AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 29-07-1998

MATTER: BLACK CATS

DAY: 8

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, I wonder if we can get a five minute adjournment for personal reasons?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, may I take this opportunity, I apologise for being late this morning. I had forgotten that we are starting earlier, I thought we are starting at nine o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's be thankful that you are able to say so and it is only late in time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, tell me, for some reason during the course of this hearing, I have been under the impression there is 12 applicants, there are 13 mentioned on the papers, what is the correct position, am I wrong?

MR PATEL: I am afraid so Mr Chairman, there are 13.

CHAIRPERSON: And we have finished six now, correct?

MR PATEL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to finish number 10 by tonight. It is not a target, we are going to finish it.

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, you have my support in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Unless somebody wants to come back to Ermelo in a month's time. Who is this - Mr ...

MR PATEL: It is Mr Silos Nkonyane.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkonyane, which language would you prefer to speak?

MR NKONYANE: I will testify in Zulu.

SILOS NKONYANE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL: Mr Patel, where were you born?

MR NKONYANE: I was born in Ermelo.

MR PATEL: And have you lived for all of your life in Ermelo?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: At the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, at that time, what was your occupation?

MR NKONYANE: I was a Reverend.

MR PATEL: And what is your occupation at present?

MR NKONYANE: I am still a Reverend.

MR PATEL: At the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, were you a member of any political organisation?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: Which organisation was this?

MR NKONYANE: I was the Chairman of the ANC Youth League, the Secretary of the ANC, I was a member of the Provincial Executive Youth League.

MR PATEL: You have heard the evidence of Mr John Mndebele with regard to the background statement.

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I heard.

MR PATEL: You will recall that he testified that it was yourself, himself, the previous witness Nicholas Zwane and Jabu Aron Mkhwanazi who met with Chris Hani. Does that accord with your recollection?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: Who were the people that were present when you met with Mr Chris Hani in July 1990?

MR NKONYANE: It was Mr Mndebele, Mr Zwane and myself.

MR PATEL: Was Mr Jabu Aron Mkhwanazi not present?

MR NKONYANE: He was not present.

MR PATEL: In so far as the rest of the background statement is concerned, that is the background statement that I read and Mr Mndebele confirmed, do you confirm the contents of that background statement in so far as it relates to you?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I confirm.

MR PATEL: Now, Annexure A1 and A2, which appears on pages 15 to 19 of Volume 1, do you have that document?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I do.

MR PATEL: Could you tell the Honourable Committee who drafted this particular document, who compiled it?

MR NKONYANE: This document was compiled by myself with the assistance of the others. The others who are also implicated, they were assisting with dates.

MR PATEL: Yes. Can you tell the Committee, when this document was compiled?

MR NKONYANE: It was compiled before the first commission, first Truth Commission, the one that was postponed, the hearing that was postponed. This document was compiled this year, in 1998 before the first hearing.

MR PATEL: According to the schedule which appears on page 20 of Volume 1 of the documents, you claim amnesty for the same offences as Mr Mndebele and the previous applicant, Nicholas Zwane, is that correct?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: What was your motivation for perpetrating these offences?

MR NKONYANE: There was violence in our community, because of that violence, it became evident that we had to devise some means to operate as to ensure that we do have peace in our community.

That is why this took place.

MR PATEL: Now, as I understand the evidence that has been led thus far, the Special Committee which consisted of yourself, Mr Mkhwanazi, Mr Mndebele and Mr Zwane gave two specific instructions with regard to assassinations, namely one for Mr Jwi Zwane and one for Mr Chris Ngwenya. Do you confirm that evidence?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I confirm that.

MR PATEL: Do you also confirm the general instruction which is fully set out on page 13 of Volume 1 namely that there was an implied instruction to Mr Gushu that he was to recruit assistance from SDU's in the local community and also that he was to obtain arms and ammunition and to finance these operations, from whatever source possible, including armed robberies?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I do confirm that.

MR PATEL: Did you know that Mr Mkhwanazi was to instruct Mr Gushu?

MR NKONYANE: No, I didn't know.

MR PATEL: And did you know Mr Gushu himself?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I knew him as a comrade who used to attend the meetings of the Youth League and I used to know him as a member of the community.

MR PATEL: Did you know Mr Chris Ngwenya and Mr Jwi Zwane?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, Mr Chris Ngwenya and Mr Jwi Zwane, I knew them.

MR PATEL: Do you know whether they had belonged to any political party?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I knew that they were Black Cat members and they were also members of Inkatha.

MR PATEL: As an ANC member, how did you view the IFP or the Inkatha members and the Black Cats?

MR NKONYANE: I regarded them as enemies of ANC, as they were people who were attacking the members of the ANC and they were also victimising the community.

MR PATEL: In committing these offences for which you claim amnesty, did you act out of any personal - for personal gain or malice?

MR NKONYANE: No. There was nothing to gain, there was nothing to benefit.

MR PATEL: In respect of the offences for which you claim amnesty, were you prosecuted?

MR NKONYANE: No.

MR PATEL: Mr Jwi Zwane, did you know him personally?

MR NKONYANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Are you aware as to whether he had a business or not?

MR NKONYANE: No, he never had any business, he was just an ordinary person.

MR PATEL: Mr Jwi Zwane and Mr Chris Ngwenya, were they - do you have personal knowledge as to what role they played as Black Cat members?

MR NKONYANE: I knew them as leaders of Black Cats who were actually fighting the members of the ANC and the community.

MR PATEL: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KEMP.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, you as a member of this Committee, did you have any direct instruction, did you give any direct instruction to Mr Gushu to do anything in Piet Retief?

MR NKONYANE: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know Mr Hleza?

MR NKONYANE: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman. Just to make it clear that ...

CHAIRPERSON: I ran out of luck.

MR HATTINGH: Just to make it clear, at no stage any suggestion was made that Jwi Zwane was running his own business. The suggestion made was that Jwi Zwane was assisting his brother Elias Zwane with his business. Do you know of this?

MR NKONYANE: Can you please repeat your question?

MR HATTINGH: At no stage during this hearing was the allegation made that Jwi Zwane had his own business. However, it is alleged by the brother of Jwi Zwane, namely Elias Zwane, that Jwi Zwane in fact worked with him, Elias, in the business that Elias had.

MR NKONYANE: I heard that here in this hearing.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know Jwi Zwane and in what capacity?

MR NKONYANE: I knew him as a leader of Black Cats and as a member of Inkatha.

MR HATTINGH: I want to put it to you that according to the instructions from the family of the deceased victims, and in particular with reference to Jwi Zwane, they will say that Jwi Zwane did in fact not play the role of a trouble maker in this area at the time, and that there was no reason for him to be assassinated as indicated by you and the other applicants who were members of the Special Committee, who made that decision.

MR NKONYANE: That is surprising because when we were at the funeral, I was there when Jwi Zwane fired, shot and I remember that he fired at Jabu Sibanyoni who fell in front of the coffin and Jwi Zwane came closer and he shot at the coffin.

It is actually surprising me that today the people say that he was not involved in the violence. We used to be in the same Committees, in the same Peace Committee with him, and he used to indicate that he was a leader of Inkatha.

That is surprising to me.

MR HATTINGH: The fact that Mr Zwane allegedly shot at the coffin at that particular funeral, did that spark the decision by your Committee, your Special Committee that he had to be assassinated?

MR NKONYANE: No. No, that was not the only reason. There is a lot of things that took place in our community where Jwi Zwane was involved.

MR HATTINGH: However, was it shortly after this funeral incident that the decision was made by your Committee that Jwi Zwane was to be assassinated?

MR NKONYANE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Was it before the funeral or some time there after, if you could just assist us?

MR NKONYANE: I can't remember, but the decision was taken earlier, I think the decision was taken earlier.

MR HATTINGH: With regard to Chris Ngwenya, the instructions are ...

CHAIRPERSON: Before we carry on, tell me Mr Nkonyane, how far were you when this incident of the coffin, how far were you from that incident when it took place? Were you officiating in that funeral?

MR NKONYANE: I can't be so sure, but I think I was about 100 to 120 metres away from the incident. At the time, we were behind a pipe that was there, because when they shot, when they fired, we took cover behind the pipe, that is when we saw Jwi Zwane. After shooting Jabu Sibanyoni he came closer to the coffin and Chris Ngwenya was also nearer. He was also busy firing.

One old man who had a bed, we couldn't identify him but after some time talking to the Black Cat members, they identified the person as Dalaqolo Luthuli.

CHAIRPERSON: You as a Reverend, how does the interference with the body, the dead body of a person, how does that effect the community?

MR NKONYANE: I was a teacher, what I was actually referring to, I meant a school teacher, not a Reverend.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but can you answer the question as a school teacher, or if you can't, then say you can't.

Can you tell us what the effect of interference with the body of the dead would have on the community?

MR NKONYANE: The community was very disturbed. People showed some disappointment, that is when we realised that even the media people came, they had interest because they wanted to know what was happening.

They wanted to know these people who were cruel, who can even shoot at a dead person.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman. Just to clarify the issue, were you at any stage in the past or at present a Reverend, a man from the church?

MR NKONYANE: No. I am not a preacher, I am not a Reverend.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Hattingh, can I just come in if you want to move on to another issue. Whose funeral was this Mr Nkonyane?

MR NKONYANE: It was the funeral of Mr Sibanyoni who was killed by the Black Cat gang.

ADV SANDI: Did you get to know if the coffin was damaged, did you see any holes on the coffin?

MR NKONYANE: What I saw the time, I only saw Jwi opening the coffin and shooting. I don't know, because we didn't get the results from the post mortem. I don't know, I am not sure whether there was any damage or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't they bury the body in any event, there and then?

MR NKONYANE: I think we went on because the Police came. We managed to continue.

ADV SANDI: I think I heard one of the legal representatives yesterday saying this whole incident about the coffin having been shot at, was thoroughly investigated by the Goldstone Commission. Did you hear whether the Goldstone Commission had inspected this coffin to see if there were any holes on it?

MR NKONYANE: No. I don't know anything about the findings of the Goldstone Commission. All I can remember is that we continued with the funeral.

I am not sure, maybe the body was exhumed and investigated. I don't know if that was done, maybe it was done.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Nkonyane, with regard to Chris Ngwenya on the instructions of the family, I just want to put it to you that it would appear that not only did he also not play the part in the violence as pictured by the applicants, but that there was in fact a personal or a private problem between Mr Ngwenya and Mr John Mndebele and that in fact on the day before Chris Ngwenya was assassinated, Mr John Mndebele laid a charge with the Police, against Chris Ngwenya.

What are your comments in this regard?

MR NKONYANE: You can ask John Mndebele about that, I don't know anything.

MR HATTINGH: Just to put it in brief that the killing of Chris Ngwenya was not politically motivated, but for another reason. There was no political reason for your Committee to make such a decision or to give such an instruction for him to be assassinated.

MR NKONYANE: I won't agree with you because after the death of Jwi Zwane, I know that a bus came full of people who had red ribbons around their forehead. Those were the people who were supporting Chris.

After the funeral of Jwi Zwane, about nine people that day died. Even an old man who was drinking porridge at home, was shot and a lot of people thereafter died, and even the weekend after that, a lot of people died. Other bodies were burnt down, therefore we can't say that Chris was not involved.

This all happened because of Chris' involvement.

MR HATTINGH: Were there any other specific persons identified by your Committee who according to your Committee were part of that violence or the cause of all the problems?

MR NKONYANE: I don't get your question, please repeat.

MR HATTINGH: Apart from Chris Ngwenya and Jwi Zwane, were any other specific people or persons identified by your Special Committee as being people who were responsible for the problems or the conflict in this area at the time?

MR NKONYANE: The people who were involved in violence, there were a lot of them, they were from the Black Cat gang, but the people who were at the forefront was Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya.

People like Obet and Baba and Bongani, all of them were also involved. There are other people of which I don't know their names, but they were also involved in violence.

MR HATTINGH: But your Committee at no stage considered it necessary to issue an instruction for the assassination of Obet Nhlabathi or Bongani Malinga?

MR NKONYANE: The instruction was this, if there is a problem, the Commander must make it a point that the people that he is working with in the SDU's, must make sure that they handle those problems properly.

MR HATTINGH: The issue of the robberies, how many robberies were reported to you that you can testify about? By that I mean armed robberies which were performed or committed in the furtherance of the struggle.

MR NKONYANE: Here in Ermelo, we were actually responsible for problems here in Ermelo. Things that were actually happening outside, we were just talking and we used to hear that such things happened, but we were only responsible for this community.

These incidents that you are talking about, I just heard the people talking about them, this that happened in Piet Retief and Secunda. But as the Committee we were only responsible for Ermelo.

MR HATTINGH: Did those armed robberies carry your and or your Committee's approval?

MR NKONYANE: This was a local community, not a regional committee that was responsible for Secunda. We were responsible for Ermelo.

MR HATTINGH: Then lastly, it would appear that there were extensive delays from the time that your Committee made the decision that someone was to be assassinated, until the time that the instruction was carried out.

That is with reference to Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya. Did you make any enquiries about the delay in the light of the severity of the conflict at the time caused by the two people as alleged?

MR NKONYANE: The delay was because there was still negotiations that were taking place between our group and the Black Cats.

The Reverends, the church ministers were actually playing a role in those negotiations. We had a series of meetings trying to negotiate. We were not prepared to fight during the negotiations, but despite all those negotiations, the violence was continuing. The people were dying.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir, no questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Patel, any re-examination?

MR PATEL: None Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL.

CHAIRPERSON: Francis?

ADV BOSMAN: Just for the record, I am a little confused, can we just get the record straight? Why did you say you were a Reverend, I heard it now on two occasions?

MR NKONYANE: I said I am a teacher, umfundisi, in English that means a teacher, not a church minister. It is the same, it is written the same as the church minister and a teacher in Zulu, but the pronunciation is not the same. What I meant was that I was a school teacher.

ADV SANDI: Mr Nkonyane, just on your very last statement in response to the question by Mr Hattingh, Mr Hattingh was asking you about extensive delays which occurred before Zwane and Ngwenya were killed.

I understood you to say that the delays were occasioned by the negotiations that were taking place between your group and the Black Cats. Was that correct?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, there were negotiations that were taking place.

ADV SANDI: Should one understand that to mean that you were talking to people who you were going to kill anyway, a decision had already been taken to kill these people at the time you were negotiating with them? Would that be a correct understanding of your evidence?

MR NKONYANE: No. When we were negotiating, we were just negotiating but it happened that they didn't want, after some time they were not prepared to take part in the negotiations.

At some stage they said they got the permission from Ulundi. We realised that the representatives of Inkatha, they were not present. There was a situation whereby Mr Zwane and Ngwenya would say they are not prepared to take part in these meetings, they would continue with violence, therefore we would find ourselves in that situation whereby even if we are still prepared to communicate with them in terms of trying to bring peace, but they were not prepared to negotiate with us.

ADV SANDI: I think your explanation confuses me even more. Let me put my question this way. Which of the two things was the first to happen, negotiations or the decision to kill? Which one was the first to occur?

MR NKONYANE: The first one was negotiations.

ADV SANDI: And the decision to kill, came later when the negotiations failed?

MR NKONYANE: We realised that even if we were negotiating with them, there was nothing positive that was happening and they were not prepared to sit in that committee whose aim was to bring peace.

Instead they carried on with the violence.

ADV SANDI: That answers me, thank you Mr Nkonyane. Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkonyane, I asked a number of the other applicants the same question, I just want to find out what your attitude is, what we are discussing in this hearing amounts to a lot of strife between people.

Do you understand that?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: What we are discussing, amounts to strife between human beings, not so?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question, the Interpreter didn't get it?

CHAIRPERSON: What we are discussing in this hearing, amounts to strife between human beings, is that not so?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct. I think as a community we should reconcile.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I am getting there. There has been attempts to find reasons for it. The reasons to me is irrelevant.

Are you happy to start all over, to reconcile with the community?

MR NKONYANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And how would you propose to start doing that?

MR NKONYANE: I think what is of utmost importance is that we should talking to each other once more, not only negotiations. I think we should start visiting the families of the victims and I think we should try to re-establish the ties that we once had and any manner or any way in which we can get back together again as the community.

Maybe the TRC can help the families who were effected because a number of families were effected by the violence due to the attacks on their houses. We would appreciate an effort on the part of the TRC, to meet the families of the victims half way with regard to finance or material resources. Even those who were psychologically effected by this whole violence, I think they also need to be helped. Not only physically, financially but also through the emotional trauma. I think that is one of the things that will bring peace.

CHAIRPERSON: That can come after. My concern is reconciling the whole fabric of the society, to restore it to what it should be.

How would you suggest we go about that as a starting point?

MR NKONYANE: Chairperson, I hope that you did take note of the fact that the very first step to me seems to be negotiations. I think that is the very first step that is going to open doors for us to be able to talk to each other. As soon as we are able to talk to each other, then whatever follows will be easy.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are prepared to do that or to be part of that?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I am very much committed to that.

CHAIRPERSON: You see what I am also concerned about is one of the possible reasons for what has happened is that innocent people had been the victims of political manipulation. How does one avoid that?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, it did happen that there were certain victims or casualties as well as people who died. It is very important for us to try and devise some means in order to support this people or victims as well as their families.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkonyane, I am well aware that there are victims and they have needs. Whether this country can afford to give them any type of support, remains to be seen.

I am talking about the whole community, not only the victims, to live in peace, to live as we should be living and to respect each other. That is what we are talking about.

Those other things like financial support and medical support will come after that, if it is at all possible. I am talking about something that cannot be paid for, you can't measure bringing a community to where it should be, with money. Do you follow what I am saying?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what I am talking about. Are you willing to be part of that restructuring of the community, irrespective of political affiliations or creed, etc?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I am committed to that. I want to be one of the people who is going to bring back the fabric of society that has been torn before.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. You are excused.

MR NKONYANE: Before I go away, may I please note that I also do regret what happened and I would like to ask for forgiveness to the families, especially the effected families, the families of the victims.

It was the situation that prompted us to do that, but I do hope that you can find it in your hearts to forgive me for my past deeds. I think you will understand the situation and you will not take it upon yourselves to avenge the deaths of the victims, because we want to rebuild the country. Thank you very much.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 29-07-1998

MATTER: BLACK CATS

DAY: 8

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CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, I would appreciate a similar performance.

MR PATEL: So would I Mr Chairman. I beg leave to call the next applicant, who is the Mr Paulos Pistol Nkonyane.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkonyane, what language would you prefer to speak?

MR NKONYANE: I am going to testify in Zulu.

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL: Mr Nkonyane, where were you born?

MR NKONYANE: In Ermelo.

MR PATEL: Have you lived for your entire life in the Ermelo area?

MR NKONYANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Now, at the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, what was your occupation?

MR NKONYANE: I was not working.

MR PATEL: And what is your occupation at present?

MR NKONYANE: At the Department of Environmental Affairs.

MR PATEL: At the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, were you a member of any organisation, political organisation?

MR NKONYANE: ANC.

MR PATEL: Were you an ordinary member or did you hold any office in the ANC?

MR NKONYANE: I was just a supporter, an ordinary member.

MR PATEL: According to the schedule, which appears on page 22 of Volume 1, you are claiming amnesty for the, firstly for the murder of Chris Ngwenya?

MR NKONYANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: Secondly you are claiming amnesty for the murder of Lindiwe Nkosi?

MR NKONYANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: Thirdly you are claiming amnesty for the attempted murder of Thembisile Nkambule?

MR NKONYANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: And finally you are claiming amnesty for illegal possession of a firearm and ammunition?

MR NKONYANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: These offences for which you claim amnesty, do they all relate to one incident or different incidents?

MR NKONYANE: These took place all at the same time.

MR PATEL: Yes. Now in perpetrating these offences, what was your motivation?

MR NKONYANE: I was following orders.

MR PATEL: Who was it that gave you the order?

MR NKONYANE: Jabu Mkhwanazi, my Commander.

MR PATEL: Mr Chris Ngwenya or any of the other victims, Lindiwe Nkosi, Thembisile Nkambule, did you know them personally?

MR NKONYANE: I knew Chris Ngwenya personally, but I did not know the rest.

MR PATEL: According to your knowledge, who was he? Did he belong to any organisation?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, he was involved in politics.

MR PATEL: Which organisation did he belong to?

MR NKONYANE: He was a member of the Black Cats which was directly linked to the IFP, they were working hand in hand.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on, did Mr Mkhwanazi give you the order personally or through somebody else?

MR NKONYANE: He gave me the orders personally.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you with anybody when you committed these crimes?

MR NKONYANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: With whom?

MR NKONYANE: Mzwandile Gushu.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was in charge of that Unit, your Unit?

MR NKONYANE: My Commander was Jabu Mkhwanazi.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you went out, was Mr Mkhwanazi with you?

MR NKONYANE: He was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was in charge of the Unit when it went into operation?

MR NKONYANE: I am not a member of the SDU, I am a soldier, an MK soldier and what I would like the Committee to know is that when I refer to my Commander, I am not saying that when I carried out the orders I should take the Commander with. It would be myself and whoever is accompanying me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkonyane, you must understand I am not trying to plot you down. All I am asking is who was in charge of the Unit, who performed these actions in which Chris Ngwenya was killed and these other offences committed?

MR NKONYANE: That is what I am trying to explain, that I was following orders. When we go to those places with Mzwandile Gushu, I would not say Mzwandile Gushu was my controller because we were both the same thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Who would have to make decisions in case something went wrong between the two of you?

MR NKONYANE: There is something that I don't understand. What decision are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: If you had to abort the operation, who would make that decision between you and Gushu?

MR NKONYANE: According to my knowledge, if the order had been issued, it had been issued and we would carry out the orders. Whatever else would come after the order had been carried out.

CHAIRPERSON: Look here Mr Nkonyane, if you two had to run up against the Police during that operation, a good soldier would run away and review the whole situation and maybe plot for another attempt. Who would take the decision to run away?

MR NKONYANE: It has never happened. When an order has been issued, it has been issued and we go straight and carry out the order.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman. What exactly was the order that was given to you?

MR NKONYANE: What I know for sure was that I should work in order to achieve peace within the greater Ermelo area.

MR PATEL: In respect of these offences that you are claiming amnesty for, what was the order that was given to you by Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR NKONYANE: I will try to explain that to the Commission. I don't know whether the Committee will understand it.

I was supposed to kill Chris, that was the order to kill Chris.

MR PATEL: In executing this order, you were also instrumental in the death of Lindiwe Nkosi and the wounding of Thembisile Nkambule. Were they shot intentionally?

MR NKONYANE: It was not our intention.

MR PATEL: Could you describe very shortly to the Committee how this, how you executed the order? You were together with Mr Gushu and you were to assassinate Mr Chris Ngwenya. How did you go about it?

MR NKONYANE: We went to Chris' place, we did not find him. We decided to go to the shops and we placed ourselves strategically. Gushu was at a certain corner and I was waiting at the passage.

We were now on the lookout that when Gushu appears, when he appeared Gushu would start shooting, and when he shoots, he would just shoot at the enemy and then I would follow him and finish off the job, and that is how it happened.

MR PATEL: You were positioned on the corner and Mr Gushu was positioned in the passage. What then happened, did you see Mr Ngwenya?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, Mr Gushu saw Chris and started shooting and I positioned myself and started shooting as well.

MR PATEL: Mr Chris Ngwenya, was he on his own or was he accompanied by anybody?

MR NKONYANE: He was together with other people.

MR PATEL: How many other people?

MR NKONYANE: There were two females.

MR PATEL: Can you describe to the Committee what their respective positions were?

MR NKONYANE: When they appeared, Chris was in the middle and on each side was one female. Chris had both his hands over each one of them, or each one's shoulder, that is each female's shoulder.

MR PATEL: Yes, and who shot first?

MR NKONYANE: Mzwandile Gushu did.

MR PATEL: And then you followed and started shooting as well, is that correct?

MR NKONYANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: Now, Mr Ngwenya, after being shot at, did he fall immediately?

MR NKONYANE: No, he did not fall immediately.

MR PATEL: What did he do after he was shot at?

MR NKONYANE: He tried to run away, maybe he ran a distance of about five metres just before he fell to the ground.

MR PATEL: And the ladies that were accompanying him, did they run as well?

MR NKONYANE: I think they did, even though I am not really sure as to what happened, because my mind was focused on Chris. I think they ran away because after a while of having done our job, we realised that there were other people who were injured besides Chris himself.

MR PATEL: In the execution of these orders, did you act out of personal malice or for any gain?

MR NKONYANE: No, it was not for any personal gain and I wasn't expecting to get anything in return.

MR PATEL: Now finally you also claim amnesty for the possession of a firearm and ammunition, and you say it relates to this particular incident.

What firearm were you carrying?

MR NKONYANE: I had an AK47.

MR PATEL: Where did you obtain the AK47 from?

MR NKONYANE: That was brought to me by Mzwandile Gushu.

MR PATEL: And for what reason did you take possession of the firearm?

CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter Mr Patel, it was unlawful?

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman. Were you prosecuted for these offences?

MR NKONYANE: I never did.

MR PATEL: Do you have an alias? Are you known by another name?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I do.

MR PATEL: What is that alias?

MR NKONYANE: Kye-Kye.

MR PATEL: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp, have you got any questions?

MR KEMP: Mr Chairman, I have no questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KEMP.

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT.

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman. Just bear with me for one moment please.

MR BLACK: Just for the record, I have no questions either.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you were late again.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Mr Nkonyane, you knew Chris Ngwenya very well, is that correct?

MR NKONYANE: I did not know him very well.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know where he lived at the time?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I did.

MR HATTINGH: Was he employed?

MR NKONYANE: No, he wasn't.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know what his movements were between the time that you received the instruction to kill him until the time that you executed the instruction?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I did.

MR HATTINGH: What were his movements?

MR NKONYANE: Most of the time he was at the Police station.

MR HATTINGH: Did you ever see him at his house or going to his house, during that period before he was killed?

MR NKONYANE: I don't understand, are you saying have I ever been to his place before he was killed, or has he ever been to his place? What I can tell you is that I went to his place on the very same day that I wanted to kill him.

MR HATTINGH: Perhaps you can just explain there was a delay of approximately or let me just first start by saying that according to the background statement, a decision that Chris Ngwenya was to be assassinated, was taken in February 1992. Do you agree with that, and I refer to page 14 of the bundle of documents, Volume 1, paragraph 18?

MR PATEL: With respect Mr Chairman, I don't think that this is a fair question.

CHAIRPERSON: He wouldn't be able to tell you when that decision was taken Mr Hattingh. Let's ask him this, when were you instructed to carry out this operation?

MR NKONYANE: If I remember quite well, I think it was quite some time after the order had been issued, because our method of operation is for us to use or utilise whatever time is available or on our hands, to get the person that we are supposed to kill.

As to how long we take, is not an issue.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not the point, the point is how long before you executed the order, did you get the instruction?

MR NKONYANE: After we realised that the violence was going on in Wesselton, but I cannot be specific with regard to the date or the month.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Chris Ngwenya was killed on the 12th of April 1992. Do you say that since receiving the instruction to kill him, it was up to you to decide whether you should in fact carry out that instruction pending on the extent of the violence which persisted or not?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, you are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said once you got the instruction, that's it, you had to carry it out? Isn't that what you said?

MR NKONYANE: If you receive an instruction, you don't necessarily execute that instruction at the very same time. You may look for the person and not get him, or you may find that the place where you have to attack the person, is not a safe place, so it is up to you as the attacker, to decide as to when to attack, as long as you have attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just understand that, you have just told us that you executed the order to kill because the violence had not ceased or abated, do you recall that?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What would have happened if the violence had ceased or abated when that order to kill Ngwenya was still alive?

MR NKONYANE: I was going to maintain the order and kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: So of what relevance is the abating or the ceasing of the violence then as far as you are concerned?

MR NKONYANE: This stems from the fact that I had been given an instruction and whatever instruction was given to me by my Commander, I have to carry out regardless of what.

I would only stop if my Commander comes back to me and say to me listen, there is no more violence, now you must stop killing so and so, then I would stop on another order to stop.

MR HATTINGH: Do I then understand you correctly that when you executed the instruction, it was based purely on the strength of a command from your Commander and irrespective of whether the person, the victim was actually politically involved or not, you would have killed that person?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say that Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Then I ask the question, is that the position?

MR NKONYANE: I would like to explain this to the Committee that the question that he is putting to me as to whether there was violence or not, I want to put this picture that as I had been instructed and told what to do, if I have not been stopped or told to halt, I was not going to.

Secondly, if that person was not involved in that violence, I do not think that I would just approach a person who has not done anything or who was not involved in politics and kill him and leave all the others.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had to rely on the information that your Commander had, isn't it? If your Commander issued that instruction, would you carry it out if the instruction related to a person that is not involved in politics and did nothing wrong?

MR NKONYANE: I would follow an instruction given to me, I am not going to run away from that. If I was instructed to kill, I was going to kill irrespective.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know whether Gushu also knew Chris - at the time, did he indicate to you that he also knew Chris?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I do know that.

MR HATTINGH: So both of you were in a position to recognise Chris Ngwenya at the time when you executed your instruction to kill him?

MR NKONYANE: The way you have structured your question, it did not happen in that manner. You are being very simplistic.

MR HATTINGH: Even though I may be simplistic, are you prepared to answer the question?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I am prepared.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, do so please.

MR NKONYANE: Could you please repeat your question?

MR HATTINGH: I understand you that both you and Mr Gushu knew Chris and both of you would be in a position to recognise Chris at the time when you were about to execute your instruction to eliminate him.

MR NKONYANE: At the time that we were going to kill him, it is not that we were not able to recognise him, we could recognise him. Because we were not going to kill any other person besides Chris, we were going to kill Chris himself, so it explains that we knew him very well facially.

MR HATTINGH: I understand that this incident occurred between six and seven o'clock in the evening, is that correct?

MR NKONYANE: I think it was round about seven to eight o'clock in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: It is even darker.

MR HATTINGH: Was it dark at the time when you ...

MR NKONYANE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: How far apart were you and Mr Gushu when you positioned yourself when you were waiting for Chris Ngwenya to arrive?

MR NKONYANE: I could estimate to the corner within this very same room, I was standing at the passage where I am indicating and Mr Gushu was standing at the opposite corner of the room.

I think that was about the distance, that is the corner of the stage where I am pointing.

MR HATTINGH: Approximately 10 metres, Chairman? Approximately ten metres, it would appear.

What was the reason for you positioning yourselves?

CHAIRPERSON: With an AK47 it didn't matter.

MR HATTINGH: I think that is in fact the point to be made. What was the reason for positioning yourselves on two different sides of the road?

MR NKONYANE: The reason was to enable us to carry out the order effectively so that we could kill Chris no matter what.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, is it being denied that this witness together with Gushu or singularly committed this crime?

MR HATTINGH: No Mr Chairman, it is not denied no.

CHAIRPERSON: Where are we getting with the positions and why they took opposite positions etc, does it matter?

Maybe you have a point that I am not seeing.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, if you will just bear with me for one minute please.

Mr Chairman, this is one of the few incidents where we still have the benefit of a survivor and an eyewitness and I have already indicated that this witness who survived the incident will be testifying at this hearing, and she will explain what happened there and in particular she will tell this Committee that after Chris Ngwenya had been shot and killed, the two perpetrators continued to pursue the two women and endeavoured to kill them.

CHAIRPERSON: Please continue.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman. What was the reason for your positioning on both sides of the road? Sorry, I think you have already answered that question.

From your application it would appear that you received only two weeks of MK training, is that correct?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Did you receive no other training as MK soldier?

MR NKONYANE: No, there isn't any other training.

MR HATTINGH: During the two week training that you did receive, were you taught how to operate an AK47 and how to shoot with it?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Where did you get the AK47 that you had that evening?

CHAIRPERSON: He already told us he got it from Gushu.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman. Did you know that Mr Gushu was a lot more experienced than you were with regard to training as MK soldier?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I was aware.

MR HATTINGH: At the time when you started shooting at Chris Ngwenya, how far was he away from you?

MR NKONYANE: Could you repeat your question please?

MR HATTINGH: At the time when you started shooting at Chris Ngwenya, how far was he away from you?

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say ten metres?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct, it was ten metres approximately.

MR HATTINGH: How many shots did you fire?

MR NKONYANE: I am not sure as to how many shots I fired. It could have been seven shots, I was not really counting to be honest.

MR HATTINGH: You said you fired approximately seven shots although you were not counting? When Mr Gushu started shooting, could you see whether he hit Mr Ngwenya, before you started shooting?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I was able to see.

MR HATTINGH: And what did you see?

MR NKONYANE: (No interpretation)

MR HATTINGH: Sorry, I don't think the answer was interpreted.

INTERPRETER: Yes, I could see that he was shooting Chris Ngwenya, that is what the witness said.

MR HATTINGH: What I am trying to get at is, prior to you starting shooting, did you see whether Mr Gushu in fact, whether he was successful in hitting Chris Ngwenya with any of his shots?

MR NKONYANE: I would not be able to see a bullet leaving the gun and hitting Chris Ngwenya because it was very dark.

MR HATTINGH: Did you see whether Chris Ngwenya was falling to the ground following the shots from Mr Gushu, prior to you starting to shoot?

MR NKONYANE: I did not see him falling after quite a few shots. He only fell after I had also attempted to shoot. It is only then that he fell onto the ground.

When Gushu started shooting, he did not fall to the ground immediately.

MR HATTINGH: At the time when Mr Gushu commenced his shots, was he behind or in front of Chris Ngwenya or at the side of Chris Ngwenya?

MR NKONYANE: He was standing on the side because Chris Ngwenya was crossing the street, coming towards this open veld. I think he was heading to his place. Gushu was not on Chris Ngwenya's front or behind. I think he was at the front side or front left side, it was neither at the back, nor at the direct front of Chris. He was strategically placed.

MR HATTINGH: And where were you at that moment when Gushu started to shoot in relation to Chris Ngwenya and the two women?

MR NKONYANE: I was following him because I was standing quite a distance from the three or the four.

MR HATTINGH: In relation to Chris Ngwenya and the ladies, were you in front of them, to their side or behind them when you started to shoot?

MR NKONYANE: I was at the front, I think almost at the same position that Gushu was.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Nkonyane, do you know that Tanda Bantu shop?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I do know the shop. I think these other shops next to where we were placed or standing.

MR HATTINGH: Perhaps you can just assist us. The witness will tell the Committee that one of the two attackers was standing at the corner of the street in front of the Tanda Bantu shop, he had an orange coloured jacket with wool on the neck parts, and a black pair of trousers. Who was this person? Was it you or Mr Gushu?

MR NKONYANE: My answer to this question was that I was not wearing any of the garments that you have just described, that is all that I will say.

CHAIRPERSON: What about Gushu?

MR NKONYANE: I don't remember.

MR HATTINGH: She will also say that in front of Dube Tonight Disco, the other person was standing in front of Dube Tonight Disco and the clothing that he was wearing was long, dark green jacket or a coat with a white T-shirt.

MR NKONYANE: I will not comment on that because all I can tell you is what I was wearing. What anybody else was wearing, I will not be able to tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, maybe you can tell us that.

MR NKONYANE: I was wearing a coat, a black coat and I had a red hat on. I don't know anything about an orange jacket.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have a T-shirt on?

MR NKONYANE: I was having a poloneck or bottle neck, a black bottleneck top.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: In any event, this witness Thembisile Nkambule will say that the person with the orange jacket also had the long firearm and not the hand weapon, but you would not be able to comment on that?

MR NKONYANE: I did have a firearm, but with regard to the garments and the description thereof, I totally disagree with you. I was not going to wear anything light which was going to make me easily identifiable. I was wearing very dark clothes.

Everything that I was wearing, was black because that made me feel safer and I wasn't going to be easily identified. That is why I had dark clothes.

MR HATTINGH: Was either you or Mr Gushu known by the name Mzala?

MR NKONYANE: I know nothing of that sort.

MR HATTINGH: Had either you or Mr Gushu been employed by Mr John Mndebele at any stage?

MR NKONYANE: Never.

MR HATTINGH: When the shooting started, the witness will tell this Committee that she ran across an open piece or an open stretch of ground and that Lindiwe who got killed, carried on running straight down the street in the direction of the Disco.

MR NKONYANE: I think I can put that in this way. I do not know as to whether this Lindiwe who died, ran towards the disco because where this whole thing happened, was right at the disco, at the corner.

The person who ran away from the scene, took a different direction, a bit downwards and the other one, I did not see the second one who ran.

MR HATTINGH: Could you explain if Chris Ngwenya and the two ladies that you were to their side at the time when you started to shoot at them, how would you then explain the fact that both Lindiwe Nkosi who got killed and Thembisile Nkambule who was wounded, were both shot from behind?

MR NKONYANE: At the time that we started shooting, Chris did not fall immediately.

When we continued shooting, he continued running. I think probably that is the time that they got shot because the three of them started running and Chris was amongst them running with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Which direction did they run?

MR NKONYANE: Chris was heading a bit downwards, but he was not able to run for a long while or a long distance.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it doesn't help me to know what is upwards and downwards. Did he run away from you or towards you or sideways?

MR NKONYANE: He was running sideways.

MR HATTINGH: I further wish to put it to you that evidence will be led that one of the perpetrators, either you or Mr Gushu, followed one of the ladies and carried on shooting at her even though Chris Ngwenya was not anywhere near to where this lady was at the time.

MR NKONYANE: I had already explained that there is another one who got shot when Chris was running together with the women, but at the time that Chris had fallen down, we did not continue shooting.

I totally deny that statement. If that was so that person would not have been able to survive, if she was the intended victim, because the gun or the bullet has got much more speed than a human being, so she could not have outrun the bullet if we intended to shoot her.

MR HATTINGH: In particular I would like to put it to you that Thembisile Nkambule was the one who entered a shop, running away from the attackers and that the attackers were in fact following her and only stopped two metres away from the shop after she had entered the shop.

MR NKONYANE: I will explain this to the Committee so that it is very clear.

I think Thembisile knows deep down within her heart, that we never followed her, because we had already carried out the orders. When we were running after her, it was because we were effecting a get away, she was running away from the scene, we were also running away so that we could not get caught, not that we were running after her.

If we were running after her, if we were behind her, we could have been able to kill her if we wanted to.

ADV SANDI: Were you running towards the same direction as her?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I could say that when the people heard the shots, they started to appear from their houses and the shops and we sort of mingled with the people, so as to destroy the spoor, so that they could not follow us and they could not identify us as the killers.

We mingled with the people towards the same direction.

ADV SANDI: It is not very clear to me. Do you mean to say that you were going in different directions, that is on the one hand yourself and Mr Gushu and Nkambule?

MR NKONYANE: Gushu and myself were running towards the same direction and the others were in front of us, and some got scattered into different directions.

MR HATTINGH: In fact the witnesses will say that you followed Thembisile Nkambule to the shop and when she entered the shop, you stopped approximately ten metres away from the shop and then turned around, but prior to that, you in fact shot at her.

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, this very same question was Mr Hattingh's last question, except for the fact that it now no longer is two metres, but ten metres.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I never said two metres, I said ten metres.

CHAIRPERSON: You intended to say ten, you did say two.

MR HATTINGH: I accept that, but the question is that you were not just running away from the scene and in the same direction as Thembisile Nkambule, you were following her, stopped ten metres away from the shop and then turned around when Thembisile had reached the safety of the shop.

MR NKONYANE: That is not true at all. The truth of the matter is that I am the doer, I committed the deed and I've got nothing to loose. What I want to tell the Committee is the truth and it happened as I had described it.

I would not have time to come and sit here and come and tell a bunch of lies. I think if you were in my position, you would realise the fact that I had just done this deed and I had to effect a get away. I as not going to wait to get caught so we ran towards the same direction and that is the direction of the shops.

Maybe she took it that we were following her, but that was not the case.

MR HATTINGH: Just to clarify the issue, when you say you ran in the direction of the shops, would that be the same direction as the disco or would that be the opposite direction?

MR NKONYANE: We were running towards the direction of the shops and what I know is that we were running sideways towards the left, that is from the shopping centre where we committed our mission or where we carried out our mission.

MR HATTINGH: The question was at the time when you were running in the direction of the shops, would that be the opposite direction to the disco or would it be the same direction?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, first of all do you know where the disco is?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you run towards the disco, in the disco's direction or in the opposite direction to the disco?

MR NKONYANE: From the disco towards another direction.

MR HATTINGH: I then put it to you that after having stopped at the shops, approximately ten metres away from the shops, you turned around and then ran in the direction of the disco.

MR NKONYANE: I beg to differ because it is not so.

MR HATTINGH: I don't know whether I have already covered this particular issue, but if I did just tell me, were you aware of the fact that there were other problems between Chris Ngwenya and Mr John Mndebele leading to Mr Mndebele laying a charge with the Police on the Saturday, the day before the killing of Chris Ngwenya?

MR NKONYANE: No, I didn't know that.

MR HATTINGH: Then lastly I would like to put it to you that from my instructions it would appear that you intentionally shot at the two ladies with the intention of killing them, and that it was not only by mistake that you hit them while aiming for Mr Chris Ngwenya?

MR NKONYANE: That is not correct.

MR HATTINGH: As well I would like to put it to you the witness will also say that when she and Chris Ngwenya as well as Lindiwe Nkosi came down the street, Chris Ngwenya was in fact walking on the side of the group and that Lindiwe Nkosi was in the middle of the group?

MR NKONYANE: That is not correct.

MR HATTINGH: Lastly, could you assist the Committee, until approximately what time, or are you still resident in Ermelo?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: During the period following the killing of Chris Ngwenya, did you remain resident in Ermelo?

MR NKONYANE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Can you give any indication as to approximately when the conflict became, the extent thereof was becoming lesser and lesser?

MR NKONYANE: I would say that the violence did not come to an end. Instead it continued. People were dying, others getting injured.

MR HATTINGH: What was the position in 1993?

MR NKONYANE: The situation was better and the violence had subsided.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir, no questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, have you got any re-examination?

MR PATEL: No questions Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL.

ADV SANDI: Mr Nkonyane, let us go back to the scene where this shooting occurred. When you positioned yourselves in the manner which you described, whose suggestion or decision was this that you should so position yourselves?

MR NKONYANE: We were conferring.

ADV SANDI: Whose decision or suggestion was it that Gushu should be the first person to open fire?

MR NKONYANE: I said that because I was standing behind.

ADV SANDI: Where did you go after shooting Chris Ngwenya and the persons who were in his company?

MR NKONYANE: Would you please repeat the question?

ADV SANDI: From the point where you shot Mr Ngwenya and the two girls who were in his company, where did you go?

MR NKONYANE: We went to the place where we stayed.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any discussion about what had happened?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, we did after having carried out the mission. But then it wasn't something serious really.

ADV SANDI: Okay thank you. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkonyane, are you the brother of the previous witness?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I would say that we are related in so far as surnames are concerned because we share the surname and therefore we share the same respect.

CHAIRPERSON: You seem to be very angry, am I correct?

MR NKONYANE: That is not correct. That is my nature, there are times that my facial expression is such that that you cannot look at me when I talk to you.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you feel about what you have done?

MR NKONYANE: I feel very sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still in Ermelo, are you stationed in Ermelo?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you now officially in government?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, I would say that I am working for the government officially, but I am not within the South African National Defence Force.

CHAIRPERSON: One of your duties as an official or employee of the government, is to ensure as best you can, harmonious living within the country, is that so?

MR NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Not only is that your duty as a government official, but it should be your moral obligation as well, would you agree?

MR NKONYANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In particular in this area, the strife that we have been hearing about, listening to, can only be described as tragic. Would you agree?

MR NKONYANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you willing to do to rectify the position, such that the people of this area live as I understand it, the way they used to and the way the ought to live?

MR NKONYANE: I would say here before this Commission that I am prepared to reconcile with people to restore the tranquillity that prevailed here before the violence.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think you can participate in that?

MR NKONYANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you willing to do everything you can to attain the peace and tranquillity that you talk of?

MR NKONYANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think it is a good idea to do that to get this tranquillity and peace?

MR NKONYANE: It is a good idea and an open mind.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you think can be done to avoid a repetition of what has gone by?

MR NKONYANE: I must participate in whatever is happening within this community, so that there is no division as was the case before. We were being set against each other as a result of a third force. I am prepared to work hand in hand with the community or people and the victims who suffered through the experiences, and I also must make it clear that I would like to appeal to them so that they come down, indicate to them that myself and my colleagues are not animals. We are human beings, we were just forced by circumstances.

The part that I play here in this community is very important, because I am working hand in hand with the Police. I am working for the Community Policing Forum. I am not into violence really.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.

MR NKONYANE: Thank you.

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 29-07-1998

MATTER: BLACK CATS

DAY: 8

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CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Patel?

MR PATEL: May it please you Mr Chairman, I beg leave to call the next applicant, Mr J.J. Mabena.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, exactly what does Mr Mabena apply for?

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, basically this applicant seeks amnesty for the fact that he was asked for advice regarding the violence in the area. Part of his advice consisted of telling them to set up Self Defence Units firstly.

CHAIRPERSON: With I assume, a lawful intention on his part?

MR PATEL: I don't think it could be lawful because setting up Self Defence Units at the time, or even now, wouldn't be a lawful activity.

CHAIRPERSON: What law does it violate? I believe for some reason or other there is thousands of what they call Neighbourhood Watches, that can't certainly be regarded as unlawful?

ADV SANDI: Self Preservation Mr Patel, sorry, isn't that the first law of nature?

MR PATEL: It most certainly is sir. The point of fact here is the following, we know that the Self Defence Units in the area, did illegal things.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that now. You say that he gave advice on establishing Self Defence Units. I am asking you whether when he did give the advice of establishing Self Defence Units, were those Self Defence Units suggested to conduct as far as he was concerned, lawful actions or did he envisage what eventually happened when he gave the advice?

MR PATEL: I think the latter is more appropriate.

CHAIRPERSON: What exactly, which crimes? The problem I do have at this stage and I am not stuck with that decision, I must add, is that it is precedent to which I am not bound, it indicates that you can't get blanket amnesty, but only in respect of specific events, crimes committed.

Hence I ask the question because I see in your schedule, I think it is on page 20, the proposed witness applies for complicity to commit acts of violence against third force elements in general.

This does give me problems because at the end of the time, if we are inclined to grant amnesty, then - or refuse amnesty, then we must to it in respect of particular acts, particular crimes. In other words there is no such thing as granting amnesty for crimes you may have committed. The order can't read that way.

MR PATEL: I think the way it is set out in the schedule, is probably too broad. I think ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well, wouldn't you like to skip this witness then and give you an opportunity to set about restoring the obvious problems and when the opportunity arises, to put him on the stand as it were, and indicate to us all exactly what he is applying for. That is a mere suggestion unless you feel confident of handling it now.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman, I think I will take your advice and proceed on that basis.

CHAIRPERSON: When you do so, I don't know when you are going to be ready to recall him, would you give the other representatives an indication. I don't think it is going to have any effect time wise on their preparation, because I am sure they prepared in whatever way necessary on the events that he made mention, unless you are going to get a new event out of him, I am not too sure.

In that case, then he can stand down and you can proceed with the next witness.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 29-07-1998

MATTER: BLACK CATS

DAY: 8

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MR PATEL: I beg leave to call Mr Livingstone Lukhele.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lukhele, what language would you prefer to use?

MR LUKHELE: I would speak Zulu.

LIVINGSTONE M. LUKHELE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL: Mr Lukhele, where were you born?

MR LUKHELE: I was born at Ermelo.

MR PATEL: Have you lived all your life in Ermelo?

MR LUKHELE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: At the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, what was your occupation?

MR LUKHELE: I was not employed.

MR PATEL: And at that time, were you a member of any political organisation?

MR LUKHELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Now, according to the schedule ...

CHAIRPERSON: Which political party was that?

MR PATEL: I beg your pardon, which political party did you belong to?

MR LUKHELE: African National Congress.

MR PATEL: Were you an office bearer or just an ordinary member?

MR LUKHELE: An ordinary member.

MR PATEL: According to the schedule on page 22, you claim amnesty for firstly the murder of Obed Nhlabathi, do you confirm that?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: That occurred in August 1992? You also claim amnesty for the murder of Bhe Malinga in October 1993, is that correct?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: Thirdly you claim amnesty for the attempted murder of unknown members of the South African Police in November 1993, is that correct?

MR LUKHELE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: And finally you claim amnesty for the illegal possession of firearms and ammunition. Is that correct?

MR LUKHELE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: Mr Patel, how do we solve our problem with unknown members of the South African Police? We don't know names and we don't know numbers.

I don't ask this question because I think you've got a problem, I just want to know how we are going to phrase in the event of us granting amnesty, how are we going to phrase that because if for example there were five Policemen, then we grant amnesty because he says there were four. Can he be prosecuted for the fifth one and if he is prosecuted, who is that fifth one?

MR PATEL: I would like to have said that that is the Committee's problem, but ...

CHAIRPERSON: I told you the other day, we can pass the ball well enough. We just refuse amnesty.

MR PATEL: What I would like to say is the evidence will be led that this particular incident was a shoot-out with Policemen, that the applicant was involved in and perhaps instead of granting amnesty if amnesty is going to be granted, rather than mentioning the number of Policemen involved, rather to mention the particular incident, on that date, this is what happened and for that particular offence.

CHAIRPERSON: And perhaps cultured in terms of all the Policemen who were involved in that particular incident?

Maybe, I will have to give it some thought.

ADV BOSMAN: Question Mr Patel, perhaps you should also look at the particular statutory crimes relating to political violence at the time, that may be able to assist you.

That is also just a suggestion, I am not saying it is necessarily so.

CHAIRPERSON: I see in his application here, perhaps your Attorney might be able to help you, she, I understand it is, it looks like her handwriting, as it is the case with the other applicants gone by already, question 9(c)(iv), page 135, any other information which assist in identifying and locating victims, if the South African Police in Ermelo could assist, I am not too sure, maybe that is the answer, I don't know.

MR PATEL: I will certainly look into it and see if she can assist in any of it Mr Chairman.

Thank you. Let's deal firstly with the murder of Obed Nhlabathi. This is the gentleman that was killed in the hospital, am I correct?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: What was your motivation with regard to the killing of Obed?

MR LUKHELE: He was killed for political reasons.

MR PATEL: Was he killed because of an express instruction received from anybody?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, there were instructions, but the instructions were not direct.

MR PATEL: Could you tell the Committee what instructions you had received?

MR LUKHELE: It was an implied order that I received.

MR PATEL: Yes, and what was the implication? What was told to you?

MR LUKHELE: As a member of the SDU, my duty was to protect members of the community so that we could restore peace.

MR PATEL: Who gave you this instruction?

MR LUKHELE: This came from Mr Gushu during our discussion.

MR PATEL: Now, did you know Mr Nhlabathi prior to his death?

MR LUKHELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Who was he?

MR LUKHELE: He was a member of Inkatha.

MR PATEL: Had he been identified by anybody as being a trouble maker?

MR LUKHELE: We already knew that he was one of the persons perpetrating the violence, ourselves as the community were conducting our own research.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, not that it is a requirement in which absence the application could be fatal, I am not suggesting that, but where in his statement does he give the details as to what happened in the hospital? I don't seem to find it.

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, at some stage and I think most appropriately at the stage of argument, I will have to address the Committee with regard to what is contained in this statements, why there were two background statements, etc, etc.

CHAIRPERSON: I accept that. If you remember when Khaba gave evidence, this witness became a central figure, not a central figure, but he became or his actions became a feature of what occurred in the hospital. For what it is worth, I don't know whether this is going to effect our findings at the end of the day, I haven't discussed it with my colleagues yet, but there was an issue of whether he was stabbed or shot.

At some time I think Khaba said well if he was stabbed, I don't know about it, but Livingstone may be able to shed light on that and when one looks at both original form and the supplementary statement, I am not too sure whether it is (indistinct), on page 134, he claims to have stabbed somebody but the details are not too clear.

That is the closest it comes.

MR PATEL: I don't want to give evidence for the applicant, but the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe it will help to ask him and place it before us.

MR PATEL: Yes, I will get there Mr Chairman. Mr Lukhele, your act of assisting in the murder of Mr Nhlabathi, where did that occur?

MR LUKHELE: It started at Extension and went as far as the hospital at Ermelo.

MR PATEL: I think it is probably necessary for you to tell us what happened in the Extension? At the Extension, what happened?

MR LUKHELE: When we went out to the Extension, we were going to Bongani's grandmother.

MR PATEL: Could you just tell the Committee who do you mean when you say we?

MR LUKHELE: I am referring to Bongani Khaba, myself and Dumsani.

MR PATEL: Yes, carry on.

MR LUKHELE: Before we arrived there, we met some people on the road and some people told us that they had a problem at the disco, they were being troubled by the Black Cats and we took the route that would go passed the disco and on our way, one of the Black Cat members came and he was going to walk passed us towards the disco. I think he must have arrived there first and told them that we were coming.

I found myself at the hands of another Black Cat member who was handling me. I was having a jungle knife and I freed myself with this knife, after which myself and Bongani fled, seeing that they had seen us first.

Gunshots were fired during which time we had already started fleeing. That is when we came across Obed. I don't know really how we came to meet him.

MR PATEL: Who shot first, do you know?

MR LUKHELE: No, I wouldn't know because I didn't have a gun. I therefore wouldn't know where came this gun shot.

MR PATEL: You were moving away from the disco and you came across Obed, is that correct?

MR LUKHELE: We came across Obed on our way from the disco, but at the time we didn't realise it was him because of the distance. I only realised it was Obed when we met him at the hospital.

MR PATEL: When you came across this person at the disco, did you see Khaba doing any shooting?

MR LUKHELE: You mean when we met Obed?

MR PATEL: Yes?

MR LUKHELE: I saw him shooting at the hospital, but I didn't see him shooting at the disco.

MR PATEL: After the incident at the disco, what happened then? Were any of you injured from the shots that were fired?

MR LUKHELE: Dumsani was shot in the leg, I think his left thigh and we had to rush him home, because he too resided at the Extension. We took him there from whence he was to be taken to hospital.

MR PATEL: Yes, and where did you take him to?

MR LUKHELE: We took him to his home, his parents' home.

MR PATEL: Can you tell the Committee how it came to be that you went to the hospital thereafter?

MR LUKHELE: When we left Extension, we went to the Wesselton township where we used to live and informed Mrs Nkosi what had transpired. She rushed to the hospital to establish what was happening about Dumi, she came back with the information that Black Cats were on their mission to finish him off and we rushed to the hospital.

MR PATEL: Finish who off?

MR LUKHELE: Dumsani, the same person who was shot on the thigh.

MR PATEL: I see. So you then went to the hospital with Khaba, is that correct?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: And tell the Committee what happened when you got there?

MR LUKHELE: When we arrived at the hospital, we spoke to him and he did indicate that yes, such people were here at the hospital.

Thereafter Bongani Khaba pretended as if he is one of the Black Cat members saying to one of the nurses that he wanted to see Obed.

MR PATEL: Yes, and then?

MR LUKHELE: They gave us the ward number and we proceeded towards the ward, we found him there and we ...

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think was going to happen?

MR LUKHELE: Would you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think was going to happen there when you people went?

MR LUKHELE: I thought that we would meet some of the Black Cats there and we would be in a position to protect Dumi.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Khaba not discuss this issue with you when he told the nurses that he was a member of the Black Cats and he wanted to go see Obed?

MR LUKHELE: No, he did not. I was busy talking to Dumi at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, is this a convenient stage?

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.

ON RESUMPTION:

LIVINGSTONE M. LUKHELE: (still under oath)

EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL: (continued) Mr Lukhele, I think we were at the stage where Obed had ascertained from one of the nursing sisters to where, I mean Khaba had ascertained from one of the nursing sisters as to where Obed was. What happened then?

CHAIRPERSON: Exactly what did he ask the nurse?

MR LUKHELE: Bongani Khaba asked the nurse where Obed was, in which ward he was because the hospital is big.

He was pretending to be a Black Cat member.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know Obed was in the hospital?

MR LUKHELE: We knew when we arrived at the hospital because Mrs Nkosi had already told us.

CHAIRPERSON: What did she tell you?

MR LUKHELE: In her explanation special reference to Dumi, she indicated that Dumi was in danger now that he was in hospital, because the Black Cats were also bringing their member, Obed to the hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman. Now, having obtained this information, what transpired then?

MR LUKHELE: As I have explained, we arrived at the hospital and we did what we could to get to his bed, hospital bed. We also discovered that there was another ANC member apart from Dumi who was, I think he had a broken leg.

MR PATEL: Did you and Khaba get to the ward where Obed was?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: Please tell the Committee what happened in the ward.

MR LUKHELE: On entering the ward, we realised that there were many beds. We located him and Mr Khaba started shooting him.

MR PATEL: Was Mr Khaba successful in his attempts?

MR LUKHELE: As a soldier Obed was trying to duck and dive, but he could not because obviously the bullet is faster than he was.

MR PATEL: What part did you play? Did you do anything?

MR LUKHELE: Yes. I was stabbing him.

MR PATEL: Could you tell the Committee how many times you stabbed him?

MR LUKHELE: I do not remember. It may have been twice or three times.

CHAIRPERSON: Where on his body did you stab him?

MR LUKHELE: He was trying to block the knife as I was stabbing him. I think I stabbed him on the shoulders.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not sure you stabbed him? You may have stabbed at him, did you inflict any injuries?

MR LUKHELE: I think I succeeded because I was not in the position to distinguish between the blood that came out as a result of the gunshot or the stabbing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you stab him after he was shot or before?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, I stabbed him after he had been shot.

CHAIRPERSON: In which part of his body was he shot?

MR LUKHELE: I could not see some of the gashes, I was just stabbing.

CHAIRPERSON: Where about in his body did the bullets penetrate?

MR LUKHELE: The obvious ones were in the hands, where blood was oozing and there was another blood oozing from his head, but I didn't know where about in the head. There were no signs of bullet holes on his face.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say despite being shot, he was able to ward off stabbing?

MR LUKHELE: He had not died at the time when I was stabbing him, because he was trying to block as I was stabbing him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Patel?

ADV BOSMAN: Did you see the firearm which Mr Khaba used?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: What type of firearm was it?

MR LUKHELE: It was a 9 mm.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you have any idea where he got it from, did he ever tell you?

MR LUKHELE: We never discussed that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you stab him?

MR LUKHELE: We were trying to make sure that Dumi is protected so that his fellow Inkatha members should not find him at the hospital, so that we could protect our ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason you stabbed him?

MR LUKHELE: That is not the only reason. And also that he was problematic to the community, having been a member of Inkatha and it had already been discussed because he is problematic, he too should be eliminated.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were aware of that plan?

MR LUKHELE: As I have explained, ourselves as the youth within the ANC were conducting our own research so as to identify people who were problematic, apart from going to Mzwandile to get information about people who were problematic.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman. Apart from Obed, was anybody else identified as being problematic?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, it was Bongani Malinga.

MR PATEL: Anybody else you can remember?

MR LUKHELE: There is another third one, but I cannot recall his name.

MR PATEL: Let's look at the second offence, the murder of Bhe Malinga. Who was he?

MR LUKHELE: He was a Policeman.

MR PATEL: Could you just briefly explain to the Committee how this offence was, the circumstances of this offence?

MR LUKHELE: How should I explain it, on the day of the offence?

MR PATEL: How did it happen?

MR LUKHELE: We met him at Mdluli Street at Wesselton during the day, around twelve o'clock. He was headed towards the taxi direction, we don't know where he was headed for. We managed to discover that he was carrying a gun.

We needed the gun that he was carrying.

MR PATEL: Who was with you?

MR LUKHELE: I was with Bongani Khaba and Basil Dhlamini.

MR PATEL: Could you tell the Committee how you, did you manage to get his gun?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, we managed.

MR PATEL: How did you manage to do this?

MR LUKHELE: Bhe was trained and he was a member of the SAP and that obviously made him an enemy of the ANC. I had to shoot him. I shot him once and when I tried the second time, the gun jammed and Basil also shot him on the head. That is when he fell down.

MR PATEL: In committing this offence, were you acting under any orders?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that offence is part and parcel of the order, because it was indicated to us already that our enemy is Inkatha and the Police.

MR PATEL: Now, the third offence, the attempted murder of the unknown South African Police members in November 1993. Obviously you are unable to identify any victims, but could you just shortly explain the circumstances of this event?

MR LUKHELE: On that day, we were at Mndebele's shop, we spoke to Mr Mndebele. I would also explain that at the time myself and Bongani Khaba and Pelele Shongwe were being wanted by the Police.

As we were at the shop, one boy came in running, telling us that there was a Police convoy towards the shop direction. Myself and Basil fled, Pelele remaining behind. We took a different direction and as we were observing what was happening, they came out with one person who was apparently being forced into their kombi.

We thought that the person who was being arrested, was Pelele because it was a distance from where we stood. Myself and Basil started shooting with an aim of destructing the Police, so that they should not take the person into the kombi.

MR PATEL: Did the Policemen fire back?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, they fired back at us, but then they had a bigger fire power and they also had automatic assault rifles and we formed a semi-circle. We took a different street so that we were on the other side above them.

We came across another group of Police as we were doing that. We went to a shack during which time we were surrounded by the Police. We exchanged gunfire with the Police.

Basil came out of the shack in which we were trying to flee. That is when he was shot and he died. Myself and Bongani realised that we no longer had ammunition and we only had one gun. The other one was with Basil and we decided to surrender.

MR PATEL: What motivated you and your fellow comrades to commit this offence?

MR LUKHELE: All of these happened as a result of political reasons. Police were seen as the enemy of the ANC because of their conduct towards the ANC members and their involvement with Inkatha members.

MR PATEL: Did you see this particular offence that you committed, as being part of the general instructions that you had received?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, I saw it as part and parcel of the general instruction which was broad. It was like an umbrella inclusive of Inkatha and the Police.

MR PATEL: You were a member of a Self Defence Unit, is that correct?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, let's just get clarity here. Did Khaba make application for the murder of Malinga?

MR BLACK: If that is addressed to me Mr Chairman, at this stage no, I will have to take instructions on this. I will ask that the matter stand down, my cross-examination just stand over, I need instructions on that aspect. It is the first time that I have heard of it.

MR PATEL: Who were the members of your Self Defence Unit?

MR LUKHELE: Those that I still remember very well were myself, Bongani Khaba, Pelele Shongwe and Charlie, including Basil Dhlamini as well as Bheza. There were many of us but we were not together most of the time.

I was most of the time in the company of Pelele and Bongani.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Patel, can I just come in here. I just want to get the complete picture, I am just taking you back a little now.

Tell me, the gun which you used to shoot Malinga with, was that the same gun which was used to shoot Obed with or which gun was that?

MR LUKHELE: These are different guns.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did you get this gun from?

MR LUKHELE: After having received the command, the fact that we should arm ourselves, anybody including thugs that we identified as not belonging to the ANC, if such a person had a gun, an illegal gun, we would take it.

Even if we had an opportunity to take guns from Police, we would do exactly that.

ADV BOSMAN: The question I am asking you is where did you get the gun from which you used to shoot Malinga with?

MR LUKHELE: I got it from a tavern at Wesselton, from a person who was drunk, carrying this gun.

MR PATEL: The fourth offence for which you claim amnesty is the illegal possession of firearms and ammunition, is this the same gun that we are talking about, that you took off this drunk person at the tavern?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is the same gun.

MR PATEL: What was your motivation in taking the gun off him?

MR LUKHELE: My aim was to carry out my mission as member of the SDU.

MR PATEL: As a member of the ANC, how did you view the situation in Wesselton, Ermelo at the time that you committed these offences?

MR LUKHELE: The situation here was unbearable because there was violence. Any level headed person would not have tolerated what was happening.

There was shooting taking place. Some people were getting injured right before the eyes of other people and this was intolerable.

MR PATEL: In committing any of the offences for which you have claimed amnesty, did you act out of any personal malice or financial gain?

MR LUKHELE: No, that is not the case.

MR PATEL: If we can just go back to the shoot-out with the South African Police, can you tell the Committee when exactly that incident took place?

MR LUKHELE: The shoot-out between the Police happened on the 11th of November 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would it have taken place?

MR LUKHELE: It happened at Wesselton.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you be more particular?

MR LUKHELE: It happened at the first township in Wesselton, the problem is that there is no specific name for that area, whereas the name Wesselton is inclusive, it covers all the townships in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that, but I want to know how to identify this incident, because there is no names of Policemen and all I need perhaps is a geographical indication as to where the incident occurred for which you are making amnesty application.

MR PATEL: Perhaps if I could assist Mr Chairman, Mr Mndebele's shop, where the shooting commenced, do you know the name of the street?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, may the speaker please repeat the question.

MR PATEL: Mr Mndebele's shop where the shooting incident first began, do you know the name of the street?

MR LUKHELE: Yes. The shop is at the corner of Makhwaza and Mabileza Streets.

MR PATEL: And where the shooting finally came to an end at the shack, do you know the name of the street where the shack is located?

MR LUKHELE: No. There are no street names in that area, because people just put up their shacks as well as they wish.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just repeat the names of the streets please?

MR LUKHELE: Corner of Makhwaza and Mabileza Streets.

CHAIRPERSON: What date was this?

MR LUKHELE: It was on the 11th of November 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR PATEL: Were you prosecuted for any of the offences in respect of which you claim amnesty?

MR LUKHELE: I was prosecuted yes, for some of the offences.

MR PATEL: All right, let's start at the beginning. Were you prosecuted for the murder of Obed Nhlabathi?

MR LUKHELE: No. I was not even charged for that one.

MR PATEL: Were you prosecuted for the murder of Mr Bhe Malinga?

MR LUKHELE: No, I was not charged for that one as well.

MR PATEL: Were you prosecuted for the attempted murder of the unknown South African Police members?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, I went to trial for that one.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened in the trial?

MR LUKHELE: The case came to an end, I was not charged or I was not sentenced.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you acquitted or what?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, I can say I was acquitted because that was the one offence that made it difficult for me to be granted a bail.

MR PATEL: Did anybody give evidence, did anybody talk at the trial?

MR LUKHELE: The Police were making it difficult for us to be granted bail, because we were kept in the cell from the 11th of November 1993 so that there came the Regional from Pretoria and it discovered that there was not enough evidence to sentence us and we were therefore acquitted.

CHAIRPERSON: You appeared in court and you went on trial and you were found not guilty?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: Does the same apply to the last offence for which you claim amnesty, namely the illegal possession of firearms and ammunition?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: I have no questions, thank you.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KEMP.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: I don't have any questions, but I have a problem with something. I don't know if the application form is correct, but on page 138 the person received 28 years. Is that Mr Lukhele? This bothers me because the application forms are vague?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in prison at the moment?

MR LUKHELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you been serving any prison sentence?

MR LUKHELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you scheduled to serve any prison sentence?

MR LUKHELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: It would seem that paragraph was filled in wrong.

MS VAN DER WALT: It would seem so, thank you. I have no further questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got questions?

MR HATTINGH: Yes, I do have, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on, I want to find out something. Mr Black, what is your position now?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, as far as the issue relating to which I have been taken by surprise, Mr Malinga is concerned, I will need to take further instructions from Mr Khaba on that issue and there are other questions which I would put, so I would respectfully submit that if I could deal with it all after Mr Hattingh's matter and then put it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh may surprise us and ask two questions, then what?

MR BLACK: Then I would request an opportunity to take further instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, Mr Hattingh, the floor is yours.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Are we proceeding? Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Lukhele, you indicated and you gave names of the people who were part of your SDU. If you could just repeat the names for me, I would appreciate it.

MR LUKHELE: Bongani Khaba, Livingstone Lukhele.

MR HATTINGH: That is yourself?

MR LUKHELE: Yes. Gita Mnisi.

MR HATTINGH: Gita Mnisi?

MR LUKHELE: Yes. Charlie, Basil Dhlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: Does Charlie have a surname?

MR LUKHELE: That is his nickname, I think he is David Majola.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he an applicant?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to the Majola that is going to come and testify still as Charlie?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is the same person.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: You mentioned four people now, are there any others?

MR LUKHELE: No. The ones that were close to me are the ones that I still remember.

MR HATTINGH: You also mentioned a Pelele previously?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is Pelele Lawrence Shongwe. He is also one of the applicants for amnesty.

MR HATTINGH: From this group that you mentioned, the group of five it is Khaba who is an applicant, Majola who is an applicant and Shongwe who is an applicant.

MR LUKHELE: Yes, this includes Gita Mnisi.

MR HATTINGH: And Gita Mnisi? Just to confirm, I understood your evidence to be that there was no direct instruction for the killing of Obed?

MR LUKHELE: If you are talking about a direct order, yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: That there was no direct order from any ANC command that Obed was to be killed, is that correct?

MR LUKHELE: I would like to explain that when there were members of the SDU who were instructed to protect and this we did under fighting circumstances.

This instruction therefore implies that killing is possible and where possible, win over people to the ANC so that they do not become problems. Therefore the instructions were not strictly that we should go out there and kill, we had to look at the situation. If the situation warranted, therefore we would intervene.

MR HATTINGH: As far as the second incident is concerned, that is the one of Bhe Malinga, I understood your evidence to be that he was killed because he was an IFP member or Inkatha member, is that correct?

MR PATEL: Objection Mr Chairman, the evidence is that Bhe Malinga was a Policeman. In any event, as I understand Mr Hattingh, he doesn't have any clients who represent Bhe Malinga.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, the purpose of this cross-examination is to try to find out on what kind of motive did they rely when they killed someone, whether it was purely on the basis of his connection to being an Inkatha member, being a Policemen or whether there were in fact further reason required before they would go ahead and kill someone.

CHAIRPERSON: He has answered your questions of that nature in respect of Obed, isn't it?

Are you representing the family of Malinga as well or not?

MR HATTINGH: No, I don't. Only with regard to Obed's family.

CHAIRPERSON: On what basis would then be able to ask questions in respect of Malinga when you have already got the answer to similar questions in respect to Obed?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, as I have already indicated, I am trying to test the motives of this applicant, whether he in fact acted at the time with a political motive, and I think it would be, my submission would be for him not to make full disclosure with regard to other incidents where he together with the same people, committed the same kind of crime in the same period, that that would be somewhat artificial.

CHAIRPERSON: You know Mr Hattingh, we are going to go through the same thing again. When you appear on behalf of interested parties, then you deal with their interest only. If there is nobody who is interested in the Malinga issue, that is that. I mean it is tough luck, there is nothing we can do about that.

But to go on an investigation of that sort, does create problems for the other side.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I will retract that question, I will put it differently. Mr Lukhele, from your evidence it would appear and you can assist me if I am wrong, that at times your decision to kill someone, was based on the fact that he belonged to Inkatha, is that correct?

MR LUKHELE: Are you saying if a person is a member of Inkatha or the SAP, I would say it was already known that they were enemies. I have also indicated that there was already an implied order to the effect that the IFP and the SAP were the enemy, so that if such people were threatening the community, it was therefore our responsibility to eliminate them.

MR HATTINGH: Would you at the time have considered that someone was threatening the community purely on the basis that he was a member of Inkatha or did he have to do something more than to be a member of Inkatha before you would kill him?

MR LUKHELE: I would say to Mr Hattingh, Bongani was Inkatha, Charlie was Inkatha and Basil was Inkatha. They came to us and we discussed, we did not kill them. We were not going around killing people because they were just IFP members.

MR HATTINGH: Were you aware of the fact that Obed Nhlabathi and Mdudusi Mutau was awaiting trial, they were arrested and they were awaiting trial for the murder of Khaba's mother?

MR LUKHELE: No, I didn't know that.

MR HATTINGH: Were you aware of the fact that Khaba's mother was murdered some six weeks, or that she got killed some six weeks prior to the killing of Obed?

MR LUKHELE: Even though I didn't know, I don't know the length of time, I knew about the death of Khaba's mother.

MR HATTINGH: Did you and Khaba discuss the fact that his mother got killed?

MR LUKHELE: Discussing how?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, the killing of Obed, was that the plan of revenge for Obed suspected of having killed Khaba's mother?

MR LUKHELE: Chairperson, we learnt that the Black Cats are the ones that attacked Khaba's mother and they just gave us a plural number as to the people who attacked Khaba's mother.

MR HATTINGH: I put it to you that in fact you assisted Khaba in the killing of Obed, not because Obed was a danger to the community and that you wanted to protect the community, but because of revenge for the killing of Khaba's mother.

MR LUKHELE: If that is how you see it, that is wrong. That is not correct.

MR HATTINGH: When you went passed the disco that night, could you just explain, were you on your way to the disco initially or was it by chance that you ended up at the disco?

MR LUKHELE: Our main objective was to go and see Bongani's grandmother.

MR HATTINGH: Why then did you go to the disco?

MR LUKHELE: As I have explained, we came across certain people on our way. People who indicated to us that they were being troubled by the Black Cats at the disco and that is when we rushed to the disco to find out what was happening.

MR HATTINGH: Did you find any problems at the disco when you got there?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, because people ended up getting injured and we too, ran away.

MR HATTINGH: I put it to you that the witness that will be called in this regard, will say that there were no problems at the disco prior to your and Khaba's arrival.

The only problems that there were, were caused by you when your crowd started shooting.

MR LUKHELE: This is very strange, how could I have shot Dumsani who was my friend. I could not have taken him and shot him at the disco.

MR HATTINGH: Did you see Obed at the disco at all?

MR LUKHELE: Things happened so fast and the lighting in that area is so poor, there was just no way one could identify people, fast as things were happening.

MR HATTINGH: Had you seen Obed earlier that day?

MR LUKHELE: No, I did not.

MR HATTINGH: Is it then correct to say that you only saw Obed for the very first time that day, when you that night went to hospital and found him in his hospital bed?

MR LUKHELE: I thought your question was whether I saw him before on that day or not. Would you please explain. Are you referring to that day here or what, would you please explain.

MR HATTINGH: Yes.

MR LUKHELE: I don't know what you are agreeing to, because you have just asked me about that day or other days, I don't know, I don't understand.

MR HATTINGH: I haven't been talking about any other days, I am talking about the day that the events took place which led to Obed's death.

Have you seen Obed on that day prior to your killing him, or assisting to kill him in his hospital bed?

MR LUKHELE: I am very sorry, I didn't get your question well.

I didn't see him on that day before I saw him at the hospital.

MR HATTINGH: Did you personally take part in any fighting at the disco earlier that evening?

MR LUKHELE: The one part that I played, was running away.

MR HATTINGH: As far as I can remember, you in your evidence in chief said that you took out your knife of some sort, some kind. What was the position with regard to that?

MR LUKHELE: I used the knife so that I could clear my way to run away.

MR HATTINGH: Could you say whether any of the people involved in the fighting at the disco that night, were under the influence of alcohol? Either your group or the other group?

MR LUKHELE: I would not tell whether they were drunk or not.

ADV SANDI: Did you at any stage Mr Lukhele, see this people consuming alcohol?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, the people who were in the disco, most of them were the members of the community, therefore I knew them.

ADV SANDI: Did you see any one of the two groups that were fighting, that is your group and the other side, any one of those people consuming alcohol on that day?

MR LUKHELE: No, I couldn't see that.

MR HATTINGH: Your friend who got injured that night, did you personally take him to the hospital or did you only accompany him to his own house?

MR LUKHELE: We took him from the scene, because he couldn't walk, we carried him to his home. He was staying a few streets from the scene. We left him there so that the people in the house could take him to the hospital.

MR HATTINGH: So when you later that night went to the hospital, that would be the first time that you had gone to the hospital that day, when you killed Obed?

MR LUKHELE: I normally go to the hospital to go and visit sick people, that was not my first time to go to the hospital.

MR HATTINGH: Had you been to the hospital earlier that night before going to the hospital to kill Obed?

MR LUKHELE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Where did you see or meet with Mrs Nkosi?

MR LUKHELE: At Mdluli Street.

MR HATTINGH: The report that she made, can you just tell us again, what did she tell you about what was going on at the hospital?

MR LUKHELE: She told me about Dumi's condition and the fact that there were Black Cats who arrived there and tortured Dumi.

MR HATTINGH: What did the Black Cats do to Dumi?

MR LUKHELE: He told me that those people said they were coming back to him again.

MR HATTINGH: Did Mrs Nkosi know that Obed Nhlabathi was already in hospital?

MR LUKHELE: It seemed so because she told us that the people, the Black Cats gang came, they brought Obed and at the same time they went to see Dumi.

MR HATTINGH: Did Mrs Nkosi mention the name of Obed, that he was already in hospital?

MR LUKHELE: Though I can't remember, I am not sure if she did or not. But we never used to call them with their names, we used to refer to them as the Black Cats.

MR HATTINGH: Well, when was the decision made to kill Obed that night?

MR LUKHELE: The decision to kill Obed, I don't know, I can't remember when was it taken, but I think it was done just before he was killed. Just before he got killed.

MR HATTINGH: Was the decision taken on your way to the hospital, or only the moments when you got to his bed and you realised that it was Obed in the bed?

MR LUKHELE: No, on that particular day the decision was already taken, the decision to kill him was already taken at that time.

MR HATTINGH: Was Obed ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, we know that, but on the particular day, when you were on your way to the hospital, the Advocate's question is when you were on your way to the hospital, did you know you were going there to kill Obed or did you only realise that Obed was going to get killed, when you saw him in the bed. Is that the question Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR LUKHELE: Our intention to go to the hospital was not to kill Obed, but it was to protect Dumi. But we got the opportunity as we saw him there.

MR HATTINGH: When you made the enquiries with the staff at the hospital to find out where Obed was, in which ward, did you ask for, were you then already aware of the fact that Obed was in the hospital and did you ask for him in person?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't ask.

MR HATTINGH: Perhaps we could clarify that first. Mr Khaba in his application and his statement said that the two of you asked where Obed was. Can you - what are your comments in that regard?

MR PATEL: Just to also be fair to the witness Mr Chairman, Mr Hattingh should tell the witness that Mr Khaba in his evidence said to this Committee that he was the one that did the asking, irrespective of what the form itself says.

CHAIRPERSON: That is so Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Were you present when Khaba asked where Obed was in the hospital?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, I was present.

MR HATTINGH: At that moment, did he ask for Obed by name or what was the position?

CHAIRPERSON: What exactly was his question? Why we ask that question is that we want to know when the nurse was approached, did you or Khaba know that Obed was in hospital?

MR LUKHELE: The nurses from the hospital, the way they asked Khaba, they asked why did the Black Cat come to the hospital but she told them that they brought one of their members. Each and every person who is admitted in the hospital is registered.

CHAIRPERSON: That answer doesn't make any sense to me. It is a simple question, when the nurse was approached by Khaba as you are saying, did he ask where Obed by name was, or did he ask where the Black Cat was or where the Black Cats were?

MR LUKHELE: I don't remember him calling him by his name because he also pretended as a member of the Black Cats. He pretended as if he didn't know who was in hospital, as he also acted as a member of the Black Cats.

MR HATTINGH: It is still not quite clear, but when you went to the ward where you finally found Obed, while going to that ward, did you know that you were going to find Obed, the person Obed, in that ward?

MR LUKHELE: You mean when we were on our way to Obed's ward?

CHAIRPERSON: From the nurse to his ward, did you know who you were going to find in that ward?

MR LUKHELE: All we knew was that there was a Black Cat in there, whether it was Obed or who else, we didn't know, but when we got there, we saw him there.

MR HATTINGH: How long from the time that you entered the ward, did it take until the time that Khaba started shooting at Obed?

MR LUKHELE: It didn't take much, because we just got the person we were looking for.

MR HATTINGH: Did you and Khaba discuss while on your way to Obed's ward that you would kill the person who you were about to find in that ward?

MR LUKHELE: If Dumsani's life was in danger, we had to remove a Black Cat member who was in there, so that when they come to visit their member, our intention was to kill the person who was in there, as long as the person belonged to the Black Cat gang.

MR HATTINGH: So the fact that Obed was killed that night, he was in fact killed for another reason namely that he was in the hospital, not for the fact that he was on the list to be executed?

MR LUKHELE: When you get an opportunity and the order is issued already, you do what the order says when you get the opportunity.

CHAIRPERSON: What the Advocate is saying to you is that before you got into the ward, you had already decided to kill the person who was laying in that bed and you carried no such order to do so?

You had an order to kill Obed, but you people were going to kill whoever was laying in that bed, and you didn't have such order? What do you say about that?

MR LUKHELE: I can say the instruction to kill the person who was in the hospital was already issued, because the person who was in hospital ...

CHAIRPERSON: You had an order to kill Obed. Before you got to that ward, according to what you say, you had already decided to kill that person, whoever you were going to find there in that bed. That is your evidence.

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct because that would cause problems for Silas and Dumsani.

CHAIRPERSON: What the Advocate is posing, propositioning is that you had no order to kill a person who you would find in that bed and that is why you killed Obed, because you have decided to kill anybody in that bed and not because you had an order to kill Obed.

MR LUKHELE: I talk about my instruction again. We were to stop violence, whoever was found in the hospital injured, that means he was participating in the violence, therefore we had to remove that particular person, because he was part and parcel of the violence.

ADV SANDI: Mr Lukhele, if on your way to the hospital, you had met Obed, what would have happened?

MR LUKHELE: We were going to kill him.

ADV SANDI: If on your way to the hospital, you had met any other member of the Black Cats, what would have happened?

MR LUKHELE: In our township, whoever was a member of the Black Cats was there to attack, so whoever belonged to the Black Cats, were to be killed.

ADV SANDI: So you say it mattered to you not whether you encountered this person in the street or in the hospital?

MR LUKHELE: Are you talking about Obed?

ADV SANDI: Yes?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: According to the hospital records, the incident when Obed was killed in his bed, occurred at approximately one o'clock in the morning. Would you agree to that?

MR LUKHELE: I can't remember, it was quite some time ago.

MR HATTINGH: In any event, if it was in fact that it was approximately one o'clock in the morning, was Obed asleep when you entered the ward?

MR LUKHELE: He was asleep.

MR HATTINGH: I further note from the post mortem record that Obed was shot twice through the head. Perhaps I should just state first that earlier that night, Obed's mother came to visit him in the hospital and what she found was that he had, that he was in hospital and he had wounds to his left arm and to his side and no other gunshot wounds. Only his left arm and his side.

But the post mortem ...

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of wounds were those, knife wounds or gunshot wounds?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I think they were gunshot wounds but I will just have to make one hundred percent sure before I make - Mr Chairman, according to the post mortem report there were gunshot wounds to the left forearm.

In any event, according to the post mortem Obed died from two gunshot wounds to the head. Was Obed shot through the head by Khaba while Obed was still asleep, was that the position?

MR LUKHELE: I won't be able to answer because I am not the one who was carrying the firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but you were there, so you can answer.

MR LUKHELE: The problem is this, if a person is shooting, I wouldn't be able to stand in front of that person.

CHAIRPERSON: Come Mr Lukhele, we are not playing games here. You saw the man shot and then you say you stabbed at him. Simple question is, when he was shot, was he asleep or not?

MR LUKHELE: He tried to hide himself, he was not on the bed, he tried to cover himself with the sheets.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume he wasn't sleepwalking?

MR LUKHELE: No, when he saw us ...

CHAIRPERSON: Then he was awake when he was shot?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So why do we struggle to get a simple answer like that? Carry on Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Lukhele, just to clarify this issue, I clearly remember you saying that when the shooting started, Obed was still asleep in his bed.

MR PATEL: That is not my recollection Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: Let's start then, when you got to the ward, you already said that the shooting started very shortly after entering the ward, and shortly after you identified Obed, is that correct?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct but I didn't say he was shot laying on the bed.

MR HATTINGH: When you entered the ward and you identified Obed, was he then asleep on your entering the ward?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Now when you identified him, he was still asleep. How far away from him were you when you identified him while he was still asleep?

MR LUKHELE: Do you mean at the time when he was still asleep, could you please rephrase your question?

MR HATTINGH: You said that you identified him in the ward while he was still asleep. The question is, how far away from Obed were you when you identified him?

MR LUKHELE: I think he was the distance between you and I.

MR HATTINGH: Did you and Khaba then approach Obed?

MR LUKHELE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: At what stage did Obed awake?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, is it in dispute that this witness and Khaba killed Obed?

MR HATTINGH: No Mr Chairman, it is not in dispute.

CHAIRPERSON: Then what is all the details for?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, if for anything, I think the victims or the families of the victims are entitled to full disclosure, if anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me tell you about this full disclosure. Full disclosure is not nitpicking, but substantial disclosure. I don't know if the family or victims or next of kin of the deceased wants to know if he was under the bed or on the side of the bed or in which number ward he was, or how far this witness was from the deceased when he was shot.

The fact of the matter is that these two people assassinated him in the ward. Isn't that it? Carry on.

MR HATTINGH: I am going to leave this subject, all that I perhaps want to know is it would appear that Obed was killed while he was still asleep, it would appear that from short range he received two gunshot wounds to the head. Was he in fact asleep at the time when Khaba started to shoot at him?

MR LUKHELE: Was that question directed to me, do I need to answer or was it just a comment? I did explain that Obed was shot not in a laying position, but he was already getting off from his bed, trying to flee or take cover.

MR HATTINGH: All that I would like then to clarify is at what stage did he wake up then because he was still asleep when you entered the ward?

MR LUKHELE: He was in a laying position, but he was not asleep, so he saw us when we got into the ward, and he tried to get out of bed.

MR HATTINGH: Did you speak to him?

MR LUKHELE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no questions to this witness.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, what is your position?

MR BLACK: As indicated, I need to take instructions before I put anything to this witness from Mr Khaba. I don't think it will be very long.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's see how ten minutes does.

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ON RESUMPTION:

LIVINGSTONE M. LUKHELE: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK: ... take further instructions. Mr Lukhele, I just want to clear something up from the beginning.

You mentioned that you received an order from Mzwandile Gushu, he instructed your SDU and the order which you got was to effectively stabilise the situation or deal with any trouble relating to the Black Cats.

It was without going into the exact words, it was by way of a general order an instruction given to you to ensure that peace gets restored in that community? Is that correct?

MR LUKHELE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: When this general order was given to you and your SDU, was Khaba, Mr Bongani Khaba present?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BLACK: And do you know of any specific order being given by Mr Gushu that specifically Mr Obed Nhlabathi must be killed?

MR LUKHELE: The order that we received was general, it was quite wide and we used to talk with Mr Gushu about these people.

MR BLACK: But do you know of any specific order ever being given by Mr Gushu that a specific person named Obed Nhlabathi must be killed?

MR LUKHELE: No there wasn't.

MR BLACK: Okay. If I may just proceed to the matter relating to your evidence concerning the murder of Mr Bhe Malinga in October of 1993. I have had the opportunity of taking instructions from Mr Khaba and he confirms that he was in fact a member of the SDU of which you were part of and that he did on occasions accompany you, but my instructions are that on this particular occasion relating to Bhe Malinga he didn't take part in the incident or attack as you have described on Bhe Malinga.

MR LUKHELE: Bongani did not take any part on the killing of Bhe.

MR BLACK: But he says, my instructions are further that on that particular incident, he was not there, he wasn't with you people at that time. Is it possible that you could be mistaken?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, it is possible because I spent most of my time with him, about ninety nine percent of my time.

MR BLACK: Is it possible, is his instructions, could that possibly be correct that on that particular occasion, he was not with you?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is highly possible because I explained to Mr Hattingh that when he requested me to count or give him a list of the people who were within the SDU, so he was one of the people that I spent most of my time with, so it is possible that I made a mistaken when I included him.

MR BLACK: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Black, just to ensure that I follow you. When you say the incident, what are you talking about, are you talking about the disco incident?

MR BLACK: No, I am talking about this implication of the murder of Mr Bhe Malinga where - in which this applicant did mention Mr Khaba. Thank you. I have no further questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, any re-examination?

MR PATEL: No Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL.

ADV BOSMAN: You spoke of a Mr Basil Dhlamini who was also with you. If I remember correctly at the time of the incident where the shooting at the Police, what has happened to Mr Dhlamini? What has become of him?

MR LUKHELE: Mr Dhlamini was killed on the very same day by the Police.

ADV BOSMAN: I see. And there is just something I don't understand and that is in relation to Bhe Malinga and Obed. Perhaps my notes are wrong, you must assist me here.

I've got it here that you said that Obed was problematic to the community, it had already been discussed that he should be eliminated and Bhe Malinga was also discussed.

This was before the hospital incident. Have I got it wrong or can you just clarify it?

MR LUKHELE: The person that was referred to or discussed was Obed, but Bhe Malinga fell under the general order that the Police were enemies.

ADV BOSMAN: Don't you remember having said that Malinga was also discussed, don't you remember that?

MR LUKHELE: There are two Malinga's, there is Bongani Malinga who was a member of the Black Cats as well as Bhe Malinga who was a Policeman.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, that clarifies it, it is Bongani Malinga you were referring to. Thank you.

MR LUKHELE: Could I please just explain. Basil Dhlamini, his other name is Bongani. Maybe that might have created the confusion.

ADV SANDI: This general order you are talking about from Gushu, was it part of that general order that members of Black Cats should be killed?

MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct. The instruction that came from Mr Gushu encompassed all that we were doing in order to bring peace, that fell under that umbrella.

ADV SANDI: I've got something in my notes where you say we used to talk about these people with Gushu. Did you talk about specific people who were members of the Black Cats or did you speak generally about Black Cat members?

MR LUKHELE: We just spoke widely, widely about Black Cat members.

ADV SANDI: The name of that Nhlabathi, did it feature in those discussions, did it ever come up?

MR LUKHELE: There is a mistake, Mr Gushu never uttered Obed Nhlabathi's name.

ADV SANDI: Did anyone of you whilst talking to Mr Gushu, ever mention the name of Obed Nhlabathi and how you perceived him?

MR LUKHELE: No, we did not mention names, but we just mentioned the group, the Black Cats who were problematic.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.

MR LUKHELE: Thank you.

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 29-07-1998

MATTER: BLACK CATS

DAY: 8

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MR PATEL: May it please you Mr Chairman, I beg leave to call Mr Shongwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shongwe, which language would you prefer to use?

MR SHONGWE: I will testify in Zulu.

PELELE L. SHONGWE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL: Mr Shongwe, where were you born?

MR SHONGWE: I was born in Ermelo.

MR PATEL: And have you lived for most of your live in the Ermelo area?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: At the time that you committed the acts for which you claim amnesty, what was your occupation?

MR SHONGWE: I was not employed.

MR PATEL: What is your occupation at present?

MR SHONGWE: I am under the South African Defence Force.

MR PATEL: At the time that you committed the acts for which you claim amnesty, did you belong to any political organisation?

MR SHONGWE: Could you repeat your question please?

MR PATEL: At the time that you committed the acts for which you are claiming amnesty, did you belong to any political organisation?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct. I was a member of the ANC.

MR PATEL: According to the schedule on page 21 of Volume 1, you are claiming amnesty for firstly the murder of Bongani Malinga.

MR SHONGWE: Could you please repeat the reference.

MR PATEL: Page 21 on the right top corner there is a number, paragraph 6.6 and your name is there.

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I can see that.

MR PATEL: You claim amnesty for firstly the murder of Bongani Malinga on 22 October 1993 and you also claim amnesty for the murder of Ernest Malele on 15 February 1993 and you claim amnesty for the attempted murder of an unknown black male on 15 February 1993. You claim amnesty for illegal possession of firearms and ammunition and finally for the theft of a firearm and ammunition. Do you confirm that?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct. With regard to the murder of Ernest Malele as well as the other unknown black male, there is a mistake - that happened during 1994 and not 1993 as recorded.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one is this?

MR PATEL: Numbers 2 and 3.

CHAIRPERSON: 2 and 3?

MR PATEL: That is correct. It ought to be 1994. We have had evidence from previous applicants who have identified you as a member of a Self Defence Unit, do you confirm that?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: Let's examine each offence individually. The first murder, that is of Bongani Malinga. Who was he? Did he belong to any political organisation?

MR SHONGWE: Bongani Malinga was a member of the Black Cats as well as a member of the IFP.

MR PATEL: Was there any specific order from a higher command that he should be killed?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, there was an instruction that we should form Self Defence Units and we should do everything in our power or in our discretion in order to arm ourselves and as the members of the Self Defence Unit, we knew the Black Cat members very well and Bongani was one of the people who played a very important role in killing SACP/COSATU and ANC members, as well as members of the community.

The instruction that we got was for us to try and quell the violence, so it was up to us to look and see as to who was causing problems. If he did not want to partake in the negotiations.

MR PATEL: Could you briefly describe how his murder took place?

MR SHONGWE: I was from my place, that is where the Black Cats are staying, in the same area, at Extension. As I was going out, I saw Bongani Malinga together with Bongi Mkhwanazi, they were from Bongi Mkhwanazi's place. I ran to him and I shot him.

I think it was about three houses that could be approximately ten metres away from me. I shot him in the leg and he fell onto the ground. I proceeded to him or towards him. I think I shot him about three times in the ribs and when I was closer to him, I shot him at close range. The firearm was loaded with 15 bullets and I ran off from the scene and I think I shot him about 11 times, because I was left with only four bullets.

MR PATEL: Yes. Were you alone on that day or were you accompanied by anybody?

MR SHONGWE: I was with Livingstone, but I left him in my yard or in the house when I went out, that is when I saw this person and I proceeded towards this person all by myself.

MR PATEL: Okay. The murder of Ernest Malele and this unknown male on 15 February 1994, where did that take place?

MR SHONGWE: That happened in White River, the main town is White River but the area is called Gogogeo.

MR PATEL: Do you know whether Ernest Malele and this unknown person belonged to any political organisation?

MR SHONGWE: I think I have to explain briefly as to how I got to know this, or how I got hold of this information. I don't know if I am permitted to do that.

MR PATEL: Yes, please do.

MR SHONGWE: When I realised that my life was in danger in Ermelo, I fled to Nelspruit and I hid at a safe house, that is an ANC safe house. As I was still there, Ernest Malele came, I was with a certain person named Pat but whose surname I do not remember.

He said he was looking for his briefcase which contained documents of the National Party or his National Party documents, and we said that we did not know anything about the briefcase, and he asked me as to my identity and where I was coming from.

Pat knew this guy very well and he said he was coming back and it was going to be very clear when he came back, as to where I was coming from. When he went out, I asked Pat as to who these guys are and he said I should be very careful of them, because they were National Party people.

At about seven or eight o'clock in the evening, I heard a knock at the door and when I opened the door, they showed themselves at the door. I thought that probably they had come to either kill me or attack me and when they left, I had taken my gun earlier on and when I opened the door, they made gestures as if they were taking their guns from their holsters or from their waists. That is when I started shooting.

Ernest died on the spot, but the other one did not die on the spot. When we searched them, we got some pangas from their bodies and I indicated that we should put them back into the car in which they arrived and we drove the car.

Because I did not know the area, and there was a river somewhere, somehow, I was not able to go through or go passed it, we took the documents which were inside the car and we burnt the car. I am the one who started burning the car.

That is when the rain started and it actually extinguished the flames in which the car was engulfed.

CHAIRPERSON: So, what is the reason you killed Ernest and attempted to kill the other person?

MR SHONGWE: It is because Pat had already told me that they were members of the National Party which I regarded as the enemy of the ANC and it was clear that they had come to kill me, so I killed them in self defence.

They had pointed out at an earlier stage that they were going to sort me out when they came back.

MR PATEL: The illegal possession of firearms and ammunition, and the theft of the firearm and the ammunition, could you just explain to the Committee how you came to be in possession of it?

MR SHONGWE: I would like to explain the reason why I wanted to own a gun. I was a member of the SDU and the instruction that had been issued was that we should arm ourselves in whichever way. One day I came across a drunk Policeman and I robbed him of his gun with the sole aim that I should protect the organisations that fell within the ANC and the community at large.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, are you presently serving a sentence?

MR SHONGWE: No.

MR PATEL: As a member of the ANC, how did you view members of the National Party, the IFP and the Black Cats?

MR SHONGWE: At the time members of the Black Cats, the IFP and the National Party were perceived as the enemies of the ANC.

MR PATEL: In committing any of these offences for which you claim amnesty, were you motivated by personal malice or gain?

MR SHONGWE: No, that is not correct.

MR PATEL: And in respect of these offences for which you claim amnesty, have you been prosecuted?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I was arrested for the same offences.

MR PATEL: Which offences were you arrested for?

MR SHONGWE: I was arrested for killing Bongani Malinga, Ernest Malele and the attempted murder of this other National Party member who was in the company of Ernest Malele and to be found in possession of unlicensed firearm and ammunition.

MR PATEL: What happened with regard to the charge of murder of Bongani Malinga?

MR SHONGWE: When I arrived in court, I was granted bail and thereafter I went for the trail in Bethal and the Judge said there wasn't enough evidence, I should go home. I also attended a trial for the Malele case, I was granted a bail and it was also indicated that there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute me and I came back for an inquest and I indicated that I knew nothing, and it was said that I should go home.

MR PATEL: The person you mentioned that was with you in White River, Pat whose surname is unknown, do you know where he is today?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, tell me why is this application then made? I don't follow why it is being made. He is not at risk for prosecution?

Indeed in one of the matters he has been at risk and acquitted?

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, as I understood the position to be and you must bear with me, I took over these matters at a late stage, these things had been done already but as I understood in so far as Bongani Malinga was concerned, there wasn't an acquittal.

It appeared to me to be more a withdrawal of a charge. In so far as Ernest Malele is concerned, also a discharge after an inquest, it still leaves you at risk as far as I can recall.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not too sure that you are correct, but I suppose we are three quarters through his evidence, you might as well continue with it. Carry on.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL.

CHAIRPERSON: What has happened to the fifth count of theft of a firearm and ammunition?

MR SHONGWE: As I have explained, I came across a drunk Police person and I robbed him of his firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR SHONGWE: It is because I wanted to defend the ANC members as well as the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp, have you got any questions?

MR KEMP: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KEMP.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT:

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh? You are earning your keep?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Mr Shongwe, with regard to Bongani Malinga, this incident occurred on the 22nd of October 1993, is that correct?

MR SHONGWE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: We have already heard evidence from one of the previous applicants that by 1993 things had calmed down to a fair extent, that there was no more fighting in Ermelo?

MR SHONGWE: I would say the situation had not changed here. I am one of the people who reside at Extension where the Black Cats were located. I was not in the position to stay at home because the situation was still the same.

Whoever says the situation was better, I want to say before this Commission, that is a mistake.

MR HATTINGH: I am not going to take it any further, apart from saying it is one of your co-applicants who said so.

However, on that day when you killed Bongani, you said that he was together with another person, could you just repeat the name of the other person?

MR SHONGWE: Would you please repeat the question.

MR HATTINGH: On the day that you killed Bongani Malinga, he was with another person. What is the name of the other person?

MR SHONGWE: He was with Bongi Mkhwanazi, a member of the Black Cats.

MR HATTINGH: All that happened in that incident was that you left your home, you ran towards Bongani Malinga and you shot him?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR SHONGWE: He was a danger to members of the ANC Youth League as well as the community, such that in the instructions that we received, the instruction was such that we should identify dangerous people. I saw him as a dangerous person because we could not communicate with him, instead he was harming members of the ANC as well as the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR HATTINGH: You considered him a dangerous person because of what he did to other members of the community? Was that the only reason?

MR SHONGWE: Apart from that, he did not want peace and we could not talk to him, he didn't want organisations to operate freely.

For example, he didn't want ANC members to go and canvass for support at the Extension. It was difficult to communicate with, he didn't have peace.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Shongwe, I would like to give you a further opportunity. Were there any other reasons why you ran out of your house, ran towards Bongani and killed him, apart from the ones that you have now mentioned?

MR SHONGWE: Would you please repeat, I do not understand you?

MR HATTINGH: I say I would like to give you a further opportunity of telling this Committee your reasons why you killed Bongani Malinga, apart from what you have already mentioned.

MR SHONGWE: I would like to expand on this one. I don't know whether that is permissible.

MR HATTINGH: Please.

MR SHONGWE: I reside at Extension, we grew up together with the same Black Cat members.

If a person wanted to continue residing at the area, a person had to join the Black Cats - I refused. And I decided to leave the area, I went away to stay wherever.

I was trying all my level best to communicate and talk to these people. Many members who went to join the ANC, did that as a result of my effort trying to talk to them. Instead he refused, he threatened to kill me and destroy the ANC, saying that Inkatha would be the final stamp here.

I realised and took him to be a dangerous person in the township. Our aim was to make sure that there was stability.

These are some of the reasons that led me to killing him, he was stubborn and full of violence such that these other Black Cat members would after I have recruited them, I would actually ask them how they were doing things and tried to retrieve information about certain individuals within the Black Cats and they indicated to me how dangerous he was.

I realised that he was going to harm the community even further, that is why I decided that such a person should die.

MR HATTINGH: Now your application form which we find on page 144 up to page 149 or 150, if you could just turn to those pages.

MR SHONGWE: Which page, which area should I look for?

MR HATTINGH: Who completed this application form?

MR SHONGWE: On page 134, this has to do with the murder of Obed and this doesn't involve me.

MR HATTINGH: Turn to page 144. Is this your application form?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is my application.

MR HATTINGH: Who completed this form?

MR SHONGWE: I did this myself, but I was being assisted by the people who were in my company because I do not know English quite well, that is why they were assisting me.

MR HATTINGH: Who were those people in your company?

MR SHONGWE: These are some of the people who are here, applying for amnesty.

MR HATTINGH: In your supplementary statement which we find from page 151 and further, in particular on page 152.

MR SHONGWE: On which page?

MR HATTINGH: In your supplementary statement which we find on page 151 and further and in particular on page 152, under paragraph (c)(4), it is stated that the background statement submitted with my application, and expanded upon in the document headed Brief Historical Background, do those other two documents in fact form part of your application?

MR SHONGWE: Would you please refer me to something really tangible on this page, I do not understand what you are talking about.

MR HATTINGH: Do you understand or are you able to read English?

MR SHONGWE: As I have indicated, I don't know English quite well, yes, I do try.

CHAIRPERSON: Listen, it seems your Attorneys in their wisdom drafted two documents relating to the history of these applications and the incidents for which these applications are made. Do you understand?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: In your form of application, one or both of these documents have been referred to.

Do you understand that?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I do understand now.

CHAIRPERSON: All that the Advocate is asking or let me ask you this before that, do you know what the contents of these two documents are?

MR SHONGWE: No. Perhaps if you could give me a chance so that I could peruse through this. I wouldn't say I know it, maybe I do, but then I would be in a position to say once given a chance to peruse through this document.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, does anything much turn on this issue or do we need him to read it?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, not so much on the background statement as the two statements from pages 5 to I believe approximately page 20, the two statements. Not much turn on that, but I think we should get some clarity as to what comprises his application for amnesty.

At this stage it would appear that we have ...

CHAIRPERSON: If he is given an opportunity to read it now and he comes to tell us, then we know. I see it is quarter past four now and I am trying to finish this witness, hence I ask if anything, a big issue turns on this.

If you tell me yes, then I would have to give him a chance to read it. If it is just a mundane question, not relating to anything major, then maybe you can tell me.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, no, I believe we can carry on without having him necessarily have to read those other two documents.

I think my next question would then perhaps show whether we need to allow him the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Let's see then.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Shongwe, the document that we find on page 151, 152, 153 and 154, have you seen this document before?

MR SHONGWE: As I have explained, I would like to be granted an opportunity to look through this document, after which I will be in the position to say whether I know it or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he sign this Mr Patel?

MR PATEL: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How long ago did he sign it?

MR PATEL: I am under correction, it might have been Tuesday or Wednesday last week.

CHAIRPERSON: Last week. Mr Shongwe, you signed a document because your Attorney came to show you this document maybe Tuesday or Wednesday last week, do you remember?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I do remember.

CHAIRPERSON: It was a supplementary statement to your application? Do you recall?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I do remember Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you signed it?

MR SHONGWE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the document the Advocate is talking about.

MR SHONGWE: As I have explained, the manner in which we signed it was in a haste, and therefore I didn't have a chance to read through it. My lawyer made me sign this, he didn't give me a chance to look through the document, because we were in a hurry.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I would prefer that we finish with this witness today, but perhaps it would be necessary for him just to confirm at least the supplementary statement, that he understands the contents thereof.

I did not foresee that we would run into a problem of this kind at this late stage.

CHAIRPERSON: In the statement that you signed, you say that the offences, acts and omissions in respect of which I claim amnesty, are detailed in the document headed Schedule Detailing Offences for which Amnesty is Claimed.

You have already confirmed that, I can't see that being a problem.

MR SHONGWE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then it goes on to the circumstances and events giving rise to such offences are detailed in the background statement submitted with my application and expanded upon in the document headed Brief Historical Background. Those are the two documents you find on page 5 to page 20. Do you understand that?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what concerns you Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: That is correct Mr Chairman. I think all that I would like to know is if in his own mind, he wants to make pages 5 to 20 part of his application or not. At this stage it would appear he doesn't know about the other documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, I am going to make it as easy as possible for him. It depends on what questions flow out of it, then maybe you must give him an opportunity to read it then.

Mr Shongwe, these two documents have been drafted by the Attorney with the help of this broad Committee that we have been speaking about all the time. In so far as these two documents relate to you, is it your intention to have it part of your application, because that is what your supplementary application says?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: There you have the answer Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, if that is the position, then I suppose we should allow him the opportunity of having a look at those papers, those documents which he would like to make part of his application?

I am not going to be very much longer with this witness, this applicant, so if we leave it until tomorrow, we can within ...

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on, that is why I asked you what is the point that you are leading up to, I am not too sure what it is. Is it going to make a big impact or don't you know yet?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, perhaps I should just carry on and see where we are going to.

Mr Shongwe, you completed the original application form yourself, correct?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: In your own handwriting?

MR SHONGWE: No, that is not correct. I didn't use my own handwriting. I was talking and my lawyer was doing the writing.

MR HATTINGH: Were you given the opportunity of reading the application form and making sure that everything was correct before signing it?

MR SHONGWE: As I have explained that I signed this document here in a haste. I don't know whether you are talking about a different statement, apart from this one. I do not follow you now.

MR HATTINGH: I am referring to page 149 - on page 6 of the application form, where we find a signature. Perhaps you can just tell us whether it is your signature.

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is my signature.

MR HATTINGH: Now if you have a look at page 150, that is page 7 of your application form, it would appear that this document was signed and confirmed on - sometime in May 1997 before a Commissioner of Oaths, a certain Radebe, in Rooihuiskraal?

MR SHONGWE: As far as I see, when we finished discussing this with our lawyers at our offices, it became necessary that we have somebody to conduct the oath.

We couldn't find him. I don't know this Radebe. My lawyer therefore then went looking for this Radebe for the signature.

MR HATTINGH: So you were not present, you never saw Mr Radebe and you did not sign this application form before a Commissioner of Oaths?

MR SHONGWE: I don't know Mr Radebe. I think that maybe my lawyers were trying to facilitate my application, because I am not here most of the time, I am at the Army.

MR HATTINGH: Be that as it may, when you signed the document on page 6 thereof, were you given the opportunity of reading through the document making sure that the contents thereof was correct before you signed it?

MR SHONGWE: Would you please repeat the page?

MR HATTINGH: It is in bold black numbering, it is on page 149. You find your signature at the bottom of the page. All I am asking you is, at the time when you put your signature there, when you signed the document, were you given the opportunity of reading your application form to make sure that everything that was noted on the application form, was in fact correct?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And have you once again, when this hearing started and before giving evidence, once again gone through your application form to familiarise and refresh your memory?

MR SHONGWE: No.

MR HATTINGH: I have asked you to give the reasons why you killed Bongani Malinga and despite giving you full opportunity to do so, you never mentioned anything about Bongani attacking you personally, you or your house. Is that correct?

MR SHONGWE: No, that is not correct. I think I have already given you the explanation.

As I have earlier on indicated that Bongani Malinga was a problem to my organisation and the community, having played a very prominent role in the Black Cats.

I went as far as explaining that these other members of the Black Cats that I recruited into my organisation, explained to me how dangerous some of the people within the Black Cats were. Therefore they indicated to me what training Bongani had undergone at Mkuzi. He is stubborn and they indicated how dangerous he can be to the community. I think I did explain that, not knowing whether you still remember it or not.

MR HATTINGH: No, I agree with you, you did explain that. But still you never mentioned that Bongani at any stage attacked you or your house.

CHAIRPERSON: As a reason why he assassinated him?

MR HATTINGH: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he assassinate him because he was personally attacked?

MR HATTINGH: Sorry Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Did he do so because he was attacked or what?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, at this stage I would like to find out what his reasons were because the reasons that he ...

CHAIRPERSON: But you have asked him what his reasons were and he gave you the reasons, whether we believe it or not, that is another matter. But you put to him that he didn't mention the fact that he was attacked of a number of occasions by a group which included the deceased, as a reason why he eventually assassinated him.

I don't know if that is quite correct.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I would then just put to this witness and ask him to explain why on page 147 in his application form, he wrote whatever he wrote there, or was noted there on his behalf.

If you turn to page 147, paragraph (b) in this application form you were asked for your justification regarding the acts that you committed.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you describe how on a few occasions you were attacked by members of the IFP which included the deceased Malinga, and you go and you describe how you were stabbed in four places on your body and in your hand and in your lip. On the fourth occasion when he and his group attacked you, you shot him.

MR SHONGWE: That is one of the things that I said, but I think there might be something that my Attorney also added, but what I remember is that I was not under attack on the day that I shot Bongani.

MR HATTINGH: And on page 148, middle of the page, paragraph 11(a) you said I acted to protect myself. It would appear that that is also not correct because you did not act to protect yourself, you in fact attacked Bongani?

MR SHONGWE: If you look carefully here, there is an instance where I did indicate that I was protecting and defending myself as well as the ANC structures.

MR HATTINGH: Show that to us then.

MR PATEL: If Mr Hattingh would just read paragraph 11(a) in its entirety, he will see it.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I do not quite understand the reason for Mr Patel answering the question. The applicant answered and I asked him to show me where. I do not find that strange for me to ask him to show me where and what he would like to point out to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you point it out?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, there is an instance here where I have indicated that I was protecting myself. I would like to clarify something here before this Commission, I am not well conversant in English.

I think I have said everything that I wanted to say at the time when this form was being filled. Maybe my lawyer may have added something up so that this could be better understood. I also indicated how I killed Bongani.

He didn't attack me. I am the one who went charging on him. I don't know why Mr Hattingh should concentrate on this.

CHAIRPERSON: It is according to your application, one of the possibilities exist that you killed him because he attacked you and when he was attacking you for the fourth time. Now that is not what you have told us in your evidence, that you left your home, you ran after him and you shot him 11 times. Do you understand the problem?

MR SHONGWE: I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what Mr Hattingh is dealing with.

MR SHONGWE: I think there is some area here where I indicated that I was still going to explain. Some of the people who were attacking me, are still alive.

If I was paying a revenge, really I would have done so to all these other people who were attacking me. These other people who are still alive today, were communicable and I could talk to them. Not Bongani, he was dangerous to the community, that is why I decided to kill him.

I didn't attack him because he was always among the people who were attacking me, no.

MR HATTINGH: Is it possible for you to point out which parts or which sentences in your application form is incorrect and which was added by your Attorney without your knowledge?

CHAIRPERSON: That will involve the assistance of an Interpreter. If you assist, then we have to adjourn and let him do that.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I have no intention of delaying proceedings, but really I think it is important that we need to know what his application consists of.

I think, it is already half past four and we are going to finish with him within minutes tomorrow morning, just to clarify this last issue.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we will finish with him tonight.

MR HATTINGH: Okay, I appreciate that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shongwe, you are going to have to ask an Interpreter to assist you in answering that question.

I am going to adjourn for ten minutes and hopefully by then you would be able to give the answer.

ON RESUMPTION:

PELELE L. SHONGWE: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: (continued) ... tell us what part of the contents of this application is not correct and which was added by your Attorney without your knowledge?

MR SHONGWE: That is where reference is made to an 3.8 mm Plattes and the area where I was attacked on the day when I shot Bongani. I do not concur with this.

MR HATTINGH: Sorry, if we can start with page 144, just 144 - the first page of your application, is there anything that was not correct on that page?

MR SHONGWE: Everything is correct on this page.

MR HATTINGH: If you turn to page 145, would you please indicate what part of that page is perhaps not correct?

MR SHONGWE: That is where reference is made to the 3.8 mm as well as the name Plattes.

MR HATTINGH: Sorry, if you could just indicate what paragraph is that, I can't find it.

MR SHONGWE: That is at the bottom of page 145, (iv).

MR HATTINGH: So it is only reference to the 3.8 that was incorrect?

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Well, on this page, if you could just read under (iv) where the heading is Nature and Particulars, the second line thereof is with 9 mm and then what follows there, I can't read that?

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman. Then on page 146, anything that was incorrect there?

MR SHONGWE: I concur with the contents here of.

MR HATTINGH: Page 147, if you can start from the top and indicate exactly which sentences are incorrect.

MR SHONGWE: I concur with this page, should I say except where it is said he and his colleague. Let me perhaps start here where it is said on the fourth occasion, he and his group attacked me and I shot him.

I do not concur with this.

MR HATTINGH: Only that one sentence?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And on page 148?

MR SHONGWE: I concur with that page as well?

MR HATTINGH: Page 149?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I concur with this page as well.

MR HATTINGH: The signature that we see at the bottom of page 150, the name P.L.J. Shongwe, that is not your signature?

MR SHONGWE: I am the one who signed here.

MR HATTINGH: When?

MR SHONGWE: I do not remember the date, but I remember that I was with my Attorney Julie Mohammed and another black person whom I do not know.

MR HATTINGH: But that was not in the presence of Mr Radebe?

MR SHONGWE: As I have stated, I was with my Attorney and another black person whom I do not know. I won't know whether the person was Radebe or not. I didn't know him.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Hattingh, this black person you say you did not know, did you see him touching the forms and maybe writing anything on the forms?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, because he was in the company of Julie Mohammed.

ADV SANDI: What was he doing, what did he do with the forms or on the forms?

MR SHONGWE: He had ball pens and he took the form as we were sitting down. I think he must be the one who signed here under the Commissioner of Oath column, but yes, he did take the form.

MS VAN DER WALT: Maybe I can help you here, were you at Rooihuiskraal on that day in the presence of your Attorney and the other black gentleman?

Do you know where Rooihuiskraal in Pretoria is?

MR SHONGWE: Is it Hammanskraal?

ADV BOSMAN: No, Rooihuiskraal. Were you in Pretoria the day when you were with your Attorney and the other black gentleman?

MR SHONGWE: We went to Pretoria after having signed or after having concluded the filling of this form.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, why is this such a big issue? If it was wrongly attested, so what?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, that I will leave with you.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Shongwe, if we turn back to page 147, I repeatedly asked you what the problems were that you were experiencing with Bongani Malinga ...

CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on, Mr Shongwe, that signature on page 149, is that yours above the word deponent?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you confirm that before us now that that is your signature and that you signed it?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR HATTINGH: I repeatedly asked you to tell this Committee what the problems were that you were having with Bongani Malinga, which led to your killing him.

At no stage did you mention anything about four separate attacks by Black Cat groups of which he formed part of, on either you or your home. Why, why did you elect not to mention anything of that kind?

MR SHONGWE: Here I was explaining how I killed him. I was not explaining about my attack or my being attacked and the attack on my family. Given a chance, I would explain that, but now I was still explaining how I killed him.

MR HATTINGH: The fact that Bongani or that you were stabbed on four places during these attacks, that Bongani himself stabbed you in the hand, and on your lip on the fourth occasion, or just on your lip, not on the fourth occasion? Was that also something which did not come into play in your reasons for killing Bongani?

MR SHONGWE: I did explain earlier on that at the time when I was being attacked, there were others who were still alive and who are still alive. If I had killed him for attacking me, I would have killed the others who are still alive today.

I went as far as explaining that these others were present when I was being attacked, are people which animosity existed between me and them, is over.

MR HATTINGH: I put it to you in terms of my instructions received from the family, the mother of the deceased, that Bongani Malinga during 1993 at least, did not pose any threat to either the community or yourself or the political stability of the area.

MR SHONGWE: I disagree with that.

MR HATTINGH: And on the day that he was killed by you, he was on his way to the shops and there was absolutely no reason for you to kill him.

MR SHONGWE: I also disagree with that, because I killed him at our street, there is no shop on that street.

MR HATTINGH: On page 148 at the bottom, it is stated that you were prosecuted with Bongani Khaba. To which incident does that refer?

MR SHONGWE: What page?

MR HATTINGH: Page 148.

CHAIRPERSON: For which case did you go to court and you were acquitted? Mr Shongwe, carry on.

MR SHONGWE: On the very same offence, Bongani Khaba and myself took the witness stand, and it was indicated that we were not guilty, we should step down.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, was that the Malinga matter, when Malinga was the deceased?

MR SHONGWE: Are you referring to Bongani, I do not quite understand, will you please repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the case in which you took the stand and you were finally acquitted, was that in respect of Bongani Malinga's death?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Were you prosecuted with Bongani Khaba for that case?

MR SHONGWE: As I have explained before, we took the witness stand and it was indicated that this case did not have sufficient evidence and therefore we should go home. Nobody asked me any question, be it the Magistrate or the Prosecutor, no question was directed to me.

MR HATTINGH: At that criminal trial, on the charge of murder of one Bongani Malinga, did you take the oath to testify?

MR SHONGWE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe, I think it is Section 176 of the Criminal Procedure Act, isn't it, 174 the acquittal after the State's case.

I don't know where that is getting us to, whether he testified in the matter or not?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Shongwe, I just further wish to put it to you that the person Bongi Mkhwanazi who was with Bongani Malinga on the day that you killed Bongani Malinga, was to testify at the criminal trial, but he too was murdered on the day before the commencement of the criminal trial. Do you know anything about that?

MR SHONGWE: Is that a comment or a question?

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, I ...

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, wait, I am going to have to warn him. Mr Shongwe, that is a matter that may, the answer which may incriminate you. You are not compelled to answer that question - if you don't feel like answering that question, you don't have to. Do you understand?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Because that witness that is referred to as having been killed, it is not a matter that is being discussed in this hearing. Understand?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I do understand Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your choice?

MR SHONGWE: I would prefer that Mr Hattingh ask me about the death of Bongani Malinga. I don't know anything about the death of the other one.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir. Mr Shongwe, why did you kill Ernest Malele?

MR SHONGWE: The manner in which he spoke to me when he left during the day, seemed dangerous to me. When they came back later on, at the time when they knocked at the door, they seemed as if they had guns at their hands. Guns, which were put through the half open door, or slightly open door. I shot first because I thought I was defending myself.

MR MAPOMA: Now that self defence of yours, did it further the aims and objective of your organisation in a way?

MR SHONGWE: Would you please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: When you defended yourself in shooting these people, were you acting with any political motive or were you just defending yourself?

MR SHONGWE: I think political motives are also part of it, because at the time the National Party was the enemy of the ANC, such that the very same person at the time when he left that day, he said we ANC members will shit. We will see what is going to happen when we get back.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he not come to that house where you were, he would not have died, is that not so?

MR SHONGWE: I think so yes because he too must have come to me with the intention of fighting me. First of all the house that I was using, was regarded as a safe house of the ANC, so that any National Party member who crossed the grounds or the premises, may not have come there with a good intention.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Thank you sir, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, have you got any questions?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, there is no questions. I just want for the sake of clarity on page 148 where it is referred that Mr Bongani Khaba was prosecuted. My instructions are that he was never a co-accused with this particular applicant, that he wasn't prosecuted in respect of any of these counts.

What happened in fact was that Mr Khaba did appear in court on that day, but it was for the purposes of sentence in respect of the other matter, but it wasn't as if he was being charged, prosecuted, no. That is all.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, have you got any re-examination?

MR PATEL: None, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL.

CHAIRPERSON: Francis?

ADV SANDI: Mr Shongwe, just one or two questions from me. Before this Mr Ernest Malele came to this house where you were hiding, did Pat or Patrick whoever the name of the gentleman may be, did he have any conversation with you about the political situation in this town which you referred to as White River?

MR SHONGWE: We used to discuss politics, myself and Pat, such that when these people left, I asked him who these people were and he indicated to me that these are National Party members, and this person can be very dangerous, I know him.

I am living around here with him, he doesn't like ANC people.

ADV SANDI: Did he say there were any incidents between members of the National Party and the ANC, that is before these two gentlemen came?

MR SHONGWE: Would you please repeat the question.

ADV SANDI: Did he say there were any incidents between the National Party and the ANC before Mr Ernest Malele came to this house, what did he say was happening, if he said anything?

MR SHONGWE: I think I do remember slightly that he indicated that there is one ANC organiser who was in conflict with the National Party people, who was not allowed to canvass freely, but then he didn't indicate to me who that National Party person was. He just indicated that one ANC organiser had a problem with the National Party members in one of the areas.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shongwe, you said that you have made friends with the victims or the next of kin of the victims, you get on well with them now?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I can say that. Such that I also asked one of them to take me to Bongani Malinga's mother so that I could talk to her.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you done so?

MR SHONGWE: I tried that, but Mangete refused, he said I should not talk to these people because they are under his control.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still wanting to do so?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I will be very pleased if such a thing can happen.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you try some other method of going to talk to them? Some other broker if you want?

MR SHONGWE: I have already identified a person who could broker on this issue, Mtuzi from the IFP. I spoke to him and he willingly indicated that he can do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all you have done in four years now?

MR SHONGWE: May the Chairperson please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all you have done to make friends in this last four years?

MR SHONGWE: I am not here most of the time, I reside in Johannesburg, that is where I work. I only come back here on Saturdays and go back on Sundays, therefore I don't have enough time to meet these people.

I was also afraid to go to Bongani's place all by myself, because they might say something different the following day. I only had an opportunity now that I have come here for the TRC, that is when I spoke to Mtuzi from the IFP and he willingly indicated that he can broker on the issue.

Now I haven't had a chance to talk to these people. Yesterday I went to talk to my lawyer and never had a chance, I think that seeing that I might be finishing today, I will have an opportunity tomorrow to see Bongani's parents, maybe shortly after this gathering here today.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are excused. We will adjourn till quarter to ...

MR SHONGWE: I would like to say something. I would request that our parents here in the community and we people who took part in the violence in the community, must assist one another so that we could talk together. We should continue and avoid the conflict because that conflict led to many of us not having any chance, not getting a chance to go to school.

If this persists, our children will not have the opportunity to go to school. I would like to apologise to everybody who was wronged by my deeds, and I am inviting others who come before this Commission, to do the same. Right now, I am working for the South African National Defence Force. I am looking and dealing with all nationalities, IFP, ANC and everybody else to ensure that everybody is safe.

A special reference to the families of the deceased, it was not our intention really, it was the political circumstances, the atmosphere that prevailed. Forgiveness would be appropriate. I would like to apologise, may they please forgive me and accept my apology. I would like for us to communicate as we used to.

We grew up together with these Black Cat boys, they were unfortunately misled by people such as Jwi and Chris, people who were older than them, but after having realised the mistake, we note that this should not happen again. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn till quarter to nine tomorrow.