CHAIRPERSON: The system is now in order and I've also been requested to start from scratch again because what we said previously didn't come through, so I'll just introduce the Panel. On my left is Adv Sibongile Sigodi, a member of the Amnesty Committee. She comes from Port Elizabeth. On my right is Acting-Judge Chris de Jager, also a member of the Amnesty Committee, he comes from Pretoria and I am Selwyn Miller, I'm a Judge and I come from Umtata. Mr Lamey if I could ask you again please to place yourself on record.
MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman. The surname is Lamey, I'm from the firm Rooth and Wessels and I represent the applicant, Mr Chris Mosiane in the two incidents that are before the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lamey.
MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson. Lyn Coleridge acting on behalf of Mr Rodney Toka. Chairperson I just want to place on record all the persons that have been notified in terms of being implicated in Mr Mosiane's two incidents. Simon Radebe, Eric Sefadi, Eric Maluleke, Col Prinsloo and Mr Eugene de Kock, Chairperson and then just the annexures that we've marked. Exhibit A, Chairperson, which is Mr Toka's statement and then Exhibit B, which is a Request for Further Particulars from Mr Mosiane with his reply thereto and then Chairperson, I'd like to place on record that it's my instructions that we are not opposing Mr Mosiane's amnesty application. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Coleridge.
CHRISTOPHER MOSIANE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey.
MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman.
EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Mosiane in this hearing before this Committee you are an applicant in two incidents, namely the kidnapping of a person known as MK Bomber to you and then also a house raid at Mabopane and the kidnapping of an unknown person there, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Initially you completed an amnesty form, which is in the bundle before the Committee, page 1 to page 7, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And attached to that first application of yours was a statement written out by yourself, of which an extract we find from page 17 up to page 34 of the bundle before the Committee, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Then a typed copy was also prepared relating to that written statement of yours, is that correct, which we find from page 8 of the bundle up to and including page 15 of the bundle, is that correct?
MR SEXWALE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: While we're at this first application, Mr Mosiane, is it correct that short particulars of your involvement in these two incident appear from page 14 and 15 of the bundle before the Committee, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And then after you had obtained legal representation, a supplemented application was prepared, which we find from page 37 of the bundle, that is the form up to and including page 41 and then the relevant extract relating to this incident of the kidnapping of MK Bomber, page 48 up to page 50 and the kidnapping of the unknown person, page 50 up to page 53, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now Mr Mosiane, in your first application as well as in your supplemented application, you have given background relating to you becoming eventually a member of Vlakplaas and as such then also a member of the erstwhile Security Police, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Is it correct, Mr Mosiane, we're ...(indistinct - background noise) before the Committee, we're not going into all the detail, but the crux of this was that you were abducted at a certain stage from Swaziland before you became a member of Vlakplaas. Before that you were yourself a member of the ANC's Military Wing, Umkhonto weSizwe, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: The applications for amnesty by the persons who abducted you from Swaziland were also heard previously in which you also participated in that hearing as a victim, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now coming from that background and after you became involved with the Security Police, you were referred - a persons such as yourself were called askaris, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is so.
MR LAMEY: And it was in that capacity as an askari that you got involved with these two incidents that are before the Committee?
MR MOSIANE: That is so.
MR LAMEY: Now, also just to confirm a bit of the background, the operational workings of Vlakplaas were such that Units comprising of black permanent force members of Vlakplaas as well as askaris were often, with the approval of the Officer Commanding of Vlakplaas, sent out to assist other units, Security Branch units, mainly for the purpose of tracing the whereabouts and tracing MK members that might be in the country, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now at the time of the kidnapping of the person you know as MK Bomber, you were, you were, your unit comprising as you say on page 48 of the bundle, were assisting a unit of the Northern Transvaal Security Police under the command of Col Prinsloo, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now I want you to read out for the purposes of Mr Rodney Toka, who I believe also operated at the time with the pseudonym of Michael Bomber and who is present at the hearing, would you just read out what you have stated regarding this incident, his kidnapping, from page 48? I just want you, before you do that, you have said in your application, you couldn't recall the date, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now Mr Toka has, in the statement Exhibit A, said that he was arrested on the 13th of June 1998 by members of the Security Branch in Mamelodi. Could that date be correct, as far as you know?
MR MOSIANE: That could be true.
MR LAMEY: Would you please proceed and for the sake of the Committee as well as Mr Toka, read out the nature and particulars of this incident?
MR MOSIANE: This incident occurred during the same period when we were deployed in Mamelodi and attempted to obtain information from the sister of Pat Mahlangu.
MR LAMEY: Can I just stop you there? You also applied for amnesty relating to that incident that you referred to in paragraph 1, when you attempted to obtain information from the sister of Pat Mahlangu, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And that application has already been heard by another Committee, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Please proceed.
MR MOSIANE: Acting on Col Prinsloo's information, a unit from Vlakplaas comprising of Simon Radebe, Eric Sefadi, Tshabalala, Eric Maluleke and myself were ordered to patrol the streets of Mamelodi. Simon Radebe, as the Youth Commander, explained to all of us that we were to be on the lookout for a member of the underground unit of ANC. The suspect who was known to Simon, was called Bomber.
MR LAMEY: Now just a minute here. You're talking about a unit from Vlakplaas. You're in fact referring to that smaller unit of which Simon Radebe was the Section Leader at the time, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Please proceed further.
MR MOSIANE: Bomber was spotted by Simon and we arrested or kidnapped him, put him in the kombi and took him to Vlakplaas where he was interrogated for a short time. Later ...(intervention)
MR LAMEY: You say interrogated and tubed for a short time, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Yes. Did you participate in the interrogation or the tubing?
MR MOSIANE: I did not participate although I was present when it took place.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just for purposes of the record, when you refer to the tubing is that when - it's a form of torture really.
MR MOSIANE: It's a form of suffocation, yes, that's torture.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you put a rubber tube over the person's face to restrict breathing and then ask questions and release it and pull it back on, that sort of thing?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: But you were present when that happened, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: I was present when that happened.
MR LAMEY: Please proceed.
MR MOSIANE: Later, Simon, Col Eugene de Kock, Eric Sefadi and some white Security policemen continued interrogating him while awaiting the arrival of Col Prinsloo. We were then, that is myself and other askaris, asked to leave. I last saw the man locked in the showers at Vlakplaas.
MR LAMEY: Please proceed there.
MR MOSIANE: I never saw or heard of Bomber again. I don't know if he is still alive. Eric Sefadi and Simon Radebe had a strong bond, despite the fact that Eric was an askari while Simon was a policeman.
MR LAMEY: Ja. Can you just please proceed further?
MR MOSIANE: As far as I can recall, there were no physical injuries to him, he was interrogated and tubed for a short time at Vlakplaas. Simon Radebe and Eric Sefadi did the initial interrogation and tubing, which lasted for a short time. I don't know what happened further to this person.
MR LAMEY: If you talk about a short time, can you just tell us more or less how long did this take while you were present?
MR MOSIANE: It could have lasted for a period of between 20 to 25 minutes.
MR LAMEY: That is now before de Kock arrived, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now could you just also read further on page 50 regarding your statement about the political objective?
MR MOSIANE: Bomber was suspected of being one of the members of an underground MK unit, operating in Mamelodi. He was suspected to have been trained locally. It would appear that he was known to Simon Radebe.
MR LAMEY: Now where did you get this information from, that what you've stated there?
MR MOSIANE: The information was given to us by Simon Radebe. It was for this purpose that he was kidnapped, in order to ascertain information from him regarding his activities and the activities of other members of his unit on which information was supplied by Col Prinsloo of the Northern Transvaal Security Branch. I don't know whether any information was obtained from him, as I was not part of the interrogation team. The objectives were to trace MK operatives suspected of operating in Mamelodi. I acted under orders from my superiors.
MR LAMEY: Right and then your superiors you refer to there, you received your immediate orders from Simon Radebe, who was your leader, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: While doing street patrols in Mamelodi in order to trace these MK people, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And then as far as you know, Simon Radebe acted under orders of Col de Kock, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And you also, as far as you know, the request came from Northern Transvaal Security Branch to assist him with the patrolling in the streets of Mamelodi and tracing of members of the MK unit, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now, before we proceed further with the Request for Further Particulars that were asked, how exactly did it happen? How as MK Bomber kidnapped? Can you just explain that, what is your recollection, how did you manage to kidnap him, or how did it happen?
MR MOSIANE: It was during the day, I cannot recall the exact date, during the day but the day that falls within working days of the week, it wasn't a weekend and we were patrolling in Mamelodi on a lookout for a man I did not know, driving around Mamelodi when suddenly Simon Radebe stopped the kombi, forcing an unknown person to me who was walking leisurely on the pavement, forcing him towards the fence with the car and exclaiming: "This is the man, this is the man" The kombi was stopped at that time. He opened up his door and we did the same, from one side of the door, because we were seated in the passenger compartment of the kombi. We went out. Bomber was hastily dragged into the car and driven to Vlakplaas.
MR LAMEY: So did you get to know his name, MK Bomber, subsequent to that, not before that?
MR MOSIANE: Before to that I knew we were looking for a man by the name of Bomber, but I did not know his identity, I couldn't identify the man.
MR LAMEY: Okay. Alright, you didn't know the man personally to identify him.
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now Chairman, I'm coming now to Exhibit A.
MR LAX: The Request for Further Particulars and the Response thereto.
MR LAMEY: Yes. Now I want you - is it correct Mr Mosiane that this answer to the Request for Further Particulars you supplied in consultation with your legal representative, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And after consultation with him, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now let us just look at the first question. The question was, what information was given to them by Col Prinsloo? Now could you just read that out, paragraph 1.1?
MR MOSIANE: Applicant received his instructions to accompany the unit to look for the person called Bomber from Simon Radebe. Applicant assumed that Radebe must have been given some information by Prinsloo, or instructions, as they all fell under the command of Prinsloo at the time when the unit was working in Mamelodi, assisting the Northern Transvaal Security Branch.
MR LAMEY: Do you confirm that to be correct, in answer to that question 1.1?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Let's go to the next question.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Is it really necessary to go through all the questions, or could he confirm the contents of this?
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, if it pleases you, we can just confirm that, it is actually merely for the sake of the victim that we're doing that. I've been told by the Evidence Leader that ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: If you feel there are certain particulars that he wishes to emphasise, be free to do so.
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, I'm sure he also has a copy. Mr Mosiane is it correct that you have had an opportunity to go again through these questions and the answer, is that correct, which is before the Committee and do you confirm that that is, to the best of your belief, true and correct in answer to the questions insofar as you are able to furnish particulars to the questions?
MR MOSIANE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, I think that is then the evidence-in-chief relating to this incident.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lamey. Just before I ask Ms Coleridge, Mr Mosiane, did you personally assist in dragging Mr Toka into the kombi, or were you just a witness standing by?
MR MOSIANE: I cannot recall if I assisted in dragging him to the car because already Simon had him by the cuff of his shirt then, by the collar of his shirt then and holding on to his trousers belt and he showed him into the car.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Ms Coleridge, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?
MS COLERIDGE: Yes, thank you Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE: Mr Mosiane, just in relation to Simon Radebe, do you know how he came to know about Mr Toka?
MR MOSIANE: No, I don't know but I believe he must have received information from either Col Prinsloo or de Kock.
CHAIRPERSON: I mean that information, it seems from your evidence that he actually knew Mr Toka, that he could identify him from a number of people walking on the pavement, so he must have had some personal knowledge of Mr Toka.
MR MOSIANE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: But you don't know where he gets that personal knowledge, where he had met Mr Toka before this incident, or had seen him before the incident?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS COLERIDGE: And then I just want to place Mr Toka's version which just slightly differs to you in relation to the time when the incident occurred. We know that this happened a long time ago and your memory is not that accurate. He said that he was kidnapped at between 1.00 a.m. and 3.00 a.m. in the morning in a house in White City in Mamelodi and that's where he was kidnapped. Would you like to respond?
MR MOSIANE: If that is the version of Mr Toka, then we could not be speaking about the same person. If that is his version and he sticks to it and as clear as he recalls it, then we are not speaking of the same man.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Coleridge, Mr Mosiane were you involved in other abductions of this nature in your career as a member of Vlakplaas?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What are you saying? Are you saying it's possible that you're making a mistake about Mr Toka, or are you saying that Mr Toka must be mistaken about saying that he was arrested in the early hours of the morning in a house?
MR MOSIANE: The man who was arrested in the early hours of the morning, according to the time Mr Toka is saying, cannot be the very same Bomber I was involved in, in Mamelodi.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mosiane, you see Mr Toka sitting next to Ms Coleridge there. Can you recognise him now, you know the fact that you - because I notice in the statement that you read out, you said that you'd never seen him again and you didn't even know if he was alive. Well we know he's alive, he's here. When you take a look at the gentleman, can you recognise him?
MR MOSIANE: Excuse me Chairperson, I was involved in both kidnapping of Bomber and the unknown person.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, say maybe ...(intervention)
MR MOSIANE: The 1.00 a.m. to 3.00 a.m. in the morning, I was there, but I did not know that man, but I knew that the one arrested in Mamelodi during the day, during the day, was Bomber.
CHAIRPERSON: But that other one that you're talking about that you refer to as the kidnapping of an unknown person from a house, that was in Mabopane, was it? Where is White City?
MR MOSIANE: Yes, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Where is White City?
MR MOSIANE: It's somewhere in ...
CHAIRPERSON: Is White City Mamelodi?
MR MOSIANE: No, no, Mabopane.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it Mabopane? Sorry, I thought it was - somebody said White City, Mamelodi.
MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, it is White City in Mamelodi and then just in terms of the facts of the situation, this is MK Bomber, Chairperson, that's been identified and the other fact refers to my client, Chairperson, so he's not disputing any of the other facts.
CHAIRPERSON: The tubing and the interrogation etc.
MS COLERIDGE: And that he was taken to Vlakplaas and that Prinsloo was involved and so forth, so we are not disputing, it was just the time.
CHAIRPERSON: And the place.
MS COLERIDGE: That's correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Ms Coleridge.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So is it suggested perhaps that he's confused about the names, that Bomber was in fact kidnapped during the night and the other unknown person was kidnapped during the day?
MS COLERIDGE: That's possible. And we just want to place on record that after this incident had occurred, Mr Toka was then charged for 51 counts of various incidents, murder, attempted murder and malicious damage to property and so forth. He then managed to escape from prison and he was in exile since then in Zambia, Chairperson and that he came back to South Africa in 1994 with the new Government and so forth and that's all we'd like to place on record, Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MS COLERIDGE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey.
MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Mosiane, the Honourable Judge Miller, the Chairman, has asked you can you recognise Mr Bomber here, thinking back at the time. Do you recognise him, or can't you recognise him?
MR MOSIANE: Chairperson, I'm battling with my memory to put in the right position to recall the face. He's not the man we kidnapped during the day.
MR LAMEY: Well can I ask, is it possible ...(intervention)
MR MOSIANE: It is possible that he could be the man we kidnapped during the night, in the early hours of the morning, as he puts it.
MR LAMEY: Well, let me just get this clear.
CHAIRPERSON: I should imagine, sorry Mr Lamey, Mosiane that Mr Toka has a vivid memory of his being snatched from a house at 2 in the morning. It only happened to him once in his life, whereas you were involved in various abductions, so I think one can accept that he was in fact the person who was taken from the house in the night.
MR MOSIANE: I can never deny that Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Then just one more point. The person who was taken from the house, we know that Mr Toka hasn't denied that he was thereafter taken for interrogation, tubing etc. Did the same thing happen with the person who was captured during the day? They were both taken and ...
MR MOSIANE: That was standard procedure.
CHAIRPERSON: So, you are then prepared to accept that you've just confused Bomber with the person who was taken in during the day on the streets in Mamelodi, whereas in fact he was the person who was taken from a house in White City?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey.
MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson. I've got no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Judge de Jager, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you apply for both incidents or intend to apply for both incidents of kidnapping, the one in the street and the one in the house, or did you in fact forget about the one in the house?
MR MOSIANE: I applied for both incidents Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, we haven't - I think we may as well, before we deal with the other one, because we only dealt with the one in the street.
MR LAMEY: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So just carry on with the house raid at Mabopane and if you could clear up the place, if it's White City or Mabopane or Mamelodi.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Mosiane I think perhaps you should only - in this incident would you also - can you just clarify for us, that is the next ...(indistinct - background noise) incident that we're dealing with. You referred here to another operation
where you were involved with Simon Radebe, Eric Sefadi and yourself and you said you raided a house in Lebanon, near Mabopane and arrested the man, it was a night raid, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now you've heard now that White City has been referred to by Mr Bomber, do you know where White City is, or a place named White City?
MR MOSIANE: Yes, I am corrected now, I realise it was not in the place I stated here.
MR LAMEY: Could this reference be wrong here, to Mabopane?
MR MOSIANE: That could be wrong.
MR LAMEY: Could it have been in Mamelodi also?
MR MOSIANE: Yes.
MR LAMEY: But you're sure that there were two incidents that you kidnapped a person? The one was in the night.
MR MOSIANE: Yes.
MR LAMEY: The other one was during the day.
MR MOSIANE: Yes.
MR LAMEY: And in both instances this person was - well in the one case the person was taken to Vlakplaas, like you recall the one of Bomber, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: Yes.
MR LAMEY: And in this incident you say you drove the night to an open veld where you found Col Prinsloo and some of his men awaiting and you handed the person over there, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And it was after this person was handed over that he was put on the ground and he was assaulted?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And you were then ordered to go back to Vlakplaas, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just getting a little bit confused, but perhaps Ms Coleridge could assist us with the assistance of Mr Toka. From the first incident described by Mr Mosiane, he says that the person was abducted on the street and then he was taken to Vlakplaas and he was locked up in a shower and tubed and interrogated in a shower and then on page 51 he says that this person was abducted from a house and then handed over in the veld and the interrogation, you weren't present at the interrogation thereafter. Was Mr Toka locked up in a shower, or handed over in the veld?
MS COLERIDGE: No, Chairperson, he was taken to Vlakplaas where he was interrogated there, Chairperson.
MR TOKA: Just for the clarity of this Commission, I think on the first incident, he's referring to one of my comrades, Peter Maluleke, who was the actual person who was kidnapped during the day after leaving his house and when they kidnapped Peter Maluleke they were looking for this Bomber, that's what happened and on the second incident, the house one where he even said members of Col Prinsloo's office were there, that's the incident he might be referring to me, when I was collected from my house. So its that possibly the applicant in this matter was supposed to be- he didn't get his facts right because he was supposed to apply for amnesty for the kidnapping actually, of Peter Maluleke, because that's the incident that happened during the day, as I can recall quite well.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Toka, just for enlightening us, so we won't regard that as actually evidence, but we are in a Commission here and I don't think there's much in dispute or being opposed here, but we just want to clear the facts.
MR LAMEY: Yes, so it would appear according to the victim, Chairperson, they were in fact looking for MK Bomber, but they kidnapped someone else, a comrade or a colleague of his, that day when they grabbed him from the street, but in fact when they kidnapped Bomber it was at night from the house.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes and the person who was picked up in the street was Mr Peter Maluleke.
MR LAMEY: Could that very well be the position, Mr Mosiane?
MR MOSIANE: Yes, that could be.
MR LAMEY: Can you - alright. Chairperson, I don't know whether you wish me to clarify this further. Does - now having been mentioned, the name of Maluleke, do you recall such a name?
MR MOSIANE: No, I'm hearing the name for the first time in this Commission.
ADV SIGODI: Sorry, just to clarify this for me, did these kidnapping take place on the same day?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson.
ADV SIGODI: What was the interval?
MR MOSIANE: The first one to be kidnapped was Peter Maluleke.
ADV SIGODI: Yes, and then?
MR MOSIANE: And the second one to be kidnapped was Bomber, as he's already explained.
ADV SIGODI: Ja, I understand that but did this happen, one happen during the day and then you went to get Bomber during the night or was there an interval, because I couldn't find a place, I know you cannot recall the date, but did it happen on the same day?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson, there was an interval.
ADV SIGODI: How long was the interval?
MR MOSIANE: I cannot recall precisely how long the interval was.
ADV SIGODI: A week?
MR MOSIANE: Perhaps a week, or more, but certainly the first one to be kidnapped or abducted, was Peter Maluleke.
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, I don't think we can take it further. I think there is perhaps a logical explanation for the difference.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Any questions, Ms Coleridge?
MS COLERIDGE: No questions, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Any more questions Judge de Jager, Adv Sigodi? Thank you Mr Mosiane.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be leading any further evidence Mr Lamey?
MR LAMEY: No, I've got no further evidence on behalf of the applicant, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Coleridge?
MS COLERIDGE: No, Chairperson, that is our case.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lamey.
MR LAMEY IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I suppose you wish me to address you, just on the merits? Chairperson, yes it would appear that the possibility is that there could be a confusion. I think it's a bona fide one and I don't think the applicant has any intention not to reveal as far as best he can, the recollection of the true facts. We do have now the situation that possibly, regarding the first incident, another person was involved, a person likely to be by the name of Maluleke as referred to by Mr Toka. My submission is, with regard to both these incidents, that it was done under orders of Mr Mosiane who was at that time a member of the Security Forces as an askari and that the aim was to abduct, from the information that they received of MK, ANC people, specifically involved in MK activities in the area where the abduction took place and the purpose of the abduction, interrogation.
I would submit that the applicant qualifies for amnesty in both these incidents for kidnapping. Then although he didn't actively participate in any assault, he was a bystander and I submit that perhaps assault should also be included as an offence for which he seeks amnesty.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Would it be a kidnapping or was it a sort-of arrest, or...?
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, I - initially and has been my experience with also other applicants, that they be inclined to refer to the term arrest, but upon further consultation it would appear that the circumstances were such that the person was merely grabbed, he wasn't legally arrested in the strict sense of the word, like being informed of a charge, so I think it was merely grabbing of the person and taking away to Vlakplaas for interrogation, outside the boundaries of a normal arrest and where he was dealt with further in a way unknown to the applicant. I see from the statement of Mr Toka, I think, ...
JUDGE DE JAGER: Well he told us he was in fact charged with 51 charges.
MR LAMEY: He was charged later yes, but I think that the formal arrest was probably made after interrogation, but I do think that at the time it wasn't really within legal boundaries, Chairperson.
Chairperson and then any other delict that my be inferred from the facts. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Coleridge.
MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, as we previously stated that we are not opposing Mr Mosiane's amnesty application and we will leave the decision in the hands of the Committee.
NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS COLERIDGE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. We'll reserve the decision and a written decision will be handed down in the near future. Thank you. Thank you Mr Mosiane, that concludes your application.
MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, just in relation to the second incident, just for clarity sake, Peter Maluleke, we know that he was also charged with a Mr Toka, Chairperson and he was abducted on the 10th of June, just a few days prior to Mr Toka and, now just for clarity sake, is Mr Mosiane applying for amnesty for the Toka incident and for the Peter ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I gather that it's in respect of both the kidnapping and the person that he refers to in his papers as an unknown person, would seem in all probability to be Mr Peter Maluleke.
MS COLERIDGE: Now Chairperson, then we obviously have a problem in relation to Mr Peter Maluleke, in that he wasn't notified because we didn't realise.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, you had no information from the evidence, it was referred to as an unknown person, but I think that is unavoidable and it's not due to the fault of any person at all that he didn't receive notice, but for purposes of the decision, we will regard Mr Peter Maluleke as being a victim and make the necessary recommendation to the Reparations Committee, referring to him as being a victim, although Mr Mosiane didn't in fact know that it was Maluleke, but everything points to the fact that it is him.
MS COLERIDGE: Yes, Chairperson, and Mr Toka is in contact with Mr Maluleke, so we could also forward him a copy of the transcript and so forth.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I've got a note here that Mr Maluleke is the victim of the first kidnapping.
MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. That concludes this hearing. Ms Coleridge are you ready to proceed with the next matter, or should we take a short adjournment?
MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, can we just take a short adjournment in order to get everybody here? Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment now and then we'll proceed with the next matter on the role. Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
