in that that house of Edward was burnt on the 6th of April.
MR MASITHULELA: It is true.
CHAIRPERSON: Let's go to the 28th of February.
MR MASITHULELA: That is what I ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: When the stones were thrown. You threw and other colleagues of yours threw stones, broke windows etc.
MR MASITHULELA: Yes ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Whilst the house burnt on that day.
MR MASITHULELA: Yes, it was burned.
CHAIRPERSON: Now it was burnt a second time on the 6th of April.
MR MASITHULELA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Ms Patel.
ADV DE JAGER: The first burning of the house in February, did Edward already receive a "trek pass" at that stage?
MR MASITHULELA: Well I don't know. Well I said regarding the "trek pass" I only learnt from my colleagues or other people. When that was happening I had already been arrested on charges of arson on Petrus Mahvunga and Edward Mahvunga. I was already in jail when all those kind of things were happening regarding the "trek pass".
ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't know anything about the "trek pass" until after the arrest?
MR MASITHULELA: Well I didn't know anything. That is why I was saying I had an imaginary view of what happened regarding the "trek pass" and I also learnt it from other people.
ADV DE JAGER: When did you learn it from the other people? When did you for the first time hear of a "trek pass"?
MR MASITHULELA: Well I for the first time when I heard about the "trek pass" was after the death of the deceased.
ADV DE JAGER: So they were not telling him there - "listen here's a "trek pass" you should move out, you should go away and then we leave you", they didn't try to persuade him to go and tell him "listen we've got a "trek pass" for you"?
MR MASITHULELA: Could you repeat the statement.
ADV DE JAGER: That on the 6th of April, the day when he was killed, didn't the people tell him "listen you should move out, we've got a "trek pass" for you. The Chief issued a "trek pass" - go, and then we won't attack you"?
MR MASITHULELA: Well he was told.
ADV DE JAGER: Now didn't you hear it?
MR MASITHULELA: I didn't hear that. I only learned that some people who were on the other side said or declared that -there were a lot of things which were said. No one will really identify that so-and-so said the following things. There were so many people and people were shouting and ...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: You are trying to evade my question. Did you hear about a "trek pass" before the man was killed?
MR MASITHULELA: I said I heard about the "trek pass" after this man had already died.
ADV DE JAGER: So on the day of the killing you didn't hear people say, "move out of the vicinity, you've got a trek pass, get away from our village"?
MR MASITHULELA: Well I didn't hear that at the place where I was.
MS PATEL: Did you hear about the list that there was ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you tell me earlier, or tell us earlier that you heard about this "trek pass" in the meeting, the youth meeting when you people were discussing this whole issue, before the man died?
MR MASITHULELA: I said I heard about the "trek pass" and they said there was a meeting.
CHAIRPERSON: But didn't you tell me earlier that you were called to a meeting where this man was discussed and then you went to his house? That's what you said.
MR MASITHULELA: That was on the day when the late died.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Before he died.
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I heard that before he died.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you are telling my colleague that you only heard about it for the first time after he died. You were in jail or wherever.
MR MASITHULELA: Yes, well logically what I want to say is that I was in jail, yes it's true, but I enquired and I was told about it.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja but the whole issue was when was the first time you heard about the "trek pass". Now you've given us two versions of it. One before he died and one after he died. Now what gives - what's the truth?
MR MASITHULELA: Well personally on the day when I heard about the "trek pass" and that he was given was when I was out of jail on the 5th of April. I was released on the day in which Mr Ramushwana took over the government.
CHAIRPERSON: And on the 6th of April the deceased died.
MR MASITHULELA: Yes he died.
ADV DE JAGER: Did Mr Ramushwana take over the government before the deceased was killed?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes he took over the government and the deceased died the next day.
ADV DE JAGER: And did Mr Ramushwana, when he took over the government, announce that he would incorporate Venda with Pretoria again?
MR MASITHULELA: He did not say that - I remember in his speech he alluded to the fact that he made the country governable and minimise the violence and he will end the violence. That is what I heard on his speech.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Patel.
MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. We've had testimony that there was a list of witches that were to be dealt with by the community, were you aware of this list?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes I am quite aware of that.
MS PATEL: Do you know when the list was compiled? Was it before the first attack on Mr Mahvunga's house, Edward Mahvunga's house?
MR MASITHULELA: The list was - I don't know about the list, I know that so-and-so was suspected of witchcraft, not a list.
MS PATEL: But you have just stated Sir, that you knew about the list.
MR MASITHULELA: I am referring to the logical order of the people who were suspected of witchcraft.
MS PATEL: When did you hear about this?
MR MASITHULELA: When I first heard about that, before the house of Petrus Mahvunga was burnt, I can't remember the date.
MS PATEL: Okay, and can you recall whether by that time, Edward Mahvunga had made his political feelings, or his feelings about your political activity, known or did that happen after the list came out, after you know it was said that these people must be dealt with?
MR MASITHULELA: Could you repeat it please?
MS PATEL: Okay, you say that you heard that there were certain people who were named at witches and wizards and who were to be dealt with, right?
MR MASITHULELA: Yes, it is true. When you say to be dealt with, what are you referring to?
CHAIRPERSON: They will be banished or asked to leave or whatever. There was a list of alleged wizards and witches, not so? Do you know about that list?
MR MASITHULELA: I know about the names of the people who were said to be on the list.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so you know about the list?
MR MASITHULELA: If I know about the names, it seems to be logical to say yes, I know about the list, but I didn't personally handle or hold the list in my hand.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, that is all that was asked of you.
MS PATEL: Okay, thank you sir. This list that was compiled, the names of the people that were on that list, can you tell us whether you know whether any of those people that were on the list, had interfered in the political activity of the Youth?
MR MASITHULELA: Well, regarding the witches, especially the ones who were on the list, the ones who were involved in the politics, was Mr Edward Mahvunga.
MS PATEL: Is he the only one on the list of alleged suspected or alleged, yes, witches and wizards who was in some way linked to political activities?
MR MASITHULELA: Well, I know of him only. I can't tell exactly, I heard about the other people who were being alleged, but I don't know whether there were any difficulties in that regard, but if they had obstructed our way, we could have also realised that they were in support of what I thought that Mr Edward was alleged to be witch and his co-operation with the government of the day.
MS PATEL: Okay. Can you tell us whether you know from your experience, whether Edward had in fact antagonised the youth politically prior to the list having been formulated?
MR MASITHULELA: Could you repeat?
MS PATEL: Okay, can you tell us sir, whether you know that Edward Mahvunga had interfered with the Youth's political activity prior to the list having been formulated or was there the list first and then there was the interference from him with your political activity?
MR MASITHULELA: In my answer I said that I heard about a list of these people who were suspected of being witches after the death of the deceased, whereas I have heard about the other names some of the names, before I was released. I gathered some names like Mtsinya, Wilisoga, Gangari.
CHAIRPERSON: We haven't got time to listen to irrelevant, stuff that you haven't been asked. All you have been asked is did the deceased interfere with the Youth before or after you came to know about that list?
MR MASITHULELA: No, because during that time, we didn't really have this political activities, because it was just an emotional activity from other countries, and it was really flickering down to our community.
CHAIRPERSON: So what you are saying is that he only started interfering with the youth after this list was drafted?
MR MASITHULELA: It could be that he started involving himself after the list.
MS PATEL: So then, if that is the position that he only involved himself with the youth on that level, after the list, is it fair then to say that he would have been dealt with in terms of either banishment or being killed, regardless of his involvement with the Youth, that because there was the list that was out, he would have been dealt with any way by the Youth?
MR MASITHULELA: Well, in my view, I think he would have been dealt with because it was in accordance with those who were also suspected of being witches, so that they shall be banished. Because he was one of those people who were suspected as witches, he could have been taken away as well. He was so aggressive, because he wanted to defend himself, he was not the same as other people.
MS PATEL: And then just finally sir, did you have an axe with you at the house of Edward on the day that he was killed.
INTERPRETER: Sorry are you saying axe?
MS PATEL: An axe, yes.
MR MASITHULELA: I didn't have an axe. However, as I was being cross-questioned in the Supreme Court, I heard that, I learnt from Rosinnah Mahvunga saying that I had an axe. On my recollection, I sold the axe when the deceased died, but I didn't have it in my hand. It was alluded to that I used the axe.
CHAIRPERSON: I am not concerned about what was alluded to, you say you didn't have an axe?
MR MASITHULELA: I didn't have an axe, no.
MS PATEL: Okay, and you didn't have a petrol bomb with you either?
MR MASITHULELA: I didn't have a petrol bomb.
MS PATEL: All right, thank you Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
MR NDOU: No re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
