CHAIRPERSON: Just for the purposes of continuity, the matter we heard yesterday involved a number of applicants. It involved Mr Labuschagne, who unfortunately was not here. I have been in communication with his attorney and I've told him that it is desirable that his client's application be heard by the Panel as it is presently constituted, because a great deal of the evidence relevant to the background in this matter has already been placed before us. The members of the family of the deceased were present throughout the hearing. One wants to avoid causing them inconvenience and the upshot of it is, I have now arranged for him, that's Mr Britz, to give him a special dispensation by interposing his application at half past nine on Wednesday morning. He is going to come down with his client and we will then be able to close this chapter of the hearing. So, we must work between now and then on the basis that on Wednesday morning we might have to suspend whatever we are doing to enable us to finish another matter. Thank you.
Are we ready to begin Mr Visser?
MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson. Mr Chairman, ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry to tell you, you must realise that the delay in beginning this hearing is not due to any delay on the part of members of the Committee.
MR VISSER: The thought never crossed my mind, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: We're trying to organise our schedule in such a way that we can bring forward matters set down in the future so that we can save more time.
MR VISSER: Yes. Yes, while we're on that point, Mr Chairman, Ms Thabethe has an impossible task, it seems, to bring matters forward. Perhaps the problem here is in the whole attempt to place matters for certain dates. It would seem and the present hearings do seem to be the best example of that, that one must place the incidents without dates, to run as a running role, so that people must know that they must keep themselves available because we are under an accelerated situation and it just won't do for attorneys and advocates to say "I'm sorry, you said it was the 3rd and therefore I'm not available before then".
CHAIRPERSON: That is part of the problem.
MR VISSER: Yes, that is certainly a big part of the problem.
CHAIRPERSON: That is part of the problem, the other part of the problem is the unavailability of the dependants.
MR VISSER: Yes, of course.
CHAIRPERSON: And sometimes that has caused a great deal of delay, but I appreciate the ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: We attempt to assist as far as we are possible, but our hands are also tied. We can only be ready to go on with our clients, but we can't speak for others, as long as you understand that.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, good, I do.
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I briefly refer you back to the Cele matter, just one matter which I neglected to mention? You will recall that in the evidence of Lawrence Wasserman, he mentioned that he shot Cele with a firearm. Now we did not lead him fully on that, but if necessary when he comes back he can give the evidence. It was a Russian firearm, a Makarov, I don't know whether he said so.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR VISSER: But the fact is Mr Chairman, what I neglected to do, was to add to his request for amnesty, amnesty also for possession of an unlicensed firearm and ammunition, if you would be prepared to consider that as well?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we are now proceeding to the matter of Mr Tekere, M K Tekere. In this matter we act for Mr Vorster, Mr du Preez and Mr Wasserman and we will first of all call Mr Vorster. You, I hope have before you the additional bundle which has been prepared by Ms Thabethe in the Tekere matter because that bundle includes the statements, which we have prepared of their evidence, at page 37 of the additional bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have that.
MR VISSER: If you will then turn to page 37, Chairperson, you will find the evidence of Vorster. I beg leave to call him. He will give his evidence in Afrikaans and he has no objection to taking the oath.
J A VORSTER: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Vorster, you have given evidence previously before this Committee, is that correct?
MR VORSTER: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: And do you incorporate that evidence, in so far as it may be relevant, to this evidence that you are intending to give?
MR VORSTER: That is correct.
MR VISSER: What was your share in the Tekere incident? Will you go to page 38 of the additional bundle and please address the Committee.
MR VORSTER: Chairperson, during the end of 1988 or the beginning of 1989,...(intervention)
MR VISSER: Just a moment please. Is there a problem with the microphone?
CHAIRPERSON: You carry on, we're trying to get another one.
MR VISSER: Well, let's rather get you a proper one.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You were saying that towards the end of 1988 or beginning of 1989?
MR VORSTER: That is correct Chairperson, I'm not certain of the date, Col A R C Taylor contacted me telephonically and requested for me to meet him at a safe-house in Pietermaritzburg. It was on a farm in the Elandskop vicinity, which was used by me as a safe-house.
MR VISSER: Is that the same farm that you referred to yesterday during your evidence regarding the Cele incident?
MR VORSTER: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: Please proceed.
MR VORSTER: He requested me to meet Maj du Preez and W/O Wasserman in Pietermaritzburg and to bring them with to the farm. I met them in Pietermaritzburg and they followed me in their car to the farm. Upon our arrival there it was already dark.
I found Col Taylor, along with a black man, there. In this regard I was mistaken in my supplementary statement, on page 37 of the Tekere bundle.
MR VISSER: Please continue.
MR VORSTER: By saying that I found du Preez and Wasserman on the farm as well.
Col Taylor informed us that the black man's MK name was Tekere and that he was a trained terrorist as well as a member of the ANC's Special Operations Unit. That he had received specialist training in the manufacturing of explosive devices and that he had knowledge regarding the situation of DLBs and I would just like to specify that DLBs in this regard refers to weapon stockpiling locations. Col Taylor further informed us that he had attempted to recruit Tekere to co-operate with the Security Branch, but that this was unsuccessful. He also said that he believed the Tekere could not be released because he would continue with his terrorist activities. Furthermore, he could also not be released because he would then be capable of identifying members of the Security Branch as well as informers.
I noticed that Col Taylor in his amnesty application, that being Tekere bundle page 4.
MR VISSER: That's the original bundle Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR VORSTER: Said that Tekere had been captured whilst he was on his way to set an explosive device. I cannot recall whether Taylor told me this on that particular evening, but it is possible.
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, perhaps I should just read that in page 4 the late Mr Taylor said
"My recollection of this incident is vague. If I obtain further information about this, I will file a supplementary affidavit."
CHAIRPERSON: I see that.
"What I remember about Tekere is the following. Tekere was an ANC operative who was caught while on a mission to place bombs in the Durban area."
That is what the reference is about and this witness says he can't recall that that was told to him.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR VORSTER: According to Col Taylor, he did not possess sufficient evidence to prosecute Tekere, consequently he decided that Tekere had to be eliminated. Due to this information it became clear to us, or at least to me, that Tekere had been abducted and was being detained unlawfully. On the basis of our subsequent actions, I therefore associated myself with this. After this briefing ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: How did you come to the conclusion that Tekere had been abducted?
MR VORSTER: Chairperson, the fact that Col Taylor had informed me that he could not prosecute the man due to insufficient evidence, led me to the inference that this man was being unlawfully detained.
MR VISSER: And if he had been illegally arrested and registered as an arrestee and if after that he had been killed, would there have been any problems?
MR VORSTER: Yes, there would definitely have been very big problems.
MR VISSER: So in other words, if Taylor said to you that he had decided that the man had to be eliminated, was that an indication to you that he was illegally under arrest?
MR VORSTER: It was an indication to me that he was unlawfully under arrest.
MR VISSER: And that is what you have referred to?
MR VORSTER: Yes.
MR VISSER: Very well, proceed.
MR VORSTER: After this briefing I took du Preez and Wasserman to a pine plantation where I pointed out a place where they could dig a grave. It was already dark. This place was close to a driveway to the garages. I went back to the house where I discussed the matter further with Col Taylor. Tekere was inside the house and the two of us spoke to each other outside the house. We discussed Tekere further. I want to emphasise it that I am not capable of recalling such aspects of the information that I have referred to above, which were given to me by Taylor during the briefing, where du Preez and Wasserman were present, as well as the session that I discussed with Taylor.
After a while du Preez and Wasserman returned. At that stage Taylor and I were inside the house with Tekere. I can recall that Col Taylor nodded his head and that du Preez and Wasserman took Tekere outside. Tekere was told that he would be transferred and he was blindfolded, his hands were bound behind his back. After a while du Preez and Wasserman returned and said that it was done.
The following day I returned to the safe-house to make sure that there were no signs of the events from the previous evening.
MR VISSER: If I could just interrupt you for a moment. We have seen this very same pattern in the evidence with regard to the murder of Mr Cele where it was about a person who was actively involved in political violence, is that correct?
MR VORSTER: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: There was also another person with whom the pattern was precisely the same.
MR VORSTER: Yes.
MR VISSER: Who was that?
MR VORSTER: That was Portia Ndwandwe.
MR VISSER: Yes. It is a pity that these three cases could not be heard concurrently, but let us just leave it there. From your recollection, can you tell the Committee what the sequence was of Cele, Ndwandwe and Tekere, or are you not capable of recalling what the chronological sequence of events was with regard to these three cases?
MR VORSTER: As far as I can recall, it was first Ndwandwe, I beg your pardon, it was Cele first, then Ndwandwe and then Tekere.
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I'm favoured with an attorney who has the kind of mind that remembers dates. I see him writing down dates here. These dates are for Cele, it was July 1988, Ndwandwe was October 1988 and Tekere was towards the end of 1988, beginning of 1989, so it would seem that that would be the order.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR VISSER: There is a reference, however, somewhere in the papers, I'm not sure where I saw it, that Tekere was in fact murdered on the 7th of August 1988, but we've not been able to verify that date, Chairperson, but it would appear that those were the three incidents which revolved basically around the same situation and the same set of facts and they were all buried on the farm and my information is that those graves were all pointed out by some of the applicants and exhumations took place. I see Commissioner Lax agrees with me.
Yes, perhaps the family, if, well how would they know? If the family does know a better date perhaps, they could clear the question.
CHAIRPERSON: You can carry on with your evidence.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Please proceed.
MR VORSTER: The acts and omissions which I committed, I did in the execution of my official duties, under the order of a higher officer, whose orders I was obliged to execute. I did this as part of the opposition to the struggle and my actions were aimed against the supporters of a liberation movement. What I did, I did in order to protect the interests of the Government and the National Party, as well as to combat the revolutionary onslaught. As such I believed bona fide that what I did fell within my express or implied authorisations.
MR VISSER: Very well, we will discuss that further in a moment. Mr Chairman, if you'll just allow me a moment. In the additional bundle you would have noticed that there is documentation pertaining to a medico legal post-mortem report and there is also a report. It is the TRC interview information, from page 3 onwards. Perhaps, Mr Chairman, page 4 might be of some relevance.
CHAIRPERSON: This is the additional bundle?
MR VISSER: The additional bundle, yes Mr Chairman. Page 4 may be of some relevance, where the person who makes the statement, Anna Sithole, describes Mr Tekere as a very politically active person since 1978, and that he was harassed by the police and he went into hiding and she identifies him by his code name as Tekere and she refers apparently, oh no, she says she was never arrested or tortured by the police, that's not relevant, but I just thought that we might point that out to you.
Mr Vorster you then request amnesty in so far as you have associated yourself with it for the unlawful detention or deprivation of freedom of Mr Tekere and for your share in his murder. Mr Chairman we did say at page 37, his abduction, but this witness wasn't involved in that, so that would fall away, it would be the unlawful detention and the murder and any such lesser offence which may emanate from the facts and circumstances of this case. Is that correct?
MR VORSTER: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Had you known the man, Tekere, before you say him for the first time with Taylor?
MR VORSTER: No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And the information that you got about his political activity, if you had not been told by Taylor, you would not have known anything about him?
MR VORSTER: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You haven't been able to ascertain how it came about that Tekere found himself in the custody of Taylor?
MR VORSTER: No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And to your knowledge nobody has thrown any light to you on where Tekere was originally arrested, or apprehended?
MR VORSTER: No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that all the evidence?
MR VISSER: That's the evidence from this witness, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?
MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: I've got no questions save to say that I just want to refer to the late Col Taylor's affidavit on page 4 of the original bundle.
Mr Vorster in the final paragraph, the final sentence Col Taylor says that he cannot recall, it was either at Verulam or Elandskop, we confirm according to your statement, that it was Elandskop.
MR VORSTER: That is correct.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Do you have any questions?
MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, just a few.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Mr Vorster, I'm trying to understand what your role was in this whole incident. Were you present when the deceased was interrogated?
MR VORSTER: No, Chairperson.
MS THABETHE: So what would you say your role was in the whole incident?
MR VORSTER: The farm or the safe-house was under my custody or my control and I believe that that is the reason why I was called. My other role was to bring Wasserman and du Preez to the farm because they were not familiar with the environment or the situation of the farm.
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, no questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: I trust from what you've just said that you had nothing to do with the interrogation at all of Tekere?
MR VORSTER: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And would you know who interrogated him?
MR VORSTER: Chairperson, while Wasserman and du Preez dug the grave, Taylor and I were in the house with Tekere and Taylor consistently communicated with Tekere in Zulu and what emerged from that is something that I cannot comment on or even say anything about, because I don't understand the language.
CHAIRPERSON: Which means that as far as you are concerned, you did not converse or talk to Tekere?
MR VORSTER: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions to ask?
MR LAX: Mr Vorster, I just want to be clear on something. When you got to the farm at Elandskop, Taylor and Tekere were already there?
MR VORSTER: That is correct.
MR LAX: Were they waiting at the house? Were they inside the house?
MR VORSTER: They were inside the house.
MR LAX: How had Taylor got access to the house? You were in control of the property?
MR VORSTER: The key was left at a particular point and Taylor was aware of where that point was.
MR LAX: Was it normal that he would just make use of the house without informing you beforehand?
MR VORSTER: No, Chairperson. I believe that that was the reason why he called me to the farm, because he was already there and I had to know about it.
MR LAX: Do you have any idea how long he had been at the house before he phoned you?
MR VORSTER: I have no idea and I also cannot recall at what time he contacted me during the day, but there was a pre-appointed time for Wasserman and du Preez to wait for me in Pietermaritzburg, after which we would go to the farm. I cannot say at what time Taylor arrived on the farm.
MR LAX: But he was alone with Tekere on the farm until you brought Wasserman and du Preez there?
MR VORSTER: That is correct, as far as I can recall. I cannot recall anybody else there.
MR LAX: And how did Tekere look when you saw him? What condition was he in?
MR VORSTER: To me he appeared normal. I cannot say with certainty but if I think back, I think that he was cuffed, or that his hands were bound. He sat in an easy chair and Col Taylor sat opposite him on another item of furniture.
MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where they had come from?
MR VORSTER: I have no idea.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR LAX: Just one last thing.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR LAX: And you didn't ask Taylor where this guy came from and what he was doing with him there?
MR VORSTER: Chairperson, as I have stated in my evidence in chief, I cannot recall what was said when, but I cannot recall that Taylor told me where he had come from or how he had been arrested. As I have stated, I may have read in his submission or his application, that this man was on his way to place an explosive device, but I cannot recall that he told me this specifically.
MR LAX: You see, all I'm just trying to understand is, you find Taylor there with a man, by all accounts you don't ask him anything, you just assume that this is okay. Didn't your inquisitiveness or your - I mean, after all you were a detective, you were a Security Branch policeman, you must have wondered what on earth he was doing with this man?
MR VORSTER: Chairperson, as I have stated, I cannot recall everything that was said. I may have asked him, it is possible, and he may have told me, but I simply can't remember it.
MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?
MR VISSER: If you'll just allow me one moment, Chairperson.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, perhaps not by way of re-examination, perhaps not re-examination, but perhaps it might be helpful just to place on record that very soon before Col Taylor died, my attorney had made an appointment with him together with his attorney in order to obtain fuller information from him to place before the Amnesty Committee, but before that could come to pass, he had passed away, so we are stuck with the situation where we have ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: We can't take the matter any further.
MR VISSER: We can't take the matter any further at all, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I understand.
MR VISSER: And I may add that perhaps Mr Nel will draw your attention to that, that on the record in the previous hearing it was made quite clear that towards the end of his life he was very confused and you will also see it in one of the amnesty applications which is to come before you, that he was very confused about facts of incidents and details, Chairperson. I refer you to the Ndwandwe record at page 731 where Mr Nel actually brought this out, the bad memory of Mr Taylor and you can read that for yourself, Mr Chairman, I'm not going to read it into the record, but there were problems discovering from Mr Taylor towards the end of his life, what he knew and the problem was that in certain incidents he just gave an order and the applicants now find themselves that they have to rely on what they were told by him and they can't take the matter any further.
CHAIRPERSON: Just to clear in my own mind, what was the relationship in terms of seniority between Mr Taylor and the applicant?
MR VORSTER: Chairperson, at that stage I was a Major and Col Taylor was already a Colonel. He was the senior officer.
MR VISSER: Would it have occurred to you to doubt or question or to insubordinate his orders?
MR VORSTER: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
MR VISSER: May this witness then be excused?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, may I interpose, with your permission please, before the witness is excused?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: My learned friend referred to an arrest that took place in 1978, I don't know whether I'm mistaken. I just want to clarify that point before we proceed.
MS THABETHE: 1978. He referred to something in 1978.
MR VISSER: No, Mr Chairman, we referred to the additional bundle at page 4, where a lady by the name of Anna Sithole told the investigation unit that he was politically active since 1978. That was one statement. The question of the arrest should not even have been mentioned by myself, because it refers to her which is irrelevant.
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, I just wanted clarification on that.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
