MR MOERANE: With the Chairperson's permission, may I call Dr Sibongiseni Dlomo?
SIBONGISENI MAXWELL DLOMO: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Dlomo, how old are you?
MR DLOMO: I'm 40 years.
MR MOERANE: And where do you reside?
MR DLOMO: In Newcastle.
MR MOERANE: And what's your occupation?
MR DLOMO: I am a medical practitioner but also my daily activities involve me as a mayor of that town.
MR MOERANE: Mayor of which particular area?
MR DLOMO: Newcastle.
MR MOERANE: Mayor of Newcastle?
MR DLOMO: Yes.
MR MOERANE: I see. Well we should call you Your Worship.
Dr Dlomo, you were an accused person in the matter of the State vs Buthelezi and eleven others before his Lordship Mr Justic Tyrian?
MR DLOMO: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: And you were charged with several offences some of which included being a member of the African National Congress since about November 1984?
MR DLOMO: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: And also taking accused number 3 in that case who was Dr Ramlakan to accused number 5 who was Mr Jude Francis and a certain person by the name of Rev - I beg your pardon I'm on the wrong page, it's on page 37 of bundle 2, paragraph 13. It was alleged that in about August 1985 you trained accused number 12 in that case who was Vosmusi Wesley Mashlobo and Frank Malunga at Alan Taylor residence in the use of limpet mines, explosives and hand grenades?
MR DLOMO: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: It was also alleged that in about September 1985 you went to Ngwavuma where you fetched three trained members of the ANC including accused number 4, that was Sibosiso Robert Ndlandsi, also known as Mbongwa, also known as Sihle?
MR DLOMO: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: And brought them to the Durban area?
MR DLOMO: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: Yes. You were convicted of terrorism relating to the incidents that I have mentioned?
MR DLOMO: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: You were also charged and convicted on possession of explosives and explosive devices with the intention to use them to commit acts of violence in furtherance of the aims of the African National Congress to overthrow the State authority in the Republic?
MR DLOMO: Yes.
MR MOERANE: In particular it was alleged and it was found to have been proved that you established or assisted in establishing a dead letter box near Umhlazi, that you pointed out an area below the Executive Hotel in Umhlazi on the 2nd January 1986 as the result of which pointing out a bag containing explosives and explosive devices was discovered in that area?
MR DLOMO: That is also correct.
MR MOERANE: And you were charged with, it was established at your trial, that you had conspired with the African National Congress and members of the African National Congress including Mr Sibosiso Robert Ndlandsi also known as Mbongwa and a witness B who gave evidence in that trial and one Lulamele Khatle who refused to give evidence in that trial and one Zinto Cele to bring about the commission of acts of violence and to bring about acts that I referred to in paragraph (ii) of the Section 54 of the Terrorism Act to aid in bringing about such acts in pursuance of the aims of the African National Congress to overthrow the State authority in the Republic?
MR DLOMO: Yes, I was convicted of those activities.
MR MOERANE: Yes and what sort of sentence did you receive?
MR DLOMO: I received 10 years imprisonment.
MR MOERANE: And how much of that sentence did you serve?
MR DLOMO: I served effectively four and a half but together with the incarceration during Section 29 it was about 6 years.
MR MOERANE: So in all you spent in detention about six years, four and a half of which were in serving your sentence?
MR DLOMO: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: Yes. Now you are asking for amnesty to be granted to you in respect of those offences for which you are convicted and you were sentenced?
MR DLOMO: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: Why did you commit those offences?
MR DLOMO: I had prepared myself to be a member of the African National Congress and Umkhonto weSizwe and I had then made myself available for any other expectations out of me from the ANC as a contribution towards our liberation. So whatever that was instructed of me to do as a disciplined cadre of the movement, I decided to participate in it.
MR MOERANE: So you performed these acts firstly as a member of the African National Congress and in furtherance of the aims and objectives of the African National Congress?
MR DLOMO: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: And briefly what were those aims and objectives?
MR DLOMO: I don't want to bore the Committee but my dear comrade, Ramlakan, has fully outlined some of them which was to overthrow the State by all means available to our disposal including violent activities.
MR MOERANE: And what have you established after overthrowing the State by the means you have described?
MR DLOMO: The policies of the ANC have put it very clearly, outlining a non-sexist, democratic and non-racial South Africa that we were fighting for.
MR MOERANE: I see. So in short, are you saying that you were engaged in a war of liberation?
MR DLOMO: My only activities in all this was inspired by the policies of the ANC which was actually the champion of that type of struggle.
MR MOERANE: Yes, to overthrow the apartheid regime that was in place at the time?
MR DLOMO: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: Now did you derive any benefit, financial or otherwise from your acts?
MR DLOMO: No.
MR MOERANE: I know you've said it, but just for emphasis, do you associate yourself with the political objectives mentioned by Dr Ramlakan?
MR DLOMO: Absolutely correct, yes.
MR MOERANE: Now I'd like to refer you to bundle 1 and the number of incidents mentioned therein.
MR DLOMO: These are incidents 8, 9, 10 and 11.
8 being the explosion of the 27th September 1985 at Durban OK Bazaars, West Street.
9 being an explosion at Game Discount World of a limpet
mine on the same day.
10 being an explosion at Spar Foodliner, West Street, Durban, on the same day.
And 11 being an explosion at Checkers, Smith Street, Durban, on the same day.
What can you tell the Committee about your possible role in these incidents?
MR DLOMO: Somewhere in 1985 I was given the responsibility of being part of a command structure of the MK activities in and around Durban. Among other responsibilities and specifically some of my responsibilities then was to service units, some of the MK units that were operatives in and around Durban and my contact with those units was to supply them with explosives material and some other weapons that would be used to carry out the activities in and around Durban. I did not have, however, an opportunity or a chance to instruct units as of when and where to place or put bombs but I was responsible for supplying most of the units with the explosives, that whenever the opportunity or the instruction had come to them to respond or to actually carry out operations then they will have enough supplies in their DLBs.
So with the incidents that are listed here as part of the command structure, I came to learn about them after they had taken place which was like my dear comrade, Veejay, mentioned, need to know arrangement. I needed to know that aspect that all the units I was responsible for had enough material should they be required at any given stage to respond or to use those materials but did not have to be instructed as to when and how to place those bombs.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, do I understand from this that you were supplying explosives for them to put into the DLBs and then they could use them as they thought fit?
MR DLOMO: As they fit or and as the instruction would come, when to use them and where to use them.
CHAIRPERSON: It wouldn't come from you?
MR DLOMO: Yes.
MR MOERANE: So may I conclude or infer from that, therefore that you are actually not certain whether or not limpet mines supplied by you were used in these four incidents on the 27th September 1985?
MR DLOMO: Yes, I can all for certain say that those were the limpet mines that I'd supplied.
MR MOERANE: It is possible that they might be those that you had supplied?
MR DLOMO: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: And is it on that basis that you are applying for amnesty for?
MR DLOMO: That is correct, just in case.
MR MOERANE: Yes. Now let's deal with incident 12, the explosion at the Executive Hotel, Umhlazi, on the 28th September 1985. Do you have anything to say about that?
MR DLOMO: Yes. This incident of Executive Hotel was carried by a unit that was headed by its commander, Zinto Cele, and that, like all other units, was an instruction that came from other responsible commanders that we're dealing with went to operate. I also had my name appearing there possibly because it could have happened that the limpet mine that was used there could have been one of those limpet mines that I continuously supplied to other units including the unit of Zinto Cele and two of the other operatives that were with him.
MR MOERANE: Yes, but you were not involved in that particular operation?
MR DLOMO: Yes, I was not.
MR MOERANE: Yes. And finally, let's deal with the incident 13, Grosvenor Girls School incident. What can you tell the learned Committee about that incident?
MR DLOMO: Like all the explosions and operations in and around Durban, as part of the command structure, I later learned about some of them after they had taken place. This operation was actually carried on by our late comrade, comrade Zinto Cele, Mandla Dimande and one of the other injured persons who survived, Sibosiso Mazibuko. I also have my name appearing there possibly on the basis that Zinto Cele as the commander of that unit was in touch with me on other issues and possibly received among other things limpet mines from me and could have used one of those in that incident too.
MR MOERANE: Yes and you confirm that the persons mentioned on page 6, under that incident, who are the persons referred to in the evidence of Dr Ramlakan?
MR DLOMO: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: Zinto Cele, Sibosiso Mazibuko and Mandla Nkosi Dimande?
MR DLOMO: That is correct.
MR MOERANE: Yes. Yes, I see your name is often mentioned under incident 16, that's the Amanzimtoti explosion on the Sanlam Shopping Centre. Firstly, were you involved in that operation?
MR DLOMO: No.
MR MOERANE: Did you subsequently learn certain things about that particular operation?
MR DLOMO: Please tell the learned Committee?
MR MOERANE: I learnt later that the bomb that exploded at the Amanzimtoti Sanlam Shopping Centre was actually put by our late comrade, Comrade Zondo.
MR MOERANE: That's Andrew Zondo?
MR DLOMO: Andrew Zondo, yes. And like all operatives in and around area, I had not taken that responsibility of instructing or giving them instructions of where to place bombs.
MR MOERANE: Yes.
MR DLOMO: But possibly, the other explanation why my name is appearing as an applicant here is because Andrew is mentioned and I admit to have brought Comrade Andrew Zondo from the borders of this country next to Swaziland and brought him to the Durban area and therefore took responsibility for his welfare and logistics and other logistics but the other instructions of his daily duties in and around this part of the world, I was not engaged in that.
MR MOERANE: When did you transport Mr Zondo from the border, South African border with Swaziland?
MR DLOMO: I cannot be certain, if it is not late in October, it must be very early in November.
MR MOERANE: Yes. Did you furnish Mr Zondo with any explosives or explosive devices?
MR DLOMO: No, I was not servicing him in that regard, he did not receive, he could have probably received it from some of the units if this is the limpet mine that had been brought from me. Could have been from one of the units but not specifically me giving Zondo a limpet mine.
MR MOERANE: I see and you say you are not servicing his unit?
MR DLOMO: No, I was servicing units but I was not servicing senior ANC combatant like Andrew Zondo, they did not - they had not been receiving material so I suppose I would imagine it was units that were supplying. His responsibility was to come inside the country and probably do other things to assist with the training but not to be - it was not a unit as such that would be serviced by myself, explosives.
MR MOERANE: I see. Chairperson, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Sir, in relation to any of the incidents for which you now apply did you have any contact in relation to those incidents with the applicant, Lalla, Raymond Lalla?
MR DLOMO: No.
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Mr Dlomo, do you know the applicant Thuso Tshika?
MR DLOMO: Yes.
MS MOHAMED: Now in relation to your application for amnesty for incident number 9 which is the explosion at Game, did you have any contact with Mr Tshika?
MR DLOMO: In relation to the bomb?
MS MOHAMED: At Game, yes.
MR DLOMO: Not in that specific way but Mr Tshika was one of the operatives in a particular unit. I would not have known him that much personally but I would have been liaising with his commander about other MK activities in and around our part of the country but I would not then be instructed even to the units to place bombs at a particular area. I was in touch with his commander and I also knew him.
MS MOHAMED: Okay, can you just tell us who his commander was?
MR DLOMO: The commander of that unit was Qandam Msomi.
MS MOHAMED: Thank you very much. Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED
MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Chairperson. Thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson. Dr Dlomo, I'm sorry to - I just want to go back a little bit and clarify something with you with regard to incidents 12, 13 and 16. I'm just a little confused by your testimony and I just want to clear this up if you allow me.
Did I understand you to say you may have supplied those units with ordinance or explosives that would have been used?
MR DLOMO: No, I didn't say that. I said that they might have used the limpet mines or the other explosives that I had supplied. I had supplied them with material.
MR LAX: Yes, no that's precisely what I did understand. I just put it in a different way, I put it more positively. You supplied those units, they may have used them in those incidents?
MR DLOMO: Correct.
MR LAX: What is the difference then between 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12, 13? Because to me you supplied units, you didn't know what they were going to do with them, you are claiming amnesty for 8, 9, 10 and 11 because you are presuming that the possibility exists that those were explosives supplied by you. You're not applying for 12 and 13 but you are presuming that those are also explosives that you supplied?
MR MOERANE: I beg the Chairperson's pardon. He is applying for 12 and 13.
MR LAX: I beg your pardon, sorry. Thank you for that correction. That clarifies it for me, I just got the impression that he wasn't applying for those.
MR MOERANE: They're only separated because the four occurred on one day, on the 27th September.
MR LAX: No, fair enough. In that case there's no problem.
MR DLOMO: ...(inaudible)
MR LAX: Yes but you've made that clear that with regard to 16, the limpet mine used in 16 may have been one that you had supplied to a unit but you didn't supply it to Mr Zondo. That's what you're saying?
MR DLOMO: That is correct.
MR LAX: Again I'm slightly puzzled. If it was one that you did possibly supply and you foresaw that it would be used in some way or other, why are you hesitant to apply for amnesty for that if it may have been the one that you used in the same level of possibility?
MR DLOMO: No, I did not hesitate. I take full responsibility of all the units, the explosives that they had, that they could have used them at any given time and when the instruction came.
MR LAX: Yes.
MR DLOMO: So too if this limpet that was used at Amanzimtoti had been given Andrew Zondo by one of the units that I could have serviced, that's what I'm saying. I'm leaving that open possibility, I'm not denying application for but I was just expressing my involvement, that I was not directly involved in this incident of Amanzimtoti ...(indistinct), possibly the limpet mine used there could have been one of those that had been given any of the other units.
MR LAX: Yes, you see what I didn't understand was that it was specifically a matter which you weren't applying for and I don't see the difference between it and the other matters because in all of them, in all of them you had no personal knowledge of what would happen to the explosive. You didn't issue any instructions yourself but you did supply the ordinance?
MR DLOMO: Yes. Maybe I should also share this information that is actually being explained very easily when you look at incident 8, 9, 10, 11, that all of them took place on one day and obviously within ten minutes of each other so no matter how good I could have been, it could not have been possible, it was all different units that we were responsible for that at different places almost virtually the same time. So it was actually then to explain further on that all these other ones that could have taken place, possibly limpet mines that had been supplied by me to those various units, could have been used for those incidents including the incident on 16.
MR LAX: Yes. Perhaps this is something we can clear up in argument in due course.
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE: Dr Dlomo, I got the impression that you make a distinction between units which were involved or may have been involved in incidents 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 on the one hand and 16, the Amanzimtoti incident. Is that the impression that I have correct?
MR DLOMO: You see when you read or you get the information on incident 16 it talks about Andrew Zondo who got a limpet from a Mofokeng. That was not known to me so if then this was proven in court that he actually got a limpet mine from Mr Mofokeng then he probably got it from someone I have never known or have seen before and that is why in fact incident 16 is that very different from the other incidents that I have mentioned before.
MR MOERANE: I see. So you are going here by the allegation that has been put with regard to incident 16 that Tallman gave Zondo instructions to retaliate for the Maseru Raid between 21st and 23rd December. Zondo selected a target in Amanzimtoti, Zondo got a limpet mine from Mofokeng. So are you saying that if in fact it is true, that he obtained the limpet mine from Mofokeng then it was not from your supply?
MR DLOMO: Absolutely correct.
MR MOERANE: I see. Thank you Chairperson. No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MOERANE: May the applicant be excused? Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
