MS MTANGA: Chairperson, the next matter will be the matter of Mashigo, Manane and Magana. Chairperson, before we commence with that matter, could I be given an opportunity to speak with the families, the Mkhwanazi family in the matter that we've just concluded?
CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me?
MS MTANGA: Can I be given an opportunity to consult with the victims in the matter that we have just concluded?
CHAIRPERSON: Five minutes?
MS MTANGA: Five minutes will be enough for me Chairperson. Thank you very much.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Before we commence with this matter I would like to indicate to the Committee that the Correctional Services Officials have got a problem with waiting up until this matter is heard, because - that is Ntoka matter and Ntoka is in prison. And they feel that it's time for them to leave and they can't stay here.
CHAIRPERSON: Why?
MS MTANGA: Because if they stay beyond four they will be working overtime and they won't be getting paid for that. And that their position is that they want to leave now.
CHAIRPERSON: And what if we don't release Ntoka now? What happens? Do they just abandon...?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I'm not sure that we should call one of them to answer your questions.
MR MSINGA: I am Harry Msinga. I am working at Morabe Prison.
CHAIRPERSON: What is your rank?
MR MSINGA: I am a Correctional Officer, Grade 1. That is a warrant officer according to the previous categories.
CHAIRPERSON: How do I address you now?
MR MSINGA: You can just call me Mr Msinga.
CHAIRPERSON: Now Mr Msinga, I believe you have a problem today.
MR MSINGA: That's correct Chairperson, I do have a problem.
CHAIRPERSON: What seems to be the problem?
MR MSINGA: At four o'clock we are supposed to be at Morabe. I have also two prisoners who went to the court and others went to hospital. So I was the first person to come here to bring this prisoner here, so I've been here for the whole day and there are other children that I have to fetch in Benoni to take them home. So I was just asking and requesting this Committee whether we can't be able to finish in time.
CHAIRPERSON: You see, when we sit in the Commission and Courts in general, the general times are we sit from nine to half past four. On many occasions we as Judges and members of the Committee sit beyond half past four in order to get this work done. If it needs the assistance of prison officials, then I would appreciate their co-operation in the matter. Have you got any comments about that?
MR MSINGA: I do not disagree with you that you need our co-operation, but I was requesting if, because we have been here the whole day, if you can be able to listen to our pleas.
CHAIRPERSON: But then if I listen and accede to your request I will be finishing work before I'm supposed to finish work. And you may have noticed that certain people are attacking the judges for not working, recently.
MR MSINGA: No, this is the first time that I hear about that. The only thing that I know is that the Judges always do their work properly.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you should tell the Minister that. But let's be serious. I would have to close this hearing then before time. How do we handle that? And there are people in jail who could possibly be released. And if they're going to be released, one day is too much to be in prison. Do you follow what I'm saying?
MR MSINGA: Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Therefore I'm pleading to you to understand that. I appreciate what your problems are. Last time I sat in the very room, about two months ago, I had similar requests from the officials - I don't know if you were one of them at that time - and I asked them, I acceded on the first day to their request and I asked them to make other arrangements for the following couple of days. I thought that would have been - those arrangements would have carried on till the end of doing the TRC work. I would hope that you don't insist on us stopping earlier than we're supposed to. Would not a couple of phone calls, a few phone calls sort out your problem?
MR MSINGA: The problem is that I have to go and fetch my kids and they know that I knock off at four o'clock. So they will be waiting for me at home then. That is why I was requesting this. Maybe tomorrow we can start with him. That was just a request that I was making before this Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, tomorrow we're finishing. Hopefully long before you need to fetch your children. Is there no way your colleagues can stay here and you can go if you want to? I don't know what arrangements you've made with your commanding officer about it. It's not for me to excuse you.
MR MSINGA: I am the person who signed for this car that we use to transport the prisoners.
CHAIRPERSON: So you want us to stop at three o'clock.
MR MSINGA: I am not saying that you should stop at three.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, you've got about an hour then to drop, to transport the prisoners, sign them in, sign the car in and go fetch your children in Benoni. Is that not so?
MR MSINGA: The kids are transported by somebody and he leaves them at work, so they are waiting for me at work. The car that I'm using now is my employer's car. It's not mine.
CHAIRPERSON: So isn't it possible that you could phone your officer there at work and ask him to look after your children until you come back? In this week it's going to be the last afternoon we're sitting.
MR MSINGA: I'll try to do so but I just want to know from the Judge what time are we going to finish?
CHAIRPERSON: Well, we plan to finish this following case in about 45 minutes at most, and then Ntoka we want to listen to his evidence in chief. Then we'll adjourn till tomorrow.
MR MSINGA: That is fine with me. I will phone my officer and tell him about this.
CHAIRPERSON: Thanks for your co-operation Sir.
MR MSINGA: I thank you.
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, we can continue with the matter of Mashigo, Manane and Magane.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, you mentioned a matter related to the previous case. Has that been sorted out?
MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson. I spoke to Mrs. Mogate and she has left.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Well, for the record I'm Judge Pillay. I'm going to ask my colleagues to announce themselves on the record and the different representatives.
ADV SIGODI: I'm Adv Sigodi from the Port Elizabeth Bar.
MR MALAN: Wynand Malan, TRC Commissioner.
MR MOHLABA: Booker Mohlaba for the three applicants. I'm from Pretoria, Mohlaba and Moshwana Inc.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you just spell your name please Sir?
MR MOHLABA: My first name is spelt B-O-O-K-E-R and my surname is spelt M-O-H-L-A-B-A.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you pronounce it Mohlaba?
MR MOHLABA: That's correct Your Worship. Chairperson.
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I am Lulama Mtanga, the evidence leader for the Truth Commission. If the Chairperson could allow me to place on record that the victim has not attended the hearing. It has arisen from our investigation that he has left his last known address and despite endeavours to try and locate him we have not succeeded. And we further placed an advert on the newspapers and on the radio to try and have him attend the hearing. But despite all those efforts he has not been able to attend the hearing.
CHAIRPERSON: I think that's the best we could have done and if there's no response, well there's nothing we can do. Mr Mohlaba, can you proceed please?
MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chairperson. I would like to call the first applicant, being Nephtal Manana and he likes to give his evidence in English.
NEPHTAL MANANA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: Mr Manana, you are one of the applicants in this matter. Is that correct?
MR MANANA: Correct.
MR MOHLABA: And you are applying for amnesty in respect of an offence of high treason, attempted murder and robbery with aggravating circumstances, is that correct?
MR MANANA: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that? High treason?
MR MOHLABA: Attempted murder and robbery with aggravating circumstances. Two counts of attempted murder Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: One count of robbery?
MR MOHLABA: That's correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Anything else? So we've got high treason, two attempted murders and robbery.
MR MOHLABA: That's correct Chairperson, except to add that these attempted murders and robbery where used where firearms and explosives were used there. And it's just cosmetic because they have indemnity for those offences Chairperson. And the offences in respect of which you are applying for amnesty were committed during or about 4 January 1980 at Soekmekaar. Is that correct.
MR MANANA: Correct.
MR MOHLABA: And you're applying for amnesty on the basis that these offences were committed by you with a political objective. Is that correct?
MR MANANA: Correct.
MR MOHLABA: Did you during that period - that is during the period January 1980 - belong to any known political organisation and if so, can you tell us the organisation?
MR MANANA: Yes, I was a member of the African National Congress which I joined in 1976. And then I went...
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, we've read the papers. We're quite au fait with the facts of the matter. If there are any other matters you want to raise in supplementing these then do so, but it's not necessary to repeat what is in the application.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chairperson. I want to take you to the actual offence which was committed around January 1980. Who was in your company when you committed those offences?
MR MANANA: It was myself, Nephtal Manana, Sepho Mashigo and Sipho Magane.
MR MOHLABA: And these people are your co-applicants, that is the second and the third applicant in our papers. Is that correct?
MR MANANA: Correct.
MR MOHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee the role which you played? That is why was this offence committed in the first place?
MR MANANA: It was committed because there were removals in that particular area, around Soekmekaar. And it was... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: What we in the past referred to as illegal removals?
MR MANANA: Yes. So it was during that period when we were intensifying what we called anti-propaganda. So Soekmekaar was targeted. Because that police station was being used by other police forces to meet there and go and remove our people in that particular area by force.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying they used the police who were involved in these forced removals were using Soekmekaar police station as a base?
MR MANANA: As a base, yes.
MR MOHLABA: Yes, continue?
MR MANANA: Our intention was to support the residents of that particular local area, to show them that the ANC and Umkhonto weSizwe will defend them and support them in their endeavour to remain in the place where they want to move them forcefully. So that operation was taken under those conditions.
MR MOHLABA: And you were ultimately arrested, convicted and sentenced to death in respect of these offences. Is that correct?
MR MANANA: Yes.
MR MOHLABA: Is that correct?
MR MANANA: Yes. We were arrested in January and sentenced to death in November of 1980.
MR MOHLABA: Who stood trial? Was it yourself and who else?
MR MANANA: It was myself, Sepho Mashigo, Sipho - no, I'm sorry. Johnson Luisi.
MR MOHLABA: And Sipho Magane did not stand trial. Is that correct?
MR MANANA: Sipho Magane didn't stand trial.
CHAIRPERSON: In the attack nobody died?
MR MOHLABA: Nobody died.
CHAIRPERSON: So your death sentence was in respect of high treason?
MR MANANA: It was in respect of high treason.
MR MOHLABA: Is it correct that the three applicants before the Committee today applied for indemnity for prosecution and that's the reason why you were released from custody. Is that correct?
MR MANANA: That's correct.
MR MOHLABA: Have you got anything to say to the Committee in support of your application other than what is already on paper? Because the Committee has already indicated that it is au fait with what you have placed on paper.
MR MANANA: Yes. It's that it should be understood by the Committee that the operation was basically politically motivated. It was not an operation, we took it because we were going to benefit as individuals. But it was an operation to support our communities, to support the struggle of our local people.
CHAIRPERSON: This whole operation on that police station was a planned attack?
MR MANANA: Yes, it was a planned attack.
CHAIRPERSON: Umkhonto weSizwe plan?
MR MANANA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Were all three of you within a particular unit?
MR MANANA: We were in the same unit the three of us.
CHAIRPERSON: Was there a particular name to that unit?
MR MANANA: No, there was no name.
CHAIRPERSON: Where were you trained?
MR MANANA: I was trained in the Soviet Union and Angola.
CHAIRPERSON: And your colleagues, were they trained?
MR MANANA: They were also trained.
CHAIRPERSON: Where?
MR MANANA: One was trained in Angola - no, two of them were trained in Angola. I'm the only one that was trained in the Soviet Union.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chairperson, that will conclude the evidence in chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: The military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe; the military wing was controlled by a chief of staff.
MR MANANA: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Would that person or staff, would that order come from them?
MR MANANA: It will come generally to the person involved with that particular operation.
CHAIRPERSON: From where?
MR MANANA: From the high command structures.
CHAIRPERSON: In this case who would they communicate with in South Africa?
MR MANANA: Could you repeat your question again?
CHAIRPERSON: Who would the high command have communicated with in South Africa?
MR MANANA: No, he's to communicate with us, people will be ...(indistinct).
CHAIRPERSON: With you?
MR MANANA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: With you?
MR MANANA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And where would the instruction come from?
MR MANANA: The instruction will come to the commander in chief who is responsible for that particular operation.
CHAIRPERSON: From where? From whom?
MR MANANA: In this case our commander was Joe Slovo.
CHAIRPERSON: Outside?
MR MANANA: Outside yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So the operation was carried out with full authority?
MR MANANA: It was carried out with full authority.
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to clear up something. You said you were indemnified from which offences?
MR MANANA: We were in prison at Robben Island... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, of these four offences you were indemnified for what?
MR MANANA: To my understanding we were indemnified for all of them.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you do now?
MR MANANA: I'm working.
CHAIRPERSON: On your own or what?
MR MANANA: Come again?
CHAIRPERSON: On your own business or...?
MR MANANA: No, I'm employed.
CHAIRPERSON: I want to ask you a question that you may not have thought of. Now that everything seems to be over, given what you've gone through and how you had to live those days, have you overcome the psychological scars of those days?
MR MANANA: I might say that one has overcome it, because it's very difficult to just convince yourself that you need to forget about what happened to you in the past and move forward. But then it becomes difficult if for instance you didn't undergo any therapy, you know to check whether in 10 years time you'll be the same person as you are.
CHAIRPERSON: That's precisely why I ask the question. Do you think that would be necessary? To undergo therapy?
MR MANANA: I think it will be necessary.
CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't matter how long ago the problems arose?
MR MANANA: It doesn't because it... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: It stays with you.
MR MANANA: It stays with you even if you can try and block it, but it will one day it will surface.
MR MALAN: I may just observe that some treatment by some therapists may leave more scars.
CHAIRPERSON: You're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
