CHAIRPERSON: For the record, it's Monday the 30th of November 1998. It is a continuation of the Self Defence Unit applications from Thokoza. The panel is constituted as previously indicated on the record. The appearances seems to the same as last week. The Leader of Evidence is Advocate Steenkamp, and for the applicants this morning is Mr Mopedi.

Mr Mopedi, are we dealing with the matter of Mr Mahlangu?

MR MOPEDI: That's correct, Mr Chairman, he is Thulani Mahlangu.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, may I be so rude as to interrupt here, just one or two household matters. The first applicant's application appears on page 251.

Just for the record, Mr Chairman, with your permission we will probably be starting today, just to indicate how the roll will develop. We will probably be starting with Lusaka-B today and not being finished with Lusaka-A because a lot of these applicants are in custody. Arrangements have been made by myself and other Members to make sure that they will be here probably on Tuesday and Wednesday. As far as I know there is about six people which are in this position. That's just to indicate that.

I was also contacted this morning by Advocate Swanepoel from the Pretoria Bar, who indicated that he is under the instruction of Mr Koos van der Merwe of the Inkatha Freedom Party, to appear on behalf of a Mr Msizi and also that he has instructions to appear on behalf of certain victims. He also indicated that he will attend this hearing from 9 o'clock onwards. I'm not sure where he is but just for the sake of the record. Apparently there is somebody on record now. Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Advocate Steenkamp.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Mahlangu, you are the applicant ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mopedi, just give us a minute, we just want to swear him in.

Mr Mahlangu, are your full names Thulani Mahlangu?

THULANI MAHLANGU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down. Mr Mopedi, you can carry on?

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Mahlangu, you are the applicant in this matter and you are applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR MAHLANGU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: You were also a member of a Self Defence Unit for Lusaka-A, Thokoza, is that correct?

MR MAHLANGU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: When did you become a member of the Self Defence Unit for Lusaka-A?

MR MAHLANGU: It was in 1993.

MR MOPEDI: Were you also involved in fighting with IFP members?

MR MAHLANGU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Are there specific incidents that you can remember now, in which you were involved in fighting members of the IFP?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: You may proceed.

MR MAHLANGU: The first one is the one that refers to the Mkwaie incident. I'm not quite sure of the date. There were five men that we went to see in that area. They were wearing red headbands, obviously members of Inkatha.

We chased them. Four of them fled and we managed to get hold of one. He fled to Mkwaie, that is where we apprehended him and he was killed.

MR MOPEDI: Why have you decided to kill these people?

MR MAHLANGU: These men as we indicated, were members of the IFP and I know that the community members knew that we were fighting the IFP at the time. That is the reason that we chased him.

MR MOPEDI: Do you know the names of those five people that you have referred to?

MR MAHLANGU: I do not quite know the names of the others. I knew only one whose name was Levesa.

MR MOPEDI: Was he known to you prior to the incident itself or did you start to know him after the incident?

MR MAHLANGU: I only knew him after the incident. We just heard that his name is Levesa.

MR MOPEDI: When you chased these people, could you say with certainty that they were members of the IFP?

MR MAHLANGU: That is correct, we knew.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just get clarity on this. Levesa is the man who you killed?

MR MAHLANGU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Ma'm.

Let us proceed to the next incident.

MR MAHLANGU: The second incident is the Mazibuko incident. I was sitting with some of the SDU members and there came a message for Bonga Nkosi, a message to the effect that they were being attacked in their section and he requested help. We then received a command from our commander, Mosa Msimango and we therefore went to the place to assist.

MR MOPEDI: What happened there?

MR MAHLANGU: After that we went to the place where we were summoned and on arrival there was fighting going on, a fighting which we joined.

MR MOPEDI: Could you state your role, what did you do there? Were you armed?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I was armed. I also fired shots towards the people we were fighting. That is what I did. There was fighting going on and I was part of it. I'm quite sure it is known that in a war situation there is fighting going on.

MR MOPEDI: These people that you were fighting, who were those people?

MR MAHLANGU: The people were the IFP members.

MR MOPEDI: You said you were armed and you fired some shots, is that correct?

MR MAHLANGU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: What type of firearm did you have in your possession at that time?

MR MAHLANGU: I was carrying an AK47.

MR MOPEDI: Did you kill anyone during the incident?

MR MAHLANGU: Honestly speaking, when a person is in a war situation it is very difficult to say whether you have killed a person or not because all shots were directed at the people that we were fighting.

MR MOPEDI: But you not excluding the possibility that you might have shot someone, injured someone or killed someone?

MR MAHLANGU: I would say that yes, some people may have got injured or died and some possibly may not have died or got injured. It was not possible, I didn't have time to go around and verify that people were injured or had died.

MR MOPEDI: So those people that you shot at, do you know them?

MR MAHLANGU: No.

MR MOPEDI: So what you know is that you only shot at members of IFP, is that it? Did I understand you correctly?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, that is what I am saying, because I was fighting IFP members, I fired shots towards their direction.

ADV GCABASHE: Again just a matter of clarity, how did you identify them as IFP members?

MR MAHLANGU: It was known that only IFP members lived in that area. It was also indicated in the map that was brought here last week, so that if a person was not a member of the IFP, one would not go there and therefore we had that knowledge. They came to attack us in our area.

MR MOPEDI: Okay, let's got back to Mkwaie section where you have told this hearing that a person was killed there was ...(indistinct) Levesa. I want to know specifically your role, the role that you in particular have played there.

MR MAHLANGU: Thank you. The role that I played insofar as Levesa's death is that I chased him. We used stones. He was running away as we were chasing him. There were five of them and we only managed to apprehend Levesa and we only managed to apprehend Levesa, the rest fled.

MR MOPEDI: Were you not armed with your firearm?

MR MAHLANGU: No, I was not armed.

MR MOPEDI: So you took part in the killing of Levesa, and what did you do? If you will be specific.

MR MAHLANGU: The role that I played is that I chased him and we finally apprehended him and he was killed. That's the role that I played. I also pelted him with stones after he was apprehended. That is the role that I played.

MR MOPEDI: Is there any further incident that you'd like to mention, apart from the two that you have told us about?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, there is the one incident at Mshayazafe.

MR MOPEDI: Proceed.

MR MAHLANGU: We were sitting, or should I say we were patrolling with other SDU members. We heard gunshots, shots that were being directed at us in our area. It should be known that when shots are fired towards our area, that was an indication that the war was on and therefore we received a command and we went to Mshayazafe to assist. Yes, when we arrived there the fighting was going on, it was a war.

As we were fighting we were disturbed by the soldiers and the stability unit and that is when we fled. That is what I can still remember.

MR MOPEDI: Who were you fighting at Mshayazafe?

MR MAHLANGU: We were fighting the IFP members. As it was indicated earlier on, there was a fighting going on, we were fighting the IFP members.

MR MOPEDI: If you may explain this Mshayazafe, was it a number of house or a hostel? Could you explain this Mshayazafe?

MR MAHLANGU: Mshayazafe is a hostel, not houses.

MR MOPEDI: So those people that you were fighting there, how do you know that they were members of the IFP?

MR MAHLANGU: As I have explained earlier on, members of the IFP resided in the hostel, that's where they were, that's where the fighting was going on. They were in the hostel. We came in to assist our fellow brothers and we started attacking them.

MR MOPEDI: Were you specifically, you in particular, armed?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I was armed.

MR MOPEDI: With what?

MR MAHLANGU: With an AK47.

MR MOPEDI: And did you use that AK47?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I used it. It was a fighting situation, my brother, it was a war. I fired shots.

MR MOPEDI: And the people that you were firing at, do you know them by name or could you tell us if you know them?

MR MAHLANGU: First of all I didn't know them. In a war situation, fighting your enemy, you just know these are IFP members, your enemies. You know where they stay etc., therefore one did not have time to ascertain as to who was shot etc. It was a war, we were just shooting.

MR MOPEDI: At that incident, did you suffer any casualties?

MR MAHLANGU: I don't have that knowledge but I'm quite sure that there must be people who died or got injured, but we did not verify that.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mopedi, if I can just ask.

Mr Mahlangu, when you came to Mshayazafe, did you get inside those hostels or were you shooting from the outside?

MR MAHLANGU: We shot from outside the hostel. We were firing shots towards the hostel.

ADV SANDI: Did you see any people, any IFP members as you were firing?

MR MAHLANGU: We were shooting at people who were within our view. They were shooting through the hostel windows.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mahlangu, do you still have further incidents that you would like to tell this hearing about?

MR MAHLANGU: One other incident that I would like to bring forward is the gangster incident. In our area we had gangsters. We used to patrol often and on coming across unregistered firearm we would confiscate it and hand it over to our commanders.

Sometimes we would patrol and come back with nothing. That was the situation but yes, we used to patrol and come across the gangsters, confiscate firearms from them.

There was also this so-called Khumalo gang that used to come to our area. These were the IFP members. They would come and start shooting people and so we decided to patrol that area and make sure that we do not lose lives.

MR MOPEDI: So the gangs that you are referring to, is it the Khumalo gang, is that the only gang that you know, that you remember?

MR MAHLANGU: We also had the Bad Boys. That was another gang that operated in the area. They were also equally used.

MR MOPEDI: So you were disarming them, taking weapons from them or what did you do about the weapons after you have taken the weapons from them?

MR MAHLANGU: We would confiscate the firearms and hand the firearm over to the commander.

MR MOPEDI: Do you know what happened eventually to those weapons that you confiscated?

MR MAHLANGU: No, I have no idea. I am quite sure that he may have handed these over to his superiors.

MR MOPEDI: Who was your commander?

MR MAHLANGU: It was Mosa Msimango.

MR MOPEDI: The weapons that you confiscated from the gangs, what kind of weapons were they?

MR MAHLANGU: These weapons ranged from knives to guns, illegal guns because it sometimes, or should I say we made sure that we do not confiscate firearms that were licensed.

MR MOPEDI: Is there any further incident that you would like to tell us about?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, there is another one. I was from my patrolling duties, I'm not quite sure of the date, and I walked past a certain street. I met my friend along the way and he asked me where I came from and he wanted to know how can I go to war without an firearm. He was carrying a baby. I had pistol in my possession which was on fire and as I was taking it out to show it to him, as I was handing it over to him and he gave back to me and in the process a shot went off and he died instantly.

MR MOPEDI: You say you had a pistol, whose pistol was that? Was it your personal pistol or could you tell us?

MR MAHLANGU: The pistol belonged to the community as we were doing our patrol duties. I was carrying it. I was from my patrolling assignments.

After the baby was shot, the community came together and discussed this mistake because the baby was shot accidentally and the community decided that because this was a mistake, necessary arrangement were taken or made by my family for the funeral. Therefore my family took responsibility in terms of funeral arrangements. Discussions were entered into between my family and that of the baby.

I had known this person for a very long time. I would not have shot the child, or the baby deliberately. I was forgiven for that incident. That is one other thing that has prompted me to seek amnesty insofar as the roles that I played.

MR MOPEDI: Are the family or the father of the deceased child aware that you would be bringing this application?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, he knows.

MR MOPEDI: What was their reaction?

MR MAHLANGU: I told him that I am seeking amnesty for this incident and he indicated that this is bygone, he doesn't have a problem, it is up to me how I proceed. This is bothering me quite a lot and that is why I have decided to bring it up here. He indicated that he doesn't have any problem, I can seek amnesty, it's up to me. Now that I have the opportunity I am here to seek amnesty.

MR MOPEDI: So are you praying or asking for amnesty in respect of all these acts that you have committed?

MR MAHLANGU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Is there anything that you would like to add?

MR MAHLANGU: No.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mopedi. Advocate Steenkamp, questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Advocate Steenkamp. Panel?

ADV SANDI: Mr Mhlangu, who is the father of this baby, what is his name?

MR MAHLANGU: It's Vusi Xneba.

ADV SANDI: Just to ensure that I follow the facts accurately, pertaining to this incident. You say you were handing over a pistol to your friend and a shot accidentally went off and a baby was - can you repeat this again? A baby was hit and subsequently died?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, this baby so happened to be shot and it died. I don't know whether I should go back and start afresh?

MR MAHLANGU: Where was this baby in relation to the position where yourself and your friend were at the time you were handing over the pistol to him?

MR MAHLANGU: He was carrying his baby. We were close to each other and talking, and he was carrying the baby, carrying him in his breast. He took the firearm, looked at hit and he gave it back to me but the barrel was pointing towards the baby. I was not aware that it was on fire and I just took the firearm and in that process a shot went off and the baby died.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Leah?

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.

I just want to ask about the gangs. You've talked about the Bag Boys gang and the Khumalo gang. We've heard evidence from the other SDU members about these gangs, evidence similar to what you have said to us today.

Can you just explain one thing to me though, I'm not sure if you are talking of a number of incidents in 1993/1994, where you would be patrolling and be meeting these gangs or if you are talking of one or two specific incidents. That's the only thing I need clarity on.

MR MAHLANGU: Insofar as the gangs are concerned, is that at the time of this violence the gangs would use the opportunity to benefit themselves, they would steal cars etc., and they would do all of these things under our noses.

For example, it so happened in one year on a New Year's Eve, people got shot as firecrackers were being fired and we suggested to the community that children should not be allowed to use firecrackers, and at the same time these people were using their firearms.

We saw them fleeing after shots were fired which we had mistaken for firecrackers. Therefore we had to patrol the area and make sure that they did not continue doing the same thing.

ADV GCABASHE: But just for a little more clarity. You are saying this happened a lot of times, essentially. Through 1993/1994 you'd have patrols, you'd meet gangs. So you could say 10 times, 20 times you did this, confiscated firearms from gangs, would that be correct?

MR MAHLANGU: What I am saying here is that after this incident where we woke up to dead people, we decided that we should maintain the patrol, and on our patrolling we would come across people having firearms in their possession and we would confiscate these and take the firearms to the community. Therefore the patrolling duties were something continuous. Sometimes we'd patrol for six months and come back home with nothing.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination, Mr Mopedi?

MR MOPEDI: No re-examination, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mahlangu, thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. The next applicant is Mzikayise Tshabalala, page 297, Mr Chairman, 297.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabalala, can you hear?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand and give us your full names.

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Tshabalala, you are also applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: And you are a former member of the SDUs of Lusaka-A, Thokoza, is that correct?

MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.

MR MOPEDI: If I may ask you, when did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR TSHABALALA: I joined the Self Defence Unit in 1990, but I was still very young. I participated by barricading the streets in 1993. That's when I started holding a firearm for the first time.

MR MOPEDI: Were you also involved in fighting members of the IFP?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Could you recall specific incidents in which you were involved?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, there is one incident that I was involved in, the Mazibuko incident that has brought me here. I was present, as it was explained earlier on, I was carrying my AK47 and people died in Mazibuko.

MR MOPEDI: So what you're saying is that you had an AK47 and you fired at the people and some of the people died as a result of the fact that you and others fired?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: The people that you were firing at, do you know them and could you tell us if you know their names?

MR TSHABALALA: No, I didn't know their names, I just knew that they were IFP members because some of them were wearing red headbands.

MR MOPEDI: So you in particular, did you kill or injure someone during the fight?

MR TSHABALALA: I would say yes, there are some people that I killed or injured, even though I would not be in a position to identify them but yes, I did fire shots.

MR MOPEDI: So pertaining to the fight itself, you confirm what Mr Mahlangu has told this forum?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I confirm that.

MR MOPEDI: Alright. And about the further incidents, are there any further incidents that you would like to tell us?

MR TSHABALALA: One other incident in which I was involved is the Mshayazafe incident. As explained by the previous applicant, I too was present during that incident. I was carrying my AK47 and I used it.

MR MOPEDI: So at the Mshayazafe incident, do you have any knowledge whether you killed or you injured someone or any person?

MR TSHABALALA: I don't have knowledge to that effect but I trust that there must be people that I killed or injured because I was also shooting.

MR MOPEDI: When you were shooting, when you were firing a shot or some shots, what was your intention?

MR TSHABALALA: It was to kill.

MR MOPEDI: As to how the incident itself arose at Mshayazafe, do you confirm what Mr Mahlangu has just testified, told us?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, as it was explained, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: And do you have any further incident that you would like to mention?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, there is the one incident that involves the gangs. I was one of the people who were patrolling. That is the Khumalo gang and the Thokoza Bad Boys.

MR MOPEDI: Were you also patrolling with Mr Mahlangu?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I was one of the people in his group.

MR MOPEDI: And so you confirm his testimony in respect of that aspect?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I confirm that.

MR MOPEDI: You say you had a firearm that you were using, what happened to that firearm, the AK47? What happened to it eventually?

MR TSHABALALA: When we came back from Mshayazafe I no longer had a chance because there were soldiers blocking our route and I had to drop it and flee.

MR MOPEDI: So you dropped it, that means it might have landed on someone else's hands?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that may be so.

MR MOPEDI: Is there anything that you would like to add to what you have told us already?

MR TSHABALALA: No. All the testimony I have rendered here covers it all.

MR MOPEDI: So are you praying for amnesty?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just check very quickly. The Penduka fighting, the Penduka incident, is it part of what you've told us already? Were you involved in that, Penduka?

MR TSHABALALA: That is the Mazibuko incident, yes I was involved there.

ADV GCABASHE: Is it the same thing, Mazibuko and Penduka? Is it the same thing?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it's one and the same thing. The only difference is that these areas are separated by the street. From Mazibuko further down is the IFP area and on the other side you have the ANC.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mopedi. Advocate Steenkamp, questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV GCABASHE: Can I also just check, and it's the same incident where Bonga asked for assistance?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that's the same incident.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Mopedi?

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Tshabalala, thank you very much, you are excused.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you. The next applicant is Fanyana Potong Nhlapho, Mr Chairman. Page 196.

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon?

MR MOPEDI: Page 196.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nhlapho, can you hear? Please stand and give us your full names.

FANYANA POTONG NHLAPHO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Nhlapho, were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Thokoza, Lusaka-A?

MR NHLAPHO: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: When did you become a member?

MR NHLAPHO: During 1993.

MR MOPEDI: You have also brought an application for amnesty, is that correct?

MR NHLAPHO: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Could you tell us what prompted you to bring this application?

MR NHLAPHO: I've brought this application because I was also involved as a member of the SDU in the area, Lusaka. Can I go on to explain?

MR MOPEDI: Proceed to tell us about specific incidents in which you were involved.

MR NHLAPHO: I was involved in the Mazibuko as well as the Mshayazafe incident. We were called by Bonga, that he is the commander, that the Mandela section - we were called by way of a two-way radio that Bonga was in a problem and we had to go and help him out. We proceeded to Bonga to help him.

MR MOPEDI: If I may ask you, were you together with Mr Tshabalala and Mr Thulani Mahlangu, those that have testified earlier before you.

MR NHLAPHO: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Alright, do you confirm what they told us?

MR NHLAPHO: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: I will put this question again, do you confirm their testimony about the incident, what happened at both incidents?

MR NHLAPHO: That is correct, I do.

MR MOPEDI: Okay, let's go back to the Mazibuko incident. What was your role there?

MR NHLAPHO: As I've already explained, we went to Mazibuko section and helped Bonga out. We shot the members of the IFP who wanted to chuck Bonga or chase Bonga out of the residential area or the houses. When we came back from the attack we were disturbed by the military group and the stability unit was there also. So we had to wait for quite some time so that the stability unit could move out of the area.

As we were waiting for the stability unit we heard some shots from the hospital. These shots were actually aimed at us. We went towards the Spruit area because there was no faction fight in the Spruit area.

MR MOPEDI: So let's go back to the Mazibuko incident now. What did you do, you in particular, you specifically, without taking the role played by others.

MR NHLAPHO: I shot at Mazibuko section. I also participated in the shooting. We all participated. We did basically the same thing.

MR MOPEDI: You said you fired a shot, what type of firearm did you have?

MR NHLAPHO: An AK47.

MR MOPEDI: And who did you shoot?

MR NHLAPHO: I do not know the people I shot at, I just knew that I was shooting at members of the IFP. Their specific names are not known to me.

MR MOPEDI: Can you say whether you killed or injured someone?

MR NHLAPHO: I wouldn't deny that I injured some people and killed others but as to the specifics, as to who was killed or injured, I do not know.

MR MOPEDI: So let's go back to the Mshayazafe incident. What did you specifically do there?

MR NHLAPHO: I also took part in the shooting. We were also called by way of a two-way radio. We had earlier on heard shots ringing from that area and it was apparent that there was a fight and we could not go out and attack or launch a counter-attack without the commander's instruction.

At a later stage we did get these instructions and we proceeded to Mshayazafe. We were operating in groups of five. I was based at the hostel, just behind the hostel, at Mdagane section. At Mdagane section I came across an IFP member. As the man approached I shot and I realised that I couldn't actually shoot this particular guy. I tried for the second time without any success and I called Vusi ...(end of tape) ... decided to run away and he went to the Mchachu section where he shot our members. I've forgotten the other members' names because we used to use Zulu names.

We also removed some of the bodies of the people that he had shot, some where injured. We decided to go back to our section. This man actually went back without having been shot. That was an IFP member. That's all.

MR MOPEDI: Do you know the name of that man that you were shooting at?

MR NHLAPHO: I did not know his name at that time but we used to call him the man with the coat because if you shot him the bullets would just stick on his coat, then he would just shake them off.

MR MOPEDI: So his real name, you didn't know his real name?

MR NHLAPHO: No, I didn't.

shot, how many of them?

MR NHLAPHO: Yes, that is correct, the Mchachu members, three of them were shot.

MR MOPEDI: So you've said members of Mchachu group were shot, how many of them?

MR NHLAPHO: Yes, that is correct, the Mchachu members, three of them were shot.

MR MOPEDI: Is there any further incident that you'd like to talk about?

MR NHLAPHO: No, besides the ones that I've already talked about.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just get a quick bit of clarity. You said the Mchachu members, three of them were shot, by this same chap?

MR NHLAPHO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And I didn't get the name of the section, is it Mchachu section that he came into after you tried to shoot him and is that the name of the section?

MR NHLAPHO: Mchachu is the commander from Slovo section and we were at Slovo section where the three were shot. But Mchachu is a person, he is a commander at the Slovo section.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Ma'm.

And the gangs were you not involved in disarming members of the gangs?

MR NHLAPHO: Yes, they were involved because they used to harass the members of the community.

MR MOPEDI: So were you there when they were disarmed or did it happen that on one occasion you were there when they were disarmed?

MR NHLAPHO: Yes, I was present at certain instances but these guns that were taken were legal guns or licensed firearms and they were able to get them back thereafter.

MR MOPEDI: And you were using a firearm, an AK47 during the attack?

MR NHLAPHO: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: What happened to the firearm, the AK47 that was allocated to you?

MR NHLAPHO: It was taken by the police, the Brixton Murder and Robbery Squad. They arrived at my hiding place. I do not know who had actually told on me. They confiscated everything as well as the gun.

MR MOPEDI: Where were you staying?

MR NHLAPHO: I was staying in Lusaka section.

MR MOPEDI: So you are now applying for amnesty?

MR NHLAPHO: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions, Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Members of Panel, questions?

ADV GCABASHE: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose you don't have anything further, Mr Mopedi, no re-examination?

MR MOPEDI: No re-examination, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nhlapo, thank you, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a short adjournment, we will adjourn for 15 minutes, thank you.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, are you appearing for the next applicant?

MR SIBEKO: That is correct, Mr Chairman. The next applicant is Mr Patrick Radebe. It's on page 128.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, can you hear?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Are your full names, Patrick Radebe?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Radebe, you are an applicant in this matter and applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-A?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander at the time?

MR RADEBE: It was Mosa Msimango.

MR SIBEKO: When was that when you joined the Self Defence Unit?

MR RADEBE: In 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in any incidents where shots were fired towards anybody during the time of your membership of the Self Defence Unit?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR SIBEKO: During the time when you were a Self Defence Unit member, were you at any stage in possession of an AK47 or any form of firearm which you used towards or against anybody?

MR RADEBE: Yes, it was an AK47.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Radebe, if you don't understand a question, please say so, so that we can correctly follow the procedure here.

MR RADEBE: Yes, I used to carry an AK47 around.

MR SIBEKO: Now name, or tell us about all the incidents in which you were involved whilst you were a member of the Self Defence Unit.

MR RADEBE: Mbuso Kambule killed Gregory Mkwanazi and it so happened that when I woke up in the morning, I learnt that Mbuso has killed Gregory Mkwanazi. In that very same morning Mbuso came to ask for forgiveness. At the same time we left with him and we were taking him to the office at Mkwaie.

We picked him up at 10 o'clock. We arrived at 10, driving in a kombi. We took him and we went to the circle with him. When we arrived there we put him at the circle and then started beating him up. Dan is the person who was in my company.

MR SIBEKO: Alright, before you proceed, Mr Radebe, who is Gregory Mkwanazi and how was he related to you or to any of the Self Defence Unit members, or was he a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR RADEBE: He was a member of the SDU.

MR SIBEKO: And then who is Mbuso, was he also a member of the Self Defence Unit or was he a member of the community, or was a member of the IFP?

MR RADEBE: He was a member of the SDU.

MR SIBEKO: Right. Your evidence is to the effect that Mbuso killed Gregory, how do you know that Sir?

MR RADEBE: I came to know this about this information because Dan was present when he was being beaten up the previous evening.

MR SIBEKO: Now it's for the second time in your testimony that you so and so hit so and so, can you specify exactly what you mean by that term "hit"? If you say he was shot, please say so straight or if you say he was assaulted, please say so straight. We've got to clarify that term "hit".

MR RADEBE: He was shot at his parents' home in the house.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, who is "he"? I'm lost. Who was shot?

MR RADEBE: It was Gregory Mkwanazi.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that Gregory Mkwanazi was shot at by Mbuso?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: That was in the evening, and the following morning when you went to Gregory Mkwanazi's place, you say Mbuso came in to ask for apologies, is that what you say?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And then you took Mbuso to your offices at Mkwaie, where you were to fetch him at about 10 o'clock the same morning, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And then you went there at 10 o'clock, that is you went to Mkwaie at your offices to fetch him at 10 o'clock and you took him to a circle, is that what you said?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now which circle are you referring to here, because if I'm not mistaken there are many circles at Thokoza.

MR RADEBE: It is Xhaba Street.

MR SIBEKO: What was the purpose of you taking Mbuso to that circle at Xhaba Street?

MR RADEBE: We had this policy that when a person has killed another one, he too should be killed.

MR SIBEKO: Were you part of the group that went to fetch Mbuso at Mkwaie to Xhaba Street, to that circle at Xhaba Street?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Who else was there, do you remember?

MR RADEBE: It was Langa, Langa Nxumalo, Bobby Tshabalala as well, Dan Radebe was also present.

ADV SANDI: So if I understand you correctly, Mr Radebe, are you saying this gentleman, Mbuso, was taken to the circle so that he could be killed?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Did he give an explanation as to how the killing of Mkwanazi had happened?

MR RADEBE: Yes, he did. They explained to me that when he opened the door he was shot with an AK47 and his brains split all over the place.

ADV SANDI: Was that the explanation from Mbuso?

MR RADEBE: No. I received this information from Gregory's mother.

ADV SANDI: Okay, carry on, maybe I'll understand it better as you go on.

Carry on, Mr Sibeko.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you.

Now you mentioned a few names, in other words there were only four of you who took Mbuso from the offices to the circle at Xhaba Street, is that what you are saying or you might have forgotten the names of other people who were also there?

MR RADEBE: That is correct. There was also this kombi person or the driver of the kombi.

MR SIBEKO: Do you by any chance remember the name of the person who was driving this kombi?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, Sticks is the name.

MR SIBEKO: Right, what happened at that circle at Xhaba Street?

MR RADEBE: As we got off with him we pushed him onto the circle and Dan came and shot him with an AK47. We left him there.

MR SIBEKO: Before Dan used his AK47 to shoot at Mbuso, what did you personally do other than dragging Mbuso out of the kombi? What did you do as an act of assault or anything that had to do with inflicting injuries to Mbuso?

MR RADEBE: After having dragged him out of the kombi I manhandled him actually.

MR SIBEKO: Would you mind explaining? We were not there and we would like to know as much as you can tell us as to what actually took place. What did you do?

MR RADEBE: Before Dan shot him, I assaulted him, I manhandled him, I also kicked him. That is all that I did.

MR SIBEKO: You said you were informed or you were told by the deceased's mother, that is the mother of Gregory Mkwanazi, that Gregory opened the door and he was shot at by Mbuso. What exactly did you get from Mbuso himself, did you asking him as to what exactly happened, whether it was accidental when he shot at him or was it something that he intended? Did you try to find anything to that effect from Mbuso?

MR RADEBE: I was feeling very downhearted and I didn't want to talk or discuss the incident.

MR SIBEKO: So will I be correct to say that you never asked anything from Mbuso to try to find out as to exactly what happened that led to the shooting?

MR RADEBE: No, I did not.

MR SIBEKO: Right. When you started you said Mbuso arrived at Gregory's place in the morning to apologise, did he get an opportunity of apologising or you just took him as you saw him when he came in, he never got that chance? What happened?

MR RADEBE: Yes, he did get an opportunity to ask for forgiveness and apologise.

MR SIBEKO: What did he say and to who? When he arrived at Gregory's place, what did he say?

MR RADEBE: He said that he had made a mistake.

MR SIBEKO: He said he made a mistake by doing what? What did he do that was a mistake?

MR RADEBE: By killing him.

MR SIBEKO: So will I be correct to say that he said it was a mistake that he shot at Gregory, is that what he said, is that what he meant?

MR RADEBE: Mbuso said that it was a mistake that he had shot and killed Gregory.

MR SIBEKO: Is that all you could hear before you actually removed him from the premises to this circle that you have just referred to?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Other than this incident, what other incidents were you involved in whilst you were still under the command of Mosa Msimango?

MR RADEBE: There is no other incident.

MR SIBEKO: Am I correct to state that you said that at some stage you did carry an AK47?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct but it was taken by Dan.

MR SIBEKO: I understand that at some stage - what I'm trying to find out here Sir, is that besides this incident - I mean we've got evidence to the effect that this violence took place over quite a long time, were there instances where you carried any weapon whatsoever which you used against anybody other than this person that, other than Mbuso? Any other incident where acts of violence were taking place?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I would go to the border at times and shoot, but I wasn't sure as to whether I killed or injured any people.

MR SIBEKO: By Mxeleni, are you referring to Buthelezi Street?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Besides the incident at Mxeleni or at Buthelezi Street, is there any other incident that you would want us to know about?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR SIBEKO: Now the weapon that you were using, is that the one that was taken over by Dan, to an extent that you never had any firearm whatsoever in your possession anymore?

MR RADEBE: The weapon that I'm referring to is the one that was used to kill Mbuso. I was using it before Dan took it and shot Mbuso.

MR SIBEKO: From that point onwards you never had any weapon whatsoever in your possession during the course of the violence?

MR RADEBE: He brought it back, that is Dan.

MR SIBEKO: What happened to that weapon, Sir?

MR RADEBE: ...(no English translation)

MR SIBEKO: Sir, I'm aware that you don't have any firearm with you right now, what I want to find out is where did that firearm or weapon go to? Was it handed over at the stadium, was it taken by the police, did you sell it to anybody, what did you do about that firearm?

MR RADEBE: It was taken by the military group, the soldiers.

MR SIBEKO: The incident of the killing of Mbuso and Gregory, when did that happen, which year? Do you remember? If you can't remember, say so Sir. Are you in a position to say when exactly it happened?

MR RADEBE: I don't remember.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Question, Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chair.

Mr Radebe, how many times did you go to Buthelezi Street and shoot?

MR RADEBE: I don't remember.

ADV SANDI: But you went there a number of times to shoot?

MR RADEBE: There were days of rest.

ADV SANDI: Were you shooting at IFP people?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Now let us go back to the incident about Mbuso. When Mbuso came to apologise and said that this was a mistake, is that all he said? Is there anything else he said other than that?

MR RADEBE: I do not remember.

ADV SANDI: Was he asked by anyone of you as to how exactly this mistake had come about?

MR RADEBE: I didn't even want to ask him.

ADV SANDI: Did you hear anyone from your group saying to Mbuso that he was lying, he was lying to say that this was a mistake?

MR RADEBE: No.

ADV SANDI: Do you know if there was any bad feeling between Mbuso and Gregory? Was there any ill-blood between the two?

MR RADEBE: No, they had an agreeable, formidable relationship, Gregory was conducting patrols with Mbuso at some stage.

ADV SANDI: What more did the mother of Mkwanazi say? You said she had said Mkwanazi was shot by Mbuso, was there anything else she said?

MR RADEBE: That's all I can say. What I've said is what she told me.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Radebe. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair. Gregory is Lucky, that's the same person?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And then, the group that went to Xhaba Street, there was Langa Lingwane, Dan Radebe and Bobby Bhani?

MR RADEBE: And Bobby.

ADV GCABASHE: ...(no English translation)

MR RADEBE: The surname is Tshabalala, Bobby Tshabalala.

ADV GCABASHE: And then finally, your AK47, you had it all along until Dan took it from you at the circle, is that right?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: In the car it was in your possession.

MR RADEBE: Yes, it was in my possession.

ADV GCABASHE: And Mosa Msimango did not know that you were taking Mbuso to the circle to kill him, he didn't know before it happened?

MR RADEBE: He knew it because we had this policy of an eye for an eye, so he was aware.

ADV GCABASHE: You say he was aware, where had he participated in the discussion on the issue? I'm just confining this strictly to Mosa, was he at Gregory's home when Mbuso came, was Mosa at the office when you took Gregory there? Because Mosa was not with you when you got into the kombi to go to the circle. Just explain that to me.

MR RADEBE: What led to him being taken to the office, Mosa was present.

ADV GCABASHE: Mosa remained behind in the office and the rest of you took Mbuso to the circle, that's how it happened?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, when you took Mbuso to the circle and when he was killed, were you acting on orders from anybody?

MR RADEBE: I explained earlier on that there was a hard and fast rule or police, that is you had taken somebody's life, your life should also be taken.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had gone to the office first and from the office you had taken Mbuso to the circle, now when you took him from the office to the circle were you told or ordered to do that, to take him to the circle?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And who gave the orders?

MR RADEBE: My commander.

CHAIRPERSON: After Dan had shot Mbuso, did he then hand back the AK47 to you?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, he did.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Dan the only person that shot Mbuso?

MR RADEBE: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he killed there on the scene?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then what happened to his body?

MR RADEBE: I have no knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he just shot and then you left again with the vehicle?

MR RADEBE: Yes, immediately after having taken him out of the car, the driver left with the car.

CHAIRPERSON: So after Mbuso was shot and the AK47 was handed back to you, what did you do, did you then just leave or what did you do?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, I went to put it where I was supposed to put it.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there a lot of people who were watching what was going on?

MR RADEBE: No, there was nobody or there weren't any people watching the incident or the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: When you referred earlier to 10 o'clock, was it 10 o'clock in the evening, at night?

MR RADEBE: In the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: This circle in Xhaba Street, was that where people were normally executed?

MR RADEBE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So why was Mbuso taken specifically to that circle?

MR RADEBE: It just happened that we took him there.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the circle in the residential area, near to the houses?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any specific reason why you took him to the residential area and shot him in public?

MR RADEBE: The people were fighting or there was a fight at the time and the residents were inside their houses, they were not outside in the street.

CHAIRPERSON: But I assume that you could have killed him in a more secluded area, under less public circumstances where people would not have witnessed what was going on, not so?

MR RADEBE: We were not going to be able to do that because the soldiers as well as the stability unit were in the area patrolling, they would probably have discovered us on our way out to that secluded area.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you for any reason want the public, the residents, to take notice that you were executing the policy of a killer will be killed?

MR RADEBE: No, that is not so.

CHAIRPERSON: Was anyone of you ever charged for this incident and arrested?

MR RADEBE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: One assumes that there must have been people who had seen what was going on?

MR RADEBE: It is not so.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I can't understand that, it was 10 o'clock in the morning, it was in the residential area near to the houses and you arrive with the kombi and you take this person out, you assault him and you manhandled him and then he is shot with an AK47 rifle, why would people not have noticed this incident happening?

MR RADEBE: There was a fight that had broken out and there was always gunfire all the time. People were scared to venture out into the streets lest they find themselves victims.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you've got absolutely no idea what happened to the body after the shooting?

MR RADEBE: No, I don't because after we had shot him we sought cover.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mbuso have family in the township, in Thokoza?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a young person or what?

MR RADEBE: I've no idea.

CHAIRPERSON: But how would you - you know him, how would you describe him, was he about like you, your age or young than you or older than you?

MR RADEBE: He was relatively tall. I've got no clarity whether he was older than me or younger.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he was married or unmarried?

MR RADEBE: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he have parents living in the township, the family that you referred to earlier?

MR RADEBE: Yes, he did have a family.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a mother and a father?

MR RADEBE: Could I ask a question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead.

MR RADEBE: Was that a question or were you commenting?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm trying to find out whether Mbuso had family, you said yes he did have family in Thokoza and then I was trying to find out whether he was married or not and you said you didn't know about that, then I asked you whether he had possibly a mother or a father that lived in Thokoza.

MR RADEBE: Yes, he did have parents.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether they are still alive, the parents?

MR RADEBE: I have no idea.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko, any re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, I've got a few aspects, some of which I've left out in evidence-in-chief.

Sir, when we consulted on Saturday, you told me that you were receiving threats from Ntlantla Kubeka, whom you said is a brother to the late Mbuso, is that correct, do you confirm that?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is true.

MR SIBEKO: Alright, let's start here. Why is Ntlantla threatening you or harassing you, do you know the reason why he is doing that? There should be a reason why he is doing that.

MR RADEBE: Mbuso was Ntlantla's brother and whenever he sees me he always torments me and harasses me. I'm not even able to socialise or go out. He has totally destroyed my life.

MR SIBEKO: Now we'll come to that Sir, what I want to find out is, did you at any stage fight over something else other than what you have told us about, his brother? If it has to do with his late brother, how did he come to know that you are the one or you were part of the people would executed his brother? Because as far as you are concerned, nobody saw you when you did that, how did he know that you were involved in the killing of his brother?

MR RADEBE: The information was passed onto him by the driver of the getaway car, because apparently at an earlier stage they had a problem with Dan but later on they were friends and he told him all the information.

MR SIBEKO: So you are saying the driver who took you to the spot where the execution took place, quarrelled with Dan who shot that Mbuso, as a result of which he went further and told Ntlantla that his, ja, he told Ntlantla that so and so were involved in the killing of your brother, is that what you are saying?

MR RADEBE: That is so.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Leah?

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair. Can you just explain one small aspect to me about this policy of a killer must be killed, just generally. Did you not wait for an explanation from the killer before you killed him?

MR RADEBE: No, we could not go to the border or the street that has been referred to before, so if one kills a person, as soldiers we should also kill that person who has killed one of our soldiers.

ADV GCABASHE: So it was just a blanket policy, everybody knew this is the way it works?

MR RADEBE: Yes, it was a well-known policy.

ADV GCABASHE: Then just one other aspect, while the Chair was asking you questions, Sticks the driver drove off and left you at the circle, is that what you were saying?

MR RADEBE: That is so.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Radebe, thank you very much, you may be excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Who is next?

MR SIBEKO: The next applicant is Mr Lucky Soko.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, Mr Lucky Soko's application does not appear in the bundles. I wish to ask for permission to hand in his application. His application number is 7142/97. I do apologise that the application is not in the bundle, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Soko, won't you please stand and give us your full names?

LUCKY SOKO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Soko, you're also applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR SOKO: That is so.

MR SIBEKO: Is it correct that this application is due to the fact that you were an SDU member and you participated in the activities of the Self Defence Unit?

MR SOKO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, SDU member, Lusaka-A?

MR SIBEKO: It's correct so, Ma'm.

When did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR SOKO: During 1992.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander?

MR SOKO: It was Sipho Mtiyane. Mtiyane is not the surname but he was called Sipho Mtiyane. I've forgotten his surname.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, is the surname not Ngubane? That name was mentioned, Sipho Ngubane who was said to have been a commander at that time.

MR SOKO: If the Sipho, probably he is Ngubane, I'm not sure.

MR SIBEKO: How long were you under the command of Sipho Ngubane?

MR SOKO: One year.

MR SIBEKO: So will I be correct to state that in 1993, a new commander came into the picture?

MR SOKO: That is true.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander in 1993?

MR SOKO: Mosa Msimango.

MR SIBEKO: Were you part of the group which fetched Mbuso at the office, took him to the circle at Xhaba Street and executed him?

MR SOKO: No, I was not present during that incident.

MR SIBEKO: Tell us about the incidents or incidences which you were involved in whilst you were a member of the Self Defence Unit.

MR SOKO: I was mainly doing the street patrol.

MR SIBEKO: You only patrolled the area, no attacks were made or else whilst you were patrolling no shots were fired, nobody was caught and killed whilst you were patrolling, nothing happened, you just patrolled. Is that what you are saying?

MR SOKO: That is correct, Sir.

ADV SANDI: What about the confiscation of arms from the gangs, did you not take part in that whilst you were patrolling?

MR SOKO: Yes, we did that mainly during the year 1993, whilst we were patrolling or during the patrols.

MR SIBEKO: Do you know what happened to the weapons that were confiscated in the patrol that you are referring to?

MR SOKO: The commander would take the arms and pass them to other members of the committee or to other committees.

MR SIBEKO: Sir, you'll pardon me if I'm wrong and you will help us here, in your application I see you make mention of the death of Lucky and in some of the pages you refer to Mbuso who was killed and at some stage or initially I asked you whether you were involved in such an activity and you said no, how come does this, or how does your application form make reference to this act which the last applicant referred to? How were you involved?

MR SOKO: As my attorney has just pointed out, I think we did not understand each other because I referred to two commanders. I just want him to explain as to which period he is relating to because each period had its own commander.

MR SIBEKO: Right, we've got evidence on record to the effect that at the time of the death of Gregory Mkwanazi and Mbuso, the commander was Mosa Msimango, what I'm interested in is the explanation as to what was your involvement if any, in the said incident of the death of Mbuso at the hands of amongst others, Mr Radebe who has just testified.

MR SOKO: When Mbuso came to my place or when he was taken he was taken to be questioned. I took part in the assault until such time that he was taken into the office.

MR SIBEKO: Now you have mentioned quite a few aspects here, you say when he arrived in the morning we took him for questions and we took him to the office and I was assaulting, what I want to find out is who came where in the morning and who took who for questioning? If there were questions which were posed to him, try to give us a full picture and if possible give us names.

MR SOKO: When Mbuso arrived we were all together because we had heard at an earlier stage that something had happened. The commanders approached Mbuso, disarmed him and took him. It was himself and Sipho, the ex-commander. He was taken in for questioning and he was brought back. That is where I started assaulting him, when he was brought back.

MR SIBEKO: Right, you took him to the office, now there is evidence already on record that when he came to the deceased, Gregory's place, he was there for the sole purpose of apologising. Did you hear him apologising and if so, what did he say? That is, what did Mbuso say?

MR SOKO: I did not hear Mbuso begging for forgiveness.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, you were amongst the people who took him to the offices at Mkwaie and as you have just stated you assaulted him, what else happened whilst you were still there or what happened in your presence?

MR SOKO: Some of the comrades were making utterances that they were going to kill him. I think I was the one who assaulted him.

MR SIBEKO: Right, we have heard about that, Sir. Proceed, what happened after that?

MR SOKO: He was taken to the office. We've got Mtjale Street, Mkwaie and Xhaba. I stay at Xhaba so I took him as far as the end of Xhaba Street and then I went back.

MR SIBEKO: Was the last time you saw the late Mbuso, because you say after those questions you went home, you didn't go to the office. Was that the last time you saw the deceased, Mbuso?

MR SOKO: That is so, that was the last time I saw him.

MR SIBEKO: When Mr Radebe who has just testified and the others, took him from the offices at Mkwaie to the circle at Xhaba Street, were you not there Sir?

MR SOKO: No, I was not.

MR SIBEKO: When Dan pulled a trigger, shooting at Mbuso, were you not there Sir?

MR SOKO: No, I wasn't present.

MR SIBEKO: Apart from these incidents, do you have any other incidents wherein you were involved carrying your orders or the orders of your commander in the activities of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-A?

MR SOKO: One other incident was the hostel incident. I don't remember the year and the date but that is where a certain journalist was killed, or a well-known journalist. I've forgotten what the name of the journalist is. At that time I had an axe and not a gun.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that the incident that you are referring to or the hostel that you are referring to is one of the hostels which are situated at Khumalo Street, Thokoza?

MR SOKO: That is so, Sir, it is in Khumalo Street in Thokoza.

MR SIBEKO: You say you were carrying an axe, what did you do with that axe on that particular day?

MR SOKO: I did not get into the hostel itself ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: Can you just repeat your answer?

MR SOKO: I was not able to gain entry into the hostel so we went back. So I had possessed an axe but I did not get an opportunity to use it.

MR SIBEKO: Now you said something to the effect that ...(no English translation) with that axe, what do you mean by ...(no English translation) with the axe?

MR SOKO: Touching the wall means taking cover because we were attacked before we could attack, so we ended up retreating without having launched an attack.

Could I just explain that we ended up outside the hostel building without having gained entry and actually launching an attack.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words on that particular day you didn't get an opportunity of using your axe against anybody or anything, you just ran away as a result of the appearance of the Internal Stability Unit, is that what you are saying?

MR SOKO: That is correct, Sir, that is what I am referring to.

MR SIBEKO: Are there any other incidents wherein you were involved where people might have been injured or died as a result of any shooting or stabbing or hacking, now that you are the first on to have carried an axe throughout?

MR SOKO: No, there are no other incidents, that is about all.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to state that you are applying for amnesty for your involvement in removing the late Mbuso from the late Gregory's place and the assaults that you made and your involvement in the group which went to the hostels, although nothing happened? Is that what you are applying for amnesty for?

MR SOKO: That is so.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.

You did not take part in the killing of Mbuso but you did assault him, what did you assault him with?

MR SOKO: I assaulted him with fists, I also kicked him. I did not have any weapon with.

ADV SANDI: Why did you assault him?

MR SOKO: The person that he killed was amongst my peer group, he was actually my neighbour so I felt aggrieved.

ADV SANDI: When you heard that he had been killed, what was your attitude to that? Did you feel that those who had killed him had done a good thing, did you agree with that?

MR SOKO: After he had been killed I did not really feel bad, I felt that he was getting a taste of his own medicine. I did not feel aggrieved. He had killed a person so he had it coming to him.

ADV SANDI: Is that to say that you agreed - it was your attitude that those who had killed him had done the right thing, is that correct?

MR SOKO: That is so.

ADV SANDI: Are you able to point out any political objective which would have been achieved by your group in killing Mbuso?

MR SOKO: Could you repeat your question please?

ADV SANDI: What did you think was going to be achieved by killing Mbuso? Do you have an answer for that?

MR SOKO: I do not have an answer.

ADV SANDI: You say the person he had killed was your neighbour, if this person was not your neighbour would your attitude have been the same?

MR SOKO: Could you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: I asked you why you assaulted Mbuso and I think one of the reasons you submitted was that the person he had killed was your neighbour, not so?

MR SOKO: That is correct, I said that.

ADV SANDI: Now I am asking, if the person who had been killed by Mbuso was not your neighbour, would your attitude have been the same about Mbuso? Would you still have felt that he should be killed?

MR SOKO: Are you saying if Mbuso had killed another person besides the person that he killed, is that what you are saying?

ADV SANDI: Yes, if he had killed a person who was not your neighbour, would your attitude have been the same?

MR SOKO: If that person was a member of the SDU, I was going to feel aggrieved because that blanket policy of and eye for an eye would or should have also applied to him, that is if the member was an SDU member.

ADV SANDI: This person who was killed was Greg Mkwanazi, were you very close to this person, was he your friend in the SDUs?

MR SOKO: Yes, he was a member of the SDU and a friend also, we grew up together.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Soko. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.

To come back to the question of the political objective. What do you understand this rule to be trying to prevent, a killer must be killed, why did you have this rule? How did this rule or policy help or what did it seek to prevent?

MR SOKO: Such a policy helped us not to lose a lot of our members, especially the SDU members. We laid this rule down so that there could be some semblance of order and there should be a framework within which we worked as SDU members not to kill each other, to prevent that so that people could be prevented from killing each other.

ADV GCABASHE: Also presumably to avoid third parties from infiltrating the SDU group to stop other people from coming to cause havoc within the group?

MR SOKO: That is so.

ADV GCABASHE: Now would you say this falls broadly within that whole idea of the political objective of the group?

MR SOKO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: The date of the incident is given in your application as the 8th of October 1993, do you confirm that?

MR SOKO: I'm not sure about the date.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it around this date that I've just mentioned to you now, is it around the October of 1993 when this incident happened?

MR SOKO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you at any stage as a member at the SDU carry a firearm?

MR SOKO: Yes, I did at some stage during the street patrols.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of firearm was that?

MR SOKO: AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that one of the section's firearms?

MR SOKO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you accept that possessing that firearm was illegal?

MR SOKO: Yes, I do accept.

CHAIRPERSON: And are you also asking for amnesty in respect of that, possessing that firearm illegally?

MR SOKO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you carry the firearm in 1993, or let me put it this way, did you start carrying the firearm in 1993?

MR SOKO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And till about when did you have the firearm?

MR SOKO: During the very same year, 1993. We never had a full possession or fulltime possession of the AK47s, they used to rotate amongst us. I don't know what became of the gun.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the gun normally under the control of your commander?

MR SOKO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko, any re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Soko, thank you, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for lunch until 2 o'clock. We are adjourned.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

CHAIRPERSON: Who is next?

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, the next applicant is Mr Danny Radebe. His application is on page 135.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, won't you stand please. Are your full names Danny Radebe?

DANNY RADEBE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Radebe, you are an applicant in this matter applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Is it correct that you were a member of the Self Defence Unit for Lusaka-A? Is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is so.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR RADEBE: It was in 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander at the time you joined the Self Defence Unit?

MR RADEBE: It was Mosa Msimango.

MR SIBEKO: Have you heard the evidence of Mr Patrick Radebe and Lucky Soko inasfar as it relates to the death of Gregory Mkwanazi and Mbuso?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Did you understand what they said?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in that activity?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I was there.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about your involvement from the beginning up to the end of this incident?

MR RADEBE: I was at Lucky's place, it was in the evening. When I was still sitting there Mbuso came and he knocked at the door and Lucky asked who was at the door, Mbuso did not respond.

Lucky asked for the second time and then Mbuso said "Come out with your axe". Lucky was a person who used to joke. He took his axe and he went to open the door. After he had opened the door, Mbuso shot him. I was looking at him. We were sitting there with Lucky's family. That is what I know.

MR SIBEKO: Now when you talk about Lucky, is he one and the same person as Gregory Mkwanazi?

MR RADEBE: Yes, he is the same person.

MR SIBEKO: You say you were at Gregory's place, where exactly in the house were you sitting and who else was there?

MR RADEBE: I was in the kitchen with his family.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to state exactly who in the family of the deceased was there, because by family you can mean quite a large number of people. Are you in a position to remember exactly who was there?

MR RADEBE: What family are you talking about, Lucky's family? A person - I've told you that it was his family, all the members of his family, even the children were there and the children saw everything that took place that day.

MR SIBEKO: Was Lucky's father present?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR SIBEKO: Was Lucky's mother present?

MR RADEBE: Yes, she was there.

CHAIRPERSON: If Lucky had a brother, was his brother there?

MR RADEBE: Yes, he was there.

MR SIBEKO: Who else was there?

MR RADEBE: It was myself who was a person from outside but the majority of the people there were Lucky's family.

MR SIBEKO: Alright. How do you that the person who was knocking at the door was Mbuso? Did he mention his name or did you see him?

MR RADEBE: I saw him.

MR SIBEKO: When the person knocked at the door just before the incident occurred, was it during the day or was it at night, and if it was at night, could you see the person who was outside, was there a light that could enable you to see that this is so and so?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I could see because in Lucky's kitchen there was a light outside and so you could see a person who was standing outside.

MR SIBEKO: Now that the light was on, will I be correct to say that it was at night when he, it was in the evening when he came to Lucky's place, that is when Mbuso came to Lucky's place?

MR RADEBE: Yes, it was in the evening.

MR SIBEKO: Now, Mbuso knocked at the door, a few words were exchanged, that is who is the person is knocking and then ultimately Lucky ended up opening up the door. Was there any other thing that was said before the shooting started, after the door was already opened?

MR RADEBE: No, nothing else was said. When he opened the door there was a shot and he ran away, he ran to next door and he came back as a person who was surprised, a person who did not know what was happening.

MR SIBEKO: When exactly did he come back and appear as if he is surprised as to what had occurred?

MR RADEBE: Soon after the incident. He came back on the very same night.

ADV GCABASHE: Just for absolute clarity, you're saying Mbuso came back?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Did Mbuso ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Sibeko.

Did Mbuso say anything whilst he was shooting Lucky?

MR RADEBE: No, he said nothing. I did not hear him saying anything, I just heard the shot.

ADV SANDI: Did Lucky try to throw a blow with the axe he was carrying, on Mbuso?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR SIBEKO: Now when he came back after the incident, as you say he appeared as if he was surprised, did he say anything? When he came back for the second time as you say he was surprised ...(end of tape)

MR RADEBE: ...(inaudible) I found him sitting there, sitting in the kitchen with his hands on his head.

MR SIBEKO: Now let me get you clear here. When Mbuso knocked at the door, the door was opened, when he fired you were in the kitchen. When everything occurred you were still in the kitchen, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Was there a time after that incident when you left the kitchen or the house at all?

MR RADEBE: After this incident I went home to fetch the car so that we could take Lucky to the hospital. When I came I saw him sitting there in the kitchen, that is Mbuso. I don't know what he said, if had said anything because I just got in there and he was quiet.

MR SIBEKO: Did you ask any question in connection with the said incident? In fact did you ask him why did he do that?

MR RADEBE: No, I did not ask because I was also very scared, my heart was beating very hard. I couldn't even talk because that incident was actually unexpected.

ADV SANDI: Did anyone of the people who were there in the house ask Mbuso why he had shot Lucky?

MR RADEBE: I don't know but when I came they were quiet, all of them were quiet in the house.

ADV SANDI: Are you able to say how many times Mbuso opened fire on Lucky?

MR RADEBE: Only once, in the ear.

MR SIBEKO: You say you went to fetch the vehicle so that you could take him to the hospital, did you actually take Lucky to the hospital?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I took him to the hospital.

MR SIBEKO: What happened thereafter? Did you come back with him or did you leave him at the hospital and what happened thereafter? What did you do thereafter?

MR RADEBE: We left him there at the hospital. We were just taking him there because he was dead already. We left him there at the hospital and we came back.

MR SIBEKO: Did you spend the night at Lucky's place, the very same evening after the incident took place or did you go home, or any other place?

MR RADEBE: I went home.

MR SIBEKO: The following morning, were you present when Mbuso came to apologise to the family of the deceased? That is the following morning after the incident that occurred.

MR RADEBE: No, I was not present.

MR SIBEKO: Were you present at the time Patrick and Lucky Soko took Mbuso to the office at Mkwaie Street?

MR RADEBE: No, I was not there.

MR SIBEKO: Were you part of the group that went to fetch Mbuso from the offices to the circle at Xhaba Street?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I was there.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about the role or your active role at the time when he was, when Mbuso was fetched from the offices until he was executed?

MR RADEBE: When Mbuso was about to be fetched I was fetched at my home with Stick's kombi. It was myself and Langa, Dingaan. We went to fetch Mbuso. I had a firearm, an AK47. We took Mbuso from Mkwaie Street. He was already assaulted when we went to Mkwaie, when we arrived there.

I wanted to shoot him there at Mkwaie but the other people said I mustn't kill him there we must take him far away to kill him. Mbuso requested us not to kill him far away from his home so as to make it easier for his family to get his dead body. We took him to Xhaba Street. At least it was nearer to his home. We took him out of the kombi. I shot him. He died.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to say or to tell us about the number of times you shot at him?

MR RADEBE: Seven bullets, I shot seven times with the AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: Is your client in a position to proceed or does he need a brief adjournment?

MR SIBEKO: That's what I wanted to find out, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, I would request that we adjourn a while for this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we in a position to proceed?

MR SIBEKO: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, I'm just reminding you you are still under oath.

DANNY RADEBE: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: (Continued) Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Now Mr Radebe, you said you spent about seven bullets on Mr Mbuso Khambule(?), is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: At the time you shot at him, what was your intention?

MR RADEBE: My intention was to kill him because he had killed.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that it was mostly because the policy or the slogan that the killer must be killed when you decided to kill him?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us as to what happened to the body of Mbuso after you had fired at him?

MR RADEBE: Truly speaking I don't know anything about that because after shooting him I ran away. I don't know what happened to his body.

MR SIBEKO: After you shot at him were you in a position to assess whether he was still alive just before you left or was he already dead?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I could see that he was dead. The last bullet penetrated his head and I was certain thereafter that he was dead.

MR SIBEKO: I'm under the impression that you are in a position to remember as to the exact parts of his body, as to which parts of his body were affected. Are you in a position to tell us, besides the last bullet that you've just referred to, exactly where in the body you shot at him?

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Sibeko. Do you think that detail is necessary? I'm asking this question because last time when we adjourned he seemed to have been very much emotionally affected by this. Maybe it could do more harm to him emotionally if one has to go through all those details as to which part of the body was hit by which bullet. I don't know.

MR SIBEKO: I'll withdraw that question.

Now the AK47 that you were using, what happened to it?

MR RADEBE: I took back to Mtjale Street because it belonged to the Mtjale Street people.

MR SIBEKO: Other than this incident, were you involved in any other incidents of violence?

MR RADEBE: No. I used to be a taxi driver but after work I would go on patrolling with the other people.

MR SIBEKO: During your patrol did you confiscate any weapon from anybody?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR SIBEKO: So there are no other incidents wherein you were involved, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: No other incidents.

MR SIBEKO: Is it correct that you are applying for amnesty firstly, because you were the one who shot at Mbuso and then secondly, of having possessed that AK47 at the time, which was unlawful?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is what I am applying for amnesty for.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Questions, Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Radebe, just assist me with one or two matters. The night you were sitting in the kitchen, the night Lucky was killed, you went home to fetch a vehicle to get Lucky to the hospital. When you came back you found Mbuso sitting in the kitchen, is that correct so far?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you confront Mbuso at all at that point?

MR RADEBE: No, I did not talk to him.

ADV GCABASHE: Was there a particular reason for not asking him why he had done that, at that point?

MR RADEBE: I said I was afraid, I couldn't even talk properly because my heart was beating so hard.

ADV GCABASHE: But you had definitely seen him at the door and you know that positively he is the one who shot Lucky?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Mr Radebe. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that both Mbuso and Lucky were in the same unit, Self Defence Unit with you?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then it appears to be obvious that they must have been known to each other, Lucky knew who Mbuso was and Mbuso knew who Lucky was?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any problems between the two of them that you were aware of?

MR RADEBE: No, I don't know anything about that.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of firearm did Mbuso use in this incident to shoot Lucky with?

MR RADEBE: It was an AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: Now from what you could observe, did Mbuso appear to be normal on this incident or did you detect anything abnormal about his behaviour apart from now shooting?

MR RADEBE: He was normal.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any clue why Mbuso shot Lucky?

MR RADEBE: No, I don't have a clue.

CHAIRPERSON: Within the unit, have you ever had other problems with Mbuso before this incident, this shooting incident?

MR RADEBE: No, there were no problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko, re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: There's one aspect, Mr Chairman.

Mr Radebe, Mr Patrick Radebe told us about the threats or harassment made by one, Ntlantla, who happens to be Mbuso's brother, have you experienced the same from the said Ntlantla?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us exactly what happened between yourself and Ntlantla when such threats or harassments were made?

MR RADEBE: When Ntlantla - Ntlantla used to say a lot of things when he sees me. He used to tell me that he will never rest until I am dead. Every time he used to utter such things. Even now I'm not free wherever I go because of him. I would request you here to give me a solution, tell me what to do about this situation because this has been happening for some time now.

MR SIBEKO: Up to this stage you haven't done anything to him, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Will you please repeat your question?

MR SIBEKO: Up to this stage or up to today you haven't done anything to Ntlantla, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I have done nothing to him.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko.

Mr Radebe, was Mbuso a comrade?

MR RADEBE: Yes, he was a comrade.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, thank you for testifying, you are excused from further attendance, thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, may I be excused for now, Mr Mopedi will proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, is your colleague, Mr Mopedi taking over? Right. You are excused, Mr Sibeko, thank you.

Mr Mopedi, you're back on the record?

MR MOPEDI: I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: I say you're back on the record. Will you indicate who the next applicant is.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. The next applicant is Siphiwe Madondo. It is for Lusaka-B and it's on page 111, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madondo, please stand and give us your full names.

SIPHIWE MADONDO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Madondo, you are the applicant in this matter and you were also, you are also a formal member of the Self Defence Unit for Lusaka-B, is that correct?

MR MADONDO: Yes.

MR MOPEDI: When did you become a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MADONDO: In 1992.

MR MOPEDI: You became a member in 1992.

MR MADONDO: Yes.

MR MOPEDI: But according to your application here it appears that you became a member in 1993, is that not correct?

MR MADONDO: Yes, but I as involved in more activities in 1993.

MR MOPEDI: Who was your commander?

MR MADONDO: It was Makasonke Mhlope.

MR MOPEDI: For your section, Lusaka-B, did you have a Committee of Seven?

MR MADONDO: No.

MR MOPEDI: From where were you taking instructions?

MR MADONDO: We were taking instructions from Makasonke Mhlope.

MR MOPEDI: Could you tell us why you are applying for amnesty?

MR MADONDO: In 1993 we were instructed by Makasonke to patrol during the day because it looked like the commander heard that there were people from KwaZulu Natal who were promised jobs here by their brothers who were staying in the hostels.

We had to take the instructions. We started patrolling during the day. Whenever we suspect a person we would go there and question the person and search that person's property. We met this other gentleman one day and when we called him to ask him questions he told us that received a letter from his brothers who were staying at Kweseni hostel.

We searched him and we found a membership card of IFP and we told him that we would show him where Kweseni hostel was. We took him. It was during the day. When we were on the way at Everest next to Radebe section, the other people came because everyone was patrolling at the time and this person was assaulted at that point.

I threw some stones at him and the other one came and shot at him. I don't even know that person because there were a lot of people there. I couldn't see who the person was.

It happened again in 1993. We were patrolling again as commanded by the commander at Nguni. It happened that there were people from Slovo section patrolling. A car from the mortuary came from Ngaki Street towards Penduka hostel. We heard Jamani screaming and saying "Here is the commander from the IFP". We started running towards that direction. The coffin from the hearse was taken out and the coffin was burnt down. That is why I'm asking for amnesty.

MR MOPEDI: Okay, let's got back to the first incident. You say this person, the one who eventually was killed who was going to Kweseni, are you referring to - could you explain if you say to Kweseni, which place are you referring to?

MR MADONDO: Will you please repeat that, will you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR MOPEDI: I'm saying, pertaining to the first incident you say there was a person who was actually told that he was going to Kweseni, now I want you to explain, if you say Kweseni, are you referring Kweseni hostel, are you referring to Kweseni station? Please be specific and be clear.

MR MADONDO: I'm referring to the Kweseni hostel. This person told us that he received a letter from his brothers who told him that they were going to find a job for him, so he was supposed to go to the Kweseni hostel. We decided to search that person to see if you had no firearms but we found the membership card of the IFP organisation.

MR MOPEDI: Were you seeing this person for the first time?

MR MADONDO: Yes, that is why we suspected him.

MR MOPEDI: And you didn't even know his name? Will I be correct if I say so?

MR MADONDO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: So the role that you have played, you have told us that you threw stones and one of you fired a shot at this person. I want to know, you in particular, what role have you played?

MR MADONDO: People who were afraid were not given firearms and our job was to patrol during the day because we were afraid to patrol during the night because the majority of us were taken by the Stability Unit and others would die.

I was only participating by using things that I would come across if a person is captured, just like the person we took to the Kweseni hostel. That is why I'm asking for amnesty because I did not do much. I did not participate in most things.

MR MOPEDI: Were you carrying a firearm?

MR MADONDO: No, as I've already you, it's not all of us who were given firearms. We were not brave, all of us. Some of us were not in favour of carrying firearms because we were not brave. Therefore I did not have a firearm.

MR MOPEDI: Did you do anything during the killing of that person?

MR MADONDO: Perhaps by throwing stones I killed that person, but I won't know.

MR MOPEDI: If I understand you very well, at one stage you threw a stone or a brick at this person.

MR MADONDO: Yes, I threw stones, bricks, I threw bricks.

MR MOPEDI: Let's come to the second incident. What role have you played during the second incident?

MR MADONDO: When Jamani called us, I am the person who heard that he was calling us and I rushed towards that direction and I was the first person. It was myself and Jamani who dragged the coffin out of the hearse. There were people who were called Chiza Boys in the township. I don't even know where the petrol came from but I saw petrol there and the person was in flames, the dead body was in flames. The only thing that I did was to drag the coffin out of the hearse and it broke.

MR MOPEDI: And do you know who was in the coffin?

MR MADONDO: No, I did not know. I had Jamani who told me that it was an IFP commander.

MR MOPEDI: And do you know the name of the said commander of the IFP?

MR MADONDO: No, I cannot remember.

MR MOPEDI: So you want to tell this hearing that at no stage did you carry a firearm, an AK47?

MR MADONDO: Yes, I have already said that it's not all of us who were brave enough to carry the firearms.

MR MOPEDI: You are asking for amnesty in respect of your acts, the first one being where you threw the person who was going to Kweseni hostel with a brick?

MR MADONDO: Yes, because I am not happy because of all those things that I did.

MR MOPEDI: And the second one where you have pulled a coffin out of a hearse?

MR MADONDO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Are there any further incidents that you would like to tell this hearing?

MR MADONDO: No.

MR MOPEDI: Is there anything that you would like to add?

MR MADONDO: No.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mopedi.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Madondo, did you see the name of the funeral undertakers? Normally they will write the name of the company on the vehicle, did you pick up the name?

MR MADONDO: No, this took place in 1993, I cannot even remember what was written on the car, on the hearse.

ADV SANDI: That vehicle of the funeral undertakers, was it also burnt?

MR MADONDO: No, it was not burnt down.

ADV SANDI: Only the coffin and the body were burnt?

MR MADONDO: Yes.

ADV SANDI: You were not at any stage asked by members of the SDUs to clean, as we were told by other applicants, to clean up the weapons?

MR MADONDO: Will you please repeat your question?

MR MADONDO: You did not at any stage touch the weapons, an AK47 and a rifle or a pistol with your hands, did you?

MR MADONDO: As I've already told you, most of the times if you are not brave you wouldn't be given the firearms. I was also afraid because the people who were carrying firearms were dying and they would be arrested by the stability unit. I was afraid to touch a firearm because I thought I was going to die if I do.

ADV SANDI: Were you ever requested by your comrades to check the whereabouts of members of the IFP and the ISU?

MR MADONDO: The only mandate that I was given was in 1993 when we were told to patrol and take the suspects for questioning. There is nothing else that I can think of.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Madondo, in 1993 you would have been 13/14 years old, am I right?

MR MADONDO: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: The patrolling duties that you did you did with a commander in charge of the group, or who would be in charge?

MR MADONDO: The duty of the commander was to give the instructions and the person who would be staying in that vicinity would do the work, would carry the duties.

ADV GCABASHE: So it's that local person who would lead that small group that happened to be patrolling on that day?

MR MADONDO: Will you please repeat your question?

ADV GCABASHE: You are saying it's the local person who would be the leader of the small group that happened to be patrolling on any one day?

MR MADONDO: No, it happened sometimes that even the other people would pass through our township. It was not only the local people because all the sections were helping one another.

ADV GCABASHE: Alright. Let's talk about the specific day when you came across this man with the letter and the IFP card. How many of you were together?

MR MADONDO: It was a lot of us because it was during the day and it was not only the people from our section, there were other people also.

ADV GCABASHE: Now whose decision was it to take this man to Kweseni hostel?

MR MADONDO: The gentlemen or the comrades told us to take him to the hostel but I could see that the man was not taken to the hostel.

ADV GCABASHE: This is what I was trying to understand, because you were in the middle of a war in a sense, with the IFP and I was trying to understand this new strategy of taking this person to Kweseni hostel. What you are then saying to me is, your own sense was that you were not taking him to Kweseni hostel?

MR MADONDO: Yes, because we found an IFP membership in his pocket.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, then the rest of the evidence makes sense, or I understand the rest of the evidence. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was the coffin, was it inside the hearse?

MR MADONDO: Yes, it was inside the hearse.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you get to the coffin?

MR MADONDO: All the sections were patrolling during the day. The commander from Slovo, Jamani, is the one who stopped the hearse. We were at Givani Street. He called upon us and he told us that here is the commander of IFP and we came running. He had already stopped the hearse at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what I actually wanted to hear from you is, did you have to open the hearse and did you do any damage to the hearse in that process?

MR MADONDO: No, only the coffin was taken out of the hearse. Nothing happened to the hearse, only the coffin that was taken out of the hearse.

CHAIRPERSON: And the driver was left to go?

MR MADONDO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anybody at any stage identify the corpse further than just an IFP commander? Did anybody say what the names of this person was?

MR MADONDO: I think Jamani was staying at Slovo and this is where the conflict was worse than the other areas. He used to know the majority of the IFP members. He is the one who told us that that was the IFP commander, that is Jamani.

CHAIRPERSON: But he never mentioned a name or any name that you can remember?

MR MADONDO: He did mention the name but I cannot remember the name.

CHAIRPERSON: When about did this incident happen with the hearse?

MR MADONDO: That was in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't remember anything more, like the month or any further indication as to when this thing happened?

MR MADONDO: I only remember that it was in 1993. That is the only thing I can remember.

CHAIRPERSON: And in respect of the incident with the person who had the membership card of the IFP and the letter, you said that was also in 1993. Can you give any better indication about the date in that case?

MR MADONDO: No, I only remember that both incidents took place in 1993, but I can't remember the dates.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure if you have actually made if clear, but let me ask you again. What actually happened to that person with the IFP membership card? He was shot at as well, was he killed or what happened to him?

MR MADONDO: We took him and he was under the impression that we were taking him to Kweseni hostel. When we were at Everest - there's Everest and there's Radebe section. It was during the day and the other people from Radebe and from Everest came and one of them had a firearm. He shot at this gentleman. We had already pelted the gentleman with stones.

CHAIRPERSON: So did that person die or what happened to him?

MR MADONDO: Yes, he passed away.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mopedi, re-examination?

MR MOPEDI: No re-examination, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Madondo, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mopedi?

MR MOPEDI: Mr Chairman, I understand that we have an applicant who apparently will be leaving the country tomorrow and I would prefer that Mr Sibeko lead him first before I come back the other applicant. If I may be excused in the meantime, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So we will excuse you for the moment. Thank you, Mr Mopedi.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, the next applicant is Mazulandile Ephraim Mzondo.

ADV STEENKAMP: His application appears on page 212, Mr Chairman, the A bundle, Lusaka-A.

CHAIRPERSON: A?

ADV STEENKAMP: Lusaka-A yes, Mr Chairman, 212.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mzondo, do you hear?

MR MZONDO: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: Please give us your full names for the record.

MAZULANDILE EPHRAIM MZONDO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Mzondo, you are an applicant in this matter and applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR MZONDO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: You are applying for amnesty for the activities that you were involved in as a member of the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-A, is that correct?

MR MZONDO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR MZONDO: I joined during the year 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander?

MR MZONDO: Mosa Msimango.

MR SIBEKO: What are the activities you were involved in whilst you were a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MZONDO: It's the Penduka section incident, Buthelezi, as well as the Mshayazafe incident.

MR SIBEKO: In both incidents, were you carrying a weapon or an AK47 which you used?

MR MZONDO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us exactly when these incidents that you've just referred to, when those incidents took place?

MR MZONDO: I was staying at Ngaki Section. It's in Lusaka-A and I was quite close the Slovo area where there has always been fights breaking out between ANC and IFP members. That is the first incident that I will refer to.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us exactly when that incident that you are referring to occurred?

MR MZONDO: As I started joining the SDUs during 1993, most of the time there were community members who were ANC members as well and we were fighting with IFP members who used to launch attacks on comrades. Many a time out brothers would lose their lives or fellow comrades. That is when I decided to join and have an input towards the protection of the community.

MR SIBEKO: That is fully understood by everybody here, Sir. What I want to find out is, are you in a position to tell us that such an such an incident occurred in 1993 or 1994?

MR MZONDO: I had an AK47, and it would happen that when we went to launch attacks upon our enemies. When they shot at us we would also return fire. I think there were some who were injured or others probably died.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, I think there is a problem here.

ADV SANDI: Mr Sibeko, maybe you could take them one by one. You could go by incident.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Mzondo, you referred to the incident at Mshayazafe and the other incident at Penduka, when did the incident at Penduka take place? Are you in a position to tell us?

MR MZONDO: The Penduka incident took place immediately after I had joined the Self Defence during 1993, when we were patrolling with the comrades at night. At times during the day when there were sporadic outbreaks of violence, when we were being attacked by the IFP members.

The Mshayazafe incident I think, if I remember well, was during 1994 and we were fighting with the hostel dwellers who were IFP members as well. Under the instructions that I was given by my commander I also went to the hostel to fight or to launch an attack upon the hostel dwellers who were also IFP members.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that in both incidents you were carrying and AK47 which you used to shoot against the people you were fighting with?

MR MZONDO: That is correct because I would not go to launch an attack unarmed. Each time I go to launch an attack I would have to carry a firearm.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us whether through your shooting you killed or injured anybody?

MR MZONDO: What I can say is when I was fighting I could see that people were approaching and even though I didn't know their particular names, I knew that they were enemies and I could identify them because they used to have these red headbands or bandannas over their foreheads. Whenever we attacked we attacked with the intention to kill, so I do not know who I killed or who I injured but I do know that I did injure or kill some.

MR SIBEKO: Do you know what happened to the AK47 that you were using?

MR MZONDO: The AK47 that I was using, even though I do not remember the month but I think it was just after the elections, during the month of September, the police came to my place and discovered the guns and that is when the guns were confiscated.

MR SIBEKO: You are referring to arms, how many arms were there when the police came?

MR MZONDO: There were about three firearms. There were other comrades, Carlson as well as Shorty. On that particular day of the arrival of the police there was relative calm. Because I had a place of my own and was able to take the guns and store them at my place, I took them but unfortunately the police confiscated the guns on the very same day that I had taken them.

MR SIBEKO: Were those arms all AK47s or were they different?

MR MZONDO: They were all AK47s.

MR SIBEKO: Other than the two incidents that you have referred to, is there any other incident that you were involved in that you would want us to know about?

MR MZONDO: No that I can recall besides the ones that I have already mentioned.

MR SIBEKO: So in effect you are applying for amnesty for possession of the three AK47s, your involvement in the shooting incidents that occurred at Penduka and Mshayazafe, is that correct?

MR MZONDO: That is true, that is why I have come here to ask for amnesty.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Sir.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mzondo, did you say you were involved in the Buthelezi incident, Buthelezi Street incident or is that the same as Mshayazafe?

MR MZONDO: No, these are two different places. Buthelezi is a Street which is in Slovo section.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you talk about the Penduka incident, is it the same thing as the Buthelezi incident?

MR MZONDO: Penduka is the name that we used before and we thereafter called it Slovo, but you could say it's one and the same place.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but in your evidence-in-chief - that is what my colleague is referring to, in your evidence-in-chief you also referred to a Buthelezi incident, now is that the same as the Penduka incident? Just so that we don't confuse these things.

MR MZONDO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Leah? Mr Sibeko, any re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mzondo, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, what is the position now?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, may I hand over to Mr Mopedi.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mopedi, it's over to you.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. The next applicant is Johannes Amos Methula for Lusaka-B, and the application is on page 8. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Methula, can you hear?

MR METHULA: Yes, I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you please stand and give us your full names?

JOHANNES AMOS METHULA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Mopedi?

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Methula, you are the applicant and you are applying for amnesty in this matter, is that correct?

MR METHULA: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: And you are also a former member of the SDU for Lusaka-B?

MR METHULA: That is so.

MR MOPEDI: Who was your commander?

MR METHULA: My commander was Makazonke Mhlope who is since deceased.

MR MOPEDI: As a member of the Self Defence Unit for Lusaka-B, what were your duties?

MR METHULA: My main job functions were not really clear but we noticed that we were followers, or I was one of the followers. I did not have any main job functions within the group.

MR MOPEDI: Why were you a member of the Self Defence Unit for Lusaka-B?

MR METHULA: I became a member of the SDU because of the situation that prevailed in the area. The area was no longer safe.

MR MOPEDI: How as the situation, could you explain?

MR METHULA: We had to live under great fear, adults as well as children, because there were attacks that were launched on residents.

MR MOPEDI: So why were you running away? That is what I want to know.

MR METHULA: Whilst we were staying there we had to flee because of one simple reason, that there was a group calling themselves SPUs, they were members of the IFP and they would come and launch attacks in the residential area and we had to flee the area for our own safety.

MR MOPEDI: If I understood you correctly you were running away from SPU?

MR METHULA: Yes, that is correct because we did not wait for them to attack us. We ended up not staying in our own places because of anticipated attacks and the burning down of houses.

MR MOPEDI: So if I may ask you, why are you applying for amnesty?

MR METHULA: I'm asking for amnesty because there is a certain incident that took place in Lusaka-B. If my memory serves me well I think it was during the year 1993. On that particular day it was a funeral of a certain comrade by the name of Stampu. I could say the majority of the SDUs were attending that particular funeral.

Just before they left their commander, Makasonke issued out an instruction that I should not go to the graveside because the situation was quite volatile and there were no guarantees that I was going to be safe, then he ordered me to remain and look after the place until they come back from the funeral.

MR MOPEDI: Proceed.

MR METHULA: After they had left, the majority of the people in our section, that is Lusaka-B, had gone to that funeral. The situation was quite calm that day but I heard screams from the people, as well as some gunfire but because I had been left to look after the place and ensure the safety of the other residents, I went out to enquire as to what was going on and they said that the SPU was launching an attack.

As I was asking that question I was in Mbele Street where I resided, I crossed over to Givani Street. When you are in Givani Street you are able to see or have a clear overview of the area as well as the oncoming enemy.

When I got to Givani Street and looked over Tshabalala Street, I could see the members of the IFP as well as the SPU. They were dressed in red, some had red handkerchiefs, red bandannas as well as red T-shirts and the people now were fleeing for their safety and the IFP members were coming up Tshabalala Street. That is the street where you can see clearly because it's a straight street and flat whereby you can see the enemy approaching, and down Tshabalala Street was an IFP stronghold. As they were approaching they were shooting indiscriminately. We could hear some gunfire and the guns were pointed towards us.

What shocked me even more was that they went around burning houses and leaving debris behind them. As I had been given instructions to ensure the safety of the residents I also had an AK47 in my possession and when I realised that this was happening I had actually hidden my gun in the field and I decided to run and get the gun in order to be able to protect myself should I be attacked.

I went to Mkatizwe Primary School to seek refuge because this was next to Givani Street and in Givani Street you could also have a clear view of the oncoming enemy. I got a place that I could call a cover. I was able to hide myself but also keep a lookout on the enemy.

When I arrived there the gunfire went on and I could see some houses burning. That was the aftermath of the SPUs. I had absolutely no alternative and I just had to try and protect myself as well as the other members of the community who were not armed. I fired my AK47, pointing towards the oncoming crowd. Even though the crowd was quite some distance away from me, I was able to shoot.

Immediately thereafter I saw the Internal Stability Unit who were actually escorting the group as the group went on conducting this reign of terror and the Internal Stability Unit approached. I ran and ducked for cover because even the gun that I had fired made a loud bang that scared me and I fled the area.

Just before I fired my AK47, I realised that amongst those who had gone to the funeral who were in the family car, had already come back from the graveside and Stambu was inside that family car. Stambu came to me at Mkatizwe Primary School. He told me that the situation is bad out there and we fled the area.

MR MOPEDI: You said the direction in which these IFP people were coming, something was burning, could you be specific, what was actually burning?

MR METHULA: We saw some smoke or I saw the smoke and they were burning houses. I could actually see the houses that were being burnt down but I could not see some of the things that were burning or where the smoke emanated from.

MR MOPEDI: And by SPU, are you referring to the Self Protection Unit of IFP?

MR METHULA: ...(no English translation)

MR MOPEDI: How many shots had you fired on that day?

MR METHULA: Because it was the first time that I had an AK47 in my possession, I had never used a gun before, and as a result I had no knowledge as to how many shots I fired but what I do remember is that that AK47 was in auto and within a short space of time it was able to fire a number of bullets.

MR MOPEDI: If I understand you correctly, you fired a number of shots?

MR METHULA: When I pulled the trigger I only pulled it once. As to how many bullets came out of the gun, I'm not sure, but immediately when I pulled the trigger there was a loud bang and a lot of noise that actually shocked me. I actually ran away, so I can't tell how many bullets I fired.

MR MOPEDI: Now the AK47 was aimed or directed or pointed towards these IFP people?

MR METHULA: Yes, that is correct. I was firing towards their direction because I did not want them to advance towards me and charge.

MR MOPEDI: But when you fired towards their direction, did you realise that you'd kill people or injure people?

MR METHULA: I wouldn't be able to say whether there is anybody who got injured or anybody who died because the group that I was firing at actually scattered, they dispersed as soon as I had fired the shots or the shot.

MR MOPEDI: But with your act you foresaw that you could kill or injure?

MR METHULA: Yes, that is true, I cannot deny that. In such a situation anything can happen because I could say that there was no time to say you're scaring a person off, you had to shoot to kill or prevent the enemy from advancing.

MR MOPEDI: So did you kill or injure anyone?

MR METHULA: As I've already explained, immediately after pulling the trigger the crown dispersed, the Internal Stability Unit approached and I was shocked. I also ran away. I wasn't able to wait and see whether there were any injured or people who died. I ran for my life thereafter.

MR MOPEDI: You don't exclude the possibility that you injured or even killed someone with your act?

MR METHULA: I would not exclude that possibility because it's a well-known fact that a gun kills. Even though my intention was not really to kill but to actually prevent an eminent attack. But if there was a threat upon my body and limb I was prepared to kill for that. I was prepared to kill in order to protect myself as well as members of the community.

MR MOPEDI: Are there any further incidents in which you were involved with your firearm?

MR METHULA: Yes, there are other incidents that I was involved in, minor incidents. For instance patrolling and looking for people who were in possession of illegal firearms as well as the SPUs.

MR MOPEDI: So if you found those people with illegal firearms or weapons ...(indistinct) the weapons, what did you do with the illegal weapons?

MR METHULA: Since I started patrolling the firearms or the arms that we used to get, assegais, tomahawks, axes, we would confiscate them and give them to the commander and he would pass them over to higher authority.

MR MOPEDI: So the AK47 that you used to scare away IFP members, that you used to fire at IFP members on the day of the funeral, what happened to it actually?

MR METHULA: With regard to this particular incident, I spoke about one AK47 that was in my possession. It would happen sometimes that in a particular section there would be only one or two guns. This firearm that was in my possession during the year 1993, I think it was nine days before the elections. It happened that Stambu - there was a fight that had broken out at the hostel and Stambu went there and apparently the gun was confiscated by the soldiers because the soldiers came looking for the gun. The explanation that we got was that this gun was confiscated by the soldiers and Stambu ran away.

MR MOPEDI: Were you personally there or was it explained to you?

MR METHULA: Could you repeat your question please?

MR MOPEDI: My question is, when the firearm was taken away from Stambu, as you have testified, were you there personally or is that what you heard?

MR METHULA: When the Gun was taken from Stambu I never went there, I wasn't there to fight because the guns were few, but when he came back he no longer had the gun. As to whether the gun was really taken I cannot say with certainty.

MR MOPEDI: So are you asking for amnesty?

MR METHULA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: And are you asking for amnesty for being in unlawful possession of an AK47, firing the shot at members of the IFP?

MR METHULA: Yes, that is true. I'm asking for amnesty for possession of the AK47, illegal possession as well as firing at the enemies or the then enemies. It's because of the situation that prevailed at that time.

MR MOPEDI: Is there anything that you would like to add which you might have left out?

MR METHULA: There is no other incident that I was involved in. These are the incidents that I've already referred to and testified to.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I assume there is no re-examination, Mr Mopedi?

MR MOPEDI: None Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

Mr Methula, you are excused, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn at this stage until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock or as soon thereafter as we can start the proceedings. We're adjourned.