TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we are about to call our last witness. I see we've got one cameraman, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: He's focusing on you, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: He's not, he's focusing on Mr Wasserman which is alright - Van der Westhuizen I'm sorry.

Mr Chairman, just before we call Mr van der Westhuizen to give evidence, there is a matter which we feel constrained to make a remark about. You will recall Mr Chairman that yesterday we were at great pains to argue before you in the public interest that you not make an order that the identity of informers be disclosed and Mr Chairman, of course, you did not make such an order, in fact your decision in that regard has been postponed pending the outcome of an interim agreement which was reached for practical purposes in order to attempt to solve the problem which would prevent you from having to make such an order.

This morning, Mr Chairman, we could not help noticing on television that the SABC sent into South Africa new supports which all but stated that the Committee had made such an order but which left no doubt in the minds of anyone listening and seeing that programme that there is now an order that the identity of informers be disclosed.

Mr Chairman, we attempted to make it quite clear yesterday that no police force in the world can work and do their work properly, solve crime, without the assistance of informers and how anxious informers are concerning their own safety. It seems to us, Mr Chairman, apart from the fact that what the SABC did this morning appears to be precisely what the Act has in mind in Section 39(a) in anticipating an order but also, Mr Chairman, it has really made the whole proceeding of yesterday ludicrous because what we try to prevent has now been expounded by the SABC over the country.

We believe, Mr Chairman, that in fairness to the public, the SABC ought to make quite sure that the public is informed that they have made a mistake and that no such order was issued by this Committee. We just wanted to place that on record, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I did not watch television this morning and I have not seen that report. The press that I have read seem to have reported the matter with some accuracy and the purpose, as I understand it of the agreement, it was an agreement yesterday, was to enable these people to be notified that they might be involved and if they desire to take any steps they could do so. It is only after that has been done that the question will arise for decision.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman. We call Mr van der Westhuizen.

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr van der Westhuizen, were you born on the 10th June 1961 in Pietermartizburg and did you complete your school career at Greytown in Natal?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you apply for amnesty in this current session with regard to the death of Mr Pumeso Nxiweni?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I refer you to volume 2, page 72 to 84. You are familiar with the content of the written application which you have completed?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And which you have also signed?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm the content thereof?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In your amnesty application in the case of Mr Nxiweni, you have referred to the amnesty applications of Mr Steyn, Botha, is that correct?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: You have listened to the evidence of Mr Steyn and Botha with regard to the political background as well as the political objective which was to be achieved with the elimination - I beg your pardon - Mr Steyn's general political background and in the case of Mr Botha, the political motivation for the elimination of Mr Nxiweni?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Are you in agreement with that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Please tell the Committee very briefly something about your family background, please Mr van der Westhuizen?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I was born into an Afrikaans family, conservative family. My father served in the police forces as well as one of my uncles. Most of my family's friends were policemen.

MR VISSER: Did your parents support any political party?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: They supported the National Party.

MR VISSER: And the policy of apartheid and so forth?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And while you were growing up, had there already been a build up of the political struggle?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And what was the viewpoint of your parents and your parents' friends with regard to the onslaught?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: They opposed it.

MR VISSER: Did you also regard it as the policy of the Government that the onslaught should be combated at all costs?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: You completed your schooling at Greytown?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And in 1979 you joined the South African Police?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, directly after my schooling.

MR VISSER: After your training was completed, you then joined the counter-insurgency unit?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: How did it happen that you arrived there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I joined voluntarily.

MR VISSER: And after you had completed that, did you complete any service as a member of the counter-insurgency unit?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Where?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: In Craddock and the Grahamstown area of the Eastern Cape.

MR VISSER: And during this time period we are discussing, after 1980 was there already in that area an increase of unrest and violence?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And did you acquaint yourself with that personally, Mr van der Westhuizen?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you later apply for a transfer to the reactionary forces?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And you then specialised in training?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And after that training or that training itself was aimed at combating and fighting, that which was regarded as the total onslaught of the ANC/SACP Alliance as well as other freedom movements against the Government of the country?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: The reactionary force was applied by the Security Branch as well as the murder and robbery division for investigations and actions?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And what would that have involved, for example?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: For example if the Security Branch wanted to search houses then the reactionary force was used to infiltrate the house. They were to undertake the first penetration of the house and secure the area so that the investigational search could be undertaken.

MR VISSER: How would be involved, how would you be involved in these searches, what would the dangers be?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Well there would be the danger of armed people within the house.

MR VISSER: Yes and this occurred between 1982 and 1985 and later you joined the Security Branch?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And as a member of the Security Branch you also underwent demolitions training?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In 1985 you then arrived here in Durban at the Security Branch, is that correct?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And you were then placed in the terrorism section under the command of the then Major Taylor?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct. Not directly, I first served in another division before I was transferred to Major Taylor's section.

MR VISSER: Very well, in this capacity were you involved in any operations where it was about, among others, the interrogation of alleged terrorists and so forth?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Mr van der Westhuizen, never in your career as a policeman have you killed anybody, is that correct?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: However, you were present at, among others, this incident involving Mr Nxiweni where someone was indeed killed?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: The scenes which you experienced and your perception of the political violence, did this lead you to the conclusion that in certain exceptional circumstances aggression had to be applied for example in the case of Mr Nxiweni?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And is that the reason why you reconciled yourself with that murder?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: If we could move to the actual incident, Mr van der Westhuizen, with regard to Pumeso Nxiweni, is it correct that on the afternoon of the fourth of November you received an order from Mr Botha along with Mr Du Preez to go to a certain place at Kings Park Stadium?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: On the way there did Mr Botha say anything to you in connection with why you were going there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: What did he tell you?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Botha put it to me that a person we were going to go and arrest was a very dangerous ANC terrorist and that we were going to capture him and that he was going to be eliminated.

MR VISSER: And that was on the way there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: In the light of the fact that in 1985 you came to Durban, did you have any personal share in the investigation of the Ramlakan matter?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR VISSER: To tell the truth, at that point in time on 4 November 1988 while you were on your way to King's Park Stadium, what was your rank at that stage?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I was a Sergeant.

MR VISSER: So you were the lowest in rank of those three persons who went to the stadium that day?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And were you also the lowest in rank of the persons who ultimately became involved in the incident?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: It is history now that Mr Pumeso was found there after he had been lured there by an informer and that he was then arrested by you in order to, put it that way, he was grabbed?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: You then went to the safe house in Verulam?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And we know that Mr Nxiweni spent the rest of the day and the evening and the following morning there being interrogated?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you yourself participate in his interrogation?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: With what purpose?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: With the purpose of obtaining further information with regard to other units and his units.

MR VISSER: Anything else?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: To make a final attempt to convince him to become an informer.

MR VISSER: Did you within your own conscience have any hope that you would be able to win him over as an informer?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR VISSER: And was this as the result of his attitude which he displayed there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: Did you yourself know about activities which Mr Nxiweni had been involved, did you know about this previously?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And that it was alleged and that you had information that he participated in actions which led to violence and death and mutilation?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: Did Mr Botha tell you why he believed that Mr Nxiweni should be eliminated?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: What did he tell you?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Botha told me that Nxiweni was a very dangerous operative, that he did not believe that he would be recruitable and that we could not replace him into society again seeing he was a dangerous person.

MR VISSER: In other words this was the only way to stop him?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: During the process of the interrogation, according to the evidence which we have already heard, we understand that Mr Nxiweni provided information to you with regard to an explosion that had taken place the previous evening at the Rossburgh Railway Station in Durban?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Were you present when he provided this information?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.

MR VISSER: What did he say with regard to his own share?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: He said that he and his members had planted the bomb.

MR VISSER: And did he also provide any information regarding what was to happen on that evening of the 4th November?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You may tell us?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: He told us that he had already on the previous evening planted on a bomb on the railway line near Montclair.

MR VISSER: What happened then as a result of this information?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: After that Du Preez and I left immediately for Montclair to see if we could trace the device.

MR VISSER: And both of you were demolitions experts?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Was the idea to render the bomb unharmful?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: What happened upon your arrival at the scene?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: When we arrived there we saw police vehicles and drew the inference that the bomb had already exploded. We were also informed as such by the policemen on the scene.

MR VISSER: Did you go back to the safe house after that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: I understand that on the following day Mr Nxiweni also provided information with regards to a DLB?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Were you there when Botha left for the place where the DLB was supposed to be?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR VISSER: Did you remain at the safe house?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Who remained there with you?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Taylor.

MR VISSER: And we know that it was Botha, Wasserman and Du Preez who then went to the Alan Taylor Residence?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: When did Taylor and Wasserman arrive on the scene, can you remember?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The second day, that would be the 5th, they arrived there late that afternoon.

MR VISSER: And after that it was when the people went to the Alan Taylor Residence?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Well truthfully, it was in the evening?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: With regard to you, you have already given evidence regarding that, however the evidence of Mr Botha and others was that he was not recruitable, it became clear at the end of the day, that he was not recruitable as an informer?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Now while the persons who were mentioned went to the Alan Taylor Residence, what was happening at the safe house? You and Taylor were there and Nxiweni, where was he?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I was sitting with Nxiweni.

MR VISSER: You were sitting with Nxiweni, so he wasn't with Botha?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR VISSER: Did you guard him?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And what did Taylor do?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Taylor was busy in the office, in the kitchen and he also informed me that he was going to start digging a grave.

MR VISSER: Did he tell you that privately or in the presence of Nxiweni?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No he informed me privately?

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, I didn't hear that. Could you just repeat, what did he tell you?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Taylor told me that he was going to start digging the grave.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: We know that Botha gave evidence that informed Taylor about Pumeso and about the fact that the elimination was going to take place so your commander said that he was going to start digging the grave?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And what did you do then?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I stayed with Nxiweni.

MR VISSER: Very well. Wasn't it a very strange situation?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It is strange.

MR VISSER: Did you ask any questions about that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Why not?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I was a junior officer, I was completely junior to Mr Taylor and Mr Taylor was not a type of person that one would ask questions of.

MR VISSER: So he went to dig the grave and you remained in the house?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: What happened after that, did Botha and Wasserman and Du Preez return?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: And what happened to you then?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Taylor excused me and Mr Botha, he said that we could go.

MR VISSER: He said you could go?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: And then you left?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes we left.

MR VISSER: And after the time did you not report this incident to any policeman, you kept silent about the incident, you covered it up?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: You knew later on that Mr Nxiweni had been killed and buried?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: During the interrogation Mr van der Westhuizen, did you assault Mr Nxiweni?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Was it in the same manner as which the other witnesses have testified?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you use any filtering apparatus with which to filter him?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR VISSER: Did you use any electro-shock mechanisms or any other such apparatus?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR VISSER: Was any other torture apparatus used or available at the safe house?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairman, Christo Nel. I've got no questions for the witness.

MR NOLTE: Thank you Mr Chairman, Nolte. No questions for the witness.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no questions for this witness.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr van der Westhuizen, during the interrogation of Mr Nxiweni, was he cuffed?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Was he cuffed to a chair or to a bed or to some other structure.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Well which one is correct?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: He was cuffed.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Yes but what to?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: To a bed, I recall that he was cuffed to a bed at a certain stage.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: During the assault on him or was he removed from there and taken to another place where he was assaulted?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No he was assaulted there where he was cuffed to the bed.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: The whole time?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, as far as my involvement stretches.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: How did you assault him?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I slapped him a few times.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Well what do you mean by that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I slapped him through the face.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And the degree of violence which you applied?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: He was not seriously assaulted.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did you hit him with the fist?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I personally did not hit him with the fist.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Who hit him with the fist?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot say who hit him with the fist, some of the other members.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: We know that Mr Botha assaulted him, did you see this?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I can't recall that I saw him assaulting Mr Nxiweni.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Du Preez assaulted him, is that correct?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You saw that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: How did Mr du Preez assault him?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: With clenched fist and with the open hand.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And Mr Wasserman also assaulted him?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You saw that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And yourself and did Mr Taylor assault him?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not that I know of.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Could we then assume that upon the day of his arrest and throughout the following day he was consistently interrogated and systematically assaulted by all the members involved, is that correct?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes he was interrogated and assaulted but not consistently.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And you say that as a result of these assaults on him throughout this long period of time he was not injured?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, not seriously injured.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: My final question. In the Ndwandwe case, Taylor said he dug the grave and it was put to all the witnesses that that is not correct, that he indeed did not do it and if he says that it is as the result of his condition, his mental condition at the end, that he may have been confused. Was Taylor the type of person that would have carried out such a task, digging the grave, or weren't there other men there who would have done it?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, he was the type of person who would do that.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I have no re-examination. My learned friend was really referring to page 62 at Volume 2, Mr Chairman - page 61. Page 61 in Volume 2. I see you're frowning. That was the evidence of Taylor, Mr Chairman. I believe that's what my learned friend was referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: That was the shooting of Ndwandwe?

MR VISSER: Ndwandwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Not of this person? No re-examination?

MR VISSER: No re-examination, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Mr van der Westhuizen, when you commenced your evidence regarding the incident itself, you said that you received an order from Botha to go with him and Du Preez to King's Park Stadium?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: You said that Botha told you that you were going to take a dangerous terrorist there who was to be eliminated?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did he mention his name then?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I can't recall clearly.

MR MALAN: But you can clearly recall that he said that this was a dangerous terrorist?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And that this terrorist was going to be eliminated?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: Did he say anything about recruiting him at that stage?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Chairperson.

MR MALAN: So you knew from the beginning that he was going to be eliminated?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Why did you try to recruit him if Botha had decided to eliminate him?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairperson, I was of the opinion that he could perhaps be recruited and in so doing we could prevent this deed.

MR MALAN: So you say that that was your opinion?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes. I thought that perhaps we could try to recruit this man and then we wouldn't have to kill him.

MR MALAN: But Mr van der Westhuizen, didn't you say that you were of such junior rank that you didn't even offer to assist Taylor with digging the grave? Well you didn't say that, but you said that he was the one that went to dig the grave. Let me ask you this, when he said that he was going to start digging the grave, didn't you tell him "Colonel I'll do it."

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: So you were of such junior rank that you didn't speak to anybody but you took it upon yourself to try to recruit this man as an informer while Botha had decided and he was the person who handled the informers, that this person was going to be killed?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Are you sure that you tried to recruit him?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Did anybody else try to recruit him?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not that I'm aware of. During a certain stage I was alone with Mr Nxiweni and I thought that there might perhaps be a chance.

MR MALAN: You say that you knew about Nxiweni and his activities?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And at which stage did you find out that Nxiweni was such a dangerous terrorist?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think that was after his arrest.

MR MALAN: Did you know him?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes I knew him.

MR MALAN: Personally?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: But you knew how he looked before you arrested him?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: And then with regard to the information which you obtained, you have said that Mr Nxiweni and his units were responsible for the Rossburgh attack and you say that you had obtained this information by the means of the question/answer method and that involved, if I understand correctly, the asking of questions and if the response was not satisfactory, that person would be slapped or punched until they gave the correct answer?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: Did you put it to him that him and his units had been responsible for the Rossburgh incident?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot remember exactly how it transpired.

MR MALAN: Well what I'm actually trying to get at is whether or not Nxiweni actually offered all this information or whether you accused him and assaulted him until he admitted to it or agreed with you, in other words to avoid further assaults or slaps or punches?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I'm not of the opinion that he provided the information to us as a result of his assaults.

MR MALAN: Do you think that he offered the information voluntarily?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, not all of it, some of it.

MR MALAN: But you can't remember which was which?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So can you remember what happened with the Rossburgh incidents, whether or not you accused him of it or whether he offered it of his own accord?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think we began to question him about it, specifically about the Rossburgh incident and he then put it to us that it was them.

MR MALAN: Did he say this immediately, don't say things that you don't remember.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't remember that he said it immediately or whether he said this after a couple of blows.

MR MALAN: If he had been held there for an extended time period and consistently been assaulted, can one draw the inference from that, that it would be more probable that he would admit to things after assaults, rather than offer them voluntarily?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR MALAN: Could you say that without any doubt?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Some of the answers he gave as a result of his assaults.

MR MALAN: The minority or the majority?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot say.

MR MALAN: You see, I find it extremely difficult to understand, I think in the minds of everybody here, that a dangerous trained terrorist who was in command, would all of a sudden offer information of his own accord without any pressure being exercised on him or do you think, isn't that you experience, you were quite involved with interrogations?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That was my experience.

MR MALAN: That they would not offer information voluntarily?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not always.

MR MALAN: And in the majority of cases?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: In the majority of cases they would not offer it voluntarily or would they offer it voluntarily, what are you trying to say?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: In the majority of cases, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: In the majority what?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: In the majority of cases they would not offer it voluntarily.

MR MALAN: I think that that's the probability which is to be expected. Can you remember anything about the case with Nxiweni?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Most of his information was not offered voluntarily.

MR MALAN: The Rossburgh information?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I can't say specifically.

MR MALAN: Another thing which is also very difficult for me to understand is why he told you that there would be an explosion that evening, which did indeed transpire, but that he told you about this beforehand? Why would he have done that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I can't say.

MR MALAN: Were you present when he provided that information?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I can't recall.

MR MALAN: Let me just ask you a question which I have in my mind. One cannot help but wonder whether that explosion which occurred on the evening of the 4th, was that not a false flag operation which you undertook there, you didn't cause that explosion to occur yourself?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, we didn't.

MR MALAN: Thank you Chairperson. Thank you sir.

MR VISSER: May the witness then be excused, Mr Chairman?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, this brings us to the end of the proceedings in the present session, Mr Chairman. I don't know whether there's anything you wish to discuss with regard to continuation of the other incidents?

MR NEL: Mr Chairman thank you, Christo Nel on behalf of the late Colonel Taylor's wife. I have difficulty or had difficulty in finding anything with reference to a deceased person in the Act, expect the mention made of a deceased person in Section 20 (vii) (c), but I, on behalf of Mr Taylor, do not intend calling any witnesses and I do intend dealing with whether he is entitled to receive amnesty, I intend dealing with that in written heads of argument and I will stand by that, that is also the application for Mr Taylor.

MR NOLTE: Mr Chairman, Nolte on record. There's no witnesses we wish to call.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Chairman, we do not intend calling witnesses but I've been requested by the Bhila family that if possible, since we are finished with the evidence, if arrangements could be made tomorrow to see whether the applicants can be in a position to try and trace the spot where Mr Bhila was eliminated. That is the request I was asked to make.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there was an indication last week that attempts would be made amongst the applicants, that was my understanding that they would come back to the families.

MR VISSER: No, I don't think that's correct Mr Chairman. What we said was we offer our assistance but we can't make arrangements, we don't know how to make arrangements. We left that for the TRC to make. If you have a few helicopters and so on ready we'll hop in tomorrow morning and go and have a look see.

ADV PRIOR: I'll make those arrangements then with the investigating unit of the Committee and the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Would ask, Mr Visser, is if you speak to your clients, but my recollection is they were all very vague about where they went. They went down the road and turned off a tar road and find which of them is best able to suggest the area to go to.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman, we've gone through that exercise, you will recall we only appeared for two people, Rosslee and Wasserman. Now Rosslee was a stranger in the area and really it's a waste of time, in my respectful submission, to try to depend on his recollection. But Wasserman, Mr Chairman, says that he is quite happy to go and look again, he's done so before with the investigation unit and they couldn't find anything, but he says he'll go again. He hasn't got much hope but he can tell you what area it is, there's no question about that.

CHAIRPERSON: He would probably be the best one because if he has been with the investigative unit he can tell them where, they will both know where not to go again, they will know what areas they have been to and haven't found anything.

MR VISSER: So in that sense time and effort could be spared, yes Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I don't want to get involved in a debate, but my information that Mr Wasserman has not been with the investigating unit in respect of the Bhila matter.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I stand corrected, yes. But certainly we've got no problem with that Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, from the evidence leaders side, I indicated earlier that there may be witnesses, that situation has been ironed out. I don't intend call anybody further in this matter, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Wasserman is here at the moment, you can make arrangements with him. I'm not involved in this, I won't be going there. Speaking for myself, it seems it might be more desirable for a small group to go, to try to find the place and then to notify Mr Ngubane once the place has been found so the relatives can go there rather than have a whole lot of people following one another and getting lost and what have you. So you can discuss it with one another and make a plan about it.

Mr Visser raised the question of when we should adjourn or what we should do. We are awaiting information, I'm not quite sure who from, I think it's your instructing attorney, as to what has happened, if anything. Once we have received that information, if he could notify us, we will notify all the other parties as to whether the matter will proceed to a further hearing or whether at that stage we can give a decision and then get written argument.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I may inform the Committee that I've received an indication, it's no more than that, that there might be something to report by tomorrow morning, from Mr Botha, but it's no more than just an indication that there's a possibility. I'm not certain with the issue of Mr Bhila being outstanding and the issue of the informers being outstanding, whether it might not be perhaps recommendable that we should perhaps just convene tomorrow morning early?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it might be a very good idea and perhaps the Bhila question could be done today?

MR VISSER: That's what we have in mind Mr Chairman, it's to do it this afternoon. We've go a lot of time, we've got the rest of the day. We go and we do it today and we'll report tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm getting confirmation from the person who is actually going to do it, Mr Visser, he appears to agree, he's nodding his head. We'll adjourn then till tomorrow morning and hope that by that time we have more concrete information both on the Bhila matter and on the information from Mr Botha as to what is happening in that sphere.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman, that seems to be imminently the practical way.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. Before we do that though, there is something I wish to say now that we have finished the hearing and which I will probably forget to say tomorrow, that I am obliged to those who have prepared the bundles, they have put as much information before us as possible and I would also like my thanks to be communicated to the gentlemen who performed the post-mortems and put up the post-mortem reports. They are certainly more detailed than those I have had to deal with in most criminal cases and they have taken a lot of trouble over it and I think they should be thanked for what they have done.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, just before you arise, perhaps just for the record, my learned friend Mr Prior discussed the contents of the post-mortem reports and the contents of some of the bundles about which you've heard no evidence with me and he has enquired from us whether we dispute any of the facts and the answer to that Mr Chairman, and it can be recorded as such, of course we don't dispute any of that.

CHAIRPERSON: 9 o'clock tomorrow morning then.