CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. For the record I'm the Judge Ronnie Pillay. I'm going to ask my colleagues on the panel to announce themselves for purpose of the record and so to the different representatives.
JUDGE POTGIETER: My name is Denzil Potgieter.
ADV SIBANYONI: My name is J B Sibanyoni, a Member of the Committee.
MR MBANDAZAYO: My name is Lunga Mbandazayo, I'm representing the applicant in this matter. Thank you Chairperson.
MR MAPOMA: I am Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee, thank you.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, may I call the application of Lungo Nkumanda, amnesty application number 3347/96.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.
MR MAPOMA: Excuse me, Chairperson, before the proceedings commence Chairperson, I would like to place on record that the victims in this matter in particular the next-of-kin of the late Norman Beaton, the next-of-kin's name is Cyril Beaton, was served with a notice of this hearing personally by our investigator on the 19th October 1999 and we have not heard from them as to whether they are interested in attending to the hearing. We have got other interested persons who were can I say victims in the robbery incidents. Those are Mr Mela Williams and Mrs Cheryl Voldyn. Nobody was injured in that incident. But they have been notified as interested persons, they have indicated that they have no objection in the granting of amnesty in this matter. So to the extent that the next-of-kin of the late Mr Beaton may be interested, I'm going to take it up on myself to take care of their interests. In the circumstances Chairperson, I would move that we proceed with the hearing. Thank you sir.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, before the applicant is sworn in I would like to bring to the attention of the Committee that the affidavits which are in the bundle are not signed, the original is with me which is signed and I'll hand over to the Committee after we have finished this. The signed one is with me Chairperson. Can then, Chairperson and Honourable Members the applicant be sworn in?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkumanda, what language would you prefer to use?
INTERPRETER: The applicant will use Xhosa.
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.
Mr Nkumanda, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Members of the Committee. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by it's contents?
MR NKUMANDA: Yes I confirm that.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I will proceed and read the affidavit for the record.
CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you can lead him from the affidavit?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, if that's the feeling of the Committee that it won't be necessary to read then I'll ask him just to explain a few aspects in the affidavit.
Chairperson, I'll then turn to paragraph 10 of the affidavit. "The order of this operation was given by Kleintjie who was the regional commander. The reconnaissance was done by ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: Please slow down, we don't have the copy of the affidavit.
MR MBANDAZAYO: "The order of this operation was given by Kleintjie who was the regional commander. The reconnaissance was done by myself. This operation was carried out by myself as commander and Comrade Zozo."
Now Mr Nkumanda, can you then tell in your own words the Committee how was this order given by Kleintjie and how did you go about doing the reconnaissance of the target?
MR NKUMANDA: Thank you Chairperson. I met Kleintjie two weeks before the operation and he told me that there was an operation that I was supposed to carry out and there's a shortage of guns. He told me that there are Brito vehicles that deliver the bread in the township and he even explained the route that they normally use. On my own I monitored this Brito because they would use the Jakisa route through New Brighton. He used to go to Sangoti. Thus we targeted that place because it was very dark in the morning when they delivered. My reconnaissance took six to seven days. I used to monitor it daily in the morning whilst they were delivering the bread from Monday to Saturday and the following Monday. After having monitored this I went back to Kleintjie where we met in number 74 in Agrie and I gave him the details as to how many occupants were normally in the car and what route they normally used. He said that was correct, that's how he knew and we will see each other at a later stage.
On the evening before the mission he arrived again. He went there and found that they were carrying a 7.65 mm firearm which was fully loaded and he handed me that pistol and he gave me two knives as well. He instructed me to go and fetch that firearm so that the Africans must be liberated and he gave me a hug which a norm and thus we parted.
As time went on at about 10 o'clock Zozo arrived. We were just discussing about the operation because he was already aware about the operation during the week. We slept and woke up the following morning and we proceeded to Sangoti.
MR MBANDAZAYO: What happened when you arrived at Sangoti?
MR NKUMANDA: Early in the morning we went past the square using some foot paths to Sangoti and we waited across the street opposite this house. Our target arrived as we'd expected with four occupants inside it. It was the driver, a security guard and two van boys. Three alighted the vehicle which was the security guard and the two van boys. The security guard took cover and the two van boys proceeded to open the back of the van. They took out the bread into the house where they were during the delivery. At that moment we emerged and approached the security guard. I was carrying this 7.65 mm gun and Zozo was armed with a knife. I produced the firearm and I told him in Afrikaans that "I want your firearm". He said to me that he does not have it. Zozo advanced, approached him and went for his waist because he could see that he was actually having a firearm on his waistline. There was a quarrel between them and he wanted to reach out for his firearm, he wanted to draw it and I told Zozo to give way and I shot him once. He ran away down Sangoti. We crossed the street and we just ran the opposite direction following him until he entered another house.
On our arrival at that house I instructed Zozo to wait at the gate for security reasons and I could see him lying on his back. I went stealthily towards him and I found that he was still having his firearm. I took that firearm and the ammunition, I retreated and we went back with Zozo to our normal meeting place which was number 74 Agrie Street.
Thereafter, we went our separate ways, me and Zozo. Later during the day at about 7 - 8 in the evening Kleintjie arrived and I gave him the report about the operation. Thereafter I handed him over the 7.65 that he had given to me earlier on and a round of ammunition plus the .38 revolver that we had taken from the security and we parted. That is the role that I played in this operation, your Honour.
MR MBANDAZAYO: I don't know whether the Committee would like me to cover both incidents before the question? Thank you Chairperson.
Now let's proceed to paragraph 13 regarding the second ...(indistinct) incident. Can you again, Mr Nkumanda, tell the Committee your role you played, how did you go about, how did you identify these places, the target and give the Committee the details of the incident there because all of were not there you were the only person who was there?
MR NKUMANDA: I met Kleintjie as I'd already explained, two weeks before the operation and he highlighted a problem that was existing within the APLA structures at that moment which was the shortage of weapons. He told me that our soft targets our police stations and the policemen who were residing in the township and also the security cars that would be monitored by the policemen in the township.
Should I be involved in an operation or rather I was involved in this operation because he had highlighted that the security vehicles that would move in the township were part of our soft targets thus I played a role in this operation.
MR MBANDAZAYO: This incident that happened at Korsten Cash 'n Carry if I'm not mistaken, can you tell the Committee about your role, who gave you the orders, how did you go about executing those orders?
MR NKUMANDA: Pardon me, Mr Chairman, I didn't hear the question properly?
In October I met Kleintjie who sent me to the Transkei to go and collect two AK-47 rifles and pistols because there was a shortage of weapons. I came back and handed over those weapons to him. He told me that there is an operation that's supposed to be carried out which was an operation of repossession and he told that it was in Korsten and he gave me all the details about the operation and where it was. There was a financial shortage and there were some things that were supposed to be bought. I had to reconnoitre the area as part of procedure. I did that for plus minus two weeks because I had to give a report, I did this in the mornings and in the afternoons twice a day. I would monitor who opens the business in the mornings and I'll also check them late in the evening when they close. I would give him the report of that reconnaissance daily. He approved because that's exactly used to happen according to his knowledge. A day before the operation he arrived at my new residential area which was in Sewu. He arrived in the evening with three revolvers and he told me that he trusts me and he'll leave everything in my hands and he hugged me as usual and he left.
I went to Changane to check the other combatants because that's where they stayed. I told them that we had to meet in the morning. I awoke up the following morning, it was Msinga who woke me up. He was driving a car. We left for Changane section from Sewu. We found those gentlemen in Changane section and gave them a gun each and I told them that they must wait for Msinati because we're still going, proceeding to Motherwell. I told them that I trust them, they must not let me down and I hugged them and we left with Msinati. We were going to Motherwell. We were going to take another repossessed car. I took that car and drove to Boston and Msinati went back to pick up the other gentleman. On my arrival at Korsten I parked the car and I went into a nearby shopping complex and bought myself a cooldrink. On my way out I spoke to them. I was talking in a way that no one could notice I was talking to them.
INTERPRETER: He is referring to his co-accused, that's the people that he was talking to.
MR NKUMANDA: The other combatants, that was Zozo, Impampi and Begas. I told them that you will enter and you'll find me in the car whilst you're finished. I went and waited in the car. After a few minutes they emerged running, carrying a bag of money, carrying the firearms, I went into the car and I asked them if everything went well. They confirmed that and I drove off. I noticed that there was a male person who was peering from upstairs because I noticed that I didn't actually tie that person up. Two police vans came from Stanford Road and thus I decided to take an alternate route which Governdale. I proceeded with Governdale Road until I got into a cul-de-sac and I realised that I had to drop this car, leave it because I had estimated that by now these people must have alerted the police. When we got off we saw another car that was parked there which was a white van. The driver was alighting the van. I ordered Begus to point this gentleman with a firearm and we should take the car. The driver of the car gave us the car keys and Impampi drove. We drove down Governdale in the direction of Algoa Park. We drove into another cul-de-sac again and we had to dump this car and we proceeded on feet running. There were cars and taxis that were giving chase at that time and the traffic officers as well. We ran in the direction of Algoa Park and we were crossing the veld and the people were also pursuing on foot as well. I told the soldiers to start firing because these people were nearing, they were going to catch up with us. They did that, they fired. We left until we got to a swimming pool but just before that there was a helicopter in the vicinity already and many police vehicles. We got into the swimming pool and the others hid to cover. I just only went as far as the entrance. I heard some firing after some time. We were taken into a car, a car by the policemen who had arrested us, there were dogs as well. That is how I was arrested. Zozo, he was being carried in a stretcher by the police, he was dead.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what happened to the other two guys, Impambi and Begus?
MR NKUMANDA: After our arrest we were sent to the St Albans Prison. Zozo was shot dead on the spot. We appeared in court and we were sentenced. I was sentenced eight years and two years suspended and they were also sentenced as well but they have been released already. I am still serving the sentence of the second operation.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all Chairperson at this stage, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Mr Nkumanda, where were you trained?
MR NKUMANDA: In the Transkei.
MR MAPOMA: Where?
MR NKUMANDA: In Tendani, the place is called Utafalofefe.
MR MAPOMA: And who was training you there?
MR NKUMANDA: We were trained by Jones.
MR MAPOMA: Who is Jones?
MR NKUMANDA: I would not know but he was just called Jones.
MR MAPOMA: Was he your commander?
MR NKUMANDA: He was our instructor in the training session.
MR MAPOMA: I suppose you were given political training as well, training on political lessons as well, am I correct?
MR NKUMANDA: That is correct, sir.
MR MAPOMA: And during those lessons targets were identified to you?
MR NKUMANDA: That is correct.
MR MAPOMA: Was it part of the targets or was it part of the operations, robbery, with a view to getting money?
MR NKUMANDA: That is correct, sir.
MR MAPOMA: And where was Kleintjie during the time when we were trained?
MR NKUMANDA: He was not there, I only met when I arrived in Port Elizabeth.
MR MAPOMA: Where is Kleintjie's home?
MR NKUMANDA: I do not know, sir.
MR MAPOMA: Where was he residing?
MR NKUMANDA: We would normally meet in Agrie but I first met him in Soweto. I would not say that he was staying in Soweto but we met for the second time in Agrie, he's the one who would normally come to me most of the time.
MR MAPOMA: Which Soweto are you talking about, the Transvaal Soweto?
MR NKUMANDA: The Soweto here in Port Elizabeth.
MR MAPOMA: What are Kleintjie's full names?
MR NKUMANDA: I knew him as Jabu Kleintjie.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, sorry, just for the benefit of the Committee, on my investigation of the name Kleintjie, the only Kleintjie that we could get was Tabiso Makwala was from Bloemfontein. He passed away in prison last year, he was in jail, he was also an amnesty applicant at the time.
CHAIRPERSON: That's the closest we can get?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I'm going to allow you to answer this question rather than you client because I've noticed that legal technicalities rather confuse untrained people. What other applications in respect of action, what is the answer? What offences in other words?
MR MBANDAZAYO: The offences, Chairperson, which the applicant is applying for is the murder in the first instant.
CHAIRPERSON: Well that is the - which is offence is that? The New Brighton incident. Are you talking about the New Brighton incident?
MR MBANDAZAYO: The New Brighton incident, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Only murder?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Murder and robbery, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And robbery. Now do we know the identity of the person in respect of the murder charge or murder count?
I can't seem to find a name in the bundle, I don't know.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, also myself I've tried you know, in fact Chairperson, in fact to be frank that was the other reason that this matter came in for hearing, it was in January and it was because of that it was not heard, it was to investigate the name of the victim which of course all of us did not come up with.
MR MAPOMA: Chair, if I may assist? The name is Norman Beaton who was the security guard. Norman Beaton, the surname is B-E-A-T-O-N and the next-of-kin who was notified is Cyril Beaton, the father to the deceased person.
CHAIRPERSON: And we're talking of robbery in respect of a firearm?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: From the deceased?
MR MBANDAZAYO: From the deceased.
CHAIRPERSON: So I can assume without the witness saying so that that person died after being shot by the applicant?
MR MAPOMA: He died as a result of that incident.
CHAIRPERSON: So we've got murder and robber of Mr Norman Beaton in the New Brighton incident?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Is there anything else he's applying for?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, the other incident, the other he is applying for although it was not in the application of the possession of arms and ammunition because he had ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: In respect of this murder?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, a 7.5 which he was carrying on the day in question.
CHAIRPERSON: Unlawful possession?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR MBANDAZAYO: And the second incident Chairperson, is the robbery and of course the possession of .38.
CHAIRPERSON: Robbery of what?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Robbery, Chairperson, they robbed an amount of about R93 000 at Costi, Chairperson, the second incident in which they were arrested as a result of being chased, Chairperson. I understand it's written here as Unity Agencies.
CHAIRPERSON: You say about R93 000?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, about R93 000 according to the applicant is what transpired in court that it was an amount of about R93 000.
CHAIRPERSON: And also unlawful possession of firearms?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Anything else?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson that is all that the applicant is applying for regarding these two incidents.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all Chairperson, I was just confirming with the applicant regarding the others. He confirms that he was never charged for the other incidents that's why he never applied for the taking of the car at the time when they were running away.
CHAIRPERSON: Well if you had to mention it, it's a bit too late because it doesn't appear.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, that's another problem I faced when I was consulting with him in prison, Chairperson, we couldn't because it's outside the date.
CHAIRPERSON: The date. Mr Mbandazayo, we don't need any argument from you on these two matters, I just want to find out from Mr Mapomo what his attitude is to the application.
MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I have no objections.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll reserve judgement on this matter. We'll adjourn.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
