VINCENT KHANYILE: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: (cont)

Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Khanyile, can you tell the Committee what was the event which promoted the attack? What was the event which occurred, which sparked the residents of kwaMadala to launch the attack on Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: What I can say is that lots of IFP members were killed in Boipatong. And also houses were demolished or burnt down, school children who were members of the IFP, have to stop schooling.

MR BERGER: My question to you is and perhaps there was no specific event, and if so, then you must say so. Was there a specific event which sparked the attack on Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: As I have explained, Mr Berger, the reason why the residents of Boipatong were attacked, it was because of their acts of killing us and also burning us.

Those are the reasons why we attacked them.

MR BERGER: Do I understand you correctly then, that there was no one specific event which sparked the attack, that it was a build up over time, would that be correct?

MR KHANYILE: Maybe I can try to explain it in this way. During those days of the attack at Boipatong, there were a lot of IFP members who were killed during those days.

Therefore I would say the killings of the IFP members at Boipatong, was over and above.

MR BERGER: Which people are you referring to specifically?

MR KHANYILE: Even if I can't remember all of them, one that I still remember Bongani Mbatha, the other one is Mbele, Mr Khumalo and also two young girls who were burnt. If I remember well their names were Nomvula and Martha.

Those are the people whom I can still remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, are you able to tell us how long before the attack on Boipatong, were these people killed?

MR KHANYILE: Even if I can't give a specific number, I will say it took about a week or two weeks.

MR BERGER: Now the person that you say Mr Mbatha that was killed, he was killed in January of 1992, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: I have already explained that I don't know the exact dates on which they were killed, but it was during those times.

Therefore I won't deny if you say that is the case.

MR BERGER: You gave evidence yesterday that you were present when Mr Mbatha was killed, but you also gave evidence to say that you never went into Boipatong, you never left the hostel.

How is it possible if you never left, if you never went into Boipatong that you could have witnessed the killing of Mr Mbatha?

MR KHANYILE: What I can say Mr Berger, as I said I might have a problem with the Interpreter, because we might not be having the same interpretation with some other words. When you say I left kwaMadala and went to the other place to me, it means leaving kwaMadala to go and stay somewhere, that is how I understood your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that Mr Khanyile never left the hostel at all, to go outside of the hostel, is that what you are putting to him?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, when he was giving his evidence in chief and I wasn't asking the questions, my learned friend asked him - Chairperson, can I answer the question that you put to me, first?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead.

MR BERGER: The witness said in his evidence in chief in response to the question whether he had any personal knowledge or personal experiences of attacks by comrades, his answer was no, I never left kwaMadala hostel for Boipatong.

That is what I am putting to the witness. If he never left kwaMadala hostel for Boipatong, then in my submission he couldn't have witnessed any attack on Mr Mbatha in Boipatong. That is what I am trying to put to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KHANYILE: What I tried to clarify is that I never said I never left, what I said is I never moved out of kwaMadala to stay at Boipatong. There is a difference there.

The question came to me, suggesting that I have moved out of kwaMadala hostel to stay at Boipatong. No question came to ask as to whether I left at one particular day from kwaMadala hostel to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, I am not going to argue with you, but that was not the question. In fact the question was asked by your counsel who asked you whether you, Mr Khanyile, had any personal experiences of attacks by people from Boipatong on you and your answer was no, I never left kwaMadala for Boipatong.

MR KHANYILE: It will mean that you didn't understand me.

MR BERGER: And your problems with the Interpreter only began under cross-examination, you never had any problems when you gave evidence in chief.

MR KHANYILE: I don't know whether you expect me to answer.

MR BERGER: What I am suggesting to you Mr Khanyile is whenever you have difficulty with an answer, you seem to be blaming the interpretation.

MR KHANYILE: To explain, I never had a problem with answering your questions. All I can say about the Interpreter is that I had a problem since from the morning, but it continued up to a stage where I have to say it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, would we please proceed?

MR BERGER: Yes, I am proceeding. The woman Nomvula, do you know that she was suspected of taking information from Boipatong to kwaMadala?

MR KHANYILE: No, I only know her as someone who has a friend at kwaMadala.

MR BERGER: David Mbele, do you know that he was an IFP member?

MR KHANYILE: Even if it wasn't said unto me, but I heard that he was.

MR BERGER: So you will agree with me that the statement that David Mbele had tenuous if any structural connection with Inkatha, is wrong?

INTERPRETER: Would you please repeat your question Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Will you agree with me that the statement that David mbele had tenuous if any structural connection with Inkatha, that that statement is wrong?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, do you know David Mbele?

MR KHANYILE: I used to know him as a teacher at Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he was a member of the IFP?

MR KHANYILE: From what I heard, I was told that he was a member of the IFP.

MR BERGER: Did you know that David Mbele, the David Mbele who died, worked for Nampak and that he held IFP meetings at his house in Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR BERGER: Did you know that B.L. Khumalo was an IFP member and in fact a very vocal IFP member?

MR KHANYILE: I knew Khumalo as an IFP member, not a vocative member.

MR BERGER: Are you talking about B.L. Khumalo or are you talking about George Khumalo?

MR KHANYILE: I am referring to Bhendileni Khumalo who was burnt to death at Boipatong. There is another Khumalo of whom I had heard who was staying at Boipatong, that he was an IFP member, but I don't know anything about this Khumalo which I can explain before the Committee.

MR BERGER: In your affidavit on page 104, you refer to Khumalo's family.

INTERPRETER: Khumalo who?

MR BERGER: Khumalo's family. Which Khumalo are you referring to?

MR KHANYILE: I am referring to the Khumalo who was a resident at Boipatong. The Khumalo whom I didn't know much about. I was not referring to the one who was killed.

MR BERGER: You were referring to the Khumalo whose house was burnt in Bopelong Street, Boipatong, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Now, that is George Khumalo. He was a member of the military wing of the IFP, was he not?

MR KHANYILE: As I have explained before, I didn't know much about him. I only knew him as an IFP member and also a resident of that place.

MR BERGER: He was an associate and he kept company with Victor Geswa and Damara Qonqo?

MR KHANYILE: I never noticed them together.

MR BERGER: In 1990 George Khumalo killed Amos Miga and ran away from Boipatong to stay in kwaMadala?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, are we going to have evidence to that effect?

MR BERGER: Indeed, we are. Yes, Mr Chairperson.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: I am saying are you putting this as a fact to this witness?

MR BERGER: In fact Chairperson, George Khumalo was arrested for the murder of Amos Miga and was subsequently released. My understanding is that he was given a suspended sentence.

After his release, he joined forces with Mplupeki Nana Tshabangu and together they terrorised the area of Boipatong. Do you know anything about that Mr Khanyile?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR BERGER: Is it not correct that gangs from kwaMadala such as Victor Geswa, Nana Tshabangu, George Khumalo were responsible for terrorising the residents of Boipatong, isn't that what was happening?

MR KHANYILE: It never came to our attention in kwaMadala.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that the people, the IFP members and I must correct you Mr Khanyile, it wasn't Zulu speaking people, it was specific IFP members who were targeted because they were terrorising the residents of Boipatong. Isn't that what was happening at that time?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, as I have explained yesterday, at the beginning of this issue, it was directed against the Zulu speaking. If you were born a Zulu speaking person, you were on the way to be killed, but after some time, this problem was rectified and people were told that it is, there is no instruction that Zulu's should be killed, because not all the Zulu's are IFP members.

Therefore the talk have changed, that IFP people were to be killed.

MR BERGER: How is it possible then that at the time of the attack on Boipatong, there was still so many Zulu speaking people resident in Boipatong? Not only that there were so many Zulu speaking residents still in Boipatong, but that people that were related to key IFP figures, such as for example the parents-in-law of Mr Mfana Zulu, they were living in Boipatong without any threats being directed at them. How do you explain that Mr Khanyile?

MR KHANYILE: First I would like to explain to Mr Berger that people who were being killed, they were Zulu's who were coming from KwaZulu Natal. Those who were Zulu's by birth in this place, were not involved in this killing.

With regard to the fathers-in-law of Mr Mtwana Zulu, I don't know what arrangement they have made with the comrades that they shouldn't be killed.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, what do you know about the hitsquads from Msinga?

MR KHANYILE: That never existed.

MR BERGER: What do you know about the 40 or 50 men who came from Msinga, who were supported by the residents of kwaMadala hostel?

MR KHANYILE: To explain I would say people were from Msinga, maybe they were not even over 10. That there was a hitsquad from Msinga, that never occurred.

MR BERGER: What do you say of the 40 to 50 people that Mr Victor Mthembu spoke about who were under the command of Mr Damara Qonqo, who were present and remained at the hostel from 1990 all the way through 1992 and who held sway over the residents of kwaMadala?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat your last sentence?

MR BERGER: And according to Mr Victor Mthembu, these men from Msinga held sway, held a command over the people of kwaMadala?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, yesterday I have explained to you about the leadership in kwaMadala hostel. If there were people coming from Msinga who were part of the leadership, I would have explained that to you.

What I am trying to say to you is, whatever you are asking me about, never happened.

MR BERGER: So, do you dispute the evidence of the Vice-Chairperson of the Youth Committee, Mr Victor Mthembu on that point?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, without doubt, I deny that.

MR BERGER: What do you know about the Amabutu at kwaMadala?

MR KHANYILE: What I can explain is that I shall start to explain to you what kind of people are referred to as Amabutu.

No residents of kwaMadala were called Amabutu, however, when we go out whether to a rally or somewhere else, armed with out traditional weapons, that is where we are referred to as Amabutu.

MR BERGER: When you left kwaMadala on the night of the 17th, to attack Boipatong, were you the Amabutu?

MR KHANYILE: Yes. Yes, we were like Amabutu.

MR BERGER: You were the warriors, is that correct? That is what Amabutu means?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is it also correct that when the call was made for the Amabutu to go to the stadium on that Wednesday night, that the Amabutu knew to take their weapons to the stadium?

MR KHANYILE: That is what I heard, I heard that from the stadium.

MR BERGER: What I am putting to you is that, when the call came to go to the stadium, you knew that this was the call for the attack and that is when you took your weapons?

MR KHANYILE: No, that is not true.

MR BERGER: When you got to the stadium on Wednesday night, were you given any instructions on how the attack on Boipatong was going to be carried out?

MR KHANYILE: We were only told that we should arm ourselves to go and attack Boipatong. However people who were mostly required, were the people who were guarding inside the place, who were called as the comrades. Therefore I understood it to mean that the people whom we were supposed to attack first, were the comrades.

We were not going to start attacking the community, we first have to meet the comrades and attack them.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, please listen carefully to this question.

Were you specifically instructed to attack the comrades or the Self Defence Units or were you instructed to attack the residents of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: We were instructed to go and attack Boipatong. How we were going to enter it and how we were going to attack, was not discussed.

MR BERGER: Who gave the instruction?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Qonqo, together with Mr Mkhize.

MR BERGER: Well, I am sure they didn't speak in unison, so I want to ask you who actually gave the instruction that you should attack Boipatong, the residents of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: If I remember well, those words were said by Mr Qonqo.

MR BERGER: Can you remember his words, what he said?

MR KHANYILE: If I remember well, he said today is the day to avenge against our enemies.

MR BERGER: What else did he say?

MR KHANYILE: He didn't continue further, he said each and everyone must go and fetch or her arms. Those who wished to use firearms or guns, must contact him.

MR BERGER: What did Mr Mkhize said?

MR KHANYILE: I can't remember what he exactly said on that day because he didn't say much.

MR BERGER: Besides what you have just told the Committee, there was no other discussion about plans or who to target, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: We were told to go and attack Boipatong.

MR BERGER: You knew at the time that the Army patrolled in that area around kwaMadala, am I right?

MR KHANYILE: They used to patrol, but not every day.

MR BERGER: You also knew that Iscor Security personnel patrolled in that area around the hostel, didn't you?

MR KHANYILE: I don't understand when you refer to Iscor workers or the guards who were patrolling the area. Can you repeat the area?

MR BERGER: I said Iscor Security personnel.

MR KHANYILE: They were there patrolling, but not every day. I didn't see them every day patrolling the area.

MR BERGER: Well, there were people, guards, employed by Iscor who were stationed at the main gate, you knew that, did you not?

MR KHANYILE: That is true.

MR BERGER: How did you think you were going to get out of the main gate with hundreds of men armed with dangerous weapons and this would not be seen by the Iscor personnel at the main gate?

MR KHANYILE: To explain about the gates at kwaMadala, there is a gate in front which is normally used by Iscor workers, entering the hostel. There is a gate where if you use the passage down the bridge to Iscor, it is the gate which enters kwaMadala hostel. Those people who were guarding the gate which enters kwaMadala hostel, were residents of kwaMadala hostel. They were Inkatha members together with us.

The very same pain that we feel, I would say they experienced it. Therefore we were sure that they will never report us to the Police or pass out information.

MR BERGER: What made you so sure that the Police or the Army that is the Vaal Commando, or the Iscor Security personnel who used to patrol in the area to your knowledge, what made you so sure that they would not be there on that night to witness hundreds of armed men, moving in the direction of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, since most of the majority of people staying in kwaMadala was Zulu speaking people, if we have concluded this mission which we wanted to accomplish, what will happen in future, is something that we don't discuss or we will see what will happen.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, it occurred to you that the guards at the main gate would not report you because they were also IFP members.

I put it to you it must have occurred to you that as you were moving on that main road from kwaMadala to Boipatong, you could have been discovered by the Police, the Army or Iscor personnel, am I right?

MR KHANYILE: That we said, come what may.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that you knew that even if the Police or the Army or Iscor Security personnel saw you, they would not take any action against you?

MR KHANYILE: I said Mr Berger, what we were going to do was something which was unlawful. Whether the Police were to see us or the soldiers, they had the right to arrest us.

MR BERGER: When you came out of Boipatong, and perhaps I can refer you to some statements, Chairperson, in preparation for this hearing and in accordance with your wishes at the last hearing, we furnished the Evidence Leader and Mr Prior had copies of certain statements from SADF personnel, Iscor personnel and those statements were copied and given to our learned friends as well. I don't know if the Committee received copies.

Might I formally introduce this statements at this time Chairperson? The last exhibit number was K. Could we go through them and just identify the statements and then give them numbers.

The next one should be the affidavit of Geldenhuys.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on a second. Okay, yes, go ahead.

MR BERGER: Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairman, I just want an indication at this stage if Mr Berger intends calling these witnesses, because he wants to refer to certain statements, affidavits, but I cannot see the relevance if these witnesses aren't called at a later stage, and secondly I would submit that the issues raised in these affidavits, and I have looked at them, are actually irrelevant to the issues before this Committee at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, your response?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, one of the issues before this Committee is the issue of full disclosure. It would have become abundantly clear from the questions that I have been putting, that we contend that there was direct Police involvement in the massacre and as far as the SADF is concerned, at the very least and I don't know if I will be able to prove any more, complicity to the extent that the SADF saw this group of attackers on their own statements, leaving Boipatong and doing nothing about it.

The statement that I want to refer to in particular ...

CHAIRPERSON: If the members of the South African Defence Force saw the attackers leaving Boipatong, how was that relevant to the issue of full disclosure in so far as these applicants are concerned?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, not only did the SADF see them leaving Boipatong, but according to one stage, actually stopped traffic to allow the attackers to cross Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and return to Boipatong.

According to another statement, a statement of Mr Geldenhuys ...

CHAIRPERSON: I am just trying to say if the involvement of the South African Defence Force is at the level of assisting the attackers when they were leaving Boipatong, is it being suggested that these applicants who are before us, were working in collusion with the South African Defence Force simply because the South African Defence Force did nothing as they were passing?

Is that the basis of the connection?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, it goes beyond merely just letting people pass. There is also statements that the South African Defence Force was present at Nobel Boulevard when shooting was taking place in Boipatong, and never went into Boipatong to assist.

There is evidence from residents who went to soldiers of the Defence Force, asked them to go into Boipatong to assist and the soldiers said we can't go into Boipatong to assist. What I am trying to suggest to this witness is that at the time when they were in the stadium, he must have been given the assurance that the Police who he knew were in the area, that the Army who he knew were in the area, would not intervene, would not resist the attackers going to Boipatong. He must have been given that assurance.

That is why these statements are important. Chairperson, just on another level, as I understand ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay Mr Prior, what is your submission?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, it is difficult to suppress this sort of information, given the submission by Mr Berger. I think one should allow it and see how far one gets with it.

My reading of the statements in the cold light of day, certainly don't assist as far as that is concerned, but obviously Mr Berger is building up to something and we must possibly bear with him in that respect.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, my attitude is that if one wants to prove a document, one has to follow the normal procedure in proving a document through a witness.

I submit with respect, that there is no procedure in terms of which documents can merely be handed in as my learned friend wishes to do. I would submit that if he wants to hand in a document, he should prove it in the normal course of events. I submit with respect, that the document that my learned friend has made available to me, do not take the matter any further and are irrelevant.

I submit further that there is no document saying, or no statement saying that members of the Defence Force actually stopped traffic to allow the attackers to enter Boipatong. All ...

CHAIRPERSON: But the point that is being made here is that the purpose of using these statements is merely to lay the foundation for the evidence that may be led on behalf of the victims.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, my submission is ...

CHAIRPERSON: These statements are not the end in themselves.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, I accept that, but I submit that in order to put the statements to the witness, I would submit that it should appear clearly from the statements that there is some form of complicity and my submission is that these statements merely show that after the event, some members of the South African Defence Force, saw people returning to the kwaMadala hostel.

That, with respect, shows no complicity whatsoever.

CHAIRPERSON: But if his submission is sound, it may well be that if they were there when the people left Boipatong, they may well have been there when the people went to Boipatong because of the time span.

MR DA SILVA: Chairperson, I can't take the matter further than what I am submitting now, but I would submit that if my learned friend wants to lead evidence in that regard, there should be factual evidence in that regard. It is mere speculation whether they were there before the attack or not.

CHAIRPERSON: You know that it is the applicant's case, he is merely using this statement for the purpose of the cross-examination. I would assume that as and when his turn comes, he will lay the proper foundation for this statement if the need arises.

If for example the witness admits the content of this statement, it won't be necessary to call this witness. Do you see the point?

MR DA SILVA: I won't take the submission any further Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: This statements will be allowed.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I am mindful of your ruling, but just for the purposes of completeness, might I add that in terms of Section 19(4)(b), that it says that at any hearing the Committee shall inform persons referred to in paragraph (a) and that includes victims of their right to be present at the hearing and to testify, adduce evidence and submit any article to be taken into consideration.

That is what we are doing, we are submitting articles to be taken into consideration.

CHAIRPERSON: ... statement, we have ruled Mr Berger, that the statement will be allowed.

MR BERGER: Could the statement of Hendrik Johannes Geldenhuys, which has a typed A1220 in the right hand corner, Exhibit L, Jakobus Daniel Venter, A1027 - I am sorry Chairperson, we can't hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: I am saying that because this statement appear to be in the form of a bundle, shall we not just mark them L1 through to the end. Let's just get the order right.

The first statement is that of Jakobus Daniel Venter.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, would it be impossible to change the order? Never mind, they have already been stapled, so then if you could just tell me what the order is.

CHAIRPERSON: The first one is Daniel Jakobus Venter, which is marked 12. That is A1027 on the right hand side column. Right, so that would be - did you say Exhibit L1, yes, very well.

MR BERGER: Which one is L2?

CHAIRPERSON: Van Straaten, A4 yes. That would be L3. L4, right. And then the next one is Kobus Barend du Plessis, A2. That would be L5, L6.

Then there is another Gerhardus Jakobus van Straaten, which is A1025. That will be L7, L8, L9, L10. And then there is yet - well another Jakobus Barend du Plessis, which is A1024. That would be L11, L12.

Then the next statement is that of Theunis Lodewikus Steyn, which is A5(a).

MR BERGER: Chairperson, it should be A9(a).

CHAIRPERSON: All right, that would be L13, L14 and then there is another statement by Jakobus Daniel Venter.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, that seems to be a duplicate. If that is A1027, yes, that is already L1.

CHAIRPERSON: The first statement by Venter, well, no the last statement by Venter appears to have some kind of a signature just above A1027, the very last statement. The last statement by Daniel Venter, top right hand corner.

MR BERGER: I don't have that Chairperson, and that is perhaps because I have discarded the other one as being a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: There isn't any, so are you satisfied that this is one and the same statement?

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So we can discard this last one? Okay, very well. I am told there is a further statement, Hendrik Johannes Geldenhuys, A1220, that would be L15, L16. Would that be the last statement?

MR BERGER: Yes, that is correct, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Does everyone have all those Exhibit numbers?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Mr Chairperson, but if there is going to be reference and the witness is going to refer to some of these statements, he hasn't got a copy of the statements. The witness hasn't got a copy of the statements, but we will see if we can cope by sort of assisting the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Khanyile, there is a statement, this is L15 and L16 of a Mr Hendrik Johannes Geldenhuys. He was a Security Guard at Metal Box. This is Metalbox on Nobel Boulevard, well it is on Nobel Boulevard and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and Nobel Boulevard is that road of firms that you spoke about yesterday.

This Mr Geldenhuys saw an SADF Buffel drive along Nobel Boulevard from east to west, in other words from Slovo Park towards kwaMadala hostel, before he heard any shots being fired from Boipatong. He says that after the first shot, the Buffel rode back towards Cape Gate and thereafter, says Mr Geldenhuys, screaming and shooting was heard from Boipatong.

I can also just tell you that Mr Geldenhuys was doing foot patrols from gate 1 to gate 2 of Metal Box, that is from Frikkie Meyer to Nobel and back. He started his shift, well he started the foot patrols from a quarter to eight that evening.

Now my point is this, he doesn't hear any screaming and shooting until after the first shot, and he sees the Buffel coming from the direction of Slovo Park, before he hears the first shot. That is why I am suggesting to you Mr Khanyile, that the Army was indeed present in the vicinity of Boipatong before the first shots were fired. Do you wish to comment on that?

MR KHANYILE: As I have explained yesterday, that I only saw soldiers when we were moving out of Boipatong. At no time did I see Police or soldiers, I again saw them at the gate when we arrived at kwaMadala hostel, they were talking to Mr Mthembu. That was the only two instances where I saw the soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, when we last said there was some indication that we were going to get a map, depicting this whole area, do you know what has become of that?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I have been given rather startling information and that is that the Exhibits and this map was apparently one of those Exhibits that my learned friend was talking about, Exhibits have vanished and that they are neither in Bloemfontein nor in Pretoria.

I don't know whether my learned friend has any further information. That is what we were informed by Mr Wessel Janse van Rensburg.

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I have no further information Mr Chairperson. We could not find any Exhibits. I just had the Exhibits that I used during the trial myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, what I will do, I will speak to my learned friend during the adjournment, because his Attorneys I would have thought as being the Attorneys of appeal, would have access to the Exhibits, but perhaps my learned friend could assist with his Exhibits.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairperson, I acted in the trial as a pro deo counsel. I at that stage didn't have an Attorney. The appeal started as a pro deo appeal. What happened after the trial, I don't know what happened to Exhibits, they were processed in the normal course. I've got no knowledge.

MR BERGER: We will do our best to put together a map. Mr Khanyile, you can't - you say that you have no knowledge of an SADF vehicle being in the vicinity of Nobel Boulevard, down Cape Gate way before the attack started?

MR KHANYILE: I repeat and I say I deny that.

MR BERGER: Then there is an affidavit from Jakobus Daniel Venter, L1, he was doing a camp in Vaal Commando at the time. He says that at some point he noticed 200 people in the veld opposite the Trek garage. He says that the Buffel then went down to Cape Gate, made a U-turn and came back and when they came back, that this group had grown to about 500.

He says one person in the group stood up, made a hand signal after which the rest of the group followed. Does that sound familiar to you?

MR KHANYILE: That never occurred, or it is not true.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that at no stage were you part of a group of 200 or 500 in the veld, opposite the Trek garage just outside of Boipatong, on the eastern side of Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR KHANYILE: The first time we met, it is before we reached the Trek garage, we didn't pass the Trek garage or via the Trek garage. We were one group.

MR BERGER: Perhaps you are misunderstanding me Mr Khanyile.

At a time when you were leaving Boipatong, did you gather in the veld just outside of Boipatong, before crossing Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, yesterday you testified did you not, that at some point after you had left the hostel, you stopped under a tree.

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how far this tree is from the Trek garage?

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Chairperson, sorry to interrupt. I have found an aerial photograph in the record, which may be of some assistance to everybody to point out certain places. If I can hand this up and the tree is also for instance indicated on this photograph, that can show the whole scene, it depicts the whole area, the hostel kwaMadala, the factories, the streets, etc.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a key to this map?

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairperson, I am sure everything is in this Volume, I will just get it.

CHAIRPERSON: You just look up for the key so that we can make copies of these documents at an appropriate time, perhaps during the tea adjournment.

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: There are in fact keys available for the photographs, we will make copies during the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well. To the extent that this aerial photograph may be useful in this particular line of cross-examination that you are pursuing, do you want to defer that aspect until these copies have been made?

MR BERGER: I can do that and I can go onto something else. CHAIRPERSON: We will take the tea adjournment at eleven o'clock.

MR BERGER: I do have stuff to proceed, yes. I do have stuff to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore would you just defer that line of questioning then so that we can have these photocopies of this map made?

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, you testified yesterday - Chairperson, your desk is about to fall off the stage - Mr Khanyile, you testified yesterday that you entered Boipatong along Msheshwe Street.

Mr Victor Mthembu testified that you entered Boipatong along Umzimvubu Street. Which one of you are correct?

MR KHANYILE: The street which we used to enter Boipatong, is the one which I mentioned, Msheshwe.

MR BERGER: From Msheshwe, you say you went all along Msheshwe in an easterly direction, until you got to Leqwa Street. You went north along Leqwa towards the shops and you continued north along Leqwa, passed the shops, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: That happened after we divided into two.

MR BERGER: Yes, I am sorry. The entire group according to you, all 300, 400, 500 attackers entered Boipatong along Msheshwe at the southern end of Boipatong.

All of you moved along Msheshwe, until you got to Leqwa, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: If that street which crosses Msheshwe is Leqwa, that is correct.

MR BERGER: But the point is that when you got to Leqwa, you were still one group of 400 people, correct?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: There was no agreement or arrangement to split into two groups, according to you that happened spontaneously when the first shots were fired in Leqwa Street, correct?

MR KHANYILE: That is my evidence.

MR BERGER: And the group that you were in, was also the group that Damara Qonqo was in, correct?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And that group continued to move in a northerly direction towards the shops, which are situated on the corner of Leqwa and Bapedi Streets?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: That group also continued to move north, passed the shops along Leqwa Street, correct?

MR KHANYILE: What I can say is that when they reached the shop, they also dispersed. Some get into houses, some broke the windows, some followed those who were running away.

MR BERGER: In which direction did these people go?

MR KHANYILE: I said they scattered. When I say they scattered, it means they went to different directions.

MR BERGER: I see you are indicating with your arms that they went in all directions, to the left to the right, to the north, to the south, am I right?

MR KHANYILE: They scattered as I indicate.

MR BERGER: You indicate that they went to the left and to the right, is that right?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: In the vicinity of the shops, no houses were touched to the left. Can you explain that?

MR KHANYILE: Sir I won't be able to know that. I don't believe I ever gave evidence relating to that point.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what counsel is putting to you is that if the attackers ran in the direction that you indicate, one would expect that there would be damaged houses in the direction in which the attackers ran into.

What he is putting to you is that in the direction in which you say some of the attackers ran into, no houses were damaged. How do you explain that? Do you have an explanation for that?

Is that what you are putting to this witness?

MR BERGER: Indeed, that is precisely what I am putting.

MR KHANYILE: Presently I will say the question that was asked by Mr Berger and the question asked by the Judge, are two different questions.

The first question was referring, said to my left, the side to which I proceeded ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger has just confirmed that what I have just put to you, is what he wanted to ask you. Is that right Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: That is my question, yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairperson, can I just also add something here. I have indicated on the map I have in front of me, all damaged houses and three houses on the left hand side, was in fact damaged. So the statement is not correct.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I will compare maps with my learned friend and see which three houses he is referring to.

Mr Khanyile, I see that some of your co-applicants have a map. You can see that one of the applicants is looking at the map at the moment, which is now being put away.

You have had a chance to look at that map, have you not and you have had a chance to see where houses were damaged and where they weren't damaged as indicated on the map that your colleague has, am I right?

MR KHANYILE: I can see the map sir. But as to how it works, and how it is explained, I can only point on the map. I don't know how it works.

MR BERGER: And I put it to you, you have had an opportunity to discuss the map, where houses were damaged, where they weren't damaged with your applicants in preparation for your evidence yesterday and today, am I right?

MR KHANYILE: My lawyers, I have explained to my lawyers that I don't know how the map works therefore I never agreed or stated that I will be able to use the map.

MR BERGER: And you had not discussed that map with your co-applicants at any stage?

MR KHANYILE: No. We didn't and I don't know whether they have a map.

MR BERGER: As far as you are concerned, did you - when the group dispersed and went to the left and went to the right, where did you go?

MR KHANYILE: I will say at that time it wasn't easy for me to remember, it is not easy now for me to remember everything that happened.

At the time of the attack, whether I proceeded forward or I turned to the left or the right, I am not sure now.

MR BERGER: All you can remember from an hour and a half in Boipatong, is stabbing one person and throwing stones at houses, is that right?

MR KHANYILE: That is what I did.

MR BERGER: In all the time you were in Boipatong, you only saw two people who could have been killed?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, there were two whom I saw. But I heard on the news that another lot of people were injured.

MR BERGER: How many injured people did you see in Boipatong that night?

MR KHANYILE: I wouldn't have explained if I did see them, which means I didn't see them.

MR BERGER: You left Boipatong along the street where the firms are, that is Nobel Boulevard, correct?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And how big was the group that was moving with you when you moved out of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: I will say it was 150 and above.

MR BERGER: Did you enter the street, Nobel Boulevard from Leqwa Street?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR BERGER: How did you enter Nobel Boulevard?

MR KHANYILE: The road that is adjacent to the firm, we never travel on that road. We are just travelling aside or near the road.

MR BERGER: Are you saying you were walking on the pavement of that road?

MR KHANYILE: Yesterday I said we used the last street outside of Boipatong.

MR BERGER: The last street, the most northern street in Boipatong just before Nobel Boulevard is Amatolo Street and if I understand you correctly, you would have entered Amatolo Street from Leqwa Street, correct?

MR KHANYILE: If they are the ways you say it, I will say it is correct.

MR BERGER: Once again, and subject to what my learned friend's map looks like, from Leqwa Street along Amatolo and out of Boipatong, only two houses were touched. Why is that?

MR KHANYILE: Why were they not supposed to be attacked, because we went there with the aim of attacking them?

Our aim was to attack.

MR BERGER: That is my point Mr Khanyile, they were not attacked. Most of those houses, bar two, most of those houses were not attacked.

You see what I am suggesting to you is that you left Boipatong along Bafokeng Street, which is one street before Amatolo Street. On that street, almost every house was attacked. People were injured and people were killed.

MR KHANYILE: Sir, I don't understand your question. Are you directing as to why only two others were attacked or why many houses were attacked. I don't understand the direction of your question.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Berger, really, this man has said repeatedly he can't read a map. The map is a bit misleading in places, certainly the copy I've got is not very clear.

If he says the last road, it may be the last road with houses on either side, it may be the last road without houses on either side. Does it take us any further, really?

MR BERGER: Mr Lax ...

MR LAX: We just seem to be getting bogged down in this sort of detail which doesn't add a hell of a lot of value to our process.

MR BERGER: If I can just put to you Mr Khanyile why I am asking you these questions. I suggest to you that you are deliberately playing down your role in the massacre, that you are aware of many more people who were killed or injured and in particular you are aware and well aware at the time, that most of the people who were attacked, were the elderly, the children and the women of Boipatong. That is what I am putting to you.

MR KHANYILE: Do you want me to answer? My answer would be like this. As I have stated yesterday that we were about 350 to 400, therefore it is clear that I couldn't, I individually, as an individual know all the things that were, or the acts of the 400 people.

Secondly I as I am here together with my fellow applicants, you might find that our acts are just few of the acts and most of the acts were committed by those who are not here.

Therefore, Mr Berger, I would like you to understand me in this, that it was at night, I couldn't see the acts of 400 people and we were fighting. I wasn't going about recording things.

MR BERGER: Let me ask you this Mr Khanyile, why were women, old people and children killed?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, even if I personally, myself, didn't kill a child or an elderly woman, however, my view is I think you know or you are aware that when there is a war or fighting, it is not only the targets who get injured. Any one who happen to be in the vicinity, might be injured.

I think you did see wars occurring in other countries where there is a conflict within governments. However, you have seen young children who are victimised and killed first.

What I am trying to say with reference to the injured community of Boipatong, even if our main aim was to go and fight the comrades, the community was caught in the cross fire. One reason to explain this is that they were also supporting the acts of the youth against us.

If it did happen, it was to send a message to them to say that if their children do something that is wrong, they should try to talk them down, not support them.

MR BERGER: If I understand you correctly Mr Khanyile, what you are saying is that the children, the old people, the women, they were all legitimate targets, it was not a mistake that they were killed, they were deliberately killed to teach them and their sons, a lesson? Is that right?

MR KHANYILE: Those which I would like to exclude in this category is children who don't know anything. With regards to all the adults, they knew exactly what was happening. Even if they are here, as they are here in this Commission, they know exactly what I am describing.

With regards to the children, I will say they got injured as I have explained that when there is a fight, even the one who is innocent, even the innocents, they do get injured.

I will say even those who were involved in injuring children, it may be because they were so angry in such a way that they couldn't distinguish as to what they were doing.

MR BERGER: You talk about innocent people who get caught in the cross fire. But isn't it correct Mr Khanyile, that these were innocent people who were caught in the cross fire, these were innocent people who were deliberately hacked and stabbed and shot to death. Not a question of being caught in the cross fire, isn't that right?

MR KHANYILE: I don't understand as to which people you are referring to when it was plain that they should deliberately be killed.

MR BERGER: Well, I am not going to go through the whole list, but the last time we were here, I mentioned elderly people, elderly women, pregnant women and young kids, nine months, three years, four years, seven years, who were hacked and stabbed t death.

What I am suggesting to you is they were not caught in any cross fire, they were deliberately targeted. My question to you is why?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I have explained that the elderly people were involved in the killings orchestrated against us because they were supporting the killings of the IFP members and therefore we regard them as people who were involved in the killings orchestrated against us and the people whom I said were caught in a cross-fire, are young children.

However, I want you to know this Mr Berger, this is my opinion. I am not saying this because I did it, because I never killed a child. I never killed an elderly person who was female on the day.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, it is your own evidence that the killings were designed to teach the people of Boipatong a lesson. Do you still stand by that evidence?

MR KHANYILE: At that time, when we went to attack, that was my stand point, but after the attack I realised that even if it was like that, it was not necessary.

MR BERGER: Just one more question on this point. Yes, that was your attitude at the time and if it was your attitude at the time, that the residents of Boipatong needed to be taught a lesson, then I put it to you it follows that each and every resident of Boipatong, whether old or young, healthy or not, male or female, was a target for your attack. Do you agree?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I am still relying on the last answer that I gave you.

MR BERGER: Can I take that as a yes to my question?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I said to you our aim was to attack the comrades who were killing us. Together with the community of Boipatong, which community supported this comrades, which means that the things that were done by the comrades, were accepted by the community. They regarded the comrades who were killing us and burning us, as heroes.

Therefore those people were the people we were aiming to avenge against. With reference to children, I said to you they were caught in the cross fire.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, would this be an appropriate time to take the short adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the tea adjournment and come back at half past eleven.

VINCENT KHANYILE: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: (cont)

Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, as far as the map of Boipatong is concerned, and the houses that I put to Mr Khanyile...

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to that which we have here?

MR BERGER: I am referring to Exhibit J, yes. My learned friend's map and mine, are in fact the same and we are agreed that in the vicinity of the shops, there were no houses damaged to the left of Leqwa Street.

We are agreed on that now. My learned friend thought I was referring to a different area.

CHAIRPERSON: At one stage you put to Mr Khanyile that only two houses were damaged along Amatolo Street, whereas according to the map, Exhibit J, there appears to be four.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I was referring to that part of Amatolo Street to the left of Leqwa Street, being the route that Mr Khanyile would have followed out of Boipatong.

There is one house on the corner of Leqwa and Amatolo and there is one right at the end of Amatolo, towards Thembu Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, given what we know about the attack, can you put forward any political objective of the IFP which would have been satisfied by this attack?

MR KHANYILE: My understanding, it was an avenge for the killing of the IFP members and I think this is the point which it is politically motivated, the other political gain is after that attack, the killings of IFP members have extremely decreased.

As I am speaking today here, IFP members Vaal, they are free to walk wherever they want to go.

MR BERGER: Revenge as you have said many times, was your reason for the attack and you say that was the reason given by Mr Damara Qonqo, when he said today is the day to take revenge.

That was not a political objective of the IFP and so I ask you again, what political objective of the IFP were you pursuing when you attacked Boipatong?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, can we really take it further than what the witness has told us as to what the political objective he thought they were going to achieve by the attack?

MR BERGER: Perhaps I could put this then Chairperson. The leader of the Inkatha Freedom Party, Mr Mangosuthu Buthelezi said the following after the attack: He said, such brutality shocks the sensibility of even the most brutal people. It leaves civilised mankind stunned at the viciousness of man. My deepest sympathy goes out to all relatives and loved ones of those who died so hideously at the hands of brutal men.

He also offered his and the IFP's and I quote "fullest support for any enquiry into the mindless killings of innocent people that took place".

At the time of the attack, the leader of the IFP and the IFP condemned this attack absolutely and said that it was the mindless killing of innocent people.

At no stage since that condemnation, has the IFP retracted it or taken responsibility for this attack. What I want to suggest to you Mr Khanyile, is that the political aims of the IFP were not furthered by this attack, nor was the attacked sanctioned by the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, do you understand what the question is?

MR KHANYILE: I did understand part of the question, but I didn't get the full understanding because it is a long statement.

What I understood was the statement given by Chief Gatsha Buthelezi, my answer to that question I would say to Mr Berger, you know politics. Chief Buthelezi's answer was also a political answer. To explain further, even the top rank leadership of the ANC did read the statement about the Boipatong issue, they were not present, they didn't know what happened, so I would say that is how the politic game is.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, my question is really this. Other political parties for example the PAC took responsibility for the actions of their members.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairman, with respect, I don't want to intervene, but having dealt with a lot of these matters, it wasn't always the case where the leadership, the political leadership were aware of these matters.

Certainly at some later stage, responsibility was or was not accepted, depended on the situation. Unless my learned friend has some basis upon which he can make the statement, I don't think it is fair that it is put on that to him that other political parties accepted responsibility for such acts, therefore ...

MR BERGER: I don't know if I articulated it or if it was just in my head, but the point that I was making was that other political parties at other times, either at the time of the commission of the offence, or subsequently, took responsibility for the actions of their members.

CHAIRPERSON: But what does that have to do with Khanyile? What you should put to Mr Khanyile is the question, if you are suggesting to Mr Khanyile that at no stage did the IFP, on whose behalf he states that he was acting at the time, did it take responsibility for their actions. That is the question you should put to him, which is a more direct question.

MR BERGER: I will do that Chairperson. Mr Khanyile, you have heard the question, I will repeat it to you.

At no stage since Chief Gatsha Buthelezi made the statement condemning the mindless killing of innocent people, at no stage from then until now, has the IFP taken responsibility for your actions and what I want to suggest to you is the reason for that, is that your actions were in no way designed to further the political objectives of the IFP.

MR KHANYILE: I think Mr Berger, taking into account that many people have died for nothing, I have never heard that any particular organisation have accepted that it is their own people who killed people.

All that I normally hear is this political comments which I have just explained to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you should just respond directly to the question Mr Khanyile. You see, you have told us that in engaging in the conduct in which you yourself and your co-applicants engaged in on the day in question, you were furthering the political objectives of the IFP.

You have described what those objectives were. Do you understand so far?

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is not being put to you is this, the leader of the IFP condemned the attack on Boipatong. Do you understand so far? And what is being put to you therefore is that that condemnation, suggests that you were not furthering the aims of the IFP. What is your answer?

MR KHANYILE: As I have explained yesterday, that politics to us, the black people, came in a different fashion. I personally, even if I don't know the constitution of the organisation or its provisions, all that I knew is that all that we were doing, we were doing it as an avenge and also bearing in mind that an organisation might benefit from it.

MR BERGER: Isn't the truth Mr Khanyile, that the attack was ordered by Mr Themba Khosa as part of his reign of terror in the Vaal and as part of his - the only word that I can use is - Chiefdom if you know what I mean.

INTERPRETER: We don't know what you mean.

CHAIRPERSON: You should explain it to him, so that he can understand the question.

MR BERGER: I am sorry Chairperson, I didn't hear what you said. Just for the sake of the Interpreters, Chiefdom means an area under control of a Chief or some leader of some description.

Mr Khanyile, in other words, what I am putting to you is that Mr Themba Khosa who ordered the attack, that he was not acting on behalf of the IFP at that time, he was acting for his own motives and not in the furtherance of IFP policy.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, let me break down this statement, there are two questions to it. The first one is that, Themba Khosa ordered the attack on Boipatong, do you agree with that statement?

MR KHANYILE: I don't agree with that. I was still going to ask him as to where did he get that information.

CHAIRPERSON: The second part of the question is that in ordering the attack on Boipatong, Themba Khosa was not furthering the aims of the IFP, he was doing it for his own personal gains? What is your answer to that question?

MR KHANYILE: It put me in a difficult position to put this question.

MR BERGER: Why?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger as I am giving evidence here, I never mentioned the name of Themba Khosa as one who is involved in the attack.

It surprises me that you are asking me a question in that fashion.

MR LAX: Mr Khanyile, just comment on what he put to you, as Judge Ngcobo explained, you either agree with it or you don't agree with it. Let's not get bogged down in an argument please.

MR KHANYILE: I can't comment, I don't know.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, were you aware at the time of the attack, that there were people in Boipatong who were not supporters of the ANC?

MR KHANYILE: To my knowledge, I used to know that all the people, the residents of Boipatong, were ANC members.

MR BERGER: In fact, according to Mr Themba Khosa, there were leaders of the IFP in Boipatong at the time of the attack, did you know that?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR BERGER: Further according to Mr Themba Khosa, some of the deceased who died in your attack, were members or supporters of the IFP, did you know that?

MR KHANYILE: If that was the case, we would have been informed and we would have gone to their funeral, therefore I say I do not know about that.

MR BERGER: What were you chanting as you rampaged through Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: We were just - we last chanted at the stadium, shouted Usuthu.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that Usuthu is a typical battle cry?

MR KHANYILE: Even if there is no battle, when we are armed with traditional weapons, we normally shout this chant.

MR BERGER: What does it mean?

ADV SIGODI: Mr Berger, may I ask where is this line of questioning taking us, of what significance is it going to be?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, sorry through the Chair, we are busy putting together a memorandum as we promised the last time, to set out the facts which we intend to place before the Committee and if there are any facts which are in dispute, we will then lead evidence on that.

One of the paragraphs in that memorandum mentions that as the attackers were moving through Boipatong, they were chanting Usuthu.

ADV SIGODI: That is why he does agree but he is also saying that they were at war, and if it was at war and you are saying that this was a war cry, I mean where does it take us in getting at the truth?

MR BERGER: I was just taking up on the point he said, it wasn't chanted in Boipatong, he said it was chanted at the stadium. I want ...

ADV SIGODI: What difference will it make to the hearing as a whole?

MR BERGER: I was just trying to remove this as a dispute in our memorandum, but I can leave it there.

Mr Khanyile, what was the point of stealing property and destroying property in Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: According to our own tradition or custom, if there is a battle, you normally if you conquer, you will eat whatever you find, whether it is cattle or goats. Whatever you find.

MR BERGER: Would I be correct then to say that if there is a battle and one of the objectives of destroying the enemy is to leave the enemy in poverty and to at the same time, to enrich the estate of the victors?

MR KHANYILE: With reference to goods, when I went out of the hostel in 22 July 1990, I got out wearing a tracksuit. All my property was left in the hostel.

I am trying to explain that it is normally the case that when we attack people or we get attacked, you normally take something to show that you won the battle.

MR BERGER: I think from your answer, that you are agreeing with me, but I don't want there to be ambiguity Mr Khanyile.

You left KwaMasiza with the clothes on your back, is that what you are saying?

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't understand this witness to say when he left Boipatong, he had ...

MR KHANYILE: What I said yesterday is that I did see people carrying goods. I wasn't staying at KwaMasiza, I was staying in the hostel in Sebokeng.

CHAIRPERSON: He is referring to Masiza hostel.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I was going back, but it has been confusing, so I will state the point.

Correct me if I am wrong Mr Khanyile, but when you left whichever hostel you were chased out of, I am now going back - you mentioned the 22nd of July 1990, you left with no possessions, am I right?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And traditionally when there is a war, what you are saying is that one of the objects of the war is to destroy the enemy and in destroying the enemy, you leave the enemy without possessions, and that is why you take possessions from the enemy and in so doing you enrich the estate of the people who win the war. Do I understand you correctly on that?

MR KHANYILE: I will say even if that is not one of the aims that you should take goods from the enemy, but it is normally the case that when we fight, it is not the goal but it is the kind of thing that normally happen in a situation like that.

With reference to impoverishing others and we gaining, I will say I also suffered the same consequences.

MR BERGER: I asked you why property was destroyed and stolen in Boipatong and your answer was that is what always happens in a war. Do I understand you when you say that you were referring to what happened historically?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I have tried just now to explain. I don't know if you understand me. I said this is not a written rule that every time when you fight, you should take goods or cattle or anything, but it is a usual thing that happens in our tradition, that when you fight you take goods.

Even if at some times the goods are not normally taken, but usually it happens that goods are taken.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Khanyile, talking about tradition, is it not so that usually when there is battle, women and small children will be saved, they wouldn't be attacked and killed, in fact they will be taken back by the victorious party?

MR KHANYILE: The olden days' wars were different to our today's wars, today even women are involved in the war.

Therefore we can't compare wars of those days and the wars of today because when people are attacked and killed or thrown at with stones, you find that women are involved, therefore it is different to those olden days.

MR SIBANYONI: But in so far as taking the property or destroying it, you are prepared to compare the type of your attack with the olden wars?

MR KHANYILE: I wasn't trying to say that was the goal, I was just giving an example.

MR BERGER: Would I be correct to say that on what you have said, that the purpose of a war historically and the war or the attack on Boipatong, was to destroy the enemy both physically and economically?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I think it will be difficult to compare what happened in history and now. I was just taking an example from history, because the things that are happening today, never happened before in history.

As I have stated, women were not involved, they wouldn't go into the Army, into war, so these are things which happens today, therefore we cannot compare them with the things that happened in history.

To explain things that happened in history, is just that it was the usual, the normal thing, the custom that things were taken after the battle. I wasn't saying I am comparing things of today and things of the past.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, you evoked history and all I am trying to do is to make sure that there is no ambiguity in your answer. I am trying to establish whether you are saying that it is usual in war for the victorious party to steal the property of the vanquished party?

MR KHANYILE: Firstly, in our Zulu tradition, we don't consider that as theft, it is things that are won in the battle therefore I will say it is usual, I don't say I did it myself, but I will say it is usual, it happens.

I have seen it happening in the fights at home when the people are fighting. I am not saying exactly that is what happened.

MR BERGER: I think we have got to the point now where I can say to you that the property which was taken from the residents of Boipatong by the attackers, was taken as property which had been won in battle, would you agree with that?

MR KHANYILE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: Can we go back now to the questioning about the SADF. There are certain maps which my learned friend kindly provided to us. Do you have the maps in front of you Mr Khanyile?

MR STRYDOM: Do you mean the aerial photographs Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: I am sorry, yes, I do. Chairperson, could we mark these as Exhibit M, there is M1 and M2. Each photograph appears to have a key attacked to it.

M1 will be the black and white photograph and M2 will be the colour. Mr Khanyile, do you have the photographs in front of you?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: If you look at M1, you will see that is an aerial photograph showing kwaMadala at the bottom of the photograph, Boipatong at the top of the photograph and ...

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I can see.

MR BERGER: And if you look and see there is a letter marked C and it points to a building at a certain intersection, at the corner of an intersection. That building is the Trek garage at the corner of Frikkie Meyer and Nobel Boulevard.

Can you comprehend what is being shown on this photograph? Mr Khanyile, do you understand what is being shown and can you identify that that is the garage at the corner?

MR KHANYILE: I already mentioned that I have got difficulty with reading the map, but I will agree with you as you are telling me.

MR BERGER: You can see from that corner all the way to the left of the photograph, you will see there is an area of veld between Boipatong and that road which is running there which is Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, do you see that area of veld?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I can see it.

MR BERGER: The statement which I was reading to you earlier, I was dealing with the statement of Jakobus Daniel Venter, and he says in paragraph 5, Exhibit L1, that he made a U-turn at Cape Gate and came back towards the open area of ground. This would be the open area of ground between Boipatong and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard.

He says that when they arrived there, he saw that there was a group of approximately 500 people. One in that group, stood up, made a hand signal and the others followed him.

Does that ring any bells, do you know what this man is talking about?

MR KHANYILE: Nothing like that happened. We just crossed the road to the other side.

MR BERGER: He goes on in paragraph 6 to say, well I left your pardon, I have left out a sentence in paragraph 5. He said the man made the hand signal, the crowd followed and they moved in a westerly direction towards kwaMadala hostel. He says that his vehicle followed this group to the robot and at the robot, Corporal Van Straaten stopped oncoming traffic.

He says shortly thereafter everybody was already over the road, he is talking about the crowd, and he then says that him, he and his vehicle, moved towards the main gate of the hostel.

Does any of that sound familiar to you?

MR KHANYILE: I will try to explain briefly. When we came together and formed one group, I think it was at Cape Gate, we proceeded with the street which is adjacent to the (indistinct), we never use a tarred road which is adjacent to the fence.

We proceeded towards the passengers' bridge, that is where we crossed, we proceeded towards the passengers' bridge, that is where we crossed. We never used the Boulevard road. The soldiers whom you said stopped their cars, I didn't see them.

I only see soldiers on the big road called Frikkie Meyer when we were approaching this road, when we were about to cross the pedestrian bridge. They retreated back and stopped at a garage, therefore we crossed the road and proceeded forward.

That is what happened.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that the soldiers saw you, and then retreated away from you?

MR KHANYILE: They saw us, whether they were retreating or not, I don't know, but they did move back until the stop at the garage.

MR BERGER: And then after you had crossed Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, you say that you then proceeded across the area of veld. Do I understand you correctly that you then got back onto the main road, you went under the bridge again and you went back into kwaMadala through the main gate?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, it is as I explained, that when we crossed the pedestrian bridge, there is a small path next to a building which joins the tarred road after you pass under the bridge.

MR BERGER: But it is correct is it not, that you then got onto the main road and you walked along the main road and you entered kwaMadala hostel back through the main gate?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, Frikkie Meyer is this way, when we were coming from Boipatong, we crossed over the pedestrian bridge, we didn't cross the main road, we use a small foot path which goes along the building. We only joined the tarred road after passing the small bridge and then we turned to our left and get to kwaMadala hostel.

We never walked along Frikkie Meyer, we just crossed it.

MR BERGER: I understand your evidence on that point Mr Khanyile, what I am trying to ascertain is, and perhaps I can ask you this, for how long did you and the other attackers walk along the tarred road which leads into the main entrance of kwaMadala? Can you perhaps indicate in court for how long were you on the tarred road?

MR KHANYILE: What I am trying to explain to you sir, is that we never walked on the tarred road. We crossed the Frikkie Meyer road and we used the pedestrian path when we were going to kwaMadala hostel.

It means when we enter the tarred road after passing the small bridge, the distance from there to kwaMadala hostel is about 150 metres.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, am I correct on this, that all the attackers returned to kwaMadala through the main gate, through the same gate that they had left out of? Am I correct on that?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now the main gate leads directly onto a tarred road, am I correct?

MR KHANYILE: When you get out of kwaMadala through the main gate, you enter the tarred road which goes passed through the bridge, it is a short distance. However, we used the pedestrian path to walk to the hostel.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Berger, I am getting, I am really feeling that I am hesitant to interrupt you, but where is all of this taking us? You know, the picture is self evident, the photograph makes it perfectly clear what he is saying and you can even see the pedestrian path that goes from the foot bridge to just near where the road goes under the bridge, as he describes it.

Why are we wasting so much energy on such a tiny little, what doesn't seem very material, issue?

MR BERGER: For this reason and I will just put the point, and move on. The ...

CHAIRPERSON: Let me please ask you. Let's just focus on issues that are material to the question that we have to decide here. If there is anything or whether these people walked on the tar road or on the foot path, put that to the witness.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, in my submission there is a material issue here and the material issue relate to again full disclosure.

The witness says that the attackers re-entered kwaMadala hostel through the main gate. The Army say that they saw this group of attackers, they proceeded directly to the main gate and the attackers were not there, they had disappeared into the veld.

So, I either ...

CHAIRPERSON: But put that to the witness. Just put it to the witness because what he is saying is manifestly obvious from the map. Is there anything to controvert what he is saying, then just put it to him so that he can have the opportunity to deal with that.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, this is what it boils down to. You say that you and all the other attackers re-entered kwaMadala through the main gate. The Army personnel whose affidavits I have, say that after seeing you crossing Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, they proceeded to the main gate, and none of you were there.

What they are saying is that all of you somehow disappeared into the veld and were never seen again. Either you are not telling the truth or they are not telling the truth. What I want to know from you is who is not telling the truth?

MR KHANYILE: I am trying to explain to you Mr Berger, that the Police I would say - correct that, the soldiers came about five minutes, in five minutes' time after we had arrived at kwaMadala.

As I was walking on this pedestrian path, we left the soldiers standing at the Trek garage. We were rushing as we could see we are afraid that we have to rush into the kwaMadala hostel after seeing them. What I can say, that whoever says something to the contrary is not telling the truth, but the fact that they did come to kwaMadala after some few minutes, is true.

MR BERGER: After you entered kwaMadala, you went straight to the stadium. Did you have a conversation with Moses Mthembu at the main gate before you went to the stadium or after?

MR KHANYILE: I believe when we entered the gate coming from Boipatong, Mr Mthembu was at the gate in the small office. When coming back from the stadium, I went to him in that small office. Before we could discuss anything, the soldiers arrived.

MR BERGER: So you went to the stadium before you had the conversation with Mr Moses Mthembu?

CHAIRPERSON: He says he didn't have a conversation with Mr Mthembu. The Police arrived before they could have a conversation.

MR BERGER: Before you were present with Moses Mthembu at the gate when the Police arrived, before that you had gone to the stadium?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something Mr Berger, were these Police that arrived or were these Army people that arrived?

MR KHANYILE: It is only soldiers that I saw on that day.

MR LAX : ... avoid the confusion where we all start talking about the Police when in fact it is soldiers according to the evidence I have found. Please carry on Mr Berger, sorry.

MR BERGER: Thank you. Is it correct that all the attackers went back to the stadium after the attack?

MR KHANYILE: I won't be certain but I would say most of them did go to the stadium.

There are trees in the vicinity of kwaMadala, I don't know whether others proceeded to the houses or not.

MR BERGER: A few days, a day or two after the attack on Boipatong, is it correct that Mr Themba Khosa and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu came to kwaMadala?

MR KHANYILE: It is correct.

MR BERGER: Who else was with them?

MR KHANYILE: It was an Attorney, Anina van der Westhuizen. I am not too sure if I am pronouncing this name correctly.

MR BERGER: That is Ms Anina van der Westhuizen who is present today.

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that she had an Interpreter with her?

MR KHANYILE: I don't have any recollection of as to who she was with, but at the time, the Attorney said nothing to us.

The people who were busy talking to us were the Police who had been assisted by Themba Khosa in the sense that he was interpreting for them. They kept coming often for more days.

But I am not too sure if they came the same time or the Attorney followed.

MR BERGER: Well, I am more concerned with Mr Themba Khosa and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu and that meeting. Is it correct that at that meeting Mr Themba Khosa informed the residents of kwaMadala that they should burn and destroy all evidence which linked them to the attack on Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I am not in a position to respond there, because I have not heard that or I did not hear that.

What I understood then was that the Police were about 500 to 600 in number. I do trust and hope that there were some black Policemen who could have understood Themba Khosa as he was speaking because they were using the same language.

MR BERGER: Why would Mr Victor Mthembu say that Mr Themba Khosa in fact did give such an instruction if no such instruction was given?

MR KHANYILE: If I remember well, when I came back from work, I hope Themba Khosa was already there. Maybe if he did say that, he could have said that before my arrival.

MR BERGER: On what day was that?

MR KHANYILE: It was on a Thursday.

MR BERGER: Was that the day after the attack?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct. To my knowledge I think Themba came on Thursday.

MR BERGER: Where were you working at the time?

MR KHANYILE: I was working in Vanderbijlpark at a place called Supreme.

MR BERGER: Didn't you tell the Committee yesterday that from Thursday the 18th of June, none of the residents were allowed out of the hostel until the following Monday because the Police were preventing you from leaving the hostel?

MR KHANYILE: That happened on that specific day, but late in the afternoon.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that there was a time on Thursday the 18th of June, when the Police were allowing people to leave the hostel, but only after that, the Police sealed the hostel?

MR KHANYILE: What time the Police arrived in that area, I am not sure, but when I come back from work, they were present. When I left for work early in the morning, at about five o'clock, they were not there.

MR BERGER: When you left for work at five o'clock in the morning, neither the Police or the Army were there, you were allowed free access out of the hostel?

MR KHANYILE: During those times the hostel was not closed.

MR BERGER: Please answer my question - when you left the hostel to go to work at five o'clock on Thursday morning, are you saying that there were no Police and no Army personnel present outside the hostel?

MR KHANYILE: That is what I am saying.

MR BERGER: And are you saying that you and other residents of the hostel were allowed free access out of the hostel at that time?

MR KHANYILE: What I know is all the people were supposed to go to work early in the morning, they freely went to work without any prevention of getting out by the Police because there were no Police outside the gate.

MR BERGER: When you returned, you found Themba Khosa addressing a meeting, is that what you are saying?

INTERPRETER: Please, may you repeat your question?

MR BERGER: I am sorry, when you returned from work on the 18th, you found Themba Khosa addressing a meeting in the stadium?

MR KHANYILE: If I remember well, it seems to be true.

MR BERGER: At what time did you knock off work and at what time did you return to the hostel?

MR KHANYILE: I knocked off at about five in the evening. I arrived at the hostel at about six o'clock or something to six.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct Mr Khanyile, that you are once again protecting Mr Themba Khosa?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, what I would like to explain briefly is I am here to ask for amnesty for things which I know, I am not here to ask for amnesty t implicate people saying they did this and that, meanwhile they didn't, with the aim of getting myself or my application approved.

I am saying again I never found or heard or found Themba Khosa at a meeting or heard him speaking what you said he said. If he said something, it might be before I arrived at the meeting.

MR BERGER: What did he say when you were at the meeting?

MR KHANYILE: I would say sir, this was not - it wasn't a real meeting. There were questions from the Police who were investigating about the incident.

MR BERGER: Was there a time in the meeting where Themba Khosa asked the workers apart from the Police, in other words not in the presence of the Police, is it true that you are responsible for this attack, did that happen?

MR KHANYILE: No, I never heard.

MR BERGER: Can you remember actual issues which were discussed at that meeting?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, the things which were asked which I can still remember is where were we during the 17th, whether we know anything and that Police wanted us to assist them in that investigation. Those are the things that I still remember.

MR BERGER: What time did that meeting end?

MR KHANYILE: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chair. Mr Khanyile, you will recall yesterday that you told the Committee that your co-applicant Mr Buthelezi was not involved in the attack on Boipatong.

MR KHANYILE: Yes, it is true. The other one whom I have just forgotten, it was Moses Mthembu.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Khanyile, ... (tape ends) ...

MR KHANYILE: The people I am mentioning, I am mentioning because I know their whereabouts on that day. About the others, I didn't see them at Boipatong, I just heard from themselves saying they were there.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, do I understand that you are saying that both Mr Mthembu and Mr Buthelezi were not present as a fact?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct, I know that very well.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Khanyile, sir I was listening to your explanation on the injured people of Boipatong being caught in the cross-fire of the battle. There is one kind of injury and assault that you haven't dealt with, and that is with the sexual assaults and the rape of the women during the course of the attack.

Do you have any knowledge about the raping and the sexual assaults on women that night, by the attackers?

MR KHANYILE: Since I haven't mentioned that, it explains that I didn't see that happening.

MS CAMBANIS: Did you not hear any of the men boasting subsequent to the attack that that was part of the activities that took place that evening in the township during the attack?

MR KHANYILE: You mean boasting with reference to the women they have raped, or with reference to exactly the whole incident of Boipatong?

MS CAMBANIS: With reference to the women they had raped and sexually assaulted?

MR KHANYILE: No, I didn't hear something like that.

MS CAMBANIS: Sir, it is our instructions and we are in possession at this stage, of at least 11 women who were either raped or sexually assaulted by the attackers during the course of the attack.

MR KHANYILE: I am hearing it for the first time from you.

MS CAMBANIS: And the nature of some of those attacks, that they were kicked in the genital area, that metal objects were inserted?

MR KHANYILE: I didn't even hear about this, even in court. I am hearing for the first time today.

MS CAMBANIS: So what is, you didn't hear it in court. What is the significance of that?

CHAIRPERSON: What he is saying is that he is hearing it for the first time.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chair. Now finally Mr Khanyile, can you just tell me, this is the evidence that will be placed before the Committee by the victims. Can we agree that this is not part of any policy of any political party?

MR KHANYILE: I briefly explained this before that politics to the African people came as a new subject which was not known.

We were told that if anyone belongs to a particular organisation which is not the same organisation you are in, it is an enemy. In those days I am trying to explain that we didn't know anything about politics, and we don't even know the meaning of the word politics.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you very much Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Chairperson, if I can just interrupt at this stage. Towards the end of the hearing at the previous occasion, I asked for the various legal representatives for the family to provide us with a list of who they appear for.

Certain statements are being made by Ms Cambanis and she mentions 11 people that will make certain allegations. We would like the names of the people that she appear for so that we can then do our own investigations, otherwise we may end up at a later stage that we will have to do investigations at that time, delaying the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sure she is going to give you those names because she now has 11 persons who will make those allegations. I am sure she will give those names to you.

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objections to that?

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chair, I do not mind disclosing the names to the Committee and to the legal representatives. I am not happy, the clients are not happy that their names be made public. So subject to that, yes, I will make the names ...

CHAIRPERSON: There you have it. Mr Malindi?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: Mr Khanyile, may I just ask you one question. Look at page 106 which is your affidavit. Do you have it before you?

The last sentence of your affidavit on page 106, if I am translating the Afrikaans correctly, you said what happened in Boipatong should not have happened. Do I understand you well that there are other means by which this friction could have been resolved?

MR KHANYILE: I would like to briefly explain sir.

CHAIRPERSON: He has given you what he is understanding of what you are saying in Afrikaans at page 106. Do you agree with his translation, that is the first question?

MR STRYDOM: The witness does not understand Afrikaans, but what I can say is that I do not agree with his translation.

MR MALINDI: Mr Khanyile, may I just read the sentence as it is in Afrikaans. "Die situasie het hande uitgeruk en moes nooit eers so ver gevorder het nie."

My translation would be that the situation should not have gone as far as it did. Do you agree with me?

MR KHANYILE: What I was trying to tell my lawyer was that the reason why we have to take a decision to attack is that the situation was out of hand, because the government in charge at that time, was not able to protect the civilians. That is what I was trying to bring over. If he wrote it the other way around, then it is not my fault.

MR MALINDI: If that is what you intended to convey, do you agree today that there were other means available to resolve this conflict, other than launching that vicious attack on the community of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: There wasn't even a single inch or small way of doing it. I am saying this because of the following reasons: There wasn't going to be any peaceful settlement or discussion because of the prevailing situation. Secondly with reference to the law and order, I have explained that the government in charge at the time was not able to protect the people - each and every individual had to take the law into his or her own hand.

I have also given an example that a lot of IFP followers were burnt during daylight and many women who were burnt during daylight because it was alleged that they were in love with IFP members.

Many IFP houses were burnt during daylight and many African IFP members when going to town, who were abducted and put into booths and burnt in the township. In all this incidents, not even a single person was charged or convicted on such criminal acts which shows that the government of that day was failing in ruling and governing.

Up to today not even a single person came out to say we know this happened, like we did today before the Committee.

MR MALINDI: The Senior Committee at kwaMadala hostel and the Youth Committee could not have approached their ANC leadership in Boipatong or any other organisations existing in the community to resolve this conflict?

MR KHANYILE: That leader of the ANC, if he or she was seen standing next to an Inkatha leader, was going to be burnt with a tyre on that particular day.

What I am trying to explain sir, is any person who had (indistinct) on position, if your neighbour hated you, he will just point or say you are an Inkatha member, therefore you would be killed instantly.

MR MALINDI: Were any attempts made by the kwaMadala leadership to engage the help of higher organs of the IFP in resolving the conflict with the community of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: I don't remember that, if it did happen or not.

MR MALINDI: It would have been an alternative to launching an attack, isn't it so?

MR KHANYILE: I don't understand your question, may you please repeat.

MR MALINDI: Instead of launching an attack on the community of Boipatong, another way to resolve this conflict would have been to approach higher organs of the IFP to resolve the conflict with the community of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: I believe sir when you refer to higher leaders, I think you know that for Mr Mandela, the President to meet Chief Buthelezi, took a long time. I don't know which people could have met during those times as leaders of the organisations.

MR MALINDI: A moment ago you explained why the situation had come to the point where you had to launch an attack. Could you tell the Committee more or less how many IFP people were burnt by residents of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: If I remember those who were burnt Boipatong very well, it was Bongani Mbatha, Nomvula, Mr Khumalo - I forgot his name, Mr Gus who was a newsreader or the spokesperson of the IFP, Mr MBele who was abducted when coming from work in the evening, and killed somewhere. I would say there are many, but I can only mention those whom I can still remember.

And further I can say that it was not only at Boipatong where we were being killed. The whole Vaal, it was the same, it was happening everywhere in the Vaal.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination? I can't see you Mr Da Silva. Do you have any questions to put to this witness?

MS BOTHA: I have no questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA: As it pleases you Mr Chairman. Mr Khanyile, will you please look at Annexure J, the plan of Boipatong.

I see you have got Exhibit J before you, I understand from your evidence that the group moved down Msheshwe Street and turned into a northerly direction into Leqwa Street. Is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: Those who turned on Leqwa Street was the group which I was in.

MR DA SILVA: I understand from your evidence that in that vicinity before turning, that you saw a group of comrades next to a fire, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: May you please repeat, I didn't get it well.

MR DA SILVA: Is it correct that before your group turned into Leqwa Street, you saw a group of comrades next to a fire?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Is it also correct that the entrance into Boipatong where the comrades were standing, that that was barricaded with tree stumps?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the last part of your question?

MR DA SILVA: Is it correct?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, it was like that.

MR DA SILVA: So do you agree that vehicles could not move in the street, or it was very difficult to move in the streets of Boipatong?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question? Is the question that the vehicles could not move or is the question that it was difficult for them to move?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, the question is that it was very difficult for vehicles to move in the streets of Boipatong.

MR KHANYILE: What I can say, I would say it was possible for vehicles to move, but it would be difficult.

MR DA SILVA: There was a question put to you by Mr Berger in regard to a Buffel, armed vehicle, moving in the vicinity of Slovo Park. Your answer to that question was that you only saw soldiers on leaving Boipatong. At no time did you see any Police or soldiers. That was your answer.

What I want to know from you, your evidence is that at no time you saw any soldiers inside Boipatong, is that what you meant?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, that is what I am saying and I would like to stress that since it is said that we are to speak the truth here, I don't know how many have applied for amnesty in connection with this incident, but I believe that not even a single Police or soldier or white person who will come and make an application to say he or she did take part in the attack of the people at Boipatong. I am trying to stress that it never happened that Police or soldiers were involved, or white people.

I only saw soldiers when we were getting out of Boipatong. As to where they were when we entered Boipatong, I might not know.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Khanyile, will you please look at Exhibit M1, being the aerial photograph. According to that Exhibit, if you will see there is a point marked K, that apparently is the tree where the group gathered.

Does that appear to be correct?

MR KHANYILE: It looks like it, it is the way you say.

MR DA SILVA: If you still look at Exhibit M1, you will see there is a point marked H. That appears to be the foot bridge, or the pedestrian bridge. Is that where the group crossed Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR KHANYILE: I think it is correct.

MR DA SILVA: If you look further at Exhibit M1, you will see there is a further point, marked C. Is that the Trek garage where the armed vehicles retreated to?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I can see.

MR DA SILVA: Could you estimate the distance between point H and point C?

MR KHANYILE: I think it is about 400 metres.

MR DA SILVA: On crossing the foot bridge, how many people in uniform did you see, can you remember?

MR KHANYILE: I saw the soldiers' vehicle and also soldiers were at the back of the vehicle. I could see their hats, the camouflage hats or the plastic hats, or whatever.

I could only see by the way they were dressed and what was clearly visible, was their heads.

MR DA SILVA: The question was how many people do you recall seeing in uniform?

MR KHANYILE: I will say there were two who came to the office to speak to Mr Mthembu. I saw these two men, they were wearing uniform.

MR DA SILVA: The question is how many people did you see when you were crossing the pedestrian bridge at the Trek garage, how many people did you see in uniform?

MR KHANYILE: I didn't see.

MR DA SILVA: I understand your evidence to be that the people that you saw, had camouflaged uniforms, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: They were wearing brown clothes.

MR DA SILVA: I have no further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination, Mr Strydom?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you Mr Chairperson. It was suggested to you that you are protecting various other groups. I want to ask you a few questions in that regard.

Do you have any reason to protect white people that might have been involved in the attack?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, I believe that I am the one that is in a difficult situation, therefore I will not try to protect someone who is living happily with his family and children.

This is the truth which cannot be contradicted, that Police or soldiers or white people were not involved in the attack. If someone can come and say other people were involved, it could only be the soldiers who saw us coming from Boipatong, and never arrested us.

MR STRYDOM: You testified that Mfana Zulu and Themba Khosa was not involved. Do you want to protect them for any reason?

MR KHANYILE: The evidence which cannot be denied or contradicted, that Mfana Zulu was not at the Vaal during the time. I was questioned about Mr Themba Khosa. I said I didn't know and it was true, I didn't know.

And further to explain further Mr Strydom, my aim for coming here was to come and tell the truth as it happened, and also the reason why it happened. And also for the sake of reconciliation.

If the main aim was just to get myself amnesty, I would say that is not true or the main aim. I am trying to explain that since because I want amnesty, I have to lie about other people, implicating them with things which they never did or say.

From there ...

ADV SIGODI: Mr Khanyile, please would you try and limit your answers to yes or no. I think Mr Strydom is your Counsel, he is leading you, thank you.

MR STRYDOM: One last question. You have heard the names of all the people that were killed during the trial, and you have also heard the names of all the people that were injured.

Did you bear a personal grudge against any one of those people, in an individual sense?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat the last part, the very last part of your question.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I want to know if he had a problem with any individual, did he know these people that were killed or did he have problems with any individual person of the people that got killed or injured?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson. Just one little issue, Mr

Berger asked you about the Msinga contingent. What Mr Mthembu called the Msinga contingent and you said you knew of no such contingent. Is that right?

MR KHANYILE: Not that I didn't know, but they were not present.

MR LAX: Did you know of such a contingent?

MR KHANYILE: No, I didn't know, but I knew people from Msinga because I was staying with most of them in the same room. Others were staying next door or as I have already explained, there were about ten or less than ten.

MR LAX: You see these were people who we are told, had the job of defending the hostel and you don't know anything about those people?

MR KHANYILE: Within ourselves, there is no one who is defended by someone else, so I would say there wasn't such a thing.

MR LAX: So there was no Self Protection group within the hostel itself?

MR KHANYILE: All of us as the inmates, were protecting the hostel. There was no group who was given the duty to protect the hostel.

MR LAX: And just one last thing. We were told that monies were raised from those that were working, people had to contribute money towards buying food for these people. Do you know anything about that?

MR KHANYILE: Monies which I have knowledge of, which were collected in kwaMadala hostel, is monies which were collected when one of our members who passed away, if one of them passed away, we used to contribute money for the funeral and we also collected some monies as men to buy things so that when we got attacked, we would be able to defend ourselves.

Those are the monies that I know of.

MR LAX: These things you are talking about, are you talking about firearms?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Khanyile, what is your level of education?

MR KHANYILE: I went up to standard 8, but I didn't pass standard 8.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Khanyile, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, might - it does not have anything to do with Mr Khanyile, but as a result of one of his answers, might I formally direct a request through you to Adv Prior if we could see the amnesty applications for the Policemen and soldiers who have made applications for amnesty in respect of events in the Vaal? We need the permission of the TRC to have sight of those documents, only the TRC can wave the privilege.

CHAIRPERSON: You have to make an substantive application for that. As you know that applications for amnesty are confidential matters, until there is a hearing.

MR DA SILVA: Yes, that is why I am asking. Are you saying that we must make a substantive application to you or in the court?

CHAIRPERSON: Discuss the matter with Mr Prior.

Mr Strydom, are you ready with your next witness? I am sorry, I see that it is about half past one. We will take the lunch adjournment now, we will come back at quarter past two.

AMNESTY HEARING

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the next applicant is Mplupeki Samu Tshabangu. His application number is 7391/97.

CHAIRPERSON: May we first hear what language is he going to speak?

MR TSHABANGU: I will speak Zulu.

MPLUPEKI SAMU TSHABANGU: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Tshabangu, you applied for amnesty and signed a form in terms of the Act. Can you just confirm your signature as it appears on page 167 of the Bundle.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, it is my signature.

MR STRYDOM: Annexed to the application, are two pages, page 168 and page 169 which answers certain questions contained in the application. Do you confirm the contents of the annexures?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I confirm.

MR STRYDOM: You were also asked certain further particulars and answers were provided on page 172, 173, 174 of the Bundle. Do you confirm the correctness of your answers?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And then you made an affidavit on page 175 up to page 179. Do you confirm the correctness of this affidavit?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I confirm.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Tshabangu, are you a Zulu person?

MR TSHABANGU: No. I am Tsangaan, Tsonga.

MR STRYDOM: Where were you born?

MR TSHABANGU: At Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: So can I take it that you know Boipatong, the streets in Boipatong and the whole area of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go to school in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And did you later join the South African Police Service?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst at school, did you hold any position with any political organisation?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I was a member of COSAS.

MR STRYDOM: You membership with COSAS, did that lead to any trouble for you?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Can you explain please?

MR TSHABANGU: I would say what happened is during my school days, the youth in Boipatong was very active in politics. Inside the school we only had COSAS as the only organisation or student movement.

While I was in COSAS some houses belonging to the Police of the Municipality were burnt at Boipatong and it was alleged that I was one of the persons who were involved in the burning of those houses. I appeared in court and I was charged for burning those houses.

I won the case. After finishing my matric, I stayed around looking for work in the firms and other places. I ended up working with the SAP.

MR STRYDOM: Now, did that create problems for you, the fact that you joined the SAP?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes. Because after that, my former school mates turned against me and I was regarded as an enemy within the community. I think it was because they thought I was an instrument of apartheid.

The problems started from that time.

MR STRYDOM: At that stage when you were in the Police Force, were you still living in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Why did, or let me ask you this, did you at a certain stage leave Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I once left Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Can you just explain why did you leave Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: During that time, there was intensive fighting within the townships, the war was against the Police or any people who were against the ANC. On one particular day I went to work. As a Policeman I was asked to go to Sharpville and I was working in Sharpville, I was told to cool down the fighting in Sharpville.

As I was approaching Sharpville along Vuga Street, I met a big or large group of people. They said here comes in Sotho, the little boy who is cheeky.

Since I was in a van, they pulled me out of the car. The other one said let's shoot him, the others said no and I managed to escape. It was on a Sunday if I remember well.

The following Monday, it was discovered in the morning that the person involved was a teacher Leqwa Shando. The children marched to the Sharpville police station because of this incident. I was charged with criminal cases of attempted murder in this incident.

The attacks continued, directed against the Police and they were attacked by the youth who were aligned to the ANC and I wasn't staying in the township during that time, because most Policemen have to run out due to the fact that their houses were being burnt down, some of them died.

One day I visited my friend in a shibeen together with some of my other friends. A group of youth came, this youth were known to me, they were staying around Boipatong. They asked me to come out of the yard, it was at night. I said to them if you want me, you know where I stay, you can come to my home so that we can talk. Because I could see that they were prepared to fight me.

As I was sitting in the house, they came into the house. I was stabbed with a knife and also with a spade fork and they hit me with bricks. I was rescued by one of the Police who was present, who shot in the air and they ran away. I went to hospital and I was discharged.

When coming from hospital, I went to the parents of the youth since I knew them, we grew up together. Even our parents knew each other. It was the Zwane family, at Letsia in Boipatong.

I went to the mother and explained that her child have injured me and I asked them that we should sit down and talk as parents so that we can solve the problem.

The mother chased me away, saying that she doesn't want to get involved with youth issues which occurred in shibeens. I went to Vanderbijl police station to open a case. After three days, I went to the police station in Vanderbiljpark to tell the Investigating Officer that I did see the person who injured me and I demanded reasons why he wasn't arrested.

No answer was given. During the time Police were busy with investigations of investigating people who were well known, children and comrades.

MR STRYDOM: Can I just ask you to talk a bit slower, I see the Interpreters will fall behind.

MR TSHABANGU: The Police were afraid to investigate cases against the comrades, because they know very well that if you were seen as a Policeman who has arrested a comrade, you and your family are in danger or in trouble.

I did meet the youth who injured me. I was with my friends in town. We were in the same athletic club with me, I asked him, saying to him brother, since you have injured me, I just want to find out the reason why. He said to me I am an informer.

I got angry, we started beating the young man extensively and he died. That contributed towards the anger against me, there were so many attempts to kill me. I remember one incident when we had a ceremony where we slaughtered a lamb at home, it was in winter and the electricity was not working in the township.

I was asleep in my bed at around eight o'clock. I heard sounds or cracking of firearms or automatic rifles, directed towards my house. There were in the house my mother, my relatives who just visited the house and children. This happened and it passed. Even if I can't be specific with reference to dates and times, but these are the things that happened in Sharpville specifically, in Voka, we were sitting there, we were called, I was together with Bongani Mbatha and we were called and said, they said in Sotho, here are the Zulu's.

They took out, they surrounded us and they were armed, heavily armed. They said Bongani Mbatha should go, they were looking for me only. They surrounded me. Fortunately our of pure luck, I hit someone with my fist since I wasn't armed, fall on the ground and I got a passage to escape and I ran.

They shot at me as I was running away. When I was turning, they also threw a hand grenade. I was injured on my leg and I was admitted in hospital. This is one of the incidents that took place. So many times I was attacked, and also my family was attacked.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give the Committee just an indication of what period you refer to, which year?

MR TSHABANGU: I am talking with reference to between 1989 and 1992 or 1990.

MR STRYDOM: At that stage, were you a member of the IFP or not?

MR TSHABANGU: I was not an IFP member at the time. I became an IFP member after I went to live at KwaMadala hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you go to KwaMadala hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: It was the only hiding place I could stay. There wasn't any place I could go to be protected.

I could see that if I was to go and stay at any township in Vaal, whether with relatives, I could be killed at any time.

There were people whom I knew who were close to me, I was requested to go and stay with them because I was running away from being killed or burnt by the comrades.

MR STRYDOM: You gave me a photograph which shows or depicts names on a wall. Can you just give the Committee more information about what is written on the wall and where did you get this photograph from?

MR TSHABANGU: It is written Nana and Getisu, wanted dead or alive.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know where that picture was taken?

MR TSHABANGU: It was taken in the house of Buthelezi in Boipatong, Matolo Street.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if that was written on the wall before the Boipatong massacre or thereafter?

MR TSHABANGU: It was before the Boipatong massacre. I also wish to add that it wasn't only, this was not only written in Boipatong, it was written in Sharpville and also Sebokeng.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, there was an agreement between the parties before this party started, that any documents which were going to be used by the parties, would be circulated beforehand. We have not received copies of that photograph.

CHAIRPERSON: It is coming to you now.

MR STRYDOM: I want you to continue from the time you went to stay in KwaMadala hostel.

MR TSHABANGU: I stayed in KwaMadala hostel, we were locked in a kraal. We are children who grew up in a township. We are not used to live under such conditions. I will say each and every person who stayed at KwaMadala didn't like to live under such conditions.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the status of this photograph?

MR STRYDOM: I can just mention that I only received that photograph today, that is the reason why I didn't make copies. The status of the photograph, it was handed over by the person who took the photograph, to this witness. He did not take the photograph, but he says that he was aware of his name that were written all over the townships, but if need be, I will investigate who the photographer is and try to get hold of him to testify, if it is disputed that that photograph was taken by or in Boipatong.

I would ask the photograph to be handed in as an Exhibit. The next number is N, Exhibit N.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any objection to this photograph being handed in?

MR BERGER: I have no instructions Chairperson, on the status of this photograph.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the last Exhibit.

MR STRYDOM: The last Exhibit was M, so I will ask this photograph to be handed in as Exhibit N.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR STRYDOM: At the stage you moved into KwaMadala hostel, what happened to your parents, did they stay behind in Boipatong or not?

MR TSHABANGU: Before I can answer that question, I would like to state that where it is written Nana and Getisu, wanted dead or alive, these writings still exist.

My parents took me with them after my dad was caught coming from work in Iscor and he was burnt. Even today, he cannot do anything, he can't work to support my brothers, he is permanently paralysed. Therefore the duty of supporting or bringing up the children and my mother who has diabetes, it is within my hands. As I am sitting here today, I don't have a home because our house was burnt down at Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: After your parents' house was burnt down at Boipatong, where did they move to?

MR TSHABANGU: We went to hire a place at Vereeniging in one house. After four months or five, we were forced to leave because we didn't have money to pay rent to the white owner. So we had to move to KwaMadala hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know who was responsible for the burning of your father?

MR TSHABANGU: I knew it very well as to who burnt my father. I once met them and talked to them, they also admitted that they burnt him.

MR STRYDOM: Who were they? The question is these people who admitted to you that they had burnt your father, who are they?

MR TSHABANGU: It is Nunuza who is now a member of the SANDF, Maboni from Malibogo in Boipatong, Makit.

MR STRYDOM: As far as your knowledge goes, these people that you have mentioned, did they belong to any political organisation?

MR TSHABANGU: They are members of the African National Congress.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst you were staying in Boipatong, was there a group ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr, I am sorry, you have just given the names of Nunuza, Maboni and Malibogo and the last one was, the last person?

MR TSHABANGU: Chairperson, I would like to rectify. I said Maboni staying at Malibogo Street at Boipatong and Nunuza and Makit.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how to spell the name of Makit?

MR TSHABANGU: Makit.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the addresses of these people?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know the house numbers, however I know that Maboni stays together with Makit. Nunuza was staying, I last knew him staying at the place that I mentioned earlier, (indistinct), that is the place mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where he works?

MR TSHABANGU: In 1997, the last time I saw him he was a member of the SANDF, I don't know now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, it seems to me that in terms of Section 30 of the Act, these individuals who have been mentioned by Mr Tshabangu, have been implicated in a manner which may be detrimental to them and that they should receive the appropriate notice in terms of that Section. Thank you.

ADV PRIOR: I will see that it is attended to Mr Chairman.

MR STRYDOM: After you moved into KwaMadala Hostel, did you continue to experience problems?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, problems continued and they intensified. There is a lot I can say, it could be a long letter if I had to write everything down. I was enclosed in a kraal together with the people who were inmates of the hostel, we couldn't go wherever we wanted to go at a time when we wanted to go out.

We couldn't even go to church or to go to a funeral of a close friend, or visiting a friend, even going to town or to a clinic or to a hospital. We were not able to go out. If you had to go out, you were placing your life in danger.

MR STRYDOM: Did you complain to anybody in the hostel about your situation?

MR TSHABANGU: During those days, I did not specifically go to a certain person to complain about the conditions. All the people could see or it was clear to everyone that we are having a problem, until we explained to Mr Mkhize in the stadium that we are now tired, that we are killed one by one, he should give us permission to go and fight and defend ourselves.

That was the only time one person complained.

MR STRYDOM: During the evidence of the previous applicant I mentioned certain names to him, I referred him to a certain newspaper clipping. I don't want to repeat each and every incident, but do you confirm those incidents and your knowledge that you know about it?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I do confirm that. Especially if I were to briefly state something about Teacher Mbele. Teacher Mbele did teach us while we were doing standard three in primary school.

When the violence erupted and people were burnt, I was very close to Mr Mbele. He was like a friend even though he was older than me. I used to visit him, we could sit and watch TV together or do things like friends.

The reason why he was killed, I think it was because of the visit that I paid him together with my friend who passed away, Sidiso. We visited Teacher, Mr Mbele. We asked to sleep in his house. We stayed there and we had a wonderful time.

A friend of mine was burnt the same day with Mr Mbele, was Fere. On the following day when we were to leave, we got a message that he had been necklaced, burnt with a tyre and Fere was also necklaced.

I think what caused the death was because of the visit we paid to him.

MR STRYDOM: Approximately how long was that before the attack on Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I can't say. Let me say I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it have been one year or two years before?

MR TSHABANGU: If I am not mistaken, I think it is less than six months. If I remember well.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Strydom, can you just repeat the name of the second person, I just didn't catch it properly. Your friend, not Teacher Mbele the other person.

MR TSHABANGU: Fere.

MR LAX: Was that his surname or his first name?

MR TSHABANGU: It is the name through which we knew him. We used to know him, he was known as Mfere Fere and we as his friends, we used to call him Fere.

MR STRYDOM: Now, there was already mention of the meetings that took place before the attack on Boipatong. I want you to comment and state your version of what happened at the meeting where Mr Mkhize was chairing that meeting before the attack.

MR TSHABANGU: On that day, we were asked or requested to attend a meeting. We gathered and a lot of things were discussed.

Up to a stage where Mkhize had to take the stage and speak, Mkhize said stay vigilant and be prepared for a battle against the people who are always killing you, and after that, we dispersed.

He said he can't say which day, what time and where, but we should always be ready.

MR STRYDOM: What did you understand by that?

MR TSHABANGU: I understood this to mean that we should be prepared for the fight or battle.

MR STRYDOM: After that, but before the attack, did you hear anything further about the possibility of an attack on any Vaal community?

MR TSHABANGU: I am left behind, can you please repeat your question.

MR STRYDOM: After that meeting where Mr Mkhize said those things which you have just mentioned, did you hear anything further about the attack before the 17th of June 1992?

MR TSHABANGU: No, I didn't hear anything.

MR STRYDOM: What happened then on the 17th of June 1992?

MR TSHABANGU: The trumpet was blown, we went to the stadium. Arriving at the stadium, Mr Mkhize addressed us telling us that we should go fetch our arms because the day has arrived. I will say women and children did come to the stadium, they were requested to go back to the hostel.

We, the men, went back and took our arms. I personally fetched a knopkierie and the others went back to fetch whatever weapons they had and we went back to the stadium.

We were told while we were in the stadium, that there are firearms, those who want to use them, can come and collect them. I was one of those who wanted an AK47 and because the number was small, the number of firearms was not enough I found that they had already finished all the AK47's, so I was armed with a knopkierie. We were sprinkled with intelezi and then we left KwaMadala hostel.

MR STRYDOM: At the stadium when you arrived back with your knopkierie, who was the people in control?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you carrying a knopkierie or a stick?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, it is a knopkierie.

CHAIRPERSON: You were carrying an ordinary stick?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, an ordinary stick. When I am referring to stick, I don't mean a small stick that you can pick from a tree, I mean a stick, big stick which you can hit a person to the extent that he can die.

MR STRYDOM: I asked you who the people in control were at the stadium when you returned with the stick?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't remember exactly those people. I think Mkhize was one of the people who were in charge at the stadium.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember what instructions if any, was given at the stadium before you left the hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: I never heard any instruction discussed.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you decide to join the group to go to Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I think we have the common suffering, the people who stay within the KwaMadala hostel, as opposed to those who were staying outside the hostel. Therefore I identified myself with them, with reference to things like burning and other many things.

We were also the victims because the ANC attacks were directed against us. I think there are many reasons, but I think the few that I mention are the most important reasons why I identified with the group and I accompanied them.

MR STRYDOM: Did you realise that some people may identify you in Boipatong?

INTERPRETER: Please may you repeat the last part of your statement?

MR STRYDOM: Did the applicant realise that certain people may identify him in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, it did come to my mind.

MR STRYDOM: But why did you go nevertheless?

MR TSHABANGU: I have already convinced myself that I won't enter the houses because it was going to be easy for them to recognise me in the houses. I stayed in that place for more than 20 years.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you also called Nana?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: I want you to have a look at the aerial photograph in front of you, that is Exhibit M1. Can you just show the route and explain the route that the group followed into Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know where I have to start, is this the line, a railway line?

MR STRYDOM: Just have a look at the Exhibit, do you understand the Exhibit. Do you see the hostel, do you see Boipatong townships and do you see the factories?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did you leave the hostel through the main gate?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did you - I am going to lead the witness where I think there is no dispute, did you follow the route adjacent to the tar or in the tar towards Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Close to the intersection of Nobel Boulevard and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, one can see a certain area with what appears to be a hedge or trees surrounding that area. Can you just explain what that is?

MR TSHABANGU: It is a nursery. We went behind it.

MR STRYDOM: If you say behind it, did the group move through the veld towards that pedestrian bridge?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you see on the Exhibit what appears to be a tree next to the township?

MR TSHABANGU: If you are referring to point K, yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did the group move passed that tree?

MR TSHABANGU: What happened is when we arrived under the tree, we all sat down. Then we divided into two groups and walked down Msheshwe Street and entering Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Msheshwe Street is the most southern street of Boipatong, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Which group were you?

MR TSHABANGU: I was in Mr Qonqo's group.

MR STRYDOM: Where did that group enter Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: We proceeded along Msheshwe Street, we turned up and entered Leqwa Street.

MR STRYDOM: Did anything of note happen in that area?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, something happened. As we proceeded along Msheshwe Street, in one point I think it is Tserela Combined School, the place was barricaded with razor wire and some few logs. We removed the barrication out of the way and we proceeded.

We removed the wire which was used to barricade the street. We proceeded and before we reached Leqwa Street, we met a group of young people, I think they were SDU members. Then the shooting took place from both sides.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see who fired shots in your group?

MR TSHABANGU: If I remember well, it is Damara who shot.

MR STRYDOM: What kind of weapon did he have?

MR TSHABANGU: An AK47.

MR STRYDOM: After the shots were fired, what happened to the people you referred to as the Self Defence Unit?

MR TSHABANGU: They retreated, started running away, jumping the fences, entering into some of the houses, were insulting them and our group went up along Leqwa Street where they ran, the other group continued along Msheshwe Street.

MR STRYDOM: What did you do in Boipatong?

MR LAX: Sorry, just before you go on. You said something about inciting people, they were jumping over fences, inciting people. What did you mean by that?

CHAIRPERSON: Insulting?

MR TSHABANGU: I said we were insulting them. I am one of those who were insulting them.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go into any houses in Boipatong?

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute. When you left the hostel, you were a big group, right?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... which is K< I think it is, is that where you first split into two groups?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And your group entered through Msheshwe Road?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what happened to the other group?

MR TSHABANGU: We divided into two groups, but both groups were using the same street to enter.

CHAIRPERSON: So both groups were in Msheshwe?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You then mentioned that when the people that you believed to be SDU members, ran into Leqwa Street?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Which group was this now?

MR TSHABANGU: It was the group which turned to the left at Leqwa Street, which was under the command of Mr Qonqo. The other group proceeded along Leqwa Street, I don't know who was in charge of the group.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it at that stage that the group split and went into different directions?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: I am sorry to come in Mr Strydom. I have heard two different things from you now. Earlier you said the other group proceeded along Msheshwe Street, now you are saying they proceeded along Leqwa Street, can we just clarify this, I am a bit confused.

MR TSHABANGU: We left the tree, divided into two groups. Two groups proceeded towards the same direction, along we joined Msheshwe Street as two groups proceeding to the same direction.

Where Leqwa crosses on our left, crosses Msheshwe Street, after the shooting that occurred against us and the SDU's, the group which was under the command of Qonqo went to Leqwa Street and the other group continued or proceeded along Msheshwe Street, that is what I am trying to explain.

MR LAX: That is what I thought you said in the beginning, that is why I wanted to correct it because the way it was translated now was that both groups went up and split up Leqwa Street. So I just wanted to clarify that, thank you.

MR STRYDOM: As your group moved along in the streets of Boipatong, were they always in a tight unit or did they split up in smaller groups as they went along?

MR TSHABANGU: We were divided, we were divided into small groups.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give the names of people that walked close to you that you can remember?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't remember all of them, I will try to mention those who I can still remember. Damara was with us, Themba, Stals who is also an applicant in this hearing, Dondo is also an applicant ...

MR LAX: You are going a bit too fast. Just slow down a little bit. I got as far as Stals, you said Stals was an applicant, what is his surname?

MR TSHABANGU: His name is Timothy Stals Mazibuko. Dondo Jack Mbele who is an applicant. Tebogo Ruben is also an applicant, and others whom I can't remember now.

MR LAX: You mentioned a Themba, who is Themba?

MR TSHABANGU: That is Themba Maboti.

MR LAX: And you mentioned a Dondo?

MR TSHABANGU: He is Dondo Jack Mbele.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go into any houses in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I entered into one of the houses. I don't remember which house.

I think it is those houses along Mzimvubu going up, I destroyed things in the houses.

MR STRYDOM: I want you to look at Exhibit J, that is the plan of Boipatong. First just have a look at it, do you understand the manner in which it is set out?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I do understand.

MR STRYDOM: The group that you were in, can you explain the route you followed through Boipatong, up to the stage you left Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: We entered through Msheshwe Street, we turned on Leqwa and continued, we went to Hlewi and Amadon. That is the route we followed from the time we entered and the time we went out.

MR STRYDOM: Did you personally attack any person in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes. Yes, there was one whom I came across who was running, I can't remember the name of the street where I cam across this. I hit him very hard with a stick. That is the person I attacked.

Further I also entered into a house and destroyed things. I destroyed things like TV and other things. I can't remember all, I can't remember whether I destroyed a glass on top of something or not.

All that I know is that I destroyed a lot of things in that house, I also destroyed things inside and outside. I could have destroyed anything, a window, a car, anything which I could destroy.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you destroy property in those houses or that house, and outside the houses?

MR TSHABANGU: It was my contribution in the fight in which we were in. These are the things which I learnt from the Boipatong community, that things are to be destroyed.

MR STRYDOM: Did you personally witness any killing of any person?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know how I should state this, with reference to the killing of people.

What I am going to say is the person that shot, usually you will fall or try to limp, running away. I won't be able to say whether he is dead or not, because these things were happening as we were running and people were shot. I saw other people shooting some of the people. These are things that happened, however, I won't be able to say in this particular place, I saw someone dying.

However, I did see weapons which were dangerous used on other people, but I can't confirm that those people died or not.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from Damara who had a weapon, did you see, can you mention names of other people you saw with weapons in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: People were armed with various arms. Themba Mabotha had a 9 mm, if I remember well, he shot when we were passing the shops.

Ruben also shot several times. Dondo also fired several times and all the people I am mentioning, but I can't remember exactly as to who did what. I cannot deny if someone was to come and say someone did this and that, since I had not seen that.

MR STRYDOM: Did your group go to Slovo Park or not?

MR TSHABANGU: We didn't reach Slovo Park.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry to interrupt you Mr Strydom, Mr Tshabangu, on this map which is Exhibit G, I think it is. Using this pink highlight, would you indicate on this map the route that you followed when you, the point at which you entered and the point at which you went out? Can you do that?

MR TSHABANGU: Sir, I would like to find out whether you are referring to my group, yes, sir I can state the point at which we entered. I have a problem with the exit, I can't remember whether it is Mafikeng or Matolo of Hlewi, therefore I said in one of those streets.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible to indicate with the highlighter as far as you can remember, but if you don't remember, don't make any mark, do you understand that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes. I have a problem in remembering, because there are three streets that were used to get out. I will not remember which one I used to get out. I do not know what to do.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can't recall, it doesn't matter. All I wanted to do was just to indicate as far as you can remember. If you don't, don't do anything.

MR LAX: So Mr Tshabangu, just having looked at the red mark you have made on the map, it stops at the interception of Hlewi and Leqwa Streets?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: And that is because you are not sure what happened from that point onwards?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: After you left Boipatong, did you follow the same route that you followed when you went to Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I am not sure whether we went back via the back of the nursery. I should think that we might use the street which goes to ...

INTERPRETER: There is a confusion here. Maybe he should repeat because we are not understanding exactly what he is saying.

MR STRYDOM: Sorry the Interpreter can't hear you and they are not sure what you are saying, would you mind just repeating what you said.

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember which way we used to go back, whether we went at the back of the nursery, I don't remember.

But I know that we didn't use the street which is adjacent to the firms. We only used the street, this particular street when we were about to enter the bridge next to KwaMadala hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Did you use the foot bridge close to Frikkie Meyer Boulevard to cross Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: What happened when you got back into the hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: We entered the hostel, I don't remember exactly who said to us that we should enter our respective rooms as quickly as possible, that is what happened.

MR STRYDOM: Are you aware of any of the looted goods that came back from Boipatong, that was burnt afterwards?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember who gave the instruction to burn the goods?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you partake in the burning of the goods?

MR TSHABANGU: I went to watch the burning of the goods. I didn't burn them or help to burn them by turning them around or take anything to the fire because I personally didn't take anything from Boipatong, but I did see the goods being burnt.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember when these goods were burnt?

MR TSHABANGU: I think it was during the day, the following day, following the day of the attack, I would say in other words the 18th, during the day.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person with the name of Katsizi?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you know him from?

MR TSHABANGU: From KwaMadala hostel.

MR STRYDOM: His real name is Victor Geswa, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Were you involved in any so called hitsquad activities either alone or with him?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of George Khumalo?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Were you involved with him in any unlawful activities?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR STRYDOM: Thinking back today about the attack, how do you feel about it?

MR TSHABANGU: I feel very bad about it. As I am speaking now, someone might think that I am proud of what had happened at Boipatong, but my soul is hurt. I have remembered things that happened to me which happened to other people because of me.

And other people who suffered because of the kind of life that they chose to live. About the cry of the people of Boipatong community during that night, I can't even explain, it is hurting. I don't have the words to explain how I feel, but it is painful.

MR STRYDOM: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM.

CHAIRPERSON: At this stage we will take a 15 minute adjournment.

ON RESUMPTION:

MPLUPEKI SIMON TSHABANGU: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Tshabangu, when you arrived at the corner of Msheshwe and Leqwa Streets, you say that there was some barricades which you removed, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: No. We didn't remove these items right at the corner, but we removed them along Msheshwe next to Tserela Combined High School.

MR BERGER: Were there any obstacles in the road at the corner of Msheshwe and Leqwa Streets?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: Were there any obstacles in the road at the entrance to the township in Msheshwe Street?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't be able to answer with reference to the entrance. I will say at the beginning of Msheshwe Street, not at the first or second house, but right at the beginning of Msheshwe.

MR BERGER: What was right at the beginning of Msheshwe Street?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: You see, what I want to put to you is that it was quite possible for vehicles to drive, to enter Boipatong and to drive through the streets of Boipatong that night, would you agree?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, in some roads it was possible. I can't deny that it will be possible for a car to travel along those streets, however, the fact is I and the people who were with me in the other group, did not at any stage travel in a car from the time we left KwaMadala until the time we went back to KwaMadala hostel.

MR BERGER: I am not asking you about that Mr Tshabangu. I am asking you whether it was possible for vehicles to enter Boipatong and to drive through the streets of Boipatong at the time when you were there.

MR TSHABANGU: I stated that it was possible that a car could be travelling in some of the streets.

MR BERGER: Which streets are you referring to?

MR TSHABANGU: I can't say precisely which streets, I am trying to recall. The plan, the conditions in the streets during the time as there were some who were barricaded and some who were not, but I can't specifically say in this particular street a car could travel or not.

MR BERGER: What I just want to put to you is that shortly before the attack, the Police fired shots in Boipatong to clear the streets of young men.

And shortly after the attack, ambulances were able to enter Boipatong, to drive through the streets of Boipatong and to remove the dead and injured. So, would you agree with me if I say that it was possible for that to have been done?

MR TSHABANGU: I am forced to agree with you because I can't remember. I heard during this year 1998 from my friends who stays at Boipatong when we attended a Truth Commission hearing at Boipatong, that before the incident, Police came and shot at people who were guarding the place.

MR BERGER: And by so doing, cleared the streets of those people, is that what you heard?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't confirm that they were clearing the streets or doing their Police work. I won't be able to answer on behalf of the Police.

MR BERGER: Is it correct Mr Tshabangu, that at the last hearing of these amnesty applications, you told members of the community who were gathered there that Mr Victor Mthembu was telling lies and that you would come and tell the truth?

MR TSHABANGU: I never said Victor lied. Victor says what he says himself as Victor Mthembu. I as Mplupeki Tshabangu, I am here to cleanse my heart. The words that I uttered from the time I started giving evidence, I tried to mention things which I know and things which I had seen. What Victor said is what he said. I can't answer on his behalf.

MR BERGER: Is it your evidence that you were chased out of Boipatong because of your connections with the Police?

MR TSHABANGU: It is one of the reasons. There are many reasons. In my evidence I have stated that at the time I was a COSAS member, thereafter I became an instrument of oppression under the government which oppressed the people, that matter put me in a situation where I became an enemy against the community who thought I might have sold them out.

As I have explained about the teacher whom I shot, Zwane gentleman who died, might be some of the reasons which created the animosity between me and the community and also my friendship with the IFP. I will say these are some of the reasons.

MR BERGER: Isn't the reason that you fled Boipatong, the death of Lita Zwane?

MR TSHABANGU: It is one of the reasons, but it is not the only reason.

MR BERGER: Isn't it also correct that you fought with Lita Zwane over a girlfriend?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Do you know a woman by the name of Maga Pagati? Pagati is her mother's name?

MR TSHABANGU: I know Maga, but I don't know Maga Pagati. The Maki that I know, Maki was never in love with Lita. Lita provoked me, he stabbed me while in the company of other men. He was very active in the activities of the ANC.

MR BERGER: Was Maga your girlfriend?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And is it not correct that she was also having a relationship with Lita Zwane?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: And isn't it correct that you tied Lita Zwane to a tree and removed his genitals?

MR TSHABANGU: That is very wrong. I think you have been given wrong information. I would like you to go and find out the dockets concerning the death of Lita Zwane, that will prove that with respect, what you are saying is not true, or it is a lie. That I tied him or cut his genitals, also with reference to the girlfriend relationship.

MR BERGER: Is it not correct that you dragged Lita Zwane with a car between Boipatong and Sharpville?

MR TSHABANGU: That is not correct. The report of the District Surgeon over the death of Lita Zwane, it was said the cause of death was brain haemorrhage because of the beatings he suffered from us.

At no stage was he dragged by a car.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that as a result of the death of Lita Zwane and the manner in which he had been killed, that you became persona non grata in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: That is not correct. I would like to tell you or before I tell you what I want to tell you, I understand that when a person die, he cannot be taken exactly or treated the same as the death of a dog. The death of Lita was not a usual death. I would say to correct, his death was not different to the other deaths of people in the township.

My intention was not to kill him, however, he died out of this.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that you were convicted of kidnapping?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: How did you kidnap Lita Zwane, what did you do?

MR TSHABANGU: I met him in town. I said I am going to open a case against him and that he should accompany me to the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, what is the relevance of this to the inquiry that is before us?

MR BERGER: The relevance Chairperson, is that this was a personal attack, not a political attack. It was personal, not political, the death of Lita Zwane.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, can I just mention that the applicant has been charged for his death, he has been convicted. That issue has been dealt with in a court of law already. The applicant is not applying for amnesty for the death of that specific person, Lita Zwane, so I submit that it is irrelevant at this stage.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, in the applicant's papers and particularly in his affidavit starting at page 175, he deals with the death of Lita Zwane.

He says at page 177 "die voorval wat gelei het tot my skorsing uit die Suid-Afrikaanse Polisie het plaasgevind voordat ek na KwaMadala getrek het. Ek het die persoon wat my by die sjibeen met die mes gesteek het, ontvoer en aangerand. Hy is later dood. Ek was strafregtelik daarvoor aangekla en gestraf tot agt jaar gevangenisstraf. Ek het die vonnis vanaf November 1992 uitgedien. Volgens my was die "something" rede vir hierdie rede vir hierdie optrede ook polities aangesien die aanval op my polities geïnspireer was."

I would have thought that that ...

CHAIRPERSON: He is not applying for amnesty in respect of the death of that individual, is that right Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: That is so.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, he confirmed his affidavit under oath. If I am not supposed to cross-examine him on certain aspects of his affidavit, then I will leave it out, but he draws the link between that political killing, he says that was also a political, meaning what he did in Boipatong was political.

I am attempting to show that the first one was not political. I can't take it any further than that.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I would submit that detail as to how Lita Zwane was killed, has got nothing to do with the issue. If the question is what the reason for his death was, that would be a question that would be allowed.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I need a direction on what I should do.

CHAIRPERSON: The submission is that the question of how he died, is irrelevant to the question of why he was killed. That is what the submission is. What do you say to that?

MR BERGER: I submit that the savagery of the attack, given the personal circumstances between him and Lita Zwane, tends to show that this was a personal feud which was taken to extremes.

If the witness is not telling the truth about it, I would like to probe, but Chairperson, I can't take it any further than that.

CHAIRPERSON: Put the question. Answer the question Mr Tshabangu.

MR TSHABANGU: Please repeat your question.

MR BERGER: You were telling us Mr Tshabangu, you were telling us how you abducted this man, you said you approached him, you told him you wanted to take him to the police station. That is when we were interrupted, so carry on from there.

MR TSHABANGU: I took him and I did that because the Investigating Officer on that case, was not willing or afraid to arrest him.

What I said, my first word when I came to him, I asked him why did you stab me. He didn't answer or said anything which made sense. He refused to go with me. I took him to the police station. He said I can do what I can do. Rembering that he did stab me, and he just started wit me, I didn't do anything, things got out of hand. I didn't take him to the police station then.

I was convinced that I wanted to avenge by assaulting him. My main aim was to inflict pain on him but the assault resulted in his death. That is what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Weren't you a member of the Police Force then?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the Investigating Officer?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember his name, but I know him facially. He is stationed at Vanderbijl police station.

MR BERGER: Why do you say that when Lita Zwane stabbed you, that it was political?

MR TSHABANGU: It is because they approached me in the comrade fashion. As a person who knows the comrades, I stayed with them in the township, during those days they came and stood outside, started chanting and they called me to come out and that is the comrade fashion.

They said the aim was to remove all the Police from the community or the township and they were asking why was I still in the community while others have run away.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that at your hearing in connection with the death of Lita Zwane, you came across Mr Miga who is the father of Amos Miga who was killed by George Khumalo, you met Mr Miga at your hearing, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know which Miga you are referring to whose son was killed by George Khumalo. If he is present here, I would like to request that he will stand up. If you are referring to Zozo, I will say yes. If you are referring to a man known as Zozo, I would agree with you.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, can I ask Mr Miga to stand? Mr Tshabangu, that is Mr Miga.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: You encountered him at your hearing, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And at that hearing, you and Victor Geswa threatened to assault Mr Miga, isn't that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: That is not correct.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, with respect, I don't know how this relates to the question of amnesty or the Boipatong incident, unless my learned friend can indicate, but I would ask the Committee to exercise its discretion and place reasonable limits on these collateral issues that are expending a lot of time away from the main, central issues Mr Chairman. Time is of the essence and although one doesn't want to stop my learned friend from canvassing issues, it certainly seems to be collateral matter which doesn't take the matter at hand, very much further.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I have two points in answer. The first is that it is our contention that Mr Nana Tshabangu and others including in particular Mr Victor Geswa, were part of a gang who were terrorising the community of Boipatong.

It was for those reasons and in particular the death of Lita Zwane that this applicant was forced out of Boipatong. It goes to the question of whether this was political or whether this was criminal.

The second point Chairperson, is that these are issues which are very close to the heart of many, many members of the community. In my consultations with the community, dealing with Nana Tshabangu, these are issues which have repeatedly come up. I understand that one of the purposes of these amnesty hearings, is reconciliation.

If I can't canvass these issues with this applicant, the members of the community are going to feel that the issues which are important to them, are being bottled up. That is the reason that I am pursuing this line.

MR LAX: Mr Berger, while you are quite correct that the purpose of the Act is, one of the purposes of the Act is to try and foster reconciliation. The purpose of these hearings is very specific in the Act and there has already been a human rights violations committee hearing which intended to canvass a whole broad variety of issues that you are now introducing and it was held in this part of the world and many of your clients would have been there and had that opportunity to ventilate those issues.

While we don't want to pour cold water on their feelings and we perfectly understand and respect their need for further elucidation, we also have a job to do with severe time constraints and we need to be a bit more focused and so, if you could try and keep the issues as narrow as possible, rather than opening up as many cans of worms as possible, we would facilitate our process a lot better.

CHAIRPERSON: If you want to put to this witness that he was part of a gang of criminals who were terrorising the township, put that to him. Let's not go around in circles, just put that to him and let's hear what his answer is.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, with respect the applicant will deny it, and ...

CHAIRPERSON: But please put those facts to him and let's see what he has to say. Just put them to him.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, is it correct that you were part of a gang of criminals who were terrorising the community of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: That is not correct. I knew that most people think like that. From what you get from the Boipatong community, me and my friend, we were not terrorising the community or going around terrorising the community.

I didn't understand or had the feeling that I go around terrorising, I am surprised when you mentioned Miga. I never even greeted a single person from Boipatong or speak to someone from Boipatong on the day of the trial of Lita because I knew we were enemies.

I was never a gang member and I will never be in my life.

MR BERGER: Victor Geswa was your good friend, am I right?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Was he your friend?

MR TSHABANGU: He was my comrade. I understood him to be my comrade.

MR BERGER: George Khumalo was also your comrade, was he not?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you deny that after the release of George Khumalo, that you, George Khumalo and Victor Geswa terrorised the area of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I deny all that because I believe that Victor Geswa ended up dying, people would know exactly who he was.

I would tell you something that you don't know, even today people don't know who is Nana, what kind of person is Nana. If you go and ask a particular person who is Nana, they will give you different descriptions.

I and George Khumalo never terrorised the community of Boipatong and if the community themselves understood this to mean that when we go back to the township where we were born and bred, where we have friends, if they consider as bad when we come in a car and we find them sitting in a group, they start driving away and they think it is the way we are terrorising them, that is wrong.

I used to travel in a car, and I will go to the township during the day unarmed, but I knew that my life was in danger. I used to take the grocery to where one of my children stays. I will find people standing in a group in a corner. When I appear in a car, they will run away and it will be painful to me like I have turned into an animal that people were running away from me, because I didn't understand why they were running away from me.

I don't know whether you consider that as a way of terrorising the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me understand this. You are saying that very few people know who Nana is.

MR TSHABANGU: What I am trying to explain, I am trying to explain that people talk about this person as if they know this person, meanwhile they don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to the fact that people don't know what type of a person Nana is?

MR TSHABANGU: It is so sir. When they see me in the company of Katis, I would say most people when Katis died, they never knew what kind of person he was. I was saying this with reference to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why when people see you stop the car, they would run away?

MR TSHABANGU: I think it is because they were afraid of the things which they had done against me about the house that they burnt and the other things that I have mentioned before this Committee.

Maybe they were thinking that I knew that it is them and I will fight them or that I will fight because they did that and that to so and so. But it was not the case.

MR BERGER: Do you deny that George Khumalo killed Amos Miga?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't agree with this and I don't deny this. I don't know how he died, whether he was killed by George, when and why were the reasons of his death.

I don't know anything about the involvement of George Khumalo.

MR BERGER: Damara Qonqo was also your friend, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: That is wrong. He was one of the persons I was staying with in the hostel. Maybe you have to clarify or explain to me your own perception of what is a friend.

How shall a friend be? What kind of things do you do with your friend?

MR BERGER: Is it not also correct that Victor Geswa was known throughout the Vaal as the Vaal Monster?

MR TSHABANGU: He used to be referred to like that in Vaal.

MR BERGER: And why do you think you were associated on that wall that is depicted on the photograph, with the Vaal Monster as being wanted dead or alive, why the two of you?

MR TSHABANGU: I am not the only one whose name was written with his name on the wall. I can take you to (indistinct) in Vaal where his name is mentioned with other people names. I think people thought that he was a leader of something, something like a gang who always instruct people to go to this particular place to do this and that.

But that was not true.

MR BERGER: And your evidence was that this sign which said "Getisu and Nana wanted dead or alive", that appeared in Boipatong, Sharpville and Sebokeng?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct sir. It is as you say, at Sharpville, Boipatong, Sebokeng. People staying in these respective places, I would say it is only the people of Boipatong who can tell you why they associated me with this man. Maybe they know of anything that are common between me and him or any gang activities as they think. I will say that they are wrong.

MR BERGER: You will also see on that photograph, the slogan Viva PAC, do you see that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is it therefore correct that at the time of the attack, you were aware that there were PAC supporters in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I was aware. What was happening at the time is all the small political organisations like PAC and others, were under the command of the ANC and if you were not in line with the ANC policies, you were to be necklaced with a tyre.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, I am not going to argue with you on that point, but you know very well that the ANC and the PAC have for many years been separate political organisations, don't you?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I know that. I also know that at times the ANC doesn't want the existence of other political organisations.

MR BERGER: Not only ANC and PAC, but also IFP supporters were living in Boipatong at the time of the attack, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: It is also correct, is it not, that you were involved in a shooting incident at your parents' house, you shot at your parents' house?

MR TSHABANGU: As you can see me shaking my head, or smiling, it doesn't mean that I want to laugh, but I am trying to respond to you. With respect, what you are saying in this moment, it is not the first time for me to hear this. I know that some people have said that I did shoot at our house. How can I shoot with two rifles, a AK3 and a Macaroff, directing the shooting towards my home.

I will say they were lying, that is not true.

MR BERGER: And the house was not burnt down - after you left, the house was demolished so that you could not return to the township, isn't that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know. I last know that the house was burnt down.

MR BERGER: Do you recall a meeting three weeks before the attack on Boipatong, at the stadium where people were complaining about what was happening at KwaMadala and where people were asking to attack Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I remember the meetings where people requested or put this request, and I am not denying that. Whether it was about two or three weeks or one, I can't be able to say yes or no.

CHAIRPERSON: We were told that prior to the attack in Boipatong, just shortly before the attack, there were at least two meetings. The first meeting was a meeting where the residents of KwaMadala hostel complained to the leadership about the attacks. Do you recall that meeting?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember specifically the meeting where the people complained, I am not sure whether that was the first or the second meeting, but I remember people complaining in one of these meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: At the other meeting, we were told people were given instructions to be ready for an attack. Do you remember that meeting?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: That meeting was on the 10th of June 1992, a week before the attack.

MR TSHABANGU: Must I comment?

MR BERGER: The meeting that you are referring to, is that the meeting that was held on the 10th of June?

MR TSHABANGU: Sir, I won't be able to mention a specific date. My date reference is not that good because this happened about six years ago and I am trying by all means not to tell you lies. I can't remember.

MR BERGER: On the 22nd of January of this year, you said the following under oath: You said an instruction was given by leaders of the IFP living at the KwaMadala hostel on approximately the 10th and the 17th of June 1992, that Boipatong must be attacked.

You can have a look at page 167 for that.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I have said it.

MR BERGER: Now that I have refreshed your memory, what instruction was given on the 10th of June 1992?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, in all fairness to the witness, I just want to refer to the word "ongeveer", which means more or less the 10th. So it is not as it is, exactly on the 10th.

MR BERGER: I will put the question again, do you confirm that on approximately the 10th of June 1992, an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked?

MR TSHABANGU: May you please repeat the question sir.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, do you confirm what you stated under oath, that on approximately the 10th of June 1992 an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who gave that instruction?

MR TSHABANGU: I can't remember exactly who was speaking at the meeting, it is anyone between Mkhize and Qonqo.

MR BERGER: Why was the attack not carried out immediately and why did you wait for a week before carrying out the attack, approximately a week before carrying out the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know. It should be understood that I wasn't involved in the planning and I wasn't part of the leadership. There were things which I didn't know and I don't know why it took a week before it could happen.

MR BERGER: Am I correct then if I understand your evidence to be as follows: Some time before the 10th, you don't know precisely when, the residents of KwaMadala complained to the leaders of KwaMadala that they wished to attack the residents of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I personally am saying that residents of KwaMadala hostel complained about the killings directed to them and their relatives in one of those two meetings.

MR BERGER: You see, we have heard from Mr Khanyile that at this first meeting, when the residents wanted to attack, the leader said leave it with us, we will think about it.

Do you confirm that?

MR TSHABANGU: What was said by Khanyile, it is what he said. I won't like to follow what he said or agree, not specifically what Khanyile said, but I will say what I know because if I were to do it in that fashion, I will end up telling the Committee and the community of Boipatong a lie.

I will say what I remember, the way I remember it, therefore I can't confirm or deny what Khanyile said.

MR BERGER: What you can confirm is that thereafter the leaders came, round about the 10th of June and said we are now going to attack Boipatong, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: If you are referring to the 17th, yes.

MR BERGER: No Mr Tshabangu, you have already agreed that on the 10th an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked and you told the Committee you did not know why it took from the 10th to the 17th before the attack was launched. Do you stand by that?

MR TSHABANGU: I am standing in these words. I am saying I don't know the exact date, whether it was the 10th or any other date, that is my words.

Further, that in one of the two meetings this was mentioned, but things occurred on the 17th.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I see that it is five o'clock. I am not finished with this point. I don't know if you would want to adjourn?

Mr Tshabangu, in your application, you say that approximately a week apart, approximately a week before the attack, an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked. Do you now dispute that?

CHAIRPERSON: He is just referring specifically to the aspect of his affidavit where he says that.

MR BERGER: I am referring to paragraph 11(b) on page 167 Chairperson.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Berger, we have canvassed this thing backwards and forwards. You have his evidence already on record, if he is going to change it, well, so be it, but let's not waste time on it.

I agree with you that he very distinctly said he didn't understand why it took a week for them to carry out the operation, he wasn't involved in the planning. That was his evidence, let's move on.

MR BERGER: I will Mr Lax, thank you. Was there not another meeting on Sunday the 14th of June where the attack on Boipatong was discussed?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: This was a meeting addressed by Mr Themba Khosa?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know anything about that. Where Themba Khosa was addressing people about the attack planned at Boipatong, I don't know anything about that.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps this will be an appropriate point to take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.