ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: ... of this cluster of hearings. We would be busying ourselves for the coming next two weeks. For the record, I am Motata, I would be chairing this hearing. On my right I have Adv Bosman and on my left Adv Sandi. The hearing would involve the following applicants: Messrs Eugene Alexander de Kock: amnesty number 0066/96, Douw Gerbrand Willemse: amnesty number 3721/96, Izak Daniel Bosch: amnesty number 3765/96 and Eugene Willemse: application number 3767/96. And we would hear the incident of the search at Effesis House, Swaziland.
I would, for the record, request the legal representatives to place their names on record.
MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is S W Hugo, I'm appearing on behalf of Mr E A de Kock.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hugo.
MR LAMEY: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Lamey of the firm Rooth and Wessels, I represent the applicant, Douw Gerbrand Willemse, Izak Daniel Bosch, and then I want to point out the third applicant that I represent, Mr Eugene Fourie. There's an error regarding his name on the bundle, it refers to Eugene Willemse, it's indeed Eugene Fourie.
CHAIRPERSON: Eugene Fourie.
MR LAMEY: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lamey.
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, perhaps before we start, I don't know whether I should address you at this stage regarding the position of Mr Willemse, who cannot attend the hearing.
CHAIRPERSON: Could we first get everybody, I think we still have our Evidence Leader, who is not on record yet.
MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence. I'm not sure whether I should stand in line now, after Mr Lamey I just wanted to put the position of the victims on record.
CHAIRPERSON: Please do so, it would make ...
MS PATEL: Alright, okay. It was alleged by some of the applicants that certain women were slapped in the corridor just outside the entrance I believe, to the premises that was in fact searched. We have been unable to trace who those, the names of the women who were in fact assaulted. Queries were directed through the South African High Commission to the Swaziland Embassy and we were unable through that route, we didn't have any success in that respect.
As regards the Swedish Embassy itself, we have representatives who are present. My instructions are that they are merely here in the capacity to do a watching brief and do not wish to participate in the proceedings.
CHAIRPERSON: Now these queries were, you say, through the Embassy, is it in Swaziland?
MS PATEL: That's correct, Honourable Chairperson.
And also, finally, members of the Swedish Embassy alerted us to the fact at some stage that according to their records a white woman was also, I think slapped on the premises. She was an ANC person. Queries were directed to the ANC TRD desk for assistance in this regard and we have been unable to trace this woman either.
CHAIRPERSON: Nor could we get a response from the ...(indistinct)
MS PATEL: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And as a result of all the enquiries made, we could proceed with this hearing?
MS PATEL: I am of that respectful opinion, Honourable Chairperson.
ADV BOSMAN: Ms Patel, just for the record as well, all the implicated persons have received notices, I see there's no legal representative in regard to Mr Willie Schutte. Have they all been notified of this hearing?
MS PATEL: Yes.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.
MS PATEL: Yes, I will just double-check my records in respect of Mr Schutte, but the rest have.
CHAIRPERSON: Whilst you are checking your records, looking at the implicated persons, I see there's one Joe Koole and your name as an attorney appears there, Mr Lamey, are you going to look after his interests as well?
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, I think the only applicant that refers to his name is Mr Willemse.
CHAIRPERSON: Your client?
MR LAMEY: Ja. Chairperson, I'll address you on Mr Willemse's position, but ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I just want to know about Koole first, whether you are going to take care of his interests as an implicated person.
MR LAMEY: I will, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR LAMEY: But I think that is a bona fide error in the application of Mr Willemse. I think I've good reason to, because he also refers to that fact Mr Koole is deceased and he certainly is not deceased, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So can we note that he's still alive? If he's not deceased, I think alive would be appropriate.
MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, I have double-checked my records, unfortunately the position of Mr Schutte is that they weren't able to trace him.
CHAIRPERSON: Is he not one of the security people?
MS PATEL: I'm not sure what his present position is, Honourable Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Would he be the same Schutte we had in the first application we heard here on Monday? Wasn't there a reference to Schutte?
MS PATEL: I'm sorry, you'll have to refresh my memory on that.
CHAIRPERSON: Pardon?
MS PATEL: You'll have to refresh my memory on that, I don't recall.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, thank you very much Ms Patel.
MS PATEL: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey, you wanted to place something on record in respect of Willemse.
MR LAMEY ADDRESSES: Thank you, Chairperson. I beg leave to hand up a psychiatric report relating to the condition of Mr Willemse, to the Committee, it's a copy. This document was also recently handed in, in the part-heard Nerston incident where Mr Willemse was an applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: As a non compos mentis?
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, may I just say this, I have not represented Mr Willemse throughout the amnesty hearings, in fact my colleague, Mr Rossouw, has represented him and also during the Nerston incident. As I understand it he's not non compos mentis in the sense that, in the strict sense of the word. During the Nerston incident I represented other applicants in that incident and Mr Willemse was initially here when the matter started, but during the course of the hearing he developed psychiatric problems, or the psychiatric problem manifested itself again, to the extent that he asked to be excused, through his legal representative, and he went immediately back to Mossel Bay where he stays, for further treatment and recently when the part-heard Nerston incident proceeded before another Committee, of which Mr Justice Wilson was the Chairman, this certificate was placed before the Committee. In that hearing ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: When was that hearing?
MR LAMEY: It was recently, I think about two to three weeks ago that hearing proceeded. And it was during the further continuation of that hearing a couple of weeks ago, that this certificate was handed to the Committee. The Committee dealt with the matter on the basis that there were certain aspects that were contentious and my colleague, Mr Rossouw, was requested by the Committee to obtain a further affidavit on those aspects from Mr Willemse and then to distribute that affidavit to all the interested parties and the Committee. I don't know how far that affidavit is, but I am aware that my colleague went down to Mossel Bay, I think it was the weekend of the, the first weekend of August and further consultation was conducted with Mr Willemse and a further affidavit prepared.
I don't know whether that affidavit has been signed already and has been distributed. What I know, Chairperson, is that the, and as I have been given to understand, that the testifying and the relating of the events themselves for Mr Willemse is problematic for his condition and in actual fact it aggravates every time his condition and he is experiencing the proceedings as a result of that, as very stressful. He's not at this stage, I'm given to understand, feeling well enough to testify.
CHAIRPERSON: Why I am asking you this is that the tenor of this certificate or psychiatric report, and I wouldn't technical speak ...(indistinct) this is a report, it would appear it's a letter informing the Committee and the Chairperson that he has been consulting with Mr Willemse from the 5th of August 1998, but it does not say that, 'I have seen him again on such and such a day and I'm still of the opinion that he would be mentally disturbed if he were to undergo evidence-in-chief and cross-examination'. It doesn't say that, that's why I'm asking you this.
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, if you see the letter is dated the 10th of July and the letter states in the first ... "en is vandag", he said he was seeing him since 5 August 1998 and he says
"En is vandag in opvolg gesien en evalueer"
That means then on the 10th of July, as recent as the 10th of July. I agree with you yes, we don't have the position as at today, a fresh report. I can endeavour to perhaps obtain a further report if that is required, but I submit that as recently as the 10th of July that was the position. I also, from what was conveyed to me by my colleague when he saw him in, as I said I think it was the first weekend of August, ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Because technically if we look at this letter it was directed or addressed to the Committee you have referred to, not to us. If I understood you correctly, because you say it was presented before Judge Wilson, so it wasn't for our purposes, or are you suggesting that we should take cognisance of this as well?
MR LAMEY: I think we should take cognisance of this as well, I think the letter was relatively recent. But I'm in the hands of the Committee here, if the Committee requires an updated fresh report, Chairperson, I could endeavour to obtain that. But I'm in the hands of the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me hear what your colleagues say about this. Mr Hugo?
MR HUGO ADDRESSES: Mr Chairman, we don't have any problem, I think that the matter that Mr Lamey has been referring to is the Nerston matter. We've already indicated in writing that we're prepared to accept this certificate, for our purposes, on face value and we don't dispute this and we're prepared to accept what he says in his affidavit, if that could facilitate the whole process. So that's been our attitude.
CHAIRPERSON: You mean the affidavit filed of record?
MR HUGO: Yes. And that would suffice for our purposes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hugo. Ms Patel?
MS PATEL ADDRESSES: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. It is my submission, if one looks at the applications of the rest of the applicants who we have present here, my respectful submission is that they give us a fairly full picture of what had in fact occurred there and my submission is that we will not be seriously prejudiced by the absence of Mr Willemse here today. But I'm in your hands as to the acceptability or otherwise of the letter that we have from Mr Willemse's psychiatrist, or is it a psychologist, I believe a Clinical Psychologist ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: It's a psychiatrist.
MS PATEL: Is it a psychiatrist. ... as to his condition and his inability to testify.
CHAIRPERSON: May I ask that then, you say his condition hasn't changed from the Nerston incident, as the psychiatric report refers to, not to this incident we are busying ourselves with, that in that event even though he doesn't appear, should the evidence of the other applicants be satisfactory in our opinion, we could also grant him amnesty? Are you suggesting that, or should that something crop up which we need his input, that we could delay our decision that he gives us something in writing in the form of an affidavit?
MS PATEL: I would request that your latter suggestion be adopted, that depending on what comes out in oral testimony here today, that if it's something material that he then be given an opportunity to perhaps file a further affidavit, if that is going to be an acceptable way of dealing with it.
CHAIRPERSON: Could we for the moment, gentlemen and lady, approach it in this fashion, that we hear the other applicants and revisit this report when we come to his actual application, obviously depending on what the other applicants would have said before us?
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, I go along with that, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo. Thank you very much.
Should we take it from the bundle before us that Mr de Kock would start?
MR HUGO: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, we're in the habit of starting first now.
CHAIRPERSON: No, I'll rather have him sworn in first. That oath he took this morning is not applicable here.
EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: (sworn states)
ADV BOSMAN: That applicant is properly sworn, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Advocate Bosman. Mr Hugo?
EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr de Kock, you're the applicant in this matter known as the amnesty application in the incident which is known as the Swedish International Development Agency, is that correct?
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR HUGO: Your application appears in this bundle from page 2 up until 13 and more specifically where you deal with the details of this incident on page 7, is that correct?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
MR HUGO: And you confirm the truthfulness and the correctness thereof as you have set it out and that you will furnish further details during your oral evidence, is that correct?
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HUGO: You then ask that this Committee takes note of the affidavit that you made for the political background, political motives, your career and also a further affidavit that you submitted concerning the creation of Vlakplaas and the activities of Vlakplaas.
MR DE KOCK: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR HUGO: Then to get close to the incident itself, you say that you received information from Glory Sedibe that led to this incident. Glory Sedibe - I'm just leading you concerning the introductory aspect, was one of the askaris that was abducted by Vlakplaas and started working for the South African Police.
MR DE KOCK: That is correct.
MR HUGO: What is the nature of the information that he gave you after he started working for the South African Police? That is now concerning Sida's activities.
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, from the information that he provided it seems that Sida is a pay-point for the ANC, not only for the ANC, also for refugees, but a lot of the ANC members came from the refugee ranks and amongst others, payments were made to ANC people living in Swaziland and that the documentation was held in files as well as registers in this building in Manzini.
MR HUGO: And did you get the impression that Sida was indeed a supporter of the ANC and the freedom movement?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, it was a well-known fact that the Norwegian countries were large supporters of the ANC and then Sweden particularly.
MR HUGO: Very well. Now on the strength of the information that he gave you, you then decided to launch an operation. What was done then?
MR DE KOCK: Mr Chairperson, I discussed the situation with Mr Pienaar, who was then the Head of the Security Branch at Piet Retief and we came to a decision that the sooner we get these documents the better and on a specific evening, when we received this information, myself and some of my members and also members of the Eastern Transvaal crossed the border and we broke into this building ...(intervention)
MR HUGO: Before we get to the details of that, what did you want to achieve by collecting these documents?
MR DE KOCK: Mr Chairperson, it would have been amongst others that we would have been able to identify how many ANC members were still in Swaziland, members who we do not know of and it would have led to a supplementary contribution to the files that we already had. The refugees from South Africa to Swaziland, we would have been able to bring out files up to date and we would have been able to find out how the Swedish International Development Agency was operated in terms of the refugees and operated in supporting them.
MR HUGO: Very well. In co-operation with Mr Pienaar you then decided to launch this operation. Mr Pienaar's rank at that stage?
MR DE KOCK: He was a Warrant Officer.
MR HUGO: And your own rank?
MR DE KOCK: I think I was a Captain or a Major, Chairperson.
MR HUGO: Very well. Who were the other people who formed part of this operation?
MR DE KOCK: From my ranks it was Mr Schutte, Mr Willemse and I see Mr Fourie is here, I could not recall Mr Bosch and Mr Fourie, and I think there were one or two other members. I cannot recall their names. And then from the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch it was Mr Pienaar and I think there were two or three members from the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch, because they had a lot of interest in these documents because it fell within their district.
MR HUGO: You then came together and you planned this operation, what did this operation entail?
MR DE KOCK: Mr Chairperson, that we will wait in Manzini for a proper time, it would have been the evening when the activities on the street would allow us to break into the offices. I would mention that the offices are about a block and a half away from the Manzini Police Station, we were therefore very careful in order to prevent trouble from arising.
We then that evening, or later that evening, that was approximately 8 or 9 o'clock, I would say between 8 and 10 o'clock that evening we then succeeded in finding the right time to enter the building. We broke down the door and we gathered as many documents and files as we could in that short period of time that we gave ourselves. I think there was a photocopier machine, it was damaged so that it could not be used by the organisation and we then left.
MR HUGO: Very well. Did you go through the border post legally, or did you make use of illegal passports?
MR DE KOCK: No, we made use of illegal passports and if I can recall, we crossed the border, not through a normal border post, we again crossed the border at an illegal post.
MR HUGO: Did you have a weapon with you?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, some of the members did have weapons, not all of them had but those who broke in did have weapons with them.
MR HUGO: Very well. When you arrived at the building approximately 8 o'clock that evening, were there other people in the building?
MR DE KOCK: No, Mr Chairperson, but while we broke in two people arrived, it was a man and a woman and they were detained there and as far as my knowledge goes, they were not assaulted, but they were held there. After we left they probably went to the police, I do not know, but we were already gone at that stage.
MR HUGO: Very well. Can you just give us more detail concerning the goods that you took and what was damaged. You've already said that you took documents, and what else did you "seize"?
MR DE KOCK: There were a lot of files, if I'm correct they were plastic and carton files with documentation and photographs, then there were also ordinary photographs as you find, normal photographs. There were a lot of them. There were registers, accounting registers where amounts had been paid out to people. There were quite a few of the registers and we also took all of them. There were more registers that we could deal with, but we took what we could in that short period of time.
MR HUGO: And the photographs?
MR DE KOCK: We also took photographs. There were photographs in containers, but there were a large amount of photographs.
MR HUGO: What was the purpose of taking the photographs?
MR DE KOCK: Mr Chairperson, that was for identification. We could give these to the askaris for the identification of refugees or ANC members.
MR HUGO: Very well. Maybe I should have asked you this before, but this operation, was this done with your own discretion or did you get authorisation before?
MR DE KOCK: I did it on my own discretion, yes.
MR HUGO: Very well. What did you do with the documentation?
MR DE KOCK: Mr Chairperson, the files, the photographs, were dropped off at the Piet Retief Security Branch in Mr Pienaar's office and his members then started going through them and categorising all the documentation.
MR HUGO: Did you at any stage inform your immediate Commander?
MR DE KOCK: I later informed Brig Schoon, He did have knowledge of this, he did tell me that Col Visser of Middelburg was very unhappy about this, that we went in and did not inform him, but I took the responsibility for it.
MR HUGO: Can you recall if some of these photographs were given to askaris for identification?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Piet Retief Security Branch did identify people, I do not know how many, but they did go through all the photographs with the askaris.
MR HUGO: You then apply for amnesty for this operation and for the specific incidents that we will inform them at a later stage.
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, and where we held or detained the man and woman at the scene, that it can be seen as abduction.
MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey, any cross-examination?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr de Kock, just one or two aspects. You've already referred to the run-up of the operation, it was information that was received from Mr Sedibe.
MR DE KOCK: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Is it true that in that period of time there was a group of people from Vlakplaas that were active and that they assisted the Piet Retief Security Branch?
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: There was a contingent of Vlakplaas people with askaris, who assisted in that area and that with the Sedibe abduction there were certain black members present?
MR DE KOCK: Yes.
MR LAMEY: That evening when you launched this operation, were there any black members, askaris, involved?
MR DE KOCK: I cannot recall any black members who were involved, I do know that we did have radio equipment with us, somebody had to observe the police station while we were busy, in order for us to get out safely. I cannot recall any black members accompanying us.
MR LAMEY: Is it also correct that the breaking in of the house and the removing of the files was done very quickly, because there was a police station close by?
MR DE KOCK: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Then Mr Fourie says that some of the black workers who were found in the building made a lot of noise and a few slaps were dealt out and he amongst others, was one of the people who slapped them. He cannot recall who the other person was, just to silence them and they immediately became quiet. But Mr Fourie says that he's not quite sure if you were in the position to observe it, because he thinks that you were at that time breaking the door down.
MR DE KOCK: When I left there, at that stage I had a large pile of files in my arms and there as a woman who walked past me and asked me in an indigenous language what I was doing, she then saw the pistol in my hand, because I still had it in my hand, then started shouting and ran down the street and I do not think that anybody would have been able to catch her, but it could be that there were other people who walked past, who then met up with Mr Fourie and were then dealt with in such a way. I did not observe any assaults at that stage, I was preoccupied at that stage.
MR LAMEY: Mr Bosch says that he also did not observe that and he is one of the other applicants whom I represent. Very well. Just one last aspect, it is Mr Fourie's recollection that some of the floppy disks of the computers were removed.
MR DE KOCK: Mr Chairperson, that is possible, but I cannot recall that, but we took what we could and I will accept it as such.
MR LAMEY: Very well. Can you recall that Mr Fourie testified that Paul van Dyk and Lappies Labuschagne from the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch were both present?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, I will accept it, because can vaguely recall, I was not quite sure when I wrote this application ...(intervention)
MR LAMEY: Especially the area in Swaziland where the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch - you've already said it, but also where Mr Lappies Labuschagne operated, is that correct?
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lamey. Ms Patel?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
Mr de Kock, given that the aim of this operation was simply to break in and search the premises and take documents, were there any specific instructions given to your operatives, should they come across women as they had in the passage, or would that have been left to their discretion?
MR DE KOCK: It would have been left to their discretion, but there were no, at any time an instruction given or that we foresaw that we will shoot. The weapons that we took was that if we met up with any ANC members, we would have used it, or we would have used it to detain the people in order to get away, but to kill or to shoot, no.
MS PATEL: Okay. How did you know that you wouldn't encounter people in the offices at the time that you broke in?
MR DE KOCK: Mr Chairperson, at various opportunities we drove past this building, there was no movement inside the building, there's a ground level and then there was a first floor and the offices were on the first floor. There were no people in the offices. There was also not a night guard or watchman ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: At the proposed time you would attack or storm the house, at the time where you would break in and take the documents away, is that the time when you were driving past?
MR DE KOCK: It would have been a case where it would have been an operation with the minimum risk.
MS PATEL: And just for sake of completeness, the man and woman that were found on the premises, you say they were not assaulted, what exactly was done to them?
MR DE KOCK: Nothing Mr Chairperson, they stood in a corner in that passage between the door and the end of the wall, I think it was a distance of five to six metres, they stood against the wall with their faces turned towards it and there they stood.
MS PATEL: Alright. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Bosman?
ADV BOSMAN: Thanks Chairperson.
Mr de Kock, maybe I did not hear you, but the weapons that you had, were they legal weapons or illegal weapons?
MR DE KOCK: They were illegal weapons. They also had silencers on them.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you. Did you have the opportunity to read through Mr Willemse's affidavit?
MR DE KOCK: Mr Chairperson, I did not read it, I just testified about what I know.
ADV BOSMAN: Can you just look at page 24 of the bundle, paragraph 17.1, it is very short. Can you just look at it and tell us if you agree with everything that appears in that paragraph.
MR DE KOCK: Yes, I can agree with that.
ADV BOSMAN: Can you recall if you gave Mr Willemse any specific instructions?
MR DE KOCK: I would have given him instructions, I just cannot recall the nature of it or what his role was. I assume that he was in an observation position or post.
ADV BOSMAN: Are you in a position to say if Mr Willemse followed the instructions that were given to him?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, he acted within the instructions that were given to him and he was not involved in any carrying out of files or the breaking down of the door.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Advocate Bosman. Advocate Sandi?
ADV SANDI: I don't have a question to ask, Chairman, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Just one point, Mr de Kock, you just referred to the breaking down of the door, could you give us details how you broke down the door, was it completely broken down or you used some means to partly break it down and enter? What was the position?
MR DE KOCK: Mr Chairperson, I had a short axe, it was a hand-held axe of which the handle had a very sharp edge, so you can use that as a lever or you can then use the front part to chop and it was used to force open the lock. It was not that I kicked open the door and that the door was on the ground.
CHAIRPERSON: Now when you encountered these two women, did you know the identity, because partly you wanted to establish the number of ANC people in Swaziland through this documentation? Do you have an idea who these women were, or were they questioned who they were?
MR DE KOCK: No, Mr Chairperson, we did not ask them any questions, it was a question that they met up with us, it was unexpected, we spoke English to them, we demanded that they turn their faces towards the wall and remain there. We were not there to interrogate, it was only to break in.
CHAIRPERSON: I heard you previously when I put a question to you, that you drove there a number of times, at the hour you would go in and seize the documents, was it also your reconnaissance that at such hours the building was deserted or the house was deserted?
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, the building itself was deserted, there was no guard, our largest problem was the movement on the street. We did not want to go when it was very quiet, otherwise we would stand out and we did not want to do it when it was too busy, otherwise it would draw attention. So we had to look at the movement of the public in that area on the streets.
CHAIRPERSON: Now this axe you have described to us, wouldn't it make a noise, since the police station was not very far from the building?
MR DE KOCK: There where we broke the door it would have made a noise, yes, but we kept this noise to a minimum, it would not have, or the policemen would not have been able to hear it. But we do not know who of the public that you do not see notice something and go and report it that 'I saw people who looked suspicious' or 'something that didn't look normal,' and it was just a precaution that we had a guard looking out for us.
CHAIRPERSON: Glory Sedibe who turned and worked for the South African Police, how long before this incident did he work for the South African Police?
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I think that at that stage he was still being detained in Piet Retief. I am speaking under correction, I would have to rely upon Mr Fourie in this regard, but it was quite shortly after his escape from the prison. But as I recall, he was still under detention in Piet Retief at that stage.
CHAIRPERSON: And he carried personal knowledge which was somewhat fresh about the goings of this house in Manzini?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Hugo, any re-examination emanating from the questions asked this far?
MR HUGO: No re-examination thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr de Kock, you are excused.
MR DE KOCK: Thank you, Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Are you leading any further evidence, Mr Hugo?
MR HUGO: No further evidence, thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lamey?
MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson, I call applicant Fourie.
