...... We had to put back our plans until February. On the 9th of February the Executive gathered at the headquarters of the Party, called Eagle's Nest, situated in the town of Mafikeng. Then we said today is the day, no mistake. We are going to explode.
We dispersed in the evening. Rokie and the Secretary General of the Party remained at the Headquarters. Apparently the spent the night there.
I went back to my family. My family had already joined me from Johannesburg. My wife was employed and she is still employed. I went back to bed, pretending, not telling my wife anything. I did not want to make a mistake. Not that I did not trust her, but I told myself I've got to be honest to myself, I've got to be honest with the people I'm working with. We had agreed that this thing must be kept as secretly as possible.
I couldn't sleep that night, on the 9th of February. I think I went out about five times that night. I was waiting for the early hours of the morning when things were to happen.
Round about 5 o'clock on the 10th of February I woke my wife and told her it was time to prepare for work and I just lied and I asked her to open the radio. She did exactly that.
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At six o'clock exactly she called me and said, Sam, there is a coup. Mangope's government has been toppled. And the announcement is, your party is to be given the government. And I jumped up as if I was not aware that was going to happen.
She said to me before she left, you have heard the news, nobody is to go near the government buildings, except school children, teachers. Well obviously the police and the soldiers were going to be up and about.
So at eight in the morning I went down to the travel offices. I pretended to move around the village to see the reaction of the people. Everybody was happy. Even some of the police and the soldiers and the security police I met rejoiced and everybody who could recognise me as one of the candidates said to me, accommodate me in your new government, or find me a better post. I know you are going to get a cabinet post. You were a prominent figure. I kept on smiling. That was on the 10th.
In the afternoon I went to a bottle store. I wanted to cool off, picked up a few tins of malt, went back home, took a sip. I wife was excited about the whole thing.
As I have said that the thing had failed. The South African Police, the South African soldiers had to restore Mangope to power. Rejoice turned into mourning and trouble had started for all the members of the PPP organization.
People started running out of the country. I said I am not going to run away. My parents advised me to leave for Botswana. All the relatives suggested, why don't we leave for Botswana. I am still having relatives in Botswana, but I said to myself, we started this thing.
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Roke has run away. People are going to remain suffering. Let me be man enough to stay and face the rest of the hand of Mangope. I stayed. I just decided to stay and wait for whatever, for fate to take its course.
It actually did, on the 12th in the afternoon I was picked up by the Security Police. After running around for two days looking for me. I was just evading them. I could locate them. I could see them from afar and seeing their cars just next to a tree or a house. They would go passed. And I would follow them, knowing that they won't turn back. I preferred to spend the day with people, fearing for my life. I told myself, if they pick me up being alone, they could possibly kill me. Which would have happened. Even the day I was arrested I was picked up in town. I preferred to be amongst the people for my own good. That was the strategy I used.
We spent the night at Mafikeng Prison. That evening it was raining. We spent the night in an open cell. The cell was congested. You could hardly sit down. We spend the night standing on our feet. I was not alone. Apparently some of the members were already detained before me.
On the Saturday we were driven to Rooigrond. I found a lot of soldiers there who were detained, most of the members of my party. We were put in an open cell. Most of us spend almost ten days there.
Until the end of the ten days, on the 19th of February I was removed from that cell, taken to an office by two white officers who questioned me about what happened. I pretended to be honest, not to know anything, about what happened, why was there a coup.
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They said to me, you are going to tell us. You better strip. "Trek uit jong, daar is nie tyd nie". I could smell blood, before it started flowing. I removed my clothes. I was with only two officers. Apparently they could not introduce themselves, but I realised they were the security police. They started interrogating me.
They did everything at their disposal to get information. Ultimately they used electric shocks, electric shocks they put on my private parts - theoretically for most of the day. When I screamed, they would leave the office and go out.
They would come back after a few minutes and asked me, gaan jy die waarheid praat? I would say, yes. They would remove the electric shock and said, ja jong, praat. Then I said I know nothing. He said, jy het tyd om te speel man.
People it was hard. One had to be manly, until they are tired. Then I was taken back to the cell.
I stayed or I remained there in detention until the 24th of February. Then I was released. Not myself only, most of us were released. A handful remained.
I went back home. My family started rejoicing. 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th - round about 5 o'clock, I was with a few friends at our joint where we used to meet. I was about to relate my order. Somebody said, there comes a police car. I stopped at the place. An officer I knew very well by the name of Petri, came out of that car, followed by four heavily police, with big guns.
He came straight to me and said, we have come to fetch you. He said, we don't have time, let's go. I got inside, driven back to Mafikeng Police Station, trying to reason.
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At the Police Station I was told, we are taking you back to Rooigrond. It has been a mistake that you were released. You are the man who know exactly what happened.
I started becoming suspicious of my colleagues I left behind. That probably somebody leaked out information that I had knowledge. I became very restless. That was on a Saturday.
Sunday morning at about 9 o'clock I was called out of the cell where I was. Found at the door, Captain Mojana and Captain Molale with nine other security police. They said, come. Taken to an office. Interrogation started again.
This time Captain Mojana and Captain Molale withdrew into another office. They left me with that group of young men. I could see they were all still very rough. They looked hefty. You know, something surprised me during the interrogation, nine as they were, they would all ask questions at the same time. And I was expected to respond to every question.
Whilst I was trying to reason, they kick, clap, you know. I would find myself rolling on the floor. I did not know what was happening, but I kept on saying that I did not know anything. My biggest problem was not to sell out information, which would result in many people suffering. I felt if somebody was to die than I had to stand and wait for death, as long as people would remain safe.
And I said I am not going to give information. I was taken back to my cell late in the afternoon. That meant a day without food.
Monday I was told, I was taken to the headquarters of
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the security police. A place named Kopie, along the Ramathlabama Road, Mafikeng Ramathlabama. That is where the headquarters of the security police is situated, next to the defence force camp.
I could smell blood. I have heard about the place. It is an isolated place. It is in the forest. I started panicking. Immediately I was put on that van that morning, I said to myself, am I going to be the second Steve Biko. Steve Biko was removed from Port Elizabeth en route to Pretoria. I was removed from Rooigrond and being taken into the wilderness. This is the end of my life today.
On arrival there, I was taken to an office. A security officer, I'm trying to remember his name - I'll remember it a I go on - I was put in an office. He came to me, he asked me, I know you even know me. He asked, why did you do what you did? I said what? Why are you involved in what happened? I said, no I know nothing. He said, for your own good, tell me the truth. I have all the truth, I know what happened, I know what you did, but it is up to you, for your own good you will have to tell me. At any rate, that you don't want to talk, I'm leaving you here. Some people will attend to you.
I knew he meant white people. He meant white officers which ultimately walked into the office, looked at me. You know how a policeman can look at you, he doesn't wink his eyes - you wink your eyes many times, but he won't wink his. He is drawing something from you. He is creating fear in your face. When you look at him you start panicking.
One of them said to me:
"Jong, hierso ons is baie besig. Ons het nie tyd vir mense soos jy nie, wat nie die waarheid wil
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praat nie. Ek gaan tee drink en as ek terugkom gaan ons sit en gesels en jy gaan my alles sê wat jy weet."
He left, one remained and said to me, "het jy geld?". I said, no I don't have money. He said,
"Rokie se kop is R50 000 jong. As jy net kan sê waar Rokie, jy kry daai geld en jy gaan huis toe. Ek sê, ek is dan in die tronk, hoe kan ek weet waar gaan die man, ek is in die tronk. Hy sê, reg, ek loop ook soos my maat".
He left me there.
After a few minutes, they both came back. And then the interrogation started. Cheeking, clapping, everything you know. Picking up chairs, hitting me with those chairs, I remember one chair broke the way those men used their force. I was seated as I am seated, I had to fall back. I fell back, seated on the chair.
He picked me up and went for the electric shock. Started their job, as usually on my private parts.
In the evening I was driven back to Rooigrond. Then on that day I was put in isolation. Taken to a cell where I stayed alone for a period of almost two months. I had nobody to talk to. Five days a week in the morning, round about seven I would be taken out of the cell, made to run around for about fifteen minutes, then put back in the cell, locked up for the day. The cell had a toilet, a washing basin, which means I had not to say I am going to relieve myself. Food were brought into my cell.
Occasionally I would be taken to Koppie for further interrogation, always by white officers. Once a month I would be seen by a doctor. Once a month I would be seen by MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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a magistrate, to check as to whether I was not being
assaulted.
In the cells I was never assaulted. I don't know whether they feared I would tell the magistrate. I was not the only one in isolation. I think we were about twelve but each in his own cell. I was first put in cell No 1. On the arrival of Tim Motiri I was removed to 11. Apparently he was target number one, as far as I am concerned.
At one time when the doctor visited me he told me I had high blood pressure. I was suffering from gout I did not know it was gout, but according to the doctor it was gout, and I was given Panodo's to relieve the pain. That is all the kind of treatment I got.
During my stay at one stage, I was told and given a paper to sign - sort of a form - that I was to be further detained for 90 days, or until I talked, what happened to Mangope and why had that to happen.
Just out of the blue on the 9th of May 1988, in the evening, I got a shock when they knocked on my door, round about nine o'clock. I thought, now they are going to finish me. I was told to dress up, take up all my belongings, walk out of that cell, out of jail, driven to Mafikeng Prison, then told I was a free man, taken home.
That is the story, but to add to what I have said - around 1980 during May, I lost a younger brother who was resident at Ishuseng. When I was busy making arrangements for the funeral of the young man on a Friday afternoon, after collecting the corpse from the mortuary, a combi full of people pulled up at my place, followed by a small car. They came to me parents place, where the funeral was to take place. I could see through the window that those
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were security police. They asked somebody outside if I was in.
On learning I was inside the house they said I should be called out. I was called outside and told I was to be picked up. They were security police. I said to them, let me inform my parents. I was allowed to go back into the house. I informed my parents. My father tried to reason with them as well as my elder brother but they just had no time
I was driven back. Then there was the parliament, and behind that parliament - it was a wall like this but it was called parliament. There were cells there. I was put in a cell. At about nine o'clock in the evening, somebody by the name of Sotsobe, who introduced himself as the Chief of the Intelligence, with a group of five men, opened the cell, drove me to my place.
They did not ask where I stayed, they went straight to my place. I was surprised. How did these people know where I stayed? I meant to me I was all along under surveillance. I was being followed, all my movements. At any rate I knew I was being monitored.
After they searched my house I was asked about books I had in the house. I showed them my bookcase. Sotsobe with his men took a set of 14 books, very valuable books. I valued those books very much. Gave me a list, they took 14 books. Some of the books I remember, Sharafoot, The End, Revonia Trial, Not for your Comfort, Robben Island, Nelson Mandela, Facing Mount Kenia, Koruma, you count them, there were 14. Up to this day I value those books a lot. Up to this day. Thank you.
MS SEROKE: Thank you very much, Mr Thwane, for sharing
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this information with us. I would like to ask you a few questions.
In your testimony you mentioned that you were forcibly removed from Johannesburg. Was it by law, or how did this happen?
MR THWANE: Whilst resident in Johannesburg, I happened to be involved in affairs that resulted in the uprising of 1976. We were opposed to Afrikaans as medium of instruction. I was very prominent. As you know, people started running all over the country. I was a member of the school board, Midlands School Board, under the Chairmanship of the late Mr A Lethlape.
Apparently, Lethlape as a Mangope man, gave our names to Mangope. That we have people here in Johannesburg who would or who could help in the development of Bophuthatswana. Not me alone, but people like Boss Solirathebe, Mr Mokale, quite a number of them who ultimately became cabinet ministers here. I could not feature in the Mangope Government although on various occasions I was offered a cabinet post, if only I was prepared to serve under Mangope, but I flatly refused. I preferred to be a South African at all times. That resulted in my being removed because now the Superintendent of Midlands where I was residing, called to his office and told me I was wanted by my people, my government. I had to leave and vacate the house.
I suggested to the Superintendent, let my leave my family here and go back to Mafikeng and hear why those people want me there. Fortunately, I still own that house up to this day because my children are still there.
He was humanly enough to allow that to happen, but I had
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to come to Mafikeng. And I was never allowed to go back, because immediately on arrival here, they took my pass. I was a holder of a pass book. It was taken by the Mangope regime.
MS SEROKE: So when you came to Mafikeng and you were made those offers and you refused what did you do? Did you find a job and did you find a house?
MR THWANE: Fortunately, I originated from this place. So, whilst I was working I knew that one day I will have to retire. We never thought the country would be split into pieces and whilst I was working I built a house here for my retirement. And it was occupied by my relatives all along. So I had no problem with accommodation, but having refused offers by Mangope I knew I would never be employed, unless by the private sector and I was not just prepared.
I felt, accepting a job would be accepting not to be a South African, but to be a member of a bantustan regime. So I preferred to live from hand to mouth, relying mostly on my wife who was and is still employed. Apparently was employed by Susanna's sister. She was transferred over here. So her job was secured all along.
MS SEROKE: You also mentioned that you were taken to Mafikeng Police Station and on the next day you were taken to Rooigrond. What happened that night in the Mafikeng cell after you were picked up?
MR THWANE: Fortunately, I was not the only one. Nothing happened to anybody. We were just kept there for the night.
MS SEROKE: You have already told us what happened at Rooigrond, the interrogation and the torture that was
administered to you. And then you were released on the 24th of February. You have also stated that you were re-MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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detained and you wandered why you were re-detained and perhaps some of the people may have informed against you, but subsequently say they wanted to know where Rokie was.
Do you think that was the purpose of re-detaining you?
MR THWANE: Well, the questioning about Rokie was just part of my re-detention. They suspected, because having relatives in Botswana, I could have arranged for Rokie to be kept somewhere there, because all along, until it was established Rokie was in England, my relatives in Botswana were harassed.
They told my at one stage they were stopped at the border. They could not be allowed to come this end of the border. So there was that suspicion that I has arranged for his accommodation there.
MS SEROKE: You were a member of the People's Progressive Party. And you say part of your strategy was that Mangope should be killed if the coup should be successful.
How did you feel when you ... a strategy of that nature.
MR THWANE: Mangope was not as it should be, humanly a respected man. Mangope was a feared man. And once people fear a man, the only way of relieving themselves of such fear is for the elimination of that man. So, when I planned this I was planning it for the relieve of the people, not for myself. That would have been for the good of everybody, except his family of course.
MS SEROKE: Your strategy did not include other alternatives, peaceful ways of clearing the country of this man?
MR THWANE: As far as I knew Mangope, he was the type of
man who would not accept to leave this place. The second point was that he leaned on the South African Government
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all along. So, I knew that ultimately they would rescue him, exactly as they did.
MS SEROKE: You say that when you were told that you were released on the 9th of May 1989 you were relieved but it came as a surprise. Why do you think they released you.
MR THWANE: It is because whilst in detention the warders in jail were telling us, all of us, not me alone, that you people are going to hang. You are facing a very serious crime of treason and I knew that treason meant life imprisonment or death, so I as waiting for any of the two.
That I would either, if charged, be given life imprisonment or be hanged. So, that is why it came as a surprise when I was released, but still I had concern for those who were left behind - what was to happen to them?
MS SEROKE: Thank you Mr Thwane.
DR RANDERA: Mr Thwane you told us in great detail and I appreciate the effort and the energy you taken in telling us the build up to the coup on the 10th of February 1988 and what subsequently happened to you. I'm interested to know what were you doing when you left Soweto to come to stay in Mafikeng and what are you doing at the present time.
MR THWANE: Whilst in Johannesburg I had a comfortable job, a job that was paying me well. I was working out at Vereniging, I was working for the Railway Services, I was a booking clerk, selling tickets at the station. I was then a good-paying job. I was quite comfortable. It made me bitter to find myself loosing that job, because I was bend on working until pensioned. I was in Dlamane but I had
had conditioned myself not to interfere with the Government money because we assumed the rally was on by the Government and that would have resulted in me getting a comfortable MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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pension.
But on arrival here I ran around, I reorganised myself. After refusing offers by the Mangope regime, I started by selling coal. I became a coal merchant, which resulted in me building a shop. All along I was owning that shop whilst a politician at the same time. But on my release, because my wife could not man the shop, it was manned by relatives. It deteriorated. I am busy trying to rebuild it at the moment to re-establish it again. As age does not allow me to be employed I was looking forward to be featuring in the present Government, but you know, these things don't just come to you .....
DR RANDERA: Thank you Mr Thwane. I want to go on to my next question. Again I just want to understand. At the time you gave your statement to us and in your statement you say when you were questioned by the police in Mafikeng you said you knew nothing about the coup. I understand why you would say that at the time, but at the time that you gave your statement to us your statement does not actually say very much about the very central role that you yourself played from what you said to us today, in strategizing for the coup and organizing for that coup. Why was that?
MR THWANE: The statement that I gave to this Commission is the statement that is in the hands of my lawyer at the moment. So, I did not want to reveal all to my lawyer. At the time I made the statement. One has to be very careful, because the lawyer mans the office. The office is his but he employs people who goes through these files one might have gone through that, gone through my file, seeing all that, then unexpectedly revealed. And just to find myself again in trouble, so I kept most of the information to
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myself, which I would I only give when appearing before the court with my lawyer. And I did not, when making the statement here, actually talk as I am now. I just gave over what I have asked from my lawyer.
I asked my lawyer to give me the statement. I made a photostat copy and I gave it to the people who were taking the statements. So now it appears as if there is a difference. What I have said here, forms part of the strategy and what is not right in there, was to attract the Commission to get this information.
DR RANDERA: Mr Thwane I raised that very point because I suppose the story for me in that is that for everybody else who is making statements, there is nothing to fear in making the statement. And, therefore, when people make their statements they must be as inclusive as possible and not exclusive.
I would like to go on to my next question. Mr Thwane you say in what you have been talking about today in the strategising for the coup you recognised that if it failed, it meant disaster, personally and for your PPP, Progressive People's Party. You also go on to say you were willing to take life, whether the life of Mangope, President Mangope at the time, or anybody else for that matter who supported him.
My question, therefore, is in your arrest were you, therefore, prepared for what was going to happen to you in terms of the torture and beatings that you experienced or
not?
MR THWANE: When people started running around for shelter, leaving the country I decided to stay and face the rest of the law. So whatever would have happened to me I was prepared for. Rather than allow the sufferers to remain MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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suffering. People suffered a lot during the Mangope regime. He did not value life. That is why so many people died during his time and I was bend on revenging on behalf of the people. They did not have the nerve to face him. Up to this day people still see him, they don't believe that he is obscured, he is rotting at his place there. They still fear just his appearance. His voice heard over the radio, people would say, there he is still alive and about. I don't care for that.
DR RANDERA: Why you think the coup failed? And secondly, despite your intimate central involvement in the planning of the coup, why do you think you were not charged at the end of this period you were in detention for almost three months?
MR THWANE: Whenever one is in detention, having committed a crime or not, one is charged by implicating himself. How you approach the case, in whatever result it comes out. So, I planned it in such a way I must conceal the information until I die. It is fortunate that people today know of the plans, because I am safe now. Although, possibly having revealed this, the other people like the Security Police might decide otherwise. But, ok, it is ok, but I don't expect it to happen. It is only that I am a human being. You never can just guarantee anything.
DR RANDERA: Thank you sir.
MR MALAN: Mr Thwane, just two or three very brief
questions. Did I hear you correctly in saying that in all the time that you were in detention and all the torture you never gave any information, relating to the coup, to those that interrogated you?
MR THWANE: My response in most of the cases was, the radio MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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has stated that the police has toppled the Mangope regime and they will hand over to the PPP, so I always told them I was not a soldier. The soldiers toppled the Mangope regime, not the party. So I would have featured as a member of the party on receipt of the reigns of government from the soldiers. That is how I responded.
MR MALAN: Could I repeat the question. My question really is, you are saying that at no stage did you disclose any information about the planning of the coup, you did not admit any involvement in your planning to the police?
MR THWANE: I did not.
MR MALAN: The second question is really a follow-up of Dr Randera's about your preparedness for what really followed. If you look back on this period, do you see yourself as a victim, or do you see yourself as one of the major role players, or do you see yourself as both? And why I am asking this is because the actor enjoins us to look at the perspectives of witnesses. So how do you see yourself?
MR THWANE: Well, I have sacrificed in my life. I had told myself that having been involved in opposing the Mangope regime I should accept the ultimate ...
CHAIRPERSON: ... that when the coup was planned people thought of committing murder, but by strange twist of events that did not happen, because where murder occurs it goes on like a rolling stone. The civilians would have been in great danger, admittedly there would have been other lives involved, rather than those who has planned the coup, and for this we see the moral strength of those who were involved in the coup, that they did not remain adamant to the schemes of the plot that they in mind earlier on.
And we are very thankful that you have shared with the MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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Commission this kind of valuable information, which is information on determination, more especially determination to rid the people of that which is considered evil, but it was done with such graciousness if I could call it that, that in the coup of Bophuthatswana there was no life lost. If it was, perhaps it was long thereafter. For this we are truly grateful and you can rest assured that the Commission takes kindly to what you have done and you can be assured of our support at any time when needed.
We thank you and your family and your community that you were able to be with us here and share with us. Thank you.
DR RANDERA: Chairperson, I would like to suggest that we break for tea now and come back at 11 o'clock.
COMMISSION BREAKS FOR TEA
