CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, we are about to start. Just for the record, today is Wednesday, the 2nd of December 1998. It is a continuation of the hearing of the amnesty applications in respect of the Thokoza Self Defence Unit members.

The presiding panel is constituted as previously indicated on the record and the appearances are roughly the same. We will indicate when the representatives for the applicants change as we go along.

The first matter on the roll this morning is that of Mr Arthur Bongani Ndaba. It's amnesty application AM 7050/97. It relates to the Lusaka-B applications and it appears at page 16 of that bundle.

For the record, it's Ms Nhlayisi who is appearing for the applicants this morning.

MS NHLAYISI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Mr Ndaba, can you hear?

MR NDABA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Please stand and give us your full names for the record.

ARTHUR BONGANI NDABA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down.

EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Ndaba, you are the applicant. You have applied for amnesty in these proceedings, is that correct?

MR NDABA: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: At some stage you were a member of the SDUs, that is the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-B, Thokoza, is that correct?

MR NDABA: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: You were involved in some incidents of violence, do you care to tell this forum about those incidents where you were involved?

MR NDABA: We went to Polla Park together with Makasonke to buy some ammunition. This man was known to Makasonke ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: Could you slow down because we are writing.

MR NDABA: We went to Polla Part, that is myself and Makasonke, to buy some arms or guns. This man was known to Makasonke. We wanted to purchase two AK47s. This man quoted us a sum of R3000,00 for two AKs. We said that we do not have that kind of money and we promised to come back and see him.

We went back the next day with a sum of R2000,00. He duly gave us the two AK47s. And the next ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: Before you proceed, just roughly when would this have been? If you can't remember the month, at least give us the year.

MR NDABA: It was during the year 1993, though I don't remember the month.

MS NHLAYISI: Makasonke, the person you're mentioning that you went to Polla Park with, he was your commander, is that correct?

MR NDABA: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Where did you get this money to go and buy these two AK47s from?

MR NDABA: Makasonke said he had earlier collected the money from the community members.

MS NHLAYISI: You knew the purpose of going to buy those firearms, as to what they were going to be used for, is that correct?

MR NDABA: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Except the two AK47s that you bought from Thokoza, from Polla Park, pardon, is there anything else that you bought on that particular visit to Polla Park?

MR NDABA: Yes, we did.

MS NHLAYISI: Could you mention what it was?

MR NDABA: We also bought ammunition, some bullets, about 60 of them, that is AK47 bullets.

MS NHLAYISI: How many times did you visit this place at Polla Park with the purpose of going to get arms and ammunition?

MR NDABA: We went there about three times.

MS NHLAYISI: What happened to those AK47s that you bought from Polla Park?

MR NDABA: They were taken by Makasonke and he said that he would report to me after quite some time as to what happened to the AK47s, but he never came back to report as to what became of the AK47s.

MS NHLAYISI: The purpose of going to get arms and ammunition from Polla Park, did you know what they were going to be used for?

MR NDABA: Yes, he did tell me the purpose.

MS NHLAYISI: Could you explain briefly what they were going to be used for?

MR NDABA: To protect members of the community from enemies.

MS NHLAYISI: So because Makasonke was the commander in your area, you said he took those arms, you suppose he gave them to your fellow comrades.

MR NDABA: Yes, that is so.

MS NHLAYISI: Is there any other incident wherein you were involved except this one of buying arms and ammunition?

MR NDABA: No.

MS NHLAYISI: So you are here before this forum today, you want amnesty for your participation for dealing in illegal arms, is that correct?

MR NDABA: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: The person from whom you bought firearms, do you know his name?

MR NDABA: No, I do not know his name.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are there any questions, Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the Panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Ndaba, you were not involved in the use of those arms, were you?

MR NDABA: No.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Ndaba, just in terms of your other participation in the SDU structure, meetings about where these firearms might be used, discussions on how to protect the community, strategising on where you were going to do certain things as SDU members, did you participate in any of that activity?

MR NDABA: No, I never participated.

ADV GCABASHE: Patrols in the community, did you participate in any of those activities?

MR NDABA: No, I never participated.

ADV GCABASHE: Anything related to housing, which is another activity that we've heard about at these hearings, assisting people to relocate, did you have anything to do with that at all?

MR NDABA: I had absolutely nothing to do with that.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nbaba, I just want pick up on the line of questions that Advocate Gcabashe has just touched upon, which is important for our purposes and also for the requirement that an applicant has to make a full disclosure.

Now when did you join this Self Defence Unit?

MR NDABA: During 1993, in January. The month was January 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you been living in Lusaka-A section in Thokoza, sorry, B, section B of Lusaka and Thokoza for some time prior to 1993?

MR NDABA: I was born and bred there in Lusaka-B.

CHAIRPERSON: We have heard evidence that there was trouble in Thokoza ever since approximately 1990, in the sense of a conflict or a fight involving people who apparently supported the Inkatha Freedom Party and who were mainly resident in the hostels in and around Thokoza and members of the community in Thokoza, predominantly members or supporters of the African National Congress. Now what do you know about that situation, and I'm speaking from the beginning of the conflict. Have you been involved in any of this at all?

MR NDABA: No, I was never involved.

CHAIRPERSON: You were about 20 years of age in 1990, would that be correct?

MR NDABA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you doing in 1990?

MR NDABA: I was sick.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in hospital or were you at home?

MR NDABA: I was at home.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that for the whole of 1990 or for the better part of 1990?

MR NDABA: I was ill until 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it after you had recovered that you then joined the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-B?

MR NDABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that you joined the SDU?

MR NDABA: I joined voluntarily, I went there myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and what motivated you to join the SDU?

MR NDABA: We were being attacked by IFP members from the hostel. At that stage I was scared to leave my place or flee the area so I decided to join the rest of the members or most of the members of the community in forming a Self Defence Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you decide that you have to fight back against these attacks?

MR NDABA: Yes, it was my own decision and my own initiative.

CHAIRPERSON: And you decided that the best way of fighting back was to arm yourselves with firearms and for you personally to join the structure that was so armed and was able to fight back, would that be correct?

MR NDABA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you receive any training in handling firearms?

MR NDABA: No, I received no training.

CHAIRPERSON: The AK47 rifles, there were two that you bought from this person in Polla Park, is that right?

MR NDABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were those firearms kept?

MR NDABA: Makasonke took them and said he was going to take them to Mr Ngwenya's place. Yes, Mr Ngwenya's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see those firearms subsequent to having bought them, in the possession of your fellow members of the SDU?

MR NDABA: The last time that I saw these guns was when Makasonke took them. I never saw them again.

CHAIRPERSON: Did your SDU engage in patrolling or in fighting with the IFP people?

MR NDABA: Yes, other members of the SDU were involved in some patrols.

CHAIRPERSON: And in fights?

MR NDABA: Yes, they were involved in patrols as well as protecting the other members of the community.

CHAIRPERSON: And did they use those AK47 rifles in these fights?

MR NDABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And a question that has been asked of many of the other applicants in these proceedings and which are important, do you accept that these AK47 rifles would in all probability been used to injure and to kill people in these fights?

MR NDABA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And we assume that you like many other members of the SDU who appeared before us, are not able to identify any particular victim of these fights?

MR NDABA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You supported your SDU in what they had been doing, is that correct?

MR NDABA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think it would be fair to say from what you had told us, that you were aware of most of the activities that your SDU engaged in?

MR NDABA: Could you repeat your question please?

CHAIRPERSON: We assume that from what you had told us, that you were aware of most of the activities that your SDU engaged in.

MR NDABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now just give us a rough idea, you joined in 1993, the SDU activities continued for the better part of that year according to the evidence that was led before us, and it could have extended into 1994, fairly close up to the elections, now what were you doing as a member of the SDU in that entire period?

MR NDABA: I was looking after my grandmother because I was living with my grandmother who was quite old and frail, so I had to look after her most of the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now apart from your personal commitments, I'm speaking entirely about your position as a member of that SDU, we want some idea as to what you were doing, were you attending discussions, what were you doing? Just give us an idea.

MR NDABA: The only thing that I was involved in was the purchase of guns. That is the only instance in which I was involved, the purchase of guns, arms and ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, I know you have spoken about that, that specific incident, I'm talking more broadly than that. You were a member of that SDU for about a year and a little bit more, give us an idea as to what you were doing. You must have contact with your fellow SDU members, you knew the commander, Makasonke, you knew him well because you seemed to accompany him to Polla Park on a very important mission. What sort of - what were you doing as an SDU member? We know you didn't go and fight, you've already told us all that.

MR NDABA: No, I was never involved in any other thing besides the one that I've already mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, we'll move on. You knew that the AK47s were unlicensed. I think you've told that already. And we assume you knew that in spite of everything else, the shooting and the possible killing and injuring of people and so on, all of that was unlawful activities, not so?

MR NDABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just trying to understand exactly the ambit of your application to us. You have already covered the AK47s, but would we understand your application correctly if we were to conclude that what you are asking really is for amnesty to be granted to you for whatever you would be liable for because of the activities of the SDU of which you were a member?

MR NDABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ndaba. Ms Nhlayisi?

MS NHLAYISI: No re-examination, Mr Chair, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Ndaba, thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

------------------------------------------------------------------------- MS NHLAYISI: The next applicant is Jeremiah Velaphi Mazibuko. His application appears on page 1 of the Lusaka-B bundle, amnesty application number AM 7020/97.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, may I be so rude to interrupt here for a moment. While we are on Lusaka-B, I'm informed that the application of Mr Pakati which appears on page 162, Lusaka-B, he's deceased recently. That's is Mr Buksomolo Kaizer Pakati of Lusaka-B, page 162. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that Mr Pakati is deceased?

ADV STEENKAMP: That is correct, Mr Chairman, he is deceased. Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) about what should happen to that application?

Mr Mazibuko, can you hear?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Please stand and then you give us your full names for the purposes of the record please.

JEREMIAH VELAPHI MAZIBUKO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Ms Nhlayisi?

EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI: As the Chair pleases.

Mr Mazibuko, you were a member of the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-B, Thokoza, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: When did you join the SDUs?

MR MAZIBUKO: During 1993.

MS NHLAYISI: You're now applying for amnesty for your participation in the activities of the SDU, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Under whose command were you at the time you were a member?

MR MAZIBUKO: It was Makasonke Mhlope.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you have any specific incidents that you would like to bring to the attention of this forum, wherein you were involved in activities of violence towards other people?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you wish to name those incidents?

MR MAZIBUKO: It was myself, the late Stambu, Siphiwe and Muzi. Stambu had an AK47, I had a hammer. The other two were not armed. We went to Mhlongo, House number 1251.

MS NHLAYISI: When did this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on, just hold on. We have to make a note of what you are saying, all that information that you tell us is very important to decide your application. When you speak then they translate for us down there so that we can hear what you are saying in English, alright? So you must please go a bit slower and give us a chance just to take down what you are saying, otherwise we wouldn't know what it is that you were trying to tell us.

Now you said that Stambu had an AK47 rifle, alright? What else?

MR MAZIBUKO: Stambu had an AK47, I had a hammer and the other two were not armed. We went to Mazibuko's place. Mazibuko was a tenant in that particular house. Stambu knocked at the door ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Mazibuko was a resident where, in Lusaka-B?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: In which year did this particular incident take place?

MR MAZIBUKO: That was during the same year I joined, during 1993.

MS NHLAYISI: You said Mazibuko resided - you said that you went to a house in Mhlongo Street, can you identify this particular house?

MR MAZIBUKO: It was Mr Soko's house.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you know the address there?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do, the address is number 1251, Mhlongo Street.

MS NHLAYISI: What transpired on your arrival at this house?

MR MAZIBUKO: Stambu knocked at the door with his AK47. Somebody opened the door and Stambu shot at the man who opened the door and gave the AK to Muzi, who is now late. Siphiwe also give the AK and a chance to shoot. We thereafter fled.

ADV GCABASHE: What did Muzi do with that firearm? Stambu gave him the AK47, and then?

MR MAZIBUKO: Muzi also shot. Siphiwe was also given the AK47 by Muzi and Siphiwe also had his turn at shooting the victim.

MS NHLAYISI: Okay, after Muzi and Siphiwe shot this person, you said you then ran away, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct, that is so.

MS NHLAYISI: At the time you fled, did you realise whether this particular person was injured or dead?

MR MAZIBUKO: I have no clarity because we ran thereafter.

MS NHLAYISI: Did you at any later stage maybe gather any information as to whether he died or he survived the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: We were told at a later stage that that person died.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you know who this particular person is?

MR MAZIBUKO: I do not know his name, all I know is that he was a Mazibuko.

MS NHLAYISI: Yourself, you did not shoot that particular day, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: However you knew at the time when you went to this particular place, that the purpose of going there was to attack this particular person?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I did.

MS NHLAYISI: Before going there you might have foreseen that the circumstances of your action might be fatal, that the consequences might be fatal?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: You said you had a hammer with you, what did you intend doing with this hammer?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was going to knock the door down had he resisted our presence.

MS NHLAYISI: But it was never used?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, just a minute.

Can you repeat that question please, they were translating. ...(inaudible) when you asked a question so I didn't hear that at all.

MS NHLAYISI: The hammer that you had in your possession, you say it was intended to open the door but it was never used because this occupant of this house voluntarily opened the door, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is so.

MS NHLAYISI: Are there any other incidents wherein you were involved, except this one at Mhlongo Street?

MR MAZIBUKO: No.

MS NHLAYISI: Were you at any stage during your membership as an SDU, involved in acts like patrolling the street, barricading the street and so forth?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I was never involved in any other incident.

MS NHLAYISI: Were you actively involved in meetings wherein attacks and defence actions were being planned?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I never used to attend any meetings.

MS NHLAYISI: So the only activity is this one at Mhlongo Street? You're saying at no stage were you in possession of an unlicensed firearm?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is so.

MS NHLAYISI: You knew the activities of your fellow members in the SDU, that they were involved in shootouts, whether in defence of your community or whatever, you agreed with what they were doing at that stage?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is so.

MS NHLAYISI: So you are asking this forum to grant you amnesty for your participation in the incident in Mhlongo Street wherein a person was killed, and other activities involving the SDU members, which activities you agreed with?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Questions Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the Panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Mazibuko, in your application form at page 2, you say:

Which actions are you referring to?

MR MAZIBUKO: This could be a mistake on the part of the writer of the statement.

ADV SANDI: How did it come to your knowledge that Mr Mazibuko had died?

MR MAZIBUKO: I heard from some members of the community that he had died.

ADV SANDI: Were you involved in attempts to try and get firearms for the SDUs?

MR MAZIBUKO: No.

ADV SANDI: You had nothing to do with the keeping of weapons whatsoever?

MR MAZIBUKO: No.

ADV SANDI: Did you take part in conducting acts of surveillance to try and follow the movements of certain members of the IFP so that they could be attacked?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I was never involved.

ADV SANDI: Did you at stage point out any target or person to be attacked by the SDUs?

MR MAZIBUKO: No.

...(end of tape)

ADV SANDI: As to attack where and when?

MR MAZIBUKO: I've already told you I've never been to a meeting.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Mazibuko, can I just go back to the attack at Mhlongo Street, whose house was that?

MR MAZIBUKO: It was Mr Soko's house.

ADV GCABASHE: ...(inaudible)

MR MAZIBUKO: ...(no English translation)

ADV GCABASHE: Spelt: S-O-G-O?

MR MAZIBUKO: S-O-K-O.

ADV GCABASHE: Now did Stambu - let me start with this, Stambu essentially was leading the group of four on this particular attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is so.

ADV GCABASHE: Did he tell you why you were targeting Mazibuko?

MR MAZIBUKO: Because Mazibuko was a member of Inkatha and he was coercing members of the community into joining his particular organisation.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you know this Mr Mazibuko?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I did know him as a tenant at Mr Soko's house.

ADV GCABASHE: And were you aware that he was an IFP member and that he was involved in forcing people to join the IFP?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct, I did.

ADV GCABASHE: How many people were in that house, do you know, when you got there?

MR MAZIBUKO: I wouldn't know because we did this towards dawn.

ADV GCABASHE: The person who opened the door was Mazibuko himself?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And he is the only person who was killed in that incident?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct, we wanted him specifically.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Mr Mazibuko. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Mr Mazibuko, can I just pick up on the questions that Advocate Sandi had asked you, which is again important for our purposes.

The application form also refers to the fact that you were involved in defensive actions in respect of other sections in Thokoza, what is your comment on that?

MR MAZIBUKO: Could you repeat the question please?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly. The application form which is here before us says that you were also involved in defensive actions of other sections of Thokoza, now what is your comment on that part of the application?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us some details about that, which sections you helped to defend first of all?

MR MAZIBUKO: It was the Slovo section.

CHAIRPERSON: And how did you help to defend the Slovo section, what were you doing?

MR MAZIBUKO: We went there to base. We kept a lookout for Inkatha members so that they couldn't advance and attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you involved in any fighting with Inkatha in the Slovo section?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, we did not get involved in any fight.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you armed when you based in Slovo section?

MR MAZIBUKO: I had a petrol bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever use that petrol bomb?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I never did.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other SDU members that were with you, were some of them armed with firearms?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is so. Two of them were armed.

CHAIRPERSON: With AK47s?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, they had pistols.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they members of your SDU in Lusaka-B?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And did those two pistols belong to the SDU?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Did your commander used to hand out the pistols if you have to go and do something?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that is not so.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where those pistols came from?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I had no idea.

CHAIRPERSON: And that AK47 that Stambu had?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us about that.

MR MAZIBUKO: He told me that it had been given to him by the late Makasonke Mhlope, who was a commander then.

CHAIRPERSON: Now just in regard to that incident, did you understand that that was an order that was given for your group to go and attack Mr Mazibuko?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination, Ms Nhlayisi?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chair, I've got one question.

Mr Mazibuko, when you were asked whose house it was that you attacked that particular day where this Mr Mazibuko was killed, you said the house belonged to one, Soko, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you remember that when we consulted yesterday you gave an explanation that this Mazibuko that you attacked was a lodger at Sibusiso Coka's parental house?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is so.

MS NHLAYISI: Were you mistaken earlier today when you were asked and you said it Soko instead of Coka?

MR MAZIBUKO: Could you please repeat your question?

MS NHLAYISI: I'm saying earlier today you were asked whose house it was, you said it was Soko's house but yesterday you said it's Coka's house, were you mistaken this morning when you said it's Soko's house?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, it is so.

MS NHLAYISI: So this person lived at your fellow comrades parental home, that Sibusiso Coka's house, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Won't you just give us the

spelling of that surname, Ms Nhlayisi.

MS NHLAYISI: The surname is spelt C-O-K-A.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

ADV GCABASHE: On that point, did Sibusiso Coka tell you about Mazibuko living at his house or was that common knowledge anyway?

MR MAZIBUKO: Could you repeat your question please?

ADV GCABASHE: Did Sibusiso tell you about that tenant, Mazibuko, or did everybody know that this Mazibuko lived at Sibusiso's parental home?

MR MAZIBUKO: We knew as members of the community that he lived there.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazibuko, thank you very much, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the tea adjournment at this stage.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Nhlayisi, which is the next matter?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, excuse me, I have more information on, if it's ...(indistinct). I've spoken to Mr Mazibuko, that was the previous applicant who testified about the attack on the house of Mr Mazibuko. Now we've traced Mr Richard Mazibuko who was actually at the time of the incident inside the house. The other Mr Mazibuko who was killed was actually his brother, Mr Infren Mazibuko. I'll just spell the name: I-N-F-R-E-N, Mr Infren Mazibuko.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I-N-F-R-E-N, Mazibuko. He was killed. The Mr Richard Mazibuko that was here was actually seriously injured. The other person that was killed in the house was this Mr Richard Mazibuko's daughter, Nkosana Mazibuko. Sorry, it's a little boy, Mr Nkosana Mazibuko. At the time of the incident he was one year and six months old, at the time of the attack. Mr Richard Mazibuko's wife, Anna Mazibuko was also killed at the time of the incident, she was inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ADV STEENKAMP: Anna Mazibuko.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ADV STEENKAMP: She was also killed in this incident. So there were three people killed and Mr Richard Mazibuko was injured. He says at the time of the incident he was not a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party. He however stayed in the Zulu section.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ADV STEENKAMP: I can't hear. The person that was killed was the brother of Mr Richard Mazibuko, who is here today.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you complete just putting all of that on record, Advocate Steenkamp. You were saying that Richard Mazibuko says he's not an IFP member and what else?

ADV STEENKAMP: But he stayed in the Zulu section. According to him, Mr Chairman, there were five in the attack. He can't identify them but as far as his knowledge serves him there were five people who attacked the house, not four.

He says he doesn't want to testify at all. He feels that the normal course of the law must take its course and the applicants must be prosecuted for their deeds. On the other hand he is not opposing the application.

I can just state on record that he also says that he has forgiven the applicants for what they've done to his family, and in the spirit of reconciliation he will forgive them.

He has asked me to put on record that his prepared to meet the applicants as well as their co-ordinator or leader, Mr Duma Nkosi. A meeting has been scheduled between Mr Duma Nkosi, the applicants and their legal team.

The last thing. There is only one concern he has Mr Chairman, and that is he still fears his safety where he is actually staying now. From my side I've instructed the police to patrol his house for the next few days. Mr Duma Nkosi has indicated that they will also assist in this problem. That is all I want to put on record, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now Advocate Steenkamp, this obviously introduces another angle into this matter and what you have placed on record seems to differ, and if it doesn't differ then it seems to add aspects of this incident which this particular applicant, the previous applicant, Mr Mazibuko has not referred to.

Although there is no evidence before us, and it is just the circumstances that you have placed on record here, would it not be appropriate that this ought to be put to the applicant and for the applicant to deal with this so that we have a complete picture?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, that was actually my second request, that there is no specific reason why I've put this on record now. The reason is, Mr Mazibuko

was present here this morning, but due to circumstances I think he left the hearing and I couldn't speak to him at all. The reason being that he wasn't actually feeling very comfortable to be in the hall here this morning. That was actually the reason.

I met him again just during the break, just before he left. But I agree full heatedly, I think it's just fair to the previous applicant to put Mr Mazibuko's version to the applicant. There will probably be two or three questions, Mr Chairman. If that could be allowed. I've tried to convince, and I've spoken to Mr Mazibuko about his testimony and probably a sworn statement but he is of the opinion that he doesn't want to take that avenue at all.

MS NHLAYISI: Mr Chair, may I say something before you proceed? There's something that I'd like to clarify before you proceed.

The previous applicant has mentioned that they made an attack on somebody by the name of Mazibuko, but there is another applicant who is going to come at a later stage with an incident that relates to another family of Mazibuko. I think this is the incident that my colleague is referring to, wherein one, Anna and the child were involved.

It's not the incident that the previous applicant has mentioned. That incident that's mentioned by my colleague is going to be mentioned by one, Sibusiso Coka, who was involved in that particular incident. So there are two Mazibuko families that were involved in these incidents.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I'm very sorry that I've caused a concern, and the difficulty is in the information but even Mr Mazibuko was of the opinion that it was the same incident, but we will take is it is, Sir, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: So you say that Mr Richard Mazibuko was present here earlier but that he had left, he's not longer here?

ADV STEENKAMP: No, he's available, Mr Chairman, he is available now. I told him to be available. He will be staying here for the meeting that is scheduled for

1 o'clock. He is available now.

ADV SANDI: Mr Steenkamp, did Mr Richard Mazibuko tell you the address because I thought the previous witness said the address of the house that was attacked was House number 1251? Are we talking about the same house?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, probably not. I didn't get his full address but that can be taken. He was of the opinion that the Mr Mazibuko that was attacked was probably his brother, but he didn't have any information. He says it was dark and he didn't know they were. When he heard the testimony he was of the opinion it was the same incident, but probably it was not. I'm sure that can be sorted out.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we would obviously like to hear the other application that Ms Nhlayisi is talking about so that we have a better idea of what this is all about.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We suggest that you - if Mr Richard Mazibuko is available, that you clarify this thing with him about this address and hear whether he is possibly mistaken and mistakenly assumed that what the applicant, Mazibuko was referring to was the death of his brother, his late brother Infren Mazibuko, and that might be something else.

I want to suggest that you clarify that so that we can deal with this thing whilst Mr Richard Mazibuko is still available, so that whatever must be put to applicants are put to them and whatever evidence we should take in respect of a particular incident, is taken when the people who can shed light on that are available to do so.

So bear that in mind. We will listen to the next application in the meantime.

MS NHLAYISI: In the circumstances, Mr Chairman, I would request that this particular applicant should stand down and then I'll call Sibusiso Coka, who has an incident that relates to a Mazibuko family, so that we can do that before Mr Mazibuko leaves. If that is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in fact that does make good sense. Yes, so won't you call that matter and we see where we go to.

MS NHLAYISI: The next applicant will be Saki Sibusiso Coka. His application appears on page 24, Lusaka-B bundle, application AM 7059/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I assume that Mr Richard Mazibuko will be listening to the testimony that will be led now?

ADV STEENKAMP: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Nhlayisi, can we proceed?

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coka, do you hear?

MR COKA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you please stand and give your full names for the record?

PATRICK SIBUSISO COKA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Ms Nhlayisi?

EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI: As the Chair pleases.

Mr Coka, you were a member of the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-B, Thokoza, is that correct?

MR COKA: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: When did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR COKA: In 1993.

MS NHLAYISI: You are here today to bring an application for amnesty for your activities as a member of the Self Defence Unit, is that correct?

MR COKA: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you have any specific incidents in mind that you'd like to bring to the attention of this forum, for which you'd like to be granted amnesty?

MR COKA: Yes, I do.

MS NHLAYISI: Would you go on and mention those?

MR COKA: One day there was a house, number 1248, Mgivani Street. There were IFP members there ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) please won't you repeat that? Interpreter, just give us that address and that name again please.

INTERPRETER: House number 1248, Mgivani Street.

ADV GCABASHE: Section?

MR COKA: Lusaka-B.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed.

MS NHLAYISI: You say that you had information that at this house number 1248 Mgivani Street, Lusaka-B, there were members of the Inkatha Freedom Party, is that correct?

MR COKA: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: So when you went there, what was the purpose, what did you want to go and do there?

MR COKA: We went there to attack and kill.

MS NHLAYISI: Who gave the instructions that you should go and launch an attack at this particular house?

MR COKA: Our commander, Makasonke Mhlope gave us the instruction.

MS NHLAYISI: You yourself, were you armed on this particular day?

MR COKA: No, I was unarmed.

MS NHLAYISI: How many members of your unit were there who participated in this attack?

MR COKA: Will you please repeat the question?

MS NHLAYISI: How many were you who participated in this particular attack on this house in Mgivani Street?

MR COKA: It was a lot of us.

MS NHLAYISI: How many were in possession of weapons?

MR COKA: The only people that I saw clearly were only three people.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you know who were those who were in possession of weapons?

MR COKA: Yes, I can still remember the others.

MS NHLAYISI: Please mention them.

MR COKA: It was Stambu, Muzi and Siphiwe. They were armed with AK47s.

MS NHLAYISI: What happened at your arrival at this particular house? Just give details.

MR COKA: When we arrived there myself and Makasonke were in front. We were actually - we wanted to check if there were no police, and the others were following us with arms.

We went through the backyard of the house. There were people who were safeguarding the other comrades. We went through the front because we were there to look for anything that might come and disturb, things like the Stability Unit and the police.

They were left at the backyard and they went to knock at the door of the house number 1248, Mgivani Street. They went into the house and they shot, they fired ...(intervention)

MS NHLAYISI: Before you proceed, Mr Coka, do you know perhaps how many people entered this house? Because you said you remained outside and some entered, do you have an idea how many got into the house?

MR COKA: I could not see the number of people who went into the house but it was a lot of people.

MS NHLAYISI: You may proceed. What happened after they entered the house?

MR COKA: As we were standing outside we could not see what was happening in the house but we heard gunshots inside the house.

The soldiers came through Mgivani Street, South African Defence Force. When the Casspir approached we saw it and we told the others who were armed to run away. That's when we left the place.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you have any information as to what actually happened inside that house, as to whether any people were killed or injured in this particular attack?

MR COKA: I heard the following morning that the people were injured. Yes, I heard the gunshots.

MS NHLAYISI: Did anybody die in this attack?

MR COKA: Yes, some people died there.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you have any information as to who those people are who died? Firstly, how many people did you get information about that died in this particular incident?

MR COKA: Two people died there.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you know their names?

MR COKA: Yes, I know their names.

MS NHLAYISI: Please mention those names.

MR COKA: It was Anna Ndlalosi and Notuku Ndlalosi.

CHAIRPERSON: What is that second name, Anna and who?

MR COKA: Notuku.

ADV SANDI: Tuku or Notuku?

MS NHLAYISI: Just spell the name.

MR COKA: Tuku.

MS NHLAYISI: Is it T-U ...

MR COKA: T-U-K-U.

MS NHLAYISI: Where did you get this information that these are the people who died in this attack?

MR COKA: I heard the people in the community talking about it and I also went there to see.

MS NHLAYISI: Are you certain that their surname is Ndlalosi or are you just guessing, that Anna's surname was Ndlalosi or you may be mistaken about this surname?

MR COKA: These people were my relatives. Anna was married to the Ndlalosi family.

MS NHLAYISI: Are you saying you were related to the deceased, that is Anna Ndlalosi?

MR COKA: Yes, we were relatives.

MS NHLAYISI: How are you related to her?

MR COKA: My mother is from - my mother's surname is Ndlalosi.

MS NHLAYISI: Did you personally have anything to do with giving out information to your comrades about these people in this house being IFP members?

MR COKA: Will you please repeat that question?

MS NHLAYISI: My question is, because you were related to this family and you're now alleging that they were IFP members that's why they were attacked, did you pass on this information to your comrades, that you know that those people because they're relatives, you have information that they are IFP members and that is why this particular attack was launched?

MR COKA: No, everyone knew that those people belonged to IFP.

MS NHLAYISI: There is information before this forum that a certain Mr Mazibuko has come up to say the people who died in this attack are his family, do you know anybody by the name of Mazibuko who is related to the deceased?

MR COKA: Yes, I do know that person.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you know who he is related to them?

MR COKA: Yes, I know.

MS NHLAYISI: Could you please specify?

MR COKA: This Mazibuko is the son-in-law, is Ndlalosi's son-in-law.

MS NHLAYISI: So on the night of this particular attack, when you went to this house in Mgivani Street you knew exactly that an attack was going to be launched and that people were going to be killed, is that correct?

MR COKA: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Though you yourself didn't have a firearm in your possession, but you were in agreement with what your fellow comrades were doing or were going to do at this particular house, is that correct?

MR COKA: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: And you assisted them by maybe keeping watch as to whether police were coming and further that there was going to be no disturbance in their way when they were executing the attack, is that correct?

MR COKA: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: There's another incident that has been mentioned by the previous applicant, that is Jeremiah Velaphi Mazibuko. He mentioned that this particular incident occurred at your parental place. There was a tenant by the name of Mazibuko at your parental place, and he was attacked and he was killed, did you have anything to do with this particular attack at Mazibuko?

MR COKA: No.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you know whether this particular Mr Mazibuko was killed at you parental place, he's in any way related or associated with the Mazibuko family that was killed at Mgivani Street?

MR COKA: No, I don't know whether they were related or not.

MS NHLAYISI: You've never seen them together or associating in the past? You cannot rule out the possibility maybe that they are related or they are not?

MR COKA: I'll never know but I used to see them together.

ADV GCABASHE: You used to see who together?

MR COKA: The other Mazibuko, the one from Mgivani Street.

MS NHLAYISI: You say the Mazibuko who was killed at your parental place and the Mazibuko who's related to the deceased who were killed at Mgivani Street, you have at certain times seen them together and for that reason you cannot rule out the possibility that they are related, is that what you are saying?

MR COKA: Yes.

MS NHLAYISI: Did you at any stage give information to your fellow comrades about this Mazibuko who was residing at your parental place, that he was an IFP member and that he should be executed?

MR COKA: No, I did not tell them.

MS NHLAYISI: Were you in any way directly or indirectly involved in planning this particular attack on Mr Mazibuko?

MR COKA: No, I was not present.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you have information with you that on that particular night he was going to be attacked?

MR COKA: No.

MS NHLAYISI: So you were never informed about this particular attack?

MR COKA: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Sir, except the incident that took place 1248 Mgivani Street, Lusaka-B, do you have any other incident that you'd like to bring to the attention of this forum?

MR COKA: No, nothing else besides the fact that I was patrolling and I was armed with a firearm.

MS NHLAYISI: You said you joined the SDU in 1993, is that correct?

MR COKA: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: You have on a number of occasions carried a firearm and patrolled the streets?

MR COKA: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: You associated yourself fully with whatever activities that were carried out by your fellow comrades at the time you were a member, is that correct?

MR COKA: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: So you are now bringing an application to be granted amnesty relating to the incident that took place at Mgivani Street where two people died, and the fact that at some stages when you were still a member of the SDU you carried an unlicensed firearm and you were in possession of ammunition, and for any other activities wherein you were associated by being a member of the SDU, is that correct?

MR COKA: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chair, at this stage I have nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Advocate Steenkamp, I'm not sure whether the position is any clearer than it was earlier. Are you in a position to put questions to this witness or do you need to speak to Mr Richard Mazibuko?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, thanks for your indulgence. The position is the following: I'm informed that Mr Mazibuko had left again and he doesn't want to be part of this process anymore. We are still unable to confirm his address as it was at that stage of the incident.

I'm also informed that Mr Richard Mazibuko or his family owned a number of houses in the area, not only one house, a number of houses.

I would suggest if I may, with respect, suggest that I don't put any further questions to this witness and if I'm in the position to get more confirmed information, even a sworn statement to this effect, I would immediately inform you what the position is and whether or not it is still viable or necessary to put any further questions to this witness from my side, representing the specific victim.

Unfortunately that does not take us any further, Mr Chairman, but I would suggest that is probably the only way forward with this matter. In the event of tracing Mr Mazibuko, we would definitely inform you. At this moment like I said, it's unfortunate I'm informed that he left and I was also informed that apparently some of the family members will also be present here during the hearing but we haven't been able to trace any of them so far.

The specific address, Mr Chairman, of Mr, or one of these houses could not be confirmed in this time period. That is the suggestion I make, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well that is not a very satisfactory situation. What is happening with this meeting that was envisaged for lunchtime, between Mr Richard Mazibuko and whichever of the applicants?

MR COKA: I'm sorry Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I'm informed that Mr Mazibuko has abandoned that suggestion, he is not interested in that anymore and apparently his feedback via the people who are assisting me is that that issue of reconciliation or meeting the applicants, will be dealt with by the senior members of his family, but he personally is not interested in that anymore. He doesn't want to meet the applicants and he unfortunately just left, Mr Chairman.

I know it's very unsatisfactory but at this stage there is nothing we can do to assist. I can just say that we have tried our level best by facilitating this and by inviting the attorneys as well, and other members here as well but I was informed now that he is not interested in this option anymore or being directly involved in the process or even testifying as it stands.

So basically, Mr Chairman, what I placed on record was only what, the information that was related to me by Mr Mazibuko. It's clear that as the information was related to me, I'm definitely not sure it relates at all to this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard Mazibuko hasn't withdrawn the information that he has conveyed to you?

ADV STEENKAMP: No, Mr Chairman, I'm in the process of trying to establish that as well. Probably lunchtime, if you would allow me, Mr Chairman, probably by 1 o'clock I will know what the position is and I will inform you. If he has withdrawn that I will draw the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well we will have to decide what we do with this application as well as the previous one, in the sense of whether it is necessary to put any of this information to them to respond to.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, under the circumstances I would suggest that maybe we will take an early lunch and say adjourn until half past one and start maybe, proceed with the hearing at say half past one so that I can sort this out in the meantime, so you don't have to be in a position to make a decision as yet. I think it's quite urgent that the information must be confirmed one way or the other, which means we will not be losing any time as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't want to jump from one application to the next. Up to the point when we reconvened after tea, for all intents and purposes from our perspective, the application of applicant, Mazibuko who testified before Mr Coka, was dealt with and was finalised.

The roll was going to proceed as it was originally planned but then this applicant, Mr Coka, was interposed in order to address this question that had arisen. So I would like to see that this application and if necessary, the application of Mr Mazibuko, the applicant, are finalised before we proceed to anything else.

So I would very much want you to take the steps to ascertain whether or not we should take any cognisance of the facts that you had placed on record, which of course we can't just ignore at this stage. So we would like to hear quite unequivocally from you exactly what the position is on that, whether that information that was placed on record stands or not because if it stands then we will have to decide how we will deal with the applications of Mr Mazibuko and Mr Coka. So I want to suggest that you do that.

It's quarter to one and I was going to adjourn but I think Advocate Gcabashe wants to put something or raise something so that when you come back we have got the full picture.

ADV GCABASHE: No, it's simply to ask you to check how far Mgivani Street might be from Mhlongo Street because applicant Mazibuko is talking about an incident at Mhlongo Street, this applicant is talking about an incident at Mgivani Street. Just to ascertain whether these streets in close proximity or if we actually are talking about one and the same incident or not, just, we're talking about two totally different streets here. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Nhlayisi, I think you've heard the discussion, so we would appreciate your assisting in trying to clarify this situation. I think you yourself were under the impression that the incident that Mr Coka is testifying about is the one which Mr Richard Mazibuko was talking about, and it appears as if at least he one deceased, Anna, seems to be the same first name that was mentioned when Advocate Steenkamp was placing all that information on record. So perhaps you can be of some assistance to try and just clarify that.

MS NHLAYISI: I'll do my best.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We will adjourn at this stage for lunch. We're adjourned.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Steenkamp, have you managed to clarify the position regarding Mr Richard Mazibuko?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, we were not able to confirm any of the information given to us, we were not able to ascertain what the position with Mr Mazibuko is. My suggestion is that the statement on the record be withdrawn as it stands. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, I think the evidence-in-chief has been concluded, have you got any questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: I've no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the Panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Coka, when you went to launch this attack at House number 1248, what time of the day was this?

MR COKA: I don't remember the time, but it was during the night.

ADV SANDI: Were the lights burning at this house or was it dark?

MR COKA: It was dark.

ADV SANDI: Just for absolute clarity, the witness who testified before you, Jeremiah Velaphi Mazibuko, he was not one of your comrades when you went to attack House number 1248?

MR COKA: No, he wasn't, I didn't see him.

ADV SANDI: Now you've said this house was attacked because the people who lived there were members of the IFP, which one of them was a member of the IFP, everyone in that house was a member of the IFP?

MR COKA: All of them were members of Inkatha.

ADV SANDI: Did they take part in the attacks on ANC people?

MR COKA: We knew because they used to attend rallies as well as Inkatha meetings, adorned with the red T-shirts and the red bandannas associated with Inkatha members.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Coka. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Coka, just to go back to the people who had firearms when you arrived at House number 1248, it was Stambu, Muzi, and I wrote Steve here, who was the third person?

MR COKA: It's Siphiwe.

ADV GCABASHE: I thought I got that wrong, okay. The next area, you do say that there were a lot of you, now a lot could be six, a lot could be 15, can you give us a rough idea as to what you mean by a lot of us were there? Are you talking 30, are you talking 50? Just give us a vague idea, you don't have to be accurate.

MR COKA: We could have been plus minus 40, 30 to 40.

ADV GCABASHE: Then you later gave evidence to say that you got the information about Anna and Tuku being killed from the community, do you remember saying that?

MR COKA: Yes, I do.

ADV GCABASHE: You went on to say: "I also went there to see", do you remember saying that?

MR COKA: I do.

ADV GCABASHE: Just explain that to me. You went back that same night, you went there the next day? Just explain what you mean by that.

MR COKA: I went there on the following day, that is the following morning.

ADV GCABASHE: Now you went there and stood outside or did you go into the house and talk to people? Just explain the circumstances surrounding your going there. Did they see you, did they talk to you? Just explain that to me.

MR COKA: When we got there there were police already who had come to pick up the bodies of the dead people.

ADV GCABASHE: So you just stood outside and observed this and talked to the people in the surrounds and then went away, essentially?

MR COKA: Yes, that is correct, we stood and observed as they were taking away the bodies and we thereafter left.

ADV GCABASHE: Now Mhlongo and Mgivani Street are both in Lusaka-B in that same area?

MR COKA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Can you tell me the distance between the two, are they quite close, is the one very far from the other? I don't know, can you help me with that?

MR COKA: As you come through Mgivani, just as you take the curve you come across Mgivani (sic).

MR FREDERICH: Just for my own understanding of your evidence, number 1248 Mgivani Street would be quite close to your home, 1251 Mhlongo Street?

MR COKA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Would it in fact be about three houses away from your house, 1248? Just to give me an idea.

MR COKA: It could be one house.

ADV GCABASHE: Just explain that to me. One large plot given different numbers or different houses on one plot with numbers? Just explain that to me. It could be one place?

MR COKA: Do you mean from 1248 to 1251?

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, I do.

MR COKA: 1248 is the second houses divided by a corner house and then thereafter as you curve, it's 1251. It's only one house that divides the two houses, 1248 and 1251.

ADV GCABASHE: Now all these houses are owned by different people, your family doesn't own all these houses for instance, just as an example?

MR COKA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: 1248 is the Mazibuko home, 1248 Mgivani, where the attack took place that you were involved in?

MR COKA: No, that is not Mazibuko's place.

ADV GCABASHE: I'm trying to read my notes, it's easier if I ask you. Whose home is that, 1248 Mgivani? That's where your attack took place.

MR COKA: I know the people, I can identify them but I do not know their surnames. The lady who stayed there was married to Mazibuko family.

ADV GCABASHE: But the lady who was killed, was she a tenant or was she married to the owner of that house?

MR COKA: That lady who died, I think it was her sister's house.

ADV GCABASHE: Now because you were related to the Ndlalosi's and because Anna Ndlalosi lived in that house, did your commander or Stambu come to you at all to verify that empeleni(?), your relatives are involved with the IFP, or did that discussion not take place at all?

MR COKA: No, we did not discuss anything of that nature, they just said to me we are going to the place.

ADV GCABASHE: When you went to number 1248 Mgivani Street, were you told who the specific targets were? Did they tell you: "We must make sure so and so is killed", and so and so and so and so?

MR COKA: We were to attack all the people who were staying there.

ADV GCABASHE: Even its children?

MR COKA: It was not specified.

ADV GCABASHE: You used to patrol - this is the other area that you have discussed in your evidence, during these patrols, were you involved as some of your other comrades, in confiscating firearms from gangsters or what activities were you involved in in those patrols?

MR COKA: When patrolling we would monitor the area from Lusaka to Slovo at Buthelezi and we would look out for the IFP members in order to shoot them.

ADV GCABASHE: But you had no occasion to shoot them during any one of the patrols that you were involved in?

MR COKA: No, because they sometimes did not show up.

ADV GCABASHE: And do I understand you to say that though you carried a firearm, you have never used it, is that correct?

MR COKA: That is correct, I had not used it because during these patrols we would share these firearms.

ADV GCABASHE: We have heard evidence of major incidents at Mshayazafe, at Penduka, and from my understanding of the evidence quite a lot of SDU people were involved in those incidents, you were not involved in any of those incidents at all?

MR COKA: No.

ADV GCABASHE: We have also heard of conflicts and clashes with the Internal Stability Unit on various occasions, where shots would be fired both ways, you have never been involved in any of those incidents, either directly or indirectly?

MR COKA: No.

ADV GCABASHE: We also know about people leaving their houses because they were afraid, IFP people leaving their houses in an ANC dominated area because they were afraid, and ANC people leaving the IFP dominated area because they were afraid, you were never involved in any of those activities that are just generally called, I'll call them relocation activities, no participation at all?

MR COKA: No, I was not involved.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you very much, Mr Coka. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coka, the incident at 1248 Mgivani Street, on what date did that happen?

MR COKA: I cannot recall the date, I just remember the year.

CHAIRPERSON: In which year did it happen?

MR COKA: It was in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the deceased, Anna Ndlalosi, was that surname a married surname?

MR COKA: That was her maiden surname.

CHAIRPERSON: And the second victim Tuku Ndlalosi, just tell us is this a male or a female firstly?

MR COKA: It's a female.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she an adult or a child or what?

MR COKA: It was a youth around the age of 16/17.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you said that the owner of the house, the lady of the house was Anna's sister.

MR COKA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that lady, Anna's sister, to which family was she married?

MR COKA: I do not quite recall the surname.

CHAIRPERSON: The surname is not Mazibuku, is it?

MR COKA: No, I have no idea.

CHAIRPERSON: Those occupants that you referred to, are they still living at that place, at 1248 Mgivani Street?

MR COKA: No, they do not stay there anymore, they have sold the house to other people.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure that it was only these two people that were killed in this particular incident?

MR COKA: Yes, I'm quite sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Was anybody injured, according to either the information or what you had observed?

MR COKA: No, I did not see anybody get injured.

CHAIRPERSON: And are you saying that - or let me just ask you first, Anna Ndlalosi and Tuku, were they living in the house?

MR COKA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And are you saying that it was common knowledge that the occupants of the house were members or supporters of the IFP?

MR COKA: Yes, it was a well-known knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Was anybody arrested or charged in connection with this incident, according to your knowledge?

MR COKA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us the details about that please?

MR COKA: It so happened that in 1995 we got arrested for this very same Mgivani incident. It was myself and other young men from Sarajevo in Khatlehong and this case ended up at the Alberton Court, wherein it was dropped.

CHAIRPERSON: So was the case withdrawn in Court against you, is that what you are saying?

MR COKA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And was it only the two of you that were arrested and taken to Court in connection with this incident?

MR COKA: There were three of us.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can we just come to this other incident which apparently happened at your parental home, at number 1251, Mhlongo. What is the name of the person that was killed there?

MR COKA: I do not know his name, I only know the surname to be Mazibuko.

CHAIRPERSON: The name Infren, does that sound familiar at all to you, Infren Mazibuko?

MR COKA: No, I didn't know the name, we just referred to him as Mr Mazibuko.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this Mr Mazibuko an IFP member or supporter?

MR COKA: He was a member of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he to your knowledge, involved in recruiting people to join the IFP?

MR COKA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were saying that this Mr Mazibuko, he is the son-in-law of the people at 1248 Mgivani, if I understood your evidence correctly, now is that right or what?

MR COKA: I don't know which Mazibuko you are referring to, are you referring to the one who stayed at my parents' home or the one who was here just now?

CHAIRPERSON: I was trying to give you the impression which I had, which could be totally wrong. I'll rather ask you a pointed question, the Mazibuko who stayed at your parental home, was that Mazibuko related in any way to the people who lived at 1248 Mgivani?

MR COKA: No, I have no knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in this incident where Mr Mazibuko was killed, was he the only one that died in that particular incident?

MR COKA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can I just come back to the previous thing, who is it that is the son-in-law of people who lived there, at 1248 Mgivani?

MR COKA: It was Ben Mazibuko, the one who was here.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we were informed that the person who was here at the hearings is called Richard Mazibuko, now is he the same person as Ben?

MR COKA: That is correct, we used to call him Ben or Mazambane.

CHAIRPERSON: Now are you aware of any incident where family members of Ben Mazibuko were killed?

MR COKA: Would you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware of any incident, and let me perhaps be more specific here, in which a brother or Ben Mazibuko and two other people, a young child, a toddler and an adult lady by the name of Anna were killed?

MR COKA: No, I bear no knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Coka. Ms Nhlayisi, is there any re-examination?

MS NHLAYISI: No re-examination, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Coka, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS NHLAYISI: The next applicant will be Patrick Mpegelele Mzikhali. His application appears on page 72, Lusaka-B bundle. It is application number AM 7313/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mzikhali, do you hear me?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, I can hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you please stand and give your full names for the record?

PATRICK MPEGELELE MZIKHALI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Ms Nhlayisi?

EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chair.

Mr Mzikhali, you were at some stage a member of the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-B, Thokoza, is that correct?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: When did you join the SDUs?

MR MZIKHALI: In 1993.

MS NHLAYISI: Who was your commander at that stage?

MR MZIKHALI: It was Makasonke.

MS NHLAYISI: So you are appearing here today as an applicant and you are applying for amnesty for activities in which you were involved as a member of the Self Defence Unit, is that correct?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you have any specific incidents that you would wish to mention today, wherein you were involved and wherein violence involved against other people or where property was destroyed?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Would you mention those incidents?

MR MZIKHALI: It so happened one day in 1993 at Mbele Street, we saw a man who was an IFP member. I am saying he was an IFP member because he was harassing people in the township. I was walking past that street and I came across people beating him up and assaulting him and I joined in.

MS NHLAYISI: This incident that you are mentioning at Mbele Street, is it the same incident that was mentioned yesterday by the applicant, Wilfred Thabo Miya, where a person was stoned and later members of the ISU came and people fled? Is it the same incident or is it a different incident at all?

MR MZIKHALI: That's the same incident.

MS NHLAYISI: What was your actual involvement in this incident, did you participate in pelting this man with stones?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, I did partake of pelting him with stones.

MS NHLAYISI: There is evidence before this forum that apparently that person died at a later stage, apparently he was later necklaced and he died, do you know anything about his death or his subsequent necklacing and his death?

MR MZIKHALI: I have no knowledge about the necklacing part of it. When I came he was being pelted with stones and I joined in. We fled when the police arrived.

MS NHLAYISI: When you left the scene, was this person still alive?

MR MZIKHALI: I have no idea.

MS NHLAYISI: What was your observation, was he lying down, was he still fighting? What was happening at the time just before you left?

MR MZIKHALI: This man was not fighting, he was already lying down and when we came back after the police had left, he was now burning.

MS NHLAYISI: So you're saying he was lying down, you won't be in a position to tell whether he was already dead when you left, when the police came and you fled?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: You said you did come at a later stage and you found him burning, where were the police at that stage?

MR MZIKHALI: There were no police when we came back.

MS NHLAYISI: Is there any other incident that you wish to mention, except this one at Mbele?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Which other incident were you involved in? People have mentioned several incidents like an incident at Mshayazafe, an incident which involved a person from Inkantla, were you present in all these incident or some of them? Just mention which ones you took part in.

MR MZIKHALI: I was involved in this incident that involved the person from Inkantla. He had come from the Bhiyafuti hostel. One other incident involves the one person who had come from Inkantla. He was coming from Madala hostel, headed for Kweseni.

MS NHLAYISI: What was your involvement with this incident? What was your involvement with this particular incident, with this person who came, who said he came from Inkantla? How did you participate?

MR MZIKHALI: He was coming from Tshabalala Street. We were standing at Mgivani Street corner and he approached us and told us he was from the hostel, he is looking for Kweseni. We offered to show him.

When we arrived at Everest some people came from Radebe whose identities we did not know, they hit him with a knopkierrie and he fell down and we started pelting him with stones.

MS NHLAYISI: Why did you pelt him with stones, what was wrong with this person?

MR MZIKHALI: We found a membership card of the IFP in his possession.

MS NHLAYISI: So when you got this membership card, you concluded that he was an IFP member and you considered him to be an enemy?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: When Thabo Miya testified about this incident yesterday, he mentioned that he was involved to a certain extent but when this person was attacked and stoned and subsequently killed, he was not there, were you with Thabo Miya on that day?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: But you were involved in stoning him, is that correct?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: There's evidence that he was subsequently killed, did you take part in killing him?

MR MZIKHALI: As I have already indicated, yes we did pelt him with stones. There was a car parked just nearby and we requested petrol and we poured it over his body and we set him alight.

MS NHLAYISI: Who requested petrol and who poured petrol over him, do you know?

MR MZIKHALI: These are the people from Radebe section, and as they were requesting the petrol I went for a container to syphon the petrol from the vehicle.

MS NHLAYISI: So you were involved up to the stage where he was petrol was poured over him, is that correct?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Is there anything else that you wish to add regarding this particular incident, something that you have not mentioned?

MR MZIKHALI: No, I cannot remember anything else.

MS NHLAYISI: As a member of the Self Defence Unit, were you involved in other activities, like patrolling the streets and so forth?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, I was involved occasionally.

MS NHLAYISI: Did you - in any of those incidents, were you in possession of an unlicensed firearm?

MR MZIKHALI: No.

MS NHLAYISI: You've never used a firearm as a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MZIKHALI: No.

MS NHLAYISI: What other activities did you take part in except patrolling the streets and these two specific incidents that you have no mentioned?

MR MZIKHALI: We also made sure that we did not have any shortage of any supplies at our bases.

MS NHLAYISI: Were you amongst those who were responsible for supplying food and other things at those bases where your comrades were staying?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: At all times when you were a member of the SDU, you aligned yourself with whatever was done by your fellow comrades?

MR MZIKHALI: No.

MS NHLAYISI: Did you understand the question? When you were a member of the SDUs and your comrades were launching attacks or were defending your community, were you in agreement with what they were doing?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: So your application today is for the incident of that person who was killed at Mbele Street, the incident that involved this other person whose name you do not know, who came from Inkantla, and whatever other activities that you were directly or indirectly involved in as a member of the Self Defence Unit, is that correct?

MR MZIKHALI: Would you please repeat?

MS NHLAYISI: You are applying to be granted amnesty for your involvement in stoning the person at Mbele Street, because that person subsequently died and the second incident that involves this man who came from Inkantla, and whatever other activities wherein you were directly or indirectly involved as a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Ms Nhlayisi, surely there will have to be some form of positive conduct on his part? Merely to agree with what the SDUs were doing cannot constitute an offence, can it?

MS NHLAYISI: I agree with you but in other instances you'd find a person commits by omission, maybe by knowing that something is going to be committed and he omits to take positive steps maybe to rectify that. It's ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: But he has not given any evidence in that direction, has he?

MS NHLAYISI: I may lead him regarding that but I would submit that maybe it's covered in the sense that when he said he knew the activities of his fellow comrades and he knew what they were doing and what they were involved in, and he was in full agreement with what was happening and that indirectly involves him. I don't know whether you wish me to lead evidence regarding that point.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think do that. You should endeavour to place whatever is available in terms of evidence before us because this is obviously an important point. It will be argued later on but it's important to at least lay the evidential foundation for that. So you know, this question of mere membership of the SDU under the circumstances there and so on, is of course important.

So I think you don't need to argue it now, perhaps this is just an indication as to one of the issues that you will have to address, and your colleagues, when we conclude the testimony and we deal with argument, but I think lead as much as you can. Perhaps that goes for all the other applicants. We obviously you know, need to get as much on the record as is available, which can only assist us eventually in deciding all these applications.

MS NHLAYISI: As the Chair pleases.

Mr Mzikhali, the comrades in your area that have come before you have testified about several incidents wherein they were involved, is there any incident that they've mentioned wherein you were involved, maybe in planning such an incident or when discussions were held regarding any of the incidents that were mentioned by your comrades who came before you in this forum?

MR MZIKHALI: No.

MS NHLAYISI: So in all these other activities that you have not mentioned here, you were not involved in the planning thereof, you were not aware that they were going to be carried out, is that what you are saying?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, that is what I'm saying.

MS NHLAYISI: Is there any other incident that is not mentioned as yet, wherein you were involved in planning or assisting whoever was going to launch an attack or involved in any other way that you can remember?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, we used to have some occasion where we would come together and discuss what we should do and we would go ahead and do as agreed.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you have any such incident in mind that you'd like to mention, where you were part of the planning but you were not part of carrying out that particular activity?

MR MZIKHALI: Like for example the instance where we had to go to Penduka. They indicated to us that we so small and therefore we were not fit to go ...(intervention)

MS NHLAYISI: But you were involved in the discussion as to when they will go to Penduka and how they will launch an attack or defence, such things? You knew about them and you participated in such discussions?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: At this stage, Mr Chair, I have nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Nhlayisi. Questions, Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Sir.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: The Panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Mzikhali, this incident where a man from Inkantla was attacked, what time was this?

MR MZIKHALI: It happened in 1993.

ADV SANDI: Was it at night, in the morning, in the afternoon, what time?

MR MZIKHALI: It was round about three in the afternoon.

ADV SANDI: Did you also search that person?

MR MZIKHALI: No, it's only the people from Radebe who searched him.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Mzikhali, I'm just trying to get the incidents clear in my own head, the Mbele Street incident, that's where that man from the hostel had come back to the township to get his belongings from his shack, that is the incident, am I right?

MR MZIKHALI: Would you please repeat?

ADV GCABASHE: The Mbele Street incident, that was the IFP member who lived in the hostel but had a shack in Lusaka-B, and when he had come to collect his things from his shack he was stoned, am I right? That is the incident you are calling the Mbele Street incident?

MR MZIKHALI: No.

ADV GCABASHE: Now that's the incident that Thabo Miya calls the Mbele Street incident, and I couldn't quite distinguish, that incident from the Inkantla man incident. Now I realise that they are actually two separate incidents, please help me, go through the facts of the Mbele incident for me first, as you know them. Who was that man?

MR MZIKHALI: I didn't know his name, I just knew him to be called Mabotris.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, and where was he from and where was he going to, do you know at all?

MR MZIKHALI: Are you referring to the Inkantla man?

ADV GCABASHE: No, let's stay with the Mbele Street man. I realise your evidence is that you came across a group of people who were stoning this man and I'm just trying to find out if you know more than that, about this particular man. We have not yet started with the Inkantla person.

MR MZIKHALI: No, there's nothing I know to that effect.

ADV GCABASHE: So it's quite possible that that Mbele Street man is in fact the same one Thabo Miya gave evidence about, it's possible?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, that's the one.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you certain that that is the one or are you simply saying it is possible that that is the one?

MR MZIKHALI: No, this is no the one from Inkantla.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Mzikhali, forget Inkantla, I'm coming to Inkantla just now. Let's just stay with Mbele, the first one, Mbele Street. Let's just finish that one off. It's really just to try and remember. If you don't remember, you don't remember. I'm just trying to find out what you do remember about that particular man, that's all.

MR MZIKHALI: The questions are quite confusing because we have this Inkantla man and the Mbele Street incident, would you please explain to me clearly. I want to understand you very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mzikhali, in Mbele Street they killed Mabotris, is that right?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now Advocate Gcabashe is talking about the incident involving Mabotris, so just answer her questions about that incident first, leave the other one, just talk about Mabotris.

ADV GCABASHE: Who was he, where was he coming from, where was he going to?

MR MZIKHALI: He was a person, a tenant at Mbele Street and we so happened one day to see him coming from Penduka. He found us standing at a corner at Mgivani and he asked us what we were doing there and we just told him we're just standing there. He ordered us to go home and not get ourselves involved in things that would be difficult to handle.

ADV GCABASHE: And then, what happened after that?

MR MZIKHALI: We left and went home.

ADV GCABASHE: Continue.

MR MZIKHALI: It so happened one day that he was discussed and it was indicated that the people have knowledge that he was an IFP member because he was seen attending these meetings.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, and so, what did you then do?

MR MZIKHALI: On that very same day when we saw him being pelted with stones, that is when we joined in, after he was discussed.

ADV GCABASHE: And Thabo Miya was part of that group that was pelting him with stones?

MR MZIKHALI: Thabo Miya was in my company, as well as Cyril Khumalo. That is when we assisted the people who were assaulting him.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Now let's talk about the Inkantla man. I just want you to clarify those facts for me as well. You were there when the Inkantla man asked for directions to Kweseni, to the Kweseni industry?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, I was present.

ADV GCABASHE: And you were part of the group that said: "We'll show you where it is"?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: But in fact the group had no intention of showing him where Kweseni industry was, is that correct or incorrect?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Now at what stage did you see his IFP card?

MR MZIKHALI: We saw the card after he was assaulted by the boys or the men from Radebe.

ADV GCABASHE: What made you link him with the IFP before you saw that card, what facts or circumstances?

MR MZIKHALI: Would you please repeat the question?

ADV GCABASHE: Now the question is, what facts or what circumstances made you link that man with the IFP before you saw that card?

MR MZIKHALI: We asked him where he was going and we asked where his IFP card is and after showing it we would kill him because he was a member of the IFP.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you saying that the mere fact that he asked where the Kweseni industries were and that he was a stranger in the place, made you suspect that he was an IFP man?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just try and complete this one whilst Advocate Gcabashe is looking at the rest of the notes. Did this man have a letter with him?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, he had a letter with him but we didn't know its contents because we didn't have a look at it.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he tell you about the letter?

MR MZIKHALI: I didn't notice. I really didn't concern myself with that, there was a lot of noise.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what did you understand that letter to be all about?

MR MZIKHALI: I would not say because I didn't even know it existed.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you only hear about his letter after the incident?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now from what you understood from the subsequent discussions, was that letter also a cause for a suspicion that this person was linked to the IFP?

MR MZIKHALI: I wouldn't say that because I didn't know the contents of the letter.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, thank you. Advocate Gcabashe?

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.

Now it is only when you came across the people from Radebe section that he was physically assaulted, is that correct?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Who explained to the people from Radebe section about this man and who he was or who you thought he was?

MR MZIKHALI: The boys or the man from Radebe wanted to know his identity and we told him that this man was going to Kweseni and this man from Radebe started assaulting him with a knopkierrie and they searched him and located an IFP card in his pocket and started pelting him with stones.

ADV GCABASHE: Was there any particular person who was in command, if you could call it that, at the time, who told you what has to be done about this man?

MR MZIKHALI: No, it is something that just happened, we were walking him towards his destination.

ADV GCABASHE: So the decision to pour petrol on him was again just something that happened because a motor vehicle happened to be close by?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

ADV SANDI: Just to clarify one last point here.

Mr Mzikhali, am I correct to think that from what you have said, you would still have attacked this person even if you had not found this IFP card in his possession, and the letter?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct because we had already concluded that he was an IFP member. He was residing at an area where we did not go to, where we could not go to.

ADV SANDI: And when your group went to the vehicle and took out some petrol which you poured over his body, you were acting without an order from a commander, not so?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct, because the man from Radebe just took a decision and we followed suite.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but my understanding is that when you did that you were acting in accordance with a sentiment or spirit amongst yourselves, that IFP people should be attacked, am I correct?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Mzikhali. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Re-examination, Ms Nhlayisi?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chair, one question.

Let's go back to the incident at Mbele, you said that this person whom you know by the name of Mabotris, at some stage found you standing at the corner of Mgivani Street and he told you to go home and not to get involved in things that doesn't involve you, and at a later stage there was a discussion wherein it was decided that he must be dealt with. What I want to know from you is, were you part of the group that held this discussion that Mabotris must be dealt with?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, because it was a meeting.

MS NHLAYISI: So you knew before this day when you found him being stoned, that a resolution had been taken that he must be dealt with?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: What exactly was he going to be dealt with, what was decided in that meeting?

MR MZIKHALI: We always had to monitor him, like harassing the community.

MS NHLAYISI: How were you going to deal with him?

MR MZIKHALI: We just waited for him to say bad things like we should join the IFP.

MS NHLAYISI: Then is he does that, what were you going to do to him?

MR MZIKHALI: That's when we would confirm our suspicions that he a strong member of the IFP.

MS NHLAYISI: Again the same question, after you have confirmed by his actions that he is a member of the IFP, what did you intend to do to him, according to the discussion that was held?

MR MZIKHALI: He had to be killed.

MS NHLAYISI: So you were not surprised the day you found people attacking him at Mbele Street?

MR MZIKHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have nothing further.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mzikhali, do you recall any other specific meetings where you participated before discussions, before attacks were carried out?

MR MZIKHALI: Would you please repeat the question?

ADV SANDI: Are there any other discussions, are you able to remember if there are any specific discussions which took place where you participated, before any attack was carried out?

MR MZIKHALI: No.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When you joined in the attack on Mabotris, were you executing the decision that was taken at that meeting, that he should be killed?

MR MZIKHALI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mzikhali, thank you, you are excused.

MS NHLAYISI: Mr Chair, the next applicant will be on the Lusaka-A bundle, that is Lerato Collin Nteo, page 172.

CHAIRPERSON: Now Ms Nhlyaisi, how long is that evidence likely to take? I was going to adjourn these proceedings before three thirty this afternoon, it's now ten past three, now how long do you think it will take.

MS NHLAYISI: I suppose it will take more than 20 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give me the - what's it, page 172? Will he be referring to a number of incidents?

MS NHLAYISI: That's correct, it's about four specific incidents wherein he is directly involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Nhlayisi, I'm sorry, we are not going to be able to hear and deal with this matter fully and justify it in the time at our disposal. If that number of incidents then I'm not going to proceed to hear his application today.

We find it quite helpful if these incidents are dealt with as fully as possible because there are a number of incidents that have been referred to but many of them are common to these applicants, although sometimes they might refer to it by different names and so on.

So that is why it is necessary for us when we deal with these incidents, just to be 100% sure that we are not duplicating or misunderstanding what it's all about and I would really not want to do that. It might mean that we can lead his evidence-in-chief and then you know, deal with the rest of his testimony later on. I'd like to finish off these in one session.

So at this state I'm going to adjourn the proceedings, and if it is convenient we will then listen to the application tomorrow morning. We will adjourn until 9 o'clock or as soon after that as we can. We have had a bit of difficulty, hopefully the weather will improve in this part of the world, but the inclement weather has played havoc with our plans but we will endeavour to start at 9 o'clock tomorrow. We will adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

MS NHLAYISI: Before - because of other commitments I won't be hear tomorrow and I would request my colleague, Mr Sibeko, to proceed with this particular applicant and then proceed with his roll.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, was this going to be the last one that you would have done today?

MS NHLAYISI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, so long as Mr Sibeko is happy.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, there is just a request from my side. If I may ask the Chairman to ask the Correctional Services to bring those people who are in prison in time. They only arrived here this morning after ten, ten twenty and arrangements were made for them to be here basically at eight thirty for my colleagues to do the consultation. It caused us basically to lose two hours.

They are from the Groenpunt Prison, which is not so far. If I may ask. There is a question that they have actually asked me to ask you to make such a ruling, that they can indicate to the head of the prison that they must be here early. If that is possible, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: So would it assist is they are here at eight thirty?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, it would.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. For the purposes of the officials of Correctional Services, we have a number of people who are in custody who are applicants in these proceedings. We will come to their applications, I should imagine some time tomorrow, but in order for us to run the proceedings without any interruption and in order to enable the legal representatives to prepare properly for the applications of those people in custody, it is necessary to have them here at this venue at eight thirty tomorrow morning.

I according call upon the Correctional Services representatives here to ensure that all those people in custody are brought to the hall here tomorrow morning at eight thirty.

I'm informed that apparently they were a bit late this morning, perhaps it's understandable in a way, but will you please ensure tomorrow that they are here by eight thirty. The lawyers must still speak to them and it does disrupt the proceedings if they are not able or not allowed sufficient time to do that. So please will you attend to that?

We will then adjourn.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.